Alice_pbg
Alice_pbg
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- Alice_pbg
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got hag and jake.
but I don't really see this
You are the hag, you hate children and people who don't share as much intelligence as you or as you like to call them, stupid, you like to be around adults or elders and you are into mythology and paranormal related things, and nature filled areas
as literally anything like me :p
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1911197#Comment_1911197
Not really yes I know Laurie and leatherface has the 2 strongest perks in the game but this could introduce something unique
bubba doesn't have one of the strongest perks in the game.
he just has a really good one for grinding
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@ill_Boston_lli said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1705418#Comment_1705418
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706450#Comment_1706450
There is NO Way defending a 3 gen is holding the game hostage. Hold on let me allow you to finish this last generator so i wont get banned? come on now that's just poppycock
I think it's less about defending the 3 gens and more about never taking any chases...
but yes... like you, I also don't think defending a 3 gen should be considered holding the game hostage
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1708517#Comment_1708517
Is it a meme build when out of 100 matches (yes, i kept track) 87 run it? and 93 play like this:
insta down -> facecamp/proxycamp (includes basement camp) -> instadown everyone who comes near -> slug with noed
93?
Yes
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That's a meme build mate.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1707072#Comment_1707072
I did read it, I only quoted that one statement because it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not going to sit here and feed you.
There are people that disagreed with me and gave valid points. I responded to those points. We had a conversation. What you are doing is not that. Like you said, ONCE AGAIN, it's how you say it ;)
EDIT: Additionally you should stop with this classic troll tactic of "no you". It's getting old.
yes you are right
moving on
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1707048#Comment_1707048
You. Just. Did. It. Again.
"also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit."
Like you can't be for real with this kind of comment. I'm not MAKING you gish gallop you did that on your own and it's intellectually dishonest. If you really don't think you are gish galloping and being intellectually dishonest with your replies, I honestly have nothing else to say to you. You're not adding anything to the discussion, you're not actually addressing my points or even providing valid counterpoints when you do, you're intentionally trying to trigger me and/or derail the conversation by making it about the charts. Come at me with a reasonable response and we can have a discussion. I'm not playing this bit with you.
I wonder if you noticed the part in my reply where I said you wouldn't read it?
you don't actually wanna have a conversation, you want people to say "yes you are right" and move on.
so in the end, you want the echo chamber you accused these forums of being... ironic isn't it?
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@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706126#Comment_1706126
It's interesting how you ignore your own skill. Freddy plays himself. A good nurse is a good killer, a good Freddy is... Why should survivors skill matter but not Freddy's skill. I'm not saying that Freddy should be less lethal, I'm saying he should be harder to play. Bad Freddy players should lose to bad survivors,just like a bad Nurse will lose vs bad players.
why in that order?
why a bad killer should lose to bad survivors?
why bad survivors should beat a bad killer?
if skill is equal, shouldn't it be a coin flip? (not as in luck, as in you shouldn't be able to tell who will win)
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706899#Comment_1706899
I made 5 very clear points, you could have responded to those with bullet points.
Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW) and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences). I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response. I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW)
I broke down the entire post because otherwise it would be hard to see exactly what I was replying to.
I stopped in the sentences I stopped, because you used that first part as the building blocks for the following parts, so I had to address those before going on.
and also you kept going on and on about how I had to address your entire post instead of focusing on the part I actually had an issue with. So I went all in. normally I wouldn't bother doing it with that many breaks, because it's unnecessary, but I was annoyed at you.
also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit.
and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences).
they kinda are. each individual sentence is a point or a set up to a point or an example...to summarize, every sentence is helping your point in some way, otherwise they are useless and shouldn't be there.
So it's perfectly fine to address it in that way.
btw if I took entire paragraphs at a time, the reply would be the same, but you would have to keep going back and forth to see which part of the paragraphs I was replying to. So while the way I formated the reply might not be the simplest to reply to, it certainly makes it easy for you to see what I'm addressing at each point.
I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response.
you literally did the same, and didn't even have the courtesy of reading my entire post.
english is not my first language, so sorry if my ponctuation isn't to your standards...
I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
you do know this is like our 8th interaction or something right?
I made my point several times already, you just ignored it time and time again.
it does, but HOW I say things doesn't change WHAT I'm saying. I already told you the issues with your post, you refused to address it.
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
the fact this sentence makes 0 logical sense to be put there is actually fascinating... it's like you just wrote the conclusion without bothering to write the premise.
let's see why you say I'm intellectually dishonest...
1- I'm making this about the chart
2- derailing the thread
3- purposefully making my post in a way that would make it hard to reply to
I believe these are all of them....
1-My first post was actually about you playing the victim card when people disagreed with you.
-then you said you made the title as bait.
-then I replied to a different post, because there were new comments already, and called out how using past charts as support for new charts is not valid. and pointed out that when you use bait, you get fish.(since that was the reply to your previous post)
-then you doubled down on the charts being good. because you interpreted them in a way that they are.
-then I explained to you why the charts don't say what you think they say.
and let me be perfectly clear here... you COULD be right. but the charts don't confirm it. they are too vague.
If I give you a chart of the average of crimes per area of a city, you can say which area has more crimes, but it doesn't say what crimes, who commits them, why, or on who.
Your entire post, is not confirmed by the charts. Your post, is your interpretation of WHY the chart is that way.
logically speaking, your post without the chart part is A, the chart is B.
you should be saying A->B. to put it in another way, 'B is the result of A' or 'the chart is like this because freedy is op'
but you keep trying to say A+B->B.
You want B to both mean that freddy is OP, and to be a premise of the argument for freddy being op. It just doesn't work that way. and I was pointing out this failure in your logic.
-then you triple down on charts being fine without understanding why I say they aren't.
-and we go more and more into the chart thing...
I might have made it about the chart, but it's not how it started.
2- if anything, my first post is the only one unrelated to your first post. because I was making a comment on your reaction to criticism. everything else has been about your first post or at least one of your arguments for freddy being op.
so this doesn't apply.
3- I didn't do it on purpose. but I do see how it can be anoying to reply to it.
but you also made a post in a similar way to mine, and I replied to it. so if I'm guilty of this, so are you.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
I don't think you read up to the point where I broke down how our early interactions happened here in general terms... but if you did, you saw how that's not what happened. (you can also read everything if you want, just use my name to find the relevant posts. I already know you don't like reading long post, so I don't think you will read them all, but feel free to prove me wrong)
also, you can't both go into "this is a troll" and "my argument is correct". pick one.
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ouch... that does hurt spirit a lot.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706408#Comment_1706408
I never asked you to reply to the entire thing I asked you to reply to my points and not make this about the chart. You insist though to derail the thread continuously because I reference the chart as supporting evidence NOT as the basis for my argument.
Then you go and make the most half ass attempt to reply, literally single lines of text to single lines of text (newsflash a point is not individual sentences) in an effort to further derail the conversation by purposely making it as difficult as possible to reply to you, which I did anyway.
What you did is the most intellectually dishonest thing I've seen on these forums. Considering how this place is, that says a lot.
mate, you didn't even read my entire post, because you didn't even realize there was a reply to the newest one at the end of it.
apparently I need to allow you to gish gallop aswell...
but no...I'm the one that's intellectually dishonest here...
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@Clünge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706434#Comment_1706434
I'll translate...
"hey there new guy." - I see you have no posts, let me try to pick apart everything you have just posted on this basis to fulfil my ego. As I have in excess of 3,000 posts, this is an important role for me - we don't want new persons getting comfortable here.
"it isn't. because you will eventually bleed out and die. meaning, the killer is making progress towards his objective of killing the survivors and the game will end." - The killer, in the scenario stated, is taking the game hostage to a certain degree because they are preventing the hatch from coming in to play in the game. If you'd like to find the definition of hostage you'll discover it alludes to something held as security for the fulfilment of a condition (i.e. the other remaining survivor being held in the dying state, as security; to prevent the condition of the hatch opening being fulfilled).
"unbreakable? a waste? it's literally one of the best perks in the game mate." - Subjective of course. It can only be used once and you're not guaranteed of being able to use it every trial. Awesome when it can, and is, used. I echo my earlier comment of killers not venturing far from the survivor in the dying state, especially if the survivor is Bill. Severely reduces the impact of it.
"and no grunting means you will bleed out on the ground everytime, because the killer won't be able to find you. didn't you say you don't like getting slugged?" - No it won't mean you bleed out every time, with fellow survivors you'll find yourself being picked up more often. If the killer wants to take that risk, let them take that chance. If it is such a problem for them to find survivors in the dying state when they refuse to hook them straight away, then there is a killer perk for that! For someone of your presumed experience based on your number of posts, this particular statement is idiotic.
I'll translate...
"hey there new guy." - I see you have no posts, let me try to pick apart everything you have just posted on this basis to fulfil my ego. As I have in excess of 3,000 posts, this is an important role for me - we don't want new persons getting comfortable here.
sorry if that's what felt like.
I realized you're new, and wanted to say hi.
also, wanted to make sure I explained everything in as much detail as possible, because being new here means you don't know about past threads that talked about the same thing,
and the more someone else sees the same questions going around, the less nice they tend to react to it. So I wanted to make sure things were clear, so you wouldn't have to deal with unwanted sass.
again, sorry if I come off as an AH
"it isn't. because you will eventually bleed out and die. meaning, the killer is making progress towards his objective of killing the survivors and the game will end." - The killer, in the scenario stated, is taking the game hostage to a certain degree because they are preventing the hatch from coming in to play in the game. If you'd like to find the definition of hostage you'll discover it alludes to something held as security for the fulfilment of a condition (i.e. the other remaining survivor being held in the dying state, as security; to prevent the condition of the hatch opening being fulfilled).
the devs have spoken about this before. slugging the 3rd survivor to try to secure the 4th kill is not taking the game hostage. because you or the guy will eventually bleed out or have to be put on the hook.
it's not my opinion, it's just how it is.
"unbreakable? a waste? it's literally one of the best perks in the game mate." - Subjective of course. It can only be used once and you're not guaranteed of being able to use it every trial. Awesome when it can, and is, used. I echo my earlier comment of killers not venturing far from the survivor in the dying state, especially if the survivor is Bill. Severely reduces the impact of it.
being only used once is not that big of a drawback. Decisive strike is there to prove it.
It is indeed subjective, but I have yet to see a perk tier list that doesn't have unbreakable at least on A tier.
"and no grunting means you will bleed out on the ground everytime, because the killer won't be able to find you. didn't you say you don't like getting slugged?" - No it won't mean you bleed out every time, with fellow survivors you'll find yourself being picked up more often. If the killer wants to take that risk, let them take that chance. If it is such a problem for them to find survivors in the dying state when they refuse to hook them straight away, then there is a killer perk for that! For someone of your presumed experience based on your number of posts, this particular statement is idiotic.
you know people use sound to find the survivor on the ground right? and when sound was bugged everyone was having issues finding survivors from time to time.
removing sound would cause this to be way more common.
sure, saying "everytime" is just hyperbole, but it would indeed happen a lot more often.
also, that's quite backwards there, unbreakable is not that good because the killer never goes too far from the slugged survivor, but another survivor can pick the slug up no issue?
I have no idea why you wanna equate post count with game experience... but you do you pal.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706508#Comment_1706508
Read the thread, please:
It would seem that the longer you aim (and i'm not talking about 10 seconds or some outrageously long time) the cleaner your shot gets, with quickscoping seeming to have a high chance of going wide.
They are not making him 'miss shots that def should have hit'
all they had to do is to increase the time it takes to go from aiming to being able to shoot. like huntress and her hatchets.
if I'm able to fire, it should go where I'm aiming
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706400#Comment_1706400
ya know, taking into account that quickscoping is one of the things that is commonly named as something that makes him unfair-ish, i don't think it'll be missed that much by either side. if you know how to play him decently, though
Removing quickscope and making him miss shots he should have hit, are not the same thing.
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oh hey, I didn't realise you replied before I did. thanks.
gonna save that image...
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@Woodywool said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706462#Comment_1706462
But the problem is while he's playing on another account he haven't any dc by the game or the internet problem*. It's happening only when he's playing on a main account.
then he needs to contact support and explain that. Since it's possibly a bug in the game that would need fixing.
I personally don't believe that to be the case... but if it's true, it needs to be fixed
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it only gets to 72hours if he dcs a lot.
if he doesn't have a stable internet connection, it's on him to fix it. every time he dcs because of his bad internet, 4 other people have a bad game.
the punishment doesn't reset instantly. he needs to not dc for a while before he only gets the 5 min ban
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706384#Comment_1706384
No they haven’t. Please feel free to provide a link of the devs saying survivors hiding from the killer is bannable.
k mate.
this is @twistedmonkey a trusted user
link - https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/174349/survivors-holding-the-game-hostage
this is @Peanits a dev
link - https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/197291#Comment_197291
need anything else?
I'm sure any dev could come here and confirm this.
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@Clünge said:
On the flip side, as a survivor, it is frustrating when a killer puts your only other remaining survivor into the dying state and leaves them there until they find you.
Would it be fair to say that is taking the game hostage also?
I've had so many games where I've managed to revive them but because the killer never goes far (i.e. gen to dying survivor > repeat) it is an impossible task & a cycle of them tunneling the same survivor until they can latch on to you.
Bill has a perk to try combat that but it's such a waste. All survivors should have a faster crawl speed and no grunting - and one could argue no aura being revealed - while in the dying state.
Back to your point, as a survivor hiding is an awful tactic...agreed. However, keeping a low profile while searching for the hatch is vital. Then once its found, back to gens and if you're the last remaining, clench those cheeks and hope you make it before the killer gets there
hey there new guy.
On the flip side, as a survivor, it is frustrating when a killer puts your only other remaining survivor into the dying state and leaves them there until they find you.
Would it be fair to say that is taking the game hostage also?
it isn't. because you will eventually bleed out and die. meaning, the killer is making progress towards his objective of killing the survivors and the game will end.
when survivors hide and don't do gens, no progress in the game is being made and therefore the game could go on forever.
tl:dr: holding the game hostage is creating a state where the game won't end.
an example of a killer holding the game hostage, would be if all the survivors went into the basement, and the killer blocked the stairs refusing to hit any survivors. meaning no survivors can complete the gens and the game can't end.
I've had so many games where I've managed to revive them but because the killer never goes far (i.e. gen to dying survivor > repeat) it is an impossible task & a cycle of them tunneling the same survivor until they can latch on to you.
this happens because the killer doesn't want the last survivor to escape using the hatch. and this is the only way to make sure he gets 4 kills if he doesn't know where the hatch is.
and if he does know, maybe he can't patrol the gates and rather get you before the end game collapse.
Personally, I rather just kill the 3rd guy and finish the game, but it's still fair play if the killer wants the kill.
Bill has a perk to try combat that but it's such a waste.
unbreakable? a waste?
it's literally one of the best perks in the game mate.
All survivors should have a faster crawl speed and no grunting - and one could argue no aura being revealed - while in the dying state.
no. wanna crawl faster? get tapps perk.
and no grunting means you will bleed out on the ground everytime, because the killer won't be able to find you. didn't you say you don't like getting slugged?
also, aura reading depends on the killer perks, there's no reason to disable it just because you are slugged.
Back to your point, as a survivor hiding is an awful tactic...agreed. However, keeping a low profile while searching for the hatch is vital. Then once its found, back to gens and if you're the last remaining, clench those cheeks and hope you make it before the killer gets there
this is completely fine, however, this isn't what was happening.
both survivors were hiding until the other one died, so they could get the hatch. meaning, the game would never end.
or do you honestly think it takes over 30 min to do what you suggested?
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@Blazelski said:
Wow, this post is fantastic and accurate, and yet everyone is freaking out that he alluded to the stats. If he hadn't mentioned the stats, but had merely pointed out that Freddy is too strong and how to balance him, would everyone still be reacting so poorly?
pointing out that he shouldn't use vague stats to draw specific conclusions is not "reacting poorly".
either way, he's still wrong is most of what he said even without taking into account the stats.
@DerpyPlayz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704713#Comment_1704713
Omg, geez that must've been rough.
Aye tho, at least you tried. :P
and he didn't even reply to the entire thing like he kept asking me to do... isn't that cute?
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@MeltingPenguins said:
Tested a bit more, and it seems to be intentional.
Though, having talked to some friends who play FPS they said that's actually understandable, as apparently a lot of FPS use the same mechanic to stop quickscoping.
And honestly? personally I don't mind. He's actually more fun this way, for both sides (based on some survivors thanking me for actually aiming, with one memorable occasion of 'i like slinger the way you play him' (note: they died on third hook))
Seriously, dunno about you people, but I wouldn't mind these changes to be refined and made official.
ah yes... everyone loves to succeed at doing something just for the game to decide "nope" and take it away from you...
aim dressing is totally not one of the most complained aspects of the game right?
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@DCash said:
Sorry but everyone is wrong. Don't bother submitting a ticket. They didn't hold the game hostage. They were looking for hatch. It's pretty common for survivors to stop working on gens when the hatch has spawned. Take this as a learning experience. Learn the hatch mechanics. If this happens again, go find the hatch. I bet you find someone crouched around or in a locker. Or run whispers like me and never have this problem. Stealth meta is pretty strong right now so whispers is on all my killers.
they did hold the game hostage. and devs have confirmed before that this is indeed holding the game hostage.
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just gonna meme and say it's springtrap
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704713#Comment_1704713
"why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position."
Because the thread is about Freddy and there is evidence to support my claims, unlike both Nurse and Spirit which the data does not support the claims made against them.
"why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it."
The chart is all ranks so this cannot be the case. You could make this argument for a chart showing only red ranks, but even then because there is a trend between all ranks and red ranks, and there is a trend from the previous data dump it would be untrue.
"No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide."
The cooldown is very quick even when survivors are awake, such that you should always have it available after getting a hooking or otherwise applying pressure elsewhere on the map. And I never said Billy or any other killer doesn't have pressure, I said Freddy has the MOST pressure because he can travel the entire map in under 5 seconds. No other killer can go from one side of the map to the other that fast.
"no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here."
You miss the point. Of course it was your skill, but you needed to be much more skilled to run from a good Clown than a good Legion, for example, who has no chase power. Just as you'd have to be a lot more skill to run from a good Freddy. The difference between Clown and Freddy (for now at least) is that Clown's only got the chase. It would be nice if he had SOME other things sure, but Freddy has almost equal potential in a chase AND THEN SOME (actually and then a lot).
"do you actually have any example that isn't bt? it's just bt isn't it? did you try waking up before going for a save?"
Considering BT is a major meta perk for survivors, that's all I really need to say honestly. He gets a FREE counter to it where other killers have some kind of drawback. Wraith and Pig need to stay undetectable while the save is made. GF can be revealed. Other undetectable perks have limits. Freddy just needs to hit you OR you just need to be asleep for him to counter BT. I've literally just camped while someone tried to save, waited for them to fall asleep, hit them so they save, then down the guy they just saved because I know he doesn't have BT. In other words, I can both prevent the save and prevent BT from activating where other killers can only do one at a time. Him being able to counter this specific perk this way is probably the major reason he does as well as he does.
"you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here."
You still miss the point. Yes 32m is a good distance to react, the point is he gets something for free other killers don't get. Any other killer, including the MF'er that turns invisible, can be spotted coming from more than 32m away. Not Freddy. You can only react once you are within 32m, or you stay asleep and eat whatever penalties that comes with.
"and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal. They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them."
While I won't disagree his other add-ons suck, saying his chains/rope are bad is flat out wrong. They are some of the most effective add-ons in the game. Yes they were nerfed but still no other killer has built in passive slowdown on gens. NONE. Huntress has to hit you with a hatchet and it only lasts 2 minutes that's the closest comparison, but that is insanely weak compared to an up to 8% debuff passive affecting everyone with chains. To sit here and say "their effects are minimal" is like saying "iri head reduces hatchet count to 1 so the effects are minimal".
"he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?"
Old Freddy did yes.
"Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?"
Like I said before 1) she has to actively do something to counter BT and has a drawback to that counter (she is slower), and 2) pig traps are not a slowdown mechanic they are an alternative objective. She still has nothing to actually slow down survivors that want to do gens. I could finish 2 gens with a trap on then do 1 box and get it off. That's not the same thing as applying a universal 12% debuff from my power alone to gen speed.
"he has a teleport and snares."
And passive slowdown, and pallets, and tracking (via screams/pallet drops), and passive BT counter, and semi-stealth. You really don't play Freddy much do you?
Also the major difference between him have multiple powers and a killer like Demo or Pig is that Demo and Pigs tools are not nearly as good as Freddy's. His teleport is superior, his anti-BT is superior, his chase potential is superior, everything he does is better than either of them.
"different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others."
Do those people have 2 different data dumps demonstrating a visible trend? No? Okay moving on.
"You have yet to demonstrate the problem"
This literally just made me LOL.
Honestly not getting into the rest as they were just my suggestions for what to do about him. I'm not really caring to push that, except for the smaller snares, removal of Oblivious from Dream World and it being placed onto an add-on, and the reworking of his chains/rope add-ons. Also I would really like the change to Paint Thinner I suggested, and I would like his other add-ons be made more viable too. I'm not asking to make him ######### tier again.
I made a very clear and valid statement about Freddy being too strong which I then supported with the chart (and subsequently the charts from last time). I applaud your commitment to quoting my entire post and making as difficult to respond to you as possible, but your counter points just don't hold up to scrutiny. You can sit there and tell me how you beat Freddy all the time or some #########, but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong.
"this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it."
He literally said the same things I did. SMH His only addition really was the 1:1 / 1:2 ratio thing.
"why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position."
Because the thread is about Freddy
So in this thread about freddy, why do you not wanna hear about freddy not being op?
and there is evidence to support my claims,
there isn't, but go on
unlike both Nurse and Spirit which the data does not support the claims made against them.
what are these claims? I didn't even mention nurse or spirit here. I never mentioned spirit anywhere on this thread.
are you confusing what I said with what other people are saying?
"why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it."
The chart is all ranks so this cannot be the case.
False. the graph shows a small pick rate and a big kill rate. inferring that the small group of people that play freddy are good at it, is the natural conclusion.
works he same way for pig. not a lot of people play her, but on average the ones that do play her, play her well.
and rank is irrelevant in this scenario.
You could make this argument for a chart showing only red ranks,
ranks are still irrelevant in this scenario.
if I tell you "this group of people on average gets an A in biology", doesn't matter who is in that group, the average is still "A in biology"
but even then because there is a trend between all ranks and red ranks, and there is a trend from the previous data dump it would be untrue.
no it wouldn't... I really don't think you understand graphs.
"No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide."
The cooldown is very quick even when survivors are awake,
very quick is a matter of perspective. 45 seconds could be quick or an eternity depending on circunstances.
such that you should always have it available after getting a hooking or otherwise applying pressure elsewhere on the map.
and when you don't?
And I never said Billy or any other killer doesn't have pressure, I said Freddy has the MOST pressure because he can travel the entire map in under 5 seconds. No other killer can go from one side of the map to the other that fast.
I didn't say you said billy didn't have pressure.
I said, you forgot that going to a gen on the other side of the map in 5 seconds is literally Billy's thing. and he can do it more often than freddy
"no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here."
You miss the point. Of course it was your skill, but you needed to be much more skilled to run from a good Clown than a good Legion, for example, who has no chase power. Just as you'd have to be a lot more skill to run from a good Freddy.
fair enough.
The difference between Clown and Freddy (for now at least) is that Clown's only got the chase. It would be nice if he had SOME other things sure, but Freddy has almost equal potential in a chase AND THEN SOME (actually and then a lot).
clown needs a buff. the poor guy...
"do you actually have any example that isn't bt? it's just bt isn't it? did you try waking up before going for a save?"
Considering BT is a major meta perk for survivors, that's all I really need to say honestly.
then say bt. no need for the "any perk requiring terror radious" thing.
He gets a FREE counter to it where other killers have some kind of drawback. Wraith and Pig need to stay undetectable while the save is made.
and that is hard because...?
on pigs case, she literally dashes out of it.
I can see the point on wraith, but still, basekit and he has full control of it
GF can be revealed.
GF can hide, and stalking while someone goes for the save is kinda of a thing GF tends to do anyway...
Other undetectable perks have limits.
if the perk is active, it's active. Limits be damned.
but I didn't bring up perks. so why did you.
Freddy just needs to hit you OR you just need to be asleep for him to counter BT.
you wake up before going for the save like I said, and he HAS to hit you. this gives you time to get the save.
if the killer wants to camp, he will camp. and if he wants to counter BT, he will. there's better ways than the dream world.
I've literally just camped while someone tried to save, waited for them to fall asleep,
so you were camping and the survivor was bad, got it.
hit them so they save, then down the guy they just saved because I know he doesn't have BT.
you could also down the saver but decided to tunnel the guy... congrats?
I don't know what you think this proves...
In other words, I can both prevent the save and prevent BT from activating where other killers can only do one at a time.
you didn't prevent the save, you had to down the guy. did you forget? preventing the save means the guy stays on the hook. which he didn't.
Him being able to counter this specific perk this way is probably the major reason he does as well as he does.
I say it's probably his teleport giving him great mobility... but these are both just ours opinions.
"you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here."
You still miss the point. Yes 32m is a good distance to react, the point is he gets something for free other killers don't get. Any other killer, including the MF'er that turns invisible, can be spotted coming from more than 32m away. Not Freddy. You can only react once you are within 32m, or you stay asleep and eat whatever penalties that comes with.
I didn't miss the point, I just don't think it's a big deal.
poor wraith...needs true invisibility from a certain distance.
"and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal. They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them."
While I won't disagree his other add-ons suck, saying his chains/rope are bad is flat out wrong.
I didn't say bad, I said not good. they are like... middle of the road.
They are some of the most effective add-ons in the game.
I disagree. There are waaaay too many addons that are better than freddys.
Yes they were nerfed but still no other killer has built in passive slowdown on gens. NONE.
1- What would you call pigs RBT? they quite literally stop gens.
2- that's not built in, it's an addon.
Huntress has to hit you with a hatchet and it only lasts 2 minutes that's the closest comparison, but that is insanely weak compared to an up to 8% debuff passive affecting everyone with chains.
I never said others were good. just that they have it.
To sit here and say "their effects are minimal" is like saying "iri head reduces hatchet count to 1 so the effects are minimal".
8% reduction means instead of 80 seconds, a gen takes 86.4 seconds. Yes, I call that minimal.
iri head can cut a chase in half, which could vary from maybe 10 to 120 seconds. this is not minimal.
this example is really really bad. in so many ways. I have no idea why you even bothered with it.
"he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?"
Old Freddy did yes.
and when you say
But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
What are you refering to if not the sentence imediatly before it? when you said old freddy got 50% reduction but had to work for it?
New freddy, is not getting "this stuff" for free. he is getting way less.
"Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?"
Like I said before 1) she has to actively do something to counter BT and has a drawback to that counter (she is slower),
yes, she has to press whatever button it is...right mouse click?
the drawback is nothing, you want to counter bt so you move slower. and the person can't move until the getting out of the hook animation is done. you can literally dash and get the guy in half a second...
and 2) pig traps are not a slowdown mechanic they are an alternative objective.
wanna run that by literally any pig main?
She still has nothing to actually slow down survivors that want to do gens.
besides the fact they will die... right?
I could finish 2 gens with a trap on then do 1 box and get it off.
or you could die.
That's not the same thing as applying a universal 12% debuff from my power alone to gen speed.
people trying to remove the trap can't do gens. it's a 100% speed reduction from her power
"he has a teleport and snares."
And passive slowdown, and pallets, and tracking (via screams/pallet drops), and passive BT counter, and semi-stealth. You really don't play Freddy much do you?
addon, addon, fair but under control of the survivors, completely under the control of the survivors, far aways stealth is #########.
you really don't think about things you say, do you?
Also the major difference between him have multiple powers and a killer like Demo or Pig is that Demo and Pigs tools are not nearly as good as Freddy's.
debatable
His teleport is superior,
can he teleport anywhere he wants like demo can?
his anti-BT is superior,
can he choose o activate it at will like pig can? or do the circunstances need to be in his favor?
his chase potential is superior,
debatable
everything he does is better than either of them.
false.
"different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others."
Do those people have 2 different data dumps demonstrating a visible trend? No?
neither do you.
"You have yet to demonstrate the problem"
This literally just made me LOL.
just shows how you don't understand what you're talking about.
Honestly not getting into the rest as they were just my suggestions for what to do about him. I'm not really caring to push that, except for the smaller snares, removal of Oblivious from Dream World and it being placed onto an add-on, and the reworking of his chains/rope add-ons. Also I would really like the change to Paint Thinner I suggested, and I would like his other add-ons be made more viable too. I'm not asking to make him [BAD WORD] tier again.
not gonna push that...except for the parts that you are...
good job mate...
I made a very clear and valid statement about Freddy being too strong
you said your opinion, yes.
which I then supported with the chart (and subsequently the charts from last time).
so you admit the chart is part of the reason you got to your conclusion. good on you.
I applaud your commitment to quoting my entire post and making as difficult to respond to you as possible,
you asked for it. Now deal with it.
but your counter points just don't hold up to scrutiny.
You didn't refute even a fifth of them. and didn't even try to refute half of them.
you literally gave up without actually giving up. speech 100 again mate
You can sit there and tell me how you beat Freddy all the time or some [BAD WORD], but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong.
this is an easy one... You can sit there and tell me how you beat all the survivors as Freddy all the time or some [BAD WORD], but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong
get actual arguments mate.
"this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it."
He literally said the same things I did. SMH His only addition really was the 1:1 / 1:2 ratio thing.
He might have similar points, but he didn't say the same thing.
also, I already gave the answer to this one on the post itself "this is SO much better articulated than OP."
HOW you say things, matter.
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@Nazeef13 said:
Freddy is overpowered in the current state of the game. When the devs say don't draw conclusions, it is because there is more than just "freddy power op" that makes freddy op. In the current state of the game, yes freddy is very overpowered.
Gamesense theory:
In this case, there is an interaction of map design as a moderator of the relationship between freddy's power and kill rate. Freddy already has a strong teleport power in this game. Nothing game breaking, but any changes that slow the game down, would be a 1 to 1 buff for normal killers, but a 1 to 2 buff for freddy due to his teleport to objective and synergy with slow down. In the current state of the game, slow down perks are meta, and that means freddy become 2 fold as strong with his synergy.
Then come the second aspect of his powers, the snares. These are intended to help cut down chase times. However they work by forcing pallets to get thrown down early (kill rate is now resource dependent), canceling fast vaults, so now preventing repeat use of pallet-less loops (survivor map-knowledge), and slowing survivors down to prevent them from getting to the next loop (distance dependent).
So map design changes that would normally buff killers 1 to 1, now buff freddy 1 to 4. 4 times as much.
In the current state of the game with the direction devs have been going with map design, we see:
-pallet loops being less safe (4x buff for freddy),
- # of pallets being reduced (4x buff for freddy),
-smaller maps with fewer tiles, but tiles being spaced farther apart to prevent chaining loops (4x buff for freddy),
-main building loops being nerfed (4x buff for freddy).
His power is over loaded, with minimal cost:
Pretty much his teleport/mobility/slowdown is a better version of demogorgon's with a quarter of the cost/risk (while he has a cool down, freddy doesn't have the finite resource, time to put down a tp, & survivor counterplay to cancel a tp that demogrogon has to account for).
His chase/snare powers are a way way way better version of clown (no slowdown, no reload, no aiming, stays down as a trap for planning instead of temporary, no los needed.) And comparatively, clown has no mobility slow down. Maybe the devs thought they could counter balance it with snares not being used while awake but the timer is so short that you'll most likely be asleep by the time you are in chase, the cost is pretty much entirely mitigated.
On top of this already overloaded, low cost high reward base kit, he also gets the bonuses that come along with the sleep mechanic that decrease survivability (no tr, no directionality, in-and-out phasing, no bt, more slowdown).
this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it.
@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702431#Comment_1702431
This place is kind of the opposite of an echo chamber. Sometimes I see opinions so far-out and ridiculous I wonder if the OP has even played the game, or is just making conclusions based off their favorite stream or something.
I can see it. 90% of threads here are people disagreeing with OP... XD
-
@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704178#Comment_1704178
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason, especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy. THAT IS THE RED FLAG. My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts. You claim I am doing that when I am not. That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart. Not once do either of you actually address my points or try to refute the evidence other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
k mate.
want me to address all your points just so I can address this one thing? will that somehow mean that what I say will have a different meaning? No. it won't.
but apparently I'm not allowed to focus on one part of what you said...nooooooo... I need to talk about all the things to disagree on one point right?
so...sure...let's waste a bunch of my time to address this.
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position.
I must preface this with...
I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
I don't see how this is relevant in any way shape or form. whatever level of skill you had with old freddy is not important when talking about new freddy.
I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
fun anecdote. How can you measure how oppressive you are? do you think kills=opressiveness or gens left=opressiveness? how did you measure how opressive you are?
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on.
No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide.
No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure.
is billy not a thing anymore?
also... are you saying a hag with traps set up doesn't have pressure? have you watched high skilled hags play?
Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
same for billy.
high mobility killers can use bbq, discordance, surveillance, tinkerer, ruin and pop better than slower killers... who knew?
freddy is not even in the top 5 of thana users though... so bad example there.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast.
no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here.
well, if you can't loop a freddy, it's not because he's strong, it's because you're bad. (see? this argument is dumb)
Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
you mean you can't loop a killer with a strong anti loop power for too long?
how insightful
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius.
do you actually have any example that isn't bt?
it's just bt isn't it?
did you try waking up before going for a save?
Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
this is indeed wrong and should be fixed.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR.
that is on brand for freddy. hell... if you go with his actual powers, you shouldn't see at all while awake.
This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here.
that and you spend what? 80% of the match asleep? freddy doesn't get to be invisible all that much.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds.
You have already been told this is wrong, so I won't bother repeating that
This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period.
and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal.
They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them.
Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
Replace hag with demogorgon. freddy is limited on his teleports while hag isn't.
Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit
he has a teleport and snares.
anything else you talked about isn't base kit
wanna see a quick list of killers that have a similar amount of things base kit?
pig has stealth, slow down and a dash attack.
billy has the highest mobility in the game and an instant down.
ghostface has stealth and an instant down.
demo has a little stealth, a teleport, full map detection and a dash attack.
so no... I don't think freddy has "WAY WAY too much in his base kit"
and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers.
that's your opinion. I think he has that kill rate because he's easy to do well with.
You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive.
different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others.
why do you think your experience means more than anyone elses? Which metric did you use to determine that?
Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat.
a good killer with a strong build is hard to beat? wow...
next you'll tell me that a good 4 man SWF survivor team is hard to beat...
Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF,
I play solo and have beaten several good freddys.
but I guess they aren't really "good freddys" right?
the good freddys are obviously only the ones that have beaten me... definetively... right? /s
which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
indeed
So what is the solution? How do we fix this?
You have yet to demonstrate the problem
I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion.
we all know you are doing both
Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
to me this is perfectly fair
Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
I don't see how this would change anything.
Oblivious removed from Dream World.
what does the dream world do now?
Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
again, perfectly fair.
Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
I would add a limit to how much the penalty goes. but removing this would make the clocks entirely useless.
Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
so make it z block? it's still crap...
Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
do you wanna remove the slowdown effects or add more of them? seems contradictory.
also... I think removing the clock aura works against freddy. let them waste a minute running across the map to wake up.
Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
ok
Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
this seems very meh... how often do survivors even wake up?
also... what about the pallets?
Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
so...what should be base kit in an addon? totally not silly...
Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
even less incentive to go to the clock?
totally what freddy wants.... /s
Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
sure...
Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
why? pallets are easy to deal with already, why reduce them?
Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
damn...what a nerf.
but fair... it's totally not in the survivors control if they get revealed or not right? and freddy is ALWAYS looking at them /s
Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
totally...yeah... I absolutely would use this. totally not useless. /s
you somehow made the meme addon less useable...damn...
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
and again, this is fine
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
again, this would literally change nothing.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons.
and that, is a terrible goal. making a killer more addon reliant is never good.
Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him.
Didn't you spend quite a bunch of time saying his stealth is too good?
You should really update your stuff instead of just copy-pasting it.
This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
you literally made it worse mate.
you nerfed the range. and gave it nothing in return.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
and yet it's not what you did with your changes. all you did was limit freddy.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it
I agree he doesn't need more than one.
but you also made paint thinner #########...
what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor.
so enjoyable to see an aura every 10 min in game...great stuff.
people don't wake up genious... it won't activate more than maybe 10 times total in a match. and more than half of them will be when you won't be able to use the information, wether because you are already chasing someone or because it's literally the person you are chasing.
and the ones where you aren't chasing someone? it's the guy that just came out of the hook. so you made a tunneling perk... survivors love those...
I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
that's sad... I can give you like 5 different thing right now...
1- reduces the sleeping clock time by a set amount
2- decreases teleport charge time
3- reduces lullaby range
4- shows the aura of asleep survivors in a small range
5- gives freddy the ability to "unteleport" meaning, after a very small amount of time after he teleports, he can press the power button again and return to where he was before the teleport
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against.
"still really good"... HA!
when was the last time you saw someone saying survivors focusing more on doing gens instead of going to clocks to wake up is good for freddy? or doing gens instead of waking each other up?
Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
and why is that? bt counter? other killers also have bt counters in their base kit mate.
you need to give better reasoning
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better.
it's funny that you think you made it better... there' literally no reason to use it over literally anything else.
This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
technically, yes they did.
also, the terrible addon no one would ever use is compensation for the nerf? damn... you are cruel.
But even if the addon wasn't terrible, you literally didn't solve the thing you consider to be the problem with them.
so a terrible reward that does nothing is compensation for a dumb nerf that changed nothing... quite fitting
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Nah...
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not.
I know that. You have already decided he is and won't listen to anyone telling you otherwise no matter what they bring to the discussion.
totally not a terrible person to have a discussion with... /s
He very much is
You have yet to demonstrate this
and the chart above confirms it.
it does not.
We need to discuss ways to fix this.
No we don't. Because you have yet to demonstrate that there is something that needs fixing.
besides infectious fright working on sleeping survivors, that is indeed bs and should not be the case.
well then... there it is. I replied to your entire first post without mentioning the chart (besides when you mentioned it first) wasn't this a great use of my time?
can we focus on the part I wanna talk about now?
Or is there any other bs reason we can't?
@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704178#Comment_1704178
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason, especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy. THAT IS THE RED FLAG. My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts. You claim I am doing that when I am not. That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart. Not once do either of you actually address my points or try to refute the evidence other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason,
first, yes it is. the data came from them.
second, I gave you other reasons. you are just too stubborn.
especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy.
you actually haven't done that. You said he is too strong and said the stats confirm it.
you didn't demonstrate a pattern between them and didn't even attempt to. You are just holding the stats up as shield to protect your opinion from people calling you out on it.
You already decided freddy is op and took things that don't demonstrate that, as proof that he is.
and is now acting like a child when people correctly tell you that this is not that the graphs shows.
because the strenght of a character, is not part of the graph.
the graph only shows 2 things. how often a character is picked and how many kills he gets on average.
ANYTHING ELSE you get from them, are your INTERPRETATION of things, NOT what things actually are.
LEARN. TO. READ. GRAPHS.
THAT IS THE RED FLAG.
the pattern you didn't demonstrate?
guess that means there isn't a red flag, since you failed to provide the pattern.
My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts.
Just because the chart isn't your only reason, it doesn't mean you didn't present it as an argument.
I said you drew your conclusion from it. at least partially. and you did.
"and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
You claim I am doing that when I am not.
again, "and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart.
1st- I never said you drew your conclusions solely from the chart. I said it was partially from it
2nd- the definition of a strawman is
is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.
which is ironically, what you are doing right now...
You claim I am doing that...
You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart...
these are all examples of you strawmanning me.
This entire time my point has been that
- the graphs cannot be used to show that freddy is op, because that is not a data point in the graphs.
- Using them to reach the conclusion of freddy being op is wrong.
- You shouldn't have used them as part of your arguments.
and yet you failed to address that time and time again.
up until this comment I hadn't even expressed my opinion on if freddy is op or not, because it was completely irrelevant.
If you use the wrong strategy, but reaches the correct answer, it still means you used the wrong strategy.
and when I criticize your strategy, the answer is irrelevant.
Not once do either of you actually address my points
Because that's not what I was trying to do.
or try to refute the evidence
Your only evidence is anecdotes and the graphs.
How can you say I didn't try yo refute the evidence when the graphs are part of it?
other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
and again, strawman.
How many times do I need to tell you that the graphs don't show that freddy is op just because you want them to?
if you wanna say "Freddy is the most lethal killer in both graphs, therefore he is op" then you MUST accept the argument "Nurse is the least lethal killer in both graphs, therefore she is the worst".
We both know the second argument is BS. Why do you think yours is any better? (spoiler alert, it's just as BS as the nurse one but you refuse to see it)
Now, mister "you need to address everything"... I'm looking forward to your reply to absolutely EVERYTHING I said in this post.
If you don't address everything, then anything you say can be dismissed by me. (that's how it works right?)
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1703543#Comment_1703543
The pattern comes from the PREVIOUS data dump where Freddy also had the highest kill rate by a wide margin, both in all ranks AND red ranks (there were 2 charts). This coupled with my experience playing as and against him I can very easily point out the problems, as my experience is pretty consistent with the data dumps.
The straight up fact is that Freddy has too much in his basekit. @TAG and @Weck can say "don't draw conclusions" all they want, they fail to understand, somehow, that such a statement does NOT mean the data is useless. They are strawmaning nothing else, and unless they have a counter point to my actual arguments they are just being spiteful.
I told you a different way of looking at the stats, where you cannot read "freddy" is op and doing so would be silly.
but yeah...just keep living in this universe where people aren't giving you perfectly reasonable reasons as to why the stats are unreliable at best. totally not disingenuous of you
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704008#Comment_1704008
The evidence not being brilliant doesn't mean that the opposite of what he's saying is true. Plus half the time the devs just say "don't draw conclusions from stats" because they don't want to be told how to make decision more than they already are, and adding that disclaimer gives them an instant free out on any conversation.
the evidence not being good, means what he's saying is not supported by good evidence, therefore shouldn't be viewed as such.
is that such a hard concept to grasp?
they say to not draw conclusions from the stats, because the stats do not take into consideration several variables that would need to be taken into account before they can be properly used to draw conclusions. again, is that such a hard concept to grasp?
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702641#Comment_1702641
Except I had data in form of experiences. Again you take a comment out of context. Holmes is saying don't just go on nothing. If you have SOMETHING, whatever that something is, you can consider that data. My personal experiences playing as and against the killer can be seen as data. While I didn't exactly record the details of every single game, the fact is I am most consistent with Freddy and most oppressive with Freddy compared to every single other killer suggests something. That something is supported by not 1, but 2 data reveals by the developers, the first of which included more detail stats. When looked at as a whole, I was able to identify exactly what makes him so good and articulate that in the OP, then provide clear and simple solutions.
I mean, people that hate Spirit can't articulate their argument as well as I did in the OP. They say very vague things about it, don't have a clue what the solution could be (maybe because they have a hard time identifying the actual problem), and on top of that the data doesn't support it either. So it's faulty all around.
My OP is not that at all. I have a solid well formulated points about Freddy, and while I only posted the recent data dump I could go back and get the previous ones (and I probably should... and may).
You are intentionally strawmaning my argument so you don't have to admit Freddy is too strong and needs a change. I can and will use these charts to support my claims because that's how this ######### works.
Again "do not draw conclusions" =/= "data is meaningless".
so you have anecdotal evidence, and stats that shouldn't be used to determine balance. ain't that such an open and shut case?
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702567#Comment_1702567
Oh well then sure I guess.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702568#Comment_1702568
When the data is that consistent, and when we have that extra layer, YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE that conclusions can be drawn from it. And as I've said several times now, my conclusion is based on PLAYING THE KILLER AT RANK 1. If I can't use the only data available to me to confirm my conclusion then what else would you like me to do? I could play 100 games as Freddy but then you could sit there and pick that apart too. You have to accept some data at some point, or else you are just refusing to actually discuss the issue instead of refuting it.
Fact is you can use the data to make predictions. The devs cannot sit there and say "don't make conclusions from this data" if the data is consistent as it is. THAT suggests something is actually going on. If they want to give us more data I'd be happy to alter my statements but I'm working with what they are giving us. You can sit there all day and say it means nothing which is honestly complete and utter bullshit. You know that something is up here, why you refuse to admit it is beyond me.
all I see from that data is that people play freedy and win more often than with other killers.
it doesn't say why, it doesn't say how.
I could easily use the same chart to say freddy has a very low skill floor and therefore more people are able to play him well, leading to more kills on average.
and I could use nurse to demonstrate the opposite. her kills are the lowest because she has the highest skill floor in the game and therefore less people are able to play her well, leading to less kills on average.
just because you say "this proves what I said" it doesn't mean it actually proves what you said. You are just looking for a way for it to fit the conclusion you already have
not exactly the quote I was looking for, but it gets the idea across.
You already think freddy is op, so you are looking at things only in a way that shows he's op. instead of looking at what things actually are and adapting your conclusion accordingly.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702513#Comment_1702513
Yes let's pat each other on the back and laugh instead of presenting actual arguments. SMH
I mean... did you read your argument?
You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.
But if I have other evidence, including past stats...
they said to not draw conclusions using their stats, and your first evidence is other stats that they also told you not to use to draw conclusions?
face it mate, you created the discourse in this thread when you decided to use the charts the devs told you not to use(weakening your argument since it's at least partially based on faulty premises)
and putting a literal bait in the title. You use bait, you get fish... why are you acting surprised about that?
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@thesuicidefox said:
Figures. This place is such an echo chamber. Why do I even bother.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702375#Comment_1702375
Except I'm not purely looking at the chart and drawing that conclusions.
I ALREADY MADE THE CONCLUSIONS FROM EXPERIENCE. The chart merely confirms it.
But whatever you guys can put your thumb up each other's posts instead of engaging in a reasonable conversation.
"People aren't agreeing with me. ECHO CHAMBER!!!!"
seriously dude?
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depends on what I'm trying to do.
just playing normally and no one is around? I leave. I rather have a longer game.
trying to do some challenge that requires killing in the basement or something else among those lines? I stay.
I'm not just gonna let someone walk besides to save the others... but I'm usually not rushing to win a match.
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I will never understand why people don't play the damn tutorials.
then they walk around the game going "I don't know what to do... what is this?!?"
just learn the damn game before you start to play it.
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@WestX said:
I don't think Lucifer would make sense, I mean hell Pyramid Head is kind of a stretch in the lore, but there's no way that Lucifer(Who would probably be more powerful than the entity) would actually serve it.
But on the other hand, I think it would be pretty cool to have Sam and Dean as survivors, and well we already have Ash as a survivor so it wouldn't be breaking the mold 2 much to add more people that would probably be killing the killers and not running from them.
supernaturals Lucifer is not that powerful. by a loooooooooong shot. He's strong, sure... but nowhere near the entity level of power.
he doesn't even rule over death, one of his 4 horseman.
and death doesn't do ######### against the entity.
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there was a tournament? didn't even know... gotta check that later...
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I don't really know if I actually played against pc players or not... AFAIK they could all have been xbox players... but I haven't noticed any real changes between now and before crossplay 🤷
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Very well...
*draws pentagram and other stuff on the floor.
FROM THE DEPTHS, PLEASE ANSWER MY CALL OH FORBIDDEN ONE.
FOR YOUR POWER IS MIGHTY AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE PRECIOUS.
PLEASE HELP THIS MERE MORTAL ON HIS QUEST AS A PLAGUE MAIN.
I SUMMON FORTH THEE...
PLEASE ANSWER MY CALL AND HELP HIM ACHIEVE GODHOOD!!!!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
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@MotherOfRaccoons said:
Because lore is boredom.
you're weird
but yeah, richter's lore is pretty cool. After defeating Dracula and being mind controlled by shaft, the vampire killer was cursed and couldn't be wielded by another belmont and other people couldn't use it to it's full power. until portrait of ruin that happened 150 years after richter was dead. but inside the whip there was a memory of richter, and the newest belmont at the time had to defeat this memory in order to release the vampire killer from the curse.
the whip being cursed was terrible, since during those 150 years dracula ressurected every few years instead of every couple hundred years like it used to be. because the vampire killer was specially good at stopping him.
Richter is one of the most powerful belmonts to ever exist, but he is also responsible for one of their greatest failures in losing the vampire killer. Tragic hero at his finest.
no, I won't apologize for speaking about castlevania lore instead of dbd lore... XD
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@lunaticlifter said:
@Weck no something wrong is with your console if your games run more than 20 fps
how do you even count your fps?
and if your console runs at 5fps like you said in the title... yes, something is wrong with it.
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wth is wrong with your console?
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@Science_Guy said:
The Hatch offerings feel counterproductive if you're a Survivor. The Hatch is only useful if you can find it first, but when both killer and survivor know were it probably is, the Killer is going to reach it faster most of the time. They'd need to be Secret to really be good.
you are forgetting keys exist
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O matchmaking as vezes te quebra as pernas mesmo...
mas nao desiste nao, uma hora vc fica bom no jogo e ai vc vence eles.
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@NekoGamerX said:
no it didn't come out right at all.
yeah... unless?
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@Dabihwow said:
PErsonally I would prefer the model T800 terminator( Arnold Schwarzenegger terminator) as a survivor but eh this could do
how would you justify any of the killers killing the t800?
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how do you know they are on pc?
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I haven't had any issues so far...
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@yukairi said:
It is not to be good or not it is that cnets totally different than on console, the pc are really too advantageous than the consoles, all the console players will tell you that
you don't speak for me
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I wouldn't reset the survivors stalk potential, but I would add a recharge mechanic to it.
so everyone would always have at least a little bit of juice
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1525007#Comment_1525007
Its meant to be anti tunnel:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
First question in the QA part says its anti tunnel I have highlighted the respective part.
Question: What led to the decision to put the timer on Decisive Strike?
Horvath: We decided to put a timer on Decisive Strike as one of the solutions to Decisive Strike being used too often, we tried 2 minutes internally and found that players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed
Only peanits has ever called it an anti momentum perk which isn't correct as the people who designed the perk flatout call it an anti tunnel perk.
If your confused so is 90% of the forum users.
No dev says it's just an antitunnel perk.
Because if they do, they know they are objectively wrong.
Which is why when a dev comments on a "make ds properly antitunnel" thread, they always say something like "it's not supposed to strictly be an anti tunnel perk"