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Survivor Blindness is more about a lack of spatial awareness.
Disregarding that, what Perks do you think should be reconsidered?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310056#Comment_3310056
That's the thing. DBD has a delicate balance, and too much weight can cause the whole thing to crash and burn, a slight nudge can cause several parts to bend.
If you introduce more LoS blockers to better deal with Nurse, ranged killers like Huntress get harmed, vice versa since too little LoS blockers help Nurse, and I really feel like people ignore that.
I think the only areas that could get more LoS blockers would be the edge of the map, areas that dont affect Huntress but CAN affect Nurse (considering that the edge of the map is already the best area to run her).
May I introduce the idea of the Bush or tall shrub.
Things can pass through it, but you don't see through it.
But also yeah, that is a point of concern if they just use solid objects.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3282761#Comment_3282761
I mean... we have bots. Besides, Fortnite of all games has a story mode thing.
Fortnite started with the story mode. It hopped on the Battle Royal Fad and just got lucky, but certainly rolled with it in a big way.
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On the bright side, it means you have more time to learn her counterplay!
Assuming the map has enough LoS blockers that is, lol.
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@Emeal said:
Everyone is talking about punishing tunneling, but nobody is talking about how Killers can barely do anything else. Just had a game with all gens done in 4 downs, like how am I supposed to do anything?
Suck it up and keep going for 12 Hooks until your MMR settles to it like I did to allow easier experimentation on my build by allowing my leeway to go hard or to ease off without needing to be "On" for the entire match. And also there will be odd matches out but that's an issue for both sides.
@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309871#Comment_3309871
From a purely numerical standpoint, most of the players of the game are survivor players. Many of this larger number play exclusively survivor. This leads to easier traction for ideas that are seen as survivor-friendly and a disproportionate number of ideas that are punitive toward killers.
In short I wouldn't sweat it.
And from a player satisfaction standpoint tunneling isn't very user friendly, nor is it engaging, and it actively leads Killers into a cycle of overestimation of their own skill and it's also noted as a pain point for a majority of users as you state.
@Crowman said:
Punishing tunneling doesn't make sense in a game where the design rewards killers to remove a player quickly. You would have to completely change the game to the point that you are making a new game if you wanted to get rid of tunneling.
In which case there's no guarantee the new game will be as successful as the current one, so there's little reason to undertake such a huge change.
So you move the reward to another aspect of gameplay and place a disincentive where there once was an incentive (so it's more obvious that "hey, this isn't the best method"). Hence the: "Get an Instadown and Mori for Multi-hooking, and if you focus one by one, the Survivor can get a Key for Hatch." suggestion.
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Survivors should have no control over where they teleport, teleport points cannot be setup by survivors, the points of teleportation should be limited, have a small delay to use, and the point of origin should be in a dangerous spot. Killers should also be able to disable or use the teleport.
If I were to do a quick and dirty example it’d be something like:
With this Perk Equipped, you can perform a rummage action in The Basement Chest. It opens a rift floating above the open Chest. The Survivor can perform another Rummage Action on any other Chest in the Trial to open a connecting rift.
Rifts outside of The Basement teleport into the Basement. Rifts inside the basement randomly choose an exit rift (if any).
Both Survivors and Killers can interact with the Rift, with a small action delay, and Killers have the option to close the rift.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305645#Comment_3305645
Because you should not be able to force the killer to do anything, much less in a way that allows you to do it without any pressure as you can stop the hook timer and put him in a lose/lose situation. It had being explained many times by now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305485#Comment_3305485
Only if you are one of those survivors that try the unhook 3 meters away of the killer and believes the only right thing for the killer to do is just ignore it and go away. If I have the intention to not camping but you come to the rescue not a second after I hook, why I should leave and let you do the save for free? Because your survivor's morals guidebook?
What if I didn't camp but the hook timer is just seconds away to be completed and I see two of you are going to rescue, should I just start chasing one and let the other unhook because that was your plan and killer should make survivor feel good and don't play to win? Should the game stop the timer in that moment so you are guaranteed to do the save without harm or pressure even if you didn't come to do it earlier?
Seriously, both of you sound at this point like you want to have the right to do the save or be saved with the killer being unable to do something to stop it, because I think @Stabby_Widdershins explained pretty well that this was what happened when they implemented that mechanic and survivors abused it.
Don't forget that a "hang time" penalty for Killers was largely esoteric and wouldn't address the simple fact that a Hooked Survivor is the easiest source of interaction for the Killer bar none.
If a Survivor gets killed too early, the Killer can steamroll. Even them, survivors are conditioned to rescue their teamates if escape isn't readily available.
Hell, Reassurance is the literal perk equivalence of that mechanic, and you're only really only going to see it it high level play cause joe schmoe aint gonna care about it.
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I don't know who to be more disappointed with: The one with the financial means to do such a thing using it for such a thing, the person setting a facade whose morals were purchasable from the start, or the artist themselves for illustrating such a scenario, or myself for assuming such a scenario to begin with...
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If a Killer wants to just camp out a single survivor out of spite, let them do it.
The issue is how effective this is in getting 4Ks as well as how gorram boring it is for that single survivor.
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Marvelous Engineering
Overpowered. To many uses for a single perk slot.
Isolation
Reword to " It's a quite life out here. I prefer it that way"
Durable Generator: Restoration
An Obsession Mechanic for Survivor objectives. I'd recommend using similar terminology to make the mechanic more transferrable between roles, from a user experience standpoint
I'd also make this more of an effect while interacting with the obsession object. Not as a reward for completing it early. Leaves room for a Perk that can transfer this "Obsession"
Trip Wire
Instead of a Stun, reveal the Killers Aura for a duration.
Bull Rush
I've suggested as much before, but arguably no one likes being put into a position of uncontrollability, especially the role where it's implied you're in control.
probably remove this.
Ledge-Grabber
Sure. Make the pullup also cause a notification so it can more easily be balanced with loop layouts.
Durable GenL TaN
No perma trial buffs. Make it something like Grunts of pain are reduced completely when repairing and for a duration after (on a focused Objective)
Entombed
Remove the early entity block. It's a do or die. You dont get to cut it short.
Weathered and Ruggadized
Until Hinder becomes a staple debuff for Killers, I'd say no.
Foraging
Make a Med-kit spawn at the Totem, if all else, will need to consider the edge case in which a Surv already has an item
Hard Reset
remove perma buff.
A skill-check being applied to all others is a bit unintuitive for soloQ. Consolidate the effect to the same Gen. The tell for a Killer is a Survivor that keeps going back to the same gen. How could you make that beneficial for an "Obsessions' Objective"?
Reinvigorate
Easier to code if effects are applied on an action completion.
Boon: Ghost in the machine
Passive gen repair: No. It's a gimmick, and if ever made effective: uninteractive.
Passive Gen regression protection: sure. Sounds should alert the Killer to a nearby Gen. (If not a permutation on the gen spark to alert the Killer that something is off)
Shrine of Blood
This seems OP in SWF and a pain in the arse SoloQ. Try not to include free health states with no input required.
Durable Gen -Lightbringer
So how does this stack if all Gens have this marked?
Anyway, no passive buffs on Objective completion.
-------------------Killer Perks-------------------------
Sins of the many
Unobservable for the majority and for the majority also a pain in the ass to derive. And when it does work feels like total ass, given that there is no solo counterplay.
Condolences
Remove the penalty for survivors when the obsession is Killed. The Obsession instead has reduced repair/healing speed for every Injured Survivor.
Hex: Deed to the Land
Block Vaults outside of the Hooked Survivor at a range of 48/40/32m
No Cleanse effect, but isn't shown as a Curse until a Survivor is Hooked.
Obsessed with you
I don't like how this is more or less reliant on the Nemesis Perk (In name)
Dark Web
Only inside Terror Radius. I actually see this one being a potential Perk introduced as is.
Hex: Always on Edge
Remove skill-check condition. Make it occur periodically for any Survivor not in chase.
Skill-check successes are normal.
Static Charge -> Double Tap
A Perk that reoccurs a Regression Event could be a possibility.
Hex: Dry Winds
Just make it so that Exhaustion does not decay while this Hex is active. Makes it useful against all Exhaustion Perks apart from just DH. Hexes being active from the start are a discussion for another thread.
Deadly Attraction
Kinda a dupe of a Nurse's Calling, with additional powercreep. Don't think it's necessary.
Hex: Full Moon
The seed for a Hex that must build up before activation is here. I don't think the effects are worth it though.
Hex New Moon
Dupe of the Dredge Nightfall. Scrap it.
Animal Instincts
Deactivation condition is pointless. On Down makes it a snowball Perk. Restraint it to On Injure, and make it Killer Instinct on nearest Survivor.
Contagious Malaise
No. Shisse for SoloQ. Also spreading Survivors is detrimental for Killer.
Alone in the Dark
All Survivors with no other Survivors nearby scream. No Broken Status.
Bleed for Me
Passive on Injure. Make it active on injur akin to Pop.
Ommetaphobia
Only for Survivors in an active chase. (To combat corner campers)
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304022#Comment_3304022
I would adding further to his line.
Smart survivors know first chase is important, they will predrop and W. Now Im sure killers dont see thats smart.
Which is correct, it isnt smart, but easy and effective. Exactly the same to tunneling and camping.
Still kinda wish that Survivors didn't have all the Map chase resources pre setup for them at the start of the Trial. Would be interesting if Survivors did have to choose where and when to place Pallets.
Akin to how Defenders need to setup reinforced walls in R6 Siege.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303751#Comment_3303751
So what ? That’s a good thing anyways. It’s good for a smart killer to be matched against good survivors. This way he can improve and learn how to beat them. It’s not like mindgames are hard to learn either.
Assuming that the player has the time to get better, and isn't playing sparsely and set in their ways.
Even then, smart play doesn't equate to engaging gameplay, nor would I call camping or tunneling smart. It just so happens that following the carrot (The Survivor) for any kind of sense of match progression usually results in camping/tunneling. It's not like the game gives Killers any incentive to go for other Survivors.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303709#Comment_3303709
I am not complaing when survivors are good. I mostly play survivor now anyways. Good for them. Just tired of the double standard.
- Good survivor = skill, fun, fair
- Good killer = ruining the game, carried by X perk, Y addon, Z strat.
Tunneling and proxycamp are fine. When you don’t hide from the killer and make yourself an easy target because you can’t loop, that’s not the killer playing dirty, it’s you being bad at the game. Or your teamates because they don’t take hits for you.
Back in the days, when rank matchmaking was still a thing, a friend of mine got matched against Otz. He played very "fair", yet my friend called him a dog tunneler in the end game chat, only to realized it was Otz streaming lmao. You guys have to realize tunneling, camping and boring / zzz are copium words for survivors.
This thread isn’t saying that proxy/tunnel shouldn’t be a strategy (and a survivor being out of place is different than proxy until hook notification and chasing them), but that if you rely on it too much (to the point of starting off with it every match) you’re going to be inappropriately matched up with loopers at a higher skill level. And your games are gonna suck hard and it’ll feel like the survivors are OP when in reality it’s that you’re lacking in other areas of gameplay.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303639#Comment_3303639
In my opinion, tunneling and camping should not exist, at all. The game should be designed to make it impossible to do. And at the same time buff other killer aspects such as gen speed and loops. I am okay with spending more time on a gen or having to loop better if I am guaranteed to be free from tunneling and camping.
I am not against guarding hook or focusing one survivor.
Though I am against the disproportionate impact removing one survivor from the game early has, compared to going through multiple survivors.
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@I_CAME said:
Make the MMR tighter and you will see less tunneling. They need to take MMR back to where it was when the system released. Even if it means slightly longer matchmaking queues. I used to favor faster matchmaking but the amount of mismatches i've seen has changed my mind. When MMR was released if you played like a sweat then you got matched with survivors who also played like sweats. You were much more likely to get matched with juicer squads if you 4K'd often. I was balls deep in my killer main phase at that point so I know from experience that games used to be significantly harder. It's much harder to pull off cheese tactics against good teams. Unfortunately killer mains cried that the game was too hard and Behavior caved to their demands for an easier system. If people want to play every killer game like their life is on the line then why shouldn't they get matched with top tier survivors? The current matchmaking is far too loose and it leads to killers getting bad players they can easily tunnel out. Nearly every game is a killer immediately hard tunneling the least experienced survivor who realistically should not even be in that game to begin with.
MMR restrictions will not really impact tunneling/camping, especially if a player is already doing that.
Why take a harder route when you could take the path of least resistance?
@Murgleïs said:
Blablabla. Watch any tournament et find me one killer who is not tunneling or proxycamping at some point (and is not nurse or blight).
"But you don’t have to sweat !! Play chill"
Don’t force people to play the way you want. The survivor rulebook is getting boring.
These strats are only a problem for some survivors, the ones who are bad, can’t loop and take the L.
Chill or not, if all you do is camp and tunnel and complain that survivors are OP, you dug your own hole.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303615#Comment_3303615
The soft cap is a maximum rating for matchmaking purposes, so it's immediate. For example, if the cap is 2000 and you have a 2300 rating, when you enter the queue the matchmaker will pretend you have a 2000 rating, which means it could put someone at 1950 in your lobby and it thinks that's a good match, when you're a far better player.
Hmm. Sounds more like a matchmaking Hard Cap, if MMR hits a wall after a point.
Would have expected something more like: After the Soft Cap, upper and lower bounds for search ranges expand much faster, with the lower bound resuming standard search expansion once reaching below the Soft Cap.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
It's a factor, but the leading cause is the MMR soft cap that pretends everyone over a certain rating has the same rating.
I recall one of the DBD devs making an offhand remark in one of their videos about how they use modified Glicko for MMR. Glicko takes into account the frequency of recent play to determine the certainty of a player's rating. The more they've played, the more certain their rating and so the less it moves each game; the less they've played, the less certain their rating and so the more it moves each game. For a player with few recent matches, Glicko can easily make adjustments of over 200 rating points from a single match result.
The theory is similar to that of the binary search algorithm: you make large changes at first to try to get the player in the right range for them, then smaller and smaller changes to fine-tune their rating within that range. This is very effective at getting the player very close to their "true" rating in a relatively small number of matches.
By default, Glicko starts ratings at 1500. Various numbers have been thrown out for what the soft cap could be, but 1600 or 2000 seem to be the most frequently-cited numbers.
Now, we don't know exactly what modifications they've made to Glicko, and the exact numbers really don't matter that much for the purposes of this discussion. The point is that it's not too hard to see that it's entirely plausible for someone to reach the MMR soft cap after as few as 3 matches (or the first 3 matches after a break).
And that's where everything breaks down, because as soon as you get close enough to the soft cap, you are suddenly eligible to be matched with players way above it. It's a certain kind of "ELO hell" but at the upper end of the range instead of in the middle.
This is true regardless of how the killer plays. It will happen sooner if the killer employs hyper-efficient strategies, but it will still happen if the killer doesn't -- just later.
I get why the soft cap is there. Without something like it, two problems emerge:
- You have to consistently bring the same energy to every match to achieve the same result, which creates a situation where competitively-minded players are going to have to sweat their ever-loving butts off to get a 2K/2E. (A 2-out being the most perfect possible result in a match where everyone has the same rating.)
- Players at the extreme upper end of MMR have to wait a lot longer for a match because the population at both ends of a bell curve is miniscule.
The only real solutions to problem 2 are to either not solve it and let the players wait, or to give up after some time and feed the top players bunnies they can stomp.
But problem 1 isn't technically a problem. That's what you expect if matchmaking is very good at putting together matches: a very close result every game. So it's actually evidence that matchmaking is good! If you only want either sweaty or chill games, it's perfect. But it becomes problematic when you want to have a combination of sweaty and chill games, which I suspect the majority of the player base does. Matchmaking doesn't have a way to predict how a player will play.
So the soft cap tries to fix this perceived problem by effectively introducing an element of randomness, putting everyone above a certain rating in the same bag and shaking it up to create matches. It works pretty well for players near the median rating of all active players who are above the soft cap. For players near the bottom end of the range, which includes players who are merely approaching the soft cap, possibly for the first time, it can create this wall where you suddenly and apparently inexplicably start facing players who are not just better than you, but not even close to being in the same bracket as you.
But this is by design.
tl;dr: The soft cap creates imbalanced matches. That's literally what it's supposed to do.
Interesting.
Does the Soft Cap come into play as soon as someone hits the queue, or is there a grace period where it tries for closer matchmaking before the Soft Cap allows for a greater range of ratings to be pulled from?
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302651#Comment_3302651
AFAIK, it was 1.5x for matches 2-4, then 2x for 5 onwards
Nice. Does give sequential matches more weight.
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Didn't even know about it. Was it capped after a certain number of matches?
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@YOURFRIEND said:
You're trying to negate one of the killer skill caps, namely tracking through walls with auditory cues? This entire idea is designed to enforce the hold W strat. Break line of sight with barrel powers, leave loop. Break line of sight with hedge, leave loop. It's incredibly uninteresting.
That’s if they keep the barrels in the high-wall loops.
Could move them exclusively to the dead zone “loops”.
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Second chance Perks give the greatest feeling of impact in a chase too, and offer the most chase variety.
Cause loop gameplay sure hasn’t changed at all for 6 years. Just Vaults and Upright Pallets.
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I guess it wouldn’t be too difficult to go back to dead hard for distance and remove the iframes and Endurance.
Then see which version people like more.
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@Halloulle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300082#Comment_3300082
Realm collapse as a setting seems like a good idea to me.
Seven minutes is short - but that, too, is kind of the point. It is enough for a killer to gain momentum and capitalise on it, it is more than enough for survivors who can't manage resources to deplete resources and not get a free comeback via completed gens/safe unhooks. But it is not too long in case of the cases you mention; be that survs who play ultra stealthy (which is a valid strategy but not particularly interactive - though, given the reduced gens a killer should have a slightly easier time finding them) or afk killers. The most amount of "feeling like time is wasted" is five minutes though - I think it's reasonable that people realise they're matched with people who don't really intend to play the game normally about two to three minutes in. Five minutes of wasted time is bearable, imo. - Though I guess a match could also last nine or ten minutes. Not more though. I think finding the sweet spot in terms of time would be something to get to via trial and arror.
The pick/ban system is, imo, pretty important. Because there are things people just don't want to go against / things that are inhently unfun to go against depending on what and how you play. It is a way for players to filter out the things they dislike most while still retaining a good degree of variability.
A lack of "feeling of accomplishment and contribution" could be quite a problem though. I don't care too much about it; I see it more as a playground where everyone is likely to get their turn. Very much in the sense of "it's all about the journey, not the destination."
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300086#Comment_3300086
Comp would come with a much stronger set of rules, I imagine - but I do think there are some things the comp people have figured out. E.g. that some things are just broken and should be limited one way or the other.
It'd also not be meant to replace regular pubs. But be a middle ground where it's not just loadouts that make or break your game experience. When I read through the forums there are a lot of complaints from players from both sides who don't care too much about the match outcome, as long as they feel like "they got their turn". Be that survivors who are sick of the ever same killers with the ever same loadouts and associated strategies or be that killers who are sick of seeing DH and either BNP or really good medkits on the majority of survivors they verse.
For me personally it would also be a "I want to play against killer X Y Z but I don't ever get them in pubs" - while said killers are hardly played or just can't climb through MMR (/players don't want to) because versing loadout A B C is just borderline unfun most of the time without the best of the best add-ons perks.
As such I think it would have a fair place between pubs and customs.
This game mode seems to want the mid-game to play perpetually with resource regeneration. (By the way, Hooks should restore pallets, and Generators should destroy pallets in that regard, so the map doesn’t become lopsided by snowballing the more efficient side). So tweaking the time limit should be possible. In which case the only issue is addressing AFK/Stealth.
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7 minutes seems very short, and the lack of contribution to a conclusion will probably be a bit odd and reduce the feeling of impact on a players actions on a match.
Maybe make it a bit longer, and make it so that the Trial grounds are in a state of Collapse. Survivors are powering generators to stabilize a rift to escape through and the Killer is sacrificing Survivors in order to stabilize their realm, call the game mode Realm Collapse.
This game mode seems less competitive as you can’t shutout the opposing side. I’d scrap the pick/ban system.
How will you handle Survivor players that choose to just hide and walk around the map, given there is a definitive end established by the mode? Or AFK/pacifist Killers?
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Some people like hide and seek in their horror game.
Some people also like a mechanic that isn’t just about patrolling Auras in the Killers favor.
While it should be balanced competitively (for a quality experience), Trial gameplay loops shouldn’t be designed around competing “for the win”. It should try to stick to horror, and part of that is the final survivor still having a chance, so there is tension on the outcome, rather than just doubling down on a 4K.
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I am not sure how this will play out.
On one hand, for SoloQ, players will be informed on if their teammates are goal oriented thanks to these Action Icons. SWF will not really need to check in with one another on what objective they're currently doing.
On the other hand, it seems that callouts such as "Going for Unhook", "I am at % progress on Action", "X is at [This part of the Map]" that are available (and quite impactful) for SWF are still absent from SoloQ.
Maybe they'll make it so that pointing at a Hooked Survivor causes a "Rescuing" Action Icon to appear.
Maybe they'll make it so that Action Icons change in transparency based on percentage completion.
Maybe they'll make it so that Character Portrait Backgrounds are darker for other Survivors farther away from you, with more transparent Character Portrait Backgrounds for Survivors nearer to you.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297835#Comment_3297835
I am accounting for that, that's what the idea of more dynamic gameplay is about, and why this would take so long to do. The mechanics are there
Then I don't know what you mean by dynamic gameplay. Preference for hiding when you're closer to deathook and being more brash when you have hooks to spare? Reworking the EGC to be more of a ride or die scenario in favor of stealth? You haven't really mentioned anything. First time I heard the term dynamic gameplay in this thread.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297639#Comment_3297639
Let's take Totems and Deathslinger as example:
If you traverse the map doing totems, you are missing out on BP from gens, chases and unhooks, and get the feeling it was a waste of time (as well as 'team'mates scolding you for not doing anything) if there wasn't any hex in play. This does lead to people ignoring totems (for the sake of BP) but THEN complaining about Devour and Noed. The game should reward being cautious more.
Now for Deathslinger:
He is, by all means, a killer that seemed conceptualised as one that was meant to be met with caution and stealth. As in, don't cross his path, don't get into his crosshairs. Which for the character makes sense and it would have been a nice change to the match pace. Instead we got complains about his ability and how gamebreaking it is because... it cuts chases short. That's it. He's slow, he can't even down you with his ability (unless he's got iri coin and hits you from 18m away) like huntress, trickster or artist can (yes, tricksters and artist came later, but that's part of the issue). Yet he got changed to adjust him to the standard 'engage the killer in chase' gameplay, which still rewards the most points.
And this seems to be the general way of things right now:
A new killer is introduced with an interesting concept, but because it doesn't feel as if the game is rewarding anything outside of the 'chase/hook' respectively 'chase/gens/gateescape' routine everything starts to feel the same cause a lot of people play every killer the same.
This will get rambly now, but as of now the game does seem to reward playing scummy more than it rewards not being scummy. Be it in terms of BP, pips, or MMR.
If *all* you’re doing is Totems, and not helping with gens or hooks, don’t expect a lot of BP. That being said a maximum of 5K Boldness points from just dulls seems low, especially spread across various survivors. (And honestly should probably be survival, with a boldness boost if it’s a hex)
Deathslingers strong chase makes up for a lack of mobility. Albeit for such a strong chase Power there really wasn’t much of a tell if you pressed aim and fire at the same time.
Keep in mind that while stealthy play is gameplay for a Survivor (Nor do I think it should be removed), it offers no gameplay for a Killer. I think it should be an option, but if we’re talking about influencing behaviors, I think giving more rewards should be curated towards gameplay that engages more players.
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Modifying BP values will not require a rework of the entire game.
Metagame rewards and Perk balance are different things.
What actions, specifically, do you feel are unrewarding?
For that action, do you feel the amount is too low? The Category incorrect or redundant? Are there actions that don't have associated BP rewards that you would like to see tracked with BP?
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@Gandor said:
I don't think buffing give up behavior without it being team-based is healthy for the game. People already complain about DC's ruining the experience. Buffing "kill myself" behavior should belong to same group.
Giving option for whole team to surrender (be it killer or survivors) is something else. This might make sense if MMR screws up bad or if some horrible mistakes are done.
I don’t like quitter attitude either, and would support a “quitters queue” for players that tend to disconnect/die on Hook frequently that reduces over time as they play more matches without quitting.
A team based surrender for Killer doesn’t make sense since they are a team of one. (And why would Survivors pass up a relaxing match?)
For Survivor, okay, but you still have missing skillchecks on Hook and would need to change that.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296015#Comment_3296015
As long as you attempt some offense it's fine. Doctor just putting people in madness and not attacking is different. I just had a 20+ min on the game. They picked that map to hinder me but I was not a "lesser" killer. They gave me a 3 gen and I slowly whittled down their resources. Even that map eventually runs out of good pallets.
I will chase but only if I know I can make it quick because survivors wanna rush my gens!
Why is Doctor using his Area of Effect Blast to stun lock Survivors off of gens in order to timeout the match and sacrifice them to the Entity any different? It’s a winning strategy, right?
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295772#Comment_3295772
Getting hits, using up pallets and building stacks of STBFL is trying to win - but not easy to notice.
Nurse and Blight pretty much always have a 3 gen because they can move so fast and down survivors faster than any other killer (most of the time). Should we all just play those two killers?
Your comment about Pallets and getting hits also being about the win: yes, that’s the point. I’m not saying players shouldn’t play to win, just that there are some strategies that make the game more about evading and chasing (horror related), and others that are more about point defense (not horror related), which doesn’t mesh with the games vibe.
Regarding Nurse and Blight, that’s why whatever solution for a 3-gen would need to be independent of how spread out the gens are (while still being approachable by Killers with lower mobility).
@blue4zion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295772#Comment_3295772
Lol
SWF was added later because of high demand, nothing about Survivor was designed for SWF
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296159#Comment_3296159
And that's why it is so broken.
Add the limits I said before : No repeats of perks, characters, items or offerings. Add the UI element to let teams see what perks people have before the queue. Then lock everything but cosmetics once in queue.
Then SWF has voice coms and solo queue has advantage : can use whatever you want.
I’m not disagreeing that the upper limits of coordination for SWF and problematic items still exist in DBD. (But I disagree with limiting Perk loadouts. Perks should be designed with it in mind that it can be used in a team.) Though that’s not the conversation for this thread.
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Because it isn't communication between players.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295772#Comment_3295772
My reply was hyperbole. It was only really to say SWF is OP and needs to be balanced.
A simple way to do that would to add one rule : No character, perk, item or offering repeats in a SWF. Add a menu element to show you your friends perks before you queue. Lock everything but cosmetics when a SWF queues. That would go a very long way to make SWF fair and limited.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295772#Comment_3295772
Standing in the middle of 3 gens waiting for an opportunity to get a quick down does fill that role.
If the Killers Power is designed around the premise of "Come to me, or it'll be worse", I can understand waiting around for Survivors to come to you.
However the only reason that Survivors come to the Killer in the case of a 3-gen is due to metagame restrictions and literally having no engaging alternative. They are literally unable to try to avoid the Killer, voiding their role as a Survivor, especially if it is a strong enough strat to consistently result in several additional sacrifices.
From a "I wanna win" perspective, yes, it makes sense.
From a design perspective, it's distasteful.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295197#Comment_3295197
-"Item reform? Yeah. Agreed. There are also a fair number of killer addons that are super unhealthy for the game."
You can't put everything in a 5 bullet list.
I assume you mean Nurse/Blight addons that have 30-50% bonuses.
If we're talking about purple tombstone - get out. He's a terrible killer without that addon or infinite T3.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295240#Comment_3295240
Let me turn your argument against you : DBD is unfair to the killer if the other team is a SWF. So why not get rid of it?
Solo queue could be made fair if we get rid of SWF in regular games.
The survivor role is based around independent players working together to achieve something they couldn’t do alone. (Still keeping in mind that if ######### hits the fan it’s everyone for themselves).
Removing SWF is counterproductive to that design.
The Killer role is about trying to subjugate the Survivors to the entity, causing pain and suffering with the eventual reward being some kind of release.
Sitting in the middle of gens not trying to kill survivors is not following that design.
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@Crowman said:
The snowmen are effectively just mobile lockers.
But also survivors don't want to just be straight up killed by the killer so you can't really call survivors "grinches" for not letting themselves be killed by you for an achievement.
The Licker comparison was more apt for their first iteration, where the snowmen ate a hit before popping the survivor out.
Now that you can Injure them through the snowman, it’s more like camouflage.
Its a wholly unique set piece. (And I like that it’s useable by both sides)
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Don’t forget to disable DC penalties as well.
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Take the anti-info Perk Distortion if you want to reduce the impact of Killer information perks.
The only nerf I can agree with is making the duration of Lethal match the duration of Distortion.
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What exactly are you wanting to see from a “meta” perk?
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@TigerSnake said:
To all the people saying it's only a problem when they do it from the get go: You guys are aware this has always been a thing right, and certain killers literally function by doing exactly this (Hag). The problem here is Eruption and Knight, not the strat. A 3 gen can be broken if there's enough survivors and the right tools/play from them. Eruption's just what makes it tricky since the killer can commit more to a chase since they have Eruption to fall back on, which we know how much that decimates solo que survivors. Like my post said, stop complaining over a valid strategy that can't even be curbed in a realistic manner.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294723#Comment_3294723
Part of killer objective is literally to stop gens from getting done, so this is a bad take. The flow of the game is dependent on survivors doing gens and engaging in chases which is why they're always at fault if they hide without doing anything. And I've stated before that chases inherently favor survivors, that's why people would rather protect 3 gens with CoB Eruption. Why do you think they always aggressively guard 3 gens in comp?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294777#Comment_3294777
OC is by far the worst of the trio and should not be considered at all for a nerf. No one runs Pop cause it's garbage, 20% of current is nothing compared to instant 25% progress loss.
Your argument boils down to "3-Gen is only OP against SoloQ and isn't much of a strategy against SWF, and is only really a problem if the Killer doesn't find the playstyle boring to begin with".
If SoloQ gets better comms so it's easier to communicate, then it'll only be a strat useful on imbalanced MMR matchups.
So why not get rid of it.
If the argument is "But we need tools to fight SWF!", you just said it's not a tool that's useful against SWF.
If the argument is "But in high-level play we need to use this to eek out any actual gameplay", that's an issue with the overall initial availability of Generators in the Trial as a whole. (Start of the match having more gens available to be worked on concurrently gets more of them out of the way causing patrol routes to be more effective)
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So the issue is that there isn’t something that would draw the Killer away from the three gen.
And the reason the Killer is performing the 3-gen is because it prevents survivors from escaping.
So what could you add as an alternative escape route that scales with generators completed (as to not be feasible at the start of the Trial), that takes too long to perform as to only be an issue for Killers that stay in one spot, and is noticeable enough for observant killers to pick up on and interrupt.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294388#Comment_3294388
"You may say that your suggestions should work as an incentive for the Killer to strive for so they have more time to get the 4K"
Where do I say : killers deserve 4k? If I play one game and I get juiced by a 40k hour survivor team and then I smash the next team in 4 hooks - do you think that is a fun /balanced experience ? The numbers don't lie and that is a 2k average (unless the person arranging them make them lie).
It's not rewarding to lose 2 gens before your first down or when you get your first hook. That needs to change and until it does the killer mindset will be two gens lost = need two hook states from one person.
Why would the Killer play around with not tunneling if it doesn't help them get a 4K?
Chases are not a reward in of themselves for everyone.
It does suck when 2 Gens pop before you get a down in the early-game. None of your suggestions address that apart from penalizing survivor actions post start-of-trial downtime. Basekit deadlock doesn't even remove gen progress, it just has Survivors twiddling their thumbs constantly.
Why not think about how you would implement some generators needing components to be found first from Chests. Fewer Gens that ca be worked at the start means there is less of an ability for Survivors to start early, especially if they spawn close together rather than being spawned all over the Trial.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292204#Comment_3292204
If you didn't kill anyone with 3 hooks then the meta would change to 4 min bleedout.
You would be surprised how effective it can be. There are games where I have one person almost dead from bleedout and I dont hook them because the slugging is faster. That's the sad reality of this game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293729#Comment_3293729
"What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?"
Almost all of the mori animations are stupid and lost all potency when they were effectively removed from the game. Meanwhile we still have BNPs. Imagine if you could only apply a BNP for the last 90% of a generator's progress. That would be dumb right? That is what happened to the Mori.
People like the spectacle. It also gives a flourish to an otherwise mundane death on a Hook. It feels more like a milestone.
The Mori system has been gutted, for sure. And the Finisher Mori proposed a while back missed the mark because the best way to get it was to min-max the Killers playstyle in as many ways as possible. Rather than being something for "playing fair" with a significant BP boon.
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The way I see it is this:
Any change to tunneling is going to be a punishment for Killer because the only significant milestone a Killer Player has at the moment, is Killing all four Survivors.
Killing one is nothing special, since there are three more to go.
If you make it take longer to kill a Survivor, you increase the time it takes the Killer Player to gain any satisfaction from Trial progression.
You may say that your suggestions should work as an incentive for the Killer to strive for so they have more time to get the 4K, but MMR is designed around making it so that matches are balanced towards a 2-3K
Your change will inevitably just do nothing but make it take more effort to get the same reward.
Introduce a new reward for playing "by the books". One that people will gravitate towards as thinking as the new "win condition", that isn't just a 4K.
Similar in impact to when the Exit Gates are Powered, but for Killer.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293893#Comment_3293893
Your post was literally empty - full of sound and fury with no purpose.
Going for the 4K has no purpose either. It just feels the best. Make a new condition that feels better that isn't relegated behind a 4K.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293729#Comment_3293729
Patrick told us that since DBD is like Hockey - Kills are everything. They can't be bothered to reward good play behavior so winning is binary as survivor. Did you escape? If no then you lost and you deserve to lose MMR.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293131#Comment_3293131
I rather liked DBD when you could go for chases. Jump back to 2016 before Haddonfield had been released. If people were not infinite looping you could have nice games where you chainsaw'd from gen to gen with billy. Saw within 5 feet of people and then start a chase. Depending on map/rng you could do this on infinite cheese maps too.
A lot of people hate Truetalent for some reason but he wanted the game to be about chases and hooks. As my post mentions above Patrick said nope it's kills or go home. Killers got the message and now go for the best way to get kills. The best way to do that is punish gens before friends. But do you know what a hook pool strategy would do? SWF duos or trios would leave randy on the hook while they blast out the last 3-4 gens and then leave. The hook pool thing would only work if it were a perk that survivors choose to take in the match.
"Deadlock is probably the worst perk you can make basekit"
-Deadlock prevents you from losing 3 gens in the first chase. If I lose 3 gens in the first chase then as a trade I want the survivor on the hook to lose two hook stages so that I can just follow them off the hook and kill them immediately. When the survivors get 3/5th of their objective and the killer gets 1/12 of his that is a huge problem. Deadlock prevents that better than any other perk. The game is winnable on most maps if I have 1/4 survivors dead and two generators left if I have a three/four gen.
DBD is like Hokey.
One side is the Killerz. one side is the Survivorz.
Each side passes the puck of absolution between each other for each generator/Hook made, dictating the eventual outcome.
If the Killer Hooks enough Survivors, the Killer wins, and the outcome is that they can kill in their own realm.
If the Survivors power enough generators they can escape in a last ditch effort and subvert death.
If the Killer hooks enough survivors and the Survivors power enough generators, it's a flip of the coin for survivors for who will fall across the path of the Killer, and be Moried in the EGC.
With any analogy you can literally twist it to whatever you want. find what works for the greatest number of people while still retaining enough of an identity to maintain the product as a standalone experience different from others.
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You keep thinking in the mindset that the only way to win a match is to get a 4K.
Why not shift the definition of a Win?
What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?
Dress it up as being the ultimate goal of the match: Reach the condition you need to be able to Mori a Survivor, all else is just excess.
Make it so that Hooking Survivors actively corrupts the area, engorging The Entity on the Survivors Emotions, and after canvasing the Realm with Entity Stuff, the Killer is able to Mori Survivors (and likely initiating End-game collapse immediately, powering the gates regardless of the number of remaining generators).
The main problem here is that the only Win condition that many Killers think of is a 4K. And the game isn't being balanced around Killers getting 4Ks on average. (Nor should it).
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@Liam282 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292705#Comment_3292705
A very good point! You could have the debuff happen once per survivor (4 max) to prevent the tunnelling aspect essentially like old BBQ.
You do raise a fair point with perks not being designed for this though. I think in my mind, (might be completely wrong!) Dbd is about the enjoyment of chases, along with choices to save or do the objective/go for that hook or regress the generator for killer. I know survivors want more to do with a more interesting objective mechanic, I really think keeping the chase foundation as strong as possible first will be a much better step forward.
Regarding the incentivising the hooks/chases, I'm going to think more about that today and post more ideas as I rather think of the flaws of my idea (like ya stated, cheers!) and look at ways we could really make a fun thing to actually win OR lose in a chase but not feel down in yourself as you know you got rewarded by trying.
(I know none of this will ever make it into the game but hey, if it helps a dev browsing one day maybe it'll kickstart ideas for them <3 )
I don't think chases are the end-all be-all (the thrill of avoiding a chase in the first place is exciting, so long as not all Survivors do so, then it gets boring for the Killer), but what you touch upon next, choice, is indeed important. Player agency.
At the moment tunneling reduces player agency on the survivors part, given that once a Survivor is sacrificed, they are done with a match.
And the Killer has some reduced agency given that the most effective method for maintaining pressure on Survivors is to get one of them out as quickly as possible.
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But why not just turn those perks off entirely by tunneling the survivor?
Also there’s something that rubs me the wrong way with diminishing Perk effectiveness for failure with the Perk itself not being designed for it (EG: that new Vitrorio Perk)
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291279#Comment_3291279
that should be sorted now, the url has been redirected (for the most part at least)
Hmm.
The URL that shows up on NA East Google search as the first hit for "DBD Forums" is still
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/categories/en
Which hits a 403 error.
Not sure how widespread that is for other region searches, but the first result for search engines seems to still be the old site in addition to it hitting a 403.
Not sure if the previous host hasn't taken down that URL yet or if they have yet to implement the redirect.
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That’s odd… I see comment count and view count on iOS.
Haven’t checked how it looks on desktop yet, apparently I didn’t realize that the cached URL that I had saved on my browser was no longer valid and thought the website was down for more than a day…
just so happened to stumble upon a Reddit post and comment that noted the new URL was forums.BHVR.com
You might want to see if it’s possible to have the old forum URL redirect to the new forum URL when the old URL is hit.
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@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290512#Comment_3290512
Then as jesterkind said "IF" they make a power designed around lockers, we could look at changing how this perk works. Otherwise it's... underpowered for most.
Right. The premise of the entire thread is that it "may become" an issue.
Probably whenever Killer Instinct stops occurring on Survivors in Lockers.