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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328046#Comment_3328046
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328305#Comment_3328305
And you want this to be even easier and possible on every killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328326#Comment_3328326
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328441#Comment_3328441
Applies to you too
I already answered to that video in another comment. Final conclusion: Survivors fault and lack of coordination. Even the survivor streamer said it explicitly in one moment of the video (something like "they left him 3 gens").
Watch it again, and observe the amount of times the last gen could have being done but doesn't because the streamer is alone repairing it. If I find the comment I did in the day where I get in more detail I would post it.
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So, what you want is literally a 4º health state for free on unhooking to punish killers for doing what they must do even more? Huh, this is new.
With survivors doing gens as fast as they are doing it now no, absolutely not. "Nerfing" the perfectly fine and allowed efficient way of getting rid of one survivor as soon as possible (when survivors allow you to do it... seriously, stop unhooking at 5 meters of the killer) would only encourage killers to just stick to 3 gens in a corner of the map and try to get the upper hand at the end even more. Chases are already long enough against good loopers and Off the Record provide 80 seconds of tunneling protection.
The funny thing is what they should do is nerf deep wound so it also goes down when you are running to make Endurance what it always should have been: A second chance aid and chase extender, not a pseudo 3º health state.
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So, you are complaining that you are matched with survivors that aren't skilled enough, but don't want an skilled based matchmaking...
Logic not found.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328305#Comment_3328305
If you want killer regression to be on par with survivor progression why would't a killer camp a 3 gen from the start?
Also saying that is avoiding the problem. You know 3 gens are problematic want to buff killer in ways that make that strat even better and then tell survivors to not 3 gen themselves.
Well, then come chase me and stop running back to the same 3 gens when the match has just started.
What he said is not avoiding the problem, is the truth. If you don't do alternate gens or detect that the killer is defending 3 gens and break them instead of letting him get an strong setup is on you. Again, if you are SoloQ equip PT with Situational Awareness and a toolbox and you would get more chances to get more people in the gen and do it so fast by the time the killer is going to hook someone the gen would be already done.
In fact, a visual example for you and our friend @bunnyfengenthusiast :
https://imgur.com/a/A44ySgd"Survivors just gifted a 3 man injure" to the killer, eh?
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327097#Comment_3327097
Ok, but also simple logic
If you buff the base numbers too much we have the 3 gen camping problem
Killers should get rewarded for hooks and ending chases quickly, giving killers rewards for progressing the game, like old POP.
Just buffing the base values makes for this boring scenarios we are facing with the COB+Overcharge+Eruption, also notice that this perks increase the base value of regression with no requirements.
The Killer shouldn't be able to match survivor progression, is simply bad for the game.
With no requirements? Having to lose time kicking the gen and not letting a survivor just tap it to stop the process + having to down someone before they complete the affected gen in case of Eruption is not enough requirement for you?
Either way, again, 300% regression is not that much even compared to basekit progression. And if you need to see how it looks like in real time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtF_5jH8wwAnd "being boring for survivors" is not a valid argument unless you are trying to say it is a killer obligation to provide survivors their "rightful fun" and should not play in the most efficient way to win.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327585#Comment_3327585
I've read this post 3 times, and I've had a very hard time trying to figure out what exactly you're trying to say here, but I see a lot of incorrect information so I'm gonna go ahead and correct you.
"100% efficiency" in terms of charges per second, but not in time, and more time in gens means more time to things to go south for survivors AKA good for the killer
What are you even trying to say here? Efficiency IS maximizing your time. It means the most gens get done in the least amount of time. 100% efficiency is, by definition, the shortest amount of time. That's the actual definition of efficiency.
(BTW, having 3 people on a gen won't be easier to pressure as the moment you start chasing one the other two would continue to repair it)
Yes, so you get the injure on the one person that you caught working on that gen (which should be very quick, seeing as they were likely stepping on each other trying to get away from it), and then turn right back around and go back to the other two, who are now in a compromised position again, and you get two separate injures on them. Survivors just gifted you a 3 man injure (16*2*3=96s seconds of aggregate slowdown, assuming no mangled or medkits). During this entire time, that's three people being pressured off gens. Now you take your pick on who you wanna down and you got yourself a free hook and 2 injured people and they got very little gen progress in return.
Not only that, but makes not only normal regression but instant regression less efficient.
No, it makes them neither more nor less efficient. Regression eats progress, either on the kick/hook, or over time. That progress has to be recollected, whether with prove or solo. You have a critical misunderstanding of the macro of the game, and how aggregate gen times function. Unless if one specific gen is part of your 3-gen (which is where Prove Thyself shines, by the way), survivors are objectively less efficient if they commit to one with PTS instead of splitting up on different ones.
3 survivors on one gen with PT finish that gen in 32.97 seconds at 2.73 c/s. A 53% instant regression with Eruption + Pain Res + Jolt + Pop are 47.7 charges. So, in that gen, the total time lost for survivors are only 17.47 seconds approx instead of the 47.7 that would take one survivor to get those charges. And this is comparing the worst case scenario of full instant regression perks build against only one survivor perk, without taking in count other perks that boost repair, great skill checks or toolboxes. So, more people in a gen, perks or not, would be always more time efficient.
Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how aggregate gen times function. Yeah, one person has to recollect the 47.7s of progress if they get hit by a 53% gen regression. And assuming 3 other people are on gens, their gens are completely unbothered and unpressured during this entire time, meaning the one person whose gen is being pressured can continue to harass it, forcing the killer to keep defending it, at which time the other three will get a 3-man get pop. As opposed to idiotically trying to overcommit to a single gen as a 4 man team, and getting pushed off over and over again (and possibly injured/downed) because you're trying to use PTS.
And the same concept applies to regression over time. But why even compare perk boosted regression against multiple survivors with PT when even against one without it, maxed out regression (in other words, CoB + OC, 175% to 300% with both active to 200% when CoB runs out) takes almost the double of time to fully regress a gen (160 seconds). A process one survivor can completely stop by slightly touching a gen for less than a second, by the way.
Yes, glad you can remember this time that COB+OC is 175% to 300%, instead of 275% to 400% like you were trying to argue that one time. If the survivor is touching the gen (which implies killer is in the area still), they're putting themselves in a compromised position going up to it, which means killer can secure an injure/pallet and only has to kick the gen again (and get another 2.5% of progress deletion, as well as reset COB timer).
So, even if I can agree that PT is not really the problem your arguments aren't valid points because even basekit progression speed is way too much compared with all the regression perks a killer can put in a build.
That's precisely because killer isn't supposed to be matching basekit progression speed. Killers are playing quad slowdown builds because the early game is so survivor sided that they have to fully overcommit to controlling a select few gens in the hopes of not losing the game against a coordinated swf. The issue here isn't that killer's max achievable regression will never match survivors' (it's not supposed to), it's that 7 gens are available early on, on maps of differing size, where 4 survivors can spawn on 4 separate gens.
What are you even trying to say here? Efficiency IS maximizing your time.
And what I'm saying is splitting 3 survivors to each gen is not as time efficient as doing it together in most cases. 5 gens with 1 survivor per gen would technically be 180 seconds (90 for 3, 90 for the other 2) and with 2 survivors on one gen and one in another would be... 180 (3 gens every 52.94s, 2 gens in 90s). What you are not taking in count is when those 2 survivors finish their 3 gens they still has 21.18 seconds left to go help the lonely survivor finish the last gen, so those 21.18 charges would be done in 10 seconds approx for a total of 170 approx (168.82s). So, your are right that is "less efficient" only if 2 or 3 survivors do all 5 gens together with only basekit c/s (214.3s with 3, 42.86s per gen).
But with PT the story changes, as 3 survivors would be able to do all 5 gens in 164.85 seconds. In the 2/1 scenario, the two survivor team would have 41.88 seconds free after finishing their 3 gens to go to the last, when the 3 would finish it 15.34 seconds for a total of 153.46 seconds for the 5 gens. So, splitting survivors on gens would almost never be as time efficient as doing them in groups of 2 survivors or more in most cases, more so if PT is used.
Not only that, but all of this is just if those survivors would do all the gens in succession without taking in count even walking time and with one of them out of the picture all the time. In a real situation the main factor here is the time survivors spent in one place where the killer can easily find them. One survivor on a gen would give 90 seconds for the killer to do what he is doing in that moment and come find him, kick the gen and chase him, making the gen lost real seconds per charge without the possibility of someone stopping it and even hook him and go to another gen to repeat the process. If 3 survivors with PT is doing that gen, and the killer is in a chase for example, most than probably that gen would be finish by the time he hook the chased survivor, with enough time to get the hell out of the gen and go somewhere else.
I don't know, I don't think it's so hard to understand.
Yes, so you get the injure on the one person that you caught working on that gen [...] and then turn right back around and go back to the other two. Survivors just gifted you a 3 man injure [...]
Because survivors are going to stand there letting you get them as soon as you can, of course. Tell me you don't play killer without telling me you don't play killer.
The reality of what would happen is you would start chasing one of them and the moment you turn your back on the gen the other two would continue to repair. Now you have 2 options: Commit to the chase of that one survivor until you at least hurt him while he is looping you and getting as far of that gen as possible and then come back, or drop the chase and come back after a short time. Whatever you do, by the time you come back to the gen those two other survivors would have keep progressing the gen. Start chasing one of the remaining two, and again, same lose/lose situation while the last survivor on the gen finish to repair it. And that if the injured survivor don't decide to come right behind you and help to finish it. And that is if you catch the first survivor in time to even come back, because as you already know 2 survivors do a full gen in 52.94 seconds with basekit progression and this gen was already progressed by 3 people, so depending on the progress done you maybe don't even have 10 seconds left.
And this happened to me. And I bet that every killer out there have lived this exact same situation in some point. Experienced survivors would gangbang that gen and won't let it go whatever you do, even less if the gen is almost done as then what they would do is not even try to escape, they will just get up to take the hit and avoid being grabbed, finish to repair the gen when you are in hit cooldown, and then start running.
The only cases where I can see what you said possible is if the killer has instadown like Bubba or stealth to surprise the survivors. For the rest, that is a lose/lose situation for the killer and that gen would be done whatever he does.
No, it makes them neither more nor less efficient. [...]
Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how aggregate gen times function.
I think is you who don't understand how charges and regression works. I don't even understand what you are trying to say here.
Regression affect charges, and the advantage regression gives the killer is more time to find, chase and hook survivors before they complete their objectives and escape. If a gen loses 47.7 charges and 3 survivors recover them in 17.47 seconds instead of 47.7, you are reducing the effectiveness of regressing those gens by removing gained time from the killer. If those charges where done by 3 survivors in first place, survivors would have only lost 17.47 seconds of their time to complete that objective instead of 47.7 seconds that they could have employed in other things like healing.
Charges of progress lost is only the same as time lost if only 1 survivor without any progression boost is doing a gen. Again, I think is a simple concept to understand.
Yes, glad you can remember this time that COB+OC is 175% to 300%, instead of 275% to 400% like you were trying to argue that one time.
If you read that, my point was that even 400% regression is not even enough, so it being 300% only proved my point further.
Anyway, I don't have a problem to accept when I'm wrong and correct myself. Would you do the same, or would you keep doing mental gymnastics to try to prove you are right?
[...] which means killer can secure an injure/pallet and only has to kick the gen again [...]
And give the survivor another 3 - 4 seconds between stopping in the gen, kicking it, and continue chasing for him to gain more distance and make you lose more time. Again, tell me you don't play killer without telling me you don't play killer.
Killers are playing quad slowdown builds because the early game is so survivor sided [...]
And why would that be? Maybe the fact that even basekit gen progression is absurdly fast, with SWF doing 2 to 3 gens by the time the killer do his first hook has something to do with it. And with PT even worst, more so taking in count all the other progression boost perks survivors have, plus toolboxes. So, we agree that progression is too much right now, right?...
The issue here isn't that killer's max achievable regression will never match survivors'
It is the issue when survivors complain non stop about gen regression meta over and over again wanting to nerf those perks without understanding precisely what you just explained there. And I guess it is the point OP was trying to make (not in the best way, I have to say).
But you are right, the real issue is with the current gen progression / rush meta, good survivors coordinating can do all 5 gens in 4-5 minutes, which forces most killers to stack regression perks and stuck to 3 gens to try to get the upper hand in the endgame. So, stop complaining about regression or start claiming for both progression and regression meta to be addressed. Simple as that.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
There's a base kit penalty for survivors working together on a gen. Prove doesn't even completely eliminate that penalty.
Two survivors on separate gens finish them in 90s. Two together, even with Prove and no travel time factored in, take 92.08 seconds to finish the same two gens. Survivors splitting up is *always* more efficient than working together with PT, the exception being the last gen, which saves maybe 6 seconds total.
You can read more about the actual mechanics of how this perk functions here:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Prove_Thyself
@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327157#Comment_3327157
I can do that very easily. PTS boosts gen speed for every person near the gen after the first person, meaning 15% for two, 30% for three, and 45% for all survivors. The game has a default gen penalty of 15% per survivor on a gen beyond the first one. Without PTS, gen speed is 0.85c/s+0.85c/s for two people, or about 53 seconds for a gen. With PTS, individual speed is 0.85x1.15, or 0.9775c/s, which is about 46 seconds for a gen. Two different people on two different gens will complete them in 90 seconds, or an avg of 45s per gen. There is no world where PTS boosts gen speeds by 60%, or boosts unbuffed gen speed above 1c/s.
People stacking up on a gens are also easier to pressure. If four people are on one gen, if you get close to it, that's four people doing nothing.
Lastly, Pop and assorted flat regression perks aren't regression DOT buff, they are straight progress deletion. They don't remove a set number of charges per second, they remove a set of flat charges.
It's incredibly idiotic to look at a bunch of percentages and start conflating them with each other with no understanding of what they represent.
What both of you don't get is splitting survivors on multiple gens would be "100% efficiency" in terms of charges per second, but not in time, and more time in gens means more time to things to go south for survivors AKA good for the killer (BTW, having 3 people on a gen won't be easier to pressure as the moment you start chasing one the other two would continue to repair it). Not only that, but makes not only normal regression but instant regression less efficient.
3 survivors on one gen with PT finish that gen in 32.97 seconds at 2.73 c/s. A 53% instant regression with Eruption + Pain Res + Jolt + Pop are 47.7 charges. So, in that gen, the total time lost for survivors are only 17.47 seconds approx instead of the 47.7 that would take one survivor to get those charges. And this is comparing the worst case scenario of full instant regression perks build against only one survivor perk, without taking in count other perks that boost repair, great skill checks or toolboxes. So, more people in a gen, perks or not, would be always more time efficient.
And the same concept applies to regression over time. But why even compare perk boosted regression against multiple survivors with PT when even against one without it, maxed out regression (in other words, CoB + OC, 175% to 300% with both active to 200% when CoB runs out) takes almost the double of time to fully regress a gen (160 seconds). A process one survivor can completely stop by slightly touching a gen for less than a second, by the way.
So, even if I can agree that PT is not really the problem your arguments aren't valid points because even basekit progression speed is way too much compared with all the regression perks a killer can put in a build.
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I get what your point is, but even if they don't added the Status HUD discord is still a thing so the problem would still be there, and SWF have an huge advantage over SoloQ just because of this. Now, as SoloQ players also get this info for free, BHVR can balance the killer side taking in count all survivors have map awareness without affecting badly SoloQ players.
To be honest, I think is the best. Just played some survivor matches and now I can see clearly how my teammates are destroying totems instead of going to do saves or gens. Let's hope SoloQ survivors main realize that if they lose so much games is not because killers are OP, but by their own doing.
I think is a good step in the right direction, even if for now it would probably affect killers badly as now every game is against a "SWF", sorta.
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@Akumakaji said:
Hello everyone,
well, as the titel says it, I am talking about splitting up on gens, as that is the number one reason why I tunnel. On most of my killers I play more chase oriented and without the dreaded Eruption/CoB combo, and I like the more traditional way of playing DBD, ie chase, down hook, one gen gets done. Chase, down, hook, another gen pops.
But lately its more like the survivors have woken up to the fact, that splitting up is the most effective tactic available, and in itself there is nothing wrong with that, BUT (there is always a but) its putting a lot of pressure on the killer. No matter how well you play, these days multiple gens will just pop in union, in the worst case scenario the first chase will end with 3 gens popping one after the other.
Really, what do you expect the killer to do in such a scenario? Just business as usual? Thats the point were I most likely turn from a casual and fun killer into a tunnel machine and of course it sours the mood, but at this point my regualr options are gone: if I just chase the next survivor, then gen 4 and 5 will pop once the second chase is over. This really irks me, as I don't enjoy tunneling, but I also don't enjoy getting thoroughly stomped and laughed out of the door.
I talked a lot about catch up mechanics and the lack there off in this game. Many players defend this by stating "why should I be punished for playing well?" or even more prevalent "why should THEY be rewarded for playing bad?". And why I can somewhat understand this sentiment, the lack of catchup mechanics means that the losing side will be backed against the wall. And a killer backed against the wall will most likely tunnel and camp.
Players who enjoy camping and tunneling will always do so, no matter the circumstances, but there is a sizable population of killers who actually want to play the game how it was intended, and thats getting harder and harder the better and more coordinated the survivors get.
So, if we can't get a catch up mechanic, can we at least get The Entity to intervene with gens the more are worked on at the same time? I don't know, reduced efficiency when the survivors are working on three gens or maybe even randomly blocking them or more skill checks or random explosions.
And yeah, I know that there are situations like a three gen where you have to split up, where you can't work on one gen, but for the most part its really getting rediculous.
That and DH and Eruption sucking the fun out of the game for the respective other side, but thats its own thing.
As you just said, splitting up gens is the most effective way of playing for survivors. So, don't feel bad for playing the most effective way of playing as a killer by removing one survivor ASAP, also known as tunneling, or using the best perk a killer has right now to combat survivor meta.
I agree that something need to be done to the chasing mechanics (the best way IMO would be to just reduce or remove the speed boost on hit for survivors, as the killer is already punished by being slowed down and is what makes Endurance in all it's forms literally just a third health state) but the "Survivor Moral Rulebook" are just made up rules that only benefit them, so don't follow it.
The meta is what it is right now, and not playing the most efficient way it is just not wanting to play the best way to win, survivor or killer. Simple as that.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323267#Comment_3323267
That would be true if killer mains did not convince devs that having 3gens within 20m on half the maps is good idea. As it stands it's not killer's 1s and survivor can work then for 1s. It's killers stay in 3gen and if anybody comes close, he will get injure (and then possible quick down which will reset everything with eruption).
If the devs at least made it so, that any 2 gens can't be closer together then 20m, then your math could MAYBE POTENTIALLY work. As it stands, killer can regress 2-3 gens at the same time AND "freeze" + regress them after down. But having 7 gens 20m apart would be impossible on some maps, because again - killers convinced devs, that maps like midwitch are actually good size for the game.
Again, if you are not smart enough to not alternate gens and don't left the killer with 3 close gens it's your fault. Bigger maps would mean more time to get to a gen which give more time to survivors to do a gen, and in most maps going from gen to gen is 10 seconds of walking approx. If progression of gens is a problem now, with bigger maps would be even worst.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323883#Comment_3323883
only if DH made no animation and lasted way longer. Then we could talk that it's comparable.
Also Eruption is 100% stronger in this meta, because you can't mix DH with sprint and lithe, but you can do so for eruption basically watering down the "negative" to something to laugh at. There's a huge number of killers that figured out chases are not as important as kicking the gen and will drop the chase just to move 5s away, kick the gen and then start new chase - because it's still worth it running multiple regression perks.
If there was "exhaustion" mechanics for eruption, CoB, Overcharge, Jolt and pain resonance, then the perks would also be actually comparable.
And while moving 5 seconds away, kicking the gen, and looking for another chase that survivor that you just let escape can come and continue the gen with almost not progress lost while the survivors already repairing would continue to do so until you find them. And when you do find them, if you stop to kick the gen to apply Eruption then you would be giving them time to hide or have a head start of the chase. So, basically you have just lost time.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323417#Comment_3323417
Timing is not the same thing as waiting. Time is dodging, or getting that weapon point when the shield drops.
Not the same thing as "Just stand around for 20 seconds, 4head."
Waiting is not a skill. Knowing when you have to wait is.
And being patient and waiting 30 seconds hiding for Starstruck to run off instead of launching yourself in front of the killer like a headless chicken is, at minimum, the smart thing to do.
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@GlitchyGamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361722/coh
Killers can already hear them from 10 miles away. Boons get snuffed almost instantly all the time in my games and you wanna make them a one time thing? Plus every game has Franklins demise so our medkits become useless too. So you guys basicly want healing to be completely reliant on teammates but no one has time to run across the map looking for teammates with the pain res, eruption,dead man's builds everyone's so stuck on rn.
Killer can hear them because unlike survivors they don't have any other way to locate a totem that is not an Hex, no killer perk gives totem aura reading like the map for example, survivors can choose where to place their boon so they can choose the most hidden and far apart totem to bless, and of course snuffing the totem don't deactivate the survivor perk, allowing him to basically just relit it over and over again until he is out of the game.
Also, the hell have boons or healing to do with any perk you said there? In fact except for Eruption if you are hit, the other perks not only not do anything to prevent you for healing someone, DMS literally block the gen for 30 seconds so good time to go and do something else like healing.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323376#Comment_3323376
Seriously like people forget boons do not equal hexes lol
But they should be. Why survivors get to have infinite amount of self healing for basically free while killers can have their perk slot completely nullified 30 seconds into the match because RNGesus decided to put my Hex in the most visible and unhidden totem the map generator can came up with?
Anyway, people are talking about how CoH need to be nerfed, not comparing CoH or boons with Hex perks.
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So, it is too strong because you decided to go for the save in front of the killer, without even doing the M1 tapping to force a hit and not a grab (and abuse of mechanics that should be removed BTW) or coordinating with the other survivor to body block the killer while unhooking, and not happy with that here comes a second survivor that completely ignored the debuff warning, believed he has the advantage of game mechanics again but got outplayed by the killer having Starstruck and downing him in only one hit...
I don't know, this sounds more like a you problem than Starstruck being too strong, even in this extremely casual situation that is going to happen to very few people.
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Instead of destroying the totem, what I would try is to rework it so CoH have a limit of use charges but the moment it run out of them or the killer snuff it it's gone for the rest of the game.
To avoid having more than one boon in the game, it could also be changed to work like an Hex and be randomly placed at the start of the game. If more than one survivor have CoH, the charges of both stacks in the same totem (e.g. 2 charges per perk, so 2 survivors with CoH = 4 healings). That way it's still useful, bringing more than one is still viable, but now can't be used at infinitum even when the killer have snuff it a hundred times already.
Or just make it so survivor can only bless one totem and when is snuffed the perk is gone like what happens with Hex perks, that would work too.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322243#Comment_3322243
To be fair, 300% regression is still a lot. It's slower than default survivor repair speed but that's not saying much, default repair speed is very fast.
It's not that much when you take in count survivors can stop the regression by simply tapping the gen and two survivors without any perk, item or checks can do in 53 seconds what CoB + OC reverts in 2:40 (2:42 in reality, as I forgot that OC go up by 25% regression every 6 seconds instead of gradually going up like I did, so it's 100% at 6 seconds and 125% at 12). That's the factual and mathematical truth as we have seen. Repair speed it's not only very fast, it's too fast.
So yeah, change Eruption and stackable regression, but do something about gen progression too.
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@Jensen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322280#Comment_3322280
I think its a difference if you have 5gens left of 0. Because one its a "close win" the other is a obvious win.
The Aura reading helps alot when it comes to hiding even a small aura of "just" 5meters. Yes you hear them when they are running or injured but not if they are just hiding behind cornors, wallsa nd stones.
You could check exitgates when seaching for hatch and just check with your aurareading that the suv. is not hiding there.
There is maps where you can check the exit gates from a longer distance than that, and in the one you can not you won't get as close as 5m distance of the door as that is the chance for the survivor to go to the other door and opening it. And in a hatch situation, going to check the exit doors would only give time to the survivor to look for the hatch. So, a lost-lost situation for the killer and that 1 to 5 meters of aura reading would be super situational, most taking in count that the last survivor would also see my aura and potentially can see me even before I see him.
And yes, a close win, but still a win. My BP isn't going to get affected because they did more or less gens, my MMR would go up if I kill 3 of them as that is my objective. Some killers right now even protect just the "last gens" in a zone to force survivors to have to come to him. I myself let survivors do gens that are hard to patrol on purpose.
Sorry, but I still think your idea would not only not solve what you pretend, but only make the hatch more beneficial to the survivors than it already is.
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@Jensen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321971#Comment_3321971
Please read again. (what did we talk about?, in what situation would the endgame take 30 minutes?)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321988#Comment_3321988
No it would reward the killer for playing good, and make him more likely to win if he gets to that stage with more Gens. Since the killer gets Aurasight than it would be mutch harder for the suvivor to hide at the exit gates.
The killer getting a 3k is the killer playing good, the amount of generators left is totally irrelevant at all levels for him (in fact, a 3k is already a win for the killer in terms of MMR, the 4k is just that little extra). Giving more advantages to survivors in the hatch phase is only punishing the killers more for playing good and not slug the 3º one to go for the 4k.
And 2 to 5 meters of aura reading is nothing, you would hear them even before you see their aura. Not even with a 32m aura radius would you see the survivor in the exit gate if the hatch spawned in the middle of the map.
I would love to see a change in how the hatch mechanic works, but your idea is not the way to go.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321925#Comment_3321925
OC doesn't increase the regression rate BY 75%, it increases it FROM 75% to 200% (aka a -25% to +100% change to reg speed). COB increases regression TO 200% (aka a +100% change to reg speed). The total regression goes from 175% (100% default+100% COB-25% OC) to 300% (100% default+100% COB+100% OC).
Well, math don't lie, so I created a little program to check it and you are right, it's 300% regression in reality:
Overcharge Max Bonus: 200.0 Overcharge Start Bonus: 75.0 Overcharge Percentage per Second: 4.166666666666667 CoB augment base before OC: false Sec: 0 | Per: 175 | OC: 75 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.43750 | Left: 90.0 Sec: 1 | Per: 179 | OC: 79 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.44792 | Left: 89.5625 Sec: 2 | Per: 183 | OC: 83 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.45833 | Left: 89.11458333333333 Sec: 3 | Per: 187 | OC: 87 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.46875 | Left: 88.65625 Sec: 4 | Per: 191 | OC: 91 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.47917 | Left: 88.1875 Sec: 5 | Per: 195 | OC: 95 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.48958 | Left: 87.70833333333333 Sec: 6 | Per: 200 | OC: 100 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.50000 | Left: 87.21875 Sec: 7 | Per: 204 | OC: 104 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.51042 | Left: 86.71875 Sec: 8 | Per: 208 | OC: 108 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.52083 | Left: 86.20833333333333 Sec: 9 | Per: 212 | OC: 112 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.53125 | Left: 85.6875 Sec: 10 | Per: 216 | OC: 116 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.54167 | Left: 85.15625 Sec: 11 | Per: 220 | OC: 120 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.55208 | Left: 84.61458333333333 Sec: 12 | Per: 225 | OC: 125 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.56250 | Left: 84.0625 Sec: 13 | Per: 229 | OC: 129 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.57292 | Left: 83.5 Sec: 14 | Per: 233 | OC: 133 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.58333 | Left: 82.92708333333333 Sec: 15 | Per: 237 | OC: 137 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.59375 | Left: 82.34375 Sec: 16 | Per: 241 | OC: 141 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.60417 | Left: 81.75 Sec: 17 | Per: 245 | OC: 145 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.61458 | Left: 81.14583333333333 Sec: 18 | Per: 250 | OC: 150 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.62500 | Left: 80.53125 Sec: 19 | Per: 254 | OC: 154 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.63542 | Left: 79.90625 Sec: 20 | Per: 258 | OC: 158 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.64583 | Left: 79.27083333333333 Sec: 21 | Per: 262 | OC: 162 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.65625 | Left: 78.625 Sec: 22 | Per: 266 | OC: 166 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.66667 | Left: 77.96875 Sec: 23 | Per: 270 | OC: 170 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.67708 | Left: 77.30208333333333 Sec: 24 | Per: 275 | OC: 175 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.68750 | Left: 76.625 Sec: 25 | Per: 279 | OC: 179 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.69792 | Left: 75.9375 Sec: 26 | Per: 283 | OC: 183 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.70833 | Left: 75.23958333333333 Sec: 27 | Per: 287 | OC: 187 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.71875 | Left: 74.53125 Sec: 28 | Per: 291 | OC: 191 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.72917 | Left: 73.8125 Sec: 29 | Per: 295 | OC: 195 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.73958 | Left: 73.08333333333333 Sec: 30 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 72.34375 Sec: 31 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 71.59375 Sec: 32 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 70.84375 Sec: 33 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 70.09375 Sec: 34 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 69.34375 Sec: 35 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 68.59375 Sec: 36 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 67.84375 Sec: 37 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 67.09375 Sec: 38 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 66.34375 Sec: 39 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 65.59375 Sec: 40 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 64.84375 Sec: 41 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 64.09375 Sec: 42 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 63.34375 Sec: 43 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 62.59375 Sec: 44 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 61.84375 Sec: 45 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 61.09375 Sec: 46 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 60.34375 Sec: 47 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 59.59375 Sec: 48 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 58.84375 Sec: 49 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 58.09375 Sec: 50 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 57.34375 Sec: 51 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 56.59375 Sec: 52 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 55.84375 Sec: 53 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 55.09375 Sec: 54 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 54.34375 Sec: 55 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 53.59375 Sec: 56 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 52.84375 Sec: 57 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 52.09375 Sec: 58 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 51.34375 Sec: 59 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 50.59375 Sec: 60 | Per: 300 | OC: 200 | CoB: 100 | CpS: -0.75000 | Left: 49.84375 Sec: 61 | Per: 200 | OC: 200 | CoB: 0 | CpS: -0.50000 | Left: 49.09375 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sec: 159 | Per: 200 | OC: 200 | CoB: 0 | CpS: -0.50000 | Left: 0.09375 TOTAL SECONDS: 160
Comparing the results with this video of Choy where every gen finish 10 seconds earlier approx, it can't be 400% as that would be only 139 seconds (2:19 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtF_5jH8wwThe way I understood it was exactly how you said: If CoB increases regression "to 200%" and OC make it go "from 75% to 200%" of itself, that would be ((-0.25 * 2) * 75) / 100 = -0.375 c/s at the start of OC, and (-0.25 * 2) * 2 = -1 c/s = 400% regression in total, or 300% increase after 30 seconds with both perks activated. But as I said that would be 139 seconds only.
So yeah, I was wrong... but on the wright side, another reason for people to stop complaining about regression perks and how OP stacking them is 🤣
The code I did, if there is some curious fellow programmer out there reading this (warning: spaghetti as hell): https://pl.kotl.in/g-xY3c2z6
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@Jensen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320412#Comment_3320412
Why? Isnt it better when you get rewarded for playing good?
Atm they could also just end the game instandly and flip a coin. Would have the same result
So, survivors need to be rewarded even more for losing to the killer? The hatch already give the last survivor 2 free escape chances, the hatch itself and the exit gates when it closes. It such a reward that many people are not even taking the first one and instead of looking for the hatch they just wait at the exit gates for the killer to close it.
Also, this wouldn't solve what you are trying, as survivor would still hide the moment only 2 are left. It would only make the hatch to benefit even more the last survivor, whatever he did something the rest of the game or not.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361571/killer-camping
There are too many killers holding the game hostage by camping hookCamping is not holding the game hostage.
this could be solved if hook progression would pause after the killer has been in close proximity for too longSurvivors would force the Killer into a loop and force the timer to pause or for the Killer to leave & allow unsafe unhooks.
Source: They tried this. Survivors abused it.
I will say it again: Camping is not holding the game hostage. The hooked Survivor can still die. Other Survivors can still do gens. NOTHING about camping is holding the game hostage.
I swear; 'Holding the game hostage' has become some sort of buzzword warcry for Survivors. Anything they don't like becomes either 'Unfun', or 'Holds the game hostage', so they can insist on horrible, easily abused changes.
You forgot the "There is no counter play to it" to complete the saint trinity of the survivor main mindset.
Everything a killer does needs to have some kind of clear and easy counter, being fun for the survivor or simply allow them to play/win however they want or it should be nerfed or banned, as it's written in their holy book "The Survivor Morals Rulebook".
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321341#Comment_3321341
Meaning nerf that killer as he's OP? He's not even the worst offender. That place belongs to nurse. And no. Even blight is fine provided that perks like Eruption would become reasonable instead of their current state.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321277#Comment_3321277
You make it sound like killers were nerfed 100 times and the game is now heavily survivor sided. I would advice you to actually check old DBD clips from the beginning of this game (like from 2016). This would be a nice reminder that it's actually survivors that are being CONSTANTLY nerfed. You can't even realistically compare the game from that time to this one. 60% kill rate being just one prime example and constant survivor incentives (even if survivor games are quicker then killer's) just underlying the state we are in right now.
That is the most forced straw man fallacy I have ever seen. Please, re-read what was being talked about and understand it before answering.
@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321131#Comment_3321131
COB+OC is 300% reg, not 400
CoB + OC is 275% regression on the kicking, 400% after 30 seconds as OC increases the regression rate by 75% to 200% over 30 seconds.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321348#Comment_3321348
If that were true then you should know better.
For liking an interesting mechanic idea and thought it could be cool if they implemented it in a balanced way? Oh no, yeah, I see now my sins against the killer mains brotherhood, I will flagellate myself later 🤣
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320634#Comment_3320634
The last thing killers need is yet another nerf, there is no reason for it. Killers are weak af already. Some actual buffs are highly needed. You not winning is a skill issue, not a balance issue. The balance is already heavily in your favor in every conceivable way.
... The hell are you talking about? I just said as a mechanic I liked the idea if they implemented it in a balanced way, but best of all: I'm a killer main, dude 🤣
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321226#Comment_3321226
Here are my stats: Mostly blight played but as you can see I very rarely use any slowdowns at all. (My most common build is Lethal + BBQ + AA + either IF or Enduring depending on how Im feeling
Here are my most used perks and results from my last 277 matches. 1 Trapper, 16 spirit, 28 wesker, 16 nurse, 208 blight
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VTZQRUSAG8BC/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J4G0R1VYIV76/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8HZ8M1R07CTA/image.png
Most used survivor perks in those matches in case youre curious
So, you basically play high mobility, top tier killers including the one killer with highest killrate... I think my point has being proved.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321131#Comment_3321131
The problem with doing the gen in 33 seconds is even if you can get all 3 survivors together on a gen, my average solo queue team mate cant go 15 seconds without getting hit so they get downed 3 seconds before we finish the gen regardless
if its so easy why dont you queue up for some survivor matches right now and show us how its done
15 seconds to go down? I'm going to apply the survivor main logic that is used around here for killers and say that sounds like a skill issue, my friend 🤣
With PT, even 2 survivors doing the gen would do it in 46.04 seconds, at 1.96 c/s. Pair PT with Situational Awareness and even in SoloQ you would have more chances for other survivors to come repair the same gen as you. Grab Deja Vu with a map and you would know what gens to do so the killer don't ends up with strong 3 last gens. Not that is needed, as gens usually spawn at the same spots on the map, so it's easy to know what gens should be done first.
And why don't you start playing a non-high mobility killer, stack 4 regression perks, and come here to tell us how many games against high MMR survivors don't end with 1 gen left or less than 3k. Oh, and no tunneling or camping! Just plain good survivor moral rules book gameplay. Enjoy your stress!
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320652#Comment_3320652
25s incap + 9s instant regression + 6s normal regression that you can't stop because incapacitated. So no. It's 40 seconds and not 33s. Also it can hit up-to 3 survivors for this value (which can very easily happen when defending last 3gen).
The perk when paired with OC+CoB is just *WAAAAY TOO OP* . It would be fine on it's own, but not when it can stack with other stuff. Defending 3gen indefinitely is not that hard. It's time to nerf it somehow (at least create something like exhaustion that survivors have - it would be also very unfair if survivors could use at the same time DH, sprint, lithe and balanced landing.
You haven't even read what I said.
33 seconds is what it takes 3 survivors with PT to complete a gen, less than the average chase. So, in this situation countering Eruption is as easy as just do the gen before the killer can down the 4º survivor, something that would be easy if the survivor he is chasing is a good looper and/or use WoO to just go pallet to pallet to waste the killer's time.
And now, about your "40 seconds" point: Generator repair doesn't go by seconds, go by charges (90 charges in total). 1 survivor repair at a rate of 1 c/s, taking 90 seconds in total to complete a gen. If you only take one survivor without any perks, toolboxes or great checks repairing a gen, getting hit by eruption and just waiting for Incapacitated to run out then yes, that would be 25 + 9 = 34 seconds of unavoidable regression and 6.25 seconds of avoidable regression (as another survivor not affected by it can simply tap the gen and stop the "normal regression").
But in reality that aren't seconds, but charges. So even in that worst case scenario 34 charges can be recovered in 20 seconds by two survivors without perks, toolboxes or great checks. With PT and two survivors, that would be 17.34 seconds. A single survivor with a common toolbox would do it in 26.89 seconds. I think you get the idea by now.
But what if it was two survivors repairing the gen? Well, the lost charges in the gen would be the same, and now two survivors are incapacitated for 25 seconds so if those survivors would repair each a single gen would be a total lost of 50 charges. But for the gen affected by Eruption, in repair time, it would have only lost 5.29 seconds of unavoidable regression, as two survivors with just basekit progression take only 52.94 seconds to complete the gen, and in the same situation of just waiting for incapacitated to wear off as before, in reality the lost in possible charges would be 42.5 (0.85 c/s per survivor), which at a rate of 1.7 c/s would be... 25 seconds of progress lost (24.99 in reality). So, in the same scenario as before but with two survivors repairing and getting hit by Eruption, the total lost in seconds would be 25 + 5.29 = 30.29 seconds of unavoidable regression. Even less than with one survivor only. And again, that is just "wasted time", as the lost in charges in the gen is less and can be recovered much faster than that.
But for the last "but" we have to point out that all this is assuming those survivors with the Incapacitated effect would continue to repair that generator. What if the killer just downed the survivor close to the gen they were repairing and decide to slug the downed survivor and go for the ones in the gen? There, that 25 seconds of "progress lost" would be no more as they wouldn't be repairing that gen in the first place. In fact, those 25 seconds of "progress lost" never was really "progress lost" but "possible progress not gained", meaning that a gen at 90% after Eruption just triggered could be continue to be repaired at that % by a survivor not affected with Incapacitated.
So, as I said, that 40 seconds wasted is only true if you are hit by Eruption while repairing the generator alone without perks, toolbox or doing great checks, no other survivors comes to continue that gen, and you can just wait patiently in the gen for the incapacitation effect to wear off.
And about the "OP" part with stacking it with OC and CoB, a 400% regression is -1 c/s lost, basically the same rate at what one survivor can repair a gen, and to avoid this you only have to slightly tap the gen to stop the regression. And defend 3 gens is easy in some maps and if the survivors aren't smart enough to do the mid gens and let the killer with one gen in each corner of the map.
In conclusion, if you want to counter Eruption + regression stack just play smart and do gen fast.
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They would be similar if it wasn't because the "40 seconds" wasted is only true if you are hit by it and was repairing the generator alone without any perk or toolbox, countering it by repairing can be done in 33 seconds with two other survivors and PT, and the killer didn't have to take time to kick the gen for it to be active in that gen, which can be a gen that already has 90% of progress.
The most close equivalent for a Mettle of Man for killers would be "When survivors complete 3 gens, the next gen they complete regress to 0% and should be repaired again".
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Sorry, I had to do it 🤣
It's not a bad idea for a new mechanic tho, even if it is obviously and indirect killer nerf. Maybe instead of affect regression it could simply make the generator "harder" and add to the time a killer need to kick it or something like that (if they also implement a meaningful reason to kick a gen as basekit for balance).
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320283#Comment_3320283
I'm all for toning down toolboxes and oppressive gen perks on both sides. BNPs are just as dumb as Eruption is. Hyperfocus/Stakeout together shouldn't be capable of shaving 30 seconds off a gen either.
You're right, the 10% regression Eruption provides is not a problem and actually it's good that it was buffed from 6% to 10%. That part of the perk is fine. Being unable to do anything at all for 25 seconds with no consistent counterplay for solo queue players is problematic.
I'm not even saying I don't agree that Eruption should be changed, but if you remove what is precisely what makes the perk the best counter to the current survivor meta what would you get is an unbalanced game again.
My two favorites ways of doing it is changing the incapacitation for a gen block like @Blueberry said, or even better add some basekit mechanic so a killer kicking the gen actually do something and nerf not only Eruption but all gen regression perks.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320313#Comment_3320313
######### do you expect survivors to bring when eruption is all over the place. Its a vicious cycle.
Killers bring heavy regression to stop gen rush
Survivors bring more gen rush to stop gen regression
Its a loop.
Nerf eruption, COB and Overcharge
Nerf BNPs, Hyperfocus.
Gen rush and stall needs to stop.
Also, if "fun" is not a good argument to change something. Then saying that eruption makes killer playing easier is not a good argument. I said the perk is OP, hundreds of forum post, tweets, youtube videos, tiktok so i am not surprised that the perk makes games easier to win. The perk is memed for how unfun and OP is.
And honestly, when the ptb came and one of the community manager post was that they couldn't get perk changes for this PTB, i think everyone knows what perk they have in mind.
That "vicious cycle" is what is called "meta", the most efficient way of playing. As an asymmetric game, this game has "two metas", the survivors one (right now, gen progression) and the killer one (gen regression).
And you would be right about the "fun" part if it wasn't because nobody has said that Eruption "makes playing easier" or more fun to play killer. Is just the best perk in the current killer meta and the most efficient to counter the current survivor meta. It has nothing to do with "fun".
But I agree with you in the other thing you said: What they should do is with the next chapter patch is rework both metas in tandem to force the shift to a new meta. Until then, Eruption would stay as the best way to counter survivors's gen rush meta.
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320283#Comment_3320283
That post is pretty hyperbolic
Not everything the killer does has strong counterplay. But very few things are as strong as applying a pain res-like effect to multiple gens with 25 seconds of incapacitated.
Many killers don't run Eruption and are very successful, only 20% even run it. You don't need it.
This doesn't mean you can't ask for Killers to get their own buffs or for survivors to lose certain things too. What even is the gen rushing meta? People doing their objectives? True genrush teams bringing multiple hyperfocuses, prove thyself, and BNPs are super rare. This person sounds like they're suffering from a horrible early game more than anything else, and should consider bringing corrupt to help with that.
But why Eruption not having a counterplay is an argument against it? That is my point. And is an argument used many times for "killer things". The other day someone used the same argument to respond to why the auras of survivors aren't draw on top of the gen auras, "to counter aura reading by staying behind", and now two people with the exact same one about Eruption. Like seriously, do you expect to be able to counter every killer perk out there? How many strong things survivors can do that doesn't have direct counters to it?
And I didn't say killers need it, I said that right now is one of the best weapon against the gen rush meta among the few most killers have. And no, is not just "doing objectives", is doing them in so an efficient way that is impossible to counter without gen regression perks (hence, meta, the same reason Eruption is a killer meta perk at 20% use, because gen regression is the most efficient way of playing as killer right now). It's gangbang a generator until it's done no matter the cost, and right now that can be as low as 33 seconds with just PT, not even counting great skill checks, toolboxes or other perks.
Unless you find a hero squad that is more concern to not let the killer hook someone that doing gens, by the time you get your second hook you would have 4 survivors with 2 gens left, and unless that second hook is on the same one (and then be prepared for the cries about the tunneling) you are now in an almost lost game unless they start snowballing mistakes. Maybe killers with great mobility or certain powers can overcome this without regression perks, but for others it is impossible unless you have Eruption + other regression perks (and for they to not be smart enough to let you have 3 or 4 close up gens) to control that last gens the best that you can. And the best thing to do this, is precisely the Incapacitation effect of Eruption.
So, again, nerf gen progression AKA the current survivor meta and then nerf Eruption with the rest of the gen regression meta in tandem to balance the game and force a meta switch. Until then, if you remove the Incapacitation effect from Eruption without swapping it with something as effective in stopping gen progression you are just removing from killers the best counter against those good survivor players that can do the 5 gens in less than 5 minutes.
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@BlueHorkew said:
So what does Eruption do:
For the price of Kicking a Gen, which if you have other perks is not even a price.
You get for downing a survivor, your main objective with no requirements.
10% regression
Survivors working on the gen can't do objectives for 25 seconds
Reveals information to killer that survivors were o gens
Survivors can't predict when eruption will trigger
Additional 6.5% regression during the incapacitated effect, because bhvr didn't have time to do perk changes for this ptb, but in the Knight ptb had time to buff the best killer perk and hide it in the bug fixes section.
The perk has a low cooldown compared to other perks
The perk has no limit of time, number of gens nothing.
Survivors don't know they are working on a trapped gen, as the perk doesn't reveal it like other perks
This perk, at max value does like 3 perks combined in one. Its Pain res + DMS + information that can be applied instantly on multiple gens
I am so tired of Eruption discourse, but this perk cannot keep being this unfun and have the potential of being 3 perks in one slot. You can't have regression, pseudo gen blocking and information for 1 perk. All of this without having no downsides or counterplay opportunities like Pain res + DMS.
If they want a gen blocking perk, make the perk block gens, if you want a regression perk make it regress the gen.
Ironically, the counterplay for Eruption is precisely completing your main objective as survivor with no requirements: Just do the gen. Kicking a gen has always a price: Giving time to the survivors to hide or gain distance as you would stop and focus on the gen instead of looking where the survivors did go.
The Incapacitation effect is what makes Eruption one of the few ways the killer have to really stop gen progression and that's why it is the most effective weapon against gen rushing right now. Most regression perks have the inconvenience of just start regressing the gen, which can be solved in less of a second with a little tap from a survivor. And the insta-regression is not much of a problem: Even Pain Res, which have 15% insta-regression only adds around 8 seconds to the repair time if two survivors are working on that exploded gen without perks or items. In a meta where a single chase can cost you 3 gens, that's not enough time to even find your next survivor to chase after a hook.
Also, why everything the killer do need to have a counterplay? How many things survivors have that the killer can't do anything about? How can I counter Sprint Boost? Blast Mine? Self-Care? Off the Record? What a killer can do against someone with WoO going from pallet to pallet without even trying to loop?
And sorry, but something "not being fun" is not an argument to do anything about it. But if Eruption has to change, first they should address the gen rushing meta to keep the balance.
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@JimmyCasket said:
Seeing how a Black Ward cannot be countered in any way, it's a bit bs that a White Ward can be countered by not only Franklin's Demise, but several annoying Killer Add-ons. So, I propose a simple rework to the White Ward to counter this unfair mechanic. White Ward: When played, will allow the survivor to maintain their item and add-ons in the even they lose it, by any means. So if they die with it on hand, they keep it, if they drop it (for some reason) and haven't picked up a new item since, they keep it. Even both combined, they keep it.
The Black Ward doesn't have any counter because the killer would lose his addons whatever he wins or not at the end of the game, can't get others from the game itself and can't pick them up from the ground in case of "losing them"...
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The problem is just Eruption and how it uses Incapacitated, not the status effect itself. It’s perfectly fine for Victor and Pinhead’s chains. It’s not fine when it’s applied for a set duration with little counterplay outside of SWF. Eruption has always been a badly designed perk, even before it was buffed.
From another comment about the topic:
The Incapacitation effect is what makes Eruption one of the few ways the killer have to really stop gen progression and that's why it is the most effective weapon against gen rushing right now. Most regression perks have the inconvenience of just start regressing the gen, which can be solved in less of a second with a little tap from a survivor. And the insta-regression is not much of a problem: Even Pain Res, which have 15% insta-regression only adds around 8 seconds to the repair time if two survivors are working on that exploded gen without perks or items. In a meta where a single chase can cost you 3 gens, that's not enough time to even find your next survivor to chase after a hook.
Also, why everything the killer do need to have a counterplay? How many things survivors have that the killer can't do anything about? How can I counter Sprint Boost? Blast Mine? Self-Care? Off the Record? What a killer can do against someone with WoO going from pallet to pallet without even trying to loop?
If you want to change how Eruption works, first you should address the gen rushing meta to keep the balance.
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I suggested something similar not long ago https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359226/add-a-way-to-sell-exchange-unused-addons-also-subcategories-for-loadout-menu
Let's hope they add it in some way.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3316598#Comment_3316598
Because every mechanic has some kind of counter or workaround. Why else would hiding in lockers also hide auras?
Because as you said, that's the way to hide your aura and counter aura reading. Auras not showing on top of other auras or visual ques is because how the game rendering works, doesn't have anything to do with "mechanics".
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@Seraphor said:
It's intended that way, so that survivors can hide their aura behind generators.
That doesn't makes sense as normally it would be purely coincidental, when you can see their aura you are just in an angle where the gen aura is hiding them. And even if you where right, then what is the point of revealing the aura if they can hide it for free if they are in the right spot?
@jajay119 said:
Ok, if we can have killer auras visible in the 'magnifying glass' effect that is present when someone is hooked - half the time it makes running kindred pointless because by the time the Magnifier effect is gone and no longer obscuring the killer they've left the effect radius and you didn't see in which direction they went which is a vital part of the perk .
The visual cues should be reduced in size in general, for everybody. I don't know how many times I couldn't see where the survivors go when unhooking or a gen is completed because of the damn "magnifying glass" as you call it. But I agree, the auras revealed, specially those of the survivors and killer, should be drawn on top of everything else.
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And why not the reverse? Specifics animations when the survivor is suffering from Exhaustion. Yes, you would still have to try to bait a non-exhausted survivor, but at least would reduce the amount of it without "nerfing" the perk.
In fact this should be done with other status effects as well, like Exposed. It happened to me that using the Umbrella Badge with Nemesis when chasing a survivor I don't really know if the effect is still in place as I can't exactly tell how much time has passed since they took the vaccine.
It would be good QoL upgrade to have some kind of visual feedback about the status of the survivor we are chasing instead of having to remember and guess every single thing. If it is in form of different animations even better, as it would also be more immersive.
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The only thing that would accomplish is the moment one of them gain the special item, it would look for the hatch and the other will wait patiently in front of the gate to open it. What is already happening (the rare thing now is for the last survivor to look for the hatch), but now you are not only denying the killer to close that way of escape but allowing two survivors instead of one to just be free, for free, as to gain that possibility they only need to just "play the game". So this will not only have the same problems for the killer as with the hatch right now, would possibly negate a 3k.
In fact, depending on when they can start to gain points for that "special item" it can be practically impossible to obtain or so easy it would only encourage people to hide. If they can gain the special item from the start of the game, the moment they obtain it there is no reason to continue "playing", as it would be better to hide and wait for two other survivors to just die. If you can only get points with two survivors left, with most gens done and the two of them being at 1-2 hooks probably, it would be impossible to gain the 90 points by the time the killer get to them.
It's not a good idea for either of both sides, at least how you explained it.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315641#Comment_3315641
oh I see, you're using a different definition of "competetive" than i expected
you meant "you are playing against someone else and not just exclusively cooperatively," not "it is an esport" which is what I assumed
yeah the fact that you're going against other people is, imo, not reason enough to be disrespectful to someone else's experience by intentionally ending it early (for either side)
No, I'm using the definition of "competitive" and "zero-sum game", if you think that only games played professionally are the only competitive games or the only ones played at high level skill is your problem.
And your conclusion is that playing to win in the most efficient and competitive way is disrespect the rival by making him lose early... got it:
No more triples in the NBA to gain point advantages, no more punches to the head in boxing to avoid early KOs, the same in MMA with kicks or grappling, no more buying the red and oranges streets in Monopoly as they are statically the most rewarding. Ban combos longer than 2 hits from fighting games. Forbid to be able to kill someone from behind in FPS. Oh, and ban any survivor that do a gen in less than 40 seconds, is disrespecting the killer by not letting him commit to chases and ending the game by the time he got his second hook.
Obviously, your logic is flawless.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360768/enough-is-enough
Efficient survivor play revolves around the tunneling and removal of generators. Efficient killer play likewise is removing one player from the game as fast as possible. Things like Borrowed time base kit have only made me tunnel harder than ever. Why? Because SWF is completely broken and has been for 6 years with no limitation. Also we have videos were it is "routine" to make one generator take 35 seconds. That's completely absurd.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315473#Comment_3315473
Actually their stats showed that something like 55% of players at that time played every game in a SWF.
The 8% figure was 4 man SWF teams. In my experience a lot more people play SWF all the time now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315416#Comment_3315416
This guy gets it.
No no no, we are the ones who doesn't get it. Killers aren't supposed to play to win, we should be the personal jesters of survivors and play for their fun! Didn't you hear what our survivor mains overlords said? 🤣
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315491#Comment_3315491
"by nature and design" lol. lmao. the game was clearly designed and marketed as a fun party game, a lot of the early marketing in particular was centered around the idea of the KYF being a primary game mode
I'd also point out the two games you've mentioned are symmetrical games (not asymmetrical like dbd) and are not the most modern iteration of their franchise/style. most casual tetris players likely play on their phones, some facebook app, or maybe a website if they're feeling spicy. most casual smash players will be playing ultimate (not melee) on their switch. the reason those specific games are seen as competetive is because only the competetive players are left playing it. dbd, by comparison, is still very active among all sorts of players.
i'll also note that anecdotally, basically everyone i know who plays DBD shares my attitude that its casual, and this goes for both survivors and killers. most of the (small minority of) super sweaty players i know even recognize its a party game and that although they enjoy playing it competitively its not the only way, or even the primary way, to play
Yes, by nature and design, as any zero-sum game. Being symmetrical or asymmetrical is not relevant (BTW, fighting games its what is called "Partial asymmetrical"), what is relevant is that again, someone wins, someone lose.
And I gave you that two examples because those was two competitive "party" games that their player base turned in a high skill competitive game. That doesn't means a party game is not competitive, only that now because how it is played someone requires top play for being good at the game. So in Smash Bros you either find people to play it at low skill level as a party fun game, or if you want to play the main ranked mode you either play to get good or you would lose. And if you don't find fun in getting good at it, again, is your problem.
And you are misunderstanding "cooperate with your friends" with "party game". One of the selling points of any team multiplayer game is cooperating with your friends, that doesn't means it is a low skill party game. Are games like Overwatch or CoD party games just because I can do a squad with friends? Your argument don't make any sense.
Again, a zero-sum game with a ranked system where people are rewarded or punished for winning or losing, where two teams compete against each other and where you need some degree of skill to be good at it, but is not a high skill competitive game... is that really so hard to understand?
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@Yoshirama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315430#Comment_3315430
I always find funny that people keep telling to players that get a SWF and then complain about SFW being too strong and should be removed lmao
Do you realize that is the point of my comment, right? Because they are saying tunneling ends too fast a survivors and should be removed? Just saying.
And I didn't see anyone (seriously) arguing SWF should be removed, but gen rushing with a coordinated SWF is the reason for a lot of things killers do in their game, starting with tunneling and ending with stacking gen regression perks with Eruption + CoB. So yeah, do something about the gen progression and then we can talk about tunneling and such.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315465#Comment_3315465
i guess i misremembered, there was a dev stream where they said the percent of 4 person SWF was around 8.5% and I thought it was something different. same ballpark though
most people don't see dbd as a competetive game but rather a party game, and the reason they don't like people camping and tunneling is because they think someone optimizing a party game and treating public matches as if they were not only a competetive game but also a match being played for money is unfun.
as i said, if you want to avoid SWFs, simply dodge until you get people trickling into the lobby, but given that you like to play competetively maybe you should actively seek out SWFs since that's the environment you're looking for
That's sound like a "you" problem. DbD, by nature and design, is a competitive game. Any zero-sum game is a competitive game. At first maybe people played it just for fun, but as time passes people would start playing to win in the most optimal way instead, and this happened even with Tetris's versus mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L_l4dj0KRAThe best example for this would be Super Smash Bros. It was planned as a 4 player party fighting game, then people started to play it competitively by playing as optimally as the game allowed them by the competitive nature of a fighting game, not just for the fun of playing it, but the fun of getting good and skilled at it. Now, unless you are with friend and wanting to have fun, the predominant way to play it is 1v1 without items.
What you are asking is for people to stop playing competitively in a skill ranked competitive game because you want to play it like a party game just for the fun of playing and not winning. Sorry, but no.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315415#Comment_3315415
"i should ruin someone else's day on the off chance they might have friends they play with" is uh, quite the argument
SWFs load in all at once. if you don't want to go against SWFs, dodge until you get lobbies where people load in at different times - there's no dodge penalty and you won't have to risk being a complete scumbag to one person just on the 5% chance that they're in a 4-person SWF (5% of all games have 4 person swf, and i'm making the assumption that they're all comp squads, even though that's probably not true)
And where do you get that 5% SWF? Just curious.
And the difference is I'm not ruining someone else day, I'm just playing optimally in a competitive game taking in count that I could encounter other people playing that way. Again, you can't expect other to not play to win just because you want to play chill and "have fun".
Also, I said that because was the OP who suggested that tunneling at the start of the game against SoloQ is a no-no. Even if it was a no-no, the killer don't have a way to tell they are a SWF until the late game.
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315444#Comment_3315444
Lol first off it's she and I'm offended that you would assume that I'm a male.
And secondly I'm sure that if there was a poll for the player base everyone would see that it's all casual people that play the game. To wind down after work and just have a chill time.
But keep assuming..make an @$$ out of yourself
Accuse me of assuming for using correct generic grammar, proceeds to assume 100% of the player base are casuals in a ranked competitive game... k.
Nothing more to say.
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315430#Comment_3315430
And please tell me..where I said "no fun is to be had by killers" I'm the survivor that when a killer farms I kill myself in the end game collapse. So don't put all survivors in that type of behavior. Because it's not true at all.
The moment you suggest that someone should not play in a certain way so you and others can have your "fun game". There is where you said it.
You want to have your fun at cost of the killers fun. At least, that's how you sound with things like "I don't care to win as much as you, so you should not play to win".
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315430#Comment_3315430
I actually solo q all of my games. I don't have a swf group to play with but when I did we weren't playing like a swat team. We actually talked about real life stuff and caught up with each other because that's when we would talk. Yall make it seem like every swf group is elite swat teams that will stomp you. Not everyone cares as much about winning as you. But when it's game after game after it gets old af. And honestly there needs to be something done with it.
So, another survivor main that don't play the game optimally to win but still thinks he has the right to claim for others to not play competitively in a competitive game because he is entitled to have fun. What a surprise! I didn't hear this one before...
If you weren't playing as a "swat team", it is your fault. Gen rushing is a thing and DbD is a competitive game. You can't seriously ask for killers to play like it is not just because you don't want to play the game seriously.
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315416#Comment_3315416
I wanna be able to end killer game play as fast as you can ours
Easy, get into a SWF with voicechat and coordinate well. By the time the killer is going to do his second hook you would have all gens done.
But remember me again why killers should worry about you having fun when obviously you, like all survivors, don't give a damn about theirs.
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@shiroo said:
Out of my last 10 games...at least in half of them (I wish I was exaggerating) killers just start to hard tunnel at 4-5 gens...
I thought it was just a bad weekend but the trend continues. I understand that you often need to tunnel for pressure but in Solo Q? When not a single gen is done? How can this be a good experience for anyone?
Either first person gets tunneled out or just DCs leaving 3 ppl in massive disadvantage.
You want to keep allowing this kind of gameplay? Fine, but AT LEAST introduce some kind of BP penalty for this in early game. Because it's just insane to me that killers get rewarded for this BS.
After 2 years of playing this game I accepted a lot of things, both on surv and killer side. But this is just crossing the line. The games are getting less and less enjoyable because of this.
And how would a killer differentiate between a coordinated full SWF with voicechat from a SoloQ squad at the start of the game? Should I risk the possibility for survivors to be coordinated and let them do 3 gens in less than 2 minutes because the possibility of them not being Gen Rushing?
Having 4 survivors at 3 gens could mean a lost game, having 4 survivors at 2 gens is a lost game unless you stack up regression perks, have a good 3 gen situation and they start to pile up mistakes. As long as survivors can Gen Rush tunneling would not only be a necessity, it would be most effective to do at the start of the game to take out one survivor ASAP.
Not only that, but most of the time tunneling is only doable if the survivors allow you to do it. While you are tunneling that one survivor there is at least two of them totally free to do gens undisturbed, and with the basekit BT unless you can hit the unhooked survivor the moment he touch the ground the chase would be longer than usual. Stop doing unsafe unhooks in front of the killer, stop going "Hero mode x 3" and going all in to the rescue, and you would see how you would make less appealing for the killer to tunnel.
"How can this be a good experience for anyone?" The real question is "Why the killer has to sacrifice his chance of winning so it can be a good experience for you?". Stop pretending like you having fun in a competitive game is most important than people playing it optimally.