top500spiderman
top500spiderman
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@Rick1998 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064737#Comment_4064737
M1 attacks are what trigger jolt for example . No matter how ghoul down you it will always trigger jolt . M1 killers can actually have crazy map traversal . Singularity is a pure m1 killer who can teleport all over the map for example . Ghoul and legion are a hybrid where they have a m2 for the first hit but need to down with a m1 .
They know this, they’re just bending the definition of an M1 killer to help justify the changes.
You’re probably gonna start seeing a bunch of “Ghoul is fine now” or “fun to play against” posts now that people can just exploit his pallet vault 😂
I’m gonna be patient though, because there’s no way Behaviour leaves him like this. People complain about a mid tier killer and the response is to nerf him? That doesn’t even make sense. It feels more like they’re testing or investigating something, because there’s no way that’s the final state.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064789#Comment_4064789
Cut off potenital does not mean just body blocking.
Cutting of a surviour could be swining in front of them before they have time to get to a resource, if they are on a unsafe gen swinging towards recources so they have to run into you or into a dead zone.
it does not mean just the situations where he body blocks a pallet or window.
That has nothing to do with weather a killer is m1 or not. you can step on a trap and trapper can come and scoop you up. That doesnt make him a m2 killer. These killers have to play into the loop and mind game to secure downs. Ghoul is one of them now.
Killers like blight and nurse can reliably use there power to secure downs in loops. M1 killers cant do that.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064786#Comment_4064786
By mechanic you mean his vault? If so, then you are simply wrong.
It's not useless against pallets, if you use Dissolution, that's hard counter.
His vault is definetly worse for pallets, I wouldn't say completely useless, still worth a try to see if survivor knows or not. You still need timing to do it as survivor.
It's definetly not useless overall for Ghoul, when it works for windows with Bamboozle exactly same as before. So your comment about "They might as well just remove it" is just overreaction.Im referring to the pallets, its useless. The revault makes it utterly useless. Even the best ghoul players in the world consider it pretty useless now.
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@random1543 said:
I think M1 is a term that is being used to broadly in general.
Ghoul still has map mobility and cut off potential, he still gets gets his first hit free as a hit scan attack
an example of M1 killer in my head are killers like Trapper and Ghost face both have powers that are avoidable and situational leading to them relying on m1s for both hits in a lot of cases. edit: along with no map mobility
Then we have examples like pinhead, Sure he has to M1 to down people, but his power is more complex then the above mentioned.
Plague is another one that I see get called a m1 killer but that's based on if survivors cleanse and she has apple and iridescent seal to not be a m1 killer.
Then we have killer examples like Vecna, He can technically be a M1 killer because he has to hit you to do damage unless hes hitting every hit with the skulls.
I just think most of the killer roster would be "m1 killers" if the definition is so broad ghoul is being included.It is more reliable for ghoul to chase survivors and mind game in loops and m1 to secure downs then use his power now. He is a very obvious m1 killer now.
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Most of the people bringing up “Ghoul’s cut-off potential” have probably never actually body-blocked a loop themselves. It’s something they’ve either had happen to them once or just seen in clips. In reality, pulling that off consistently against experienced survivors is extremely difficult.
the whole “low skill, high reward” take doesn’t even line up. If Ghoul players are actually cutting survivors off in loops for downs. Most ghoul players relied on his vault for downs.
Now hes just another M1 killer. A lot of these takes just come from frustration rather than what actually happens in game.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064664#Comment_4064664
How is it pretty useless when it works exactly same on windows and you can use perks to counter revault? Sounds as skill issue to me
the mechanic is completely useless at pallets weather you like it or not 😂
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064504#Comment_4064504
It's useless on pallets, if survivor knows what they are doing. You still need timing to get revault.
Speed of his vault is same and most Kaneki players are still going to use either Bamboozle, or the addon to counter windows.
So it's not like his vault is completely useless.Dissolution is also popular perk on Ghoul, which makes pallet revault impossible.
Nah its pretty useless iv done some testing with some buddies and like you said before its even easier to do then before and before was still pretty easy for an experienced survivor. I highly doubt behavior is done with this. Only time will tell.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064375#Comment_4064375
I’m not defending those flaws (the ones you’re probably referring to). It’s not about pride or anything like that; it’s about logic and the realization that it’s impossible to create a 100% perfect system—I can admit that, and I understand it. What I am defending, however, are the points I defended a long time ago. You’re trying hard to make CERTAIN aspects of my proposal seem difficult or impossible, as if it couldn’t be done and as if it were some kind of magic. But it’s not magic—it’s math, algorithms, programming, and functions. I’ve given examples of how this is already happening—there are plays, goals in a game, and they’re being tracked. You insist that they can’t be transferred to the matchmaking system. Why? Because you misunderstood my entire suggestion and now you’re acting like the winner. I wrote earlier in the comments about emblems. It was said that BHVR has already BASED matchmaking on emblems at some point. Yes, that’s true, that system was also flawed. And that’s where the misunderstanding comes in. I’m still not talking about transferring 1:1 what’s collected for emblems. That was just an example to counter the argument “data isn’t collected during the match.” Data is collected during the match because there are emblems, there are blood points, and there are conditions for activating perks. Now, we need to figure out how to feed some of that data into 2 functions—or maybe even 3—related to MMR. This does not equate to a return to the old emblem-based system. And ever since this misunderstanding, there have been, let’s call them “attacks” on me regarding AI and response speed. Just as you yourself wrote—as if pride prevents you from grasping that you don’t understand. And ever since that misunderstanding, there have been—let’s call them “attacks”—on me regarding AI and response times. Just as you yourself wrote—as if pride prevents you from realizing that you didn’t understand, as if pride is forcing you to try to turn a dead end into a highway. All right, let's move on. Take a look at my comment above, read it carefully, and show me what you've got.
That was just an example to counter the argument “data isn’t collected during the match.”
Now were making things up to get out the corner are we? Me and you both know that wasnt what was said. Its that the system reads activities but not why those activities happened. The variables.
this is literally what you said lol
"Measuring every variable is unreliable"
If you believe this is true, then why does the game engine calculate Chase Time, Generator Repairs, and Safe Unhooks with perfect accuracy in order to award Bloodpoints and Emblems in every game? The game has already created a reliable system.
You brought up the emblem system in response to "Measuring every variable is unreliable" not "data isn’t collected during the match." Now your trying to do damage control by lying to once again avoid from just admitting your system had major flaws.
Now, we need to figure out how to feed some of that data into 2 functions—or maybe even 3—related to MMR. This does not equate to a return to the old emblem-based system. And ever since this misunderstanding
You’re still using the same activity data to judge performance and influence matchmaking, that’s literally what the emblem system was.
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064457#Comment_4064457
you still can revault
So if theyve given up on trying to stop the revault why even keep the mechanic? They might as well just remove it, its useless.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064467#Comment_4064467
how is revault not intended now when they removed the countermeasure?
Because the countermeasure was there to prevent the revault but it literally hits people around corners its really buggy. I doubt they didn't make tweaks to the collision after taking it away.
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@Senaxu said:
This patch note pretty much answers the whole debate. The automatic hit at the end of a Kagune Leap vault clearly was not intended counterplay, because they removed it outright. And the way it is written is pretty unambiguous, so there is not much room left for interpretation. At least now it is clear what the intended behavior is.
No, the revault was not and still not intended. The automatic hit was to counteract that issue but its to buggy, hitting people around corners so it got removed.
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the automatic damage being removed is 100% right. But i dont think you can revault after a leap vault.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064271#Comment_4064271
Your example of “weather rock” is a great illustration of what I mean.
A weather rock can tell you if it is raining. It cannot tell you if it is cold outside. If you use a weather rock to measure the temperature of a room, you are not getting low-resolution data; you are using the wrong tool to do so.
The 1/0 system measures a team-based outcome (did your team get an escape for you?). It does not measure an individual mechanical skill set. Using a survival "weather rock" to measure an individual skill set in an asymmetrical game is not a problem of resolution; it is a problem of architecture. Furthermore, BHVR has access to the thermometer (i.e., the engine's detailed telemetry), but are actively choosing to use the weather rock anyway. You state that the original system was changed due to "a variety of reasons, all of which are only known by the dev team." This is a textbook fallacy known as Appeal to Authority. We are in a feedback forum discussing the mathematics involved in matchmaking. Shaking your shoulders and saying, "Well, we have no idea why; it is a dev team decision," is an admission that you cannot mathematically defend this system to begin with. Again, you're mixing up a Monthly Progress Ladder, where you go from rank 20 to rank 1, with a matchmaking system, such as SBMM or Elo. These are two completely different animals. My original point still stands, which you've already admitted yourself: the system is fully capable of tracking all that data. You're complaining I missed your "main point," which is that my posts "read as AI generated." I've already dealt with this issue multiple times. I use Microsoft Word to type up my posts because I'm a bit of a neat freak and I like to organize my thoughts using proper syntax, paragraphs, and bullet points, so people can actually read what I'm saying. I even made a joke about it last time I responded. If you're shocked that your posts don't look like a jumbled mess of words, with proper grammar, syntax, and a logical flow, then perhaps you're not used to reading posts written by humans. If you'd rather discuss why this game uses a weather rock instead of a thermometer, I'm happy to discuss that with you. If you're still upset about how I'm writing, then perhaps you shouldn't bother writing at all. What's your purpose here, then? Is it because you're intimidated by Word formatting that we're done here?My original point still stands, which you've already admitted yourself: the system is fully capable of tracking all that data
It doesn't, The system only tracks activities not the variables of why those activities happen. Your point crumbled a long time ago. But your just fighting with pride and refusing to acknowledge the large flaws that were pointed out in what you’re proposing. Instead it looks like you’re trying to force whatever LLM you’re using to smooth over those flaws, but it can’t.
IT'S JUST A SUGGESTION. I don't expect anyone to take this specific suggestion and implement it right away
You saying this tells me you understand the system you propose may have flaws. So why are you defending the flaws that have been pointed out about it? is it because it crumbles your entire system? Its ok if it does. Very accomplished scientist write papers all the time that get trashed, criticized and rejected all the time. Dont let your pride make you try to turn a dead end into a highway.
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@Navenallimcam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064318#Comment_4064318
This is one hell of an accurate summary. Everyone wants change, but changes keep getting complained about. Things will never change.
The problem is survivor mains want Solo Q improved, but they don’t want to touch what makes high level SWFs so strong. Most of the suggestions just turn into survivor buffs or killer nerfs, which doesn’t actually fix the issue.
The real problem is the pace of the game. Coordinated SWFs can push gens way too fast when they play efficiently. To fix that, the game would have to be slowed down so that even if a SWF does everything right, the killer still has a decent amount of time to get pressure before gens start popping.
That kind of change would require adjustments on both sides, not just buffing survivors or nerfing killers. Until then strong killers and strategies like tunneling will be needed just to keep up at higher levels.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064025#Comment_4064025
You have managed to boil down a complicated system architecture discussion into three simplistic bullet points because you have no other way to argue the actual mechanics of the game. Let’s address your last arguments:
- "Escapes/Kills are not random"
While in a pure 1v1 game such as Chess or StarCraft, game outcomes are indeed not random. Dead by Daylight is a 1v4 game. In a Solo Queue game, your own escape is heavily influenced by RNG and factors outside your control. You have no control over whether a teammate will disconnect at 5 gens, whether a teammate will kill themselves on their first hook, or whether the Killer wants to give someone a Hatch. Judging a player on the unpredictable behavior of three random strangers is statistical noise. - "Measuring every variable is unreliable"
If you believe this is true, then why does the game engine calculate Chase Time, Generator Repairs, and Safe Unhooks with perfect accuracy in order to award Bloodpoints and Emblems in every game? The game has already created a reliable system. Your argument is against how the game is currently designed. Your argument is flawed because you are arguing against how the game currently works. - "Measuring the outcome avoids that problem"
No, it ignores reality and is a fatal flaw in your argument. Your simplistic system mathematically awards a player who hides in a locker for 15 minutes and escapes via Hatch (+MMR), while punishing a game MVP who chased the Killer for 3 gens and got hooked (-MMR).
I have answered these arguments many times before, yet you still do not want to accept the fact that you are dealing with a symmetrical game design issue. Your last resort is clearly "the devs won't even bother reading this," so I am done with this conversation.
If it doesn't make sense, you don't have to write anything. And as you yourself pointed out—IT'S JUST A SUGGESTION. I don't expect anyone to take this specific suggestion and implement it right away. It’s just an outline, a rough draft. I’ve outlined the problems, I’ve outlined what needs to be improved, I’ve outlined what we have in terms of data, I’ve outlined what it COULD look like, but that doesn’t mean it has to match my suggestion exactly, because it doesn’t have to. And the suggestion itself? It seems logical, since you’ve decided to discuss it.- That didn't prove escapes/kills are random. There still not.
2. Thats not measuring every variable. The emblem system only tracks activities, not the why. The why is the variables.
3. A player who hides and goes for hatch every game will lose MMR overtime. So no there not rewarded.
- "Escapes/Kills are not random"
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I get the frustration but the devs can’t fix every issue at once, bugs have to be prioritized based on severity and how many players are affected. On top of that, some things that feel buggy can actually come from latency/ping differences since the game relies heavily on server timing and hit validation.
Its gonna take time. Just take a break from dbd for a while.
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I suggest you post this video you keep referencing, if you cant do that i think i have my conclusion of whats going on here.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063764#Comment_4063764
- The AI Comment Clarification
Ah, I see. You weren’t asking an AI for the answer; you were just making another sarcastic ad hominem about my writing style. Understood. Let’s move past the personal jabs and get back to the actual game data.
- The "Bell Curve" Fallacy (Standard Deviation)
You stated: "BHVR knows what 'high MMR' is based on their quarterly stat drops; implying that there is in fact a bell curve to which a standard deviation would apply. Sorry you are incorrect."
You are mistaken in assuming that the data within the curve is correct.
If I ranked 1,000 players by flipping a coin for each of them every match, I can easily tell you that the data within the curve would perfectly represent a bell curve (Normal Distribution). I can easily tell you the top 5% of that curve and call it "High Coin-Flip MMR." However, the fact that this data follows a bell curve does not mean that the data itself is correct.
The fact that BHVR can plot their 1/0 Escapes/Kills onto a graph and find a median does not mean that the data within the curve is correct. A bell curve of corrupted data is still corrupted data.
- The "Unhook Farming" Scenario
You stated that rewarding Safe Unhooks would cause bad players to farm hooked survivors instead of doing generators while the Killer camps.
You're completely disregarding the way in which modern telemetry handles such concepts as Proximity and Negative Constraints.
If the Killer is 'Face Camping' the survivor, a proper performance system (and indeed the current system in DbD itself, the Emblem system), will take this into consideration. An unhook that immediately results in the death of the survivor will be recorded as an Unsafe Unhook, resulting in a significant penalty against the Killer attempting the unhook. The system will also take into consideration the Killer's Proximity to the Hook in the game world. The dynamic MMR system will reward players for pushing generators while the Killer is locked in place at the Hook. You're essentially arguing against the basic system that I'm not advocating for in the first place.
- The Retreat
"I'm not going to explain the situation again... so I'm going to save myself the time."
I'll admit that you're right regarding the Billy/Pallet example. The moment the actual micro-mechanics of the system come up in the form of how the telemetry system itself logs events, you immediately back down.
- On Being "Condescending"
I'm not here to make you feel condescending towards you or any other individual reading this article. I'm here to have a debate regarding the architecture of the matchmaking system in Dead by Daylight. I write in such a detailed manner because that's the only way in which I can effectively discuss the data science that goes into the system. If you take the mathematical inconsistencies in the algorithm as condescending towards you personally, then I apologize for that. But I'll certainly not dumb down the data science in order to make the current 1/0 MMR system look more favorable than it really is.
- Coin flips are random → Escapes/Kills is not random
- Measuring every variable is unreliable
- Measuring the outcome avoids that problem
- Its really that simple. Your really just wasting your time typing in circles around those 2 simple problems with your system. You still have yet to address it. No dev on the team will read what your proposing and take it serious, its not logical.
- The AI Comment Clarification
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063948#Comment_4063948
What other statics would they be looking at when they made the middle of road comment? genuinely curious.
The only other stat it could be is the DC stat they mentioned was low, but why would they balance based on DCs that would be more evidence that they are out of touch as that just encourages people to dc for balance changes.
We can see from official publicly released stats for last year he is number 1 pick rate so hes not middle of the road when it comes to that
I also agree hes not middle of the road kill rate wise, as again publicly released official stats put him in top 5 kill rate, only killer outside blight to show up on both top 10 pick rates and top 10 kill rates.
So what stats that does leave? Average match length? Average hooks? would be odd for them to seemly use these stats just for ghoul when we haven't seen that logic in the past in balancing. eg nerf ad ons that are highly used,
Edit: Ghoul is also at the top of these last year stats when he was released 3 months into the year, so even with a 3 month delay hes still that high.The devs can see the data in a much more detailed and precise way. That’s probably why, despite The Nurse having a lower overall kill rate, they still consider her one of the strongest killers in the game. They’re likely looking at performance across different MMRs.
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@stealthyflash67 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063785#Comment_4063785
apperently, lets just nerf a low-tier instead then because ghoul is apperently fine stat wise.
so i guess we are nerfing, dredge, onyro, freddy, twins and maybe nerf survivor soloq along the way.Ah good point, but first you gotta find where the devs actually said he was middle of the road in kill rate.
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@Mysore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063812#Comment_4063812
The Nurse has a below-average kill rate and is the strongest killer in the game, so that argument doesn't hold water.
The devs didn’t say he was middle of the road in terms of kill rate, they just said he was middle of the road overall. They’ve also explicitly said that The Nurse is one of the strongest killers in the game, which already shows they’re not judging strength purely by kill rate. If they were only looking at kill rate, Nurse wouldn’t be considered one of the strongest killers.
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Survivors get inactivity penalties because there doing nothing. They already won the chase and downed you, and leaving someone on the ground is a strategy to apply pressure or stop saves. Thats not doing nothing.
Those two things aren’t comparable.
Also the “survivors can’t save you without getting hit” means nothing. Taking hits, using pallets, flashlights, or perks is literally how saves work. So im not sure what you mean their.
And it’s not “holding the game hostage” when there’s already a 4 minute bleed out timer built into the game. The match will progress regardless.
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yup, lets nerf a killer thats not OP just because.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063740#Comment_4063740
You are continuing to shift the goalposts and, in the process, introducing some truly fascinating mathematical theories. Let's address them systematically.1. The 1/4th Math (A Logical Breakdown)You stated: "Based on just raw ratios alone, a killer player can be on par with one survivor player with only 1/4th the hours... these survivors have the equivalent killer knowledge of a 137 hour killer player."This is mathematically and logically absurd. Experience is not a shared pizza that gets divided by the number of players in a lobby. If a Survivor has 550 hours of playtime, their brain has processed 550 hours of map layouts, looping mechanics, killer powers, and tile RNG. You do not calculate $\frac{550}{4} = 137.5$ simply because it is a 1v4 game. By that logic, a CS:GO player with 1000 hours actually only has 200 hours of experience because it's a 5v5 game. That is not how human learning or data science works.2. The Billy Riddle Answered (Input vs. Outcome)You claim I dodged your scenario about pre-dropping a pallet against a Hillbilly to secure a safe unhook. I didn't dodge it; you simply don't understand how telemetry scores events.You are obsessing over the micro-input (dropping the wood) rather than the macro-outcome. If Ace pre-drops that pallet, blocks the Billy, and safely unhooks Mikaela, the system does not need to calculate the philosophical intent of the pallet drop. The system awards Ace a massive telemetry spike for the Safe Unhook and Protection Hit/Distraction.Good algorithms do not need to score every micro-action; they score the resulting game state. The pre-drop enabled the safe unhook. The safe unhook generates the MMR value. It is incredibly simple.3. "Stats in a Vacuum" and Dynamic WeightingYou argue that doing a generator while the team is slugged shouldn't award MMR, claiming this proves my system would be gamed.Again, you are ignoring how modern algorithms function. Telemetry is dynamically weighted based on concurrent game states. If the system logs that 2 teammates are in the Dying state, the algorithm dynamically applies a negative multiplier to Objective points and a massive positive multiplier to Altruism/Healing points.Ironically, Dead by Daylight already does this. If you work on a generator while someone is on a hook, your Lightbringer emblem points are actively penalized. The engine already knows how to contextualize stats outside of a vacuum.4. The Standard Deviation ParadoxYou claim the current system's sole purpose is to keep players "within one standard deviation of their loosely assigned skill level."In statistics, you cannot calculate a valid standard deviation ($\sigma$) if your baseline metric for measuring the data is fundamentally flawed. If your metric (1/0 Escape/Die) frequently assigns a negative value to the best player in the match and a positive value to a player hiding in a locker, then your entire dataset is corrupted. You are calculating the standard deviation of garbage data. Grouping players based on corrupted data does not create "competitive matches"; it creates random matches disguised by a hidden number.
So you’re accusing me of using AI to write, and then you turn to ChatGPT yourself and use it as an argument? I’d like to point out that ChatGPT and other AI can generate inaccurate results, even when they cite sources. ChatGPT isn’t really a good example either, because if I’m not mistaken, its knowledge base is current as of 2021 or a little later. And there have been changes in DBD since then.
Goodness. you didn’t have to turn your reply into a solid wall of text just because someone accused you of using an LLM.
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@Xray said:
The rework was delayed that i know, but ever since its delay BHVR has been pretty much radio silent about it and its making me nervous. I dont have much hope for it but at least tell us more about it.
It probably hasn't been forgotten but this "massive mmr rework" that people have in their minds isnt likely to happen. It likely would be minor changes, but still outcome based.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063590#Comment_4063590
You keep bringing up this "attribution problem"—the idea that the system cannot reliably link a long chase to generator progress. This is technically false, and the game’s own engine proves it.
- The Engine Already Correlates Concurrent Events
A game engine does not guess; it logs concurrent event states based on timestamps. If Player A's status is In_Chase and Players B, C, and D have a status of Repairing_Generator during those exact same timestamps, the system has absolute, mathematical proof of what is happening. There is no guesswork required. - Dead by Daylight ALREADY Does This Math (Emblems)
You claim the system "only sees the duration of the chase, not the cause" and cannot assign credit.
Have you looked at how the Emblem actually works? If you are actively being chased by the Killer, and your teammates complete a generator during that chase, the game explicitly awards YOU Lightbringer points for distracting the Killer. The developers already wrote the code that links a player's chase directly to the team's generator progress. The system actively tracks the overlapping timestamps, understands that your chase created the safe environment for the generators to pop, and explicitly assigns you credit for it in real-time.
Your entire defense of the outcome-based system rests on the premise that telemetry cannot connect these variables or assign individual credit. But it already does. The engine already perfectly attributes the distraction to the objective. The primitive 1/0 MMR system simply chooses to throw that perfectly accurate telemetry in the trash.
- The Zero-Contribution Math (The Hatch)
You correctly pointed out that a Hatch escape is MMR-neutral (a value of 0). Thank you for bringing that up, because it perfectly illustrates how broken the current math is.
Let’s look at the exact values BHVR assigns:
Player A: Hides in a locker for 15 minutes, 0 gens done, 0 unhooks, 0 seconds in chase. Escapes through Hatch. Result: 0 MMR change. (Or if they sneak out an Exit Gate after the team dies, they get +1 MMR).
Player B: Loops the killer for 3 gens, completes 2 gens, gets facecamped to death to secure the win for the team. Result: -1 MMR penalty.
You are defending an algorithm that mathematically calculates a 0% contribution as a higher value than a 90% contribution. That is not a functional ranking system; that is a broken spreadsheet.
Outcome-based MMR works perfectly in symmetrical games (Chess, CS:GO, LoL) where the team's outcome and the individual's outcome are identical. It fundamentally fails in a 1v4 asymmetrical game where an individual's death is often the exact tactical requirement for the team's victory.
1.Logging concurrent timestamps doesn’t prove what you think it proves. It shows that events happened at the same time, not that one event caused the other.
If Player A is in chase while others are repairing generators, the engine can record that overlap, but it cannot prove the chase created the generator progress. The killer may have already committed to that chase, the generators may have been nearly complete, the killer may have misplayed, or the map may have spawned strong tiles that prolonged the chase. The data only shows correlation, not causation.
So no, the engine doesn’t have “absolute mathematical proof” that the chase generated the objective value. It only has proof that the events occurred concurrently, which is a very different thing.
2.The emblem system doesn’t prove the engine can assign real causal credit, it just proves it can apply a simple reward heuristic.
Lightbringer points are awarded when events overlap, but that doesn’t mean the system proved the chase actually caused the generator progress. It’s a convenience rule for distributing bloodpoints, not a validated measure of skill.
3.The example you gave only works if you treat a single match as proof of a ranking system failing, which isn’t how rating systems work.
In one match, sure, someone might contribute a lot and still die while another player escapes with little contribution. But matchmaking systems aren’t designed to judge one match; they measure patterns over many matches. A player who hides every game and contributes nothing will rarely convert matches into real wins and will quickly stabilize at a lower rating. A player who consistently creates pressure, does generators, and helps secure escapes will convert more matches into successful outcomes over time.
Your scenario is just an edge case. Ranking systems aren’t built around edge cases, they’re built around long term signals.
You are defending an algorithm that mathematically calculates a 0% contribution as a higher value than a 90% contribution. That is not a functional ranking system; that is a broken spreadsheet.
That statement only works if you assume the system is trying to measure “percentage contribution” in a single match. It isn’t.
Matchmaking systems aren’t designed to calculate who contributed the most in one game; they’re designed to estimate which players consistently produce winning outcomes over many games. A single match where someone contributes a lot but dies doesn’t invalidate the system, because rankings aren’t based on isolated matches, they’re based on long term results.
So no, the system isn’t calculating “0% > 90%.” It’s simply not trying to score individual contribution in the first place. It’s measuring which players’ decisions consistently lead to successful outcomes over time.
- The Engine Already Correlates Concurrent Events
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063420#Comment_4063420
- The "What if they fail?" Scenario
You argue: "If they don’t [convert that time into generators], the chase alone wins nothing."
You act as if a performance-based MMR would break in this scenario. It wouldn't. Here is exactly what happens in a properly designed system when a player loops for 5 minutes but the team fails to do objectives and everyone dies:
The outcome is a team loss. However, the three teammates who contributed nothing get a massive MMR penalty. The looper receives a heavily mitigated MMR loss (or a slight positive bump) because their telemetry proves they performed their role exceptionally well despite the team's failure.The ultimate irony? Dead by Daylight already does this exact calculation. In your scenario, the current game awards the looper maximum Boldness Bloodpoints and Emblems, while the teammates get nothing or less. The engine perfectly understands who contributed and who didn't. You are just defending BHVR's refusal to feed that existing, highly accurate data into the matchmaking algorithm.
- The Ultimate Irony: "Escape" is the Noisiest Data of All
You dismiss telemetry like chase time as "noisy data" because it involves map RNG, killer decisions, and teammate interference. But you are fiercely defending "Survival" (the 1/0 outcome) as the ultimate metric.
In an asymmetrical 1v4 game, Survival is the single noisiest, most RNG-heavy data point in existence. Whether a Solo Queue player survives depends on: Did a teammate DC at 5 gens? Did someone farm them off the hook? Did the killer decide to be friendly and give them the hatch? Did the killer bring a Mori?
You cannot mathematically claim that "Chase Time" is too noisy to measure individual skill, while simultaneously defending "Did you survive?"—a metric that is 90% out of the individual player's control in Solo Queue.- The "Hatch" Defense Fails
You argue a locker-hider will escape inconsistently and settle at a lower rating. You are entirely missing the point.
The fact that the algorithm awards them any positive rating at all for a zero-contribution game, while handing a negative rating to the teammate who actually progressed the objective but died on a hook, proves the feedback loop is completely detached from gameplay reality. A system should never reward a 0% contribution with a "+1".
Your examples all depend on the same assumption: that the system can reliably determine why something happened in a match. It can’t.
In your 5 gen looper example, you assume the system can prove the chase caused the generators. Telemetry can’t isolate that. A long chase could come from survivor skill, killer mistakes, strong tile spawns, power matchups, or the killer overcommitting. The system only sees the duration of the chase, not the cause. That’s the attribution problem you keep overlooking. You still have yet to address this issue in your argument.
Your emblem argument doesn’t solve that either. Emblems measure activity for rewards, not skill for matchmaking. Dead by Daylight previously tied progression to emblem performance through the pip/rank system, and that system was replaced with hidden MMR because those metrics were easy to game and didn’t correlate well with match outcomes.
Your “survival is noisy” point also misunderstands how rating systems work. Individual matches contain randomness, but across large samples that variance averages out. Players whose decisions consistently lead to escapes or kills rise over time, while those whose decisions don’t fall.
And the hatch example doesn’t support your claim either. Hatch escapes do not meaningfully increase survivor MMR, so hiding all match and jumping into hatch doesn’t create the rating inflation you’re describing.
That’s the fundamental issue: your proposal assumes the algorithm can infer causation from telemetry. In reality it can only observe actions. Because those actions are influenced by many interacting variables, the system cannot reliably assign individual credit inside a team interaction. That’s why matchmaking systems measure results over time instead of trying to reverse-engineer credit from individual moments.
- The "What if they fail?" Scenario
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063372#Comment_4063372
- The DodgeWhether I introduced the 5-gen looper scenario in my last post, the one before it, or yesterday is irrelevant semantics. You are bringing it up only to still dodge the actual question. I will ask it a third time:If a player loops for 5 gens, secures 3 escapes, but dies on a facecamp, who produced that win?You refuse to answer because acknowledging it destroys your theory. Under your 1/0 model, the MVP who generated the win gets punished (MMR DOWN), and the three players who safely held M1 on generators get rewarded (MMR UP). That does not measure "win probability." It measures survival by proxy.
- The "Variables" Excuse and Basic StatisticsYou claim telemetry can't determine if a chase is skill, map RNG, or killer mistakes. Welcome to the Law of Large Numbers. Over a sample size of 50 or 100 matches, map RNG and lucky tile spawns average out. If a survivor consistently logs 2-3 minute chases across dozens of games, that is statistical, measurable mechanical skill. Furthermore, forcing a killer to make a mistake and capitalizing on it is skill. A functional algorithm smooths out variance over time; the 1/0 system just ignores it entirely.
You write about these random events, about map RNG, tiles resp, or teammates getting in the way, as if that weren't already the case. It already does. And how does it affect the MMR result? Well, by demonstrating your skills, you take advantage of it. If Blight happens to be on a good open map, and the scouts make basic mistakes, Blight takes advantage of it. It already happens. Your problem is that you are trying to give examples of situations where the improved system would have a problem, would have to deal with them (but the current weak system already does), as if they only appeared with the new system, but they already exist. Your examples are already present.
- The Emblem Myth and "Gaming the System"You claim the Emblem system was replaced because it was "easy to game." That is historically partially false. BHVR implemented a hidden MMR to enforce a synthetic kill rate of around 50% and soften matchmaking parameters to reduce queue times, not to ensure fairness in gameplay. But fairness in gameplay isn't okay here either. You want to talk about a system being "easy to game"? Under your beloved outcome-based MMR, a Survivor can hide in a locker for 15 minutes, touch zero generators, get zero unhooks, wait for their entire team to die, jump into the Hatch, and gain MMR because they "survived." Meanwhile, the teammate who did 3 generators and unhooked twice dies and loses MMR. A system that rewards locker-hiding and punishes playmaking is functionally broken.
- The "Losing Performance" ParadoxYou state: "The moment a ranking system allows players to climb while losing matches, it stops measuring who actually wins."Dead by Daylight is a 1v4 asymmetrical game. Individual survival $\neq$ team win. If my death guarantees 3 people escape, my performance directly engineered that victory. In modern, highly competitive games (like CS:GO, Valorant, or Apex), underlying personal performance metrics actively mitigate your ELO loss—or even allow you to climb slightly—if you play exceptionally well but the match is a technical loss.Punishing the playmaker breaks the ladder. Recognizing their telemetry fixes it.
The DodgeWhether I introduced the 5-gen looper scenario in my last post, the one before it, or yesterday is irrelevant semantics. You are bringing it up only to still dodge the actual question
i didnt bring it up you did when you said i ignored it in your last post. That was false. I didnt ignore it because it wasnt there that simple.
Your repeating the 5-gen looper scenario, but it actually highlights the core problem
Yes, a long chase creates time, but the teammates still have to convert that time into generators and escapes. If they don’t, the chase alone wins nothing. From telemetry the system can’t reliably determine whether the win came from the chase, the gen efficiency, killer mistakes, or map conditions. In a team game those contributions are interdependent.
Your “law of large numbers” argument doesn’t fix that. Averaging noisy data doesn’t turn it into a clean signal if the metric itself mixes multiple variables. Chase time is influenced by map RNG, killer decisions, teammate interference, and power design, so over many matches you’re still averaging a mixture of factors, not pure skill.
And the hatch example doesn’t break outcome based MMR either. A player who hides all match and relies on hatch will escape inconsistently and settle at a lower rating, while players who consistently contribute to wins climb over time.
MMR isn’t trying to reward the “MVP moment.” It’s trying to estimate which players actually win more over many matches, and outcome-based systems do that far more reliably than trying to reverse-engineer credit from intermediate stats.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063254#Comment_4063254
You are artificially separating two systems that, in any functional competitive architecture, must be unified. If your "ranking layer" and your "gameplay layer" are fighting each other, the design is fundamentally flawed.
- The Paradox of Conflicting Layers
You claim MMR only evaluates the outcome, while the gameplay layer restricts "degenerate strategies." But here is the massive flaw in that logic: because the primitive 1/0 MMR system only cares about the outcome, it actively rewards and incentivizes those degenerate strategies.
If the ranking system is completely blind to how a kill is achieved, the absolute most optimal way to climb the ladder is to bypass the intended gameplay loop entirely (e.g., hard tunneling one survivor out at 5 gens). A properly designed Performance MMR aligns with the gameplay layer—it rewards players for engaging in the core mechanics (chases, hooks, saves) rather than operating blind to them.
- You Dodged the Core Question
You keep repeating that MMR measures the "ability to produce wins." I will ask you again, since you completely ignored this scenario in my last reply:
If a Solo Queue survivor loops the Killer for 5 straight generators, gets facecamped, and dies while the other 3 survivors escape, who produced that win? The looper was the sole architect of that victory. Yet, your "outcome-based" MMR punishes the player who generated the win (MMR DOWN) and rewards the 3 players who just held M1 on generators (MMR UP). How does punishing the playmaker accurately estimate "win probability"? It doesn't. It measures survival by proxy.
- The Engine Already Does This
You speak about tracking intermediate metrics as if it would "break" the game. You are ignoring the fact that BHVR already built this architecture: The Emblem System.
The game's engine already flawlessly tracks Chase etc etc metrics. It already evaluates your mechanical skill and efficiency during the match. The telemetry is already there. Refusing to feed that existing, highly accurate data into the matchmaking algorithm isn't "protecting the ranking system"—it is just lazy data science.
In addition, your previous posts (and not only yours) suggest that the systems in DBD do not see what is happening in the match. But they see it perfectly well. There is an anti-facecamp system, there are blood points. This data is already being collected. It's not rocket science. Now all you need to do is transfer some of this data to another function. But ultimately, in the current system, “anything you do during the match is fine,” and that's exactly how it is. Since you yourself write that it doesn't matter how long you loop the killer, it doesn't matter if the survivor made 5 generators or 2, or if they looped through 5 generators, but since the system doesn't take into account what you did in the match, the killer camps, hacks, and gets a kill - they are better. This is not mixing mechanics, but your own words. If it doesn't matter that he loops the killer for 5 generators, then it doesn't matter if the killer tunnels, slugs, or camps. Ultimately, the result is that you either died or survived. Where is the mixing of systems here, as it is simply showing how it currently looks? Where is the mixing of systems here, as you say? Your “mixing of mechanics” looks like you've never even played a single match.
You keep repeating that MMR measures the "ability to produce wins." I will ask you again, since you completely ignored this scenario in my last reply:
Are you actually reading your post? you never gave that scenario in your last post. So how did i ignore it?
You’re still trying to reward individual moments in a team outcome game.
There are too many variables for the system to reliably determine why something happened. A long chase might be survivor skill, but it could also be killer mistakes, map RNG, tile spawns, or teammate interference. Telemetry can record actions, but it can’t reliably assign credit for them.
Your emblem example actually works against your point. The game already experimented with performance-based progression through the emblem/pip rank system, where things like chase, altruism, and objectives affected rank. Behaviour replaced that with outcome-based MMR because those metrics were easy to game and didn’t correlate well with actual match results.
And the biggest flaw in your proposal is that it rewards losing performance. If a survivor runs the killer for several generators but dies, you’re arguing they should still gain rating. The moment a ranking system allows players to climb while losing matches, it stops measuring who actually wins.
You keep repeating the same claim without addressing the flaws in your system. Until you actually deal with those problems, the response isn’t going to change.
- The Paradox of Conflicting Layers
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@azaxydbd said:
consoles should be able to play on 120hz, and servers tickrate should be upgraded to 128tick or more, and allow players to play on higher fps on pc.
Ping already creates inconsistencies in hit registration. Letting FPS vary wildly would just add another layer of imbalance, so the 120 cap helps keep things fair.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063116#Comment_4063116
Your argument runs into a fundamental contradiction.
You’re saying a survivor who runs the killer for several minutes but dies should still gain rating because they showed “mechanical skill.” But ranking systems aren’t designed to reward isolated mechanics, they’re designed to rank players based on their ability to produce wins.
If a system starts awarding rating to players who lose simply because they performed one part of the match well, the ranking immediately stops reflecting win probability. At that point the optimal strategy isn’t winning, it’s maximizing whatever metric gives rating.
That’s why competitive matchmaking systems anchor ratings to outcomes. Individual stats are far too context-dependent in team games. A long chase might come from survivor skill, but it might also come from killer mistakes, strong map tiles, teammate interference, or the killer committing too long.
Once you detach rating from outcomes and start rewarding intermediate metrics, you create a system where losing players can climb. That doesn’t measure skill, it breaks the ranking entirely.
So what? After our discussion, I can tunnel, slug, and camp with impunity? Well, if it doesn't matter what I do during the match, what skills I demonstrate while looping, because only the final result counts, then I have to strive for that final result. So the anti-face camp, anti-slug, and anti-tunnel systems are pointless, unnecessary, and completely destroy the current MMR system. At least according to your logic, because in reality it's different.So what? After our discussion, I can tunnel, slug, and camp with impunity? Well, if it doesn't matter what I do during the match, what skills I demonstrate while looping, because only the final result counts, then I have to strive for that final result. So the anti-face camp, anti-slug, and anti-tunnel systems are pointless, unnecessary, and completely destroy the current MMR system. At least according to your logic, because in reality it's different.
You’re mixing up two completely different systems.
MMR is a ranking system whose job is to estimate win probability. Anti-facecamp, anti-slug, and anti-tunnel mechanics are gameplay balance systems designed to prevent degenerate strategies that make the match unhealthy or uninteractive.
Those systems don’t exist to measure skill, they exist to enforce rules about how the game should be played. Competitive games do this all the time. A ranking system measures outcomes, while the game itself restricts strategies that would make those outcomes unhealthy for the experience.
So no, your conclusion doesn’t follow. Saying MMR should be outcome-based doesn’t mean “anything you do during the match is fine.” It just means the ranking system evaluates the result of the match, while the game’s rule set limits strategies that would break the gameplay.
Those are two completely different design layers.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061730#Comment_4061730
People are for/against it based on how it fits their narrative.
So hey Ghoul has normal kill rate, but so does Nurse…He is still obnoxious, so that at least warrant changes, it doesn't have to be strict nerf.
Well the devs have said that the nurse is one of the strongest killers in the game they never said that same thing about ghoul.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062809#Comment_4062809
You are arguing from the perspective of a theoretical vacuum, completely ignoring how Dead by Daylight actually plays out in reality.
- "Activity vs. Skill"
You claim that measuring chases measures "activity, not skill." What other mechanical skills are there in DbD? Are we even playing the same game? The entire mechanical depth of this game is built around looping (windows/pallets), managing totems, and item efficiency (flashlights, toolboxes, firecrackers, med-kits). If a player successfully loops a Killer for 3 minutes using precise mechanical inputs while their team repairs generators, that isn't just "activity"—that is the highest expression of skill the game has to offer. And what are the main goals in DBD matches? Looping the killer and repairing generators = escape. Without generators, you won't escape, and without looping the killer, you won't be able to repair generators. What else do you want to measure as a goal? People optimize their actions anyway, whether it's for generators (genrush) or killer looping. This has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen regardless of the system. Why? Because this game features perks and the ability to build different combinations. When I test a new perk for looping, I create a full build for looping and optimize my actions for looping. If this is no longer happening, then why are people using perks like lithe and windows? Precisely for looping. Already, depending on which killer they encounter, people are pre-dropping pallet after pallet, doing nothing but destroying pallets, so I don't know why you're pretending that this is only going to happen when it's already happening. And if they optimize their own skills for looping (for example, training on custom maps), what's the problem? Isn't the point to keep getting better? Where's the problem here? - The "Optimization" Myth
You argue that if the game tracked chases, players would "optimize for those metrics instead of the objective." Have you looked at the current meta? Players already optimize for chases! The vast majority of loadouts are entirely built around chase perks, exhaustion perks, flashlights, and looping add-ons. The community already plays this way. The only difference is that the current 1/0 MMR system is completely blind to it. - You Misunderstood the Math
I am not suggesting that a long chase should equal a massive MMR spike. I am suggesting a slight, weighted bump. If you loop well, your MMR should receive a fractional adjustment to reflect that mechanical competence, rather than the system treating you exactly like a beginner just because you sacrificed yourself on the final hook. - The 1/0 System Measures Luck, Not Skill
Currently, the binary outcome doesn't measure a "reliable signal." It measures who had the best combination of map RNG, meta perks, team coordination (or lack thereof), opponent mistakes, and sheer luck.
If you truly believe that looping a Killer and buying your team the time to finish the objective has no bearing on actual skill, I have to ask: what do you actually do in your matches? Do you just sit in the corner of the map doing generators and never engage in a chase?
Your argument runs into a fundamental contradiction.
You’re saying a survivor who runs the killer for several minutes but dies should still gain rating because they showed “mechanical skill.” But ranking systems aren’t designed to reward isolated mechanics, they’re designed to rank players based on their ability to produce wins.
If a system starts awarding rating to players who lose simply because they performed one part of the match well, the ranking immediately stops reflecting win probability. At that point the optimal strategy isn’t winning, it’s maximizing whatever metric gives rating.
That’s why competitive matchmaking systems anchor ratings to outcomes. Individual stats are far too context-dependent in team games. A long chase might come from survivor skill, but it might also come from killer mistakes, strong map tiles, teammate interference, or the killer committing too long.
Once you detach rating from outcomes and start rewarding intermediate metrics, you create a system where losing players can climb. That doesn’t measure skill, it breaks the ranking entirely.
- "Activity vs. Skill"
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@EntityNea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062837#Comment_4062837
… Which is a form of "auto aim", since it's automatically adjusting where you are aiming.
This also is only enabled for controllers. Any other game have separate lobbies for aim assist VS non-aim assist, so that players can make that choice.
Either way, my main point with this post is how the default setting for cross-platform causes platform-dedicated lobbies to be very empty.Do you have any idea how bad controller feels on killer in DBD? Aim assist? Are you serious? 😂
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@EntityNea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062809#Comment_4062809
it might be like that in once match, yes, which in the long run won't matter.
if you collect data from hundreds of matches, you can then compare that data to other players.
For example, if the average chase time across all players is 50 seconds, but you tend to go down after 15 seconds.. you're going to be below average in that category. Even if you get one match where the killer is extremely bad and chases you for 3 minutes, it won't suddenly make your average jump up because that's just one out of many matches.
At the same time, (and this is why i said BHVR would never implement this correctly), you also have to look at circumstances around the chase.
for example, if the game detects you being in a chase because the killer is friendly, check for that by, for example seeing if the killer stays in very close proximity without swinging, or have other metrics that check for that during the match, and if the server deems that the killer was just screwing around, then don't save chase data for that match.
They'd also have to check if the chase was won or lost.
For example, a survivor having a short average chase time, but also a very high percentage of chases won, that implies they're very efficient at disappearing from the killer. So despite that low average chase time, the survivor is very successful at being chased.
Again - the first step is just collecting all the match data.
Not collecting any data means you literally cannot make an MMR system.You’re still assuming that collecting more variables automatically makes the system better. That isn’t really the issue. The problem is whether those variables actually measure skill.
Even across hundreds of matches, chase time doesn’t isolate survivor skill. Chase length is heavily influenced by killer mistakes, map RNG, tile spawns, teammate interference, and killer power. Those factors don’t disappear with more data, they stay baked into the metric. So the system ends up measuring a mix of survivor behavior, killer performance, and map conditions rather than the survivor’s actual skill.
And the incentive problem is still there. The moment you attach rating value to a metric like chase time, or any other metric players will optimize around it.
The problem with “just add a check for it” is that the system still can’t know why something happened, it only sees actions, not intent. A killer not swinging could be friendly, mindgaming, waiting for a lunge, or playing around a power cooldown. Those situations can look identical in the data.
The more checks you add trying to interpret those situations, the more assumptions and edge cases you introduce. At some point the system becomes overly complex and still can’t reliably tell what actually happened in the match.
And also you must understand Hours played doesn’t determine skill, not even mechanical skill. After a certain point, hours just measure time spent, not improvement.
There are players with thousands of hours who are still completely average because they’ve spent that time reinforcing the same bad habits. Meanwhile others with far fewer hours surpass them because they actually learn, adapt, and refine their gameplay.
Time played measures experience, not competence. So when you see them going against you pat yourself on the back dont get discouraged and think the match making system is broken.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062782#Comment_4062782
You are creating a false dichotomy. You assume the system must either be a simple binary 1/0 (escaped/died) or a one-dimensional "chase timer." In modern software architecture, that is not how skill-based matchmaking works.
A professional MMR system uses weighted multi-variable analysis.
If a Survivor runs the Killer for 3 minutes (chase metric), completes 2 generators (objective metric), and saves 2 teammates (altruism metric) but dies at the end, a competent algorithm doesn't just say "0/1 - Fail". It weighs those high-value inputs against the outcome. Currently, the system rewards a player who hides in a locker for 10 minutes and sneaks out the hatch, while punishing the player who actually did all the work. That is a bad incentive, and it's exactly what we have now.
As for your "explloiting the metric" argument:
The "Pallet Pre-dropping" point: A weighted system can easily account for this. If a survivor pre-drops 10 pallets in a 60-second chase, the "resource efficiency" variable would be low, balancing their MMR gain.
Killer Design (Nurse/Blight): This is exactly why we need granular data. The system should know that a 30-second chase against a P100 Nurse is statistically more valuable than a 60-second chase against a Trapper.
The objective of the game is indeed to escape, but the skill required to reach that objective is what the MMR is supposed to measure. Right now, the system only measures the result, not the skill. If you think a system that can't tell the difference between a mechanical master who sacrificed himself and a beginner who hid the whole match is "working," then you are settling for a massive failure in data granularity.
Your logic is self-contradictory. You admit that a player can "run the killer for four generators" and still claim that measuring that skill would be "unreliable".From a technical standpoint, if one player is occupying the Killer for the time it takes to complete 80% of the primary objective, that player is the primary driver of the win condition. In any balanced system, that should be rewarded.
The "bad incentives" argument also fails for two reasons:
Reality check: Survivors are already pre-dropping pallets constantly in the current meta. Acting like a better MMR system would suddenly "break" the game with pre-drops ignores the fact that it's already a standard low-skill tactic.
Weighted Math: A well-designed system would simply treat "Time in Chase" as one of many variables. It wouldn't mean you "farm" MMR just by running around; it means that if you perform the hardest mechanical task in the game (looping) which allows your team to finish the main objective (generators), the system acknowledges your skill.
Currently, the binary 1/0 system treats a mechanical master who carried the team but died at the end exactly the same as a beginner who did nothing. That is the real failure in data granularity. If you are good at looping, your MMR should reflect that skill slightly—not as a "free win," but as a recognition of your mechanical input into the match outcome.
It’s not about "farming long chases"; it's about the system finally opening its eyes to what is actually happening during the trial instead of just looking at the exit gate.
You’re assuming more data automatically means a better ranking system. It doesn’t. The real issue is signal quality.
Metrics like chase time, generators completed, or saves are extremely context dependent. A 3 minute chase might mean the survivor played well, or it might mean the killer misplayed, the map spawned strong tiles, or teammates interfered. The system can’t reliably distinguish those causes, so those metrics measure activity, not skill.
That’s why most competitive MMR systems rely heavily on outcomes. Outcomes compress all of that context into a single reliable signal: did the player’s decisions actually lead to winning or losing.
The moment you start rewarding intermediate metrics like chase duration, players will optimize for those metrics instead of the objective. That’s a well-known design problem called metric gaming. At that point the system stops measuring skill and starts measuring who can exploit the metric best.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062763#Comment_4062763
People often think the devs ignore the community, but a big part of the problem is the amount of noise compared to the small amount of solid, well-supported feedback that actually gets provided.
I get that, but the problem is data only gives you half. Humans are emotional, and games can be frustrating. For every nine matches someone wins and says nothing about, they come here to complain about the one they lost while blaming it on everything but themselves. It's very hard with this community to sort out genuine issues from whining, but you have things that have been making many, many people feel bad—sometimes for years—and nothing gets done. And that's partially the community's fault, because any little proposed change blows way out of proportion, especially with CCs dooming and glooming immediately. This community resists every and all change despite constant complaints about the stale meta. But it's more BHVR's fault for lacking a spine.
And as you said, they have data. They don't need my videos. They know if babies are being dumped into the deep end. I'm not saying matchmaking is broken in that it's doing something it's not supposed to, I'm saying it's a bad system that prioritizes speed and engagement over quality. This isn't groundbreaking info. Search the forums. The same views get repeated over and over in regards to the matchmaking, and it's one of the only regular topics that lacks role-based bias.
Unless that survivor’s MMR is astronomically high, it’s not going to average out to a high-MMR killer. Proving or even noticing something like that would be extremely difficult.
Without a visible ranking system, it's impossible. What you have right now is a whole bunch of people assuming their MMRs, which is useless.
I'm not saying matchmaking is broken in that it's doing something it's not supposed to
You said that match making is putting highly skilled killers against Noob teams. That is saying match making is doing something its not supposed to.
I'm not saying matchmaking is broken in that it's doing something it's not supposed to, I'm saying it's a bad system that prioritizes speed and engagement over quality. This isn't groundbreaking info. Search the forums. The same views get repeated over and over in regards to the matchmaking, and it's one of the only regular topics that lacks role-based bias.
But where’s the data? This goes back to what I said earlier about flawed popular opinions being driven by emotion.
The idea that the matchmaking topic isnt role biased doesn’t really make sense when everyone is in the same system. Survivors and killers both go through it.
Do you think matchmaking somehow gets a pass when neither side does? Everyone complains about it, just like players complain about survivor or killer whenever they lose.
There will always be something people blame when a match doesn’t go their way, even when the data doesn’t support it. A lot of the time it just comes down to ego.
People go down these rabbit holes trying to force an explanation that justifies the loss, digging deeper and deeper until it feels like it makes sense. In reality, it’s just biased perception.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062697#Comment_4062697
I can explain that very easily, and your example actually proves the exact point of my original post.
You asked why your 700-hour friend plays awfully but still survives more matches than you. The answer is simple: because DbD's matchmaking algorithm is a primitive, binary boolean. It only checks if (escaped == true).
If you, as a 7200-hour veteran, take the Killer on a 3-minute chase, loop perfectly, and sacrifice yourself on the hook so your team can open the gates, the system punishes you. It lowers your hidden rating. Meanwhile, if your 700-hour friend hides in lockers, avoids the Killer, and sneaks out the exit gate while you die, the algorithm rewards them. The system literally thinks your awful friend is the better player.
That is the exact "massive logic error" I am talking about. The code doesn't track chase time, altruism, or mechanical skill. It only tracks the 1/0 outcome of escaping. Your friend has inflated stats precisely because the architecture is broken and data-blind.
And regarding your first question: nobody is saying 1 hour equals exactly 1 MMR point. But in data analysis, playtime is a powerful heuristic. At 7,200 hours, your muscle memory and map knowledge are vastly superior to a 700-hour player. The reason we are forced to use hours to measure lobby fairness is because BHVR's actual hidden score is completely corrupted by the exact phenomenon you just described with your friend.
Mechanical skill alone doesn’t determine whether you win or escape. It’s only one part of the game. You can be great at looping, but if you run the killer for four generators and still die consistently, your MMR will drop. That isn’t a matchmaking problem that’s the outcome of the choices being made in the match.
The system can only measure results. If someone repeatedly takes long chases knowing they’re likely to die at the end, the system will register those deaths. That’s no different than a killer intentionally letting survivors escape to lower or maintain their MMR.
This is also why using chase time to calculate MMR wouldn’t make much sense. The objective for survivors isn’t to stay in chase as long as possible, it’s to complete generators and escape. A player could extend a chase for two minutes by pre dropping every pallet on the map, but that often hurts the team by burning through resources and leaving the rest of the map unsafe later.
It would also create bad incentives. If chase time affected MMR, survivors would start optimizing for long chases instead of good decision-making. Players would force chases, pre-drop pallets constantly, and ignore stealth or generator pressure just to inflate their chase time.
It also ignores killer design. Some killers are built to end chases quickly, like The Nurse or The Blight. Survivors would look “worse” in the system simply because they faced killers designed to secure fast downs.
At the end of the day, survivor gameplay isn’t just about chase skill. Good survivors balance stealth, generator efficiency, positioning, teamwork, and knowing when to disengage. Chase time only measures one piece of that, which is why using it as a MMR metric would be unreliable.
If chase time determined MMR, the optimal way to climb wouldn’t be winning or escaping it would be farming long chases. The moment a ranking system rewards something other than the objective of the game, it stops measuring skill and starts measuring who can exploit the metric the best.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062711#Comment_4062711
I know everyone in this forum loves to think that they're at the tippity top of MMR and are The Greatest Player that Ever Lived (while struggling every match. I'm still trying to figure that one out) but I never said I was upper MMR. I can't presume something like that without being able to see it, and to see everyone elses so I can compare notes. What I do know is I'm not at the level of someone with 50 hours and, thus, shouldn't ever see them in my matches for any reason at all. I remember being a brand new killer and getting player's with thousands of hours though. I remember visible Pretiges in lobby and seeing all p100s, not even understanding what it meant, but knowing it didnt look right. It absolutely happens. You can just look at people's hours.
The bots were endgame abandons, not DCs. I'm not a streamer. Regular, casual players don't record all their matches. All you have is people's words. Take it or leave it. Not sure what I'd gain in twisting the truth. I'm just asking for appropriate matching because pity isn't what I want to feel.
I have a ton of screenshots of people's low hours but I don't have them on my phone. I can literally take 10 a day if you'd like.
You're last statement is exactly why I think the "SWF is OP" argument is bs. If a high MMR player links up with 3 mids and they get a high MMR killer, they have a good chance of losing. It really should average out to a mid killer. I can only hope the MMR rework does something about these issues. Matches shouldn't be decided in the lobby.
I’m not saying you’re lying, I want to make that as clear as possible. But when you claim that a really important system the game is built on is broken, you have to understand the implications of that claim. It requires much more than hearsay and screenshots of emblems or scores.
If what you’re saying is true, the best thing to do would be to document it properly. You said yourself that you can take around ten screenshots a day, so it shouldn’t be hard to schedule a stream and show exactly what you’re talking about.
Then you could link that stream here on the forums so people, including the developers, can actually see the matches. If the issue is real, the games should clearly show obvious inconsistencies.
Because we all know what brand-new survivors look like in gameplay.
The community really needs to learn to respect data and understand how important it is for meaningful change. People often think the devs ignore the community, but a big part of the problem is the amount of noise compared to the small amount of solid, well-supported feedback that actually gets provided.
So many people complain and tell stories about their experiences, but they rarely provide the proper data needed for those claims to be taken seriously.
And the longer that data isn’t presented, the more the existing data that contradicts those claims becomes the stronger and more reliable conclusion.
You're last statement is exactly why I think the "SWF is OP" argument is bs. If a high MMR player links up with 3 mids and they get a high MMR killer, they have a good chance of losing. It really should average out to a mid killer
Unless that survivor’s MMR is astronomically high, it’s not going to average out to a high-MMR killer. Proving or even noticing something like that would be extremely difficult.
Average players aren’t bad players, and an average killer can still have a strong game and stomp other average survivors, which can make them look like a high-MMR killer.
Consistency is one of the biggest factors when climbing in any ranking system. Everyone has good games.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062698#Comment_4062698
I didn't say a single thing about Prestige or low level perks. The first two show the scores from an abysmal stomp of very bad players. Everyone getting 10kish points with me not playing dirty is horrendous. They had zero idea how to deal with me. And four players that are bad with no banners or badges implies new players. I didn't know how to equip those when I was new either. I was maybe backfill in those lobbies, but this simply should not be allowed to happen. And it happens quite a bit. It's not fair to these people.
I've had players that were clearly new being protected by the friends who dragged them there. I do the same thing with new friends. You tell them to hide, sit on gens with them, take the aggro, body block for them. No one was helping these baby Fengs. And even if this was the case, it still shouldn't be happening. A player with 10 hours shouldn't go against one with thousands. They're worse than a bot or a dead player, theyre actually a detriment to the team. It's a guaranteed loss.
You realize I can see many of these people's hours too, right? Everyday I get people with a couple hundred hours or less. There are cross progression accounts, but it's easy to spot an actual baby in-game. Hours don't equate to skill, but 100 hours is not enough to go against an experienced player I'm such an info-heavy game, especially as survivor.
It's pretty obvious to me that the game prioritizes speed over accuracy. I'd also believe it gives you these easy matches sometimes as an ego boost. My last match last night was against a Singularity that clearly had zero idea how to play the killer. They got two hooks. I don't personally want that ego boost, I just feel bad for these people, but considering how many people in this community cry and blame the game as soon as they lose a match, I'm sure many do want everything for free.
A lot of the frustration in this community comes from ego. When players lose, especially in a game where both sides can taunt each other, people vent and blame mechanics instead of the loss itself.
We actually do agree on this, but there are also issues in a constantly changing, live service game that need addressing. The game is not perfect, and many matches are decided by matchmaking and RNG before you ever load in. The devs made an effort to address pain points last year, clearly recognizing an issue, but sadly lacked the backbone to implement a single idea. Any effort at meaningful changes gets shutdown by outcry from a biased and jaded community. This is why so many people in this community are so disgruntled. Nothing meaningful gets changed, the stale meta persists, toxicity is rampant, and prioritizing efficiency over fun is making for a grim experience.
The first two show the scores from an abysmal stomp of very bad players. Everyone getting 10kish points with me not playing dirty is horrendous. They had zero idea how to deal with me. And four players that are bad with no banners or badges implies new players. I didn't know how to equip those when I was new either. I was maybe backfill in those lobbies, but this simply should not be allowed to happen. And it happens quite a bit. It's not fair to these people.
So you’re using cherry picked screenshots of scoreboards, emblems, and title cards, then filling in the missing piece — the actual gameplay, with your own explanation to claim that the MMR system is throwing high-MMR killers at new players?
Not to mention that in the screenshots you posted, the low scores include a bot in the match. In the one where there isn’t, the scores are actually decent, with the only low one looking like an obvious friend who’s probably new to the game.
If you're making a claim this big, it needs actual documented gameplay showing a clear pattern. Screenshots alone don’t prove anything.
The hours argument is also weak. It’s basically hearsay. There’s no real data there for anyone to examine and confirm the pattern you’re describing. There’s no proof that you’re consistently going against full teams of brand new players where their hours actually reflect that.
What makes the claim even more questionable is that you can go on Twitch right now and watch killer streams for hours. If matchmaking was regularly throwing high MMR killers into lobbies of brand-new survivors, you would see it at least occasionally. But you don’t. It essentially never happens. And when it does look like there’s a weak link, it’s usually obvious that the player is a friend who got pulled into the lobby.
I've had players that were clearly new being protected by the friends who dragged them there. I do the same thing with new friends. You tell them to hide, sit on gens with them, take the aggro, body block for them. No one was helping these baby Fengs. And even if this was the case, it still shouldn't be happening
Most SBMM systems work like this in PvP games. If you queue with a newer player, the system isn’t going to place you in matches against beginners. The match will usually be based on the higher MMR player instead.
I also want to add that players bringing new friends into their games could help explain why solo queue has a higher overall escape rate than other group settings.
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@sentience said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062564#Comment_4062564
Can you give an example where his power guarantees a down (basekit)? I don’t really see the point about the pallet side, but I guess that has nothing to do with Ghoul in general. No one really cares as long as the counterplay works, except in this case, how is an average player even supposed to know that? If you compare Wesker and Ghoul in terms of counterplay, you basically need a PhD to deal with Ghoul.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062628#Comment_4062628
I think one of the problems is that there are no explanations or tutorials on how to counter this killer. Who would have thought that vaulting into the killer is the right play? It’s counterintuitive, and the only way to know this is to watch content creators or play Ghoul daily.
Also worth mentioning is that Ghoul is beyond bugged compared to others. The animation bug is tied to Ghoul’s ping, to skip the animation on the first leap, you need to have less than 40 ms, but this applies only to the first leap. You can still skip the animation no matter what ping you have if you intentionally miss while being airborne. In the video below, you might notice that I am no longer flying with leaps but rather sliding on the ground. That means you are leaping without animation from the survivors’ POV.
https://youtu.be/VVQ5oNS3CBw?si=-2jb1gzi5mOGTzx5
Surprisingly, there is still counterplay to this, and it’s the sound cue that tells you when Ghoul cancels his power, except this sound might not play for whatever reason (I’ve experienced this myself). There are extremely rare cases where the cancellation sound just doesn’t play (from the survivors’ POV). It means you can die just because… the game “felt” like it.
Ooooh, so that’s why that slide animation happens. I was watching a streamer who was getting it consistently and I was wondering how in the hell they were doing it, but it makes sense now.
As far as ping goes, I figured the core cause of the animation bugs people talk about might be ping related. I mentioned that in another post.
Still though, that Gravity slide animation is so satisfying when it happens 😮💨
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062627#Comment_4062627
I don't think the developers care. They know how their system works (I hope). These complaints about matchmaking are a regular thing here.
I don't record my matches but I sometimes take screenshots. Do these look like players I should have been matched with from these scores?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PJ8NVGIDKNCC/19cc439621929-screenshoturl.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UP0MY8AAPDGY/screenshot-2819-29.jpeg
How about default Feng who was absolutely terrible and hasn't even figured out how to put on perks yet:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/00CZ5EC6BMFE/19afc62006592-screenshoturl.jpg
This default Feng managed two perks!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IWR3MTMWE94O/19bec1ab24618-screenshoturl.jpg
These people don't have cosmetics. They don't have badges and banners. Many have double-digit hours. I'm not just getting bad players regularly, I'm getting impossibly bad ones. Ones that should be below the soft cap still. Meanwhile, me, average skill, playing chill, and giving hatch:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WK1DW0D8HO5L/screenshot-20260307-215840.jpg
If this is "working as intended" then this is EBMM not SBMM.
If you like DBD, you play it. If you don’t, you stop.
I currently don't enjoy survivor. I still play it. Reasons for continuing are complex and multi faceted. There's money wasted, time sink, addiction, stubbornness, etc. Lots of people playing this game are unhappy. Just look around you. Same angry people complaining about the same stuff everyday.
Let’s actually break down what these screenshots show, because they’re not proving what you think they are.
First, prestige and “baby perks” are not indicators of MMR. I’ve gone on long killer winstreaks and still faced teams with low prestige and basic perks that ended up being extremely sweaty. Prestige reflects time spent or bloodpoints invested, not skill, and perks simply reflect what someone has unlocked or chosen to run. Neither of those things are used to determine matchmaking rating.
Your third screenshot is also easily explained by a very common situation: a SWF group queueing with a newer friend. That happens constantly. It would also explain why nobody disconnected. The other screenshots could be the exact same situation. If I took screenshots every time I loaded into a lobby that looked like that, I could make the exact same claim you're making, but once the match actually plays out, those games are often far sweatier than the lobby suggests.
The bigger issue here is the evidence you’re using. Screenshots of a few scoreboards are not meaningful proof that matchmaking is broken. That’s a huge claim, and the evidence you’re presenting is extremely weak. If you want to argue that the MMR system consistently puts you in the wrong bracket, then the standard of proof should be much higher than cherry-picked lobby screenshots. You’d need documented gameplay across many matches showing a consistent pattern.
I currently don't enjoy survivor. I still play it. Reasons for continuing are complex and multi faceted. There's money wasted, time sink, addiction, stubbornness, etc. Lots of people playing this game are unhappy. Just look around you. Same angry people complaining about the same stuff everyday.
This goes back to what I said earlier about ego. A lot of the frustration in this community comes from ego. When players lose, especially in a game where both sides can taunt each other, people vent and blame mechanics instead of the loss itself.
If the frustrations those angry players complain about were truly valid balance issues and not just wounded egos, they would stop spending money on and playing a game they claim to dislike.
The truth is that much of the DBD community has an “us vs. them” mentality, and when “them” wins, waves of frustration hit hard. The taunting that happens in matches only makes it worse.
That’s why logic often doesn’t help in those discussions, because the real issue isn’t the mechanic. It’s a bruised ego.
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@GhostRider1518 said:
Let's talk about the absolute state of "Skill-Based Matchmaking" in this game, because from a technical and coding perspective, it's an absolute joke.
I recently checked my official stats on the DbD tracker before BHVR conveniently decided to hide the detailed kill rates. I have around 900 hours total (roughly 700h on Killer). My kill rate was hovering right around 60%. I'm not a pro, I'm not a sweat, I'm just a perfectly average, statistically balanced player.
So, how does the sophisticated, highly-tuned algorithm reward this balance?Yesterday, I was thrown into a lobby against a SWF team with a combined total of 11,000 hours (4000h, 3100h, 2500h, 1400h). And this isn't a rare anomaly. I regularly get matched against individual players boasting 2k, 4.5k, 6.5k, and even 7k hours.
Let's be real: MMR simply doesn't work. I know playtime hours aren't a flawless metric—you can easily inflate them just by being AFK in the menus. But right now, hours are the only tangible indicator we have left that even remotely reflects actual skill. What else are we supposed to look at? Grades? They mean nothing. Prestige levels? They're hidden in the lobby anyway, and with the current bloodpoint economy, prestige is just a grinding simulator, not a skill check. MMR is completely hidden and god knows how it calculates anything. So, hours are literally all we have to go by.
Imagine this scenario in Counter-Strike. A team with a combined total of maybe 2k hours going up against an opponent team with 11k hours. It’s completely impossible. It’s unthinkable in any serious competitive environment, and the community would burn the servers down over a logic error that severe. But in DbD? It's just a Tuesday.
From a programming standpoint, this isn't an MMR system. This is a massive logic error wrapped in spaghetti code. The entire matchmaking logic seems to boil down to:
if (queue_time > 30_seconds) { dump_player_into_closest_lobby_and_pray(); }It’s obvious what's happening. The "softcap" for MMR is set incredibly low. The moment you cross a certain threshold (which apparently takes just a few hundred hours on a specific role), the system tags you as a "veteran" and throws you into the same exact variable bucket as people who haven't seen sunlight since 2016. The game desperately needs to fill lobbies for 10k-hour sweat squads so they don't cry about queue times, and average players are being used as free bloodpoints to patch up the holes in BHVR's failing infrastructure.
And the cherry on top? When a 4000h survivor drops a "noob" in the endgame chat after beating a killer with a fraction of their playtime. It’s like a script kiddie running a pre-made exploit and calling himself a master hacker.
No wonder they stripped the official stat tracker of detailed kill rates. If players could actually see their granular data, the illusion of a functioning MMR would shatter completely. We don't need more chapter releases or cosmetic drops right now. We need an "Operation Health" to rewrite this outdated backend from scratch.
Fix the math, BHVR. Because right now, your variables are completely out of bounds.
How do hours played equate to your MMR bracket? I know people who have played a game for years and are still very average in terms of skill level.
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@EntityNea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060978#Comment_4060978
The problem is that he has animation glitches so that the survivors can't see whether he's using his powers or not.
The counter play is meant to be that you look at his stance. If he's trying to use his power, you don't drop the pallet. Otherwise, you drop the pallet.
But since the animations are bugged, the survivors often have no way to know what he's doing. So that breaks the counterplay.
^ That is the intended counter play, which is broken. You were never meant to be able to vault back against him - despite what their patch notes are claiming, BHVR have contradicted themselves with the vault back.
They tried to remove the vault back previously by simply increasing the Ghoul's hitbox after he did the vault, but the result was that he could hit survivors around corners, and the funny part is that they could still vault back through the Ghoul.
So, it's just a matter of BHVR creating a lot of bugs when developing him, and not knowing how to fix it.The animation bug you’re referring to is supposedly called the “Armint” tech that a YouTuber posted about. Me and some buddies on Discord tried to reproduce it in customs using the instructions from the video, but we couldn’t get it to happen.
I’m not sure if it’s some rare animation issue or something else, but in my games, especially after they patched the vault glitch that bugged his animations, it’s always worked as intended.
Either way, it should still be fixed if it does happen, even if it’s rare.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062605#Comment_4062605
So you're saying matchmaking is perfect, even when I get fresh installs on killers I have 70-80% KRs with, right after getting a team of super coordinated juicers? Or when I get a 10k hour Blight and those previous baby survivors are now my teammates? That makes sense to you? You might actually be the only person I've seen with full faith in this system. I guess the MMR rework that's supposed to happen soon is also happening for no reason, since it's perfect. A system based solely on escapes and kills is not nuanced enough to be accurate.
I believe people should take responsibility for thier losses more, particularly killers, since you're fully self sufficient, but some things are out of your hands. RNG plays into the matches a lot. If I land a team of Exhaustion prerunners on Badham as Dredge with the awful locker spawns I'm pretty much screwed. As survivor, especially soloq, matchmaking lapses can take the game out of your hands. There's nothing you can do if you land three baby teammates and a highly skilled killer.
I'm not talking about the people who come here to cry. I don't take the I-quits seriously because I see those same people playing again a few weeks later. I'm talking about actual friends, people I know, that will not touch the role. I have others that will only play with friends because it's awful without company. I have some that i haven't seen log on to this game in 6 or more months because they just quietly walked away. This game hemorrhages players, but it ropes in new ones with IPs and being free to play on console. That's how it sustains itself. There's always new meat for the grinder when others finally burn out.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that I said matchmaking was perfect. I never said that. I just believe it’s working as intended.
The examples you’re giving have never happened to me, and I’ve also never seen streamers who play killer for hours experience this either.
I’m not saying you’re lying, but a claim that big needs to be documented and posted here on the forums so the developers can actually see it.
Until then, it’s kind of like saying you saw bambi jump over the moon.
There's nothing you can do if you land three baby teammates and a highly skilled killer.
Lol I’ve never seen anything like that, a highly skilled killer going against baby survivors. All my Blight games feel like championship matches. Even the streamers I watch who play killer for hours never seem to get that kind of luxury. Are you sure they’re as good as you think they are?
As for the game being alive just because it’s free-to-play, I’m sure that plays a role, but it mostly comes down to whether people actually like the game or not. If you like DBD, you play it. If you don’t, you stop.
If most people truly didn’t enjoy the game, it would’ve died years ago.
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062166#Comment_4062166
that would kill the game. you cannot buff every killer into nurse and blight level. low tier killers need buffs and nurse and blight need nerfs to close the gap between high and low tiers. if you just brainlessly gigabuff every killer below A tier, then kill rates will skyrocket to the point where no one will be happy. killer players will get tired of getting guaranteed 4k’s and survivors will get tired of going against overtuned killer after overtuned killer.
also calling nurse and blight “perfectly viable killers” is outrageous. they are both overtuned and are in desperate needs of nerfs. the fact that someone can go on a near 2000 win streak as blight twice with ease is enough proof that he’s busted beyond belief.
How do you expect to be taken seriously and get these nerfs from the devs when you keep repeating the same points that have already been shown to be wrong?
Is this some kind of psychology tactic where if enough people complain about valuable killers, the devs will eventually stop making killers valuable? Or so unreliable killers can stay unreliable?
Or is it meant to shift attention away from the real question, why killers like Nurse and Blight are considered valuable in the first place while others, like Legion, aren’t?
I honestly don’t get it.
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@azaxydbd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062166#Comment_4062166
there is massive diff between playable and being broken, S tiers means broken tier.
Tiers have nothing to do with whether something is broken or not. They’re not rankings based on how unbalanced something is, they’re rankings based on how valuable something is.
S-tier simply means it provides the most value compared to the other options.
Blight and Nurse are two of the most valuable killers in the game, but that doesn’t automatically make them broken. If Blight and Nurse were removed, another killer already in the game would simply take their place at the top.
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@sentience said:
Since you were desperately asking how to counterplay this, here you go.
The first video is the most realistic scenario, where you have a bit of distance, and it’s also the situation in your favor, since you can’t deny that most Ghouls would go for the vault. Otherwise, it becomes a pure mind game, and it’s STILL not a 100% death.
The second scenario: in this case, you have to visually time when he cancels his power. Still not a 100% death.
The third video is the killer’s POV for the first clip, so you don’t think my friend was biased in my favorAnother reminder for you: Xenomorph, Huntress, Dracula, Nurse, Executioner, and Artist will kill you in the exact same scenarios and conditions you provided for Ghoul. This shows that cherry-picking for your arguments isn't reliable way to prove your point
It’s actually pointless. You can’t convince or teach someone who refuses to engage with or learn something because their emotions about it are too strong. A lot of people in the community are like that.
The devs don’t take that kind of feedback seriously. They created the killer and are fully aware of his counterplay. That’s why they haven’t taken complaints like this seriously and have kept him largely the same.
Your post was beautifully articulated, I applaud it. I will add that there were more options in that situation; that wasn’t the only counter available.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062292#Comment_4062292
Also, why is it that many high-level SWFs who go on win streaks end up having those streaks broken by another well-known high-level killer player? These players are all competing within an extremely small bracket at high MMR. Statistically, they’re almost invisible compared to the overall player base, even at high MMR.
This shows a remarkable faith in a matchmaking system that is almost universally considered terrible amongst the community. If the uppermost MMR players were actually put against one another regularly, then logically, long streaks should be impossible. But it's only when one of these winstreakers finally gets a proper opponent that their streak gets broken. They almost certainly had a wide variety of MMR levels thrown into their winstreak meat grinder before they got there.
Using popular opinion to strengthen an argument that is logically flawed doesn’t actually make it stronger. The community has already shown that emotion often outweighs logic and reality when it comes to balance discussions.
What you’re not understanding is that the killers or survivors going on these extreme win streaks are outliers within their own bracket. These are high MMR players who are better than the majority of players even at that level, the best of the best, the top 0.1% of that bracket.
Because of that, matchmaking often can’t find them proper opponents. That’s why these pros can go on such long streaks before eventually running into another well-known high level player who finally ends it.
The public data we do have on high MMR kill rates and escape rates already reflects this.
That’s one of the reasons you can’t use these players as examples for why something should be nerfed. The gap they create is mostly a result of skill, not the mechanic itself.
When players are performing at that level, the difference they create in matches is far more about player ability than balance.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062469#Comment_4062469
The killer didn’t even need to outplay you, the mechanic already did.
That's exactly my issue, I am happy you finally understand :)
Player (Ghoul) doesn't need to do anything for it…If the mechanic beats you without the killer doing anything, that’s called a self inflicted outplay.