AssortedSorting
AssortedSorting
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Cherish how they sounded like, or cherish what they meant. Either way, try to be your best self, even if it means being your beast-self.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444499#Comment_3444499
This may be what does make losing enjoyable because the shifting around the MMR numbers may result in playing more chaotic games, such as what used to happen during rank reset previously.
I mostly play for emblems than for a straight win/loss result. Some brilliant games I've had ended up in me getting sacrificed anyway. It can't be so fun when somebody who plays casually ends up caught in a series of matches that are againsy incredibly competitive opponents, such as an expert Nurse. The game may never feel fun in those losses.
I'd hope this idea may allow those more casual players to be less likely to verse those, instead taking on players who are more casual themselves. It's that getting stuck in that messy spaghetti of MMR which perhaps puts people off the game.
And so you bring a point to how you can enjoy a "loss", even if that loss if your character being sacrificed.
Meta-game progression does a lot to influence the after-effects of moment to moment gameplay.
So far as I'm aware, DBD is one of the only games where you can "lose", but still max BP, get challenges completed, etc. while having an "Entity Hungers/Loser" title-screen. (Advancement under the duress of loss)
I think that dichotomy can be expanded upon with in-game objectives (doing these can help overall, but the in-moment gain is normalized)
Survivors already have that with regards to generators and the Exit Gate (We powered the generators, but then all died).
Killer has nothing in that regard, so that can be improved.
SoloQ Survivor will eventually need that addressed (probably with regards to Hatch, and opening it for others as a "passing on" ritual).
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444971#Comment_3444971
Ok, I am going to read whole post just for you.
Just delete her
Yeah, that would help for sure... So original suggestion
Drop the Exposed condition from her power, it's not really adding much value.
they could keep the tracking utility and then you could give her a secondary chase oriented power directly or have her drones give her buffs with no delay or requirement like standing still so they can be more effective tools at a loop.
It's better idea than mca240's, because there is some attempt for valid compensation.
Exposed status as I explained earlier is big deal of power, she wouldn't work without it.
This idea would want to go with drones only tracking + speed boost and instead of exposed status give antiloop secondary power. Sure, that might work overall, but we have a lot of antiloop killers already and main issue is: too much work. BHVR will not do that major change on new killer.
Start end game collapse after 24 minutes and 59 seconds pass. Any remaining survivors will be killed by the entity and not count as kills for the killer.
That would fix hiding survivors too, so I don't see this as skull merchant idea. It might help against cheaters holding game hostage, because you would have exact time where each game had to end, so you could forcefully end it on server.
Great idea imo. Probably would increase it to at least 30, but that's just number change.
-Drones that exposes a Survivor loses it detection radius and will instead solely follow after the first or closest Survivor
-Drones that get hacked causes a cooldown before SM can put another one down.
-Giving SM remote control over her drones where it switch the FOV from SM over the drones
-Drones can no longer detect through multiple floors.
When survivor gets exposed drone follow them. Seems kinda like pointless change. Why not just get claw trap instead as survivor to deny her a drone completely? Seems complicated with little benefit to me. I don't think this is either nerf or buff.
Drones get hacked gives cooldown would be really annoying for skull merchant. It would help SWF, because they could deny her power when some survivor is in chase with her. I really don't like this idea. This wouldn't really prevent 3-gen holding, but it would hurt her while trying to chase other survivors, which is probably not what you want. Movement speed change on clawtrap was mode to help her chase survivors, this is doing opposite.
Remote control would be again too much work, we are going to have Singularity for that too, so kinda copy paste.
Drones can no longer detect through multiple floors. I really don't like that change. This allows you to be kinda inovative with your dron placement. It would get kinda brainless without it. When I play against her I always make calls what gens to get rid of first, because I know it's going to be pain to leave them into end game. If you have gen above basement, you have to get rid of it asap.
So summary -> those nerfs would hurt overall gameplay of skull merchant (feeling of playing her), but not really 3-gen. Those buffs are not realistic changes.
I can't be bothered on AssortedSorting' idea. Most of it is just bad or too complicated.
Genuinely, I think survivors need a way to take away drones more permanently.
Do I really have to explain why is it bad idea to let survivors deny killer's power?
You already can deny her power as long you have claw trap, but it gives her speed boost. I really liked that change. It's kinda trade off. I guess it would be fine to increase battery, if you don't like her drones. It wouldn't really hurt her.
No longer activate drones by distance, so she have to move if she wants to activate it
That's just stupid. You want to complain about 3-gen, but make her unable to leave 3-gen?
Remove the startup period for Undetectable, you just get it as soon as you enter a drone's radius. Given that it takes a few seconds for your terror radius to entirely shrink when you get Undetectable, I don't think that would be too strong.
I mean, sure. I don't really consider her stealth killer from start, her stealth is kinda weak on most maps. If you want to give her buff then sure, but I don't think it would change much. Stealth is not one of her strength. It can give you free hit, but it's not really reliable part of her power.
Well what about her perks?
Sucks.
THWACK! - shouldn't make you scream, it sucks that you get to know your aura was revealed.
Game Afoot - useless, impossible to save. You can create a meme build with it (rancor), but that's it.
Leverage - It's simply too limited and takes too long to get decent effect, there are way better perks for this.
So only thing that I would do:
Survivor will skull trap is still unable to hack other drones, but it doesn't make drones active -> this is just little help to soloQ, but wouldn't hurt merchant that bad.
Question for you, why shouldn't Survivors be able to hack drones with a Claw Trap on?
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@Riski said:
A neat concept but a few issues. Firstly an objective concept like this would always need massive mechanics overhuals as suddenly the goal of the game has changed for one side as playing for this is a win conditon (namely the exposed). As someone else said this could work well as a sourge perk or maybe even a power (perhaps a clutist loyal to the entity or a executioner for criminals brought into the realm) however my critism will focus more on the idea of a base mechanic.
Firstly however are the things I like:
- I like the utility added to base killer which could allow for some more niche perks to shine and additional use for basement to help make the game more interesting.
- I also like basekit moris being introduced here as a natural way to achieve them (a reward for showing devotion to the entity) as a way to make them feel more important.
- A somewhat personal thing, I like how the infomation side of this could be used to deal with stalling on the survivor side as that can be a rather dull experience. Similary a lot of people have issues with map size on low mobility killers which the teleport could also be of use to these players. Both of these applications do feel like bandaid solutions to an extent however.
- The final effect for 8 hooks is a nice insentive for going for hooks over kills if not a bit difficult to get.
- Promoting the use of many hooks makes killers use more of the map instead of staying in one corner to camp/3 gen. Simialrly forces survivors to consider where they went down and encourarges them to split up less so the killer awakens less hooks.
And my issues:
- Teleporting often wouldn't be worth it on most maps because by the time you walk to the basement you could of most likely just walked to the hook it self. I do like this from the idea of giving a benefit to basement hooking that doesn't encourage camping but you could use it to camp and then instantly teleport elsewhere onc your done to make up for lost pressure. It also doesn't make much sense for some killers to teleport in terms of flavour as that is a very super natural effect (why is trapper teleporting he doesn't have magic or fancy tech).
- Killer instinct sound neat but is exclusive to powers for a reason. Killer instinct often has additional conitations for some killer powers such as full condem, someone being near victor or someone cleansing a portal which is infomation the killer wants to understand as quickly as posisble. If I hear killer instinct I should instantly know what it means and it's not unreasonable for some of these to overlap with the shrine of sacrifice effect.
- 60 seconds of exposed for hooking 4 survivors is insanely good and would allow for a lot of snowball. A killer like wraith, deathslinger or spirit could easily win the game of one proc of that and if you do get two procs of this you might as well win the game. Perks like Noed and haunted ground triggering are potentially game winning only being heald back by either inconsistent or unoptimal timings so giving killer control over and affect like this is a bit much and the permient exposed could just be used for uncounterable camping situations.
- As a final issue this does give infomation, chase and mobility to killers which would discentivise the use of perks with these effects and encourage the use of slowdown perks which are already some of the most used, hurting perk veriety. I did say it could allow for more niche perks but that does come with the assumption that killer players wouldn't use it to make their best builds more powerful.
Adapting these concepts elsewhere could be a good idea but having them base would probably be too disruptive to the game as a whole and lead to quite a few problematic interactions. As someone else said scourge hooks could work (after hooking 4 survivors on scourge hooks apply 60 seconds of exposed, hooking on a scourge triggers aura reading on all hooks for a duration, after being unhooked from a non-scourge hook it becomes a sourge hook) or perhaps a power of some killer (a cultist/priest prepares the hooks like preparing a ritual, a bloody executioner gains power from using different hooks and fufilling his job ending in him being able to behead/mori). Overall good ideas that probably should be apllied elsewhere in game.
Thanks. The goal is to provide the trifecta of a Information/Mobility/Lethality power-up for getting Hooks. If a Killer is already strong in one area, they can either use the side-grade for flavor or convenience, or use the other aspect to make up for a weakness (EG: Trapper using the Teleport). And yes, while not explicitly stated, the goal is to have people assume this is the "win-condition" of the game, over just securing a 4K at any cost. Still isn't necessarily the only "win-condition", as it's best to kind of leave that up to the players to decide.
To your criticisms:
Teleporting often wouldn't be worth it on most maps because by the time you walk to the basement you could of most likely just walked to the hook it self. I do like this from the idea of giving a benefit to basement hooking that doesn't encourage camping but you could use it to camp and then instantly teleport elsewhere onc your done to make up for lost pressure. It also doesn't make much sense for some killers to teleport in terms of flavour as that is a very super natural effect (why is trapper teleporting he doesn't have magic or fancy tech).
True. Perhaps allow teleportation between two Awakened Hooks. Consuming Both. Still keeping the ability to teleport from Basement at the reduced cost of 1 Awakened Hook. (So it becomes circumstantial).
It is a bit supernatural, and may highlight more of the presence of The Entity as a 3rd party in the Trial. Though I can certainly see why that would be a point of contention.
Killer instinct sound neat but is exclusive to powers for a reason. Killer instinct often has additional conitations for some killer powers such as full condem, someone being near victor or someone cleansing a portal which is infomation the killer wants to understand as quickly as posisble. If I hear killer instinct I should instantly know what it means and it's not unreasonable for some of these to overlap with the shrine of sacrifice effect.
Very true, and the point of this whole "power-up" thing with these Awakened Hooks is to give a universal Power.
60 seconds of exposed for hooking 4 survivors is insanely good and would allow for a lot of snowball. A killer like wraith, deathslinger or spirit could easily win the game of one proc of that and if you do get two procs of this you might as well win the game. Perks like Noed and haunted ground triggering are potentially game winning only being heald back by either inconsistent or unoptimal timings so giving killer control over and affect like this is a bit much and the permient exposed could just be used for uncounterable camping situations.
Ah, I do not know why I didn't type that in, but the assumption is that the Exposed would "fall off" if a Survivor is downed. So no Quad downs. (However the Ivory/Ebony effects persist).
- As a final issue this does give infomation, chase and mobility to killers which would discentivise the use of perks with these effects and encourage the use of slowdown perks which are already some of the most used, hurting perk veriety. I did say it could allow for more niche perks but that does come with the assumption that killer players wouldn't use it to make their best builds more powerful.
Hooking a Survivor is slowdown. It's esoteric, really esoteric, but it splits other Survivors off of Gens, and if the Killer isn't camping it gets more Survivors off of gens.
But you're not wrong in that these changes would make it feel like a Killer is lacking slowdown, which might prompt them to take more up-front slowdown Perks.
However that's also kinda the problem anyway right now. Most meta Perks revolve around instant-gratification. Lethal, Nowhere to hide, etc. Things that people can work off of immediately. And that might just be an issue iwth Perk design.
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Huh.
Yeah you’re right.
Maybe tie it to losing (gaining?) a “stage of sacrifice”.
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Any MMR, any ranking system... Can be deconstructed and viewed through analytics to understand if it was a "sweat" game or a "throwaway".
However, no MMR is worse on average than having an MMR system.
Honestly? Making losing at least enjoyable/rewarding is what matters.
People may be butthurt if their end-game screen says "You lose", but if the journey to a loss is also miserable, people will just move on.
We all die eventually. Why not make the trip enjoyable? Mimic that.
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If it were balanced against average time spent communicating and repositioning for SWF heals it could be a contender for a SoloQ/SWF bridge.
Of course balanced against the fact that if used it enables another Survivor to keep doing their own thing.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444003#Comment_3444003
Honestly, I tip my hat to you😃
You are as if you were a doctor who was able to diagnose a patient's condition while dozens of doctors were unable
I have no objection
It might be the best suggestion I've seen😃👍🏻
Appreciate it. However I haven't played as her or against her, relying mostly on prior experience with the game (not that the game has changed much over time) and YouTube vids. So not sure how well the suggestion would fit, if it detracts too much from the feel of her power, or if it would take too much from her chase, or other overlooks.
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I've stopped playing.
Game has gotten stale. I've also sunk 1000+ hours into PS4 and have no interest in getting a PS5 (matters of principle regarding Sony's isolationism). The sunk cost does sting.
I still like the atmosphere and the concept, and will be keeping tabs on it likely indefinitely.
If there's a core rebalance to Perk accessibility and new player experience (especially controller integration for PC), I'll likely get back into DBD on PC. But at this point in life asking for a 100+ hour commitment to get back to my Perk station like it was on the PS4 isn't worth it. (Not even complaining about re-buying the characters, but the P3 investment for everyone).
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443330#Comment_3443330
Well, is there a cooldown period between drone shots, or is it like machine gun ?
Is it possible to add some improvements to the radar device?
Let me refine that, more or less pounded out some surface thoughts. I'm not all that familiar with Skull Merchant or her Power.
From what I've read of her Power Description, and from what I've heard on the forums, the largest pain point about her, is her Active Mode, and how she can keep Active Mode up indefinitely, which is compounded in point-defense*.
An indefinite Active Mode isn't technically a bad thing, however what's bad about it is what Active mode does.
- A Survivor being in the Active Zone is enough to show the Survivors on her Radar, giving her wallhacks without needing to move at all when playing point-defense.
- SM technically gets a speed boost for every Survivor in the Active Zone, making her patrol or intercepts in point-defense easier.
- Depending on the scope of the Active Zone of a Drone, Survivors may or may not have that much time to repair a Gen if they want to dip in-n-out of the zone tapping the Gen, given the slow decay time of Lock On, and SM's intercept capability given wallhacks and Haste.
- If a drone is hacked while she's playing point-defense in a small area, it's trivial to replace it, resetting up another Active Zone. Which also gives wallhacks.
- Active Mode also is LoS independent, which means clever use of terrain can make reaching the Drone that much more time-consuming and interceptable while playing point-defense.
- Survivors that successfully Hack a Drone (which they do instead of repairing a Generator), can't Hack the drone she replaces if the Drone is in Active Mode. "Walking into the Area of Effect of any Drone while wearing a Claw Trap will cause the Drone to enter an unhackable state" (And she can keep the Active Mode of a drone up indefinitely). So deactivating the drone is a punishment and de-incentivized during point-defense, but required as it's the only counter-play during point-defense. #########?
Basically, Active Mode has too little counter-play, Skull Merchant has too little time-investment required to keep Drones in Active Mode at all times, and Survivors are punished too harshly when Hacking a Drone during point-defense.
*point-defense - What I mean by this is when Skull Merchant places Drones in a manner such that she has the least amount of movement required to reach her drones, the Gens she's watching, while maximizing the distance Survivors need to travel to reach her drones/generators within her Drones Active Mode.
My opinion is that instead of making so many rules, constraints, and numbers regarding Active Mode, focus on Scouting mode which has consistent visual counter-play at all times: Avoid the Beams. Play it off like she's playing a game with Survivors, and balance hacking under the assumption that she expects the Drones to be hacked, and the Beams to more or less be visual flair, a game to be played.
Also a Drone suddenly descending next to you on a Generator sounds terrifying.
Back to your response: It would not be rapid-fire unless for whatever reason the Survivor runs back into a Beam. so probably a 1s grace period after a Claw trap is attached to a Survivor crossing a Beam.
If you want to improve her Radar (and tying into the fact that Active Mode no longer exists in my suggestion), Maybe let her press a button to cause all Survivors in a Drones radius to suffer from the Oblivious status which lingers for a duration? "Press [x] to emit Noise Obfuscation"
Which also gives her a more easily used disinformation aspect to her Power. if she can set up zones where she knows Survivors will not hear her coming. Great if she can place them behind the walls to Generators, at the expense of being unable to force Survivors to deal with a Drone immediately if the drones scanner doesn't pass through the Generator.
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No Active Mode for Drones.
She can place drones anywhere on the map. Placement is akin to a Nurse Blink that shows where the Drone will be placed.
Drones can never be unhackable.
Survivors that trigger the Scouting Mode scan range have a Claw Trap shot on them.
Claw Traps last indefinitely and Break when a Survivor is put into the Dying state. (Or Vault a Pallet, destroying the Trap and the Pallet)
Having a second Claw Trap placed on a Survivor links both of them and causes the Survivor to enter the “Game on” state, being Exposed for 60s and triggering Killer Instinct for 10s. Afterwards their Batteries die.
Survivors can Hack Drones when wearing a Claw Trap.
(Still has the claw trap application for Hacking)
Basically the Skull Merchant will want to learn the best chokepoints to place a passive drone to take advantage of the scan angles. (Such as placing to scan gens)
Survivors will always be able to deactivate the drones somewhat easily, but the Claw traps will persist on them until they Hack another drone, triggering “Game on”, or get scanned while having a Trap on. Or if they get found with a Trap still on and Vault it’ll destroy a Pallet. So there is incentive to try and bite the bullet and trigger “Game on” under your own terms.
Might need to up the penalty for being in-chase with a Claw Trap…
In chase she’ll need to know the best way to place a drone and then route-shift to cut-off the survivor into her drones sweep.
She won’t be able to use her Drones in every loop given hold W, which is where passive placement and zoning survivors into corners will take precedent.
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Pain Res, Surveillance, PGTW.
Once pain res triggers and Surveillance highlights the gen, go kick it with Pop since Survivors probably stopped regression on it.
Haven’t tried it myself, but should probably emulate that feeling of an objective pulling away.
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Use Terminus?
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Didn’t realize that Deep Wound was healed faster by another Survivor. How fast is it healed by another survivor, is it instant?
The problem with Deep Wound is that a self-sourced skill-check to make it go faster just cuts down off of whatever existing balance there is on its current timer.
Perhaps you could let Survivors interact with a specific map prop to seal/cauterize the Deep Wound, such that they could sit and mend to take up time, or they could run to a point, taking up time.
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It’d be better to iterate again on how Perks are unlocked, than to inflate BP gain rate which also impacts the grind retention of Prestige.
Could do something like playing [x] Trials with this character unlock their Perks for all others.
Or
Escaping a Trial as a Survivor unlocks all equipped Perks for use with other Survivors.
Each Survivor Killed unlocks a Perk equipped for Killer, etc.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442516#Comment_3442516
Well, you seem to be quite dead-set on your opinion, I am just repeating what I know Mandy or other staff members explained time and time again was considered unsportmanlike behaviour and griefing. One think for sure, no one will ever consider this an Exploid, and you can argue as much as you want, but thats a fact. But alas, I will rest my case. Good bye.
Projecting much? Quite a dismissive opening and ending.
Eventually this scenario will need to be addressed:
”I don’t like this Killer/Map, but I don’t want more DC time penalties. Instead of DCing I’ll just sit AFK, these guys won’t get a bot and it’ll be a 1v3 instead of a 1v4 making it extremely hard and unfair, but I don’t care.”
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442091#Comment_3442091
The Ada didn't do anything bannable, though. She gave up the moment she saw the Knight, yes, but she didn't stall the game or hindered the progress of the match towards its conclusion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442094#Comment_3442094
Yes you can. With the new system in place its enough to just click on the Thumbs up/thumbs down icon and report them. This generates a ticket on BHVRs side and they knew who all the players are. If you want to give additional info about a match afterwards via the website, just state that it was your last match and that you reported it ingame. Of course, in this case it wouldn't do anything, as the Ada didn't commit a bannable action.
Unsportsmanlike conduct, griefing their team, exploiting a loophole to avoid a DC penalty?
Once the Bot Survivors are introduced for DC’s, this type of behavior likely will become bannable with enough reports.
Play normally, then “get distracted at the possibility of a self-unhook”. Then you’re at least utilizing the tools the game offers you, instead of just pouting and choosing not to engage when you had said you were ready to play the game.
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@Xernoton said:
The problem with Blight is his versatility. He has EVERYTHING. A chase power, mobility, the ability to correct mistakes, low cooldowns, an ability to quickly get rid of pallets, crazy good synergy with popular perks and strong addons. What more could a killer wish for?
Even if you can't hit the survivor using your rushes you are still a 115% movement speed killer. This means you can still play M1 killer and mind game or chase normally when all else fails. Obviously, this is not going to be enough against top tier survivors but you shouldn't win against them, if you're not a top tier killer yourself.
Why would you not use his Power?
Even if you can't hit Survivors with Rush, you can patrol at +100% movespeed for up to 15s (gaining up to 15s of movement) at the cost of more linear movement (who cares when patrolling anyway) and 2.5s of standing still.
If you're not spamming his Power at all times when it's off-cooldown you're quite literally being inefficient.
Hell, even if you just perform a single Rush and don't bounce off of anything you're in the green time-efficiency wise.
2.5s Fatigue but you Rush at +100% movespeed for 3s once? That's a 0.5s gain.
Blights timers are wonky.
And don't forget, Mobility also means information if the mobility is persistent, which Blight's is.
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Not quite.
At minimum it’s a 4s + Fatigue cooldown if only one Chain Rush is used.
So you have a power that varies from these extremes:
A 4s + Fatigue cooldown for a Successful Chain Rush Hit in a loop , 4s of +100% movespeed applied in a linear manner, for a Health state.
To a Fatigue cooldown for 12s of +100% movespeed and an insta-down (using flick). Using Alchemists ring, his Iri, and the Blighted serum Offering.
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Camping promotes gameplay of one over the other to such an extent that one player plays the game while intentionally not interacting with other players in order to prevent another player from playing the game.
Tunneling off of Hook circumvents the “hide until found” part of a Survivors gameplay loop due to current hook dynamics rather than a skill difference. (Killer knows where the Hooked Survivor is unhooked, and is even notified of when the Survivor is Unhooked for some reason).
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@Frogsplosion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438423#Comment_3438423
The problem with chasing the Sabo survivor is it just doesn't make sense right now, so I got into a 45 second Chase just so I can get into another 45 second Chase and probably lose two or even three generators because of it?
Also gamma sliders are not suggestions, every game has one in this one should be no different regardless of the theming.
And no the FOV sliders highest setting should be 110, period.
I think hook sabo is an interesting gameplay concept and should be kept. That being said I can understand arguments if it’s too prevalent given how Toolbox charges work with sabo and the total amount of times an efficient survivor could sabo hooks in a map with a lot of LoS blockers preventing you from effectively scouting the Hooks in front of you when picking up a Survivor.
Until they can figure out a way to keep shadows obscuring the same amount of information in designated “dark zones”, I’m not concerned about a gamma slider.
if 110 is the max FoV you think should be selectable on the FoV slider, ok. But that is the default option for new players. You do not start them at an informational disadvantage with a lower FoV.
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@Frogsplosion said:
This exists mostly as a thought exercise and I guess a potential reference for the devs, feel free to add to it.
~System/Design Level~
No FOV or Gamma Slider
No visual impairment accessibility options besides colorblindness
No hearing impairment accessibility options for killers
Map design is horrendously imbalanced and far too random, maps are too large and cluttered, too dark and visually noisy or muddy. God windows and god pallets need to go away, maps should have a hard cap of no less than 10 and no more than 18 pallets, ideally it shouldn't be randomized at all.
3 Genning (both on killers for being able to hold very close generators with bad random spawns and on survivors for being unwilling to risk doing them if they are even remotely close together, both cases wildly extending game time)
Perks that exist to be absolute hard counters (lightborn is kind of a necessary evil at the moment but it and perks like it aren't good design)
The Hatch (encourages slugging by killers and ratting by survivors)
Netcode (would rollback work here?)
~Survivors~
SWF being able to pick multiple copies of the same perk (broken combos, horribly imbalanced games)
Gen rushing (TOOLBOXES IN GENERAL, Prove Thyself, Deja Vu, Built to Last, Hyperfocus, Scavenger, Stakeout, generators get done far too quickly, removes killer gameplay)
Flat Movement speed buffs of any kind (enormously elongates chases, often makes them unwinnable)
Adrenaline (may as well delete the endgame collapse)
No Mither/Iron Will (if Spirit didn't exist I would remove the audio perk stuff immediately, makes hiding really OP especially with how dark/cluttered certain maps are)
Aura reading in loops (makes looping too strong, unwinnable for killer)
Map Offerings (on a bad day 90% of all maps are survivor sided, on a good day maybe 70%)
Flashlight (shouldn't drop survivor, blind is too strong, effectively a stun, removes killer gameplay)
Flashbang (same, removes killer gameplay)
Blast Mine (lightborn doesn't remove the stun, blind is too strong and removes killer gameplay)
Head On (AoE is way too big, abusable in SWF, removes killer gameplay)
Hook Sabotage (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Boil Over (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Increased Hook Distance offerings (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Increased Mist Thickness offerings (decreases visual clarity unnecessarily)
Reassurance (once camping is dealt with this will just unfairly extend hook times)
~KIllers~
Camping (boring, removes survivor gameplay, forced to run dedicated perks to counter)
Tunneling (unfair to one survivor, forced to run dedicated perks to counter)
Slugging (often encouraged by the game's mechanics because of the hatch and hook deadzones/boil over)
Nurse (blinking is too strong, especially as often as nurse can do it)
Blight (too much freedom of movement in general, addons are busted)
Spirit (basically necessitates Iron Will/No Mither)
Hook Grabs (I think they should exist in some form but at the moment they basically just serve as a camping tool, I'd like it to be more of a last ditch effort to keep hold of the game while behind)
Instadown addons (really boring and usually OP)
Tombstone Myers (dear lord why does this exist)
Condemn Sadako (ditto, drags the game out)
No FOV or Gamma Slider
Fov, sure ok. Highest setting should be default.
Gamma, no. Shadow clarity isn't something this game should have as a setting.
No visual impairment accessibility options besides colorblindness
What do you mean by that.
No hearing impairment accessibility options for killers
A larger ask (more parts than just TR), but I don't doubt it's under consideration.
Map design is horrendously imbalanced and far too random, maps are too large and cluttered, too dark and visually noisy or muddy. God windows and god pallets need to go away, maps should have a hard cap of no less than 10 and no more than 18 pallets, ideally it shouldn't be randomized at all.
Map balance aside, RNG keeps people on their toes and trials from being so samey. Good for average retention.
3 Genning (both on killers for being able to hold very close generators with bad random spawns and on survivors for being unwilling to risk doing them if they are even remotely close together, both cases wildly extending game time)
Seems they are looking into that.
Perks that exist to be absolute hard counters (lightborn is kind of a necessary evil at the moment but it and perks like it aren't good design)
Agreed.
The Hatch (encourages slugging by killers and ratting by survivors)
Wonder if making Killed Survivors responsible for enabling The Hatch to open would act as a vice for players to work together, as well as being a lesson on how people can be presumptuous or spiteful.
Netcode (would rollback work here?)
As always backend programming work is no doubt in development. At the same time though there is a hard roadblock of physics and 3rd party hardware.
SWF being able to pick multiple copies of the same perk (broken combos, horribly imbalanced games)
I see that as more of an issue with the Perk design itself.
Gen rushing (TOOLBOXES IN GENERAL, Prove Thyself, Deja Vu, Built to Last, Hyperfocus, Scavenger, Stakeout, generators get done far too quickly, removes killer gameplay)
Yep. Mori's got consistently axed in effectiveness because it removed Survivors from gameplay too quickly. Not sure why that isn't understood here.
Flat Movement speed buffs of any kind (enormously elongates chases, often makes them unwinnable)
I'm not against short duration-based haste effects, but I am against passive haste effects with no duration.
Adrenaline (may as well delete the endgame collapse)Adrenaline (may as well delete the endgame collapse)
I look at it like NOED. No use prior EGC, and acts as opportunity cost. Though it probably should lose the 150% haste if it triggers while Exhausted.
No Mither/Iron Will (if Spirit didn't exist I would remove the audio perk stuff immediately, makes hiding really OP especially with how dark/cluttered certain maps are)
Depending on how the audio accessibility is implemented, might be more important.
Aura reading in loops (makes looping too strong, unwinnable for killer)
That's an excuse for more Undetectable/Blindness effects from addons/Perks being introduced. Information warfare is a thing.
Map Offerings (on a bad day 90% of all maps are survivor sided, on a good day maybe 70%)
Given the map repeat prevention being introduced, I'm inclined to agree.
Flashlight (shouldn't drop survivor, blind is too strong, effectively a stun, removes killer gameplay)
Flashbang (same, removes killer gameplay)
Blast Mine (lightborn doesn't remove the stun, blind is too strong and removes killer gameplay)
Agree to some extent, would be better if it acted as a Hinder/Boil Over effect. Photosensitivity is also a thing, and you could do a lot more than just a white screen.
Head On (AoE is way too big, abusable in SWF, removes killer gameplay)
Disagree on removing Killer gameplay. It's a neutral. Uncertain on AoE. Working together should be a benefit.
Hook Sabotage (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Disagree, Killer can drop a Survivor and chase the Sabo-Survivor who also wasn't on a Gen.
Boil Over (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Agree with dead-zones.
Increased Hook Distance offerings (creates dead zones, removes killer gameplay)
Agree.
Increased Mist Thickness offerings (decreases visual clarity unnecessarily)
It would be nice if Mist levels impacted Scratch Marks and The Stain in an equal manner.
Reassurance (once camping is dealt with this will just unfairly extend hook times)
Disagree. Then it means more opportunity to get more than one survivor on Hook as well, which is even worse for Survivors.
Camping (boring, removes survivor gameplay, forced to run dedicated perks to counter)
Agree outside of EGC.
Tunneling (unfair to one survivor, forced to run dedicated perks to counter)
Agree if it's not coincidental.
Slugging (often encouraged by the game's mechanics because of the hatch and hook deadzones/boil over)
Agreed when excessive, either through malice or necessity.
Nurse (blinking is too strong, especially as often as nurse can do it)
Agreed. I Think that she should only have one blink before a recharge.
Blight (too much freedom of movement in general, addons are busted)
Impartial. Could address mobility spam through longer serum cooldown?
Spirit (basically necessitates Iron Will/No Mither)
Still don't think she should have audio while Phase-walking. Makes her a hardware dependent Killer. Use Killer instinct if you want the Player to be able to tell where a Survivor is while Phasing.
Hook Grabs (I think they should exist in some form but at the moment they basically just serve as a camping tool, I'd like it to be more of a last ditch effort to keep hold of the game while behind)
Agree. Though less of a last-ditch effort once whatever anti-camp measures are introduced, but more of a "well, you had the tools to prevent this grab, I got lucky".
Instadown addons (really boring and usually OP)
Depends on the implementation. But haven't seen a good one yet.
Tombstone Myers (dear lord why does this exist)
At this point the meme and surprise factor for new players is what keeps it around. Perhaps the license holders as well. Still don't think you should be able to Mori a Survivor that hasn't been drained of Evil.
Condemn Sadako (ditto, drags the game out)
Agree if it's just slugs for days.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435794#Comment_3435794
Defending your generators now means you have an ego issue? 3 gens are caused by survivors not spreading out how they repair generators.
Or by the Killer consolidating where they patrol?
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@CheesyBabyBoi said:
After reading a bunch of the stuff, i think its fair to say that in the same way that being slugged and waiting around for something to happen is poor gameplay experience, slugging survivors and just camping and waiting around is equally poor gameplay experience for our purposes.
At the end of the day, if the killer wants to have a relatively crappy experience being campy and waiting for survivors to slug out, theyre gonna have that crappy gameplay experience no matter how they have to do it, and trying to address it wont make the problem go away.
As much as this sounds like a really good concept and i would love to try it out personally, it just doesnt seem like something that would be more positive than negative for the majority of people.
Which is a fair take, this is attempting to address an edge-case.
My only counter-argument would be that as it is, the dying state has far too many similarities to being Hooked. But that can be approached in more ways than making slugging less attractive (such as making Hooking a Survivor more attractive).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435227#Comment_3435227
And I do agree with that. I'd like to see Survivors early-game weakened, or at very least distributed across other periods of the Trial.
I do not think this is necessary feasible. I do not want to go into explicit details in regards to pallets for why they create a bad early game but I think that killer by design is meant to be backfoot in DBD. I don't really see that changing completely. early games will likely be more balanced when loops/chases are more equal in control for killer to shorten chases as survivors are to extend the chase. I think this is more of map balance/loop design problem in my opinion.
I agree.
And in my opinion, pallets are part of map balance/loop design. Because they augment how strong a loop can be.
Some side drivel:
A 4K isn't the balance point. It's around a 2-3K, so given equivalent skill the Survivors should nearly always reach the point that they Power the Exit Gates.
Anti-camp/Tunnel/Slug aren't pain points because of balance, it's because of how they make the game feel.
And I agree with that sentiment, sitting around for most of the time isn't all that engaging, be it being on Hook, slugged, sitting on a generator with no tension that the Killer might be around. But if those changes come to pass, it's going to be necessary to address Killer gameplay too.
I know for myself that a pain point when I play Killer is that at the start of the game the abundance of Pallets means that smart Survivors are able to chain them for basically as long as they're able to not cock-up. Most usually mess up in chase, but some are really good pre-droppers. This is balanced too, as I'm eating through Pallets like a woodchipper, weakening the loop strength of the late-game. But, if the match is balanced appropriately by MMR, it's assuming a 2-3K, it isn't counting Hooks, so it's possible it's a 2-3K game with only 2-3 chases and a whole lot of proxy-camping at the end-game.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300186#Comment_3300186
How can you say AFKing is against the rules under Unsportsmanlike Conduct and then quote the section where it says nothing at all about AFKing?
I’d say that if you intentionally start a match and then provide zero input towards it, you’ve effectively created a bot Killer for that match. Just one with no instructions or capability to follow them.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435206#Comment_3435206
It's way easier to pick a slug up than to down a survivor.
It's also way easier to unhook a Survivor than it is to down a survivor. But people still complain about facecamping for some reason.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434768#Comment_3434768
The killer spends more time downing the survivor then the survivor does recovering into 2 second pick-up. The action of downing is high time commitment move from the killer. The unbreakable effect effectively add a 5th player to the match because the survivor team can sit on generators while the pick-up naturally happens as there is no need for teamwork. The other concern of unbreakable is that the survivor can play passively while the killer gets punished for playing passively due to self-pick ups. it prevents 3 man and 4 man slugging completely. that is kinda powerful for base-kit mechanic that I feel like survivor should need equip a perk for that to be the case.
The Killer gains time as they don't waste time carrying a Survivor to Hook
One of aspect that BVHR wants to move away from is killer being forced to run generator-delay type perks. This is why there was an experimental PTB where they decreased healing speed to add more base-kit and attempted to weaken all forms of regression perks. I do think this is good direction but I think their approach was a bit too forceful in terms of fun factor. In order to move away from forced generator-delay type perks, the killer need to be able to generate pressure naturally and generate slowdown naturally. 24 second of healing was admittedly a bit too brutal. Slugging is a form that allows killer to put pressure on survivors. The slowdown is more subtle as it does not increase the time spending m1 by increasing healing time or increasing generator time but it add secondary objective for the survivor by getting survivors off generators to pick-up teammates.
now the Killer can "camp" a slugged survivor till bleedout and you have the same camping issues you see now.
Sure but first down bleed out is 4 minutes long. Its impractical from time stand-point to camp. You could argue that the killer could down the survivor two times where bleed out timer is reduced to 1:30 or less then camp but at that point, the killer is attempting to reap benefits from his previous downs. I thought BVHR was a fine with facecamping since they allowed that with hooks but as of recent dev stream, they are implemented anti-face camping mechanics. So maybe in future, they might need implement anti-face camping slug mechanics assuming this type of gameplay becomes prominent. There is definitely perks for this. Soulguard grants endurence when you are picked up. This is little bit like Off the record for slugging(but duration is only 8 seconds) and We're gonna live forever grants endurance for picking up the survivor from dying state which is similar to Borrow time. I think this is looking way too much in the future though.
The killer spends more time downing the survivor then the survivor does recovering into 2 second pick-up. The action of downing is high time commitment move from the killer. The unbreakable effect effectively add a 5th player to the match because the survivor team can sit on generators while the pick-up naturally happens as there is no need for teamwork
If the Killer picks up the Survivor and Hooks them, it circumvents this effect. One of the things I take issue with slugging is that it's functionally Hooking a Survivor in terms of available Survivor agency.
The other concern of unbreakable is that the survivor can play passively while the killer gets punished for playing passively due to self-pick ups.
I don't want that either, I want a self-pickup to be the worst option available such that it's only a good option when none are left.
it prevents 3 man and 4 man slugging completely. that is kinda powerful for base-kit mechanic that I feel like survivor should need equip a perk for that to be the case.
Base game mechanics are there to shape the core of the game. Repairing generators isn't a Perk, nor is being able to drop a Pallet.
One of aspect that BVHR wants to move away from is killer being forced to run generator-delay type perks.
And I do agree with that. I'd like to see Survivors early-game weakened, or at very least distributed across other periods of the Trial.
Sure but first down bleed out is 4 minutes long. Its impractical from time stand-point to camp.
It is impractical to camp, that's why you proxy-camp and zone, because you know where the Survivor is, and how to leverage your pathing well. It's the same thing that people are going to complain about if the current anti-camp measures come into play, because it sure as heck won't make it hard to tunnel.
There is definitely perks for this. Soulguard grants endurence when you are picked up. This is little bit like Off the record for slugging(but duration is only 8 seconds) and We're gonna live forever grants endurance for picking up the survivor from dying state which is similar to Borrow time. I think this is looking way too much in the future though.
At the very least it acts as precursor discussion to chew through, once the issues arise.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435099#Comment_3435099
All 4 survivors going down is impossible without survivors misplaying.
Survivors can prevent that from happening by spreading out so that the killer has to cover a large amount of ground to reach each survivor, during which other survivors can go to pick the slugged survivors back up. Even with mobility, long distances are still long distances during which someone else can pick up slugs. If the killer is also in a superpower mode, like Oni's Blood Fury, then Survivors should also be hiding to not be found in the first place. Then picking each other up.
The thing is, the downed Survivor still needs someone to pick them up, or they get Killed by bleedout. Take advantage of that, zone around the slugged Survivor while you patrol, double-back frequently. If you catch someone coming in for the rescue, that's a free hit, and if they commit to the pickup, another down with you right on the tail of the picked-up Survivor.
This is the kinda strat I used when I wanted to see if I could 4K slug as Ghostface. After slugging, feign a patrol commitment, but prioritize circling back and going for the rescuer.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435089#Comment_3435089
All 4 survivors going down is purely a misplay on the survivors' part. Why would a game mechanic reward the survivors for misplaying so hard they ended up in an awful game state?
You say misplay, I say unintended consequence of the dying state literally giving a Survivor less state agency than being Hooked (can't even attempt to unhook themselves) while effectively restricting their team contribution the same amount as being Hooked (can't do anything else but Recover and Crawl), while also allowing the Killer to leverage the time-efficiency of never having to pick up the Survivor in the first place, even being able to snowball with Perks and Powers like you mentioned above.
Given enough Lethality and/or Mobility, no, I wouldn't call it always a misplay.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435054#Comment_3435054
Infectious Fright is the biggest example.
And any killer with a limited superpower duration (Oni, Dredge, etc) all reward slugging and are designed around doing so when in their power.
BHVR also does not consider slugging a problem by default, only in specific situations.
And those specific situations? Would one of them happen to be slugging all four Survivors at once, as a result of there being no game mechanic that allows Survivors to perform a self-pickup?
I don't want to hurt Oni/Shape/Dredge or snowball effects etc. by making this mechanic too accessible. But there needs to be something, and a threshold of slug tolerance needs to be agreed upon.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435031#Comment_3435031
Since BHVR officially called it a strategy, balanced the game around it, made killers who have powers based around slugging to get maximum value, and perks that help slug or get extra value from slugging.
Knockout? Blindness from things such as the Thrid Seal? Perks that were released during a time where game design thought a BNP finishing a gen in half a second was good? What Perks help slug that aren’t old perks?
And by Killer designed around slugging I think you mean Twins? The ones slated for a re-design?
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435021#Comment_3435021
A basekit method of self-recovery is not balanced, and cannot be balanced. It will either be too weak and be useless, or not too weak and completely overpowered and unhealthy. The game is balanced around slugging as a strategy, and the unfortunate side effect is people misusing it out of spite, not being able to find slugs because of sound bugs, bad hook spawns that make hooking impossible, people intentionally making hooking impossible, etc. However, any possible solution to these less-desirable side effects has the problem of affecting intended usages of slugging.
Cannot, will not, weak or overpowered, and not a single statement defining those stances.
And when did the design goal of the game become balanced around slugging as a strategy?
I thought the whole point of using Survivors as chess pieces was when they got slapped on a Hook, cementing their state as a second objective?
I can get wanting to reformat into a slug focus as a possibility, but calling the game balanced around slugging indicates that slugging has a design flaw, or that the rest of the game is too reliant on slugging. It’s an in-between step. Not a primary tool.
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@Mushmallow said:
Oh look, someone that doesn’t understand why the basekit Unbreakable mechanic was pulled.
Instead of being a buzzwordy reductionist, you can elaborate on your stance?
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434764#Comment_3434764
This is basekit unbreakable. How often are you father than five feet from a given hook? They're pretty dense on every map but midwich.
The risk/reward is simply not there. It takes 30.5s to be fully recovered. It takes 32s to crawl up a hook. There's no reason to ever not simply try and get yourself up. You can either sit and try to recover which the killer can come back negate by picking you up, or you can climb up a hook which the killer can also negate by picking you up. Except one ties up a teammate and the other does not. There's no reason to ever recover.
It's weird how you're trying to torture this into anything but base unbreakable. It's like you're trying to convince yourself more than anything else.
With a crawl speed of 0.7m/s every meter is more than a second added to the overall time it takes to pull yourself back up.
Distance away from hook scales pickup time. Is it enough to act as a deterrent?
If the Killer was intending to return to the Survivor to pick them up, they now have a reasonable guess as to where they would be, if the Survivor chose to do a self-pickup, and if the Survivor is relying on a teammate, then it’ll be the same scenario where another survivor is pulled into the mix.
If the Killer is intent on just downing a Survivor and then never bothering with them again because the Survivor now has roughly the same amount of agency as if they were on a Hook, without the Killer having to spend time putting them on one, yes this does punish that playstyle.
The intent is to get Killers conditioned to pick up Survivors and Hook them.
You’re being quite reductive just trying to call it base-Unbreakable and that that’s why it’s bad.
I think that Survivors should be able to pick themselves up, but that it should be the worst option available.
So you don’t think the scaling time-investment with distance and higher probability of the Killer knowing your location is enough?
How about it’s an Exhausting endeavor, and can’t be performed while exhausted, or it causes exhaustion.
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@fulltonon said:
Oh, do you believe we needs counter for excessive hooking too? because that's pretty much slugging alternative and equally oppressive.
Just camping:
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@FootMan2893 said:
By saying that slugging is a problem that needs to be addressed you're forgetting that you're effectively saying you need to change the other side of the game in order to suit yourself. It's a PvP game, not everything the other side does for the sake of winning is going to be enjoyable for the opposition. In fact I'd say that it's probably a very common thing in PvP games that the average person isn't having fun unless they're winning.
Some of the issues can be solved by simply not putting yourself in a position for it to happen. Like getting slugged then moving to a place where the killer can't find you. Sure it sucks that your team isn't getting you but you chose to not want to get hooked for yourself, so those are the consequences of your actions. Same thing when a boil over player gets slugged as a counter to their build and then gets angry that the killer isn't playing into their trap. They chose to not want to get hooked so they gotta live with it.
I'd also like to point out that it's pointless to even mention the basekit unbreakable. Everyone already unanimously agreed it was a bad idea and it got permanently scrapped. This is just a similar idea with a few extra steps.
By saying that slugging is a problem that needs to be addressed you're forgetting that you're effectively saying you need to change the other side of the game in order to suit yourself. It's a PvP game, not everything the other side does for the sake of winning is going to be enjoyable for the opposition. In fact I'd say that it's probably a very common thing in PvP games that the average person isn't having fun unless they're winning.
My concern is player engagement, not winning. What you do, and its result, are distinct. You can certainly create a system where the gameplay itself is enjoyable, even when losing statistically. But I agree that if winning is the only concern for a player then I don't really care that they get annoyed when they don't win in a PvP game.
Some of the issues can be solved by simply not putting yourself in a position for it to happen. Like getting slugged then moving to a place where the killer can't find you. Sure it sucks that your team isn't getting you but you chose to not want to get hooked for yourself, so those are the consequences of your actions. Same thing when a boil over player gets slugged as a counter to their build and then gets angry that the killer isn't playing into their trap. They chose to not want to get hooked so they gotta live with it.
The Survivor crawled away. The Killer failed at finding them. They're not picked up for an ambiguous reason. The Killer made their choice to leave the Survivor slugged. On the off-chance that the Survivor isn't being picked up because other Survivors are occupied with the Killer, this is rewarding an unskilled play of losing your slug.
In the event that the Survivors are the ones fumbling and not picking up the Survivor, that's why this suggestion is tied to specific locations (Hook), with audio cues to make it easier for the Killer to find the slug if the slug forgoes co-operative action.
I'd also like to point out that it's pointless to even mention the basekit unbreakable. Everyone already unanimously agreed it was a bad idea and it got permanently scrapped. This is just a similar idea with a few extra steps.
I also thought it was a bad idea given the suggested implementation. This is my iteration on it.
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@pigslittlepet said:
Some good ideas here. The only real problem I see is teams abusing it. They'll bring sould guard purposely go down under a hook with flashlight teams so picking up is impossible. Along with every system that comes to the game you will find the lowest dregs of the game coming out of their holes to ruin someone else's game.
Can you elaborate on the scenario?
Part of the reason the 32s was chosen was because it mimics recovery time. In addition, if the Survivor is interrupted or stops the action, it's now 64s total before they could even self-pickup agian. Plenty of time to chase away Survivors running around a Hook with Flashlights, so far as I'm able to imagine at the moment.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
I am still confused to why the game needs a counter to excessive slugging. The counter to slugging is being good at the chase. Long chases results in slow downs with no potencial to snowball two simultaneously downs. Picking up survivors from dying state has similar risks to unhooking survivors. The risk is technically lower because at least you cannot get hook grabbed when healing another survivor off dying state.
Downing survivors should be the most rewarding action that the killer can do in a match. With 30.8 seconds of recovery and 4 minute bleed outs, the killer has to down survivors 5 times before there is any risk of dying. 5x4 is 20 downs. that is a lot of downs. doing 12 hooks which is 12 downs is challenging enough. 20 downs is almost double amount downs required for bleed out slugging to be threat. I still think survivor should have some minor regression(10-15%) bleed out penalty for picking up downed survivors in dying state. It would give killer more gameplay options for killer to win the match. They'd still need to get a lot of downs for any reward to come out of it. Only then can i see Base-kit unbreakable being base-mechanic.
If you let the Killer spec into bleedout kills, then you would absolutely need to introduce a way for Survivors to get themselves up in some manner. Because now the Killer can "camp" a slugged survivor till bleedout and you have the same camping issues you see now.
For all intents and purposes, being slugged is effectively being on Hook. A Survivor is out of play with regards to gen-repair, and needs another Survivor to get them out of that state. The Killer gains time as they don't waste time carrying a Survivor to Hook.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
This is just basekit unbreakable. You get that, right? Surely you anticipated this response.
Base-UB can be performed anywhere and can leverage crawling to its own gain.
Base-UB can be performed and still synergizes with co-op pickup given it's tied to Recovery.
Base-UB scales with Recovery speed.
Base-UB disregards Hook state/placement.
Base-UB contributes to map/Hook imbalance.
Base-UB adds no new gameplay. There is no distinct approach to utilizing it.
Base-UB detracts from gameplay. There is less incentive to go for a slug if they get up in roughly the same time it would take to go and pick them up in the first place.
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Mortal Fetish:
If the Obsession hasn’t been Hooked, and is put into the dying state, they will dissolve into fog and reappear on a nearby Hook after 16/12/8s if no cooperative action is performed on them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
They did - it's called +10s extra gen repair time and 2.5% progress loss on kick
If you can't stop gens, im afraid that's a you problem and not a game problem
It depends on what this person means by gen-rush.
Is gen rush just the overall completion speed of generators?
Or is it the out-of-the gate sense of falling behind due to the increased repair efficiency for Survivors at the start of the Trial before the Killer gets their first chase in.
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@bm33 said:
The emergency pallets in the event break immediately, killers don't have to break them at all. 1:26:40 mark.
'preciate it. I watched the stream, I don't know how I missed that snippet detailing the mechanics of the event.
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@1ettuce said:
Killers will be able to expose survivors after reaching bloodlust, reduce their stun time, and remotely break pallets and probably walls and maybe gens
Huh. Did they release a new update on what the details are? Out of the loop atm.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432705#Comment_3432705
At the expense of gen-time though, and at the expense of said pallets.
Totally agree. Depends on the time-investment of survivors, and if they get to choose where pallets spawn, or if they have to work off of the map saying “this pallet spot can now be created!”
At the moment though, given it seems Survivors have full control over when pallets spawn, and where, it’s just going to be a god-pallet loop munchfest that is going to suck ass for any Killer without anti-loop.
A free “exposed” means jack-all if Survivors simply pre-drop everything.
At the very least give the Killer a means to cut down defenses while chasing/patrolling.
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@Firellius said:
Alternatively, what if the ability to build pallets comes at the cost of naturally spawned pallets?
Move trash pallets to god pallet spots, at least in optimal play. Not sure how I feel about that.
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@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432206#Comment_3432206
Okay, fair I must've missed that It won't be in this PTB.
Still, they didn't give us exact numbers in the anniversary stream, nor any official post regarding this topic (as of now, atleast I haven't seen one), so I think they meant the feedback and/or questions when the PTB hits live.
I don’t think so. It came off lore like : “We’d like to have more open discussions about possible gameplay features while still in the planning phase”.
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I don’t think this is replacing the DC penalty. (Which should still be left in place, though perhaps not as high of a cap)
Just making it so that if someone does DC, it doesn’t just become a wash for everyone.
They’re still going to want to improve the player experience so less people DC, because better player experience means more player retention and more possibilities of store purchases.
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@FootMan2893 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432286#Comment_3432286
Hilly billy just pops out of a hole in the ground next to the survivor camp fire "Man that place is dark. And full of cobwebs. How do you guys crawl through that every match?"
f'kin lol
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432312#Comment_3432312
Killer is faster and if survivor is injured there's no speed boost.
I'll say it again for everyone to hear, if no escape should be guaranteed (look at DS and OTR de activating in end game) no kill should be guaranteed either (look at slugging for the 4k).
What you are suggesting is a win more for killer. If you wanna give killer instinct to killer you should give the survivor something too (running speed, or action speed).
Again, the team failing should not guarantee 4k for the killer. We've already said this. If survivors do 5 gens, by your logic they should all be able to escape. Killer was outclassed all game. Regardless, killer has much greater comeback potential than survivors not only through perks but by playing killer. The resources (pallets, medkits etc.) have been depleated. By your logic if killer has not killed anyone once 5 gens are done then it should be punishing for him as he failed his objective 90% of the match. Why should NOED activate? To gift the Killer an undeserved kill or more? If we wanna punish failures on both sides (with survives having a harder time coming back from a death at 5-4 gens) then Killer's snowball potential in end game, should all but disappear as well. He had 10-15 mins to make good decisions and he didn't. He does not deserve a compensation kill, not even the idea of one.
DS and OTR deactivate given that the fundamental game-state shifts in such a way to make their effects overpowered in the new game-state. That being an area they need to move towards to achieve a goal, instead of something they need to sit uninterrupted on to achieve a goal. They let the Survivor run from the Killer so they can hide to repair again. During the EGC they don't need to hide anymore, they just need to run. Their effects post EGC are stronger than prior EGC. If they were not disabled in the EGC, and were still viable Perks prior EGC, they would outclass all other Perks that are balanced only for the standard gameplay loop.
I'll say it again for everyone to hear, if no escape should be guaranteed (look at DS and OTR de activating in end game) no kill should be guaranteed either (look at slugging for the 4k).
How do situations prior hatch spawn have any relation to your argument in this thread?
What you are suggesting is a win more for killer. If you wanna give killer instinct to killer you should give the survivor something too (running speed, or action speed).
The Survivor can hide, after the Killer Instinct dissipates (This probably needs to be tweaked, but the idea is to give the Killer an area to search). Walk, focus line of sight. And then go towards an Exit to try and open the Exit Gate that now needs a guaranteed patrol.
But removing the possibility that a Survivor would stand at the Exit Gate, waiting for the Hatch to be closed, and then the Killer has a 50% chance of going for the correct Exit Gate, otherwise the Survivor escapes without doing anything apart from standing at the Gate waiting for Hatch to be closed.
Again, the team failing should not guarantee 4k for the killer. We've already said this
Who is "We"
If survivors do 5 gens, by your logic they should all be able to escape
I said "open the Exit Gates", which includes using a Switch to open an Exit Gate to start the EGC.
Killer was outclassed all game
Would you be saying that if the Killer got 8 Hooks and was in chase once the last Generator was completed?
Regardless, killer has much greater comeback potential than survivors not only through perks but by playing killer.
The point of an asymmetrical role. Stronger 1v1 but overall equal against a group. In this case equality is balanced through time-management of objectives.
The resources (pallets, medkits etc.) have been depleated.
Yes this is part of the attrition Survivors have against the Killer in terms of resource/time-management from the start. How effectively do they use them, or do they use them all up too quickly.
By your logic if killer has not killed anyone once 5 gens are done then it should be punishing for him as he failed his objective 90% of the match
This game is about attrition, and Ebony Moris that allowed the Killer to instaKill Survivors when they get downed the first time were removed in order to prolong Survivor experience of the Trial. (Well, The Shape still has his tombstones).
Each Hook State effectively acts progress towards that goal (not that it really feels all that special).
Until Survivors actually escape through the Exit Gates after completing the Generators, they are still in play. The Exit Gate Switches are not some new feature recently added and the game has been balanced around Survivors still needing to complete The Switch to open the Exit Gate.
Every Hook is progress towards that goal, and base-BT still being active in the EGC already punishes the Killer given the same spiel I gave for DS/OTR above.
Why should NOED activate?
It's a Perk. Not a base feature. It also is useless until the last gen is Powered and acts as opportunity cost while not in effect. Discuss its balance, though this discussion isn't relevant to the topic at hand.
To gift the Killer an undeserved kill or more? If we wanna punish failures on both sides (with survives having a harder time coming back from a death at 5-4 gens) then Killer's snowball potential in end game, should all but disappear as well. He had 10-15 mins to make good decisions and he didn't. He does not deserve a compensation kill, not even the idea of one.
You went from arguing about Exit Gate placement and solo Survivor closed Hatch scenarios being underserved kills to complaining about EGC camping resulting in undeserved kills.
What are you trying to argue in this thread?