NOED is really bad game design
I know it. You know it. The devs know it. How about we all just admit it?
Playing in the green ranks and it's literally carrying every single killer there. Guess this is the easy way to balance the game. Killers are struggling? oh well just give them a perk to make up for it.
Now before people cry "ClEaNsE tHe ToTUmZ", how about the devs actually make that viable for single player by giving some notification of when dull totems are destroyed? or after doing 4 am I meant to run around the map searching every nook and cranny just to be sure?
God I hate this game sometimes. NOED and DS, 2 perks that change the entire outcome of the match. Great game design right there.
Comments
I stated we can get rid of NOED when we get rid of SWF. How anyone feels is irrelevant to the statement in its context.
Almost everybody approaches NOED from the wrong angle. People might give this post a reply like 'insert killer main btw' meme but I wholeheartedly write this as a killer, not as a survivor.
One way or another survivors don't cleanse or can't cleanse dull totems. We can discuss the reasons for that but it doesn't change the fact that in more than half of the games, NOED gets activated and make a huge impact on the match.
Generally killers like trapper, pig, wraith, doc, leatherface, freddy resort to using NOED, and we know that NOED has the potential to turn 0k to 4k.
It just kills the chance for these killers to be buffed. Whether you admit it or not, at the end of the day, Devs will look at the stats they have, not what some people write on the forums.
For example, I see posts asking for leatherface buffs and I agree, he is not a good killer. Without using addons, his power is horrendous. Stating that, he will never get a buff because of the way people play him. Camp the first guy and get the second guy with NOED. Done. It is over. Leatherface has 2 kills which is considered to be balanced. Even though this killer is really bad, you can ask Devs whether they will buff him or not. They won't.
It seems like NOED helps killers and harms survivors but in reality, NOED harms killers more than it harms survivors.
As a survivor, I don't have any problem with it. I am a notorious detective's hunch user and I prevent NOED in almost every single match.
It is 100% true but one way or another, killers do get 2 kills.
Adjusting gen time, redesigning maps, getting rid of bad setups, secondary objectives or.....
NOED
Well the easy choice is obvious. It is not like that the devs didn't try to solve other killer related problems with perks.
Gen rush? Pop goes the weasel
Bad setups? Bamboozle
Pallet looping? Spirit fury
We have NOED and it, well, 'solves' a bad game design. People gen rush you? Punish them by equipping NOED, easy counter.
I have said it before, as a killer I don't want 4k 3 min matches, I accept 2k if the match lasts something like 10 min.
Noed just like Ruin is rng it carries bad killers it allows them to get 4 kills sometimes IF and i m going to say it again IF by damn luck gates happened to spawn close to each other and ruin wasnt popped up in first seconds of a game.
@JanTheMan Exactly. Killers cry abour SWF but hoe often do SWF not manage to co-ordinate a full 5 totem cleansing? Noed is incredibly weak to 3/4 man swf so his argument makes no sense.
@Delfador Great post. That's exactly what I've been saying. The stats indicate that right now - despite how much killer maind on here complain - the game is actually in the killers favour. Stats don't lie. As you say camp and noed is a strategy that can easily grant 2 kills which gives the appearance of balance even though it isn't really there.
Also what happens when a 4 man swf takes out Noed? I guess its why we get so many salty posts about swf.
Right now it feels like NOED plays heavily into the balance of the game, especially for the lowrer tier killers and less experienced players.
Saying something has a counter doesn't mean that the issue at hand isn't bad game design.
And anyway, people should be arguing for harder-to-find totem spots and not ones where it's just Monkey see, monkey cleanse.
If noed is bad design, what about DSTRIKE ?
Don't waste your breath brother, I already made a rant on this. Literally everyone just accepts its existence at this point (sadly.)
Personally, I think NOED is a band-aid fix to flawed game design whereas Decisive Strike is actually bad game design. NOED should be made unnecessary by fixing other elements of the game, then it can be altered/removed. On the other hand, DS could be removed tomorrow and I think the game would be better for it.
However, a thread pointing out the problems with one perk shouldn't always have to devolve into a contest between which perk is worst. Multiple perks on both sides can need fixing.
Honestly, i'd take 4 Decisive strikes over 4 Dead Hards. At least with DS I can use enduring and just get them down again most of the time, with Dead hard if they know how to use it they'll mostly get another free loop or get away to another loop (If they can use it correctly)
NOED is: devs being lazy and dont want to put time into making a good endgame scenario for both sides.
DS is: pure bad game design.
The op just said: noed is bad game design while he has no idea what bad design is.
Also most people I know who go against NOED are killer mains themselves lmao (Including me.)
I hope that's satire.
I've literally complained about DS on these forums more than anything else in the entire game.
My 3 most hated things in Dead By Daylight...
1) Decisive Strike
2) NOED
3) Claudette Morel
I think it's a good game but I do think DS and NOED hold it back. Both really feel like they rob the winning team of a hard earned victory. Both perks are far too powerful.
I actually liked facing NOED as Survivor and never liked running it as Killer. (Though the reason for that isn't exclusive to NOED.)
Too bad you feel like it's unfair, but one aspect i liked about DbD is that the match gets more dangerous as time goes on. (C'mon Fire Up, do something pls.)
To be fair, there are a lot of elements in DbD that are a result of bad game design. And NOED may be an attempt at helping with the bad game design, but that doesn't mean it's not a poorly designed perk. Yes, it needs to be strong since it's an end-game perk, but due to the problems in game design that give SWF such a huge advantage over solo survivors, NOED is much more likely to be a problem for solo survivors. And that's kind of backwards, given that NOED is meant to be a punishment for rushing gens, which is more of an SWF thing than a solo survivor thing. Just like how Ruin is meant to slow down gen rushing, but the good survivors who can gen rush can also power through Ruin.
DbD needs to be fixed so that perks can be used for fun or to help with player weaknesses rather than needing to be used to help with weaknesses in the game itself.
I'm not even going to blame them, it's basically a 3 man team if I'm off cleansing totems. Then you get salt post game or you get then trying to sell you out to the killer because they assume you've been doing nothing.
It feels a little much for one perk. No other perk requires this much effort to counter.
What if it can only deal a certain amount of Exposed hits?
Hex: No One Escapes Death Level 1
The next Healthy Survivor you hit will go down instantly.
Once a Healthy Survivor goes down instantly from this Perk, the Hex Totem turns into a Dull Totem and the Perk disables.
Hex: No One Escapes Death Level 2
The next 2 Healthy Survivors you hit will go down instantly.
Once 2 Healthy Survivor goes down instantly from this Perk, the Hex Totem turns into a Dull Totem and the Perk disables.
Hex: No One Escapes Death Level 3
The next 2 Healthy Survivors you hit will go down instantly and the Dull Totem it will spawn on is uncleansable.
Once 2 Healthy Survivor goes down instantly from this Perk, the Hex Totem turns into a Dull Totem and the Perk disables.
Its bad, just like decisive. Both still in the game. Both not going to get removed unfortunately.
Killers complain that 3-4 man SWF is too hard yet these are the people who can most easily co-ordinate a full 5 totem cleanse. There needs to be a way to make it fairer for solo and swf.
Okay, remove the 4%.
There, tried something new in my previous suggestion.
Everyone who played a single competitive pvp game before which was pretty good balanced will see the flaws of designing noed
Huh? Go down?
Be actually good and that won't even happen.
Remove self care, then I accept if you remove NOED
Given how much NOED alone can swing the results of a game yes it is bad game design. It's like the blue shell from Mario Kart on steroids.
Again with the defensive positions. DS is absolutely awful too. Nobody is defending that.
You can't label anything you dislike facing as bad game design.
That logic got bloodlust 2 and 3 removed even though if you couldn't lose the killer you were still capable of slowing them down.
DS? Just down him again.
Genrush? Just pressure gens.
Facecamp? Just don't get caught.
Insta heal? Just down him again.
Seriously, with that sentence I'm pretty sure you don't care about balancing and you never played a balanced pvp game in you life before (or maybe you did but u didn't like it cuz there aren't bad designed crutch things to use to compensate lack of skill)
The Killer is playing with 3 perks thoughout the whole match until all gens are powered and you fail to cleanse 5 totems in the meantime? Mhm.
That's pretty rude and false.
NOED is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be, and yes you should cleanse the totems, It takes 14 seconds to cleanse a totem.
Totems are supposed to be a secondary objective, Most people gloss over them if they see a dull totem and then complain if they see NOED pop up at the end, It's completely counterable. Dull totems become pointless if NOED Doesn't exist.
The whole point of NOED Being so strong is it's an easy counter. DS on the other hand is even more broken but has no counter in the game.
this.
how much more you need vs one single perk ? how much counter play adrenaline got?
like none? and 4 can have it in 1 game, you hook one with it ? still get it after save.
One of OPs issues i would actually like to see in the following way...
While it shouldn't be the solution, it would be an extra tool.
Killer Perks that are (more) powerful against SWF.
Like on Barbecue & Chili: "The Entity detected some Survivors are together. Those who are a member of a Survive With Friends group grant 2 Tokens on their first hooking." (And then the limit of Tokens would be raised from 4 to 8 to allow these extra Tokens to be gained. (You can't get more than 4 Tokens against solos anyway, so raising the limit wouldn't do anything there.))
Of course that's just an example, but it's about the concept.
So apply something like that to H:NOED so that it can receive the proper nerf that OP wants against solos.
the entire endgame is a bad design choice.
its full on survivor sided, the only way how killers can prevent this is by bringing the highly overrated perk Hex: No One Escapes Death.
the perk complpetely relies on the survivors to screw up to even activate and even then it can be taken down. or you could just be stealthy and avoid the killer. or you could just leave through the gate.
there is so much counterplay to it, if anyone above green ranks has any problems with this perk, you might not be ready for these ranks yet.
and i am saying this as a survivor now:
cleanse the totems. its not hard. just leave the gens to your team and do these 5 little bad boys (with ruin its only 4 btw).
also, no. i do not need an indicator of how many totems have been done by other players. i have a brain and i am able to count up to 5. i go to the totem spots, destroy the totem and add it to the count. if the totem is already destroyed, ill add it to the count and move on. thats how easy it is.
also also, yes, the totems need to be better hidden. they are supposed to be a secondary objective and lead you away from the gens, but they barely do, as they usually spawn eigther right next to a gen or so obvious in the open field that you need to spend almost no time to search for them at all.
you know, when noed activates you shouldnt be like "ugh another noob killer using this op perk", but rather like "darn, why did i allow this to activate?".
its not like the killer has any power over weather you cleanse the totems or not. he is waay too busy for that xD