top500spiderman
top500spiderman
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062454#Comment_4062454
Ghoul can’t grab on reaction unless you drop the pallet too early like you did in the clip.
You realize there would be no fatigue? I DIDN'T USE POWER YET
So doing it later does nothing, outcome is vault for free down :)I can’t make you learn it — you have to want to.
I can't learn something that doesn't work.. This can be used on shorter loops, definetly not the one in clip. You can't greed such long loop, that's like trying to greed shack pallet: you die
But I wouldn’t wait around for a nerf just because you don’t feel like figuring it out.
Well, I will just wait for next game… That worked so far well for me, Ghouls are not happy about it, so I guess that means counterplay of "go next" works very well
You realize there would be no fatigue? I DIDN'T USE POWER YET
So doing it later does nothing, outcome is vault for free down :)
He was sitting behind the pallets hitbox in his power. you could have just ran around and vaulted. You dropped it way to early.
I can't learn something that doesn't work..
It works its just a skill issue, me and many other have no issues countering ghoul.
Well, I will just wait for next game… That worked so far well for me, Ghouls are not happy about it
DC’ing because you can’t counter a basic mechanic right after posting a clip that shows the misplay is wild 😭. The killer didn’t even need to outplay you, the mechanic already did.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062425#Comment_4062425
I actually went into full depth explaining why your clip makes no sense and shows none of the counterplay against Ghoul.
Oh, yeah the infamous cancelfake… Mythical tech of ghoul
You really posted a clip of yourself standing on the opposite side of a pallet from a Ghoul while he’s in his power…
I know you are beginning in dbd, but when Ghoul walks to a pallet, he has secret "tech" of vaulting with his first dash. Which he can easily cancel, or M1 however he likes. I know, very advanced, but you can get there.
Which means on long loops, it doesn't matter what you do, if he doesn't miss play, you are dead :)You pretty much proved it yourself that it was a skill issue.
Well, I don't know how to play against Ghoul, but at least I am able to watch a short clip correctly :D
Especially when it seems like you don’t even care if you can counter it.
Oh, right. That's why I wasted my time in custom trying his limits. That makes sense.
Would be nice if there was a valid counterplay, but there is none…I know you are beginning in dbd, but when Ghoul walks to a pallet, he has secret "tech" of vaulting with his first dash. Which he can easily cancel, or M1 however he likes
Which you can easily counter aswell 😂
Well, I don't know how to play against Ghoul, but at least I am able to watch a short clip correctly :D
At least you admitted it thats step 1. Step 2 is being willing to learn something outside of shift + S
Oh, right. That's why I wasted my time in custom trying his limits.
You went in customs to give yourself a excuse to why you cant counter him
Would be nice if there was a valid counterplay, but there is none…
Il just copy and paste the help i gave you.
if Ghoul pulls his power at a pallet, you keep running or double back for a pallet stun. Ghoul can’t grab on reaction unless you drop the pallet too early like you did in the clip.
In order for Ghoul to grab you, he can’t get stunned by the pallet. So he either has to commit and assume you won’t drop it, or use his power outside of the pallet’s stun radius. That’s the entire reason he has to guess — it’s not on reaction.
Nobody just sits at a pallet across from Ghoul like you did in the video
I already explained the counterplay. I can’t make you learn it — you have to want to. But I wouldn’t wait around for a nerf just because you don’t feel like figuring it out. 😂
That clip is like uploading a clip of you trying to loop a knight minion to prove he cant be countered lmao.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062422#Comment_4062422
I reread your post just now and actually, I was wrong. I misread it to mean that you had argued it affects Survivors across the board. But upon reflection, I don't think you had much of a point toward the argument I was making at all.
The reason I brought up pro players is that a nearly 2k win streak, which you use in your example, is extreme and most definitely backed by unchecked playstyles like tunneling. If it's very difficult to beat in average MMR and very difficult to beat at top MMR, then that illustrates a very clear problem that affects everyone.
But upon reflection, I don't think you had much of a point toward the argument I was making at all.
If it really didn’t apply, explaining why would’ve been simple.
The reason I brought up pro players is that a nearly 2k win streak, which you use in your example, is extreme and most definitely backed by unchecked playstyles like tunneling
You’re only saying it doesn’t apply so you can ignore the points made and keep using the 2k Blight streak example.
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@Fixthisgamebad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/464929/please-remove-the-unhook-notification
the fact 30 people upvoted shows how slow and biased these forms are. how dose such a bad take have so many upvotes, the game is already so ez as survivor why do you need more benififts and buffs, just learn the game.
Upvotes are kind of like a social experiment. They show the angle players tend to come from at a logical standpoint, and it’s good information for the devs to learn more about the community.
Not just in terms of changes for the game, but also to better investigate why seemingly flawed popular opinions and takes get pushed so hard within the community. Upvotes help reveal that during discussions on the forums.
All players really do when they upvote clearly flawed takes, especially when the flaws have already been highlighted — is show the devs that emotion is often the dominating factor in the community when it comes to change. It ends up overpowering logic.
And the more players repeat this on the forums, upvoting flawed takes while dismissing or hand-waving logical reasoning — the more developers will learn to be cautious about treating popular opinion as reliable feedback.
But players don’t see this. They think they’re effectively winning the battle through sheer numbers, when in reality they’re just telling on themselves. To them, more upvotes means the take makes more sense, but it doesn’t. That’s exactly why so many games have been damaged by developers who bend to that kind of feedback. That is why i salute the devs.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062293#Comment_4062293
Ah, not going back to you talking about the clip with completely wrong assumption. "Issue is you drop early", lol
Not really early when killer can M1 you :DThen trying to came up with new tech of cancelfake, noone else ever talked about, just to try make your comments legit.
I actually went into full depth explaining why your clip makes no sense and shows none of the counterplay against Ghoul. But you ignored it, because you can’t counter something you don’t understand — or didn’t even know existed.
Especially when it seems like you don’t even care if you can counter it. Your clip made it pretty clear you just want to pre-drop pallets and feel untouchable while you run away in a straight line like a lot of survivors do. 😂
Before you even learn how to counter Ghoul, you should probably learn how he actually works. Learn his different techs. You really posted a clip of yourself standing on the opposite side of a pallet from a Ghoul while he’s in his power… just to prove you don’t know how to time a pallet drop against him.
At this point there’s not much left to say. You pretty much proved it yourself that it was a skill issue.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062292#Comment_4062292
Pro players are the ones we have evidence for. I don't think they're the only ones.
As far as tunneling goes, your argument just explained why it should be examined. Speaking ideally of course.
Pro players are the ones we have evidence for. I don't think they're the only ones.
They are the only ones. The data shows that killers playing at that level are an extremely small group. They’re statistically almost invisible, even within the MMR bracket they’re placed in.
This isn’t a matter of opinion or what someone might think, it’s supported by the data.
As far as tunneling goes, your argument just explained why it should be examined. Speaking ideally of course.
If you can’t explain how my argument proves your point, then it doesn’t
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062257#Comment_4062257
Nobody just sits at a pallet across from Ghoul like you did in the video unless he leaped
Yeah, I think I know where is the issue. You failed to notice I didn't leap there… I just pulled my power when we got to the pallet.
Sure, it works if Ghoul dashed to you, because he will enter cooldown, but you are completely wrong on this one. You could see I have all tokens ready.Also in situation, where he did dash there, it's better to just drop pallet anyway as soon you see he canceled the power. Why would I greed to be forced into 50/50 later when he will have power ready?
You do realize there’s data the devs have that they haven’t shared with us, right?
Ok, what data could that be? Based on what data can you actually estimate power level of the killer?
Players do it basically on personal experience, how would you do it if you only have access to outcomes of matches?We have seen them talk about kill rates so many times related to their balancing, but now they definetly started to use something else… Source: "trust me bro"
And you’re asking me if I’m new?
It definetly seems like you are, or just didn't pay attention to patch notes. Nothing wrong with that.
It definetly seems like you are, or just didn't pay attention to patch notes. Nothing wrong with that.
😂 I think it’s pretty obvious who’s new, going by the clip you sent. Not to mention how you just segmented a piece of my explanation showing why the clip you presented makes zero sense in the context of what you’re trying to argue.
At this point, it’s hard to take what you’re saying seriously anymore. Nobody with any consequence of the game is going to watch that clip and see a balance issue, they’re just going to see a clear lack of in-game knowledge.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062239#Comment_4062239
Because there has never been anything done about it. We can see how successful tunneling is when Killers go on kill streaks in the hundreds. We see it often in our trials. Yet it's not considered a big deal.
However I agree with you. 2025 especially made it clear that they want tunneling to stay the way that it is, even when it negatively impacts the game. BHVR is always right at the end of the day and all we're doing is wasting our breath if we say anything they don't want to hear. It's like writing college papers again. 😵
What I don’t understand about your logic is this, who are these killers going on win streaks in the hundreds?
If you’re talking about specific pro players doing that with high skill-ceiling killers, how can that realistically be used in a balance discussion? These players are playing near perfectly every match on killers they have thousands of hours on.
Also, why is it that many high-level SWFs who go on win streaks end up having those streaks broken by another well-known high-level killer player? These players are all competing within an extremely small bracket at high MMR. Statistically, they’re almost invisible compared to the overall player base, even at high MMR.
You can’t make the point that tunneling is OP and then use examples of pro players that most people will never encounter in their games. Statistically, the tunneling killers people face in most matches, even at high MMR, don’t have the skill level to ever get anywhere close to something like a 1,800 win streak.
Another thing to consider is why survivors would ever go on longer win streaks than killers in the first place. A survivor team has many variables that determine its effectiveness: coordination, individual skill levels, perk choices, and communication. All of that has to align across four different players.
For a killer, the main variables are the player’s skill and the killer they choose. If you take a very good player and put them on a strong killer with an optimal perk build, it’s natural that they’ll go on longer win streaks than a four-person survivor team where multiple variables can affect the outcome.
Because of that, it’s expected that killers will have longer win streaks. With survivors, the outcome depends on the performance of four separate players, not just one. And we’ve even seen data showing that most of the player base in all MMR brackets consists of solo queue players, which significantly reduces the overall effectiveness of survivor teams against a very good killer player, regardless of the MMR bracket.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062228#Comment_4062228
Lol, no you couldn’t.
Yeah, I just went to custom and tried it. At point I pull up power after cancel, I can as well M1. Just don't be lazy and go into custom and try it.
If you actually watch the video, you can see the icon + "Charge Kagune Leap" after the cancel. At that point I can also M1…So just making things up so your counterplay seems legit, or what?
If that were the case, Nurse would be getting buffed.
They are not that oblivious, but killers who were not really that strong got nerfed because of their kill rates. Simply because their power was noob stompy… Sadako is good example
Also very weak killers are often not buffed, because their kill rate are good enough for devs → Trapper.
Devs actually said, he is in a good spot with his kill rate. Otz was not amused.Are you new to DBD, so you don't know how devs use data (kill rates)? That would explain things…
Lol, if Ghoul pulls his power at a pallet, you keep running or double back for a pallet stun. Ghoul can’t grab on reaction unless you drop the pallet too early like you did in the clip.
In order for Ghoul to grab you, he can’t get stunned by the pallet. So he either has to commit and assume you won’t drop it, or use his power outside of the pallet’s stun radius. That’s the entire reason he has to guess — it’s not on reaction.
Nobody just sits at a pallet across from Ghoul like you did in the video unless he leaped. And even then, you just time his animation. If he’s in leap like in the clip, you just run away. You’ll gain distance because of his movement penalty. Or you can double back and pallet stun him.
All the clip you posted really showed is that you don’t understand the basic fundamentals of looping or Ghoul’s mechanics.
You just proved it to truly be a skill issue.
Are you new to DBD, so you don't know how devs use data (kill rates)? That would explain things
You do realize there’s data the devs have that they haven’t shared with us, right? People have been asking for that information for years.
They don’t balance killers based only on public data. Did you actually think that’s all they look at?
If that were the case, Nurse would have been buffed.
And you’re asking me if I’m new?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062215#Comment_4062215
I don't think it's possible to have that discussion without tunneling. Without tunneling or hook swapping, there's no reason for the mechanic.
I will say rest assured, though. 2025 showed that there is no real attempt being made at combating tunneling, so the notifications will likely stay. As will the "feature" that blocks the Killer's aura during a hook.
I don't think it's possible to have that discussion without tunneling. Without tunneling or hook swapping, there's no reason for the mechanic.
Im asking if their is a balance reason for the nerf. I didnt want to asume OP thinks tunneling is OP because he didnt say it.
I honestly don’t understand why we must keep going down the tunneling rabbit hole. There’s already so much counterplay around it, and it keeps getting repeated over and over. There are even base-kit protections against it. Its effectiveness is largely determined by the skill level of both the killer and the survivors.
It’s not even always the right strategy. Sometimes tunneling can cost you the game, and sometimes it can win you the game. There are so many variables involved, perks, coordination, whether you’re facing a swf, killer choice, etc.
A good SWF can destroy a tunneler. We have coordinated teams showing up with toolboxes and anti-tunnel or exhaustion perks in Discord, destroying any killer that isn’t playing the strongest killers and also playing near perfect. Against good SWFs, tunneling can easily cost you the game. Even if your a good killer.
Yet people still keep going down the same rabbit hole.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062018#Comment_4062018
No, the only reason you were able to bring it back up that quickly was because you did a cancel fake.
Yeah, no.. I went to custom and tried it again. The moment I pulled my power after that cancel, I could as well M1. I have no idea what you are on about with cancel fake…
Now you are just making things up. But hey, feel free to create a clip showing what you mean.
And Nurse absolutely does have a high kill rate in high MMR.
She was definetly never in top 3 highest kill rates, which does not reflect her power level….
Also, the devs never said their evaluation was based purely on kill rates. They said he performs as a mid-tier killer across all brackets.
Lol and based on what you think they are doing it? Spoiler alert: it's just kill rates
Yeah, no.. I went to custom and tried it again. The moment I pulled my power after that cancel, I could as well M1. I have no idea what you are on about with cancel fake…
Now you are just making things up. But hey, feel free to create a clip showing what you mean.
Lol, no you couldn’t. You have to completely leave your power to M1. Pretending like you don’t know what a Ghoul cancel fake is after doing it in the video means one of two things:
Either you really don’t play Ghoul at all, or you’re pretending you don’t to maintain a broken point. (Which won’t be taken seriously as feedback anyway, so it’s pointless.)
I don’t need to make a clip. You cancel-faked in the video, then turned around and said you don’t know what that means. That alone is enough proof that you don’t even understand how Ghoul works — which also explains why you don’t know how to counter him.
Lol and based on what you think they are doing it? Spoiler alert: it's just kill rates
The devs have all the data. public Kill rates aren’t the only thing they use to judge how a killer is performing. If that were the case, Nurse would be getting buffed.
She was definetly never in top 3 highest kill rates, which does not reflect her power level….
Nurse’s kill rate is high among top players, just like Blight. Can we see that exact data? No. You could argue that I’m assuming, but we all know Nurse is one of the strongest killers in the game, if not the strongest.
If the devs judged killers purely off public kill rates, then why have they never said Nurse was a mid-tier killer across all MMR brackets like they said about ghoul?
That alone suggests they look at more than just raw kill-rate statistics when evaluating how strong a killer actually is.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062014#Comment_4062014
no offense but this misses the mark given that removing the notification does not stop tunneling, it would just make the killer have to pay more attention/commit. Someone can’t make a blanket statement that tunneling is always OP. It completely depends on which is killer is used, the map, how many gens are done etc. But can tunneling be OP under the right circumstances? Yes (see 4 slowdown Blights with 1k+ wins). But is that the point of this post? Nope.
The tunneling discussion is a separate topic for another thread, so I won’t get into that here.
Focusing on the change being suggested, what would be the balance reason for removing the base-kit unhook notification beyond the reasons already mentioned?
If a core piece of killer information is going to be nerfed, I think there should be a clear explanation of how that information currently creates a balance issue.
I also think it’s important not to assume intentions or arguments someone didn’t actually state. Even if something might be implied, it’s better to discuss the reasons that were actually given.
I’m just asking for a bit more clarity and transparency about the reasoning behind the change.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062078#Comment_4062078
I've been here a while, my friend, I'm not late to the party. Tunnelling hasn't fundamentally changed in years, and yes, when talking about that fact a lot of people do take it as a given that it's a problem.
Not to sound rude, genuinely, but at this stage it sounds a bit more like you personally don't think tunnelling is a problem and don't like seeing it discussed like it is? That's not an accusation, that's just how you're coming across, if it isn't accurate that's fairly relevant.
Moving on, when I say the reasoning isn't relevant I mean strictly when it comes to evaluating a specific change for this specific issue. Which of the two broad schools of thought there are regarding tunnelling as an issue specifically would be relevant for some of the nuances, but they also have a pretty fair amount of overlap- either way, you can evaluate the specific change being suggested, regardless of which reasoning you favour.
The only way you wouldn't is if you disagree with both schools of thought, which would obviously be its own matter.As for the word lame, you do keep bringing it up and always in a negative light, so I have to assume not liking that phrasing is important to your position.
Your reasoning absolutely matters when evaluating a change. That’s the entire basis of balance discussions.
A mechanic isn’t evaluated in a vacuum, it’s evaluated based on what problem it’s supposed to solve. If you remove the reasoning, then there’s no standard for deciding whether the change is good or necessary.
For example, if someone proposes removing pallet stuns, you can’t evaluate that change without asking why.
Is it because pallets are overpowered?
Is it because they’re frustrating?
Is it because they slow the game down too much?Those are completely different problems and they lead to completely different conclusions.
So no, the reasoning isn’t irrelevant. The reasoning defines the problem, and the proposed change is supposed to be the solution. If you ignore the problem being claimed, then you can’t properly evaluate whether the solution makes any sense.
In this case, OP gave his reason. And which my response is. Removing the hook notification simply because it feels annoying or unfun doesn’t really justify a balance change.
In my opinion, nerfing base-kit killer information should involve a separate discussion explaining how that information actually creates a balance issue. If a core mechanic is going to be changed, there should be a clear explanation of how it causes something to be unfair or overpowered.
Otherwise, it becomes difficult to evaluate whether the change is addressing a real gameplay problem or just frustration with the interaction.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062074#Comment_4062074
Well, let's pull back and look at this whole topic.
If you think tunnelling is a problem, it is almost always for one of two reasons: the imbalance, or you feel it's unfun to go against. It's usually the former, sometimes it's the latter.
In either case, you'd be suggesting changes to fix it, and you'd be upfront about the fact that your goal is to fix tunnelling as a problem.
Which of the two reasons you have in mind would be relevant to longer conversations, certainly, but when it comes to just pitching whatever change you have in mind the only part that's relevant starting off is that you think it's a problem worth fixing.
That's what I'm saying. There's no repackaging or reframing, there's no sneaky indirect changes to try and avoid saying the issue outright, people just take it as a given that tunnelling is worth fixing and make their pitches accordingly.
There's a fairly large degree to which it doesn't matter in this context whether they think it's OP or unhealthy for more fun-related reasons. We as commenters should still be evaluating the suggestion to see if it'd address the issue and to see if it'd have any unwanted side effects all the same.
Nitpicking the word "lame" to get mad at it isn't constructive either way, and it doesn't mean there's anything deceptive happening with the framing.people just take it as a given that tunnelling is worth fixing
No they dont. You think its a given. Most people accept tunneling isnt going anymore this debate has been going on for years. your just late to the party.
There's a fairly large degree to which it doesn't
matterin this context whether they think it's OP or unhealthy for more fun-related reasons.No, in no case is the reason for a nerf irrelevant. That makes no sense.
If I say pallets are a problem but don’t explain why they’re a problem, what value does that claim have? Without the reasoning, the concern itself becomes meaningless.
The reason behind a nerf request is the entire point of the discussion. If you want something changed, you need to explain what the actual problem is. And he did.
There's no repackaging or reframing, there's no sneaky indirect changes to try and avoid saying the issue outright
As i said not accusing OP of it but it does happen, because the "tunneling is OP" argument is exhausted.
Nitpicking the word "lame" to get mad at it isn't constructive either way
So now your trying to reframe this entire thing as me being mad at the word lame. Lol.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062025#Comment_4062025
The sticking point for me here is that this is arguing the tunnelling point directly.
OP's reasoning mentions tunnelling twice. They're not trying to hide or reframe that their proposed change is meant to weaken tunnelling, they're saying it outright.
Like you yourself said, this is an old talking point, and it hasn't substantially changed in years. At this point isn't it more likely people just take it as read that tunnelling is a problem worth fixing and don't bother with that preamble when they suggest changes?
It's not like tunnelling's been fixed yet. The things that made it OP back when this topic first aired its head may not be completely unchanged, but the only substantial change it has received was 6.1.0 removing the absolute most egregious version— and outside of that, tunnelling is still OP for the same reasons it was in the past.
There's no reason for the argument to go away, that's why you still see people directly saying they want adjustments to weaken tunnelling.The sticking point for me here is that this
isarguing the tunnelling point directly.You’re being purposely vague just to keep a weak argument going. What tunneling point are you even referring to?
OP’s point was simple: tunneling off the unhook notification is “lame.” He never said it was OP.
At most, he’s implying it’s toxic or unhealthy gameplay — not that it’s overpowered.
But nerfing something just because you personally find it “lame” doesn’t make any sense from a balance perspective.
Whether you like it or not, “tunneling is OP and needs to be changed” is nowhere stated or implied in OP’s post.
The claim that it’s an OP problem that needs to be fixed is something you introduced into the discussion, not OP.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061981#Comment_4061981
Data is objective actually. If it fits within a desired outcome then its valid, as much as some people will dislike that fact because it doesnt fit their bias opinion. Emotional, bias whining is the furthest thing from objective there is and worthless when it comes to decision making.
They know its worthless. They just don’t care. Some players think that if they overwhelm the devs with enough complaints and nerf requests, they’ll eventually get what they want no matter how weak or illogical the argument is.
So they keep pushing it.
That said, the devs have actually done a pretty good job so far of ignoring that kind of pressure.
It’s like a kid in a store asking for a toy after already being told over and over that it’s too expensive. They just keep asking anyway, hoping the answer eventually changes.
What’s crazy is how angry some people get about having to actually think at a pallet. Even if they make the right play and escape the situation, the fact that they had to engage with the mechanic at all still frustrates them.
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Of course there are still people who think tunneling is a problem. And some still drag that topic openly, its cringe but they do.
the tunneling discussion has been repeated for years and it almost always ends the same way. The same arguments get brought up, the same counterarguments get brought up, and the conversation just loops.
Because of that, some players don’t argue the tunneling point directly anymore. Instead, the discussion shifts toward indirect changes that would weaken tunneling in some way without framing the argument as a tunneling issue. Sometimes that includes perk changes, killer changes, or mechanics like information systems.
Instead of saying “this needs to change because tunneling is OP,” it becomes “this mechanic is lame,” or “this killer needs a nerf because of X.” But the underlying reason is still often the same: they believe it makes tunneling OP.
The reason it gets framed that way sometimes is because people already know what the response to the direct tunneling argument will be. That debate has happened thousands of times and usually ends the same way.
So the argument doesn’t go away, it just gets repackaged through smaller changes because the direct version of the debate is exhausted at this point. And they know trying to get tunneling nerfed by directly asking for it wont be taken seriously.
seeing another post about tunneling being OP is like seeing another post about the knight being OP.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062004#Comment_4062004
You dropped the pallet way too early — the timing was completely off.
That doesn't make any sense. If you drop it later, then I will have my power ready even easier… Ghoul can pull power on reaction against pallet drops.
You seem to think of him as huntress, but his wind up, cancel are way faster and he moves faster.Yeah, you list all mental gymnastic about what you should do against him as survivor. Well, it doesn't feel right to me with how little he needs to do in comparison.
Your way of dealing with him is not reliable, because it's 50/50 at best and I would say Ghoul needs to suck for it to work, but hey you do you.
I will stick to counterplay of not dealing with him and just go next…The devs themselves said ghoul is mid teir in all brackets of mmr.
I didn't ask about his kill rates. Players know for years kill rates don't mean much.
Skully was I think in 9th place even after she was nuked into Z tier. Nurse was never even close to being highest kill rate killer.
Kill rates simply don't reflect how strong the killer really is.Who is more hated than Ghoul right now? There are other candidates, but none of them have high pick rates unlike Ghoul.
Well designed killers don't see DC every other game…No, the only reason you were able to bring it back up that quickly was because you did a cancel fake. If you had actually canceled the power fully, there would’ve been a delay before you could bring it back.
You anticipated the fake working because you knew he would drop the pallet for the clip. If he had read the animation correctly, he would’ve just dropped the pallet and you wouldn’t have had enough time to grab and close any meaningful distance.
Between that and the many ways survivors can mind game Ghoul at pallets, this really just comes down to a skill issue.
Also, the devs never said their evaluation was based purely on kill rates. They said he performs as a mid-tier killer across all brackets.
And Nurse absolutely does have a high kill rate in high MMR.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062010#Comment_4062010
I'm not sure I understand the back half of your response, if you wouldn't mind clarifying.
Posts about tunnelling still happen, yes, and posts about tunnelling have evolved to newer/updated ways of potentially addressing the issue. It's the part about it being "harder to spot" because of the argument being "framed" differently that confuses me.
Is that not just that people continue to talk about the problem? You can spot people talking about the problem because they mention the problem by name. I'm not sure if I'm missing something here?
Complaints about tunneling have been around forever, and people are pretty tired of the discussion at this point. The same arguments get repeated over and over, and the same responses always follow.
Because of that, some players don’t argue about tunneling directly anymore. Instead, they suggest changes that indirectly weaken it.
Sometimes those suggestions target specific killers. Other times, like in this case, they target the killer’s information mechanics.
So the “tunneling is OP” argument hasn’t really disappeared. It’s just being framed differently so it sounds more reasonable.
The real goal is often the same, but instead of saying it outright, the argument gets wrapped in smaller changes or different reasoning. That way it sounds less like “tunneling is OP” and more like a reasonable balance suggestion. They dont always say it outright because sometimes players wont even take them seriously. Its the same argument over and over and over with the same results.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061998#Comment_4061998
Alright, I'll admit it, I did misunderstand your position.
I will say though, that's really nitpicky. Tunnelling being unbalanced is an extremely common sentiment, I don't think everyone should be expected to state outright that they also think that when suggesting ways to address tunnelling. That part is still basically implied if someone's talking about it as a problem. Going against unbalanced cheese is definitely something many would call lame.
It also doesn't really convey any disagreement you might have with the idea. It's possible OP wouldn't agree that tunnelling is unbalanced - that's a minority opinion among people who acknowledge it as a problem, but it does exist - but you're not exactly making any case against their idea either way, just nitpicking their phrasing.
I’m not nitpicking anything. I’m simply responding to OP’s actual argument.
What sense would it make for me to invent my own reason for why OP thinks the unhook notification is a problem when he already stated his reason in the post? Turning the reason he gave into something else isn’t fair. That would just be creating my own argument and pretending he made it.
If someone wants something nerfed or buffed, they need to provide a reason. And he did — he said it’s “lame.”
Saying “I want the unhook notification removed because tunneling with it is lame” is not the same as saying “I want the unhook notification removed because tunneling with it is overpowered.”
Those are two completely different arguments. One is about personal frustration, the other is about balance.
that's a minority opinion among people who acknowledge it as a problem, but it does exist - but you're not exactly making any case against their idea either way
Complaints about tunneling are pretty ancient at this point, and whenever they pop up in threads it’s almost cringe now. There’s a lot of fatigue around the topic because it’s been argued to death, the same points get repeated, and the same counterarguments always follow.
Because of that, some players try to frame changes more strategically to bring indirect nerfs to it. Sometimes it’s through killer adjustments, and sometimes, like in this case, it’s through the killer’s information mechanics.
The classic “tunneling is OP” post hasn’t really disappeared. It’s just evolved.
And sometimes it’s harder to spot now because the argument gets framed in a different way so it sounds more reasonable or more serious.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061983#Comment_4061983
He can’t. What’s happening there is you’re getting mind-gamed.
I canceled my power, she dropped the pallet on reaction when animation showed it (I was watching on stream to make sure my power is not bugged again), I just can pull it immediately back up to vault. No mindgame there…
You can't win this unless Ghoul for some reason tries to swing under pallet instead, but there is no need for that. Only reason why Ghoul would do that is he doesn't know how quickly he can pull his power back up…So sure, let's give him cooldown on his power when he cancels, make him lose 1 token. That would fix it and I would agree that becomes a counterplay,. but this just doesn't work right now.
If there were real proof that Ghoul’s kit is somehow toxic from a design standpoint
Who exactly is more hated than Ghoul? He is definetly in top 3. That wouldn't happen if his design was good.
Being hated is not reason for direct nerf, but it's a reason for changes in my opinion. He is becoming next Skully and as we could see with her, there is no coming back from that.I would like to play Ghoul, because his techs and mobility are really fun, but I don't want to deal with DC/give up every other game. So change him so he is at least bearable to play against…
In other words, keep the same level of effectiveness and skill requirement, just expressed in a different way.
The point is to incease skill requirement, because skill floor is very low for Ghoul right now…
I fully believe his vault is main issue, because it screws whole premise of free injuiry with having difficult time to down survivors like Legion.Lol, there are a lot of things wrong with that clip.
- You dropped the pallet way too early — the timing was completely off.
- Ghoul was standing with plenty of distance from the pallet while in his power. In that position you had a few options, you could’ve double-backed for a pallet stun, or simply wrapped the loop and vaulted.
Ghoul suffers a movement speed penalty while he’s in his power. That’s the entire reason he has to guess when you’re going to drop the pallet.
If he pulls out his power, he slows himself down. That means if he fakes it and commits to the chase, you can easily double-back and pallet stun him.
And if he guesses wrong on the drop timing, you just keep your distance and continue the loop.
The interaction only works in his favor if the survivor misplays the timing.
That’s why a lot of Ghouls get pallet stunned while in their power. If they sit back waiting for the drop like you did in the clip and the survivor doesn’t commit, the survivor gains distance.
You can mindgame a Ghoul heavily because his mechanics are very straightforward.
Who exactly is more hated than Ghoul? He is definetly in top 3
The devs themselves said ghoul is mid teir in all brackets of mmr.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061993#Comment_4061993
My point is more that if someone suggests a balance change, and their reasoning exclusively references tunnelling, it's pretty implied that they think tunnelling is a problem.
That is the context under which people are discussing the balance change. The actual reason OP gave was tunnelling, which they describe as both efficient and lame to go against.
I was attempting to be charitable because I thought you might've missed the phrasing of going back "to tunnel" and only saw the part where they describe it as lame.
It's the only reason people are discussing the unhook notification to begin with, that tunnelling is therefore a problem is implied. It's not like it's a particularly hot take, even if you personally disagree it's a very common sentiment that tunnelling is an issue.He made it clear in his post that the reason it’s a problem for him is because he thinks it’s “lame,” not because it’s overpowered.
People can think something is a problem for different reasons. In OP’s case, the reason he gave was that it’s lame.
You’re pointing out that he implied it’s a problem, which is obvious, but what you’re ignoring is the reason he gave for it being a problem.
If the real argument is that it’s overpowered, then that should have been the argument made.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061990#Comment_4061990
To be fair, they mentioned tunnelling directly twice, I'm really not sure how much more clear they could've been. Specifically their phrasing was that the killer dropped a chase to "go back and tunnel when they hear the notification".
That's also what everyone else has been talking about, at least if they're in favour of this change. The unhook notification is being linked to tunnelling and therefore discussed as a potential way to alleviate tunnelling as a problem.
Even the person you were talking with when I replied, they're talking about tunnelling, they say it outright. I think you might've just misread a few posts? No shade, it happens to the best of us.
Why are you trying to reframe what I just said as “he never mentioned tunneling”?
That’s not what I said.
I said he never made it clear that the reason he wants the information nerf is because tunneling in that situation is overpowered. The only reason he actually gave was that it’s “lame.”
So I think you’re the one misreading here.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061984#Comment_4061984
…It's not undercover, man, everyone's been talking about tunnelling this entire time.
I mean, it’s pretty subtle given that OP’s reasoning for the info nerf was simply that it’s “lame.”
Maybe it would’ve been more transparent to just say the real argument outright, that tunneling is overpowered when done in that situation.
Not saying this was necessarily OP’s intention, but it does seem like some players who think tunneling is OP try to frame their arguments around smaller changes like this instead of stating it directly, because it sounds more reasonable that way.
But if the underlying issue being argued is tunneling, then that should be the discussion, not removing information from the killer and pretending it’s a balance issue.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061974#Comment_4061974
Not to speak on someone else's behalf, but it's what the killer is autopiloting that matters here. It autopilots their ability to tunnel a survivor, so yes, it's unbalanced.
Lol, so being notified when and where someone was unhooked, and deciding to run back to the hook after it happens, is now considered OP?
So killers shouldn’t be notified when and where an unhook occurs because they might tunnel during that window?
That’s the argument?
This is just another undercover “tunneling is OP” post, isn’t it?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061721#Comment_4061721
My conclusion is he needs changes. I have no issue with buffing some of his other aspects.
When Ghoul cancels his power and uses it again, the animation clearly plays
You can usually see it, unless it gets bugged... But he can do it faster than you can react and drop the pallet, so outcome is exactly same as if you would just drop it in front of him.
So basically only chance you have is predrop before he gets in LoS…
data shows Ghoul is a mid-tier killer.
So is Nurse, just saying…
He is not overperforming, so I can agree he doesn't need direct nerf, but he does need changes. The longer you wait, worse it gets. You might end with Skully situation, where even if they nuke him, survivors will still hate him…
I think Ghoul has potencial to be fun killer for both sides, but right now he is only fun to play. As to play against, I would say his is definetly in top 3 hated killers.
The devs have said ghoul is mid in all brackets of mmr.
But he can do it faster than you can react and drop the pallet, so outcome is exactly same as if you would just drop it in front of him.
He can’t. What’s happening there is you’re getting mind-gamed.
There’s only a short window where he can pull his power back up for a fake, and there’s a clear animation difference when he actually cancels it fully.
Once you understand that distinction, it’s reactable.
And in a lot of mid-sized or smaller loops, you don’t even have to greed the pallet. If he pulls out his power, the slowdown alone can give you enough time to wrap the loop again and maintain distance.
So the interaction isn’t unavoidable — it’s just about recognizing the animation and playing the loop correctly.
My conclusion is he needs changes. I have no issue with buffing some of his other aspects.
I can respect that take. My main issue is with players who push for nerfs or buffs based purely on emotion while refusing to adapt to the mechanics they’re dealing with.
That said, I still disagree that he actually needs changes.
If there were real proof that Ghoul’s kit is somehow toxic from a design standpoint — not overpowered, but genuinely unhealthy for the game — then I wouldn’t have a problem with adjustments. But those changes would need to preserve his current strength and difficulty.
In other words, keep the same level of effectiveness and skill requirement, just expressed in a different way.
The problem is that doing something like that isn’t easy. Reworking a kit without altering its overall strength or skill curve is extremely difficult to get right. Also ghoul with his current kit is a extremely fun killer to play.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061822#Comment_4061822
You said it would only hurt killers who “autopilot.” Let’s assume that’s true for whatever that means for the sake of argument. Is autopiloting in that situation a balance issue? Is it somehow overpowered?
If you dont understand what that means I have to assume you are trying to not understand it, but I will explain regardless - currently the Killer has to just listen to the Unhook Notification if they want ot tunnel. With the removal of the Notification, the Killer would still see the exact moment the Unhook happens, they just would need to:
- pay attention to the HUD
- remember where the Hook was
Both very manageable I would say. Survivors also have to pay attention to the HUD. If I am on a Gen, I cannot just ignore the HUD and overlook that the other two Survivors are also on Gens when one is hooked. Someone of us has to watch the HUD and decide to go for the Save. Killers on the other hand get a directional signal which basically is a big sign with "Tunnel here and now". Removing that would have barely any impact, except for those Killers who really are on autopilot.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061823#Comment_4061823
Saying that Comms are cheating already disqualifies everything you said.
But aside from that, the Killer does not need to check it manually. They just have to look at the HUD at some point. Like the Survivors have to do as well.
You explaining what “autopilot” means doesn’t change the point.
Is it unbalanced?
Calling something “autopilot” isn’t a justification for an information nerf. Where is the balance issue? How does this information actually disrupt the balance of the game?
Putting a label on it doesn’t suddenly make it a problem. “Autopilot” isn’t an argument — it’s just a word being used to justify a nerf that hasn’t been shown to fix any balance issue.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061763#Comment_4061763
Re-read your post I replied to. OP describes a scenario he encountered as an example of why this mechanic isn't necessary and probably leads to bad habits.
Your first response is to say:
So you’ve seen a killer make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure,
So I'm not sure why you're confused here. OP is arguing that maybe the game shouldn't train new killers to follow notifications around, and you ignore all context surrounding this scenario they're describing to just say it's "the smart play". That's not OP's argument, that's your assessment.
I'm trying to point out that it isn't always a smart play, and based on the situation OP specifically calls out, it's probably not the correct play unless there's some extreme circumstance involved. (like looping near hook, which would also make the entire arguments about the notification moot since it's right next to you).
I’m not sure what post you’re reading, because that isn’t what OP said.
OP described a scenario where the value of dropping chase or continuing it could go either way depending on the situation. But in context he’s clearly referring to situations where going for the unhooked survivor is the most efficient decision.
He literally says in his post “at least remove it for mobility killers.” He also acknowledges that the play is efficient. So using some basic common sense, it’s pretty clear he’s talking about scenarios where going for the unhook makes the most sense.
And the reason he wants the notification removed is because he considers it “lame.”
Instead of addressing that point, you derailed the conversation and started arguing about whether dropping chase is even a smart decision in the first place.
That has nothing to do with what OP said or what I was responding to.
So I'm not sure why you're confused here. OP is arguing that maybe the game shouldn't train new killers to follow notifications around, and you ignore all context surrounding this scenario they're describing to just say it's "the smart play". That's not OP's argument, that's your assessment.
What exactly are you reading? OP never said that. He never mentioned new players once, and that was never his argument. I think you might be on the wrong post.
argument, that's your assessment.
I'm trying to point out that it isn't always a smart play, and based on the situation OP specifically calls out, it's probably not the correct play unless there's some extreme circumstance involved
Nobody ever said it was always the smart play, which is why your response is confusing.
The situation OP described could go either way depending on the circumstances. But in this case he clearly makes it obvious he’s talking about scenarios where going for the unhook is the most efficient decision.
That’s the context the discussion was based on.
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061796#Comment_4061796
Playing devil's advocate to see how strong this position is. I'm curious.
Its just the sound that is changing, not all the signs. You still get notifications if you're paying attention. This game is all about juggling all the things needed to pay attention to, and if one were to be asked 'Do survivors and killers need to think more in the trial?', I'd wager no player would say yes. So honestly, even playing devil's adv, I still think this change would do next to nothing. It would only hurt a killer who wants to auto pilot, and we know regardless of how terrible or gross a killer playstyle is, it will be defended til the heat death of the universe.
If this change would do next to nothing, then what exactly is the point of it?
You said it would only hurt killers who “autopilot.” Let’s assume that’s true for whatever that means for the sake of argument. Is autopiloting in that situation a balance issue? Is it somehow overpowered?
Because that’s the part some players don’t seem to understand, when you propose a nerf, you have to demonstrate where it actually affects balance.
Removing information from the killer is objectively a nerf. So why would we nerf something that doesn’t have a balance problem?
If the justification is simply that it feels better or seems less “lame,” that isn’t a balance argument. That’s an emotional reaction leading to an illogical conclusion.
At that point, it’s just noise rather than meaningful balance feedback
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061744#Comment_4061744
bro just say you only play one side and move on lol
I don’t only play one side though. It’s just funny that when reason and logic aren’t on some players side, the rebuttal suddenly becomes “you must only play killer.”
Instead of addressing the argument itself, the response shifts to labeling the person making it. It’s an easy way to avoid engaging with the actual point.
But that’s pretty typical of the DBD community. When the mechanics and logic don’t support the complaint, the conversation usually pivots to assumptions about who you play instead of what you said.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061618#Comment_4061618
If you took it away he'd just plain suck having to get two m1 hits tbh. That simply takes too long nowadays.
True, which is why my only real suggestion is to adjust the free injury to requiring more active input. Any other suggestions have been under the proviso that this change is not possible, based on you mentioning that trying to make it a skill shot failed during development.
Deep wound so you can't,
Yeah my mistake, I run DH so little that I forget. I tend to prefer non-exhaustion perks, and if I am gonna run one it's usually lithe.
Wasting time reworking a popular, fun, perfectly fine and functioning killer that has average stats is completely pointless and a waste of time. He is not a problem. He is a modern designed killer for modern DBD, frankly he fits how the game has been balanced and changed for faster paced games than practically every killer in the game
I've said I don't think Ghoul is OP. I think he's decidedly unfun. The perception I'm seeing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this is fine, because balancing around the fun of survivor players is ultimately what is placing the game in a state where something like this is needed. I don't think that necessitates free, ranged, gap-closing injuries that deep wound as a bonus. We shouldn't be immediately throwing away the fun of survivors because being overly concerned with that has caused problems before (which I do not deny it has, see recently walked back PTB changes). Playing as Ghoul, I do not find it fun to get hits like this either, it's just an animation I gotta wait through so I can have my regular chase.
This conversation has been stretched out, but it all boils down to the same thing, Ghoul should earn that initial pressure, not take it for free. That's the only real stance I have. I'd even buff him elsewhere to compensate if it tanks his performance enough.If ghoul isnt OP at all. Why would you want him to be more in a position to miss his injure?? Like i just cant grasp your logic.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061744#Comment_4061744
make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure
Is it, though?
The example OP used is dropping chase with an injured survivor to go back to hook. So the options presented here are either:
A) continue chasing an injured survivor, presumably who is one hit from downed. The unhooked survivor and the unhooker spend time healing (not on gens), and you finish a chase with a down and hook (also not on gens). That's an awful lot of slowdown (time survivors aren't on gens) that results in a hook (pressure) and recovery time (more pressure).
B) expend time dropping chase to cross the map again, interrupting the recovery, so the unhooker and the previous chase survivor go back to doing gens. Then you chase the unhooked survivor who is also injured, but now has unhook protections on top of that.
So, in the first scenario you have a hook almost complete, two survivors who will voluntarily not do gens while you finish that chase/hook if you just leave them alone, and you don't have to waste your time crossing the map.
In the second, you leave two survivors with no choice but to go do gens, expend time crossing the map to chase the person who automatically has more chase left in them.
So, in the "back to hook" scenario here, you're actively giving up map pressure and spending extra time in the hope that you can regain that time back after the first survivor dies. That's the opposite of map pressure, and it's highly debatable if that's the "smart" play in the scenario they gave, especially since other factors are missing here (like map, killer, builds, gens remaining, proximity of chase to hook). It's certainly not automatically the best play with just the information given.
Having survivors not doing gens is the basic definition of map pressure, either by requirement/response to things the killer does, or voluntarily.
Which brings me to the next thing you brought up:
While we’re at it, can we remove flashlights too
Sure, every time killers complain about survivors voluntarily choosing not to do gens, BHVR seems to nerf or remove it and survivors go back to doing gens... (Which leads to complaints about gen speeds and gen "rushing") So I find it interesting that you complain about "being 'smart' for map pressure" and yet would also prefer survivors do gens instead of voluntarily choosing to do literally anything else (voluntary pressure, effectively).
I think the point of my post completely flew over your head.
My post wasn’t about whether going for the hook was the right choice or not. Obviously that’s situational and depends on the value in that moment. That was never the argument being made.
The argument you’re trying to create has nothing to do with what OP actually said.
He wants the unhook notification removed because it’s “lame.” That’s the entire premise.
So I’m not sure why you decided to segment a piece of my post just to start arguing about something that’s completely irrelevant to the point I was responding to.
OP himself said that it’s "efficient".
So I find it interesting that you complain about "being 'smart' for map pressure" and yet would also prefer survivors do gens instead of voluntarily choosing to do literally anything else (voluntary pressure, effectively).
? completely lost me here.
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So you’ve seen a killer make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure, and because it worked, it’s now “unhealthy” and “lame”?
And because you personally find it lame, we’re supposed to make a balance decision around that and remove the unhook notification from the game?
While we’re at it, can we remove flashlights too? I always have to turn to a wall before picking someone up. Very lame to go against.
If “that worked against me and I didn’t like it” becomes the standard for balance changes, then no mechanic survives.
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@Zuiphrode said:
The devs said Ghoul is flat out middle of the road statistically which means that despite all the crying he is actually very balanced.
Are we really surprised? The DBD community has built a reputation for turning frustration into balance campaigns.
Every time something disrupts established habits, the conversation shifts from “how do we adapt?” to “this needs to be changed.” Emotion drives momentum, and momentum gets framed as consensus.
That makes it incredibly difficult to separate legitimate design concerns from reactionary pressure.
It often feels less like discussion and more like strategic narrative-building, repeat something enough, amplify edge cases, ignore counterplay, and push until it looks like a widespread issue.
I genuinely don’t know how the devs deal with it. Filtering real balance problems from emotionally fueled noise has to be exhausting.
Balance shouldn’t be determined by who complains the loudest. It should be determined by data, reproducible mechanics, and whether something is truly unhealthy for the game, not whether it disrupts comfort.
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I’m struggling to believe your results reflect what you’re describing.
From the outside, it feels like the conclusion, “Ghoul needs nerfs”, is already decided, and the argument is being built around that.
I’ve gone into customs to test this. Multiple people in my Discord server have as well. When Ghoul cancels his power and uses it again, the animation clearly plays. There is a visible distinction between faking the power and actually leaving it.
And yes, you can react to it, unless the animations are bugged.
The only example being cited is this so-called “Armint” tech reported by a YouTuber. But no one I’ve tested with has been able to replicate it following the instructions provided.
That raises questions.
If it were a consistent, reliable mechanic, it should be reproducible in customs. The fact that it isn’t suggests either:
- It’s extremely inconsistent,
- or It’s ping-related
The idea of a “new tech” being amplified without consistent proof starts to look less like a balance issue and more like momentum-building, possibly creating fatigue around the killer so that a rework becomes more appealing.
A developer has already stated that the data shows Ghoul is a mid-tier killer.
If the counterplay were truly bugged or unreliable the way it’s being described, Ghoul would not be performing at mid-tier levels. He would be overperforming significantly. And the gameplay videos I posted, which show his counterplay working as intended, wouldn’t have played out that way.
So either:
- The mechanic is consistent and reactable (as testing suggests),
- Or it’s an extremely rare edge case being treated as a core balance issue.
If it’s the latter, that’s not justification for nerfs.
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I to get games like this quite often, and the honest truth is that you’re probably just a solid killer.
The issue is that players who experience coordinated, high-efficiency survivor play regularly don’t really have a strong voice in the broader discussion. A large portion of the survivor playerbase consists of solo queue players, and many of them don’t consistently practice strong generator efficiency due to their MMR bracket and the nature of solo queue.
Because of that, their perspective on what survivors are capable of is shaped by the games they personally experience. If most of your matches involve inefficient gens, weak coordination, and inconsistent looping, your balance opinions are naturally going to reflect that environment.
So when you post games like this, the usual responses are predictable:
- “That’s rare.”
- “You just played badly.”
- “You ran the wrong perks.”
But anyone who has faced strong, coordinated SWFs knows the reality: there are only a handful of killers who can realistically have a chance to keep up against a well organized, high efficiency team.
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One thing I’m sure both you and the development team are aware of, and this exists in almost every PvP game, is that feedback often includes a portion of unreasonable players.
In competitive games especially, balance discussions tend to get flooded with emotionally driven reactions. We’ve seen in other games what happens when developers overcorrect based on that type of pressure instead of long-term data and design philosophy. The game stagnates instead of evolving.
If the data shows Ghoul is a decent, mid-tier killer, then it’s worth asking: why are people still calling for him to be made worse?
If his counterplay were truly unclear, or if he were highly rewarding with little difficulty, that would show clearly in performance metrics — kill rates, high-MMR outcomes, matchup statistics, etc.
When that doesn’t show up in the data, it suggests something else is happening.
This goes back to the idea of unreasonable feedback. It wouldn’t be fair to balance around players who refuse to adapt, especially when other players are willing to learn matchups and adjust to new mechanics.
If Ghoul’s kit were genuinely “toxic,” the community wouldn’t just be asking to make him weaker. They’d be asking for a rework, redistributing mechanics to reduce frustration while maintaining his intended strength and difficulty.
But that’s not what’s being asked.
What’s being asked is a straight reduction in his effectiveness, particularly in the areas where he actually secures downs.
That doesn’t sound like a design toxicity issue. It sounds like resistance to adapting to mechanics that punish autopilot gameplay.
If the only real complaint is that he disrupts overly safe looping habits, that’s not inherently unhealthy for the game. Sometimes adaptation is part of competitive balance.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I don't quite get the Ghoul hate; if I want to win, I'd look at the blight. Ghoul is easy to pick up and good into easy survivors, but there's a plateau you hit with him where Blight would take you farther more consistently. sure, he's "easy no skill" but how skillful somebody is is kinda irrelevant to me. id sooner face a round of AFK Pig than play vs the super skillful Blight.
the kidnap tech is gone so I don't really have the strong negative emotions I used to. but there's still an echo I guess. but people still hate SM and Pinhead so sometimes there's no reasoning with people
If the devs just fix any bugs left on ghoul and just ignore the people crying about him soon, players will stop crying and accept the fact they have to learn counterplay and accept him. Just like the blight.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061191#Comment_4061191
Instead, you’re ignoring the two gameplay videos I posted because they directly show Ghoul being countered with the exact tips I explained.
The guy didn't know how to play LT wall… Counterplay is not valid, if it works only against players who have no idea what they are doing.
That's why I want to test it myself in custom, to see if it works when killer know what you are trying to do.
For example greeding doesn't work, if Ghoul is able to just pull his power on reaction of you dropping a pallet/fast vault.
It doesn't work, if he is able to cancel and swing, before you can medium vault.
etcThose weren’t highlight montages, they were normal matches showing practical counterplay.
No, they were cherry picked gameplay, where they get somewhat decent chase.
All that’s been presented against that is a 0.1% highlight montage of body-blocking clips. That doesn’t prove consistency.
Not really, you don't need to be 0.1% for that. I am pretty sure to learn how to outplay shack with Ghoul without bamboozle in like 20 minutes, because I am used to that movement from Blight.
Sure, doing that on short tiles can be impressive, but on longer tiles it's not that difficult.If Ghoul were truly broken, there would be consistent gameplay showing unavoidable pressure, not isolated montage moments.
I never called him broken. I called him obnoxious.
I simply don't like there effectivness of Ghoul compared to difficulty of achieving that result. It's just too easy in my opinion and skillfull plays are not required for him.There is no “workaround” for Ghoul against his counters. He can only mindgame around them.
If you actually understand how Ghoul works, you’d know his pallet vault is only effective when you grab someone who is right next to the pallet. Trying to grab on reaction is pointless — by the time you pull out your power, they’ll already have too much distance. It has to be predicted.
That’s not broken mechanics. That’s a read.
It doesn’t matter whether the clips were cherry-picked or not. The videos showed simple, repeatable counterplay that directly worked against Ghoul’s core mechanics.
You still haven’t shown proof of a Ghoul consistently bypassing his counterplay without relying on mindgames.
If the only way he secures downs through his supposed “counters” is by out-predicting the survivor, then that’s not an imbalance — that’s normal killer gameplay.
So unless there’s evidence of Ghoul reliably ignoring or invalidating his own counterplay without reads or prediction, the argument that he’s oppressive just doesn’t hold up.
Not really, you don't need to be 0.1% for that. I am pretty sure to learn how to outplay shack with Ghoul without bamboozle in like 20 minutes, because I am used to that movement from Blight.
Sure, doing that on short tiles can be impressive, but on longer tiles it's not that difficult.
It’s extremely difficult to pull off because it requires near-perfect precision and very fast reaction time. If you don’t execute it cleanly, you waste time and lose pressure immediately. That’s exactly why it’s impressive when it works.
Only something like 0.1% of Ghoul players can do it in a somewhat reliable way.
At Shack it’s not that hard — but that’s the point. It’s extremely loop-dependent. Shack is probably the easiest loop in the game for Ghoul to block effectively because of the structure and spacing.
Outside of very specific loops like Shack, consistently body-blocking with leaps requires:
- Perfect spacing
- Perfect timing
- Immediate reaction
- And a survivor who doesn’t pre-adjust
If any of those conditions aren’t met, it falls apart.
That’s not an oppressive, universal mechanic. That’s a high-execution, situational play that only works in certain layouts and at very high skill levels.
I never called him broken. I called him obnoxious.
I simply don't like there effectivness of Ghoul compared to difficulty of achieving that result. It's just too easy in my opinion and skillfull plays are not required for him.
Hes a m1 killer he definitely needs skill. You would only think that if you dont know how to counter him. Which is a skill issue.
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For the most part I like the video, but I think it’s a bit misleading.
My biggest issue is this so called “Armint” tech. I’ve played a lot of games both with and against Ghoul, and I have never once seen this done in an actual chase.
If you go to 8:07 in the video, the Ghoul he’s looping doesn’t even raise his tentacles. They barely move, and when he grabs over the pallet it looks almost faint or desynced. It clearly looks like a bug right?
But if you compare that to 13:58, where he supposedly demonstrates how the tech is performed. In that example, you can clearly see the animation cycle:
- Tentacles raise
- Tentacles lower
- Then they’re used again
The animation is visible and consistent throughout.
Those two clips don’t look remotely the same mechanically.
I even went into customs with a friend and tried to replicate what happens at 8:07, and we couldn’t reproduce it. The animation always shows correctly when done intentionally.
So what exactly is happening at 8:07?
If this “tech” can’t be consistently replicated in customs, and it doesn’t show proper animation behavior like it does later in the video, then using that clip as proof of a reliable strategy feels questionable.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061152#Comment_4061152
I doubt you even play ghouls who do this consistently or even play him. Given this post.
No, I have rule to not use what I don't want to play against. I just stomped survivors to get his achievements and was done with it.
I would want to play him, because I am kind of person to learn all possible killer techs and his techs look very fun, but he is just too obnoxious currently.
Sorry, but especially on large loops like Shack, his bodyblocks are just not difficult (at least on PC). Any decent Blight player will be able to get that, because it's just about fast camera turning.But why would Ghouls learn this, when they can just vault and get same result…
From your videos, two Ghouls clearly had no idea what they are doing, so I will ignore that.
I will try "greed window" and "greed pallet" which was in one of those, but I am pretty sure you can't medium vault faster than he can cancel and swing, but I am willing to try at least. (I wonder if Ghoul can just prompt steal against that)Those two videos I posted show how most Ghoul players actually play.
The montage you showed was one of the best Ghoul players in the world going for clips, not playing normally, not playing for consistent wins. I even linked his stream where he literally says he’s just going for clips because winning consistently is hard right now.
That alone disproves the idea that body-blocking with leaps is some reliable, standard tech Ghoul players use in normal matches.
If that mechanic were truly oppressive and consistent, the best Ghoul players in the world would be using it regularly when they’re actually trying to win. They don’t.
Instead, you’re ignoring the two gameplay videos I posted because they directly show Ghoul being countered with the exact tips I explained. Those weren’t highlight montages, they were normal matches showing practical counterplay.
All that’s been presented against that is a 0.1% highlight montage of body-blocking clips. That doesn’t prove consistency. It proves it can happen in ideal circumstances.
Right now the argument boils down to complaints and exaggerated claims rather than evidence. If Ghoul were truly broken, there would be consistent gameplay showing unavoidable pressure, not isolated montage moments.
If the best players can’t reliably use leap body-blocking to win consistently, then it’s not a realistic balance concern for the average match.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061110#Comment_4061110
When you like to post videos, here is link for you, so you can learn how to play ghoul properly:
https://youtu.be/KIdBjmT0708?si=psd6JBLN9E6zjf3d
"exteremely hard" and "unrealistic" :D
Imagine trying to preach about his counterplay, when you don't even know what the killer can actually do.If his pallet vault gets nerfed again, what is he left with? A mediocre M1 killer that nobody wants to play?
If that's what you are left with, you are just bad Ghoul…
Free injury and one of best mobility powers is pretty good start.
If you actually find some skill and learn how to use his power in loops, then even better. As long he can just vault for downs, there is no reason to even try to get better with him and just crutch on easy playstyle with Bamboozle instead.You just proved my point with this entire post i guess you didnt see this in my earlier post
As far as him body blocking not only is that extremely hard to pull off and isnt realistic. kaneki players quite literally make montages of the tech on youtube its essentially going for clips.
That video you just posted, is one of the best ghoul players in the world and this was literally the title of his stream 12 days ago
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2700738455Hes one of the best if not the best ghoul mechanically, and even he doesnt block loops consistantly in games. Its quite literally the reason he makes montages of it, because of how hard it is and how your average ghoul cant do it. Which is why they get so many views.
If you watch some of the best ghoul players they dont rely on that tech and most of the time there going for clips. Because everytime they mess up its just a waste of time. He does it for content.
And were talking about the best ghoul players in the world. Your average ghoul player isnt doing any of these things in loops.
I doubt you even play ghouls who do this consistently or even play him. Given this post.
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@smappdooda said:
I love all the hardcore players saying "skill issue" like they are the gods at this game forgetting that there are casual players which make up a majority of the player base. Not everyone can commit to 1,000s of hours in this game and "git gud". Step outside your bubbles and realize some aspects of the game are just un-fun to go against on both sides. (The the devs have said many times it's about having killers that are fun, not oppressive like nurse but here we are…)
For those that have all this "knowledge on counter-play" but don't show any examples of YOU doing it in real time, your arguments are weaker. Please show us your counterplay skillz. Show us all how it's done.
Nothing being done in these videos is professional-level gameplay. These players are simply exercising his counters and being rewarded for it.
They aren’t running in a straight line and pre dropping every pallet the moment the killer gets close. They’re not burning every resource instantly and then complaining when they get punished later. These are the kinds of players you don’t see on the forums asking for Ghoul nerfs.
It’s 2026. At some point players need to stop masking “I’m not winning” with “this is unfun.” Asking the devs to reduce the speed of his pallet vault because it’s “unfun” just sounds like an excuse to avoid being punished for lazy looping.
Let’s be honest, most Ghoul players rely heavily on his pallet vault to secure downs. And survivors want that nerfed because they know that’s the most realistic way he’ll down them. It’s counterable, but it requires discipline and timing.
Meanwhile, people bring up body-blocking with leaps and his hitbox like it’s some consistent oppressive strategy, when maybe 0.1% of Ghouls can pull that off reliably, and even then it’s extremely loop-dependent.
If his pallet vault gets nerfed again, what is he left with? A mediocre M1 killer that nobody wants to play?
The devs should ignore emotionally charged complaints and focus on actual data and logical reasoning. Nerfing a killer because he annoys people isn’t healthy balance philosophy.
And the players disconnecting against him at the start need longer penalties, instead of catering to those type of players they should be either suspended or given longer deserters.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061025#Comment_4061025
At some point, people need to stop confusing “BHVR currently intends this” with “therefore it is healthy design.” Those are not the same thing.
And honestly, when almost every comment from someone follows the exact same pattern of “do not nerf killer, learn the matchup, skill issue,” people are obviously going to read that as bias rather than analysis. Repeating “skill issue” is not an argument. It is what people say when they want to skip the argument.
If you want to lecture survivors about counterplay, then survivor experience actually matters. The same is true in reverse. People who only look at one side of the game usually end up with very loud opinions and very little perspective.
Yes, Ghoul has counterplay. That was never the real point. The point is input versus reward. Survivors are asked for far more precision, timing, and restraint than the killer is asked for in return, especially once the player behind Ghoul is actually competent. That is why many people enjoy playing him, but far fewer enjoy playing against him.
So no, this is not automatically “people refusing to adapt.” Sometimes it is simply players recognizing that intended does not always mean fair, healthy, or well designed. If every opposing view gets dismissed as “skill issue,” that usually says more about the bias of the person posting than the quality of the argument.
When we’re talking about nerfing a killer, him being annoying to play against isn’t a valid reason on its own. If you don’t want to learn the counterplay because it’s “unfun,” that doesn’t justify asking for nerfs.
People don’t say “skill issue, learn the matchup” for no reason. They say it about Ghoul because he actually has real counterplay, and it’s not hard to learn. You just have to make the effort to understand it, which a lot of players in DBD seem unwilling to do.
Nothing Ghoul asks from survivors is mechanically difficult. If it is, then explain what part is hard. What specifically is unreasonable about his counterplay?
If you want to shut down the “skill issue” argument, you have to prove it’s not one. Saying “you’re just dismissing the argument” doesn’t prove anything. Show why his counterplay isn’t sufficient.
Because calling it bias or dismissive without actually disproving the counterplay just looks like an attempt to keep complaining without addressing whether it’s actually a skill issue.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060978#Comment_4060978
Kankei Is Overturned / Under nerfed we just have to compare to other killers in the roster
This is the Trickster PTB and he got his movement speed decreased too 4.4 a killer who is way weaker then ghoul (a common request on this thread from people in regards to ghoul)
Even The First the newest killer got some slight changes decreased wordbreaker timer and vine attack sound plays slightly in advance so survivors can react
Wesker has died.
But somehow Ghoul is dodging being even slightly nerfed like neo in the matrix.Hes not being nerfed because has has counter play, and the data most likely reflects that.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061025#Comment_4061025
extremely hard to pull off and isnt realistic
If you consider that to be extremely hard, then your standard is really low… Lopro flick was exteremely hard. Turning your camera, click in front of survivor and cancel your power is not…
It's also pretty realistic with his low fatigue and ability to just cancel the power quickly.you refuse to have to be bothered with thinking before dropping a pallet or vaulting
not really, I tried a lot, just gave up, because ghoul mains are just all talk with no sense. I have spend a lot of time in custom to figure out animations, I have even tried to play him to see if someone will manage to show me what to do.
But no, only thing that requires skill on him is not needed (bodyblock in loop) and you even claimed it as unrealistic... His power level is not even close to his skill floor requirment, which I personally find to be an issue.I would say timing the vault back against Ghoul required more skill than anything Ghoul does currently. What's even funnier, it was not without a counter, if survivor was injured, it was possible to grab them.
Body blocking loops with ghoul is very unrealistic because he has a very big hitbox, not only is it really hard to pull off but its very pallet dependent to compensate for that hitbox. If you look at some of the best ghoul players live streams you would see this.
if you honestly think it is realistic you should have absoulutely no problem countering ghoul because countering him is much much easier then getting consistant downs with his body blocks.
Majority of this is just another way of saying
"i dont want to play the pallet game with ghoul" and thats fine, but that doesnt mean he needs a nerf its just a skill issue.
Just stop pre dropping pallets infront of a powerd ghoul and ul be fine.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060975#Comment_4060975
Multiple near 2000 winstreaks is more than "keeping up"
Would it not take 4 world class survivors to beat a world class killer on blight? Aren't these players like the best amongst the best?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060978#Comment_4060978
You can greed a pallet while he’s in his power.
Doesn't change the fact god pallets are useless against him. You can't really greed that unless he fall asleep while waiting for you to drop it…
When his tentacles go back to normal, that’s when you drop.
Yeah, I know from experience that doesn't work on safe pallets. He can just pull his power back up and vault.
That was first thing I tried when he came out.It’s almost impossible in smaller loops.
That's kinda the issue, if it is big enough loop, he can just vault the pallet or bodyblock with power and if it is acutally that small, then you can just mindgame it easily as 115%.
Before that, he was nearly useless against good survivors.
Well, now it's 0 skill guaranteed down tool… so much fun and people wonder why survivors just go next. Trying to get the timing and vault back was kinda my only reason why even try to play against Ghoul, I really can't be bothered now.
I would just say his kit is kinda too big for how little of skill is needed to play him.
I can agree bodyblocking mid loop with his power takes some skill, so I would rather focus on that part of his power. His current vault is just not doing that. That's just free down on top of free injury…Doesn't change the fact god pallets are useless against him. You can't really greed that unless he fall asleep while waiting for you to drop it…
This just isnt true, greed the pallet and know when to leave the loop. This is a skill issue.
Yeah, I know from experience that doesn't work on safe pallets. He can just pull his power back up and vault.That was first thing I tried when he came out.
Also not true, there is a delay for him going back into his leaping state, and that was done purposely for those situations, skill issue.
That's kinda the issue, if it is big enough loop, he can just vault the pallet or bodyblock with power and if it is acutally that small, then you can just mindgame it easily as 115%.
Not true, once you master greeding pallets against him hes very mid. As far as him body blocking not only is that extremely hard to pull off and isnt realistic. kaneki players quite literally make montages of the tech on youtube its essentially going for clips.
Well, now it's 0 skill guaranteed down tool… so much fun and people wonder why survivors just go next. Trying to get the timing and vault back was kinda my only reason why even try to play against Ghoul, I really can't be bothered now.
This just says alot about your mindset, you refuse to have to be bothered with thinking before dropping a pallet or vaulting, and much rather just completely make a killer useless by exploiting a bug. Instead of actually learning counterplay. DBD needs harder penalties on players who will just disconnect selfishly instead of refusing to learn something new.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060902#Comment_4060902
The thing is, you don't really need to be too good on blight to make him work since he's really forgiving, unlike nurse, which is also why the blight winstreak is so much higher. That is why such a strong killer doesn't need that much handholding and being forgiven for being misplayed.
That is why the proposed changes focusses on him retaining his massive potential during chase when played right, but gives survivors a more fair timewin when properly countering or mindgaming him.
Unironically, the current proposed nerfs might make blight players become even better at the killer, as currently they can get away with a lot of slop-plays, but with these changes they have to think more thoroughly about how to use his power, making blight players become better at his unique power than ever before, as misplays are less forgivingBlight not landing during his rushes is already punishing enough, adding furthermore is just not needed.
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This is another example of people refusing to adapt or learn counterplay and instead mass-supporting calls to nerf a killer.
Kaneki has clear counterplay — counterplay the community has been vocal about for people to learn for a while.
Talking to players about Kaneki usually goes like this:
Player 1: He’s OP, nerf his vault or something.
Me: You can greed a pallet while he’s in his power.
Player 1: He can fake going into M1.
Me: There’s a clear animation difference. When his tentacles go back to normal, that’s when you drop.
Player 1: But he can vault windows too.
Me: You greed the window while he’s in power. When he leaves power, you vault.
Player 1: Vaulting a pallet after his pallet vault was the most reliable counter though.
Me: If you don’t want to greed, you can drop the pallet and vault it while he grabs you, then vault back over it.
Player 1: His leaps are so fast, he has too much mobility!
Me: Breaking line of sight is extremely strong against him.
Player 1: You can’t loop him because of his leaps.
Me: You absolutely can. In loops, he’s basically an M1 killer. Once you learn how to greed pallets against him, he’s very mid. His leaps can be used to body block in loops, but that’s extremely pallet-dependent and hard to pull off. It’s almost impossible in smaller loops.
At the end of these conversations, it’s always the same conclusion: “Nerf Kaneki.”
Nobody is quitting DBD over Kaneki. People don’t actually think he’s broken, they just find him annoying. And when something is annoying, the default reaction is to ask for nerfs.
The pallet vault bug fix was necessary. Before that, he was nearly useless against good survivors.
Killers like The Blight are still far stronger than Ghoul.
Kaneki isn’t OP. He’s just a matchup people don’t want to learn.