AnObserver
AnObserver
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It shouldn't change. But I'm unsure if there are addons that influence Corrupt Plague duration and if they properly apply to her Power when it's activated by Survivors Cleansing vs. her using a Pool.
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@Pepsidot said:
I hope other things are added too such as being able to see the loadout of each survivor. Potentially in the lobby but certainly also in-game when the menu is open.
Then I as a solo queue survivor will know whether its best for Bill to get the unhook as he has BT. I will know whether the survivor being tunneld off the hook needs help by seeing if they have DS or not, etc.
Hmm, and it would act as a "pseudo" Ranked/Unranked, as Survivors that dodge because of other Survivors with meme/non-meta loadouts will start to self-filter themselves into lobbies with Meta builds.
(And lobby-dodging could be used as a hidden metric with which to influence a Survivors MMR).
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Maybe it needs to have a Cylinder with +/- some amount of distance, but check that the Bottom Square of the Survivors hitbox is within it? (Rather than whatever they're doing now, which I assume is any overlap. @Peanits do you know how it's actually checking for if a Survivor is within range of a Boon?
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The only concern though is how to handle Totems that are on inclines, such as the totems that are on Hills.
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Walls? Yes, it should go through them.
Floors/Ceilings? I agree that they should not (It should be a Cylinder, not a Sphere).
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So, a general Glow will occur on a Status change. This glow should be noticeable enough out of the corner of your eye and acts as "Hey,". Probably on the Survivor Icon itself, or some kind of back-glow distinct from the Status Icon and the directional glow.
The change of the Status Icon (and its associated Symbol) will represent "I'm doing ___"
If the Survivor presses the Beckon Emote button it will perform a directional glow with variable width based on distance that acts as "I'm over by ___". (Narrower the farther away they are, as the closer you are the more you need to rely on sight rather than map markers)
If a Survivor presses the Action Button, and then the Beckon Button, it then creates "Hey, I'm doing ___. I'm over by ___"
Releasing an Action and then pressing the Action again may cause a failed skill check, similar to the distraction of initiating conversation and not noticing the skill-check audio. So that is fine.
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Actually, the directional glow should probably ONLY occur when performing the Point or Beckon Actions, instead of automatically occurring when a Status change occurs.
As this would mean that a Player would have to intentionally cause the glow to occur rather than passively having it occur. Similar to making the decision to make a location callout.
The Action Status icon is mapped to the Action button, and the Location glow is mapped to Point/Beckon.
(This also raises the question of if dying/Hooked should remain Auras or implement the directional glow).
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Oh, and the directional glow should probably be narrower the farther the Survivor is, and wider/ a complete circle the closer you are. This would mimic "I'm at X location" with the Survivor attempting to use a mental map to the vocal callout without needing to manage a text-based system like VHS and not require any localization.
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Also,
Point and Beckon should have some kind of effect.
Point towards a dying/Hooked Survivors direction will change the Status Icon to "Rescuing" for a short duration.
Beckon will change the Status Icon to "Hello" for a short duration. The primary use of this is to proc the compass glow from the Status change.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742781#Comment_2742781
I think I'm done here. You pointed out what Discord (and other platforms) do for voice comms as flaws with voice comms. Flaws that would not apply to an in-game voice communication setup.
Then say 'I was talking about other platforms'. Fair enough.
THEN say you were talking about points against voice comms in DBD
THEN say you were talking about benefits to voice comms?
I'm just going to leave it here: Voice comms break the game. The sooner the devs admit this, the sooner they can add voice comms, and balance the game properly.
Until they do; SWF (who have voice comms) will always beat Killers, and Killers will always maul SoloQs (who lack voice comms).
And Killers would have to be balanced around SoloQ power, which lacks the voice comms (and thus information & teamwork) of SWFs. Which is why facing SWFs sucks so much for most the Killer roster.
Dude:
DBD does not have voice comms. I am talking about THE BENEFIT TO NOT HAVING VOICE COMMS IN DBD.
Because DBD does not have voice comms, this means that DBD players have to put in effort to setup voice comms with people using 3rd party channels.
This effort reduces the number of ######### in DBD related chats because ######### typically don't give two shits about setting up communication channels.
This effectively acts as a "passive" social moderation tool that requires zero effort to incorporate.
If DBD had voice-chat like Modern Warfare you'd have to implement effort on both Moderator teams and on Players themselves to both regulate and distance themselves from jackknobs with additional reporting effort and management of social channels that are forced upon you rather than being chosen by you (opt-out vs. opt-in).
And then there's the groups of people that don't use, or can't use, voice comms, who will still need to be addressed with non-voice communications anyway.
Just use the dang Icon systems and leave voice-comms to the player to setup.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742772#Comment_2742772
But your points don't apply to DBD managed voice comms. So I still don't understand why you quoted me, then talked about flaws with discord voice comms as points against DBD voice comms.
Discord?
I'm talking about DBD's current voice-comm setup. Their lack of one. And said provided benefits.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742761#Comment_2742761
Then why were you quoting me?
Now I'm confused. Are you for or against in-game voice comms? Why were you quoting me and talking about current voice comms?
Ah, yeah, I wasn't clear, I was providing points against the inclusion of DBD managed voice comms.
Edit: At least with their formal product and not an informal place such as a Discord Server.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742738#Comment_2742738
Player effort: If you're not in a friend group you literally have to coordinate with strangers to setup a party/call at the moment. Typically, people are not going to do that if they just want to give a passing "Yo mamma" joke. Effort is needed to engage, not disengage.
What? That's not how in-game voice chat works. Are you just making up flaws?
You get into a lobby as an SWF; you are now in that lobby's voice chat. There's your 'player effort'; you joined a lobby. The end.
Opt-out: People are lazy and may not know how to mute others, or not care to, or have misgivings about "silencing" people regardless of how toxic they are. Opt-out means that the initial feeling is that this is what is expected. Opt-in gives a feeling that it is a choice you make.
Again; you seem to be making up flaws. It's pretty common knowledge that you can right-click someone in a lobby (depending on game) and choose 'mute'. Or press 'tab' in-match and click the microphone next to someone's name to mute them.
There's your 'opt-out'. Again; I don't know any co-op games where people think a mute function is toxic.
Moderation: Takes time and resources. Is it a worthy thing? Yes. Should you try to make workloads manageable? Also yes.
Ok, and? Again; you're acting like this is some flaw of voice chat simply because you want it to be. BHVR should be moderating their game anyways. Voice chat is not going to quintuple their work-load.
And then there's still the necessity for the muted/accessibility framework for people that choose to not use voicecomms or that are unable to use voicecomms.
They can go into options and chose 'Turn off voice comms'?
And now, when Survivors can see them in lobby or are near them in-match; they have an icon of a speaker with a dash through it, showing they can not hear anyone?
It's like you just made up the most absurd flaws you could without actually thinking of if they're actual, real problems or not.
I'm talking about DBD's current voice-comm setup.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742709#Comment_2742709
What 'player effort to set up voice comms'? You have a mic and run the game? Boom; voice comms.
How is opt-out VC ripe for toxicity? Literally every game with co-op has it just fine.
Moderation SHOULD be on BHVR; it's their game.
Just freaking add voice comms so the game can be properly balanced. This half-arsed balancing where they pretend it doe snot exist is what keeps Killers weak.
Ok? So they mute it. Put an icon over their head for Survivors to see so they know 'This person can't hear me'.
The game will FOREVER be broken, so long as SWFs have voice comms, and devs keep balancing as if voice comms don't exist. Because that means voice comms are breaking whatever they throw into the game.
Player effort: If you're not in a friend group you literally have to coordinate with strangers to setup a party/call at the moment. Typically, people are not going to do that if they just want to give a passing "Yo mamma" joke. Effort is needed to engage, not disengage.
Opt-out: People are lazy and may not know how to mute others, or not care to, or have misgivings about "silencing" people regardless of how toxic they are. Opt-out means that the initial feeling is that this is what is expected. Opt-in gives a feeling that it is a choice you make.
Moderation: Takes time and resources. Is it a worthy thing? Yes. Should you try to make workloads manageable? Also yes.
And then there's still the necessity for the muted/accessibility framework for people that choose to not use voicecomms or that are unable to use voicecomms.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742632#Comment_2742632
All they have to do is add voice comms, completely with mute options.
Now, SoloQs have the same exact power SWFs have, and BHVR can balance around that instead of this half-arsed 'Can't be too strong or SoloQ suffer!' that makes it so Killers beat SoloQs but SWFs beat Killers.
Requiring Player effort to setup voice-comms in and of itself performs chat filtering.
Base-game opt-out voice comms is just ripe for toxicity.
Integration with DBD also places moderation completely onto Behavior.
Perhaps introduce platform specific methods in order to more easily setup (opt-in) party chats with platform specific/3rd party software.
Even then there are people who don't want to use voice comms.
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@Myla said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742635#Comment_2742635
It's not rocket science if you know that the rest of survivor is a doing generator and someone needs to go on the hook. It hands the information you on a silver platter. You have to be a massive pepega to not know how to use that information. You can start blasting generators with that.
It's not rocket science if you've got hundreds of hours on this game, at which point you'll likely be running kindred in SoloQ anyway, so you'll still have more information when someone is Hooked anyway. A Chase indicator only helps scrubs feel safe as Gen chads will just sit on them regardless already. And a Gen indicator is pointless as you should be sitting and spinning on gens regardless. Hell, if people feel "safe" that other people are on gens it's possible they may be more willing to do something like cleanse a Totem or open a Chest.
You know, that whole "The more people in a group, the less likely people are going to try to work as hard"
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Number changes are typically underwhelming if the impact isn't that significant.
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Even if they're given the information, they need to learn how to actually use it.
Handholding would be the game itself dictating which Survivor should go unhook a Survivor, or what Generator to do.
"I'm on a Gen", or "I'm going for Hook" (assuming they allow the Point action to apply certain status messages), still requires the Survivors to have the game sense of when it is appropriate to do so, and how to react if other Survivors are doing so, or if said Survivors fails in their attempts.
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Perhaps slow down on the Character release cadence if needed. Maps can be enjoyed by the entire player base just as much as a new Character. Same with new mechanics/Items/Addons/etc.
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@Phasmamain said:
Cross progression is in the works already from what I know
People hear: "We're working on it" and expect it in the next week. Best to temper expectations.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739888#Comment_2739888
To answer the first point you made here. The Designer in question was playing on his own stream, in his own time, not his work time and the person questioning him had been answered many times and was told to supply feedback on the forums. Badgering a designer on their own time, when they are not working is not acceptable and a pretty rude thing to do.
And the 2nd point there, that was also addressed in a post on Steam where Mathieu explained clearly about what he meant. He was not dismissing players concerns but making a valid point about when you get frustrated on something, it might also be time to take a break. (I got frustrated with Bloodborn and took a 4 month break before I was calm enough to play it again - Bloodborn is the game that makes me frustrated). It was not an attempt at being flippant.
We do listen to player feedback, however, listening and implementing things are two very different things. And game designers know more than we do with regards to what will work, what won't etc and which direction the game is going to take.
The LF masks have been something that's discussed for years, and the decision was taking to remove them to prevent them being used in a hateful manner. This is not about banning players who racially abuse others - as that is done also, it's about trying to remove the tools to make it easy for players to abuse others in this manner...I'm still surprised that people are opposed to this.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739876#Comment_2739876
Yepp exactly, it had been in development for some time - it's not a quick thing to implement. It was tested heavily also before we were ready to announce it to the Community, we plan things months in advance and things can be worked on for quite some time before they appear in the game. So many departments are involved in each stage.
The synopsis is greatly appreciated (And hey can now be easily referenced as a template if people are unwilling to put in the effort to make compelling criticism)
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Being able to participate in the match. (I do not find immediate camps or ultra-immersed spine-chill teams to be fun. Perks like Ruin or DS seem like necessary tools even if they can be overbearing as they help with the prior point)
Micro-goals with very in-your-face payouts. (Getting a down with Starstruck, completing a Generator as a Survivor.)
Uncertainty. (I have played enough to know general pathing Killers will take out from Hook, especially with Kindred, and the meta hasn't really shifted enough that player loadouts are rather stale or not impactful enough on the Survivors side)
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Hmm.
What about Videotape do you find frustrating?
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If it gets people to open the Exit Gate sooner I’m all for it. Gimme dat Bloodwarden value bby.
Edit: Oh, the current conditional is only once the last generator is complete. Then never mind, unless it get retooled to work with the EGC.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Because you cannot just nerf her. Nurse needs a full Rework, her power will either be too strong (like it is currently) or too weak (if you put too much limitations on her). Nurse basically does not play DBD and she would never be released in her current state. The only reason she exists with her power is because she was released early in the game when a lot of broken stuff was around - like real infinites, old BNPs, old Moris, etc...
But Nurse stays.
And IMO she is not even that hard to learn. Hardest Killer to learn? Yes. As hard as some players might say it? No. I have read players say that it takes weeks or months to learn her, but not really.
As I said, she needs a full rework. She needs to get her Blinks reworked (I dont know, like not being able to blink through Walls at default) and her Movement Speed increased to make her more in-line with other Killers. It should be easier to learn and play her, but on the other hand you should not have a Killer which basically cannot lose anymore when you are really good with her.
And you wont see ideas to rework her, because it is pointless. First of all, I dont think that any player can really think about a full rework which turns Nurse into a Killer which is actually playing DBD AND keeps her in a strong state. Because this would include everything, like creating a brand-new Killer.
And, second - the Devs just spent time to rewrite her to fix her Bugs she had for years. They wont change her drastically now, because this would mean that all this work was for nothing.
Last but not least, there would be a huge outcry in the community if they would rework her Power.
Part of me thinks that Nurse was only recoded because Pinheads Power borrowed from the tech pool Nurse uses (and it was easy enough to sign-off on devs looking into it with little spool-up time), so it wouldn't be hard to imagine Nurse being reworked at some point if parts of Nurse's kit get workshopped into another Killer.
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My guess?
Her kit is entirely skillshots and she can't chase without her Power.
Very little feels "underserved" when she gets hit, especially given that she has an audible "punishment" heard by all Players for unsuccessfully using her Power.
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But I do agree that it is a bit disheartening that the Dev update seems to imply that Killers are not going to receive any changes with core Killer gameplay at all.
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Voice chat is ripe for toxicity.
Auras provide an even more exact location with little input from the User.
Getting killed because of crap teammates isn't scary, it's irritating.
A better baseline allows for more impactful changes in the future.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2740007#Comment_2740007
Thats not the point. The point is these are causing unnecessary changes in gaming and entertainment that is only going to get worse every time someone says something offends them.
In this case there exists historical precedent and it's not just people being little bitches.
@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2740010#Comment_2740010
Again, I avoid arguing in hypotheticals because when you argue in hypotheticals you are able to change the scenario to fit your narrative.
Players are giving actual experiences of racist harassment in DBD - they are not giving hypotheticals. If you've been lucky enough to not experience racism that's great for you, others have not been lucky though and are giving actual experiences that others are trying to invalidate.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2740023#Comment_2740023
Again, reread my comments. I have said blackface is racist. I have said racist players have used the blackface mask to harass others and amplify their racism. I have not said just using blackface Bubba is racist.
Brain in a Vat Argument, The | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu)
I don't think we'll be able to see eye to eye. (And I do understand the hypocrisy this presents, I am tired and short on time).
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739895#Comment_2739895
Read the DBD lore, no where does it say he wears all the faces of his victims. What it does say is he kills anyone that he feels threatens his family and that the faces he does wear he takes on the roles of those faces.
The removal is to prevent further harassment through the amplification of racism from use of the blackface mask to those that are offended.
Also, responding more directly to your comment:
"Read the DBD lore, no where does it say he wears all the faces of his victims. What it does say is he kills anyone that he feels threatens his family and that the faces he does wear he takes on the roles of those faces."
This means that Leatherface wearing a black person's face isn't a racist action in a closed system.
"The removal is to prevent further harassment through the amplification of racism from use of the blackface mask to those that are offended."
This is the point. Leatherface using a marginalized persons skin like that isn't (in isolation), racist, rather the larger system in which it is presented in (media) is where it starts to draw parallels to racism due to more available historical connotations.
Cheap and easy statements like: "Using Blackface bubba is racist." Is reductive and buzzwordy and any following or preceding explanation doesn't matter if that's the conclusion drawn.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739873#Comment_2739873
You are creating hypothetical what if situations which are just a distraction from the issue of the Claudette mask being blackface. Even in your scenario you only give option of this or that when it could be both. I tend to not bother arguing hypotheticals because people will continue changing the scenario by adding what ifs just to fit their narrative.
It seems like you have completely misread my comments. I never argued Ed Gein or Leatherface are racist - I said they both only ever wore white faces and why and why their actual histories (not hypotheticals) aren't an excuse for keeping the masks in DBD. I originally brought up the video on not using lore as an excuse to keep a blackface mask in the game when someone tried to use lore as an excuse - you commented on that and I responded to you. I've literally said Leatherface the character isn't racist, it's the players using a mask to harass others and amplify racism. I have repeated multiple times throughout this post that BHVR has said the mask is blackface, that historically blackface is racist, and the mask is being used to harass players and amplify racism.
I've never experienced/been the target of racism in my life so all it is are hypotheticals to me. You do understand that people who are lucky enough not to experience it literally are having their hypotheticals shot down but are told that other hypotheticals are valid, right?
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739950#Comment_2739950
I still say its finding racism where racism doesn't exist. If the actions of a few trolls are going to change things for everyone, this is a problem. Its a problem for creative developers. Its a problem for story writing. Its a problem for the future of gaming and entertainment in general. People need to take a more reasonable approach to this. Excluding content because some people used it in a bad way is not the answer.
Listen, I agree with you, but this is a cosmetic with very little mechanical impact and significant social connotations.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739855#Comment_2739855
Thats a far stretch in your argument there. If were going to assume things about a fictional character then at least be consistent with the fiction of the character. And being consistent with the fiction of the character means regardless of the color of the person he kills, he'd wear the face too. That also does not make him or the idea of it racist or black face. That is literally just being consistent with his character. You can drag this out as long as you want, but every time I will tell you you're wrong because you are wrong. There are black people of all walks of life in this world. To make changes to accommodate some because something is considered racist is the wrong approach. You keep trying to argue that this is a good thing for black people but who are you to speak on behalf of them? Have you ever considered that maybe there are black people in this world that are sick and tired of being told they're a victim all the time and just want to be treated like everyone else? Well this cosmetic along with the others leatherface could unlock would be just that. It would be everyone being treated equally.
The problem is that this is not an individual 1 to 1 relationship of DBD (the game) with you (yourself).
This game is shared in a social setting, and these fictional characters are used as entertainment. Much as they were used for such in their movies/mediums.
White man wearing a black face has generally been a tool to depict blacks during a time in which it was generally just shitting on them and as such has been the generally associated connotation.
Had everyone played nice and not perpetuated this connotation of only jackasses using a symbolic similarity to blackface things might have been different. But here we are, with it having a disproportionate use with targeted harassment. Sometimes children need to be treated like children.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739736#Comment_2739736
She points out that in no Leatherface movie or in the real life history of Ed Geins do either ever wear a black face and why because people kept saying "but it's OK because the lore." Asking "but what if Ed Geins mom was black?" is just trying to find a way through what if scenarios that don't exist to make the blackface mask acceptable.
If you're going by Ed Gein lore there's no arguing there would be other masks hence her bringing up the IRL inspiration for Leatherface.
If you're going by the movie lore he never once wore a mask that wasn't a white person and there's alot of movies where he could've. First movies were probably implicit bias but the more recent they didn't do it because a white man wearing a black face would bring up the racist history of blackface.
In the DBD universe they made the masks but they didn't fit his lore outside "he wears faces" since even in the DBD lore it says each face has a role - he never took on a survivor role wearing a survivor face.
Milady Confetti doesn't handwave away the historical context or symbolism of blackface. She literally says you are on YouTube and can go watch numerous videos or read scholarly articles, she just personally isn't going to do it in her video when there's already so many resources out there.
Don't handwave away my argument because you're too lazy to talk about it.
We are talking about a general archetype here: If a child was abused by a mother, and their mistreatment from their mother resulted in a mental structure leading them to killing women and wearing their faces, would you classify that as racism or a mental disability?
Using that archetype in a generic setting does allow for scenarios created in which it may overlap with a topic that has a heavy relation to racism, such as the perceived symbolism of blackface, and that is why I have no qualms with this change. However, calling Ed Geins, (and Leatherface) racist is incorrect.
The core issue here is blackface, and its negative impact on people, NOT LEATHERFACE OR ED GEINS.
Stop trying to convince people that Leatherface and Ed Geins are racists. (It really comes across as such)
Convince people that Blackface has a significant historical association with racism, and that while on an individual level, Ed Geins/Leatherface may not be racists, but how they are portrayed in media with the inclusion of an extremely similar cosmetic option to blackface in a widespread medium keeps a fresh reminder of that in people minds which doesn't help with moving on and overcoming those old connotations.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2737334#Comment_2737334
Excuse me what? Is this real? Why in all nine hells would they do this? This makes the whole killer specific mmr useless
For the most part, nearly all Killers can rely on basic 115% loop gameplay, even without their Power. (Though some are slightly slower as they have range). This is where general mechanics can be used which have been learned while playing other Killers.
Then there exists map and mechanical skill which are even more universal than movespeed+M1.
Nurse is designed entirely around using her Power as she moves slower than Survivors.
MMR should ideally have a "Basic" MMR for killers that are flagged as having core move+M1 gameplay available. And then "Special" MMR with a much looser rating for edge-case Killers such as Nurse.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739726#Comment_2739726
Look up the history of blackface and you will see it is intrinsically racist. Within the comments you got offended by a title of a YouTube video, my saying Leatherface as a white man is wearing a literal blackface, and my saying people can be naive/ignorant about blackface. Your responses are opinion based on your feelings and it shows very clearly. You can keep believing the Claudette mask isn't blackface but BHVR after learning more about what constitutes blackface has stated it is and are removing it from the game - they'd rather the backlash from the few upset over the removal than keep something used to amplify racism in their game.
Racism is Closely associated with Blackface, not intrinsically. If you do not think that makes a significant difference, then please be understanding that some people have different thought processes than others and this kind of distinction is extremely important.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm honestly surprised I'm still seeing posts about the devs refusing to do anything about the cheaters when this latest patch literally does exactly that.
Like, damn, that is really surprising. I thought it'd at least shift to like, not doing enough, or doomsaying about how long it'll take before cheaters are on top again, not literally ignoring it being done.
If you've ever wondered why forums are mainly used at a distance with most teams, this is why.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2737862#Comment_2737862
Devs now see it as blackface (as Not Queen said in that clip) and as a tool used by racists to harass players. As of mid-chapter patch it will be gone. No argument on why some players want to keep it will change that, especially after multiple news sources have reported "Dead by Daylight removes Leatherface mask over blackface complaints."
As for lore excuse DBD Fog Whisperer Milady Confetti did a great video on that.
Her Logic ends in the result of non-White non-Female Characters not having unlockable masks (If it is to be a direct association to the IRL Lore of Ed Gein). Not the removal of all Masks. (And also fails to address the scenario in which Ed Gein's mother was Black, would Smartface be acceptable then?)
It should be noted that there are varying "types" of lore depending on a person's perspective, some that come to mind are:
- Lore behind IRL Ed Gein
- Lore behind the IRL creation of the character of Leatherface
- Lore behind Leatherface in the Leatherface Universe
- Lore behind the inclusion and design of Leatherface into IRL DBD
- Lore behind Leatherface in the DBD Universe.
Most "Bad Actors" use the Lore of Leatherface in the Leatherface Universe as the "excuse" for Smartface's inclusion, in which they are technically correct about. Leatherface was indiscriminate, it was likely just implicit bias during the creation of The Chainsaw Massacre in which there was no inclusion of a marginalized person's face used as a mask.
"Hansen later added, "The idea of the mask is that there is no personality under the mask. That was the idea in talking with Tobe and Kim. When they created the character, they said he has to put on masks to express himself because he himself can't do it. The way we tried to create him, there is nothing under the mask, which is what makes him so frightening."
I would also classify Milady Confetti as a "Bad Actor" for literally using racist logic in that Leatherface should not be allowed to use a facemask of a marginalized person because Ed Gein's mother was white, (so only white people would be acceptable).
In the end I do support the decision to remove them as most people are stupid and more concerned about skin color than the actual meaning behind things. (Such as the historical context or symbolism of blackface which Milady Confetti literally handwaves away as not important in her video).
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We've seen with Nemesis that the 3rd Person animations and 1st person animations can be significantly distinct. So it will be interesting to see what comes of that.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/304009/focus-on-other-forms-of-hate-as-well
BHVR's policy towards moderation is just so...odd.
On one hand, they remove the masks - which I am against on principle, but it's their game so I don't really get a say.
On the other hand, they've confirmed that anything short of actual threats or racial slurs in postgame are not only acceptable, but an integral part of online gaming.
Would you be against Dwight getting a shirt with the text “Let’s go Brandon!” on it? I have this friend Brandon and they’re an awesome guy.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2739310#Comment_2739310
What I mean is there is a problem with very few selected "elements" targeting a minority and making their experience ingame as miserable as possible, also they used Smartface cosmetic.
The cosmetic got removed, does the problem went away with it? are they going to do anything else or will they just "facecamping and bming on hook is part of the gameplay experience" and call it a day when the same exact thing keeps happening but with base Leatherface?.
Hmm, you make a good point. And thinking about it, this could be a problem that extends even deeper in the games roots as well, what if a Killer only chooses to Basic Attack a marginalized person? Or leaves a game that has a marginalized person in it, or even dodges a lobby with a marginalized person in it?
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The Call of Duty gamer in me would love if every Killer/Survivor had their own tracked monthly grade which would unlock a corresponding Charm of a grade-based coloring of their Adept Icon. But the entire Charm Selection UI would also need an overhaul.
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@OpenX said:
As if they will ever give you shards outside a holiday event. That is against profits.
Grades don't matter anymore since you cannot lose them. It's how much you played for the month rather than how well.
I mean, technically the more players play the game the more likely they are to make purchases as well, in addition to keeping the player pool count healthy which improves overall queue experience which may also increase player satisfaction.
It is also a static duration that can much more easily be controlled than an individuals daily gameplay investment.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738253#Comment_2738253
What I mean is Smartface got removed because it was used by some trolls to target a minority and harass by using it while tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering on hook.
Smartface is gone, do the developers expect for those trolls to behave like human beings and stop tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering now? What are they going to do once they realize the exact same thing keeps happening without the cosmetic? If someone targets an specific minority and makes its personal crusade to make the game miserable to them its ok because they now lack a cosmetic?.
It’s not okay for that kind of behavior. Though what I’m getting at is that in regards to racism, Smartface is more about direct and immediate symbolism with historical context whereas Facecamping is more about repeated use of a feature in a targeted manner in order to showcase intent.
While the problem area for Smartface is quite literally the thing itself, the problem area for targeted harassment with Facecamping is pattern recognition to showcase social Intent, rather than purely the action itself.
You can say that Facecamping is a poor gameplay experience, and address it in that manner, but you cannot say that Facecamping automatically has racist context. You need additional information.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738218#Comment_2738218
First, I did not make a comparison in which both are the same (for the obvious reasons) One is a mask, one is a playstyle. I specifically listed it as a "common denominator" to what goes down when someone is harassed.
Second, I never implied that I am for removing face-camping (in fact I actually said I wasn't asking for it to be removed) I said it needs to be looked, as in with a magnifying glass due to the way in which it is used.
This isn't a post about calling out "similarities" it is a post about what transpires during the harassment and how it is being enabled by the game itself.
When looking at Facecamping with a magnifying glass, what is it you are looking for?
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@HectorBrando said:
You raise a very interesting point because as you say, all the videos had tunneling and facecamping as means to harass those players, having the Leatherface mask was just the cherry on the top.
One thing Im certain is the people behaving like that wont stop because some cosmetic item has been eliminated, also while not 100% sure Im willing to bet the whole ordeal is just going to add fuel to the fire and the trolling is going to get worse, now they know they are pissing off a lot of people AND the developers, trolls crave attention and they got a metric ton of it, they got encouraged.
The difference between trying to write-off the Smartface Blackface as "It's Lore accurate" and a Player playing Bubba and only targeting marginalized characters is that while Bubba might have been an equal-opportunist skin-flayer, He also killed indiscriminately. So targeted harassment can't be written off as easily.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738190#Comment_2738190
I stated it pretty clearly right in the OP.
Trailing ellipses usually imply implications.
You make a comparison to Smartface's Blackface controversy and Facecamping,
Given recent events regarding Bubba's skinned face cosmetics this seems to imply you are in favor of the removal of all Facecamping as components of it fall under Racist Harassment (Similar to Bubba losing all unlockable skinned face mask cosmetics)
But you also state later on in another comment that you do not wish to flat out remove Facecamping such as with Bubba's skinned face cosmetics.
You imply similarities yet voice desire for differences. I am unsure what your goal is.
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I'm not sure what this post is attempting to achieve.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
I agree with everything in the post, shockingly, except for aura and slowdown being limited to 1 per game. Stacking mass slowdown on high-mobility killers is a problem, but with the amount of perks in the game I'm more for implementing choice-restriction on the killer instead of on the perks.
No Loadout UI restrictions. Maybe a Tooltip that notifies you if you have Perks that have conflicting states, but not a complete restriction.
For Killer, regression "Exhaustion" should be handled by Entity Block and suppression of the Generator Kick Action while it is regressing.
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I'd say the core complaint here is infinite Rush Hyper-Blight with Pop/Tinkerer and that Ruin allows passive regression on a Generator without Blight needing to take the time to move to a Generator to "reset" Tinkerer on a Generator.
Corrupt is Temporary.
Ruin can be Cleansed.
Pop is more effective on Hyper-mobile Killers and feeds into a Snowball given a lack of cooldown.
Tinkerer is more effective on Hyper-mobile Killers and feeds into passive/AoE regression Perks like Ruin. (Solution could be a requirement for the Killer to Kick a Generator for it to be able to proc Tinker again on the same Generator).