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@NoHookDC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416296#Comment_3416296
Being able to tell their friends where the hatch is for an EZ escape would be BS and unfair. The Killer does not get anyone tell him where it is, so why should Survivors get a guardian angel guiding them to a free escape?
Because it retains the "work together or die" design of the Survivor role that is lost as Survivors lose Generator output potential through Sacrifices? It also means that Survivors can "neglect to help with hatch" if they think the other Survivor wasn't pulling their weight, tugging more at social dynamics instead of Hatch being a baked in system feature. (Also it would keep in mind SWF comms, so pointing out where the hatch is would also be integrated into SoloQ)
Killer performance only really having a meaningful completionist reward mechanism payout when getting a 4K and not at any lower threshold during a Trial is another topic, but tightly bound to Hatch. (The Killer has no Trial Milestone, such as with Survivors and Generators. When the Exit Gate is Powered, gameplay goals change for everyone. When a Survivor is Killed, there are no changes in gameplay goals).
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I hope that BHVR eventually adds an interactive spectator mode, a "spirit state/echo" for deceased Survivors that plays a role in opening/Locating Hatch. Let Survivors run around the Trial and do stuff when Sacrificed for BP as well, of course not interact with the objects that "Living" Survivors or the Killer can interact with. (Or see the Killer or non-Sacrificed Survivors).
Could try to integrate a tutorial mode there by having AI revenants/goobly mooglies chasing spirit Survivors in this Warped Trial.
Maybe have some of those revenants bleed into the Trial and chase Living Survivors if the Killer has too large a disparity between generators completed and Hooks/Kills.
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@Cynwale said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414559#Comment_3414559
Automatic voice lines for survivors is a bad idea, it would be better if it was like Left 4 Dead.
Perhaps a combo of the general and voicelines, but the voicelines should be approached as a "nice to have" and not integral to it.
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@Cynwale said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414557#Comment_3414557
General system would make the game a boring SWF simulator, I didn't pay DBD to play SMITE.
Information relay and Survivor voicelines are separate things if you're talking about atmosphere.
It's not like Wesker players are performing button prompts for his voice lines.
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@Cynwale said:
Survivors voice lines would be better, it would keep horror atmosphere and add Audio Chase with Audio distractions without needing to vault.
Voice lines would need localization and subtitles (so the same thing as text communication). Additionally it would need voicework for many different licensed characters both old and new and setting up meetings and recording sessions with voice actors.
A general system would be best.
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Don’t use phrases, use Iconography.
Then have the Iconography be overlayed on top of a global noise notification for Survivors.
Or have the Iconography overlap the Survivors portrait for a few seconds.
Or both, to cover when survivors are too close to one another.
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Are you going for a 2K or a 4K?
If you want fun, but also a 4K, you better enjoy being competitive.
If you want fun, but also to play casual, you need to reframe your expectations to a 2K
Try going for a 12Hook nice-guy as your average. You’re going to lose a lot, but if you let your MMR settle to that when you’ve placed your goal to handicap yourself to such a degree, your games will feel a lot better.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412740#Comment_3412740
Yes.
The reason camping is a thing in the first place stems from the size of maps currently in play and the amounts of safe pallets/windows that are scattered all over.
If a singular "bad chase" wasn't so catastrophic for killers (as in its easy to loop most killers for 2min+ with good RNG just holding w towards the next safe pallet) ... maybe, just maybe... we wouldn't see camping and tunneling so much.
It used to be that killers could moon walk and mind game most tiles... now most tiles offers Line of sight on the killer to survivors via holes in walls and other tiles that involves short objects such as cars and stone walls.
Honestly, chases just aren't fun for M1 killers unless they have a specific "anti-chase" power ... in which case, cause survivors tend to DC instantly when they don't get what they want.
I hate to say it but, part of the reason I like Oni is because it's a rewarding experience to actually have to chase as an M1 killer to obtain my power but needless to say, its very easy for some good survivors to make my life completely miserable on most map as they loop me from a side of the map to the other as I try to just get a 1st hit.
The game is no longer balanced for M1 killers and simply assumes that you are playing Blight or the Nurse and honestly, this is what ruins the experience for me at least.
Yep. Kinda hoping they can figure out a way to reduce pallet/vault density in the early-game. Make survivors build those chase interactables over the course of the Trial as a way to "prolong the trial" instead of just inflating gen times. Would also mean that Stealth is a bit more of a benefit at the start given that initial chase weakness at the start. With enough flexibility in placement of the chase interactables you could also probably address 3-Gens by moving excess Pallets and whatnot towards the 3-Gen.
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Yeah, actually. Not bannable, but a data-point to take into consideration with regards to how input interaction and falling stagger work when they trigger.
Seems like if overlooked it could result in an infinite where a Survivor is able to fast-vault off of a drop that is otherwise positioned with the assumption that the Survivor will eventually lose distance even if the Killer decides to take the full walk up the Hill.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413900#Comment_3413900
Idd prefer a Slashergame with some fighting over the ghost stories you just tried to sell me.
Not a fan of Horror, got it.
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It doesn't have a gradually increasing multiplier for each consecutive match until it reaches a cap?
Like 1.2x, 1.4x, 1.6x, 1.8x and 2.0x at 5 Consecutive?
Seems like it's missing out on gradually tightening the grip rather than being loose until a player has already decided to commit to it.
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I don't like the system RNG placement of Hexes on Dull Totems unless it's baked into the Hex itself (EG: Face the Darkness/Plaything).
I Think the Killer should be able to choose when to activate the Hex by pressing a Button and it'll light up the nearest Dull Totem with a Hex, allowing a Killer to both mindlessly spam placement at the start, or zone for specific Totems. (But still under the RNG of Dull Totem placement).
I don't like that Totems are so hit-or-miss on being locatable given player knowledge of spawns and very low Line-of-sight spawns like the medical crates in Lery's. I'd prefer if Dull and Hex Totems emitted an 8m audio effect similar in mechanics to Boons: Crackling flames for a Hex, and Entity Whispers for a Dull Totem. This would be easier to mesh with accessibility settings down the line as well as add more atmosphere to the game.
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Why aren't you playing For Honor then? You seem dead-set on making DBD a Fighting Strategy game.
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@Emeal said:
Dislike this idea completely, Unhooking ghosts? it would eliminate any ties this game has to an actual realistic slasher horror movie.
No thanks mate, Keeping things simple and in ties with slasher movie narrative is better, its what people expect.
I would rather suggest bHVR add more gameplay to a Camping/ Tunneling situation. Let survivors have a chance to knock the Killer over just to buy enough time to escape and prolong the struggle. this would be much more in line with slasher movie narratives.
So you know the groans and screams you hear while in The Basement?
Think of that as the connection to The Entity, the collective suffering, fear, and pain of all those that inhabit The Entity's realm which fuels The Entity.
The Shrine of Sacrifice itself being a conduit to siphon power from this Auric Fear Fusion process as orchestrated by the Mad Designer, the one responsible for the subset of the Realm of The Entity we experience as The Trials.
All the Hooks above-ground feed into the Shrine of Sacrifice.
At least that's how I'd lore-ify it.
But you're not wrong, it's less Slasher and more Eldritch.
I'd just prefer to go more of an Eldritch Horror route than Fighter game route.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413331#Comment_3413331
I see no chance of this happening, it would increase the Killers stress by making them need to search much more.
I rather keep the game as it is, dbd needs to have chase to function, if you add more hunting time killers will struggle for time.
And then they can take Aura reading Perks and the like, which now have even more value to contend with Gen stall/regression Perks by reducing the downtime between chases.
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Yeah.
Never been much a fan of movespeed buffs because of how they impact the loop logic on all loops as well as potentially being stackable to the point that it starts making Killers look silly.
Not sure when they’d have the bandwidth to make a Hasted animation for every Killer though, and/or if some earlier licensed agreements might make it hard to add new animations to a Killer.
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Probably best to add it to the Perk itself.
Otherwise:
Teamwork: Eyeless Beacons
While inside a Locker, Teamwork: Eyeless Beacons Activates. The Locker you are in is shown to all other Survivors as a Yellow Aura with a Global Noise notification that decays to red over 10s. Once 10s expires all Survivors currently in a Locker see each others Aura for 30/35/40s (The current number of Survivors in Lockers is shown via Tokens while the timer counts down). This Perk cannot reactivate until the duration expires.
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Undoubtedly, things are not as usually cut and dry as one might hope. It would be relatively dull if life boiled down to "everyone that I agree with is good and everyone I don't agree with is bad".
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Well by that logic, according to my voiced opinions, you think that the med-kit changes are a bad thing?
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So I guess instead of dropping an Item, Franklins should chunk a fixed % of charges off the Item a Survivor is holding. Also why does Adrenaline Wake Up Survivors? That's probably an oversight.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413295#Comment_3413295
didnt ask if you did or not, I asked why.
I like hunting Survivors (I don't use Aura Read Perks). I don't like that proxy-camping (by tunneling off of Hook notification immediately, especially if I'm holding a 3-Gen) is the optimal method of reaching the average K/D. Because it makes chases stale for me, as it's the same thing for the entire duration of the Trial after I get the first Hook in with very little of "The Hunt".
An Unhooked Survivors is always Injured, and the Unhook notifies me of where they were Unhooked, so if I haven't found another Survivor to chase yet, I can go back to Hook and follow the Blood Pools/Scratch Marks.
The counterplay to this would be "Well maybe get the Killers aggro and pull them away from the Hook", which I don't like because then a Survivor isn't trying to hide, with me seeking, it's them trying to pull me into a chase with them. Doesn't give me the "Scary Big Bad" vibes.
Even if I do find another Survivor, or they throw themselves at me, if I haven't hit them yet it still could be optimal for me to return back to Hook to tunnel the Survivor as I know they're around and are likely leaving information/being Healed and then I can disrupt the action of two Survivors and expedite the "Pressure point of no return on Gens", or the point where the Altruism Loop doesn't leave much excess work to be performed on Generators by Tunneling out a Survivor quickly.
So I'm trying to figure out how to introduce more "Hunting time" throughout the Trial, apart from the start of it. Primarily this means reducing how optimal a proxy-camp 3-Gen is, but also by giving Survivors more Tools to obfuscate information and play more mindgames. As I'm thinking about it more things pop up, though I am not overlooking that if the proxy-camp-tunnel/3-Gen is reduced in strength, it still doesn't address that Survivors still have a decent amount of problematic tools in their Kit, EG: Med-kit self-heal efficiency and charge scaling (which thankfully has already been targeted), BNP, Toolboxes in general, and all Pallets spawning at the start disproportionally impacting M1 Killers ability to jumpstart the Altruism Loop vs. anti-loop Killers.
So far my ideas for reducing the effectiveness of the proxy-camp/tunnel has been this and https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373198/rough-anti-camp-basement-new-mechanic-s-idea
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412740#Comment_3412740
Why do you think bleeding after taking a health state loss needs counter play
Sounds like you want bHVR to treat bleeding like Scratchmarks.
... What did you think I was talking about otherwise?
More dynamic chase interactions that also can be leveraged in use with anti-tunneling, so it's not literally the game saying no you can't tunnel this survivor, the Survivor actually has to make an effort not to get tunneled.
It's a one-two punch.
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@Dennis1242 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407744#Comment_3407744
I know but even with nurse, every chase lasted for about 20 seconds and 1 gen was done every single chase
Then it sounds like your next area of concern is finding another Survivor after getting a Hook/slug given your chase game is good. You can try bringing Lethal Pursuer to get a sense of where other Survivors will be on the overall Map after the first chase is over (and to get that first chase in ASAP)
Surveillance will help you reduce the distance you need to get to a Generator to hear if it's being repaired while patrolling blind, and can let you know if a Gen was tapped after you started regression on it (in whatever method you use).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412541#Comment_3412541
cause blood/ moans is the only way to find a hiding survivor. its a part of the game
Yeah... The only way to find an Injured hiding Survivor. You do realize that there's a Healthy state as well, right, that they start in? In which they don't leave Blood Pools or moan?
And how do they get Injured? The Killer needs to have been nearby, or the Killer made good use of an external damaging Tool.
Being Injured should be a detriment to incentivize Healing, yes, otherwise you can be found more easily or (in this suggestion) need to take it slow and steady, which takes time. However outside of trying to get massive healing speeds to heal off of hook immediately (or to bring a med-kit, thank goodness that got nerfed on the Self-healing front), there's not really any unique trade-off counterplay. (A Locker? Maybe? But you leave Blood Pools to it and still moan a bit anyway)
I'd be ok with the sentiment of "You're Injured, now gameplay is different", but it isn't. You just play safer with the same tools you have because you don't actually have the ability to hide anymore even though you're in your most vulnerable state.... I wonder if there's a way to flip that on its head so that Healthy Survivors are easier to find than Injured ones... Probably would need to introduce Entity-magic on that one.
@Spectralfx said:
Ngl, if you take away the pool of blood the killers are just going to face camp.
They need the 1st kill asap.
So if you remove the blood pools they will have to play even safer than before.
So because you can't tunnel as easily following Blood Pools after you Proxied Hook, you're going to camp, like a lot of other Killers are supposedly doing now anyway, creating more fuel for the fire to address camping?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411463#Comment_3411463
Yeah there should not be signals that you control so much, simple as.
Why not?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411907#Comment_3411907
Sure. Fully usable for SWF that plays like a team. For soloQ? Well. Are we trying to loose them so hard?
The problematic part of needing Pallets to be set up is indeed a communication issue regarding what zones of the Maps have chase resources ready and what zones don't. (This is also an issue with SoloQ vs. SWF callouts of what Pallets have been Broken as well)
Perhaps this can be addressed by whatever assembly method the Pallets having a discernable element indicating that "This loop hasn't had its pallet assembled", perhaps Yellow twine hanging on a wall that hasn't been collected to rope together the Planks of a Pallet. And perhaps also have Pallet Breaks cause a Global Loud Noise notification for Survivors as well. (Akin to the notification of a Gen being completed for a Killer), then a SoloQ survivor would be able to identify tiles that have had a Pallet placed by the lack of the Twine, and can keep track of dead-zones via the Loud Noise of a Pallet being Broken.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411895#Comment_3411895
Ok. If there was a way how to buff killer chase to equalize it, then sure. But I doubt that's possible at this point. That's why I am skeptical. You increase a speed of killer a little bit and suddenly equal loops are a lot killer favored. That sounds bad to me.
Not really interested in just boosting the speed of the Killer as a solution.
Maybe reduce the initial number of Pallets generated at the start, and introduce building pallets over the course of the match as an option for Survivors? This lack of Pallets at the start also creating a void where misinformation play becomes more important to do ok in chase, which can be facilitated by giving Survivors tools to suppress the information they emit to the Killer?
(EG: Crouching/Walking suppresses Blood Pools, Crouching suppresses Grunts of Pain)
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@Gandor said:
I think it's good idea to suppress grunts/pools of blood after unhook (during basekit BT time). It's a bad idea to have it all the time.
Reasoning being - tunneling is already too rewarding and nerfing said strategy (a little - it will still not help against hard-core tunnel where survivor never leaves line of sight of killer) promotes healthier gameplay. But adding it as an option to chase is not a good way to go. This would not help less experienced survivors and for good people there are usually already options (not counting S-tier killers/OP addons) - chases are fine the way they are and don't need any additional killer nerf. Killer should not really be in danger of loosing whole chase because of a cheeky FoV tech and then some timely walking behind some obstacle - that doesn't sound fair to me.
That sounds like a new chase tool that isn't just the same old loop and drop a Pallet, promoting more mind-game play and introducing more chase variety.
Would the current focus on Vaults/Pallets being the main chase tools need to be tweaked in order to fit this new tool in? Yes.
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@ShroudedGhostFace said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411437#Comment_3411437
They probably should be basekit perks. I’ll leave the hook and come back to it to follow the blood trail to the injured survivor. Also, I wear an expensive headset and usually I can still hear survivors grunts of pain even if they have Iron Will or No Mither. Breaking line of sight and hoping the killer doesn’t hear you or see trails of blood is a not a good tactic. If they’re dead set on tunneling, they will go out their way to track you which is why we should make it more difficult to track unhooked survivors.
Cool. Points for client-side audio of survivor grunts of pain when certain thresholds (like crouching) are met.
If you think that there are certain things that should be excluded from the opposition for balance reasons, recall that the devs do have the ability to distinguish between server and client. (what you see/hear vs. what someone else see/hears).
This is assuming your argument for them (the perks) being basekit is a result of the minor audio remnants still being audible for you from your hardware investment, and not the blood trails, which are exclusively visual and have no leeway for hardware requirements.
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1/4 of the opposition cannot complete their objectives.
At least 2/4 are occupied with rescue (including hooked)
I can patrol nearby gens to hold a 3-gen later in the game.
Either they let their teammate die after 120s, or it's at minimum a 3/4 investment in unhooking one Survivor due to Healthy grab, and optimally I can still patrol a 3-Gen area.
Rinse and repeat.
All of this excludes pallets and vaults which would otherwise exacerbate the multi-thread process of survivors repairing gens compared to the singular nature of chases, especially at the start of the Trial.
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@Emeal said:
There are serval perks that block blood, I could easily see bHVR adding one to do with walking.
But there is no way I'd accept it being made so in the basekit for Survivors.
Why? Because one of the strengths of Dead by Daylight is signal sending between the Killer and Survivor dynamic, there is a reason there are many signals so that being completely hidden would be impossible or very hard. I see no reason to change this, not even but camping/tunneling would persuade me in that. This had to be a perk effect instead.
A signal involves intent, that is part of communication.
Survivors do not intentionally bleed on the ground, it is something that happens when they become Injured, as defined by the system.
With this change, Blood Pools, or the lack thereof where there otherwise should be, it would fall under your definition of signal sending between the Killer and Survivor as now the Survivor is actively controlling the signal they are sending.
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@ShroudedGhostFace said:
I agree, we should probably give basekit Off The Record and basekit Guardian. I frequently tunnel and the pools of blood and grunts of pain make it easy to find recently unhooked survivors.
Both of those Perks are fine on their own if Survivors want to be able to maintain information suppression while being able to Sprint. They don't need to be basekit.
I'm pretty sure crouching still muffles Grunts of Pain. (if it doesn't it should)
And with proper line of sight blockers being introduced in maps it'll be easier for Survivors to disengage/walk away from the Hook without being able to be spotted from halfway across the map. There's also something to be said about the other Survivor needing to make the choice between throwing down a trail of Scratch marks to lure the Killer towards a known location of a survivor vs following the other Survivor to heal.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411287#Comment_3411287
Camping is a problem, but the solution is not to turn it into a fighting game with baits, blocks, and parries at the Hook.
Why not? Elaborate.
Seems this is the best place in the game to make that gameplay better.
Simply put, thematic reasons. Lest you get Michael Myers getting tackled by a jacked up S.T.A.R.S. operative. (I personally find this hilarious, but in principle I am against it.)
Address camping by making it hard for the Killer to be in two places at once, such as the suggestion I gave. Not by letting Survivors throw hands with the Killer being able to "1v1 them" just in one place.
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@SeaFlower said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411338#Comment_3411338
Having it always be available creates more problems. If it’s limited to after being unhooked, that’s different, but what compensation would you give?
Gut pallet spawns at the start of the Trial and have survivors able to build/set up more over the course of the Trial.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
If anything, this would be a better argument to just completely remove blood from recently unhooked survivors temporarily as an anti-tunneling measure regardless of whether they're walking or not (and I'm not saying whether this is a good idea or not), not to remove it any time they are walking or crouching. Removing it any time they are walking or crouching would do far more than just address the issue you're trying to address and isn't really necessary, but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it in some form specifically after an unhook.
Sure. Part of the reason I was suggesting suppressing Blood Pools while walking and crouching was to also facilitate more dynamic gameplay options in Chase as well (with detriments, as you're now moving slower), outside of having to always bring a Perk for more options.
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@SeaFlower said:
No Mither already does that.
This is more or less addressing a core game dynamic. (Blood Pool tracking)
No Mither is more or less playing permanently Exposed in order to indefinitely recover fully.
The Grunts of Pain and Blood Pool suppression are there simply to facilitate that gameplay shift without incurring additional detriments (not that it's a good gameplay shift anyway).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411267#Comment_3411267
The Killer can still retaliate, I specifically mention how in the post.
... Ofc. the Killer might hit you, which would be bad, but an attack can be baited out and then tackle the Killer. This should allow for plenty of counter play. ...
All this does it make it much more difficult to Camp.
If this game was For Honor, I'd agree, baiting out an attack to counterattack, or swarming an enemy to hit them from multiple directions.
But this game is not For Honor.
It's an asymmetrical Horror Slasher where the Survivors are looking to escape the Trial from the Killer, and the Killer is looking to Sacrifice the Survivors to The Entity/Kill them*.
Camping is a problem, but the solution is not to turn it into a fighting game with baits, blocks, and parries at the Hook.
(*Though I still think after sating The Entity's Hunger enough, and maintaining certain anti-tunnel criteria, Killers should be able to Kill Survivors by their own hands without the use of a Mori).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411243#Comment_3411243
I reject that, many slasher movies have instances of figthing back somewhat, this is why I want bHVR to gives Survivors lil more to fight back with in the special camping/ tunneling situations which we agree are the most unfun. This can be dbd's little time to fight back let survivors fight back in those special situations.
That's fine when everyone is rooting for the Survivor, and we're all the audience, and when the Jock then gets Killed relatively immediately.
That doesn't work when you're trying to incorporate that into a game where a Player is on the Killers end and the Jock can't be killed immediately for the shock value.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410319#Comment_3410319
Yes, but body blocking I think needs to be easier to do. If Tunneling is part of this game then counterplay to tunneling need to be established aswell.
I think the counterplay should be hiding/diversion. Not "Establishing Dominance" or literally tackling the Killer, that's unthematic.
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Not a quick one, but as a feature purely to address the edge-case of endless slugging, yes. (Bleedout Death doesn't count as it's not interactive gameplay and feeds into the Killers objective, meaning that leaving Survivors slugged indefinitely is actually a positive rather than a neutral.)
However there needs to be a strong incentive for Survivors to pick one another up. The earlier PTB implementation was way too short.
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@bazarama said:
Sure make the maps bigger and have absolutely no defence at all in end game as killer can't track hook and basement.
There's enough survivor second chance perks without creating a 'fith" survivor.
Reducing ridiculous gen speed should mean more chases and less camping.
If Gen speeds are ridiculous, why is camping an issue? Shouldn’t the gens be done before the Survivor dies on hook, leading to a 1K, and sifting the Killers MMR down lower to a more appropriate lobby for faster chases and/or reinforcing that camping isn’t a good strat?
Or is camping an effective strategy even in the face of these Gen speeds? In this case, how would slowing down gens reduce the effectiveness of camping? Or would it just make camping that much more of an attractive strategy?
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@SeaFlower said:
So what killer-specific compensation are you giving in return for destroying killer pressure through camping as a strategy? Because the basement portals don’t make up for it.
Gut the initial number of pallet spawns at the Start of the Trial and make Survivors build/set them up over the course of the Trial if they want more.
And maaaaybe also some Vaults would need some kind of interaction to "Open"
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@AssortedSorting said:
So what about the Hooks near those Exit/Entrances to The Basement? Doesn't that effectively expand the range of "They're hooked near basement?"
Hmm, that is a problem, especially depending on how fast it is to traverse these "Tunnels".
Maybe make it so that there's a Breakable Wall Object that starts at the start of the Trial, blocking the "Tunnel" threshold? Let both Survivors/Killer interact with it to destroy it, but anytime that a Player exits a Tunnel from the Basement, it resets itself? (This would also effectively add a buffer preventing the Killer from hiding across the map at another Tunnel entrance to catch a Survivor going for a Basement unhook).
How would that handle network race conditions? Is it a zone that a player has to stand in, an interactable button prompt to "traverse" the fog through the Tunnel?
Probably better to make it a button prompt. Only allow one player to interact with a given "Tunnel" at a time. It would need to be handled from the server side.
EG:
Blight stands near Tunnel 1 on one side of the map, after having Hooked Survivor A near Tunnel 3 on the other side of the map. Survivor B unhooks Survivor A in The Basement, after making sure there is at least one "Tunnel" for Survivor A to go through. Blight enters Tunnel 1, chases Survivor A who exits and thus blocks their Tunnel 4, Blight then needs to Break the Wall for Tunnel 4, giving Survivor A a head-start to break line of sight.
But what if Survivor A runs towards the Tunnel that the Blight is coming through in the first place? Should there be an indication that the Killer is nearby a Tunnel entrance?
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So what about the Hooks near those Exit/Entrances to The Basement? Doesn't that effectively expand the range of "They're hooked near basement?"
Hmm, that is a problem, especially depending on how fast it is to traverse these "Tunnels".
Maybe make it so that there's a Breakable Wall Object that starts at the start of the Trial, blocking the "Tunnel" threshold? Let both Survivors/Killer interact with it to destroy it, but anytime that a Player exits a Tunnel from the Basement, it resets itself? (This would also effectively add a buffer preventing the Killer from hiding across the map at another Tunnel entrance to catch a Survivor going for a Basement unhook).
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Body-blocking is already a thing.
I can hit you and you lose collision.
If you try to block again I can down you.
Now there's a slug and someone I'm still tunneling.
NGL I've won games simply because people were so butthurt about me tunneling their teammate that they stopped doing gens and just.... let me hit them.
The largest issue I see with tunneling right now is that because of facecamping, it's really easy to prevent Survivors from ever hiding from you or diverting your attention with scratch marks.
Start with addressing face-camping.
Here's my take on facecamping:
@AssortedSorting said:
Looking for feedback on how this might play out from a gameplay perspective:
Hooked Survivors have a Specter form on the Basement Hook, if they are Hooked on a non-Basement Hook. They can be unhooked either from where they are actually Hooked, or they can be unhooked from the Basement Hook via their specter.
- This should eliminate most camping, while also retaining the lethality of getting hooked near/in Basement.
Basement has "Tunnels" that lead to the corners of the Map, which can be traversed by both Survivor and Killer. Entering a Tunnel via the Basement will Trigger Killer Instinct on Survivors.
- This prevents basement camping to a degree that it can't be done at the stairway chokepoint.
- This gives Killers a base-kit mobility tool so that they don't always have to come from the same direction that Survivors see them go to add a sense of uncertainty
- Survivors can use them to try and get a mindgame if they pop into the Tunnels from outside of The Basement.
Unfortunately with the above I've realize that I haven't thought about how to handle hooks near the "Tunnels".
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Eventually. Reducing sunk-cost will likely lead to more players trying out new Survivors/Killers and in the end be a net positive financially (and from a data-storage perspective).
Killer addons would certainly be the sticking point. Make them refundable? Create a Bloodweb specific "Token" that acts as a generic front for all Killers?
EG: "Harsh Confrontation" - Uncommon Token, "Simmering Malice" - Common Token
I have:
1 Uncommon Token and 3 Common Tokens.
I can choose any of the 5 Uncommon addons once for a Killer.
I can choose any of the 4 Common addons 3 times for a Killer.
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The Wartorn
Apollyon from For Honor.
Blackstone's Grasp - Press the Power button to call forth a column of fog to race towards you from the edge of the Trial that leaves behind a dark trail. Once it reaches you, you may hold the Power button, upon release retrace the trail that was left behind based on how long the Power button was held.
The trail will cause Survivors that pass through it to become Oblivious. When the trail is retraced, it will Damage Survivors and cause Entity-block on Vaults and Pallets you pass through.
Apollyon also has Ultra-Rare cosmetics that are Blackstone Legion variants of Original Killers/Survivors
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CoH: Channel at the Boon to Heal yourself, limited to one Survivor at a time. (No more AoE, faster than Self-care and Team-wide, but necessitates going to the Boon itself).
DH: This one is really annoying. The effect itself is literally an extra health-state on-demand. It needs to be brought down so it isn't the ultimate option, lest everything else become powercreep or just sub-par. Limited uses is a way to go. Otherwise perhaps apply the falling movement stagger on Survivors who DH successfully to remove the speed boost and it isn't quite so much of a chase reset. (The counterplay should never be "wait it out", that's fine in a medieval 1v1 game like For Honor, not a horror slasher like DBD)
Med-Kits: I like it. Probably would have also introduced some kind of specialization, like the Ranger being able to be used to "Heal Ailments" while Healthy, charges used increase the decay of negative ailments. (Including Exhaustion?). Made the Emergency the fastest healing out of all of the Med-kits with the least amount of charges, probably requiring an addon in order to get a full self-heal from it with the base speed it provides.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
...why would they remove it?
Nurse, Hag, Wraith, Artist, and Spirit are all original characters, and all abide by the rules of how powers are given in the Entity's Realm (namely, usually involving the Spirit World). Nemesis summons zombies from RE2 and RE3 (remakes), who can famously be blinded by a flash grenade.
Removing the interaction not only wouldn't make any sense, but would also directly violate some of the easiest lore-friendly gameplay it's perhaps possible to have.
Tying in "counterplay" to a Killers POWER via an ITEM is a balance nightmare.
And if anything this allows them to introduce generic mechanics that the Flashlight can interfere with, such as the Killers ability to see scratch marks, aura's, Bloodlust buildup, maybe remove the Entity-provided speed boost, increase wiggle effectiveness, etc.
If you want to introduce a generic Lightburn, you gotta remove the edge-cases first.
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@Archael said:
I agree that gens at this map are very close to eachother.
But the problem here is that sorvivors left presicely those three gens.
Preventing 3gen situation is a responsibility of survivors, repairing one of those early (1 would be the best target), and leaving gen at the top of saloon would make a real difference
?
Why do you find it impossible for someone playing as Killer to think: "Oh, this 3-Gen setup is hard to even do with a full squad of players, I wonder how I can leverage Killer Powers and Perk mechanics in such a way as to ramp the game of attrition up to 11 by simply patrolling these three from the start, not having to worry about the initial gens as they fly by, thinking smugly to myself that I've found a way to exploit the system".
Because that's kinda the thought process that goes through my head, albeit in singleplayer strategy games.
If I can reliably hold a 3-Gen to force a win of attrition (by being able to fully contest those three gens indefinitely), why don't I just use that strat from the start? You might think it's boring to focus on it literally from the beginning of the Trial, but the formulation and execution of that kind of strategy can be interesting to people, just that in this case, it's at the expense of other people playing the multiplayer game.