AssortedSorting
AssortedSorting
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@utm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407037#Comment_3407037
I want to reward killers for spreading out pressure while discouraging tunneling, accomplishing both through the same mechanic, in a balanced way. I think something along the lines of what I've proposed does just that.
Are you saying that a hallmark feature of dbd is tunnelling? I wouldn't disagree - that's why I'm making this post. But further, do you think killers will stop playing if they are discouraged from tunnelling, because they are used to it / enjoy it? I was under the impression that most killer players don't like tunnelling, but do it because it's an easier way to win against good survivors. I think most of the player base would like killers spreading out pressure being rewarded. If killers enjoy tunneling in this game, that's straight up mean - it ruins player's experiences, and won't make new players stick around. To me, it does not feel good to do.
What sort of new gameplay element would you prefer over what I proposed? I'm sure the community is open to ideas + I'd love to hear it.
Someone on here earlier said that BHVR is focused on only introducing changes through perks. They've shown they're willing to make changes to base timing in the game (i.e. healing, gens, etc.). Still, perk ideas, new mechanics, etc. that address these issues would all be appreciated. I shared what I think would work, and so far, I don't think anyone has made a compelling argument against it, or for something that would work better, including the status quo.
FWIW, everyone I've met through dbd + people I introduced to the game have all agreed that a mechanic like this would be great. Let BHVR work out the details, but imo addressing tunneling (and the imbalances that arise due to it) should be their first priority.
With regards to your comment about tunneling: Yes, if the Killer wants to Kill, they should have the agency to do so. If you want to reduce tunneling, stop trying to spray a water bottle in the Killers face for the same core actions just in a different circumstance, make the circumstance hard to get into in the first place. This is my take on it:
@AssortedSorting said:
Looking for feedback on how this might play out from a gameplay perspective:
Hooked Survivors have a Specter form on the Basement Hook, if they are Hooked on a non-Basement Hook. They can be unhooked either from where they are actually Hooked, or they can be unhooked from the Basement Hook via their specter.
- This should eliminate most camping, while also retaining the lethality of getting hooked near/in Basement.
Basement has "Tunnels" that lead to the corners of the Map, which can be traversed by both Survivor and Killer. Entering a Tunnel via the Basement will Trigger Killer Instinct on Survivors.
- This prevents basement camping to a degree that it can't be done at the stairway chokepoint.
- This gives Killers a base-kit mobility tool so that they don't always have to come from the same direction that Survivors see them go to add a sense of uncertainty
- Survivors can use them to try and get a mindgame if they pop into the Tunnels from outside of The Basement.
You can give them a reward, which is what you are suggesting. However in my opinion a stat-stick reward is esoteric. It's a number that you can't see/understand easily in moment to moment gameplay. It's not going to be effective at shaping player behavior (outside community outcry on the patch notes). Why not make it so that performing Sequential Hooks on Survivors builds "Devotion", which after a certain limit will allow the Killer to Kill a Survivor by their own hand at the end of the Trial, during the EGC. Which also gives a hefty bonus amount of Bloodpoints.
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@utm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406983#Comment_3406983
The hook timer issues were more prominent after gen speeds were slowed last summer, yet hook times stayed the same. That was a face camping buff. Facecamping can get an easy 2k, so I think the timing needs to be looked at. But that's beside the point.
I mentioned this before, but survivors are not going to want to get tunnelled. It's not fun. It would still be somewhat beneficial to killer gameplay as having 1 less survivor working on gens is huge - the benefit just would be less prominent as it is now. It's why tunnelling is in nearly every match right now. Two survivors at 100% speed is similar to one at 200% speed. Having that slowdown in gen progression as early as possible (aka tunnelling) makes it easier to win.
Conversely to what you mentioned - I think it would be fresh to not have to do all those things you listed (taking hits, body blocking, etc.) for just the survivor getting tunnelled, as that's how most matches play out in the current state of the game. It would encourage more survivor-killer interaction across the whole team.
I don't see how this would cause differential effects for M1 killers. Killers are too variable / imbalanced and that's a separate issue. But if I'm missing something here lmk how it could be addressed.
I do agree that other things to make the game more fresh would be nice. I've seen some cool ideas on here regarding different objectives / forms of gameplay.
That said, what I've proposed is simple / not risky. It could definitely use adjusting, but I haven't seen things on here (other than maybe a DS buff) that would address tunnelling. And the game needs it to be addressed. I've already stopped playing, which is why I'm here as a sort of last ditch effort to salvage a game I love.
There is a difference between penalizing current Killer gameplay to stop tunneling, and introducing new interactions that make it harder to tunnel.
Adding a stat-stick bandage to make Killers stop tunneling without changing the core gameplay just introduces a negative player experience.
And a simple change like a stat-stick change is actually riskier, as if it fails, it adds a greater negative stigma to gameplay feature that a player is used to, that will always be in a players subconscious even if changed/reverted, rather than a new gameplay element that can be excised if found wanting.
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These balance suggestions are esoteric and as such mostly have an impact in high-level gameplay. Nor do they introduce that much interesting gameplay apart from stat-sticks that once again, are esoteric in nature and only really noticed/appreciated in high-level play.
Increasing Hook Timers for Survivors near Hooks based on proximity gives the Killer a zone of "Feel-bad if stay near" for a Killer that is literally supposed to be trying to Kill the Survivors.
Instead of punishing Killers for being near Hook, give Survivors more tools to get a Survivor off of the Hook at Base.
Tying Gen speed to Hook states gives Survivors incentive to actually WANT TO BE TUNNELED, meaning Survivors will have an incentive to body-block more, dump chase/health into one survivor, etc. It also means the Killer can't punish Survivors for performing unsafe unhooks, or literally running up to them after being unhooked. There is also the issue that tying gen regression to GETTING A HOOK IN THE FIRST PLACE also exacerbates Killers that might struggle against the default gameplay mechanics (EG: M1 Killers)
Instead of tying generator regression to being a "fair player" to deincentivize camping, give Killers a secondary Objective for spreading Hooks that increases their lethality. Something akin to collecting the "essence" of Survivors powering up some kind of entity buff that can be consumed.
All in all just manipulating Timers will not address the issue that the base-game itself has gotten stale as hell, nor will it address the feelings of "Tunneling is still the best way to get to a "checkpoint" for Killer, like Survivors with Generators". So instead seek to introduce new mechanics that also address these issues.
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They should probably see how she plays if they remove the Active Mode entirely, and making the Scouting Mode apply Exposed.
It presents immediate counter-play to the Drones if SM decides to leave the Drone alone, and the Scouting Beam can be leveraged in chase if you're familiar with how they start. (By both sides)
Might need to tweak the Hacking time up, and perhaps apply a general cooldown for a Hacked drone instead of having it tied to the Claw Trap.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406753#Comment_3406753
1.) Survivors don’t have to play as a team, one of the taglines for this game is play selfishly or as a team. So you are of course completely wrong.
2.) The healing nerfs are meant to balance with the Gen regression perk nerfs. It would be too oppressive to nerf survivor healing abilities, leave Gen regression where it is, and nerf Gen progression perks. The kill rate is like 63% mind you which means most killers are securing around a 2.5-3K. 1-2 (with 2 more likely) survivors are escaping on average.
Selfish play comes in near the end, deciding on if you want to try and go for an EGC save or don't risk it (or should you decide to hide in a corner and let all the other players die to the Killer and then you try for Hatch, but most people hate that).
Generally speaking though this game should try to emulate that yes, you are all individuals and Survival is at an individual level, but you're up against something nearly as strong as all of you, you can't face it alone, it will get you otherwise. In the start/middle it should try to be a mix of both self-independence and teamwork, and near the end, that's when selfishness should come out to play: Do I go for the Unhook when the exit is here? Do I hide and wait for the other guy to die so I can go for Hatch?
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400863#Comment_3400863
Why would you be able to? You have two different objectives. You either kill the survivors, or they do generators to end the game, why would you be doing generators?
That's the point I'm making. Why does the Switch interaction between both roles lead to the same outcome, at minimum?
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@BougieBlackChick said:
The killer could just go open the gate themselves to start EGC and apply that pressure
From a competitive standpoint if the Killer Opens the Exit Gate, the EGC doesn't apply the same amount of pressure.
It removes the time-commitment of Survivors from opening the Exit Gate.
Trying to Hook a Survivor near an Exit Gate to camp near an open exit doesn't make sense because the Unhooked Survivor gets Endurance even during the EGC.
If you're not an insta-down Killer you can't really act as a gatekeeper, as Survivors can simply choose to exit via the other entrance anyway.
All in all, the EGC is only ever really pressure when Survivors open it too early themselves, while the Killer is still in chase/patrolling a Hook. The Killer opening the Exit Gate is more or less concession of the match.
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@oxygen said:
EGC's only purpose is to put a hard time limit on the match that both roles can start with some fancy visuals attached.
Does it accomplish that? Yes, both survivors and the killer can open the gate.
Why can’t both Killer and Survivor work on Generators then?
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400692#Comment_3400692
It isn't necessarily that strong for the killer right now, but it can provide an advantage to the killer by putting survivors on a time limit and it can also occasionally force survivors away from safe loops. If a survivor is at a loop where they can't run away without getting hit (especially relevant if they're injured), but the killer otherwise can't catch them at the loop without breaking a dropped pallet, normally the killer is forced to break the pallet. But once EGC starts, the killer can just wait and keep them there and the survivor has to act, even if they go down for it.
Removing the option to 99 gates would make it stronger because it'd force survivors to open gates instead of leaving them 99'd which would start the timer sooner.
Wow that sounds like good tension in my horror game.
And if they just 99%’ed a Gen, which they can communicate with the HUD in some capacity for SoloQ, the Killer would be able to interact with it.
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From a thematic standpoint it doesn't make sense.
The entire match Survivors want to complete their objectives and finish them, except for the literal last objective (The Switch), if they feel they're in a comfortable position, to go unhook or Cleanse Totems, search Chests, etc.
The Killer is also in their weakest position with regards to how they interact with Survivor Objectives at this point too. They can only... Auto-complete the Survivors Objective for them?
It'd be nice if instead of it opening the Gate, the Killer Interacting with a Powered Switch would "Damage" the Switch with a Basic Attack, allowing the Switch to regress. Regressing Switches would not have any indication they are regressing without the use of a Perk. "Damaging" a Switch causes the Bulbs to burst, no longer allowing Switch progress to be seen visually. "Damaging" a Switch causes a power fluctuation on the other Switch, causing the lights to flicker for a short duration. "Damaging" both Switches cause a breaker to trip, opening both Exit Gates.
This would at least allow Killers to demolish Survivor goals in line with the rest of the Trial (EG: Pallets, Generators), However given that you can only choose one to regress (without conceding), it presents a choice: Have Survivors already put a decent amount of time into this switch? Should I chase the Survivor off the Switch, or Damage it first? Do I think the Survivor is in this area, and they've 25%'ed it already, meaning causing this Switch to regress will likely prevent them from being able to escape, or give the Survivor the signal that I'm literally standing at the other Switch? Or perhaps the lack of a visual progress indicator mean that on a map with more LoS between the Exit Gates, the Survivor will be able to stagger powering the Gate without you noticing as you perform patrols across the shortest visual path to the Switch? Perhaps you may take advantage of this to try to double-back on that switch quickly?
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@Mystic_Mizu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398796#Comment_3398796
I agree with you on that one.
The devs are pretty much saying "Even though the killer is already naturally faster than you, they're obligated to get free hits out of you just because".
Like if you have the skill to catch me, good you deserve to catch me. If not, then you don't get to down me just because you're getting naturally faster and faster for not being able to smart me in a chase.
Bloodlust also drops when chase drops. Try bringing misdirection perks to help you break line of sight from the Killer? Quick and Quiet, Deception, Dance with Me?
If all the Survivor is doing is simply looping a loop without doing anything fancy, yes, I do think that a safety net is fine for the Killer to get a hit in. Being found by the Killer should feel more like a guarantee that you will be hit, if you do nothing out of the ordinary.
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I didn't like the RNG reliance of skillchecks popping up for original Ruin, I still don't like it with a duration.
And Regarding Good skillcheck regression, especially being the deactivation condition from a single Great: It's useless against competent players, and amazing against bad players.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398083#Comment_3398083
I still don't know why they nerfed Pop Goes The Weasel.
Because people used it.
I mean technically the instant regression usually would allow a Killer, especially lategame with a 3-gen, to feed Hooks into massive Gen regression.
Still think they could have probably made it cause Entity Block in some manner to make it seem more like the "Pop" part of pop goes the weasel.
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Why can't we make Pallets spawn over the duration of the Trial and reduce the initial amount of them?
But if given the choice I'd choose weaker Window spawns, specifically for the loops with the longest loopable pathways that also interconnect with other Window vault pathways, EG: Haddonfield house.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397480#Comment_3397480
And if you buff other killer perks then I'm sure they'll also lead to gameplay that makes people very very upset because people get very very upset over perks that are strong enough to have an impact on the game. This time it was gen regression so Overcharge, Call of Brine, and Pain Resonance are gutted. Next time it'll be something else, I'm already seeing people move on to new perks to demand nerfs for.
Yeah, and then you need to look at the gameplay that is provided.
Playing Generator defense is not thematically appropriate for a game about a Killer chasing Survivors to Kill them.
I sure remember in Halloween how Michael Myers was all uppity about Laurie Strode sabotaging his knife cabinet and chasing her away from it.
I still don't know why they nerfed Pop Goes The Weasel.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397464#Comment_3397464
Again, we're back to killer time to snuff. Whatever. The changes are going live in a week so the discussion is moot.
The perk will still have all those problems, and will only be useful to SWF, so healing pressure with circle against them will be just as poor as before if not worse.
Solo q will just be back to dedicating half their build to self care again, and don't need any additional slow down to be inefficient.
You can go spend 20 minutes snuffing totems against SWF, and turn your monitor off to beat any solo q squad.
I still think the proper change to CoH was to make Survivors need to interact with the Boon to heal, and introduce glyphs above the Boons indicating what Boon is being used.
Sidesteps the Altruism coordination efficiency granted from SWF coordination that will now be present for CoH, ensures sequential healing and same path needed to trek to the Boon as Killer, and also gives more informational clarity to SoloQ. Although this kind of Boon would be a different archetype.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397462#Comment_3397462
Because if other killer perks get buffed, a bunch of outraged players will start shrieking and demand they be nerfed back down, like what's happening right now. Overcharged didn't have gen regression, then last year that feature was added and people started using it, and now it's being nerfed because people are using it.
People were using it to hold 3-gen hostage situations.
The regression was also way overtuned given it didn't have any signifiers it was active, a signifier which would be disproportionately imapctful between SWF and SoloQ as there isn't and objective status on the HUD for each Gen. (So a SWF would be able to call out if a Gen they were chased from was regressing abnormally)
And for some reason it was able to stack with call of Brine instead of the highest regression % being the maximum.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396988#Comment_3396988
You're saying, healing teammates 2 times grant you a self healing once in 24sec, is bad for you?
I mean, is it still the 65% healing speed penalty applied? Or is it a 16s self-heal?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396551#Comment_3396551
Oh trust me, I'm well aware that snuffing a boon seems to take 10 minutes of killer time if the forums are to be believed.
But you also can't snuff self care either, and that doesn't take 14 seconds of prep time and can be done anywhere, even if all totems are gone. I'm not sure why snuffing time is suddenly a critical problem if circle only allowed the booner to self care at the same 35% rate as Claudette's perk.
Because it doesn't only allow the booner to self heal, nor does it require the Survivor to move next to the boon to Heal and can be used through walls and floors, also allowing areas to be quick for Survivors to reach the benefit, but make the area hard for the Killer to reach.
Don't forget that every second spent preoccupying the Killer is at worst four seconds that Survivors are able to leverage and at best 1 second.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
I've been careful to avoid mentioning Deadlock in my recent posts because I was scared someone at BHVR would read it and get this idea.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
Hard disagree, if for no other reason than the fact that it's now the only really good killer perk.
Survivors still have half a dozen decent perks that affect gen speeds. Give killers at least another four or five, and we'll talk.
We'll talk when you dig into why the other Perks are not as good as your main argument other than "they suck gimme better"
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I think this would work better for primary objective perks. So, for example, you could add a requirement to gen speed perks to do altruism first like healing or unhooking. That inherently slows down the early game because survivors will be trying to earn these perks and gives a bit less incentive to do 'gens and nothing but gens'.
I like the idea of overzealous, but the investment of 14 seconds to bless or break the totem doesn't give a good return to gen speed. But that's the kind of trade off I think it's good to look for: time spent elsewhere up front in exchange for gen speed later.
But I don't think extra steps should apply to things like healing or recovery. The pressure for healing should be enough to make people want to heal up or pick up a teammate.
If you make healing too difficult, the best play is to just bang out gens as fast as possible. (It's why I disliked the PTB extra healing time). Self care is already inefficient even compared to altruistic healing already, and requires two perk slots to even be viable (with botany).
This, though, is exactly why I think the self care aspect should stay on circle of healing, even if the self heal speed is nerfed or only applies to the boon owner. The time to find and bless a totem is exactly the kind of up-front investment you're talking about, and may not even see a return at all if it gets snuffed early.
You also need to remember that you’re playing a PvP game, and the time taken to snuff it by the Killer should also be considered as it’s time they are not chasing/patrolling. (So long as the Survivor chose a decent spot)
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@camping_site said:
POV : tell me you are a baby killer main without actually telling that.
sometimes this forum seems like satire
I’m not sure what your comment achieves apart from being derisive.
Can you elaborate?
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
Deadlock should be basekit. 45 seconds to eliminate gen rush from the game.
Not sure how that prevents 3/4 different Survivors from repairing a Generator at the start. It just offsets when they pop and gives the Killer more anxiety over guarding the generator that was highlighted, which ironically will make them more likely to ignore other generators contesting that single generator allowing other generators to be worked on.
Deadlock doesn't impact the time put into repairing a generator, it staggers generator completion.
It just stalls a generators progress. It also generally just deprives a survivor continuation on their goal without having any clear and present danger around. It also always triggers, as it's passive. And apparently it's competitively viable to be recommended.
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That's a Risk/Reward archetype.
Will not always receive value when you want it, notably at the start, but over time can be built to be stronger through directed effort.
Things that give a consistent value, a passive affect archetype, should generally be weaker in comparison (for a game). You have full use at the start, and had you been unlucky regarding the Risk/Reward perk, you'd still have a consistent value.
There is room for both types of Perks.
See Hexes for Killers, though understand that Hex placement RNG kinda means the Risk/Reward is handled by Map generation RNG rather than emergent player gameplay. (Which still should be addressed in some manner by allowing Killers to place their Hexes on Dull Totems).
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394630#Comment_3394630
That math is bad. It doesn't extend EVERY gen by 30 seconds. It prevents 30 seconds of working on one. You can still use that time for healing, totems, or even just doing a different gen. It doesn't literally make a gen 2 minutes long unless you decided to do absolutely nothing but STAND THERE for half a minute.
Right, sleepy-brain got me thinking fuzzy on that post and likely meshing it with Corrupt.
So I agree that the Perk itself isn't horrible, from a time-efficiency standpoint (though I don't like it for other reasons as well).
But what isn't good design is that it is the meta pick, and not just a step down for the personal preference of simplicity.
A passive stall perk like that being meta is either overtuned in comparison to other Perks, or there is an issue with the core gameplay loop negatively impacting other perks that would otherwise be statistically better when used decently.
You say other Perks suffer from not being able to get a Survivor at the start, but why does 50 seconds of 4 Survivors not being in chase impact these Perks so much?
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Why not what?
Edit:
Right. As I said it does its job too well. It literally adds at minimum 2 and a half minutes of guaranteed Gen block in addition to information on the highest value Gen location.
That is not an “anti-multi-pop” Perk.
That is a flat stat-stick Gen stall perk.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
Sure, let me tunnel the obsession and get value.
Cool, being the Obsession should suck from a non-Myers Perk design perspective. They’re the target.
@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394594#Comment_3394594
Ruin does work if you do nothing. If a Survivor gets off a gen they are working on it, regresses and I ain't gotta do a thing. What you mean to say is I get the most value of Ruin if I push people off gens. But the perk itself will kick on if a Survivor gets off to heal, or cleanse a totem, or use an Interactable object like a clock or vaccine case. In none of those scenarios do I have to do anything, press a button, I don't even have to be on that side of the map.
Deadlock requires nothing against it working passively because that is its job. Its job is to prevent multi-gen pops. And it does. No nerf required.
You have given me examples of sub-optimal survivors or interactions as a result of your actions.
Deadlock does it’s job too well, if it’s supposed to be specialized in preventing multi-pops, it should block one (or multiple) gens if they are above a certain threshold, but not specify simply the “generator with the most progress” which will occur every single time a generator pops. (Though unsure what happens if all other gens are at 0%)
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Commit to a down at the start, if they predrop safely instead of going for mindgames it’s going to be a rough match.
Proxy the hook from a distance and patrol nearby gens.
unfortunately because the endurance effect off hook is still a thing after the gates are powered you can’t really secure a Kill anymore, and spreading hooks is less effective than getting an Altruism loop among 3 going, your best bet is to just tunnel the guy if convenient and leverage any altruism plays.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394568#Comment_3394568
Doesn't change what I said at all.
When you load into game you are not in chase. Ergo, you have no pressure until you do.
AND
Those two perks will work without you doing anything.
Both of my points remain unchallenged. Just accept that some perks work without you needing to do anything. And that's okay.
What about chases was I challenging?
I was asking why you had no pressure. And you have now given me an answer.
However I don’t see how the start of the trial is that bad if it’s just a change from 100% survivor Gen potential efficiency to 75% once you get into chase.
Ruin does not do any work if you do nothing. You need to actively chase Survivors away from gens so they can regress.
Corrupt only gives a scant few seconds as Survivors move to other gens if you do nothing, and patrolling blocked gens is usually less useful than unblocked ones.
You ignore that I say activation and interaction are distinct things, or do not understand it.
You sidestep that I say passive stall perks are okay (which Ruin certainly is not, it is an Active stall), so long as they are mediocre.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394553#Comment_3394553
Because you are not in a chase. Why are you asking questions with blatantly obvious answers?
Also:
Corrupt Intervention is a slowdown with no input from the Killer.
Hex: Ruin is a slowdown with no input from the Killer.
I reject this silly idea that slowdown of any kind mandates an interaction.
Also it really doesn’t take that long to get into a chase at the start of the Trial, especially leveraging good patrol routes and listening for Gen repair noises.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394553#Comment_3394553
Oh, so we should just get rid of things like Botany Knowledge, etc since those are just unearned passive buffs?
And Deadlock would only be meta because there are no other options. All the "active" slowdown got gutted to the point of being unusable. What else am I supposed to use?
Deadlock isn't going to be meta because it's actually good (it's mediocre at best). Deadlock is going to be meta because mediocre slowdown is the only slowdown we have left
I still think botany knowledge would be cool if unused Dull Totem spots would sprout a plant that can be used for a healing amp buff. But generally speaking, is Botany Knowledge a meta survivor Perk? (I typically play Killer, so unsure)
@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394553#Comment_3394553
Because you are not in a chase. Why are you asking questions with blatantly obvious answers?
Also:
Corrupt Intervention is a slowdown with no input from the Killer.
Hex: Ruin is a slowdown with no input from the Killer.
I reject this silly idea that slowdown of any kind mandates an interaction.
?
Corrupt only blocks some of the generators and you change your patrol path accordingly, and Survivors can also go to unblocked gens.
Ruin is a game of hunt the totem and the killer can choose to protect it and no longer has to worry about kicking gens.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394528#Comment_3394528
Yes. I do.
I don't know where this idea is coming from that all perks require you to jump through hoops. Many, many perks have no "interaction" requirement to start working. I don't have to activate many perks that I use. In fact, out of my standard loadout the ONLY perk I run that requires me to jump through some sort of design hoop is Nowhere To Hide's genkick.
Activation conditions and Perk interactions are different things.
Passive stall has no activation condition and no interaction.
For Deadlock it always happens each generator and you don’t change your gameplay when it does trigger.
If four Perks like that exist and are competitively the optimal choice then making new perks is pointless or introduces powercreep as there is no room for side-grades.
Passive stall should always be a mediocre choice. Not optimal. It will likely be nerfed.
Now, why don’t you have pressure at the start of the Trial?
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394522#Comment_3394522
nothing would stop people from “socializing”. You can still socialize all you want if the added a debuff. The game just wouldn’t automatically be in the swf’s favor as much anymore. It’s not just communication. It’s the fact that most stealth killers and perks are negated nearly completely by said communication. Why shouldn’t there be a drawback for having such an advantage?
I said penalize.
SWF’s on average tend to have varying skill levels between players so a generalized penalization will also disproportionately impact those players.
Stealth Killers still are thumbed without comms because of Dying Auras and Hook Notifications and given that there are a limited number of directions a killer can subsequently approach.
Appropriate averages MMR matchups can in effect act as a ”gameplay penalty” while also being under the hood as is likely already implemented or being implemented.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394513#Comment_3394513
It's not that complicated. The most likely time to lose more than one gen, where more than one is being worked on, is the very beginning of the game because you have no pressure whatsoever.
If you add a silly "interaction requirement" to Deadlock, like hooking an obsession, now you have to find a Survivor and hope it is the obsession, chase it all the way through the first chase and hope you don't get some terrible RNG tile setup, hook him, and pray you did all this in less than 90 seconds so your perk can have value.
Deadlock is absolutely worthless if its only getting value blocking Gen #5 after #4 pops. It working right from the start of the match is the entire point.
Why don’t you have pressure?
Do you think that passive stall being the competitively best choice is healthy Perk design?
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Character traits in PZ are akin to Perk selections, not player coordination.
In addition, playing as a group in PZ multiplayer incurs no penalties. In fact it allows for role specialization and faster resource collection.
Back 4 Bloods new player friendly campaign multiplayer difficulty stated their rewards were reduced, so most new players played the advanced campaign with “normal” 100% payouts and subsequently tanked runs by being under geared.
Players don’t like less, and adding negatives to SWF play will literally just drive players away from the game.
I also don’t see the need to penalize people for socializing with others in a broad sense.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
Aaaand how exactly do you get value from a perk this way when the point of the perk is not to lose several gens during the first chase before you can build pressure?
Care to elaborate on your problem?
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@TOFFU said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
Mb survs will start to have some interactions ?
Mb survs will stop to have braindead gameplay?
?
Deadlock literally stops Survivors from performing an interaction.
Standing still is a bit more braindead than holding M1, not that it's saying much about how "thrilling" that is...
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394125#Comment_3394125
While that is true about DL, it’s the only counter to just pre dropping all pallets, which is also the same kind of game play that takes no skill and actually doesn’t require a perk to do so. That’s why you see the highest mmr players running things like DL and Corrupt instead of gen regression, it’s because the squads there just pre drop everything and prevent regression perk value or just creating pressure in general.
Pre dropping doesn’t even give the killer a chance to play the game as the majority of pallets once thrown are forced breaks as they’re too safe otherwise.
All pallets spawning at the start of the Trial is still an issue, yes. One I hope BHVR addresses/workshops soon by reducing the number of Pallets that spawn in Trials, and then by allowing Survivors to setup a limited number of additional Pallets in the now vacant Pallet spawns.
Survivors would then need to decide at the start of the Trial if they want to focus on bashing out generators, or scouting/setting up Pallets, (Loops would need an indicator showing if a Pallet is up or not, say perhaps with yellow ribbon being used to secure a Pallet not being present.... I think I'm going to brainstorm something quickly.)
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NGL Deadlock is peak braindead gameplay.
Literally no interaction or input from the Killer whatsoever for maximum effectiveness, and I've been of the same opinion since its release.
Needs to have some kind of interaction, EG: When the Obsession is Hooked, the Generator with the most progress is blocked by the Entity for x/y/z.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393069#Comment_3393069
I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds. Then you only deal with one health state.
Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked, or it should have to be EARNED in a way that DISCOURAGES tunneling, and actively encourages healthy gameplay from both sides.
My general proposal is to keep dead hard as is, but it works like mettle of man, so no deep wound shenanigans. Then make it so dead hard is not active, then if you are injured for 30 seconds, it activates and lets you use it. Once you heal, or are downed, it deactivates. This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.
Great if Pallet generation wasn’t frontloaded at the start of the Trial.
Your suggestion still just makes Dead Hard a pain for Killers that have to chew through Pallets and only really allows counterplay for anti-loop Killers.
I could see it being introduced in the future, so long as Pallets get a rework to be a secondary Objective survivors setup partially during the course of the match, such that the resultant predrop pallets while Injured to by time for Dead Hard meta does also incur a time sink should survivors choose to setup pallets against non-anti loop Killers.
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Instadowns have a variety of counterplay, as they require the Killer to be on the Survivors butt, which already has a lot of counterplay: Pallets, Vaults, Stealth, Lockers, early distance, etc.
Dead Hard is all about the extra endurance ensuring the Survivor is able to make it to a droppable pallet for just one more loop by protecting them from a Lunge, and if hit by the Lunge they can move to another Loop. The Killer can try to "bait it out" so the Survivor uses DH, but they still can drop the Pallet safely, and if the Survivor calls the Killers bluff, they can try to do so again. There isn't much counterplay to this, as Pallets by design are not supposed to have much counterplay, and most anti-loop is telegraphed even moreso than a Basic Attack.
I like the agency of the Perk, but as a result of that agency, the skill floor and the skill cap of its use is significant, with the upper end of the skill cap needing tweaking.
You could try to figure out more restrictive use cases (EG: you stop moving while the Endurance effect is occurring and gain no on-hit boost even if successful), or restrict the overall usage of the Perk (EG: Dead Hard is unlocked after safely unhooking a Survivor).
However even then there is the thematic problem of Dead Hard: The counterplay is to "bait it out", for a Killer to stop interacting with their environment. Like the prior versions of Eruption and Pain Res. And for a Perk that is all about predicting the actions of another to perform your own action for a benefit, I can't think of a way for the counterplay to be anything different at the moment.
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I think it’s going to make tunneling easier to do.
With the slower altruistic healing time it means that unhooked survivor is not going to be healed as quickly and subsequently increases the effectiveness of proxy-camping’s ability to feed into tunneling if returning to hook after the unhook notification meaning that the unhooked survivor is likely going to still be Injured.
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Mobility isn't everything, but it's the easiest to grasp.
Pig doesn't have a lot of mobility, but her RBTs give her a lot of time for more/longer chases, her Crouch can let her get in an early hit, and if a Survivor running around with an RBT hasn't healed and stumbles across a patrolling crouched pig, it can give her an easy down.
However, she does struggle with her Power requiring a down in the first place, which isn't helped by the fact that all Survivor chase resources spawn at the start. Though this is more of an issue with overall Pallet design that hasn't been addressed.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384363#Comment_3384363
does it help playing a variety of killers? i feel that stops some of the staleness
It does, for a bit, learning how they work, and experimenting with Perks on them (assuming I have the Perks with which to experiment with, otherwise I get to play the ever exciting game of: "Watch the Bloodweb!" ... sarcasm... )
(Plz BHVR, make Perks unlockable via a Perk related Challenge on the Killer, have gameplay lead directly to gameplay progression instead of gameplay lead to UI drudgery leading to gameplay progression).
Then I realize that now it's back to the same loop of "Hook Survivor till dead, repeat until match end or they escape".
It's not that it's stale... More that it's monotonous? There isn't much buildup for any payoff when playing as Killer. It's why I play Executioner. Leaving Survivors Tormented and not using the cages means that once they're down the third time, I can perform a flourish, something different than just Hooking them. And it's something I need to work towards as well, since Survivors can only be Tormented by my own input (not only that, but placing a Trail of Torment is more distinct from a Chase), so it's not always a guaranteed event.
Edit:
It'd be really nice if there was some kind of state change in the Trial when you get all 4 Survivors Hooked once, so it acts as a kind of Secondary Objective: You can focus on Killing all the Survivors, but something else will occur once you Hook all 4 at least once that may be a better, or simply a different option, than just tunneling this Injured guy off Hook)
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383847#Comment_3383847
For honor and rainbow 6 siege suffer the same issues with not enough content. So their solution was to make it so that you have to buy the pass to get access to the new characters 2 weeks early. Then they also have a vault where time limited and event cosmetics go. Which you have to basically gamble for during the event. And that requires paying for premium packs or content that is outside of the standard content.
streamers end up dumping a ton of their own earnings into the game to be a first showcase channel in this regard. That is sort of what they do currently with PTB stuff.
personally? It’s simple. Make better cosmetics paid and the base pallet swap colors redeemable. Licensed content isn't always a huge financial gain because a lot of the royalties have to be paid to the license owner. Depends on the contract.
like if you want trapper to look like trapper but with brown pants instead of blue or green then that’s redeemable. Easy to make. Takes 2 minutes to make. It’s at least something.
on the other hand if you want beach bunny huntress then that’s like $1 - $3 or something.
put the redeemable stuff in the free pass track and the premium stuff in the premium pass.
instead of giving out lame event charms that no one cares about just give player xp and blood points.
Nothing about this concept is hard. Charms are fine for memories and commemorative things, but as for a reward they feel… boring. The only exciting ones are the ones for completing each level of a tome. But like… if all i get for the chinese new years event was a charm i’d be annoyed. So on those days just make it so a player can earn a free event cosmetic or purchase past event cosmetics and make a premium alternative that can only be bought during the event.
league of legends started doing premium alternative versions of their cosmetics so that’s an option
but regardless even if they removed free to earn cosmetics from the game and made everything pay to use - I’d still never buy anything. Just because I simply don’t care for cosmetics.
I agree.
As noted about your point with the charms, people like their time and effort being rewarded with something that they can present/collect.
That should apply to both sides, players and workers. So I do agree that high-quality cosmetics fit the bill for being Auric Cell only if BHVR is looking for compensation, especially with regards to sustainability.
With regards to redeemable recolor stuff, this is certainly an avenue that BHVR could explore, but I don't know if they have the tech to do in the quantity akin to how Warframe does it, and it'd need a UI rework anyway having the base mesh and then being able to use a submenu to select/unlock a given coloring.
Wonder if there would be any benefit to re-releasing old charms for Shards, but then again they really need to rework their UI to be able to handle large quantities of elements.
And to comment on your last statement, is there anything that you would want to spend shards on?
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The playtime I have accrued has certainly played a part in my decision to stop playing DBD from oversaturation, but I also think part of it has to do with the overarching Killer gameplay loop of just Chase->Hook being very... uninteresting in effect. There is no spectacle when doing your objective, unless you take joy in the screams of others.
There is a challenge, for sure. But no spectacle like the blaring of the Exit Gates. (Keep in mind I do despise the lack of interactivity of the auto-mori that was presented a while back, with it also being conditional on having a complete victory over 4 other players)
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Frankly the best part about the Leaks were that people could discuss ideas. But you couldn't really talk about them in any official forums. So I'm glad they're talking about big changes and dissecting user feedback.
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Arguably the PR suggestion increases the effectiveness of proxy-camping, if you can simply just slap the Unhooker on the Hook, any Hook (which technically is still a problem all Scourge Hooks have sans the RNG).
Perhaps instead tweak the Scourge Hook system to the following:
The First time a Survivor is Hooked, you create a Scourge Hook. (If this is on an existing Scourge Hook, the Survivor will not create a Scourge Hook if Hooked again on a non-Scourge Hook)
With this criteria the location of the Scourge Hook is no longer RNG, but is controllable by both the Killer, AND the Survivor (they can choose where they take the chase to)
Edit: But this may just make 3-Gens even more effective if planned out from the start. Maybe allow Scourge Hooks to be cleansed with a time-investment akin to a Hex?
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The interesting thing about the current DH change is that you will not encounter DH at the start of the Trial. You will also not encounter it against a Survivor you go for after your first Hook, so long as you don't immediately turn around and go for the Unhooker (though you can still go for the Unhookee and know that they won't have DH or the Endurance effect if you wait a bit after the Unhook).
I'd wait to see how it goes, and if they decide to push any changes to tunneling or not.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382813#Comment_3382813
Honestly shards still support the company to an extent so… not entirely true.
to get shards you have to grind. By grinding you add to the server population. By adding to the server population you ensure there is 1 player out of 5 for a match. That means you’re directly affecting and influencing matchmaking - a key component to an online game.
Matchmaking, servers, account systems which are designed and improved/maintained by various jobs that need funding. Database engineers, Matchmaking development and analytics, Customer Service, Server architects (or service subscriptions) etc. which are all constant overhead costs.
And yes, a game currency that keeps players engaged in the game via rewarding playtime can serve as a benefit for player retention so players are more likely to spend money on DLC.
However, this can become problematic if there isn't enough consumable content to spend Shards on, so leftover/accrued Shards essentially become the main way players with high play-time buy DLC, or the select few cosmetics they want for their preferred characters.
I don't have all the data, but simply from looking at it from a worst case-scenario perspective, the current DBD monetization method does mean that the only guaranteed source of income for future development/maintenance (if we assume they are still sticking with "every cosmetic will eventually have a shard price") is the initial game purchase from new players, licensed dlc that can only be purchased with Auric Cells, and the initial Rift Pass purchase (assuming that players spend Auric Cells acquired from the Rift Pass on future Rift Passes). And I think the Deep Rift needs to be purchased?
Generally speaking then, the only guaranteed income from work (even if people love other content) DBD gets is from new licensed content, the initial DBD buy-in, and now the Deep Rift.
Which likely means that they are going to focus on accessibility to bring in new players, marketing for the game, partnerships with licenses over original content (especially for cosmetics), and exclusive/high-quality content behind the Deep Rift.
BHVR certainly does need to think up new ways to introduce infinite Shard sinks into the game. Before I would have suggested that they allow targeted item purchases with Shards, but with Bloodpoints being inflated and the Bloodweb being much more user friendly to consume, might be irrelevant. Could maybe explore the possibility of using Shards to convert one type of item into another, for those that want to get rid of "useless" Items they have.