AssortedSorting
AssortedSorting
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829555#Comment_3829555
I see your point, but they could make more adjustments to balance the constant value you know?
Kinda like needing you to stand still and not be doing any other objective at the time?
But in terms of QoL I do like what Jester mentioned.
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@Autharia said:
It already has a 30 second CD and only useable while healthy. So at most you see it once a chase.
Honestly I’d have preferred something like:
The cooldown begins after chase ends and is paused while Exhausted. (Also possibly just: this cooldown pauses while in chase or Exhausted).
And maybe removing the Healthy criteria.
That way you may still only see it once per chase, but it also won’t ever be used more than once in a continuous chase, and separated by Exhaustion timer if the exhaustion perk successfully breaks chase.
Kind of like an “Exhaustion Addon” Perk. (That can also be used independently of such).
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@zarr said:
May I suggest using Devour Hope? It's a great perk precisely for the reason that it incentivizes leaving hooks and spreading out hooks, and yet still allowing you to win decisively, giving you that Mori ability.
On the chance however that this topic was created with the silly notion that "slugging is better than hooking" and needing incentives to hook altogether: tunnelling and camping are the strongest, most reliable killing strategies, there can be no greater incentive than that.
What is needed are incentives specifically to not camp and tunnel, as well as some moderate nerfs to those strategies. Perk-based incentives would already go a long way to change up the meta of playstyles. A lot of killer perks could be a lot stronger - as long as the killer isn't tunnelling much. Grim Embrace is a good example of a perk that encourages spreading out hooks, although it still doesn't go far enough as it doesn't actually punish tunnelling, granting the same effect even if you tunnel out one survivor and only then get the fresh hooks on the others. Changing it to something where the time it blocks gens for depends on the number of gens left at the time of each fresh hook would much more directly encourage spreading out hooks from the get-go, as well as punish players that go for the same survivors or stick around hooks, as more gens getting completed in the meantime obviously leads to further fresh hooks granting less blockage.
Similarly, Pain Resonance could regress its gen by a much heftier chunk of progress, but that amount being decreased if any survivor has reached struggle stage. Or it could have a somewhat heftier regression, but be disabled completely if any survivor dies. Pop Goes The Weasel could grant more regression on fresh hooks than consecutive hooks, or just more regression but being disabled once a survivor dies, or yet much more regression but only on the gen furthest from the hook that has progress (which it would highlight for the killer). BBQ could gain tokens again, granting a movement speed increase for every token, but any survivor hitting struggle stage removing a token. It would also be beneficial for it to show the auras of survivors without hook stages only (no distance requirement), until everyone has a hook stage, then as per usual showing all auras beyond 40m. Ruin could grant the 200% base regression again, but be disabled automatically again once a survivor dies, as well as perhaps reduced to 150% once any survivor hits struggle stage. Call Of Brine/Overcharge could increase regression rate by a lot more, scaling with how many survivors are still alive and/or haven't hit struggle. And so on.
There could also be base incentives though, of course. Base kick regression could be increased to half a charge per second, decreasing back to a quarter once any survivor hits struggle stage. Killers could get a permanent movement speed boost, stacking for every fresh hook, as long as no survivor has hit struggle. Or it could simply change the specifics of the Bloodlust mechanic, scaling with fresh hooks (e. g. after the second fresh hook, instead of 15/25/35s, Bloodlust kicks in after 10/20/30s; 5/15/25s on the third fresh hook; and after the fourth fresh hook, the killer constantly has Bloodlust I, Bloodlust II kicking in after 10 seconds, III 20s - once any survivor hits struggle stage, Bloodlust reverts to its normal behaviour; if any survivor dies, Bloodlust is disabled). Pallet-breaking speeds could be increased until a survivor hits struggle stage. There are countless possible ideas for both base and perk-based incentives against tunnelling/camping, that give killers significant power-ups and notable regression/slowdown effects, as long as survivors aren't hitting struggle stage or dying.
Moderate nerfs to camping and tunnelling could also come in many forms, from buffing survivors in those scenarios (showing the aura of the most-recently unhooked survivor to all other survivors, making unhook Endurance unhook invincibility, increasing repair speeds if the killer is around the hook/chasing the most-recently unhooked survivor, or if a survivor has been sacrificed (depending on how many hook stages happened before that point or how many gens got repaired), showing the anti-facecamp meter to all survivors, …) to nerfing killers' ease of employing these strategies, such as by removing the auras of hooks survivors are hanging on, removing the unhook explosion notification, not showing the hook life bar of the survivor to the killer - we just accept that these things are that way, but why are they? They directly encourage and support camping and tunnelling.
This is more from the perspective of this post:
@AssortedSorting said:
Slugging
- Fully self-recovered survivors (95%) can now pick themselves up while directly underneath an Empty Hook.
- They become Broken until they’re next put into the dying state, and suffer Deep Wounds.
- Edit: “Seek Help” once at 95% will now display “Seek Help (Survivor Icon), or risk a bargain (image of a dying state survivor under Hook)”
- Ideally, were the Killer to pickup the survivor in such a position, they would be able to Hook the survivor before the window for flash stuns is available.
This is to provide a last resort self-pickup, such as in the event of a 4-man slug out, or bad/toxic teammates, to better differentiate the dying and the Hooked state, and incentivize Hooks.
Hooked Survivors
- This can be performed on both the first and second stage of sacrifice.
- As their Hook stage progresses, they see the Auras of other hooks slowly appear to them.
- The rate that hooks are revealed, and the distance away from the current hook, are the largest balancing points of this concept.
- While holding the active ability button on Hook, they can focus on another Empty Hook, to link to it (3s hold).
- The aura of this Linked Hook is shown to other survivors.
- The Aura of the Hooked survivor changes while they are linked to another Hook.
- When Unhooked, the Hooked Survivor will spawn under the Linked Hook.
- Performing a self-unhook attempt (or failing a sacrifice skillcheck) while having a Linked Hook, will teleport the survivor onto that Linked Hook, suffering sacrifice acceleration as normal. (This overrides any self-unhook perk like Deliverance or Wicked, and overrides the 4%)
- A Linked Hook can be cleared by tapping the active ability button while Hooked.
- This is disabled in the End-game Collapse.
- Ideally, base-kit Endurance and the existing anti-camp mechanics would be removed from the game.
This gives the Hooked survivor agency, if they feel they are being tunneled, a method of repositioning themselves on the map if unhooked. (As such, being found afterward becomes their own fault).
This gives the Hooked survivor agency, if they see themselves being proxy-camped, or face-camped, to move themselves to another Hook to bypass it, though dependent on the time it takes for a distant Hooks aura to be revealed.
This gives the Hooked survivor a gameplay element to interact with and deliberate upon.
This can condition newer Survivors to not prioritize unhooking a survivor quite so immediately.
Killers can no longer rely on the Hooked survivor being in one place.
Ideally this would also come with buffs for getting multiple Hooks as Killer.
Were proxy-camping/camping made nearly impossible to perform, and tunneling much more reliant of hunting down a survivor, what would you want to see the act of Hooking itself do.
But as to your points on this post:Devour Hope itself is a perk, and while it does offer competitive advantages, and visual flourish with the Mori, it lacks BP gains some might be interested in. It’s also designed around being a hex (and a perk), rather than something baseline. It’s a cool perk though I agree.
Incentives and disincentives are needed, but you need some degree of mechanical inability for some things too, to cover those that do things just for spiteful reasons, or simply due to it being the most efficient method.
Making perks that promote spreading hooks competitive, even meta, can help the issue, but causes a lack of perk diversity and a feeling that you need certain perks to be competitive. And if they’re the same strength as non-spreading perks, the non-spreading perks mean you play with less need to micromanage hook states/multiple chases, therefore being the path of least resistance.
As far as needing to redesign every perk:meta perk to be dynamic regarding hook states, I am not fond of that idea. It becomes convoluted and annoying to learn, making it harder to onboard new players.
The same sentiment with incremental/minute changes to stats for the Killer at base. The powerups need to be simple, obvious, and noticeable at a a glance, otherwise it makes it harder to onboard new players/does not feel impactful.
And the same goes for survivor methods of fighting back against those things.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829523#Comment_3829523
They did a shared hook pool in death garden iirc and it wasn't great.
I've advocated for a hybrid solution in the past: hook donation. Each survivor can choose to put their first hook stage into the shared pool, but not more than that.
So if the killer tunnels one person out, they will have to eat through 6 health stages to kill that survivor. But if they spread pressure it goes faster, because you aren't just waiting for the unhook and the focus goes back to being in chase all the time.
Survivors get the option to be selfish, but in tunneling situations, the best play is to give a hook stage to the team and everyone comes out better for it.
And for killers who apply map pressure and spread hooks, literally nothing changes. It only impacts camping and tunneling.
Keep in mind such a hook donation system would also be used to funnel stages into a good looper while the others played more passive/focused on stealth.
It wouldn’t only be used for altruism to keep a player in.
I’m not wholly against that, but sharing hook stages to become more time efficient by increasing the “average chase time per hook” would necessitate any such transfer of stages having some kind of time-investment.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829523#Comment_3829523
They did a shared hook pool in death garden iirc and it wasn't great.
I've advocated for a hybrid solution in the past: hook donation. Each survivor can choose to put their first hook stage into the shared pool, but not more than that.
So if the killer tunnels one person out, they will have to eat through 6 health stages to kill that survivor. But if they spread pressure it goes faster, because you aren't just waiting for the unhook and the focus goes back to being in chase all the time.
Survivors get the option to be selfish, but in tunneling situations, the best play is to give a hook stage to the team and everyone comes out better for it.
And for killers who apply map pressure and spread hooks, literally nothing changes. It only impacts camping and tunneling.
Deathgardens major issue was that while they had a shared hook pool, the Killer at any time could be like: nah man, and instant Mori a scav they downed. And even then we would see the issue with hook proxy coupled with ranged and that instant Mori.
(Hooks were added in after the fact, and were not part of the original gameplay design of DG)
There was no (basically) guaranteed second or third chance if you got found. So it was a game of mostly hide and seek. With as little action between the hunters and scavs as possible to avoid that instant Mori.
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3 Times is barely enough time for tour MMR to acclimate to your skill with that Killer. Especially if you don’t play serious on other characters.
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I don’t see why it couldn’t trigger while on Hook, but for everything else: Not with Killer Aura reveal: Makes cleansing Totems much safer, healing safer, every action more than 4s safer, and also gaining constant aura pings while not necessarily actively looking for such information.
Far, far too many cases of passively gaining information over a decent area while already in the process of performing “time efficient” actions.
Information is important, and shouldn’t be handwaived away simply because it isn’t as immediately interesting.
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The “checkpoints” on the tokens may make Killers hold back on a hit to make sure they hit the next token. It may also make the Killer annoyed if they “waste” some chase time with a partially full token.
Is there any way to make it more granular? All progress on a partial Token also counts towards partial regression?
For the extra Hook, that may incentivize the Killer to get one Hook on a survivor, one on another, then just returning to Hook the first survivor till out of the game. Now, one extra Hook can be important, but it still only works for one Hook, without addressing the overall kinda sour note of a hard tunnel.
On a personal note, I don’t like that these features function passively: The Tunnel “prevention” is handled by the system against the Killers action (Instead of survivors striving to prevent the killing of a “friend”). And the Chase regression just zaps the Gen with the most progress from a distance without meaningfully adding anything noticeable to gameplay (I wouldn’t call seeing progress removed from your generator as a survivor with no input on your part meaningful). -
I mean TBH I’ve played this game over many years, and I’ve barely even registered it as part of the gameplay system even when I started. Maybe they could add some banners/Icons to certain levels to show off you “devotion”?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829124#Comment_3829124
Yeah, I haven't played at the time but I'm aware of the original effect. Good point.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829154#Comment_3829154
Remnant Solitude sounds like a pretty strong perk on small maps but much less impactful on big maps. Getting value out of it would require a survivor to be somewhat close to that area. Plus, if they see you, the undetectable effect is useless, so you also need some large LoS blockers.
If we compare that to other undetectable perks that is quite niche. On smaller maps on the other hand you would be undectable for pretty much the entire match. I'm not 100% against such a perk but it would be quite a pain to play against on something like Midwich.
Emissary: Telltale sounds like an interesting perk although we are back at aura perks. The general concept of these could be nice though, if we were to redesign them to act like a little trap. Say you put a Blood Raven somewhere and when it is disturbed, the survivor that disturbed it gets some kind of debuff.
I like the general concept a lot, however each Blood Raven would need to have a pretty small range, you would need to be able to place multiple ones (otherwise it would only work for a more territorial play style) and survivors would need some kind of way to get rid of them. At that point it's complex enough to be the foundation of an entire killer power. It would probably also need a downside that Blood Ravens remain inactive for some time when you place them because otherwise it would end up similarly to Skull Merchant's drones where you just place one at whatever loop you are when chasing a survivor.
Graverobber sounds a little difficult to balance. It could be pretty strong on indoor maps. It would probably counter the shack and some of the other strong structures as well. Although that would depend on how many lockers can be affected simultaneously. If it's multiple ones, that could make this perk very strong (although probably not very fun to play against since there is pretty much nothing you can do once you are at a loop with such a locker), if it was only one that would make this perk very niche. Again, I very much like the concept but there would need to be a lot of fine tuning.
I'm not sure what to think of Scourge Hook: Twisted Ties. It would be massively RNG reliant but it could be a pretty powerful perk with a bit of luck.
Honestly, I respect your creativity. These are some very interesting indeas. If you haven't done so, you should definitely make a post in Feedback and Suggestions.
appreciate the kind words, might post those there, and moreso appreciate the feedback, good points.
And in regards to the Aura part of Emissary’s, yeah. Unfortunately the main cornerstones of the game have already been leveraged by many existing perks, don’t think there’s new area to tread: Information, Mobility, Lethality, Delay. At this point it’s a question on how you package everything.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829241#Comment_3829241
How does one "burn through" a flashbang?
Kinda like a firecracker: fuse ignites the payload and it’s gone.
And on a more serious note: they are finite in most use-cases.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828824#Comment_3828824
Thats exactly what everyone tells people that get blinded when looking at a wall with flashbang and what killers got told at that time.
There is a stark difference between:
A scenario in which regardless of how the Killer opened any of the two Lockers, the other Locker Survivor could immediately jump out and blind the Killer, both having time to jump back in, and repeat this process until one ran out of Flashlight charge
And:
A scenario where the Killer is unwilling to engage with chase against the Flashbang survivor, nor try to fake out for a hit, nor just burning through the Flashbang.
That being said I wouldn’t cry if the Flashbang needed to be further in front of the Killer in order to blind them instead of dropping it from behind them.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829030#Comment_3829030
We are talking about killer perks. Territorial perks for killers are generally not a good idea because they would be effective in 3gens and not much else. Maybe on a small map like The Game or Midwich but these maps are already not good for survivors. You generally have very limited capabilities to decide the direction a survivor will run in because they are the one that is running from you, not the other way around.
Seeker perks are fundamentally not in tune with the killer role. Putting a second objective on the killer can only work, if it was somehow stronger than going after survivors. Which would immediately result in the perk either being broken or incredibly weak. Not to mention, that it would take away interaction between the killer and the survivors.
Meme perks are a fine idea, although we do have some of those already. Distressing is mostly a meme perk and though Two Can Play doesn't nerf you directly it's pretty close to a meme perk as well.
Disinformation perks similar to Freddy's dream pallets might sound like a good idea but the problem is that they need some restrictions and are likely not going to work against SWFs (see original Legion concept). These restrictions could either come with these perks being hex perks or something else. Hex perks in general are probably not the best approach anymore. Let's be honest, there is a reason why they are quite unpopular. Other restrictions again are very hard to balance. There is also the issue that as of now 2 killers already have fake pallets (Doctor and Freddy).
I have no idea how you would even attempt to balance an ability overriding perk. Not to mention, that these would also need some restrictions so that you couldn't just dash and immediately get a M1. Otherwise, playing against a Myers or Ghostface would be a horrible time. Exhaustion perks for killers have the same general flaw in concept.
Resource manipulation counts as chase perks. We do have some of these already. Bamboozle, Crowd Control and Blood Favour come to mind. What else would you do? Something like Mage Hand? That's literally a killer power, so that will never happen and with good reason. If it was Mage Hand for windows, that would be horrible to play against and I guarantee you such a perk would be hated. Unless of course it came with a downside so terrible that the perk would never be used. Remote pallet breaking is already a part of Knight's power, so that is not an option either. Not to mention that people would hate such a perk as well.
You only have so many options and you need to keep in mind that these perks could synergise with killer powers. We already know that the devs are not too keen on the idea to ban some perks from specific killers, so that issue can't be disregarded.
Hmm, what about:
Remnant: Solitude - See the Auras of Dull Totems. You can interact with them to create a Remnant: Solitude Totem (Similar to a Rekindled Totem). You gain the Undetectable Status while within 32m of this Totem and for 6/8/10s after leaving it.
(Remnants are cleansed/blessed faster than other Totems and are consumed by The Entity when cleansed.)
Emissary: Telltale - Blood Ravens spawn within the Trial. The Aura of Blood Ravens appear to you within 16m. Interaction with a Blood Raven will reveal the Aura of Survivors within 32m for 10s. Survivors can disturb Blood Ravens, however you will not.
Fair, there are some meme perks.Regarding resource manipulation, that is also fair. Though I was thinking about a perk that introduces a new resource, rather than a removal or blockage of one. Though I don’t know what a Killer resource could be, perhaps:
Graverobber - Searching a locker disturbs a restless spirit. The next time a Survivor moves within 8m in front of this Locker, a Haunt will burst from it. Survivors disturbed by this Haunt will Scream and become Hindered by 10% for 4/5/6s
Scourge Hook: Twisted Ties - After Hooking a Survivor on a scourge Hook, gain a Token. While you have a Token, standing underneath an Empty Scourge Hook allows you to press the Ability Button while looking at another Empty Scourge hook to teleport to that location.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826278#Comment_3826278
That would probably be the best possible change without really changing anything.
However, that's still a flat buff imo. Having essentially a "99d Aura Burst " sounds more consistent and less deadly than current "treat every killer as if they are Ghostface".
I honestly think how unwieldly and dangerous is what's kept this perk balanced; it saves, but it kills! It kills but it saves lol
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we get a nice buff to a perk i thinks insane and I'll live happily ever after. I dare to dream
Well, they could make the scream reveal the survivors location (scream bubble) if making it reveal the aura with few interrupts is too powerful.
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@Xernoton said:
Maybe because there are more than 100 killer perks.
I mean, what do you want a killer perk to do? We have chase perks (though most of them are pretty bad), info perks and slowdown perks. What else is left?
Zone control perks (see boons). Seeker Perks (Searching for a Chest-like Item to interact with it, but for Killer). Meme-able perk like No Mither/Bardic. Disinformation Objective (See Dream Pallets/Mirrored Illusion). Ability Override Perk (see Blighted Serum, arguably Exhaustion Perks). Resource manipulation (See: Any Means Necessary).
You know, speaking of that, the Killer has zero chase resources. Maybe they could include a Perk that lets the player lay down a tripwire trap?
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I mean if they ever do start pushing the idea that all survivors are independent versions of themselves, (and slightly pivoting that the survivors do have some basic retention inside the Trials or at least around the campfire, which can be suppressed when pulled into a Trial proper), they could showcase the banners/emblems in such a manner as if it’s the survivors sharing “scary stories” about their experience around the campfire. And on a meta-level players showing off to others.
I’d be down for it. Possibly not shown to the Killer though from a competitive viewpoint.
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Hmm.
Drawing on some of the examples so far:
Hooking a survivor blocks the nearest generator until they are unhooked.
After every survivor has been Hooked once, gain 10K BP, Hooking every survivor twice awards an additional 10K BP. (Harder, yes, but the BP kept lower given it’s not an expectation. A flat bonus as to not accidentally become multiplicative with large bonuses/be more encapsulated)
(And my addition:) After Hooking Survivors 6 times, the Obsession can be Mori’ed while on Deathhook.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
The problem with this is that if you remove her ability to use auras then Nurses will have no reason not to just run full slowdown. And full slowdown Nurse is way more oppressive than aura Nurse.
She needs to be reworked honestly because her design just breaks the entire game.
Aura/Screams can still be useful at range, to more quickly engage and find priority targets (Be they survivors or generators). Information is a powerful tool if used well.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Genuine question
Do you bring any anti slug perks? If so, which.
I wanna know how many people are actually using existing tools or not.
That’s like asking why a Killer was complaining about the double-locker chain blind loop because they could have brought Lightborn.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/430895/auras
Spirit - Her power deletes surv models from her PoV entirely. They don't block auras. The distinction is important, because genuine aura blocking would disable the ability to see gens and considering how often Nurse needs to blink, that'd be an issue.
Drac/Knight - reuses spirit code
Larry/Twins - This has more merit, but lemme explain why the auras are blocked. Victor and the cams are not considered to be the "killer' which means they have their ability to see auras disabled. Victor, in particular, is extremely buggy in this regard as he's supposed to see gens auras. The workaround here is simply not having any aura perk work when they're not the killer. Nurse, while blinking, is still "the killer." No real loophole to exploit.
Xeno - She can absolutely see auras.
Suppose that could be grounds for an “Oblivious” status for Killers, that just suppresses Survivor auras.
Reuse the Lightburned naming for such an effect.
(Frankly would be needed anyway, if survivors get more information/misinformation warfare tools going forward)
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828788#Comment_3828788
Remember that using aura perks means you don’t have any gen regression. Even if chases are lethal you can always die in corners and brute force rush gens. Especially since the HUD update you know exactly if your teammates are keeping the Nurse busy. If the Nurse starts to make mistakes gens are going to fly fast.
The 2 perks you are probably talking about are nowhere to hide and predator.
- nowhere to hide : just pre leave gens. She won’t get the info. Don’t show yourself for no reason, I see a lot people do that mistake. Nurse slow walking speed means she has to use her power even to check if a survivor is behind a rock. It adds up and waste a lot of time for her.
- predator : that’s another perk slot on aura reading. If you see the nurse breaking chase get as much distance as you can. Usually the Nurse has to stop because walking into the survivor scratchmarks keeps the chase going. Yes, she will get info on the first blink but it is always the point of the first blink to get info and the 2nd blink to secure the hit. This perk is only shining on indoor maps. On any open map it doesn’t add anything new.If regression perks are the end-all be-all for competitive play, they, or the aura perks, have design issues.
And yes, macro play is important, when to hook, who to target, what gens to check and ignore.
And to echo you, the key word is “if” the nurse makes mistakes. Which is exactly what Aura Perks are helping to diminish (at least in chase) by providing more accurate information on her 1st blink.
Regarding nowhere to hide: Max range blinks on gens, the benefit of mobility to overcome the distance lost with the fatigue and to get a jump on survivors, possibly seeing them first even without needing to use nowhere to hide.
Predator: well, she already walks slow, try to walk away from the scratch marks/around a wall, tailor your movement to end the chase fast without losing too much distance through alternate pathing.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828474#Comment_3828474
Your idea with the open chests at the start of the Trial actually fixes the issue of my first idea where the Perk does nothing if the Survivors don't interact with chests!
I also really like your idea, a nice blend of all ideas in one!
Can’t say it’s my idea, just an iteration on yours from your suggestion with some parts of critique modifying it.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828572#Comment_3828572
Imaging what the "1%" can do with theses killers (just some examples) : Singularity, Spirit, Oni, Sadako. I know a lot of content creators who have insane winstreaks with them. They destroy lobbies. Do theses killers need nerfs ? No.
So the argument that nurse in oppressive in the right hands can be applied to any decent killer.But for some reason, because the Nurse has a very unique power and is countered by line of sight instead of camping pallets (and running to shack for noobs), people are obsessed with the idea of nerfing her.
Again, learn her counterplay.Yes, Nurse does have a very unique power.
I actually like playing against Nurse: Where do I get the most line of sight blocks (instead of where the most pallets/vaults are)? If she’s far away, do I think she’ll try to blink on/in front of me/behind me? Where can I navigate to, to take advantage of blink travel time? Is she just going to try and consistently blink slightly behind me/cutoff paths to coral me to try and cut distance until she can get on top of me?
Unlike almost all other Killers that see Auras, she can blink onto them. Unlike most Killers, she is expected to use her Power for basic map traversal, and all chases. That is basically how she moves for any significant or timely distance.
I don’t mind Nurse using Auras to blink to faraway survivors as part of the mobility aspect of her Power (accomplished by looking at an aura before charging, then just sending it max distance that way), but what’s problematic is when she sees auras of Survivors she’s trying to blink at, as it removes a lot of the counterplay of double-backs behind cover and the like.
It’d be like introducing perks that made the killer able to walk through/ignore collision of vaults and pallets , only if a survivor used them recently.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828480#Comment_3828480
Meaningless statistics to you. You have a problem with reality because kill rates mean something.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828493#Comment_3828493
So she is hard to play.
"But with her Power she can cut out basically all chase tools if she lands on top of the survivor"
The key word is "if". Guess what, most players can’t.
You ALL need to wake up here and open your eyes. MOST players can’t, that’s why her win rate across all MMR is so low.And even at TOP 5%, she is similar to other killers because even at this level players are not good enough to make her oppressive.
She SEEMS oppressive but as long as you manage to keep her busy her chase time will be similar to what any other killer could have done. But it doesn’t FEEL fair, so you have to come here and ask for nerfs. That’s quite pathetic.
But again, at the end of the day, stats don’t lie.
If she was that crazy broken like you keep claiming, her win rate at TOP 5% would be close to 80-90% but is it not.So for who are we balancing the game ?
The 0.1% or the 99.9% ?Yes, the key word is “if”.
That’s why I said she has a high skill floor.
She’s a feast or famine Killer entirely reliant on precision, benefiting heavily from excellent execution.
That is her playstyle niche, her design, and what is to be demanded, but not expected.
She’s the Killer designed for the “1%”.
(If you want to add some addons that retrofit her kit into something more easily used, go ahead, but I’d move that stuff to lower rarity addons instead of being iridescent like matchbook. In fact, make matchbook a yellow or something).
But make no mistake, made easier to play, her power would eventually still fall under scrutiny for its interaction with Auras while charging her Blink.
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@OrangeBear said:
Woah! Was not expecting this. Have greatly appreciated his communications over the past few years. I wonder what his new job is?
I honestly didn’t know he was a CM. I just missattributed him as being a dev given the forum tag on his comments. Maybe he found a more “devvy” role given he’s still on the DBD team. Wonder what department.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
Because of how strong and easy tunneling is compared to spreading hooks, there is no real incentive that would make spreading hooks better than tunneling without flat-out breaking the game if the killer chooses to tunnel. So any incentives would have to come after huge tunnel prevention changes.
But ignoring that (we could always push incentives first and see how bad it gets), basekit 60s of gen blocking on the generator closest to the hook and a 10 or 15% pop after hooking a survivor you haven't hooked in a row. Now I don't have to worry about someone insta unhooking and two-manning a nearly completed gen by the hook, and I get a little incentive to go away and apply my pop somewhere else. The gen blockage also means I'm disincentivized from camping the gen by the hook or hooking by a gen to pop and then camp it.
Oh. Ooh.
Strategic Hook placement allowing you to potentially block a desired generator, especially if you spec into carry perks (which are generally kinda lacking), which can also play a part in retaining the concept of strategic hooking that will likely be damaged with any anti-tunneling base-kit changes.
I really like that.
And there’s no harm in trying to workshop ideas on the incentives with the nerfs, to better “appease” both sides with a simultaneous change on such an impactful topic.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828471#Comment_3828471
i disagree. i don't think counter-play to nurse is line of sight. the counter-play to nurse is distance. the more distance, the better. it is because it takes longer charge blinks and there is longer travel time between nurse going from point A to point B. The longer her teleport takes to get to you, the more estimation the nurse has to do to land somewhere near you on the first blink. If she over-estimates the blink, she moves too far and you can double back the nurse blink making her 2nd blink out of range. If she is under-estimates her first blink than you have a better chance to outplay her 2nd blink because 2nd blink has limited range of 10 meters. This is also why Ranged add-on for Nurse were super powerful, especially first iteration because higher range meant less charge time per distance gained so you needed to be further to mindgame nurse.
From playing vs really strong nurse players, i don't think obstacles do anything vs good nurses because even smallest amount of line of sight vision allows nurse to backtrack where survivor is going. It is little bit like how chucky has that ability where you can see footsteps on floor and it tells where chucky is going to be. It is kinda like that for strong Nurse players. they can kinda tell where survivor is across the wall without seeing you. The fancy word for this is Object Permanence.
they don't want to buff Human greed to have longer range or longer aura read because survivors will complain about killers having too much aura reading. I hate this balancing for like bad players but whatever.
From playing vs really strong nurse players, i don't think obstacles do anything vs good nurses because even smallest amount of line of sight vision allows nurse to backtrack where survivor is going.
Is an Aura not “(the) smallest line of sight (of) vision”?
The estimation is part of the learning curve of the power, which an Aura read allows you to refine with an exact position, allowing your second blink to be even more precise. (Because she gets a mulligan for whatever reason).
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@Murgleïs said:
Because like it or not, Nurse has one of the worse winrate. Plus her win rate at high MMR is not that good. Just check all the official stats the dev gave us.
Sure, there is one good content creator with more than 8000h on her, and pro scene experience destroying public lobbies with her but does that mean for the majority of the player base she is crazy broken ? No.She was already nerfed by the fact that her attacks are now special so please leave her alone.
She has the worst win-rate because her kit is entirely reliant on mastering her power, as her base movespeed is 3.85m/s (she’s slower than survivors even), with basic chase she has nothing.
But with her Power she can cut out basically all chase tools if she lands on top of the survivor, which is where her strength lies.
A High skill-floor Killer.
Ironically, attributing misogyny to try to protect her because of perceived weakness, just from stats themselves, is a subtle form of misogyny derived from the bias of “Women are weak” used to structure your initial claim of misogyny in the first place, lol.
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It shows an AoE danger zone you can move out of, and you can just imagine like he still sees you and act accordingly.
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@Sandt1985 said:
You can see auras in tunnels when playing as xeno
Xeno’s power is still designed around dealing with his tail in chase, not his tunnels.
You can’t pop up directly underneath the survivor like a mole, and immediately attack either, which Nurse can do with a blink directly ontop of Survivors.
I mean Pyramid Head with “I’m all ears” still needs to contend with his PoTD propagation wave being designed around survivors having a chance of sidestepping it in the open.
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Regarding the suggestion:
This still punishes survivors for “wasting time”, with the empty chests, and removes a new interaction for the Killer with a map object.I like it becoming a Perk that populates the map with more interactables though, the reduction of overall aura clutter, and an opportunity/objective aura with the closure of the chest triggering a large aura reveal.
My suggestion:
- See the Auras of Open Chests
- Spawns two Open Chests at the start of the Trial
- Can close Open chests
- See the Aura of Survivors within 8ms of Open or Closed Chests
- Closing an Open Chest reveals the Aura of Survivors within 32m
The Open Chests at the start give a base minimum value to the spark even if Survivors don’t touch chests. Also acting as a Tell that the Perk is in play. This Tell is important, as survivors now have knowledge that chests are dangerous to be around, but also that they can lure the Killer to them with their Aura, or lure them towards an open Chest.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/430994/human-greed-needs-changes
the number are low because nurse can use the perk to get wall-hacks through out the map. paired with hoarder and lethal pursuer, you get 5 seconds of aura reading.
human greed sucks as a perk and should get buffed but they won't buff it because people will whine that it is too good on nurse just like people complain that "Predator" is too good on nurse.
nevertheless, the build still exists…. lethal, human greed, hoarder, predator. aura reading in chase all day for nurse.
You know the funny thing?
Aura reading on Nurse while she charges her Power technically enters the realm of “Perks interacting with a Killers Power”.
Her counter-play is line of sight blocking, since her mobility power can ignore obstacles, her counterplay is making it ambiguous as to your direction to avoid her teleport endpoint. And Aura Perks remove that counterplay, therefore interacting with the basic counterplay mechanics of her Power.
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@Lixadonna said:
You shouldn't need to be further incentivized by something that already awards Bloodpoints and Emblem.
I’d say that survivors should also just be happy sitting and repairing generators while only one or two people on their team engage in chase/get camped and be content with the fact that they won and got good Lightbbringer emblems, but I don’t think that’s the general sentiment.
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@Akumakaji said:
Bring back old BBQs blood point bonus as basekit, but only increase the counter as long as all survivors are alive, heck we could also just go higher and higher till 8 hooking everyone.
We could also maybe give it an old Grim Embrace like effect once the killer hooked every survivor for the first time, blocking or regressing the gens in the match - but only if no survivor died by that point. The idea is to give the killer a tangible boon for spreading hooks and not tunneling a survivor out ASAP.
Totally.
that’s one facet of gameplay can be targeted: points/currency.
Some people like visual/audio spectacle, others points, some a competitive advantage, many a combination of things.
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@AetherBytes said:
tbh I'd be happy just giving me info on what gen is closest to completion. I know where survivors are likely to be and where I need to defend.
Ya know, given that the Killers position is globally revealed to all Survivors when the Survivor is placed on Hook (survivors Hook notification), I’d even like that kinda change just for a tit-for-tat kinda reasoning.
It’d also toss in a dynamic of uncertainty:
If everyone is in the know that the Killer sees the Gen with the most progress after a Hook, they could be wary of that and try to stealth early, or caught off-guard if the Killer goes elsewhere. And all survivors know which Gen is and isn’t the one with the most progress (at least of theirs is or not) thanks to the HUD. (Only some small edge cases if a Gen is left at high-progress will survivors information become faulty)
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Hope that goes well for him!
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It does from time to time. It’s dependent on the number of players within your MMR range and/or the number of players in a given role.
This means it can fluctuate, change, depending on player demographics.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827718#Comment_3827718
They do, and that's why I don't think this is necessary. Technically speaking you can force survivors into the Dream World, it's just part of the basic gameplay loop instead of a dedicated ability.
There would be benefits to a manual Nyquil Beam like he used to have, since it'd push survivors into tripping snares more often to make getting a hit easier, but it's not required. It's just an idea for the people holding the opinion that any kind of reversion is a good idea.
Well, a basic attack causing the survivor to enter the dream world is a “manual method” of forcing them into the dream world.
But I assume you mean a more “fire-and-forget” ranged (specifically) ability to make them sleepy?
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@jesterkind said:
I see a lot of people who want elements of Old Freddy to return, but I think some of those takes may be a little underdeveloped. 90% of what he used to be just flat out shouldn't return for obvious reasons, and the remaining 10% would feel a little arbitrary.
Rather, I'd like to see him move forward with his current design, since it's better and more thematic. I've made posts about what I'd want to see before, but I think ultimately I want these three things the most:
- Snares and Pallets become basekit together, swapping between them and sharing an ammo pool for both like Clown's bottles.
- Massive rework and overhaul to his addons that focus on giving him more illusory objects in the dream world, all of which disappear when touched and cause the survivor to scream. Higher rarity addons can give extra effects as well, befitting their rarity.
- Freddy can teleport to completed generators. Always been annoying he can't do this.
While there are a few more tweaks that might be helpful - number tweaks to channelling time or movement speed and the like, or other small elements like that - those are the main things I'm hoping for. If we get those, everything else is just icing.
The only remaining thing from his original design that could come back, the 10% I referred to above, is a way of manually forcing survivors into the Dream World, and I wouldn't mind seeing that since it'd complement his current design fairly well. To do this, I'm imagining the devs would have to give him something like a Vecna spell wheel, where he selects between his illusory objects, his teleport, and the manual Dream World ability. Maybe that'd be too complex, maybe not, who can say. It's not necessary but it would be a nice nod towards his original power.
Don’t basic attacks force survivors into the dream world currently?
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@Toybasher said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825880#Comment_3825880
Where was it confirmed OG Freddy isn't coming back? I am hoping we get something closer to a blend of new Freddy's "he can use powers to effect survivors in the dream world" and old Freddy's "The dream world is oppressive and survivors want to wake up asap, but Freddy is weak if survivors can stay awake". I really hope they take inspiration from the void and make Freddy able to teleport survivors and himself into a separate dream world to 1v1 them. Or add fake gens, fake totems, etc. in the dream world, etc. Point is new freddy's dream world is really wimpy especially since the slowdown addons got removed and puddles and pallets were both nerfed. He also no longer sees asleep survivors auras, which I thought made him great for target-switching and juggling survivors mid-chase to keep people off gens.
I don't want a straight revert to old Freddy because he was unhealthy for the game even though I enjoyed his playstyle, but I want a rework to take at least a few design ideas from old Freddy with a dream world survivors actively want to stay out of. Also, Freddy needs to not have his aura shown to awake survivors. He turns invisible when he's far enough away from them, but his aura can still be read if the survivor is awake which is really bizarre. (Old Freddy didn't have that problem. Not sure if it's just a bug/oversight or intentional design choice.)
As you said I do think they're going to combine puddles and pallets at the very least, it's dumb we have killers like Clown and Vecna who have multiple powers they can swap between mid-match, but Freddy has to bring an addon to REPLACE his puddles with pallets, which means if you prefer pallets you effectively have 1 addon slot with Freddy. I also think his teleport might be changed.
I also suspect his addons are getting HEAVILY reworked. Freddy's addons are almost all garbage, like "Show a survivor's aura when they fail a skill check when asleep" or "fake pallets, when dropped, show the survivor's aura for 1/2/3 extra seconds" etc. He has a few good/fun addons (red paint brush, black box, pill bottle, although pill bottle is more of a silly addon then a serious one) but so many of his addons are filler or not useful.
Also, Freddy's lullaby in the dream world might need some tweaks. Paradoxically, a Freddy running a full stealth build is actually at a disadvantage if survivors stay asleep, as the lullaby is not effected by the terror radius perks. Survivors are oblivious, which means they don't hear the TR, but the lullaby still gives a 32 meter radius of perception. Maybe some of the addons could effect his lullaby.
We don’t know exactly if they mean the dream world as a concept, or the OG mechanical implementation.
For all we know they could make Freddy and the Survivors at base “in the dream world”, so he can setup illusionary obstacles and have supernatural powers, and via some criteria (such as interacting too much with his traps, or by not interacting with their clock) fall into REM sleep (deeper sleep), and Freddy’s sub-basement realm where he’ll be able to quickly engage with the Survivor, should he so choose.
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@Rudjohns said:
Plot Twist + Inner Focus + SWF (Because it only works with swf)
Since Plot Twist can only be used once during main game and once during end game, it was really necessary to nerf Inner Focus because of this playstyle, you know, a teammate with Plot Twist needs a 2nd teammate healing them from the ground so they can use Plot Twist again so the 3rd teammate have wall hacks on the killer. 3 survivors doing something for just a single purpose, only 1 survivor supposedly doing gens. It's way too strong.So you see no problem with perk combos that throw the match for possibly two other randoms?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827439#Comment_3827439
There is a bug that sometimes happens with the void crystals. Normally, when shattered they emit this smoke sphere and erase the survivors scratch marks for a while, but when the bug happens, the survivor in question won't leave scratch marks for the rest of the trial, pretty nasty.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827428#Comment_3827428
It WAS strong in that situation by cutting the chase short, yes, but beforehand the killer had to enter the void, move their phat ass up that stairs and deliver some void energy and come all the way back - three channeling animations and lots of traverse time that could very easily translate of up to 1min of gen time or even more being deleted; the alternative being that the killer only enters the void when they are already winning or killed off two survivors.
The void is SUCH a devastating and huge timesink for killers, that the ability they got should at least be somewhat worth the effort … but it isn't, and now even less then before. In theory this is okay, its "just" a goofy little event - but survivors most of the time don't slack and go easy on the killers either, so its just as sweaty, if not more so, then ever.
While it felt "unfair" and "uncounterable" that the killer could 1-2-tap you with the clever application of a hunt, they already paid upfront for that chance by wasting an extraordinary amount of time in the void. The void time isn't equal and every second spend there is painfully felt by the killer.
Now I don't see any incentive to actually going there, unless the game is already in my pocked. And thats a pretty sad event, when one side of the party isn't allowed to play.
Eh, I’ve had some nice portal spawns that were right next to cross-map generators. Let me patrol with fewer double-backs.
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@radiantHero23 said:
Sadly not old Freddy returning.
I sincerely hope that they at least implement features of old Freddy to make the killer more interesting of an experience.
From what I remember, the hallmarks of old Freddy were: The ability to have cross-map aura read, passive slowdown akin to Pentimento, and delay before a chase can start, but absolute invisibility until a survivor is tagged to enter the dreamworld.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827293#Comment_3827293
Right, but escaping the chase is extremely contrived in this case.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827298#Comment_3827298
I can't really help that it annoys me. The only way I can get this Yun-Jin skin is to play the event. Otherwise I wouldn't touch it. I'd buy the skin outright if it meant I didn't have to see any more smoke bombs.
Yeah I get that, contrived in the sense you get bamboozled (both by definition of the word, and a similar situation as the DBD Perk from the survivors perspective), and are left there going “whelp, alright then”.
But that kind of thing can be countered by information perks, Aura reading Perks like Predator that fit exactly into that niche. Or perks like Ultimate Weapon.
It could be the advent of a new meta.
It’s probably why so many Killer Aura/Information Perks have been Buffed.
Survivors are very likely going to get more chase tools in the future that can help them disengage.
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I have heard about that. Survivors no longer creating scratch marks for the rest of the Trial.
But that’s more obviously a bug and not something to seriously consider as intended design. Arguing around it as a serious point is argument in bad faith.
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@maipace said:
I see.
It certainly is hard to be deprived of the means to fight back.So what do you think about the problem of the survivor's scars completely disappearing during that ritual when the smoke screen is used?
This is obviously not normal behavior, and from the killer's side, the means of counterattack to pursue the survivor has been taken away, but I would like to hear your opinion.
If the Haunt was intended for pseudo Exposed status it wouldn’t have included a ranged portion.
The Haunt/M1 combo is a bit jank.
Go ahead and argue that the Killer power this event feels somewhat lackluster. I feel that way given it can’t go over vaults/pallets, nor does a near-miss provide much value apart from a scream (instead of something like revealing survivors Aura for a few seconds).
But it’s not like you’ve suddenly lost the ability to be able to walk or to try and critically think about possible avenues of escape for the survivor.If the Killers Haunt provided an AoE Aura reveal at the end of its path (hit or miss), there you go:
Now you have a tool that can be used to get hits in at range when you otherwise couldn’t, or to counteract the Survivors Smokebomb by chucking it into the smoke and revealing their Aura.
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Even if someone is smart, if they can’t explain something otherworldly it’s new ground they’re treading. And if they can’t control something/there’s something they must confront to continue (and it’s actively a threat), it can still evoke a sense of powerlessness and being hunted, placing yourself in a vulnerable position.
I’d look at Alien as an example.
And hell, there’s always the horror where while your logic was sound, there were unknowns that caused you to be wrong, and dealing with those consequences.
This comes up a lot in Sci-Fi
(But I’m heavily biased towards Sci-Fi anyway as I grew up with that).
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Frequency is a concern, not that I can comment well on that though.
… But part of a chase is one party trying, at least, to escape…
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826877#Comment_3826877
Because it is something that I've been wanting and requesting for years.
I'm allowed to get disappointed by the fact my favorite killer in DBD isn't coming back.
Ooh, you mean mechanics, not the Character in general.
Gotcha.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826255#Comment_3826255
Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy the new Freddy changes.
I'll offer a ton of feedback, that I can assure you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826225#Comment_3826225
I agree completely.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826223#Comment_3826223
If I was, then I'd have never offered solutions to the problems I've found with Freddy, simply because being "blinded" by nostalgia would prevent me from ever finding those problems in the first place.
Then what’s with the doom and gloom about not returning his power back to the first iteration, instead of promoting what you like to see with a new iteration?