So still no ghoul changes huh?
PTB seems to be lacking any changes to the ghoul even tho your community is out crying for you to nerf him.
I personally wont keep quiet until he is fixed so he isn't miserable to verse.
PTB seems to be lacking any changes to the ghoul even tho your community is out crying for you to nerf him.
I personally wont keep quiet until he is fixed so he isn't miserable to verse.
Read THIS post.
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Do you wanna make ghoul C tier. because that's exactly how you do it. Why would you make an M1 killer 110% That doest make sense.
Just fix the mid-air cancel. make SOMETHING about his kit require some skill and fore-thought. also getting deep wounded through the floor on 2 story maps needs to be fixed…
This is the blight problem you don't give a killer an insane mobility ability and then make him regular speed there has to be a tradeoff and if your arguing against this then why is Chucky 4.4ms? Make him 4.6 then make it make sense.
Furthermore even if ghoul is 4.4 he still has a insane mobility ability to close the distance this wouldn't be an issue for him or blight if they were 4.4
Overdrive billy didnt fall off because of some addon rarity changes.
It fell off because they changed the BASEKIT aspects of his overdrive chainsaw to the point that most people cant just chainsaw and hug walls or curve as much as they could've before.
"Nightlight"
While I do agree with that I think my problems I have pointed out about ghoul also need to be part of the consideration devs need to look into
Blight can use and depends on his ability in chase
Ghoul cannot use his ability in chase except some certain loops and even then it doesnt down, it just shortens the loop
On top of that you are removing the scamper even though it has a counterplay.
Then you are also nerfing his kagune mechanics so he basically cant use it to bodyblock in chase too.
Do you want to make the killer powerless?
Let's ignore the rest of your changes and focus on just 110% and why that would be a massive issue and a gigantic nerf for ghoul. It's like making legion 110%. Make legion 110% and see how trash he immediately becomes.
Blight can be 110% because his ability is usable in chase and can get you hits. Even if he doesnt use the ability, the capability that he could changes how the loops are played. You have to factor in the blight rushing so you cant play against him the normal way you do with other killers. Ghoul doesnt work like that, you just loop him mostly as usual but vault back when he vaults onto you with the "good boy" tech, nullifying his scamper. You have to watch out for bodyblocks in some loops and surprise bamboozle but that's about all he can do in a pallet loop.
You would make the ghoul probably the next skull merchant with your changes
I think the reason why chucky is 4.4 is because of his small stature which maybe lets him hug the loops tighter, idk im not sure. He is innately harder to m1 loop than the other normal killers because you cant see him over stuff too. Anyways it doesnt make sense to compare killesr on why this one is 110% and this one is 115% just to somehow justify nuke level nerfs.
1.Legion doesn't have insane mobility like Ghoul so he doesn't warrant being 4.4 so your argument is invalid for that.
2. Ghoul can interrupt/ cut people off with his power so it can be used in loops I've seen ghoul players do.
3. Your acting like being 110% is putting him in a wheelchair and making him powerless he'll still be able to get people.
4. That's not good enough reason for Chucky to be 4.4 then they should buff him to 4.6
You cant down survivors with power stop acting like it doesnt take skill against good players. Timing is everything and he cant use his power around tight loops. Survivors have the most brain dead perks of the 2 roles as well. Hold w to activate sprint burst, press space because you got downed after the killer hooked you and got you again after basekit BT. Prove thyself takes nothing to activate..... I can keep going
By your logic since he has "insane" mobility, let's also nerf hillbilly to 110% speed. See what happens then. Krasue to 110% speed too, because she has some decent mobility in the head form.
You're honestly missing the point and I feel like you have very minimal if at all experience actually playing ghoul. This shows in your reply too, you've "seen" ghoul players do bodyblock. Which I have already addressed btw. But you seemingly dont care about real ghoul experience or facts so that's why you ignored it.
very simply here's why the ghoul would be garbage at 110% besides the other nerfs you listed: The ghoul has no way to down survivors except by hitting them normally.
So leaping across the map with his power, stopping on a dime behind a survivor., and then downing them doesnt count as using his power because he still uses the basic attack button? I suppose we need to buff spirit then by that logic.
Both sides have easy to use perks. Down a survivor and half the gens explode. Hook a survivor and all the gens block. Kick a gen or load into the map to bypass any game sense in locating survivors. I can keep going...
www.youtube.com/shorts/2-kyUGhVnTs?feature=share
This video shows clear counters to everything you just said about ghoul, ghoul has cooldowns after his power like legion. The way you counter him is very similar.
About ghoul cutting people off in loops, This is not easy to do at all and isn't realistic its extremely hard to do on most loops, so much so ghoul mains literally clip it and make montages of them doing it. I would love to see you doing it consistently in a game.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Mzta0vI86rY?feature=share
This is another video showing hard easy counters to ghoul to his power
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Tg5PzO5mfP4?feature=share
Here's another video showing you what ghoul has to do in most loops, hes literally just a m1 killer.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0vc98x2kWKY?feature=share
Another video proving and showing you ghoul can be shut down.
Iv provided data proving ghoul can be effectively countered. Can you disprove any of this data that iv presented to you?
I'm not missing the point I have vs and played as ghoul extensively my ghoul is at p45 because he's so easy to play i can turn my brain off during my play sessions
Auto aim attack -Chase- Scamper over vault or dropped pallet- downed surv- repeat- 4k That is the Ghoul experience in a nutshell your just biased in keeping him in this busted state cause your scared about skill merchant treatment.
Legion is nowhere near as insane mobility as blight billy or ghoul and if you think so apparently your clearly not experienced enough to tell the difference. Hillbilly actually requires skill and knowledge to use effectively Ghoul does not that's the difference. Nobody plays Krasue she's as dead as Twins while theres way to many ghouls you see while playing.
Ghoul is thee most hated and miserable Killer to go against and no contest has the highest survivor DC rate against and I don't blame them. Devs are not gonna be able to ignore the massive amount of complaints forever Ghoul is going to get more Nerfs in the future and even more in the inevitable later future a rework and your just gonna have to accept that.
I doubt the devs will nerf ghoul any real meaningful way, its funny you try to help people you give them proof ghoul can be counterd you give them plenty of data on it. What do they do? They ignore it and just keep complaining because they feel like anybody they find annoying to play against needs to be nerfed.
I hope the devs keep ignoring them.
2 things.
His hitbox hit you through the wall because he hit you when you werent behind the wall its just the difference in players screen like sith ghostface reveal where when you get sound cue that survivor is looking at you he already started like second ago and you will get revealed no matter what if he is still looking at you and foesnt look away, the ghoul has like 2,5 meters hitbox so if there is just some part of your character that hatchet would hit than ghoul hits you too and those hits where you are almost behind the wall are just hit validation where you ran off behind the wall but he hit you with leap a second ago and your charscter just moved so I dont zhink this will be fixed because dome things like crouch tech cant be fixed without making normal gameplay way worse (in terms of crouch tech).
If you mean all these nerfs and not only pick some as option that its SM treatment just overnerfing wont fix that only one thing that ghoul enjoyers jump on blight who is tw times or 3 times stronger and has way less counterplay.
I surprise the real question is what killers arent hated, like bubba is hated by some because he can hit multiple instsdowns and getting hooked in endgame is gg, huntress,demo and many others are hated by some for bdimg the zoners even the top tier killers can zone way faster, skullmerchant is total dog ……. but still some complain even the fact that she is worst killer in the game and its easy 3 man out if you dont play badly or have total trash teammates so which killer isnt hated, like before many years in games early stages facing billy,bubba,demo was considered peak but now everyone is hated (these killers are very liked by survivors that are experienced).
This! People tend to forget or not care about the fact that the hit through the wall might have actually happened while the survivor was not behind the wall.
I've had this happen multiple times. I see the hit clearly happen way before the survivor is behind a wall or rock or any obstacle, but when i pull closer the survivor is behind something making the hit look janky.
For some reason i've noticed this happen more with console folks. Its the same thing after i down someone and they teleport 2 meters forward, happens a lot with console players.
That's not really a good excuse? If it's hitscan and it shows it hits you through a wall because of massive desync then devs should be fixing it.
It's like when a killer swings at you when your vaulting a window and even though your clearly on the other side already YOU STILL GET HIT people just don't like that and Ghoul is like that x3 it needs to be fixed and fine tuned.
People in general forget how hitboxes in DBD work especialy those who play survivor mostly or only because some killers like slinger,huntress have very great understanding of games hitboxes and even good survivors do like crouch tech (abilities where killer cant look down so if he is higher than survivor he will miss) or some abilities hitbox priorities like crouching near pallets corner against blight dash will make him to break the pallet instead of getting hit and there are other killers that are effected by this or when survivor is vaulting but still in killers hitbox like blights dash or billys saw the pallet will prioritized.
Nemos drag, like people that have no experience have no idea how DBD hitboxes work in general.
You will get hit behind window when you vaulted it and you are still close to it, that theres some desync and high ping which makes everything bad but this is question for devs.
Play ghoul at high mmr and you wont be calling for nerfs. Cooldown after pallet break was the laziest change ever and made him boring now. Learn how to play against a killer before crying to BHVR for nerfs to a killer we paid money for
How do we know when we get to "high mmr" since it is a hidden metric, is it just until we loose a match?
Also the logic of I paid for it therefore it should never be nerfed is silly
I paid for Mikala so bring back old COH by the logic I paid for it.
I paid for Gabriel So bring back v1 made for this.
I also paid for Laurie so give me v1 DS.
Everyone that paid for V1 legion they should give it back to them if they paid for it.
They should refund ash and legion tbh. Original legion and mettle of man were some of the most fun things in the game and they were severely nerfed shortly after
Ah thats why the high mmr ghoulds do not complain at all.
Blight can down with his power, Ghoul can't. You just want Ghoul butchered.
E: Like here's the thing, you suggest 4.4 m/s which is already a flawed idea but then you were like "also let's nerf all these other aspects of his power" to the point where you can't seriously say you think that he'd be worthy of being 4.4 m/s. I get it, he can be annoying, but you're not actually arguing for a reasonable solution. You want him Skull Merchant'd.
what they really want to say
"i dont care, I dont run into a lot of good blights but i run into to many good ghouls so i want him nerfed i dont care if he can be countered hes annoying!"
People think the devs dont listen but its not that, there not about to nerf something because your annoyed with it. They move off data. Show data.
Yesterday, I got hit by a ghoul while standing on top of Dead Dawg Saloon gallows while he dashed underneath it. He was full underneath gallows and the game went, that's a hit. It didn't just look janky, it made no sense whatsoever. There is no amount of hitbox or hitscan or other excuse anyone can make to make that hit OK. The same mechanism is what allows him to get those hits through walls, they both need to go. The whole hitscan free hit needs to go, it will never be OK for a survivor to become injured because the killer looked in their general direction especially not when that same killer has insane mobility.
I mean there is something to say about wanting excessively annoying design/balance to be changed. I completely understand the hate behind getting animation locked around walls (or animation locked in general), or wanting the counterplay to be more intuitive or expanded a bit. But Bongo's suggestions seem to take the sledgehammer approach to the issue, and I think it's worth it to point that out.
Tell that to all the people who refuse to play now because of Ghoul lol
Let me know who they are.
Honestly doubt that someone would stop playing just because of Ghoul. This killer is nowhere near as bad as past, present, and probably future blight, release krasue, or first legion, which is why the devs arent nerfing him.
Why would I let you know who they are? If this thread wasn't enough to show how much people dislike them, then I don't know what to tell you.
People who aren't playing the game aren't going to be telling you specifically "I stopped playing because of Ghoul" they have moved on until nerfs are posted, I know too many people who Ghoul was the final reason they stopped playing followed by the announcement of the QoL being cancelled.
Screaming anime child who grabs you through walls might excite you, but it certainly doesn't others, myself included. LMAO
I want ghoul to be fair but let's be honest every part of his kit is not fair which is why he needs adjustments in most of his kit you just wanna keep busted killers for the sake they are busted so they don't get nerfed.
But I'm reasonable we can either start with making him 4.4 or increasing his cooldowns your choice.
idk if you look at what killers are 4.4 m/s (including Vecna 2) or lower (Nurse) you can see that the primary way of downing survivors is directly tied with using their abiltity to
injuredown and/or they have a power that almost completely ignores traditional survivor defenses/movement capabilities in a very obvious & intuitive way. If you make Ghoul 4.4 m/s then you naturally have to actually buff his power significantly to make it more consistent at securing downing people without having to engage with the standard looping gameplay. Because 4.4 m/s looping just isn't viable, even if the killer has great map mobility and the ability to quickly injure (but not down) with their power. See old Legion…there's a reason we all used the 3 hit down add-on or moonwalked people to death instead of trying to frenzy then chase normally.That means buffing his power vaults, removing the cooldown on pallet break thing, making leap targeting more consistent (because it "lingers" on objects/people seemingly depending on ping or something) so you can make bodyblock plays all the time, giving him his range back, etc. Or make it so leap attacks down outright. And I don't think anyone really wants that? Because that's how you get old Chucky 2.0 on steroids.
Increasing cooldowns just sounds boring for everyone. I guess it technically would raise the skill floor, which is part of the reason why you see more Ghouls than Billy/Blight (or at least I do), but kinda lame. People like pressing buttons in the videogame. Making it so people can press buttons less is a lazy way of doing game design. See Marvel Rivals.
The only way I could see making 4.4 m/s work is if you made him 4.4 m/s when not enraged, and 4.6 m/s while enraged. That would introduce an interesting dynamic where you're highly encouraged to use leap attacks as often as possible (and hit the QTE) to stay enraged and able to chase properly. If you end up in a chase for too long to the point where you run out of enrage, then you might have to leave it. If everyone stays injured, you might want to still use your leap attack anyway so you can get your movement speed back. In this scenario (and IMO they should do it anyway) they'd probably need to address the whole "you landed the leap but didn't get the attack off but you still get enrage thing" but that's neither here nor there.
People mis many thing and this is one of them that killers that arent 115 speed are reliable on their powers and thats the key reason why nurse has probably strongest power because she is 2% slover than running survvior so she cant be played without using her power.
For ghoul nerf to 4.4 m/s would mean some buffs to his power like vault being faster and removing token loss after breaking reduction these ones would deffinitely be there with some more.
Me, I genuinely had to stop playing between ghoul and Springtrap releases because of how unfun ghoul is to verse and how he was basically every second match for months.
It’s gotta be about the cooldown not being much and his ability to swing to you like Tarzan. I know it because I’ve talked about it with others and it’s always the same. Problem is when I say it needs a SLIGHT nerf I doubt the developers ability to know what slight means. If they just nerf him a little at a time they could eventually find the sweet spot. I won’t just say nerf him because that could result in his death.
Freddy can be good of course. On top of being able to teleport he can spawn many dream pallets and at least when survivors are asleep his dream snares are good in chase and he has an add on that puts people back to sleep faster. At the same time I wouldn’t seem him as being lethal to the point of needing any change. I would sooner talk about the real issues such as map layouts and other more concerning problems. Finding the sweet spot on pallet density and addressing hyper gen focus seems more important to me. But the game isn’t so simple and any change can trigger issues that will also need addressing. Certain killers either their various strengths and weaknesses will need to be considered along with perks and other such elements from both sides. I think rocket science might be easier to master ……
Tbh freddy isnt bad but his dream pallets are so much map dependent that the difference between using them on RPD or coldwind are so huge (same as difference between playing ghostface and blight), like on RPD many loops are just run around especialy on that side under library many strong pallets but freddy can set there casounter dream pallet that makes that loops very unsafe to survviors that arent under effect of clock but on many other maps you dont get many places to spawn dream pallets from the start like maps as RPD offers so you just get 1 or 3 bad pallets and rest you must break to get them set plus good survivors arent so bad to run asleep into dream pallet and if they have to to make choice to run you than they will just pick clock to give themself advantage for first 30 seconds.
I was gone for a while, so it's a bit late of a reply.
But in short:
You can easily filter through messages, but if enough of those messages appear, it's something to worry about in general. Even if 40% of users say "X sucks", it should be the full time job of one of the analysts to find out why people think X sucks and do something to reduce why it sucks. It could be 100% fine and working as intended, users are not experiencing joy when seeing that thing. Unconstructive feedback might not help find the issue, but it SHOULD make it a higher priority because its mentioned more often.
It's the job of business analists and in this case also community managers, to convert those messages into a single ticket and adjust priority based on how common the complaint is, how severe the reaction is to the players and what the effect is. Constructive feedback, normally speaking, will be summarized if it actually deconstructs on why, and will be added to the ticket if multiple people have similar feedback. But that requires people reading the feedback at all. Right now, it just feels like every single feedback gets summarized into a very generic sentence, and those sentences are summarized into a single ticket, while using chatGPT or something to summarize it. Which means that common complaints will have bigger impact than detailed complaints, where back in the day, it was the other way around.
Pain Res these days is a perfect example of it. It's TOO effective on mobility killers. Especially since they improved scourge hook spawns (prior to that, you pretty much required Agitation if you wanted consistent value, nowadays, no matter where you down someone, unless its Midwich, you can basically guarantee value). It has issues. It is known that it has issues specifically on mobility killers and it's only working on normal speed killers if they tunnel (which, they couldnt rely on as much if Pain Res would disable after 1 kill). There was a period before where Pain Res was too effective on mobility killers, 15% of people wrote feedback on why it was too effective (info on where the generator with the most progression is+15% regression applied+you could hook anyone to trigger it, meaning it was effectively free and could trigger it 12 times). You had 85% of people just spouting "pain res too stronk, plz nerf". Nowadays, I have seen up to 30% of posts explaining why pain res is a bit problematic (mobility killers can tunnel and still profit off Pain Res, especially thanks to DMS and Grim Embrace, even tho the perk was changed to make tunnelling less effective), and that 2 simple changes (mainly disabling it after 1 kill) can make the perk 1000x more fun to face.
As for my "militant" perspective. No, I have been constructive, even for the majority of the period when constructive stopped having an impact. They have shown that the past 2 years, constructive feedback doesnt matter. I've seen essays on why something doesnt work, and what would be changed to make it work in 2020 and 2025. In the 2020 version, you would maybe see a perk see a slight nerf in their power, but a huge buff in their utility, making it overall a big buff. In 2025? They just make big number bigger, see the bigger number didnt do much, make the number even bigger untill it does do something, then a new killer or perk comes by that actually offers utility in their power that has synergy with that perk and now the perk is busted. People love to hate on the old stance of "bhvr cant buff something without also slightly nerfing it", but that did grow consistency in balance.
And while that does lead to sudden changes that might not work, at least it leads to changes. We've been giving extremely constructive feedback on why RECOVERING WHILE CRAWLING, and CRAWLING FASTER should be basekit, aka effectively Tenacity basekit.. There has been reached a consensus that while some killers will struggle with that, the vast majority wouldnt even notice, because most killers do not need to slug. It would hard counter killers who slug early game (especially tournament nurses and blights), and hard counter slugging in the 2v1. Yet the moment it got implemented, 3 big name content creators claimed it was a BS change and got their communities to yell at BHVR. Despite their reasoning literally being "Why shouldnt I be able to slug survivors for 4 minutes?". 3 years of consistent constructive feedback vs 1 week of yelling. They have lost the right to constructive feedback by listening to people who just echo someone, without even considering the fact that further adjustments can be made (as an example, slugs get their aura revealed every 30 seconds). They decided to follow the screams, rather than years of consistent points.
So simply put, we(people who have been giving constructive feedback for years, but recently got denied because of vocal minorities) decided to scream the opposite, untill they actually have proven to listen to why something needs to change. It's part of the reason why my playtime went from 20 hours a week, to barely 20 hours a month(and that's only because of gamemodes). I would instantly jump back to 10-20 hours a week if they implement basekit anti-slug and improve basekit anti-tunnel, as they promised they would early 2025. Untill then, I will watch the playercount trend drop and only log on if I see a small spike because 2v8 or smth returned for 2 weeks.
Speaking of jobs, its not my job to continue an argument about feedback a month later. I've said my peace, and done so in an attempt at being in your best interest in trying to help not give the devs excuse to ignore your approach to feedback. I even tried to adapt it to your terms as a response to you trying to use your profession as an attempt to disqualify my opinion. There's nothing more to be gained so why restart it as an argument instead of just reflecting on what has been said?
I mean, he is " supposed " to no longer be able to hit through wall (this fix doesn't work lmao).
Btw he got an new exploit, can bypass the fatigue after an leap-vault and instantly attack someone
There is a very simple or very complex way you can go about this. The simple way is to prevent the ghoul from canceling his power while he is mid swing so he cant just instantly basic attack you after traveling across the map to your location.
The second option is to completely change the way he gets his enraged mode. You can keep the mid swing cancelation to do this. After the Ghoul ends a swing, he has "x" seconds to perform some sort of basic attack/bite that will then put him into his enraged state. (the autolock hitscan is just too easy)
In his current state, his animations are buggy and you can't always tell when he is using his power because he's just stuck in the normal running animation, the initial hits are super easy and have 0 skill expression, and being able to just swing and cancel all movement/swing penalty by cancelling power mid swing make the second hits also super easy to achieve.
You can either keep him like legion where first hits are easy to get, but the second takes skill and mind games to get, or make the first hit have downsides like missing, but the second hit is easy (like previously mentioned)
Survivors screamed bloody murder for a bit when Nemesis got a whole 0.5m more tentacle at stage 3. Nemesis! Who by any standards is among the lower tier killers.
isnt that crazy? i feel like they'd scream if they came out with a killer who's power just jumps 3 meters forward and doesnt do anything special lol