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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382813#Comment_3382813
Yes
If I had to pay real money to get this last chapter, I wouldn't have. But I have so many damn shards that it means literally nothing to me to spend them. I feel like I somehow have a higher opinion on The Skull Merchant than many others and I still wouldn't pay real money for her, or at least not full price.
And this is kinda where BHVR have shot themselves in the foot with shards. There is no shard sink apart from literally their income streams.
Can't use Shards to buy specific Items/Addons whenever you want, can't use 'em to buy Perks outside of the Shrine which has a low refresh rate and limited sink power for veterans, can't use 'em to buy Charms that are effectively discontinued each time a rift is finished. Can only really use them to buy cosmetics and characters.
And so people have huge stashes of them. And when given the choice to buy something with money or with shards, why not use shards? Even if you really like the thing they released, well, why not use that free currency? (This is under the assumption that you'd never pay with real currency even if the released content was stuff you enjoyed, so long as you had shards to spare).
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@tippy2k2 said:
I "bought" it already with Shards
But it's on BHVR to convince people to buy their stuff. It's not on the consumer to blindly throw money at a company and hope they do good with it.
If BHVR can't convince people of that, it's on BHVR. You can't blame your customers when you release a bad product for not buying your bad product.
So I guess you didn't like the chapter because you bought it with Shards, a fake game currency that does nothing to support BHVR as a business.
If they really wanted to convince people to buy their stuff, they'd remove Iri shards from the game completely and rebalance Auric Cell prices accordingly.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380663#Comment_3380663
Play vs Legion and Plague. Nobody heals vs Legion and Plague. you play super safe with pallets and you rush generarors in early game vs the killer. If they get a hook and start camping it, then you need heal vs legion to do hook-trades. Its same for plague. it is not a very fun gameplay loop but maybe I am wrong and Blueberry is right. You will be having this gameplay vs every killer with new healing changes. Rushing generator will be prominent then ever. anyways, we had this conversation long ago.
We'll see if every Killer has the same amount of pressure as Plague and Legion with the 50% decreased healing speed, but I don't think it will be that severe. Remains to be seen if Hemorrhage overperforms, or if any Coulrophobia/TR increasing builds become viable.
It is interesting that they're bringing both Healing speed reductions and Med-kit charge reductions at the same time. Wonder if that will compound the effects of each change.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380088#Comment_3380088
hey blueberry. remember our conversation about med-kits like 1 months ago? It seems that your vision of weakening healing came true. I remember you saying that this meta will be really fun for survivor and I argued that weakening healing will make survivors heal less and rush gens more making the game a lot less fun for survivor. I guess we are about to see whether the game is more fun or less fun for survivor. I suspect boon circle of healing is dead perk and new meta will be 4 med-kit+build to last. I wonder if I am right about my prediction that less healing makes the game less fun for survivor.
If Survivors heal less the Killer will likely get more downs (applying more pressure from Hook rescues) which should balance it out (but also highlight camping/tunneling more), or Survivors will start using more Pallets earlier, which may bring the discussion to Pallet volume, which in turn might be a non-issue if the more frequently dropped pallets means Killers are able to get more downs later in the game.
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@MegaFreeman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380502#Comment_3380502
Is Head On a situational perk? It doesn't have an activation requirement like Dead Hard. Really the only situational thing about it is that you need a locker and a killer to be near a locker.
But by that logic, you can also call Balanced Landing a situational perk because you can only activate it if the map has an elevated ground
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380483#Comment_3380483
Okay but now if you tunnel, you also prevent other survivors from ever getting that third health state. Essentially, the same issue as Background Player
Yes to both being situational. (Albeit Balanced suffers from inconsistency in map design)
Current Dead Hard can be used nearly anywhere nearly anytime, whose conditions are while Injured, and without Exhaustion. Conditions which are more of a formality, as a Survivor that gets chased usually isn't Exhausted if they don't have another Exhaustion Perk, and then they get Injured if it isn't an instadown Killer.
The initial nerf to Dead Hard was more of a thematic rebranding, since it didn't address the root problem of Dead Hard in which it allows the Survivor to mitigate an otherwise chase-ending hit at the VERY last moment of the chase, where other Exhaustion Perks usually would have already had to address the opportunity cost of their design (Sprint Burst used early (99% is still a problem), Lithe only on Vaults, Balanced on falls, Head on using Lockers and 3s charge, Smash Hit is still trash because the opportunity cost is should be dropping the Pallet not also stunning the Killer).
Which is what this change seems to be attempting to address: It's still the same power level and amount of agency when it is up, but it isn't up as much as other Exhaustion Perks can be now.
Though I do hope that they remove the Injured restriction to the new iteration of Dead Hard, but at the moment that would probably conflict with other Perks that use the same input press were Dead Hard to lose the Injured requirement.
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Billy's basekit probably does need to get retouched at some point. IMO introducing a positive effect (or Power altering effect) while overheated and making it easier to become overheated with certain actions, playing more into learning where and when you should be overheated and where you shouldn't be.
Until that happens, his addons as they are now probably don't need to be touched.
However a niche selections of addons being the only thing making a Killer competitively viable probably isn't good design, and would need to be toned down anyway to get a better sense of the Killers balance.
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If a single Perk was the reason for "Boons" being viable, then it wasn't boons in general having a point, just Circle of Healing.
Never liked the long setup time for them, or that their zone is a sphere instead of a cone (here's hoping they use the tech from The Skull Merchant), or that the Killer is unable to break the Totem and can only snuff out the candle.
Hopefully Boons get their Bless time reduced, use the cone from Skull Merchants Drones, maybe even use the same interaction time to Bless them.
And then make it so that Breaking the Totem is basekit for Killers and Shattered Hope reveals the Auras of Boons within a radius (to replace the break effect which is now basekit).
Then introduce a Boon Perk that allows you to rummage through Chests to gain a Token in order to rebuild (rekindle) a Dull Totem into a Boon again. (leveraging map elements and offerings as "catalysts" for your occult shenanigans)
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Removes any tactical placement or movement as a result of the fixed location for the Boon, as well as overstepping the thematic element of the Killer variant generally having an amplified effect.
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@MegaFreeman said:
Its funny I didn't even think of this. They really encourage tunnelling with this change at the peak of tunneling being an issue lol
They're making it a more situational Exhaustion Perk. Akin to how Head On can't be used at any given point in the Trial, you need to think about when to use it and it isn't always available just because you're not Exhausted.
In all honesty it could probably be buffed to no longer require the Injured state as well, more or less being a "protector" avenue for an Exhaustion effect.
I also fully expect Sprint Burst to get some kind of passover to be more situational as well, first to address the unwieldiness of needing to walk in order not to consume it while not exhausted, and to remove the skill-gap of 99% SB by making a conditional trigger.
Also no doubt that there is likely work being done on how to address the prevalence of tunneling.
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Rework how Perks are unlocked:
Complete (Kill all survivors as Killer or Escape as Survivor) a game of Player vs. AI and you unlock a tier of Perks for the Character you use, up to tier three after playing three games.
It gives a meta reason for everyone to use the Bot match system while also acting as a good introductory system for new players that removes them from diving into the PvP aspect immediately.
You can even make it so that you have to successfully use the Perk in the AI match to unlock it, such that effectively any new player will start looking into the effects of the Perks instead of just bum rushing the same method over and over.
Could even make it so that these AI matches have help text in them if a player hasn’t unlocked a single Perk for that character yet. Turn this system into effectively a tutorial wherein you’re unlocking more game mechanics as you go.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3343032#Comment_3343032
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3343033#Comment_3343033
Where did BHVR say the perk would allow people to see dropped pallets anywhere on the map? I thought the exact words are "This perk is losing its cooldown, meaning you can use it whenever you see a dropped, unbroken pallet.", which doesn't say anything about getting additional aura reading.
Apparently it got buffed at some point to show all dropped but not broken pallets.
Don’t recall when that happened.
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If playing as a slug is so enjoyable, why deprive Survivors of such thrilling gameplay if they wish to continue it? It would otherwise remove the possibility of said slug hunt, and that feeling of having truly crawled your way where the Killer hasn’t found you. Then it becomes a game of if the spot you chose is innocuous enough to be overlooked, and the tension as you hear the TR fade in and out around you.
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An anniversary event is basically a seasonal event.
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Seems they’ve moved Gen Kick Regression perks to a philosophy of Kick ones with more progress rather than just kick every Gen you see.
I’m fine with that.
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@dinomazing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340997#Comment_3340997
Your survivors really shouldn't be leading the chase. They can't hurt you. Their only ability is to run.
And you can either direct where they go as killer or take a health state from them if they don't follow your lead.
Noted by @Carth , that’s elaborating on what I mean by typically Survivors lead the chase.
If you’re not a mobile Killer, typically in chase the Survivors run, and you approach them over time, though they can choose where to run.
Yes, for some stealthy insta-down Killers like Ghostface or a 99% Myers I can see it being useful for approaching a generator from the pallet side to prevent Survivors from using the pallet as a means of distancing themselves from your insta-down. However knowledge of tiles can usually replace that, as well as you knowing if you broke a Pallet there before or not.
For long range teleport Killers it’s still kind of hit or miss as the 32m range is a bit short to understand the pallet density of other locations that you haven’t been at yet at the start of the Trial to corral Survivors into RNG dead zones and of course availability of those teleports.
It can probably help some setup Killers like Trapper or Hag to understand where to place their traps quickly, but is a niche use and likely overshadowed by other Perks, especially as the player becomes more knowledgeable about tile types.
In all seriousness if you wanted to make the perk thematic to its description for how the game currently plays “You are mentally alert and aware of key points on the battlefield”
I’d do something like this:
“Damaging the Health State of a Survivor shows you the Aura of the Generator with the Most amount of Repair progress for 4/5/6s, the repair progress can be determined by the intensity of its Aura.”
Edit: Or to be similar to its current incarnation “You see the repair progress of generators within 32m by the intensity of their Auras”
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@BlueHorkew said:
While i like the idea of making more exhaustion perks more on demand. Its kinda of the reason of why i and many survivors like DH, because you have full control of it. Honestly i don't like many of those perks ideas, most of them feel like niche or meme build like dance with me and deception, just too niche and slapping the exhaustion effect on top of it is like the nail in the coffin for most of them.
The only ones i like is the DH idea (but just as other perk, not a rework to DH) and balanced landing because i really want that stagger reduction effect on something without needing to use an exhaustion perk, but its a scary perk since in the past it made infinites so the perk would need some restrictions. I don't like the sprint burst change, sounds really clunky to use.
I do like the on-demand nature of DH, but it's restricted and most effective in probably the (best utility-wise)/(worst balance-wise) place for it to be.
Lithe (currently) is technically on-demand with proper route planning, which is what I kinda wanted to try with Sprint Burst, but given that Lithe can be passed off as "the tiles nearby weren't great" vs. the 2s startup for my suggestion "the Perks waiting period...", yeah, would make it feel clunky.
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Yeah.
Since Survivors typically lead the chase, it's important to know what tile resources you have available in front of you.
Since Killers follow in chase, it's much less important.
Could call it "Pocket Sand" and Afflict Survivors with Blindness for 30s at the start of a Chase. (lol)
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@YOURFRIEND said:
On demand sprint burst is incredibly powerful for reasons that have been explained many many times before. Infinite balanced landing makes many loops infinite. On demand free aura hiding is busted.
Honestly I'd prefer just to have old dead hard than this plethora of busted stuff. At least then you only have to plan for one broken perk instead of like five.
Sprint Burst would require at minimum 2s of standing still. If the concern is that the activation criteria would allow the Perk to be active while repairing and effectively circumvent the 2s of "preparing", you can specify that the Survivor must also not be performing any Actions.
Edit: If the concern is the already frequent periods of stationary idleness in tall loops waiting to see which direction the Killer comes from and how not making SB being a commitment would allow it to be too frequently used in the most opportune of places, you could make it such that the player needs to hold down the Active Ability Button while stationary, releasing early or moving would cancel SB but still apply exhaustion.
If Balanced Landing needs to stay the same as it is now, so be it. Was trying to figure out what to do with it.
It's on-demand free Aura hiding under an Exhaustion cooldown. If used at a distance it becomes risk/reward depending on whether or not the Killer runs across you or is tracking Survivor activity via some other method (EG: Generator tracking Perks), and if you've accurately figure out what Aura reading Perks they have.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340450#Comment_3340450
You can gladly do with my post as you see fit.
Well, Exhaustion perks are a class of strong survivor perks that give them an edge, nothing wrong with that. Not every killer needs to be able to keep up with a survivor sprinting off, but if I startle a survivor at the gen at the upper level of coal tower, we both jump down and they speed off with balanced landing, I can then and there decide if its worth pursuing them, I don't have to wait till the end of the chase.
There is exactly nothing wrong with surviviors having strong perks that give them an edge in certain situations, thats why you design a build, but DH is so universally strong that its seen ubiquitous and disproportionately often. The short time after the 6.1 update was pretty fun: no one was using DH anymore, if you cornered someone you could just SWING without sniffing their butt and you saw all kinds of exhaustion perks. Now its again 3-4 DH per game, with the outlier being the game with just 2 DHs and this shows that there is something fundamentally wrong with the perk. If an option is SO much better then everything else in their class, this should be the biggest red flag that something needs to be done about it.
I only ever used DH for the couple of tome challenges, and I felt somewhat dirty about it. Besides that, I am a proud non-DH-survivor, who dies when cornered, but who also doesn't crutches on a single perk.
People alway claim that "when DH gets nuked, killer mains will just complain about SB, because that is actually stronger", but I call this a load of BS. Don't get me wrong, SB is strong and can be pretty anoying, but I have seen 3 SB lobbies shortly after 6.1 and that was no near as aggrevating then getting constantly robbed of your price 45s into a chase, 7 frames before you win. People who claim that the compaints about a SB meta (that never came into fruition, btw, no matter how much peeps struggled with the new DH at first) would reach ANYTHING close to what we see about DH of the past and the new DH are just coping so hard.
Appreciate it.
I don't disagree that Survivors should have Perks that can give them an edge, but the slight issue is that Exhaustion is an effect that passively "restores" the Perk after it has been used. If used correctly, these act as pseudo health states. As noted in your example with Coal Tower, you were unable to get a hit in, and if you left the chase, the Survivor is able to go back to a Generator, start repairing, while that Exhaustion Perk is recharging concurrently. (Saying to just use Fearmonger is a band-aid and also reduces Survivor agency on actually using their Perks in the first place).
A Killer like Blight or Nurse might think of it as a relative non-issue, since they can catch up quickly and consistently make sure that Exhaustion Perk is suppressed for the remainder of the chase, but it's a different issue for slower Killers.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339768#Comment_3339768
too much anti-tunnel starts to remove agency from the Killer and can be used by crafty Survivors to troll.
I mean, we're talking about getting these playstyles out of the game, that kind of requires a reduction in killer agency.
As for how survivors use it to troll, we've had DS for a very long time, and for a very long time, it wasn't efficient as a troll tactic. I've pruned it back a little further from what we have now by removing collision so you can't bodyblock with it, so I don't really know what else you can pull off with this anti-tunnel idea that could make it a problem.
Why not just remove Healthy Grabs and make starting the Unhook animation uninterruptible?
Any form of instadown would get the unhooker downed anyway, and it would free up the killer to tunnel the camped person back onto the hook. Healthy-grabs aren't the problem. Survivors can cycle that out, but there's nothing they can do to prevent the killer just using their unhook to speed up the sacrifice process.
This slowdown specifically teaches the killer that the tactic is unrewarding, and it risks costing them the kill with a good EGC save.
But you’d still want to add a carrot because the Killer gameplay is honestly quite monotonous given it doesn’t really have milestones or events that impact how they interact with the Trial. It’s just a constant loop of chase, down, hook.
Killer gameplay is definitely comparatively more stale than survivor gameplay, but that's not something that should be fixed with net-buffs to killers. I'm all for diversifying gameplay in a way that is mutually fair, but killer gameplay being stale is a separate issue from camping and tunnelling.
I mean, we're talking about getting these playstyles out of the game, that kind of requires a reduction in killer agency.
I'm of the opinion that people generally don't mind tunneling, but they do mind being removed from the match early. However, I understand addressing that likely will take too much of an overhaul.
As for how survivors use it to troll, we've had DS for a very long time, and for a very long time, it wasn't efficient as a troll tactic. I've pruned it back a little further from what we have now by removing collision so you can't bodyblock with it, so I don't really know what else you can pull off with this anti-tunnel idea that could make it a problem.
Same way OTR can be used to bait the Killer nowadays: It's hard to tell if a Survivor has it active, and if you're being a nice Killer and you're away from Hook and then the Survivor comes across your path and you chase them, only to realize that "hey, the intentionally came over here to distract me".
Any form of instadown would get the unhooker downed anyway, and it would free up the killer to tunnel the camped person back onto the hook. Healthy-grabs aren't the problem. Survivors can cycle that out, but there's nothing they can do to prevent the killer just using their unhook to speed up the sacrifice process.
This slowdown specifically teaches the killer that the tactic is unrewarding, and it risks costing them the kill with a good EGC save.
Proximity-based anti-camp measures will be circumvented with proximity camping, or proxy camping (which is more effective than facecamping anyway), and these distances would either be too short or too punishing.
Proxy camping allows for the use of STBFL to effectively make M1 Killers insta-down Killers given the unhook interrupt of becoming Injured stopping the action coupled with the attack speed reduction, as do Healthy grabs.
Your anti-tunnel mechanic would be the thing that prevents the Killer from tunneling the Survivor after insta-downing the unhooker.
Killer gameplay is definitely comparatively more stale than survivor gameplay, but that's not something that should be fixed with net-buffs to killers. I'm all for diversifying gameplay in a way that is mutually fair, but killer gameplay being stale is a separate issue from camping and tunnelling.
Certainly, doesn't mean that it can't be tied into whatever anti-camp/tunneling mechanics are introduced. And probably would be best for player retention if it's not just a massive nerf bat to Hooks, but also positive change in the way that Killers approach how they want to Hook Survivors gameplay diversity.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339936#Comment_3339936
Or to break this down even further: every other exhaustion perk has its uses during a chase, either at the very start or shortly after the chase went on, while DH literally activates within the 9 frames prior to ending this chase and finally reap its benefits, and thats extremely frustrating.
Its the only exhaustion perk with a guranteed activation condition (safe for a couple of insta down effects) that is not tied to any tile or random quirk of the map, and all this combined makes it the strongest and most desirable exhaustion perk.
It would even see play if it could only be used once per game, it is that strong, and being able to use it over and over is just unparalleled in the game. Yes, its fairer then it previous itteration (wow, how broken was that?) and it can be baited out, but it is so meta that every single survivor gets the benefit of "baiting it out" until the killer knows for sure that a given survivor doesnt have it.
That exactly, a much more detailed description than the way I put it. Would you mind if I posted that as an addendum at the top of the main post given the proclivity of users to skip thread contents?
However even if that is addressed, then you come across the problem with how most Exhaustion Perks like Sprint Burst/Lithe/Balanced Landing are disproportionally effective against Killers without mobility than those with mobility, as those Exhaustion Perks revolve around simply adding raw distance in a chase instead of attempting to augment how a player engages with a Loop.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363933/the-fundamental-issue-with-dead-hard
The problem is that it has no downside. Every other exhaustion perk has some kind of downside.
- Adrenaline - Only activates in end-game and only activates once, mostly used for the heal more than the sprint burst.
- Balanced Landing - Very limited usage and heavily map dependent. Many maps only have 1 or 2 spots you can consistently use this at.
- Head On - Requires the survivor to jump into the locker and sit there for 3 seconds, can't really be used effectively in a chase without combining it with other perks.
- Lithe - Requires you to fast vault, meaning you can't loop perfectly efficiently when using it. In theory you could fast vault and not need to "waste" it, but if you slow vaulted you would get hit, making it one of the least efficient perks, but outside of dead hard is more on demand than the others.
- Overcome - Only works when going from a healthy state to an injured state. If you are hit while injured it doesn't work.
- Smash Hit - Requires you to land a pallet stun, which is sometimes easier said than done. Additionally, a pallet stun, depending on the pallet, killer and setup, can already be a chase ender anyway, so the value you get on this is much lower.
- Sprint Burst - You have to walk to not accidentally use it, or 99 it. This requires you to play around the sprint burst very very specifically and it isn't available for you on complete demand.
And then we have dead hard, where the "downside" is that you need to be injured, but becoming injured is a natural thing that will happen in the course of a chase. And if you don't get injured and you don't use it, you didn't need it. If yo do get injured, then it is always available to you at that point with no downside.
Yeah, it's only beneficial at the very last moment of any chase.
Everything else occurs mostly mid-chase, or before the first hit, such that even for M1 Killers it's not used before serious chase commitment.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339658#Comment_3339658
6.1.0 cut on-hit speed boost by 10%, increased gen times by 10 seconds, and decreased action cooldowns for killer on both pallet breaking and successful hits by 10%.
Seriously, I have not seen a single killer player actually take ALL these compounding buffs into account, they always forget half of them.
But this also plays into a fundamental disagreement I have over how to handle camping and tunnelling: Incentivising 12-hooking won't do the trick, for multiple reasons. For one, as seen above, players don't have a proper grasp on the game's balance or their own position in it. Feels like roughly 30% of the playerbase is in the 'top 5% MMR' if we're going by how many of those posts crop up.
The moment they are losing, it is the game's fault, it's unfair and unreasonable, and they resort to camping/tunnelling. You can try and shift the comparative quality of 12-hooking, but you have to take into account that the bar for what the players consider 'fair' can easily drop through the floor, putting 12-hooking squarely back in the 'I'd rather tunnel' category.
The other thing is that camping/tunnelling are also used as intentionally malicious acts. There are killers out there that are not playing specifically to win, but to make the game miserable. Any buffs to non-camping/tunnelling tactics won't fix this, as long as these tactics still feel powerful and effective.
So I strongly disagree with using the carrot. These tactics need the stick. And I think it's achievable. DS was super healthy for the game back when it was a 5 second stun, with the one problem being its activation under non-tunnelling conditions, but those were pruned off all the way through to 6.1. And Reassurance certainly has the potential to work, just not with its usage restricted specifically against campers to be only once per trial.
For anti-tunnelling, I'd want there to be a Desperation mechanism. Activates upon unhook, lasts 80 seconds, or until a conspic action, and the survivor has no collision with the killer while under the effect of Desperation. Additionally, if the survivor is picked up by the killer while under the effect of Desperation, they get to make a skillcheck to stun them for 3 seconds, which ends Desperation.
DS can be changed to 'desperate strike now stuns for 5 seconds'.
OTR can then be changed to complete info black-out while under the effect of Desperation.
And for anti-camp, make the hook timer slow down while the killer is near the hook, based on the number of survivors working on gens. One surv on gen = 5% slowdown, 2 survs = 20% slowdown, 3 survs = 45% slowdown. That way it only hinders the killer if they're actually camping and letting other survivors do gens.
For anti-tunnel:
too much anti-tunnel starts to remove agency from the Killer and can be used by crafty Survivors to troll.
Honestly I just think there should be a way to absorb Sacrifice states from one survivor to another.
Say interacting with The Basement Shrine of Sacrifice will allow you to remove a sacrifice state from the Survivor with the most sacrifice states, but increases your count by one.
If the survivor is on hook when this happens, it acts like reassurance.
For anti-camp:
Why not just remove Healthy Grabs and make starting the Unhook animation uninterruptible?
This would make it a lot easier to trade hooks even when the Killer is facecamping, also allowing players to cycle their Hook states themselves instead of artificially elongating the Hook state of a single Survivor.
But you’d still want to add a carrot because the Killer gameplay is honestly quite monotonous given it doesn’t really have milestones or events that impact how they interact with the Trial. It’s just a constant loop of chase, down, hook.
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I’d honestly prefer to see spreading Hooks reward basekit Moris.
Hook every Survivor once and you can Mori Deathhook Survivors once the Exit gates are Powered.
Hook every Survivor twice and you can Mori Deathhook Survivors by your own hand at any time.
This would make the Killer more threatening at the close of the Trial than just making the Killer snowball through the Trial, while also presenting milestones that have distinct game changing effects.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339243#Comment_3339243
-"If you gain Rage and still go for an Injured Survivor that's on you"
Not to go around in circles but again this would make the effect pointless. The only state that should ignore enraged should be borrowed time from a hook.
Another way to achieve a similar result could be done with damage having a lasting effect. Imagine for example if every damaging swing made your next heal take 25% longer.
This would also punish dead hard users more than those were not using it as they would have 150% longer heals on the 6th hit. Someone who had been downed twice without dead hard would only be at 100% longer heals.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339223#Comment_3339223
There should not be an ocean of difference between the bottom killers and the best killers. You completely missed the point. The difference between the best and worst should be 10-15% at most.
Your end goal is to make Basic Attacks attrition Survivors to the point that they remain Injured and cause chases to be shorter for M1 Killers. (As does the rage mechanic, but more tied to empowering the Killer vs. Survivor attrition).
This mechanic is already in place with Pallets acting as chase extenders that the Killers can permanently remove from the Trial.
All you’ll do with your changes (and the rage mechanic) is make Hook proxy gameplay a lot more dangerous for Survivors and much more beneficial for Killers to perform.
And actually the more I think about it, no Killer is an M1 Killer.
Every Killer has a Power. If they don’t have anti-loop, their Power should apply some kind of attrition that adds enough time to eat through those two health states.
In effect the issue isn’t Survivors being able to heal preventing attrition, but rather that a Killers Power doesn’t provide enough attrition to allow a Killer to commit to chases, and should be approached on a case-by-case basis.
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@crogers271 said:
Much like DbD moved away from stealth to looping gameplay I really feel like they need to ditch the idea of survivors are not a team (1v1v1v1v1). While a nice concept, it doesn't really work as a game.
As @StarLost says above, if as a survivor I'm getting facecamped why shouldn't I suicide and go play another game? The way to counter camping on the survivor side is to just do gens/reassurance the survivor on the hook. This all though depends on the survivor sitting on the hook and just accepting a loss. Which they currently have no rational reason to do other than the idea that they are helping their "team".
I feel that the game would be improved by an end screen that says 'survivors win', 'killer win', or 'draw' - we don't even have to discuss new perks/changes. Knowing there is a team to play for will give a reason for the survivor to stay on the hook instead of suicide and also give the killer reason to play more aggressively. You can then also do BP, etc. based rewards on overall survivor performance, but I think the message screen would be a big help.
From a roleplay aspect you wouldn’t suicide on hook as you’re still trying to survive and there’s still some chance of potentially being rescued.
But there is no meta-game reason to stay on Hook unless you’re in a SWF or empathetic as quite frankly the being Hooked gameplay is boring and the reward is minimal.
I don’t think a “Survivors Win” or a “Killers Win” end of match screen will help at all, since for SoloQ the match would need to fully end for a result to be made, for SWF they’ll have commentary on the outcome, and in both cases they’d still have the least amount of BP by a significant amount.
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@Raptorrotas said:
A) dont give bp for messing up or I will demand killers be given bp for missed attacks "for giving a chance" and bp for escaped survivors.
B) does anything in the game treat survivors as a team? No score for making sure others get out. Currently zeamply, despite swf, is still optional.
Technically you get more chase BP the longer the chase.
Also Altruism is a Bloodpoint category.
@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339491#Comment_3339491
People not accepting that premise.
Also the part where the game is increasingly treated as a 1v4 by the developers.
Working together will increase your individual chance at survival, but not all survivors will make it out. That’s the premise. A 1v4 by necessity until the escape route is open.
The question is how to make it more obvious that a partial victory has been achieved. How to showcase your sacrifice aiding in others escaping, and how to showcase the sacrifices you make as a Killer (problem being this objective only has an obvious threshold at a 4K - as it’s always the same gameplay up to that point).
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Add an Objective BP Score Event that’s based on time on Hook called “Perseverance”.
Also let the Killer leave the match by interacting with the Shrine of Sacrifice during the EGC.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339123#Comment_3339123
And what purpose would that serve? You chased someone and got nothing. That is entirely the point of what the Enrage feature does in VHS. When you hit someone they go down and start bleeding out and permanently losing health.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339135#Comment_3339135
-"I think your slightly exaggerating. Killer micro play matters a lot more then I think you realize for killer. killer powers matter quite a bit."
I think you're dead wrong. Take any Killer from the "C" list played by the best player in the world for that killer. Have them play with whatever addons they choose across every map in the game against different highly skilled SWF teams. And then Bring in someone like Hens to play Nurse with no perks and no addons (not telling the survivors the nurse has nothing to help). Hens on naked nurse will absolutely destroy any killer from the C block.
Almost every killer in the C block is going to struggle on the majority of survivor sided maps even with "the best possible loadout".
This is one of the big problems with DBD. The difference between best in slot Nurse/Blight and Best in slot anything else is massive.
There is no source of Endurance that triggers while Healthy. If you gain Rage and still go for an Injured Survivor that's on you (but this also brings to question how Rage should trigger in DBD). If Survivors stop healing because they know Rage is coming up, that's effectively a Healing deterrent that doesn't hard limit survivor agency. If Rage isn't lost on hitting Endurance that means body-blocking with Endurance following with a body-block by the uninjured Survivor won't be a thing (or multiple strings of Endurance body-blocks).
VHS needs the chip damage on every hit because otherwise Teens could regroup after the on-hit grace period and simply rotate defense of the Injured Teen until the Monster literally has to Injure all Teens to be able to get the first down given that Teens are given combative capabilities as part of their Objective in that game.
In DBD it's defensive and the Killer is designed around being unstoppable, so Survivors can't hold ground at all, it's a question of if they can hold out long enough to power the escape route.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339071#Comment_3339071
I realize what you're getting at with an enrage meter like VHS has in their game. The problem is that DBD has incincibility states. An enrage attack would need to ignore that.
That would mean you can't dead hard an enrage attack and that would make survivor mains angry. Honestly for the game to have any real justice the killer would also likely need to be given enrage attack progess every time a pallet is dropped.
And then we're back to a state where Nurse and Blight are getting buffs and the killers that need it are not catching up to those killers. Try again.
How about it doesn't ignore it, but only deactivates upon a Survivor down? You hit them with the Enraged Attack, the Survivor isn't put into the dying state, so you're still "enraged".
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Survivors already have a depletable resource that ends the game for them: Hook States.
If you want Basic Attacks to feel like they always add something, think about including something akin to a Rage Meter (that builds off of Basic Attacks) instead of making Health States limited.
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Athlete:
Far as I'm aware breathing techniques don't emphasize quietness. And Iron Will already has that.
Footstep quietness could probably be better used in a more specialized perk than one that also focuses on Haste.
A passive Haste based on Terror radius and chase start seems like it could be very unwieldy.
Maybe make the criteria solely based on the Survivor, and add some kind of time limit to it?
EG: "On Your Mark - Standing Still for 2s applies a 3/4/5s Haste that decays once you begin moving"
Commando:
Sounds cool. Can the Killer pick up the Survivor while they are in the process of standing up? (I think it should, akin to how Lockers Work)
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338167#Comment_3338167
Because the killer knows they'll be up in 45s, and will come back if they aren't clueless.
Of course they'll come back to pick up the Survivor if they aren't clueless or being a bad sport.
The issue is how the dynamic of "They'll be back up in 45s" interacts with gameplay, you now have a time limit within which that chase effort will be invalidated without any input from other Survivors (for the pickup).
Do you have to give up chase on the Survivor that you chased away from the Pallet? Did you down them but they're also under a Pallet with another Survivor nearby?
Any kind of base self-pickup will enhance survivor efficiency if played around with well.
However, there not being one gives a feeling of a lack of agency (not fear) and can be abused.
I don't expect (nor want) any kind of base self-pickup to be used often without any investment (Perks/Items), but rather to give a sense of player agency that it's there, and to cut short some cases of abuse of game mechanics that would otherwise be possible.
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@Canas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338348#Comment_3338348
The changes buffed survivors far too much, there's no sane reason why survivors should even be able to see the precise progress of a gen that's being worked on by a teammate. The fact that they even were able to see ANYONE working on gens was already too much of a buff but this change made it even worse. Never before has genrushing been this easy to coordinate, it's completely absurd.
Take a break. The more you play the less your MMR will shift, as the limit for how much it can shift per match is lowered the more frequently you play. The more time you're away from the game, the more this limit will revert and the more your MMR can shift from losses. In the event that the developers have implemented core rebalances to mechanics at the detriment to a given role, you might as well want to let your MMR become more malleable before you dive back into the game again, assuming they for whatever reason haven't loosened MMR changes upon the release of the mechanic update.
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IMO the only thing they need to do with Pallet information is create a directional Global Audio cue. Which could honestly spruce up the atmosphere a little bit as well, knowing your defenses are being whittled down bit by bit.
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@killeriseasy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337883#Comment_3337883
Yeah but taking windows is to help give me an idea of where I don't want to go also if there isn't as pallet there. It doesn't show for everyone, just me so that seems fair otherwise I have a perk that I can't rely on fully. Pretty pointless and would probably rather have a different perk.
The point of those illusory pallets is to fool people into thinking there is a tile resource there that isn't, to make them unreliable.
So yes, the point is that the Perk that just shows you Pallets also becomes unreliable when faced with intentional deception.
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336100#Comment_3336100
Survivors would pick them up to stop the killer from snowballing
Unless they're being mean and slugging to avoid hatch, they're doing it to try to get more downs.
Like this is actually simultaneously a buff to slugging and a nerf, because it takes longer to 95% yourself for someone else to get you, but if the killer takes too long you can get yourself up.
Why pick them up if they'll be up in 45s anyway, especially if they're far away? It'll take ~10s to get there, and maybe ~10s to pick them up, and then the Killer knows there are two people where the Slug was. Only go and pick them up once another person gets downed.
Or chasing after someone with a Flashlight/the downed Survivor is under a Pallet and another Survivor is nearby.
How does it take longer to 95% yourself? It's still 30s. Just that while holding Recover while it says "Find Help" you fill up a secondary bar.
And yeah, I don't mind slugging tactically, but prolonged slugging is a problem., especially when it feels like the downed Survivor has no goal to reach for. (So introduce the secondary self-pickup).
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Dead Hard should be a Perk where you need to guess that the Killer will swing, or use it during an animation Lock to tank a Lunge.
While I am unsure of it at the moment, apparently you can use the Killers Quick Attack swing animation as a cue to successfully Dead Hard.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336104#Comment_3336104
Let me know when your average survivor player is ~4000 hours and has played in multiple DBD tournaments.
There is a reason Blight and Nurse are the killers that get used in tournaments.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336111#Comment_3336111
And that's where you are wrong because as I already mentioned Blight and Nurse largely ignore pallet mechanics.
You’re right, my initial comparison was incorrect given that anti-loop does indeed bypass those mechanics entirely using their Power, and given the Power restriction on this “decimation” mechanic insta-down Killers and effects(?) wouldn’t be able to bypass that.
Wouldn’t this be a boon for tunneling? Smacking the Unhooker so that they stay Injured or have to Heal up, using one of their Health states, while you chase down the Unhooked Survivor?
This system seems to seek to address the power that Survivors have with Healing for Killers without anti-loop, how being able to heal health states feeds into the number of pallets on the map those Killer have to interact with making losing a Survivor much more impactful than against a Killer without anti-loop.
Why not address this issue through tweaking the Pallet system instead of a system that also affects Survivor altruism with teammates when it come to interaction with the Killer?
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A limited resource that starts full at the start of the game and that through chase a Killer will eat away at until the point of no return.
In effect that already exists in the form of Pallets.
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The original 45s incarnation would have been too quick.
Survivors wouldn’t bother going to pickup survivors on the ground anymore as 45s isn’t that much time when you factor distance traveled or the Killer being in proximity. Better to just focus on the Gen and either the Survivor picks themselves up, or the Killer has to spend more time going back preoccupying themselves with that Survivor while everyone works on gens.
It would turn slugging a survivor into a neutral or a negative for the Killer with no detriment for Survivors and no longer require any input from any other survivor to resolve the scenario back into a previous state.
Thematically this doesn’t fit. Being put into the dying state should be a significant detriment to a Survivor, which can be alleviated by a teammate.
If a self-pick is introduced, it needs to add a significant detriment to a Survivor for a significant duration, such that outside of edge-cases it’s usually a better play to seek help from another survivor.
Something like Suffering from Deep Wounds + Exhaustion (60s) after performing a Self-pickup. And also making recovery still 30s, and at the 95% mark make any additional recovery progress add to an overlay recovery bar that can reach 100% after an additional 30s of Recovery.
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You know how a lot of Killers complain bout how quickly the first few gens are completed?
That's what Tunneling is, except for that person they're also kicked out of the match.
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Can Killers disable Perks they don't want to face?
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Unitology has greater thematic ties to converging, bringing together.
Also Isaac hates Unitology with a passion, the perk and it’s description should be more about separation if it involves Unitology.
As for the Effect, it’s another do gens faster Perk, but this time Isaac The Engineer hurts himself while fixing something?
Honestly Isaac could be the candidate for a Perk that allows you to create a Pallet (Likely needing to destroy a Totem for some kind of supplies).
Skeptical Resistance:
Isaac is skeptical of Unitology, but gets fooled by The Marker.
What is special about him is he gets information from The Marker.
As for what the Perk does, it’s far too specialized a counter for a few Killers, given that illusionary effects are not a Perk category (yet), screwing over Doctor and Freddy.
Maybe allow him to see a rift only useable by the Perk user in the Trial? Interacting with it does something?
Adaptive Engineering:
perhaps allow the player to consume Items to charge the Item they’re holding? With charges gained based on Item rarity and number of attached addons?
(While holding an Item while near another Pickuo prompt, you have the prompt to strip components?)
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@FROST_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332002#Comment_3332002
That would be such bullshit tho, like come on, this game has been out for almost 7 years and we still dont have the option to increase the FPS cap + change quality of ALL the textures...
I mean, if you're able to change the quality of textures, it also means you could probably lower the quality of textures to take advantage of how the system would render those textures, say the Bush textures on Dead Dawg for example, make them super low to the point that they don't obscure Survivors/scratch marks.
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@hiken said:
this change was suggested before (many times) and they think it would be overpower at least on PC, in the end it would give u unlimited items, offerings and stuff to your main character, i dont know if its a good idea.
Sounds like a ripe opportunity to balance items according to their usefulness, instead of taking into consideration scarcity as well.
It's a good idea, for gameplay and financially (for BHV).
It increases the capability of people to swap to new survivors as well, which can be profitable as well, given players deal less with sunk cost.
It also means that if you're a number chaser, you can spend BP anywhere to get that item count higher and higher and higher.
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Explain
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Gonna be a long while till I think they add in an audio accessibility setting for Killer in this regard, as it'll need to take into account all audio sources when showing that information.
Probably would be something like this:
Imagine a 3d Circle placed flat on the horizontal camera axis.
Parts of the circle can raise based on the amplitude of nearby sounds (raising less based on the distance).
The direction of sound sources compared to the camera will specify which parts of this audio circle will be raised by the incoming sound amplitude.
Chase music is sourced at the player, so it will cause amplitude changes on the entire 3D circle.
(Really crappy visualization of it:)
Then visually it comes down to understanding the amplitude change patterns on this 3D "audio compass" to see sounds for a specific action, and being able to discern them from any ambient or chase on the compass.
This would be a huge undertaking, and would take quite a while to add amplitude profiles to audio events and figure out a proper way to add them together, test, and make sure it all visually isn't too obtrusive.
The bonus is that this would effectively add audio accessibility settings to everything in the game for any role, not just Killer. (Think footsteps, chainsaws, Pallets Breaks, Window Vaults, etc.) And the complexity of understanding the visual representation would mean a player would likely need to be invested in this system to benefit from it (EG: actually need to use it to learn it).
(I also don't know if this is something that already exists, but uses another name than just "audio compass")
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Yeah. It also limits how impactful a Killers mobility results in additional information.
Not sure why it’s centered on the Killer.
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@Firellius said:
It really can't take much more nerfing before it goes the way of practically all other survivor perks and drops to a 0% pickrate.
Faster healing in the radius but can only self-heal at the Totem instead of through walls in a 24m radius.
A shrine archetype, needing a mobility commitment.