top500spiderman
top500spiderman
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@Terror_Misu said:
Man this thread has made my night go by fast. Please dont stop responding @top500spiderman , seeing you flounder is extremely entertaining lol
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052599#Comment_4052599
And you're framing it like gens can only move that fast in a coordinated SWF. I have absolutely moved gens that quickly in solo queue and have had full solo queue squads accused of being a SWF and of gen rushing. When I say table stakes I mean that if I don't see survivors split up and start on three or four gens relatively quickly after the start of the match I will immediately become concerned about the quality of my teammates. I won't double up on gens that early unless its one we obviously need to get out of the way. If they're doubling a gen in the corner of the map I stop expecting to escape (not that I give up).
The primary decider of how quickly the gens pop is always how long the chases are lasting with the first being the most important. If the first chase lasts two minutes it is incredibly likely that three gens will pop. That first chase is ridiculously important (too important honestly) but if the next chase lasts even half as long there is a chance the last gens pop as well. You don't actually need coordination to manage this, you just need every survivor to have a good understanding of the map layout and where generators are likely to spawn. If we are going to talk high mmr four man then the fair comparison must be to high mmr solo so even in the non-swf team we should assume a decent level of skill and understanding of the game. These players should be able to handle this without comms, I would honestly call not being able to do that without comms a skill issue. Obviously those chase times are a perfect scenario but in a mismatch situation this is what happens.
The game is balanced around there being one killer and four survivors, saying that the survivors in a swf multiply the value of a chase is just silly. There are still just four survivors total and if they understand the maps they will be on a gen regardless. Being in a swf does not actually make the gens shorter.
If three survivors are working gens no one is protecting the tunnel out. You have gotten the scenario mixed up. If you are leaving them on hook, you won't have three survivors on gens because at least one is going to be in chase unless we are assuming an incompetent killer and that would just be unfair to a properly balanced match.
Knowing exactly where the tunnel out target is and if the killer is nearby the hook and if the unhook is safe are all things you actually get from communication and that require communication (baring perks). It is a big part of why I never take bond off in solo queue, knowing where my teammates are is regularly paramount to success. It is entirely skill mismatches and tunneling dynamics that make solo queue high mmr have a 40% escape rate and four man high mmr have a 48% escape rate because a decent killer will still push you off those gens before you can complete them, down you quickly, and get those gens regressing.
I expect gen efficiency from my teammates, I don't expect them to know exactly where I am or be able to tell me that we need to stop a heal because the killer is on their way or be able to effectively setup a spot to body block the killer. These are the things that comms actually help with.
I have absolutely moved gens that quickly in solo queue
im not saying solos cant do gens quickly. Im saying swfs turn the same chase time into more consistent gen progress because no one wastes time or overlaps inefficiently.
the primary decider of how quickly the gens pop is always how long the chases are lasting
Chase time matters, but how efficiently that time gets used is what im talking about. Thats where comms make a difference.
being in a swf does not actually make the gens shorter.
It doesnt change the gen timer, it changes how efficiently survivors use their time while its running.
If three survivors are working gens no one is protecting the tunnel out.
Right, and swfs can swap roles instantly without hesitation because they know who needs to move and when.
you don't actually need coordination to manage this, you just need every survivor to have a good understanding of the map layout
Understanding the map helps, but coms remove the guesswork about who should be where and when
these players should be able to handle this without comms, I would honestly call not being able to do that without comms a skill issue
They can do it without coms, just not with the same consistency or efficiency that coms provide.
Again, im not arguing that chase or skill dont matter…. I’m saying SWFs convert the same chase time into more gen progress because of coordination, and thats the part you’re overlooking.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052531#Comment_4052531
You focused on the evidence I used instead of the point I was makingGood for me then.
Points require evidence, reasons why they should be believed. If the evidence falls, so does the argument.
reinterpreted what the devs actually said in the quote1: I think you are the one doing the reinterpretation and dropping context, I think some others explained it better than I did.
2: I don't think you connected with what people disagreed with you over.
then asked me to defend positions I never claimed.The only thing I can think of is the happy/unhappy argument, which, as I said above, if you don't think they were unhappy, the line of questioning toward me made no sense.
I’m not saying perks or items don’t factor in, but the SWF coordination is key to what I’m sayingI feel like you need an element of uniqueness. Many perks (maybe even all of them) work better with coordination. From something simple like having a dedicated unhooker with healing builds, to pallet saves, to sabo, to body blocks - coordination is always going to have the advantage. So yes, gen rush would be better in the hands of a SWF, but so would everything.
points require evidence, reasons why they should be believed. If the evidence falls, so does the argument
Reinterpreting the quote doesn't make the evidence fall. It just moves away from what it actually says
I think you are the one doing the reinterpretation and dropping context
The quote says the 60% killer KR “falls in line with our intended Killer balance.” That part isnt ambiguous.
many perks (maybe even all of them) work better with coordination… so yes, gen rush would be better in the hands of a SWF, but so would everything.
My point isnt that coordination makes everything better. It’s that gen speed multipliers scale unusually well with coordination compared to other mechanics, which is why gens feel especially fast in swfs.
the only thing I can think of is the happy/unhappy argument
Thats exactly what I meant. I never claimed they were unhappy with survivor ER, but you kept asking me to defend that.
which, as I said above, if you don't think they were unhappy, the line of questioning toward me made no sense.
That question came after you said they were happy with all the stats. I was asking where they actually said that.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052542#Comment_4052542
You can only slam gens if someone on your team is holding the killers attention, that takes skill or they go down quickly and you get to say hello to whatever regression the killer brought. You could categorize both sides doing this under an umbrella of chase skills, they are not doing the same exact things but they are engaging in the same aspect of the game. If we wanted to measure this an easy way to so would be to capture an average for each killer and compare each chase to that average. If above the survivor has played better, if below the killer has played better.
Macro skills are largely the same for both sides, knowing where on the map needs their pressure and when. Those macro skills are more abstract and receive less attention than more mechanical skills but I think everyone ultimately still knows about them and would agree that they are important.
The killer doesn't need a weak link to win but you would likely agree that identifying a weak link and tunneling them out will typically result in victory, so long as they are weak enough that you actually get the tunnel out quick enough. Misidentifying this tunnel out will easily lead to defeat so I'm not calling it a surefire thing for the killer either. This doesn't have to be right off the bat, you can truly start looking to get someone out at 2 or 3 gens left and so long as you get it fast enough you likely win.
A well coordinated team can do a better job of protecting such a weak link or just a player on death hook and in a high mmr four man it is far less likely that such a link is truly weak enough to tunnel out effectively all the time. Obviously, it depends highly on what killer is being played, the skill of the specific killer, skill of the "weak link" survivor, and the skill of the rest of the survivor team but again we are talking about high mmr four mans so we can assume a decent level of skill from every member.
In a match without such a team, especially one with less or no comms between the survivors, a weak link is much more likely to be present, available for tunneling, and the survivor team will have a much harder time of protecting them. Even when all players are skilled it is still harder to hide and protect a survivor you cannot communicate with. This is where we get into the fact that avoiding/preventing a tunnel out takes much more skill and coordination from the survivor being tunneled and their team than is required to get a tunnel out as killer, the game is designed around the survivors eventually going down after all. If the game had in game comms and reasonable matchmaking (I doubt either will ever happen) we could chalk this up to skill issue alone but that isn't reality and its the one I face nearly every time I queue up for match.
Gen efficiency is basically table stakes for survivors, you are required to do so if you want to escape. Gen perks do not actually make you that much more gen efficient and the moment you lose a teammate all gen efficiency goes out the window. You better hope the match is already close to over. The only way out at that point is if every single remaining survivor is significantly better than the killer. I have had this happen in solo queue so it isn't impossible but it is incredibly rare.
You’re framing this like gens only move fast if someone is looping out of their mind. My point is that in coordinated SWFs, gens move very fast even off completely normal chases because of how gen multipliers and comms stack efficiency. Thats not a chase skill issue or a tunneling issue, its how coordination interacts with the gen mechanics.
you can only slam gens if someone on your team is holding the killer’s attention
Im not saying chase doesnt matter. Im saying in swfs, normal chases translate into a lot more gen progress because of coordination.
you could categorize both sides doing this under an umbrella of chase skills
Their both in chase, but survivors get to multiply the value of that time through coordination. Killers dont get an equivalent multiplier from it
A well coordinated team can do a better job of protecting such a weak link
Right, and while their doing that, three coordinated survivors are working gens extremely efficiently. Thats the part Im pointing at
gen efficiency is basically table stakes for survivors
In solo queue maybe. In coordinated swfs, gen efficiency scales way beyond ‘table stakes’ because of comms, stacking, and coordination.
My point isnt that chase, tunneling, or perks dont matter. Its that in coordinated swfs, gen speed multipliers and comms make the value of any time bought in chase much higher than it is in solo q. That interaction is what makes gen speeds feel too fast, not just skill mismatches or tunneling dynamics.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052134#Comment_4052134
And I think you are dramatically exaggerating somewhere. The strategy you propose is simply too brittle to work against a skilled killer. My suggestion would be to try those win streak builds the next time you swf and see if your win rate changes. The thing that I think you are most likely down playing is probably the skill level of your swf (if they actually exist and if you are actually winning with them as often as you claim).
There is a much simpler answer to the higher escape rate amongst the high MMR four man group. Matchmaking sucks and when it creates a mismatch, to the killer disadvantage in this case, there isn't a weak link to tunnel out and even if there is one slightly weaker player the others know exactly what to do and when. They will very likely still get at least the three out but it's because they are better than the killer, this is already a match the survivors should win.
Just like for killers, the better the survivors the more likely you are to get one of these mismatched matches. It's entirely the fault of the soft cap which based on the data we have isn't the same as the high MMR BHVR uses in their stats.
Survivors win by slamming gens and coordinating. Killers win by applying pressure. That’s not the same skill, so saying one side is just ‘better’ doesn’t really make sense.
Also your saying killers need a weak link to tunnel out to win, and that coordinated groups don’t have one. That sounds less like a matchmaking issue and more like coordination interacting very strongly with gen speed.
If a killer needs a weak link to remove to win, that points to a design interaction, not just a skill gap.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052489#Comment_4052489
Me and you haven't been discussing about gen speeds,It's the overall discussion you've engaged in and I brought it up in my first response to you. Everything harkens back to either that or what gets used from BHVR as evidence.
But, if you don't think that's the discussion what is the reality I'm denying in relation to your "you get some type of discomfort when reality clashes with what you believe/want to."
its been a cycle of you repeating things you didnt like the answer to.Again, it shouldn't be hard for you to quote what you think I'm evading (or at a minimum, say it).
Not to move the goal post but iv been saying this from the start, even in other post.But you're not engaging in the full spectrum of the argument (something @FerrousFacade mentions in their last reply). There's a clear tradeoff between gen speed and survivability (exhaustion, anti-tunnel, second chance). As a game mechanic it makes a lot of sense to have players make those tradeoffs. Are any of the perks too strong? Maybe, though I think not by much. Toolboxes probably are, though part of the issue there is the mess survivor items have been in for awhile now.
It's the overall discussion you've engaged in and I brought it up in my first response to you. Everything harkens back to either that or what gets used from BHVR as evidence.
You focused on the evidence I used instead of the point I was making, reinterpreted what the devs actually said in the quote, and then asked me to defend positions I never claimed.
That’s why the discussion kept going in circles
But you're not engaging in the full spectrum of the argument (something @FerrousFacade mentions in their last reply). There's a clear tradeoff between gen speed and survivability (exhaustion, anti-tunnel, second chance). As a game mechanic it makes a lot of sense to have players make those tradeoffs. Are any of the perks too strong? Maybe, though I think not by much. Toolboxes probably are, though part of the issue there is the mess survivor items have been in for awhile now.
I hear you on tradeoffs, but my point was that gen speed multipliers are especially strong when SWFs have coordination via comms. That combo is what makes gen speeds feel too fast. I’m not saying perks or items don’t factor in, but the SWF coordination is key to what I’m saying
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052457#Comment_4052457
If you notice almost all of this post is you repeating yourself from pages ago lol.This is something you said pages ago,Iv already addressed this pages agoThen it should be relatively easy to quote it. Then either I can address it, or I can point to the post where I responded.
Looking at the bigger picture here, it looks like you get some type of discomfort when reality clashes with what you believe/want to.You don't even know what I believe.
I think there are some gen rush options that survivors have that probably should be nerfed. You've just argued it so poorly you're hurting your own side.
You've just argued it so poorly you're hurting your own side.
Me and you haven't been discussing about gen speeds, its been a cycle of you repeating things you didnt like the answer to. You can always add to the topic if that's how you feel.
I think there are some gen rush options that survivors have that probably should be nerfed.
This has honestly been the foundation of everything i have said. Not to move the goal post but iv been saying this from the start, even in other post. I may have given slight exaggerated build depictions but it was just to convey a point that gen multipliers need to be looked at. Theirs not just only 1 gen rushing build.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052132#Comment_4052132
You wouldn't be in this situation if you didn't spent your last 4-5 post deflecting.You're so incredibly bad at logical discussion, let me try and help you out. I know it can seem difficult at first, but you might have an actual point somewhere in there and it doesn't help your cause to construct your arguments so badly. Seriously, this could be so much better.
1: If you bring up a source as an appeal to authority, like BHVR, you don't get to use them selectively. Either you commit to the point of view that they must have data we don't, or you throw it out entirely (as a hint: generally it's better to throw it out entirely, especially with BHVR). Otherwise it feels like you don't have the ability to defend your own stance and so you are cherrypicking what you use.
2: When you ask people questions during a disagreement, there has to be some relevance to the questions, or you are obviously rage baiting. As an example, you want me to prove BHVR is happy with something despite the fact that you are unwilling to take a stance that they are unhappy. This makes you seem afraid to actually engage with discussion.
3: The person who brings up a point has the burden to show the relevance to the discussion. You brought up the 48.3 and BHVR's stance, your argument, the burden is on you to prove the relevance to your point. If you're trying to pick apart people's responses instead of defending your original points it clearly shows you are aware you can't defend them.
4: If you're going to argue an issue subjectively, you need to explain why something is creating a certain feel. For example, if the speed of the game feels too fast, explain why. Now, like all subjective arguments, it becomes more of a survey, because everyone has different opinions on feel, but at least that creates a point for discussion. As an example, one of the best arguments against the prior version of DH was how dumb it felt to run around constantly playing the head nodding game or how when survivors argue against tunneling they do so about how and why it breaks the enjoyability of the game.
5: If you're going to try and use evidence, saying something like 'ask any' is such a weak argument. It creates the impression of being engaged in group think and that you aren't used to having your ideas challenged. Especially if you think the issue is that overwhelming it shouldn't be hard to point to a stream of 10 games with the issue occurring again and again.
As a suggestion - DbDLeague ran a tournament recently where the survivors were unrestricted. Some gen focused builds were used, and toolboxes were the most taken item. Now this is going to also hurt your argument, because again remember you can't partially use a source, some of the perks you are complaining about saw very little use.
It also won't help you with @cogsturning because he, like many, doesn't consider the 0.001% percent of the playerbase relevant, but at least it would give you a starting point.
6: If you think people are getting the context wrong, you need to explain why, usually with detail. Just saying 'read' is always going to look like you know you've lost the argument but don't want to admit it. Also obviously bouncing back and forth between context and defining single words makes you seem obviously evasive.
7: To have a discussion, you have to respond to the points others make, not the points you want them to make. If you just want to state your opinion and be done with it, go ahead, but its not much of a discussion.
8: If you tell someone you are not going to respond, you have to mean it. Otherwise it seems like tactic to try and get the other person to stop disproving what you say.
9: You're allowed to admit something was a bad argument or phrased poorly and move on.
If you notice almost all of this post is you repeating yourself from pages ago lol. You've been trying to brick wall the discussion between me and you for a while now.
If you bring up a source as an appeal to authority, like BHVR, you don't get to use them selectively. Either you commit to the point of view that they must have data we don't, or you throw it out entirely (as a hint: generally it's better to throw it out entirely, especially with BHVR). Otherwise it feels like you don't have the ability to defend your own stance and so you are cherrypicking what you use.
This is something you said pages ago, to which i responded and you deflected. So now after derailing from your own deflecting, your saying this again after its context has drifted. ( which is why it makes no sense. )
When you ask people questions during a disagreement, there has to be some relevance to the questions, or you are obviously rage baiting. As an example, you want me to prove BHVR is happy with something despite the fact that you are unwilling to take a stance that they are unhappy. This makes you seem afraid to actually engage with discussion.
Iv already addressed this pages ago. It didn't change, when ever you build the courage to be in a situation that feels like your point fell apart and not deflect, you can always go back and actually quote one of my response post to this
Looking at the bigger picture here, it looks like you get some type of discomfort when reality clashes with what you believe/want to. So instead of you updating that belief you reject the evidence. This is why you just deflect, repeat, deflect, repeat.
I'm just not going to entertain it.
Thanks for the suggestion though, ill be looking into that tournament.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052134#Comment_4052134
Well, first of all, hook states are 70 seconds. Maybe lurking near a hook waiting and just allowing 3 other survivors to do gens isn't always the correct play every single time. That's a lot of free gen time killers seem to consider "time well spent" that's really just doing nothing.
Second of all:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z8QGJ54O5C6V/1000012118.jpg
Last official chase time we were given. One minute, on average, for an entire match, is not a lot. So keeping people in chase is easier than ever. Survivors can't do gens in chase, last I looked.
Third: This magical scenario you've concocted for "24 seconds" takes a full suite of perks, multiple survivors, those survivors doing gens inefficiently by grouping up, and using single use items. This is not possible all game. Stop pretending that this is "the norm". It's an extreme outlier, that almost never actually occurs in normal games.
You're doing the equivalent of pointing to the "2000 kill steak blight" and screaming because you think that's somehow every single match. And it's not.
If you genuinely want to combat the most common form of gen rushing, then leaving the hook alone and chasing the only survivors who can physically touch gens is the answer. Lurking near a hook for up to 70 seconds and allowing survivors to do gens for free with no pressure is the most common form of "gen rushing". And yet people defend the killer in those situations nearly every time.
Edit: autocorrect
Well, first of all, hook states are 70 seconds.
Iv played dbd for years, they use to be 60, i forgot that they changed it in a 2024 update.
Last official chase time we were given. One minute, on average, for an entire match, is not a lot. So keeping people in chase is easier than ever. Survivors can't do gens in chase, last I looked.
I was following you until you said - "so keeping people in chase is easier than ever". The stats actually implies that the killer spends most the match NOT in chase.
Third: This magical scenario you've concocted for "24 seconds" takes a full suite of perks, multiple survivors, those survivors doing gens inefficiently by grouping up, and using single use items. This is not possible all game. So pretending that this is "the norm". It's an extreme outlier, that almost never actually occurs in normal games.
- its not a magical scenario
- It doesn't take a full suite of perks (if you mean survivors running full gen builds)
- It doesn't take multiple survivors only 2.
- Its not always inefficient to double gens especially when your clocking them at 24 seconds!
- your right, Its not the norm at all, given that high mmr isnt the "norm"
- With built to last it is very possible all game
You're doing the equivalent of comparing the "2000 kill steak blight" and screaming because you think that's somehow every single match. And it's not.
I never insinuated that it was every single match il quote you what i said in a previous post
This is just not true, most swfs in high ELO gen rush.
Iv been talking about Swfs in high ELO this whole time never did I once, generalize the entirety of Dbd games.
I would love for you to explain to me how doing a gen in 24 seconds or less with 2 people without a full gen perk build is balanced though.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052121#Comment_4052121
If the survivors are grouping up like this then they are easy to force off the gen together which gives the killer extra pressure and once the gen is regressing all the time and item usage you put into it starts going to waste. All they need is proper game sense which is a skill a killer should have and then you are just handing multiple survivors to the killer, which in your scenario are all not great chasers.
If you are trying to do this right off the start of a match and the first gen does pop then its likely that you have completed one in a far flung corner of the map. If you told me the survivors would only have to complete four of six gens but the map was going to be smaller with fewer pallets/windows and the survivors were going to start with at least partially depleted toolboxes I would probably take that offer. It just becomes a part of the map I never have to visit or concern myself with. That makes it a somewhat safe place for the survivors to run to but they can't stay there forever and so long as the survivors aren't better than me I should be able to down them before they get there or it will simply be too far for them to get there. You have just done many low tier killers a favor. Many of them are at their strongest holding a smaller number of gens and you just helped them with that.
Maybe you can do 24 seconds for the first gen but this doesn't last all match unless the killer is worse than you, at which point they lose because they are worse than you not because of the perks. You can at most double up on gens when someone is on hook and someone is in chase and at that point you are letting the person hang and risking that person going second or trading/downed before trade while simultaneously being less efficient on generators. It doesn't add up, maybe if you are mostly going against killers worse than you but why should you lose then.
It seems your downplaying just how fast 24-27 seconds is. You do know that a survivor going to 2nd hook stage takes 60 seconds right? 24 seconds is extremely fast in terms of gen speeds. Like super fast. Unless you know exactly where they are at that point they start it. Your not gonna stop them unless they were late to the party.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051957#Comment_4051957
Turning your statements into little segments to run from context nicce.You don't actually explain the context I'm missing. Like most of your arguments, you stay vague and evasive.
This is classic deflection technique you are engaged in. When you quote BHVR, and people explain the meaning of the entire sentence, you start defining individual words and avoiding the context argument. When people break things into parts, you act like they are avoiding the larger context. You never engage the actual discussion, you try to work your way around it.
So to cut through the deflection - you are the one who brought up BHVR KR's numbers, high MMR, and alllllll their data (I'm keeping the 7 Ls that you used in the original) and you've spent two pages avoiding what you said. You can either defend it, or admit you made a mistake.
I cant stop you from trying to change the english language, do as you wish.
As for the rest of this post, its just once again you deflecting because you refuse to face the wall you keep running into that YOU created for yourself. You wouldn't be in this situation if you didn't spent your last 4-5 post deflecting.
So to cut through the deflection - you are the one who brought up BHVR KR's numbers, high MMR, and alllllll their data (I'm keeping the 7 Ls that you used in the original) and you've spent two pages avoiding what you said. You can either defend it, or admit you made a mistake.
like what are you even responding to you deflect so much your just completely out of context in every post now lmao.
This is classic deflection technique you are engaged in
Why are you talking like a anime character? lol
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052114#Comment_4052114
Let's assume you are correct for a moment, what would the result be?
- Gen speed perks are removed/nerfed
- Kill rates go up
- All killers are nerfed in some way because the kill rate has gone up
If your suggestion is correct and its as prevalent as you seem to think then gens are too slow for BHVR's intended balance without the existence of these perks.
As for your question, I would still focus on going for long chases. Stealth is not reliable, it can work and should be used some of the time but you cannot consistently avoid the killer forever, certainly not a decent one. If the team cannot sit on gens because the teams chases are not long enough then they will not be able to make use of their gen speed perks, some of which require multiple people sitting on the same generator. Someone will need to go get hooks, you will need to heal, and that gives the killer plenty of additional opportunities to find survivors to chase. Gens make noise in the first place, the killer knows someone is at least around. If their chases are not great they should still be running DS or OTR or some anti-tunnel which eats into the gen perks and immediately makes the gen perk strategy less effective in the first place.
It might work on less skilled killers but it won't on more skilled players that keep their chases short. The number of times I've had a conversation like this where the skill level of the killer is neglected is way too high. You are describing decent players who should be able to win at least some of the time when going against decent players. Ya, matchmaking sucks but that is entirely BHVR's fault and until that changes the stats we have show that the majority of matches favor the killer even when going against a high mmr four man which makes up a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.
Ghoul literally gets a free injury with deep wounds for just looking in a survivors general direction. It takes no skill to hit someone like that. You literally have to do half the work other killers have to, have a built in counter to most anti-tunnel, and you will be across the map on the next survivor in moments. The number of people that defend ghoul is the prime example of how easy many killers expect the game to be for them. No killer has done more damage to this game than ghoul has.
You can still run Anti tunnel perks and gen rush. It only takes 3 perks to drop a gen speed from 47 seconds to 24 seconds possibly even lower, and that's only 2 people, and the 3rd perk is prove. So it only has to be 1 person with the perk so its only 2.
If you want to do this all game all you need is built to last as your 3rd and every gen that gets doubled gets done in 24 seconds or lower. In what world could any mid - low teir killer ever compete with this?
This is clearly unbalanced and shouldn't be possible in any circumstance, But these are the type of cheeses that Swfs use as crutches. It needs to be addressed.
Theres nothing wrong with actual really good players, extending chases against really strong killers to win, but giving survivors a option to hang just by abusing multipliers shouldn't be a thing.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052066#Comment_4052066
If you win the majority of your matches then what's the problem? Clearly these things are not beating you, right? You are basically saying that you should be winning your matches even harder than you already are. I agree that most go for cheese over actual skill but that cheese only gets you so far before you do need actual skill to win but the cheese can get you much further on the killer side than the survivor side.
If the cheese is beating you then you likely can still improve unless you are solo queue (my primary role) and then to some extent you are at the whims of the matchmaker (not that I can't still improve). I regularly lose to killers that played worse than me but I can't think of a time I lost to survivors that played worse than me, even when they go for "gen rush" perks.
I use them as an example because people will regularly retort something along the lines of high mmr/top players/etc… (like you did) and you simply can't get more top than this. If those players reach for chase/anti-tunnel over gen perks then its safe to say that chase/anti-tunnel is stronger than gen perks. And if you watch these players play killer in public matches they will win basically every match, that cannot be said of them playing survivor unless they group up. I don't expect anyone to be as good as them but then they need to stop expecting to put up the same results. If you are not on their level but still win as many of your killer matches then we have a serious problem, especially when I see far more complaints like those in this thread claiming survivor is too strong. The claims of winning every match but that survivor needs nerfs do not add up or they just want to win matches even harder than they already do.
For the record I would in fact be in favor of removing literally every perk and item that effects gen speeds on both sides and then re-balancing how long gens take around this (and lets make them variable for different killers while we are at it). Though this is mostly because I think the existence of gen regression/blocking is the primary thing that prevents killer build variety. So long as those perks exist or so long as they can be stacked they will always be the strongest thing killers can bring (unless they get nerfed to actual uselessness) and then gen speeds have to be balanced around killers stacking them.
Quick question, if your playing survivor with friends and all of you understand the game. All of you are good at holding chase, but not great at it, and you know the only killers who can down you fairly quickly are high teir killers. Knowing this weakness what are you and your team most likely going to focus more on.
A. Gen Speeds
B. Long chases
Anti-tunneling and haste perks are not forgiving perks against most high teir killers, those perks demand skill. Which is why many people who play survivor here feels like some of them aren't enough. There really strong if you have the skills to back it
Gen rushing is much more easier then that. You can coronadite and use coms in a way to reduce chase time or avoid it all together. Yea this is fine but the perks associated with it is UNABALNCED.
Its the number #1 prime reason why players think ghoul is OP and needs a nerf when he has plenty counterplay because most players dont have that ability to hold chase against high teir killers. Even good players.
So yes as it should be Long chases is better then gen rushing, but whos doing long chases against these high teir killers in high ELO lobbies? the 0.01% is.
Most of these killers in those games are getting gen rushed.
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I win most of my games on killer and i win most my games on swf when i play with my buddies. This has nothing to do with me losing lol.
You keep using 0.01% of players as a example, let me ask you this. Killers that go on 1000+ win streaks, do you think they go against team eternal every game after there 500th win? No, they dont.
Same way those survivor teams dont go against a blight with a 1000 win streak every game.
These players are stomping your average sweaty player, there a top player in a pool of good players. Every once in a while these top players face off.
Top of the top players are in every game, there a very small percentage of players, there statistically almost invisible
The problem is, your average sweaty SWF and killer doesn't try to close the gap with skill, they close it with cheese.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052009#Comment_4052009
Unless you have official data that shows the 8% directly correlates to those perks and that upper MMR 4mans use them wayyyy more than the other brackets, you're just saying what you want to believe. Players don't know their MMR, everyone just does a whole bunch of assuming, despite the matchmaking being notoriously bad. But I'd bet you anything that more teams win with DS or StB than Prove Thyself and similar perks. Stopping a tunnel is infinitely more valuable than two or three people sitting on the same gen.
You dont have to choose between DS and gen rushing you can pick both. I mean you have a point, i dont have the official data to say it corelates but, this is the forums and im giving my feedback based on my experience and other killers experience all over the internet who are undoubtedly in that realm of mmr and to me, thats data worth entertaining. If you win 100 games in a row im pretty sure your in high mmr if were being realistic, and all over killers streams you can see they go against gen rushers all the time.
But either way being able to do a gen in 24 seconds with 2 perks + prove. Is broken. weather you wanna believe there using these perks or not.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051976#Comment_4051976
Are you suggesting that the best survivors in the world wouldn't use the absolutely strongest things they possibly could while trying to break the survivor winstreak world record? You are out of your mind. If gen "multipliers" were such a problem they would have used those, they didn't. I think they know the game far better than either of us.
If such a win streak is possible then another player of equal skill could match it, it establishes the maximum potential of the killer. The only reason Trapper isn't S tier because of a 200 game winstreak is because Nurse and Blight are capable of 1000+ game winstreaks. If every other killer capped at say a 50 game winstreak but Trapper still had that 200, then Trapper would be S-Tier (it would be a very different game).
Go watch any top killer and see how many matches they win vs how many they lose. How many gens get completed doesn't matter when at most a single survivor escapes.
Different doors open for certain players. Many are closed for most, some are closed for some and none are closed for ones you cant see.
the Swfs with no doors closed dont play by the same rules as everyone else. The devs could buff blight 3 times over and these teams would probably still beat most in their games.
Although gen rushing is unbalanced in Swfs these players have options that can surpass even that with just sheer skill, but its fair play because these players are just that good.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051976#Comment_4051976
You think the best survivor players in the world in a group need to sacrifice perk slots to make gens drastically shorter?
This is what you've been arguing though, that the top 4mans waste their slots on gen multipliers when in reality they mostly run second chance. It's not the top survivors using team gen perks, it's the average ones.
iv been arguing what the vast majority of swfs do in high mmr, not what the best survivors in the entire world does.
This goes back to you when you said you've met killers with 90% KRs those killers dont represent the vast majority of killers in high MMR. When you guys bring these people up your talking about the top 0.01 percent of players in the entire world.
High mmr doesn't mean the best players in the world. These are statistical outliers
These players
- Run perfect tiles
- pre planned pathing
- They track killer mind games instantly
- Abuse map knowledge to the pixel
- and they loop for minutes
Good players still make mistakes like pathing errors, misread mind games at times etc their not near perfection like these players you use as a example.
These players you use know the killer’s only correct option, and play around that, even against blight and nurse these players can route them for minutes. Their perks will reflect that.
Swfs ER isnt a whole 8% higher in High mmr because of these 0.01% of players.
This is why you see alot of times these survivor teams with these crazy wins streaks gets ended by a #1 killer or another top of the top killer.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051964#Comment_4051964
You have been complaining about SWF and say they gen rush with perks this whole thread. This is the ultimate example of how wrong you are. Your statement has zero relevance to that fact, its just the standard attempt to discredit the opposition when they prove you wrong. Good survivors know that the number one way to get gens done is to extend chases and prevent killers from getting a tunnel out. Exactly what these builds are designed to do.
Ask any competitive killer or just go back and watch their streams.
Maybe take your own advice. Any comp killer will tell you that if you are competent at the role you should win 90+% of your public killer matches. Watch their stream and you will see them win over and over again.
The only problem is that "fact" is you trying to assume gen multipliers aren't a problem based on how well some of the best survivors in the world can extend a chase.
For example we all know blight is a extremely bloated killer and performs well in high ELO, but does that mean the best killers in the world have to use him to perform there? No.
That's like me showing you a game saying
"Look at this game of trapper going on his 200th game win streak, trapper is S teir" Is it trapper or is it the player?
The truth is most players even in high ELO depend on crutches, killer and survivor.
You think the best survivor players in the world in a group need to sacrifice perk slots to make gens drastically shorter?
Go watch any top killer and see how many gen rushers he goes against.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051707#Comment_4051707
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1OL4NHFQ3MH2/7b01e76711-3332-495b-b3a9-ed5d16fef197-7d.png
These are the survivor builds from the longest survivor winstreak, note the total lack of gen rush perks. These players know how to win in a SWF better than anyone.
People have went on insane win streaks with low teir killers, does that make any of the high teir killers any less better?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051941#Comment_4051941
I wouldn't worry to much about reading anything if i were you but more the English language"but more the English language"
I hate to bust on typos because everyone makes them, but its kind of funny when you are accusing someone of not comprehending English.
Your clearly saying here they are happy with both the KR and ER here.Your should be You are or You're
Anyway, I'll quote you - "Lmao no, that doesn't indicate that."
Let's break down the quote
>At no point do they say they are unhappy
This is true.
>you are relying on that post
you, not me
>Much like the quotes, you are only using part of it.
still true.
Turning your statements into little segments to run from context nicce.
That one post on here asking why some people are on this forum really does hit home now Lol
You didn't even respond to my post. What was even the point in quoting it?
Everyone makes typos but not many try to change the meaning of words to be right and ignore context just for the sake of arguing lol
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051702#Comment_4051702
YOU said they were happy about the ER which is why I questioned you where? I didnt ask you randomly like your trying to frame. Go back and read.I know reading all the words in a quote is not your strong suit, so I'll help you out.
—In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers.—
You does not mean me, it means you.
Lmao no, that doesn't indicate that.So you're repeatedly demanding me prove that BHVR has a stance that you think they have?
As I said, if you believe BHVR doesn't have a problem with the high MMR disparity, everything you used to back up your argument falls apart, so happy to have convinced you.
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm. In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers. Much like the quotes, you are only using part of it.
Your clearly saying here they are happy with both the KR and ER here. When they never said anything about the way they felt about the 48.3.
I wouldn't worry to much about reading anything if i were you but more the English language, because it seems like you think you can just make words mean what you want them to and completely ignore context.
I know
readingall the words in a quote is not your strong suit, so I'll help you out.Ironic. Lol
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051659#Comment_4051659
You're still saying SWFs as if you're not talking about a minority of a larger group. Most parties are just friends playing together and goofing off. I've played with lots of people and I've never once synced my perks with others except to meme. And the ones who are skilled and coordinating are doing stuff like MfT, WGLF, DH, DS, Soul Guard, Background Player, and Conviction so they can take hit after hit, down after down. Good players can run a killer. They don't need to slam gens.
I just think you're barking up the wrong tree here. I run Deja Vu, Built To Last, and a commodious with meta add-ons. I regularly do two to three gens alone. I can slam them all by my lonesome, solo or otherwise.
This is just not true, most swfs in high ELO gen rush. Ask any competitive killer or just go back and watch their streams.
Just because you goof off in SWFs doesnt mean thats what they do, the 48% in high ELO proves that.
being able to do a gen in 24 seconds from just synching a few perks, again shouldn't be possible.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051662#Comment_4051662
Except I'm not inventing what they didn't say. They literally never said those things.lmao what?It's a relatively easy concept, based upon your one sided demands for evidence.
It's been a mildly long discussion, so I'll walk you through it.
In BHVR's posts, that you provided, they say they are happy with the kill rates. These same posts also link the 48.3 kill rate.
You then ask - "Where did they say they were happy about the difference in group sizes in high elo or it fell in line with their balance?" (sidenote - this question pretty clearly indicates you think they are unhappy with it, it doesn't make sense to ask someone for proof of a stance you agree with)
I say - "Where did they say they weren't?"
I also say - "I'm not pretending to know what goes inside BHVR's heads."
You're demanding I prove something, but what your demanding I prove isn't my argument. I'm trying to show that your statements are unfounded. We have no absolute knowledge of their view of the 48.3 because they never directly say anything on it. Though I'd say there is pretty heavy evidence from their posts about a focus on overall averages and that they've had plenty of opportunities to address the high MMR SWF disparity, but passed on saying anything, that it doesn't actually fall outside their balance targets.
You then ask - "
Where did they say they were happy about the difference in group sizes in high elo or it fell in line with their balance?" (sidenote - this question pretty clearly indicates you think they are unhappy with it, it doesn't make sense to ask someone for proof of a stance you agree with)Lmao no, that doesn't indicate that.
+
you said
In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers.
This is the part you left out. YOU said they were happy about the ER which is why I questioned you where? I didnt ask you randomly like your trying to frame. Go back and read.
They only specifically said they were happy about the KR. I never once, brought up them being unhappy or happy about the ER, you did first. When I never said it in the first place.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051636#Comment_4051636
I’m pointing out what theydidsay, not inventing what they didn’t.Except I'm not inventing what they didn't say. They literally never said those things.
Chef: "The burger patty came out exactly how we want it. This matches our intended recipe."Me : "He specifically said the patty is how he wants it. He didn’t say that about the fries."You: "Where did he say the fries are bad? Show me"This has been a somewhat hilarious turn around. Anyway, here's what you said that I first replied to:
"Theyve aimed for 60/40 for YEARS these are the people who have alllllll the data, and they've been sticking to their guns for YEARS. Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.What in the F*** are survivors doing to pull almost 10% past the intended escape %??? the swfs in high lobbies are popping gens like popcorn. No way in the world should you be able to pop a gen in 24-26 seconds with 2 people AND have coms."Anyway, if you now want to act like there isn't a problem, great. If you want to pretend like you didn't base your argument around BHVR's KR, well that's silly based on what you said. Either way, glad to have convinced you.
Except I'm not inventing what they didn't say. They literally never said those things.
lmao what?
glad to have convinced you.
Not sure wth your talking about but i guess im glad you do.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051594#Comment_4051594
I don't think it's going to affect anyone honestly because it's such a mediocre perk. Prove Thyself saves between 6 to 12 seconds per gen. The person running it isn't likely to sit on more than two gens, and that's also if they're not alone, which is circumstantial. The only time perks like this are good is when you need to pressure a key gen. I'm just telling you this isn't what's winning people matches, nor will it hurt good, coordinated players to lose it. A commodious toolbox with swivel socket and wire spool does more than this perk. Deleting it isn't going to touch the people you want to touch.
Gen speed potential is the core reason why SWFs are so good, They maximize there perks slots with consideration of their coms and coordination. Which means they dont need to run a all-out survival build because they have coms. They can get absolute PEAK value out of certain perks and strats, that a solo player could only dream of no mater how good he is.
Prove thyself isnt the problem, no singular gen perk in the game is the problem. The problem is how a swf can generate numerous strategies around their perks as a team. The most dangerous of perks that makes this so strong are gen perks because thats the objective. Coms itself is the ultimate defense to any killer in the game, especially with a team of experienced quality players.
The thing is Swfs will always be strong, and i feel like to place limitations on them through certain perks and such. Just seems silly because not all Swfs will play on the level of players in high mmr as the data has shown. but what we can do is cap multipliers for gen speeds, to limit how fast gens CAN fly.
So swfs cant abuse them with coms. In no circumstance should a gen get done by 2 people in 24 seconds. Thats absurd.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051593#Comment_4051593
Alot of this post is just deflecting and you changing your original points to find a "gotcha"What do you think my original point is?
This is why i asked you where did they say they were happy with all of the numbers? You couldn't quote it because it wasn't there so you move the goal post and ask me….Evidence demands go both ways, you don't get to demand one side of the argument. They said they were happy with the numbers, they never made an exception to that statement.
Which is the overall point. You're relying on BHVR standards for your arguments, the burden is on you to provide the evidence. What about the 48.3% rate is outside their intended targets given that they say, in the quotes you provide, that they are looking at an average?
I never said that they said they were unhappy with the 48.3 on that page, if i did please quote it. Or are you just gonna deflect this to?You're evading the argument (or being deflective if you prefer). I never said, that you said, they were unhappy, that's trying to shift the argument by demanding I provide evidence of something I never stated. Basically you are trying to set this up that I have to prove something while you don't have to take any side at all.
What you did ask was - "Where did they say they were happy about the difference in group sizes in high elo or it fell in line with their balance?"
Demanding that one side prove they are happy about something requires an equal burden that the other side to show they are unhappy. Arguing that only one side has to provide evidence is actual deflection from a lack of evidence.
The whole premise of your argument though relies on the presumption of the 60/40 split as laid out by BHVR, throw that out and you have no argument.
more deflecting lol.No, that paragraph you wrote that I quoted was just gibberish.
So with that said what does "Intended killer balance" mean? lolThe numbers that they go for. No one has ever denied that. They have an overall target of 60%. You're trying to distract with arguments over things no one disagrees about to avoid the actual substantive issues.
This is one of the other issues with your argument - you don't seem to really have a grasp over what people are even disagreeing with you over.
lol ok lets wrap this up.
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm
You’re responding to a claim I never made. I pointed out that the devs explicitly said killer KR is in line with their intended balance. I didn’t say they were unhappy with survivor ER. I’m pointing out what they did say, not inventing what they didn’t.
You made this statement and now your trying to make me defend it when i never said it.
This is a perfect analogy of what your doing
Chef: "The burger patty came out exactly how we want it. This matches our intended recipe."
Me : "He specifically said the patty is how he wants it. He didn’t say that about the fries."
You: "Where did he say the fries are bad? Show me"
When i never said he said the fries were bad lol
This is obvious rage bait.
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if you dont care if they deleted prove
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051288#Comment_4051288
Nerfing killers and nerfing survivors are two really different things. Killers all have individual aspects to be taken separately; changes to survivor are global. I don't care at all about Prove Thyself or similar perks. They could delete them for all I care. But nerfs to the survivor role will almost certainly always affect the 95% way more the the 5% whereas nerfing, say, Nurse so she can't aura read while blinking, woud affect a drastically smaller amount of people. You can't really compare the two.
There's really no easy fix unless you have different mechanics in place for different MMR groups, like you have anti-tunnel protections that fall of once you hit upper MMR, or certain perks that disable at those levels.
If you could give a damn if they delete prove thyself or similar perks, How does putting a cap on gen multipliers gonna affect the 95% When it only can really be abused by a team with good synergy? How does that effect the 95%
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051286#Comment_4051286
You quoted yourself to respond to me.
Your saying here that they were happy with the survivor numbers in that postI'm not pretending to know what goes inside BHVR's heads. You are using these posts for them to say they are happy with the numbers. At no point do they make an exception to that statement.
i told you and proved to you they didnt now your asking me..?All you've proved is an ability to ignore words that don't fit your conclusions.
You asked me where they said they were happy with the numbers, I'm asking you where they said they weren't. Your own evidence disproves your arguments - they said the numbers fell within their intended targets for overall averages, at no point did they make any exceptions to that statement.
You right, they did bolden it, They mentioned the overall KR of killers and the KR of killers in high mmr. Which they both said falls within their balance for killers. They didn't just mention the overall KR of killers they commented on both global and high elo numbers. read.None of that makes sense.
Why would they say there considering ways to address swfs when we dont know if they even know how?You're backing up my argument that they aren't unhappy about the numbers. Now you're just quibbling about possible whys.
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Let me sum up the problems with your argument
1: You're trying to supersede the argument about KR by relying upon BHVR's statements about where they want the intended KR to be. If you are going to use them as your evidence as being the standard we all need to use to guide us, you don't get to be selective.
2: Even in relying on BHVR, you're ignoring key words they've said. 'Relatively', 'intended', 'average', while substituting different words into those quotes - you then accuse others of having trouble understanding English.
3: Even past all of that, at no point have you proven or shown your original argument about the gen speed perks being the issue and not a coordinated SWF in general just being stronger.
Alot of this post is just deflecting and you changing your original points to find a "gotcha". Are you even trying to debate your own personal point or are you just trying to win a argument, because the more you respond I'm struggling to make sense of it.
You did make me chuckle though when you pointed out that I responded to myself to respond to you lol that was just human error ill go back and fix it.
I'm not pretending to know what goes inside BHVR's heads. You are using these posts for them to say they are happy with the numbers. At no point do they make an exception to that statement.
In the post on the stats page, they talked about the killers separately based off what was being shown in the data. again.
"Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR, while that average kill rate increased to 63% for high MMR. (
This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.)"They specifically said killers, nobody is picking and choosing this is what the devs said. I'm just using the basic understanding of the English language.
You asked me where they said they were happy with the numbers, I'm asking you where they said they weren't.
I asked you because you said that they stated they were happy with all the numbers, this came straight from your mouth…
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm. (In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers).
This is why i asked you where did they say they were happy with all of the numbers? You couldn't quote it because it wasn't there so you move the goal post and ask me….
Where did they say they weren't?
So you assume something they never said, then when i ask you to quote it your response is asking me where they didn't say it? LOL what? What's even more confusing is this part
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm.
I never said that they said they were unhappy with the 48.3 on that page, if i did please quote it. Or are you just gonna deflect this to?
None of that makes sense.
more deflecting lol.
you're backing up my argument that they aren't unhappy about the numbers. Now you're just quibbling about possible whys.
I Never said they said they were unhappy about them on that stats page, quote it or you can just deflect this to if you want, but Regarding your "argument".
In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers.
If that was your argument why did you say this?
2: Even in relying on BHVR, you're ignoring key words they've said. 'Relatively', 'intended', 'average', while substituting different words into those quotes - you then accuse others of having trouble understanding English.
I mean not to be rude, but it does come down to the basic understanding of the English language. "Our intended killer balance"
Lets have a quick English lesson really quick. Google says the definition of intended - "something happened exactly as it was planned, designed, or meant to, aligning with the original purpose or goal". So with that said what does "Intended killer balance" mean? lol
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051252#Comment_4051252
They are very selective with what they show. The personal stats on their stat page are totally incorrect if you use the abandon option. They also don't include any match with a DC in it in the official stats they show us, and those are pretty much all going to be killer wins. So the data should be taken with a pound of salt. Only they know the numbers for everything.
The last time they showed us party size percentages it looked like this:
You can see how small the amount of 4mans is and that's including all brackets. Uppers who regularly play in 4mans would be the smallest, probably no more than 3% of the playerbase. The game doesn't need to be balanced around them anymore than it does the top 3% of killer players.
Also, when you see the data as whole like this, survival rates are under 40% globally.
Its gonna stay like that until they do something about that top 3% because apparently theirs enough of swfs in high mmr for them to release these bloated killers that's clearly intended to go against a strong team. Like with vecna its so obvious.
So its either nerf the killers and make Swfs unstoppable to help the majority of players. Or nerf swfs then nerf the killers in 1 update. I dont see no other option with the direction this game is heading in. Unless you have any ideas.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051250#Comment_4051250
I dont think they would cherry pick data and wright a observation about it on there stats page if it didn't matter to them, lets be realistic here. Although i do agree that not knowing how many players in the brackets cripples what we know. We can be realistic and assume that the data being presented and the constant games against Swfs in high mmr points to there being a decent amount of Swfs in high mmr
huh?
Didn't you just say this in your last post?
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm. In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers.
Your saying here that they were happy with the survivor numbers in that post, i told you and proved to you they didnt now your asking me..?
Where did they say they weren't?
They're clearly looking at overall average numbers. They even bolded it. They have ample opportunity to say something like 'we're considering ways to address the SWF disparity', but they don't, they say the numbers fall in line with their balance targets.
I dont think you really read what they said, they were specifically talking about the killers KR overall and in high mmr. It says right there "killer balance" lmao.
You right, they did bolden it, They mentioned the overall KR of killers and the KR of killers in high mmr. Which they both said falls within their balance for killers. They didn't just mention the overall KR of killers they commented on both global and high elo numbers. read.
They have ample opportunity to say something like 'we're considering ways to address the SWF disparity', but they don't, they say the numbers fall in line with their balance targets.
Lol quote to me in that post where they said the survivors ER data all fell within their intended balance? They said that about killer.
Why would they say there considering ways to address swfs when we dont know if they even know how? We see the killers they release and keep strong and its pretty obvious how they try to handle it.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051246#Comment_4051246
You don't know what data matters to them. This is just what they show us, and it's cherry picked. Knowing percentages without knowing the size of the brackets is borderline useless. Most likely the players in the 30s are so much bigger than the one in the 48 that it evens out to 40.
I dont think they would cherry pick data and wright a observation about it on there stats page if it didn't matter to them, lets be realistic here. Although i do agree that not knowing how many players in the brackets cripples what we know. We can be realistic and assume that the data being presented and the constant games against Swfs in high mmr points to there being a decent amount of Swfs in high mmr
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051233#Comment_4051233
You also have no idea how many people are in that 48% bracket. There could be 50,000 in a lower one and 1,000 in the upper. That number is important.
Thats true, but its clearly enough players for the data to matter to them.
They dgaf about a few sus players running around with a 90% KR.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051216#Comment_4051216
Ifixed it for you.You changed quoted words from relatively even to balanced. That's not fixing, that's a different meaning.
"Our intended killer balance"Other thing I'll point out - when they give the following quote
"We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed."
it comes from the same place that they give the image with 48.3% escape rate.
At no point do they say they are unhappy with the 48.3 or its outside that there norm. In fact, you are relying on that post for BHVR saying they are overall happy with the numbers. Much like the quotes, you are only using part of it.
I just fixed it to make it say what they actually said, not some made up crap to rage bait.
Of course, there’s more to a Trial than just Killers. Let’s take a look at how Survivors have fared!
Overall escape rates tended to be quite close across MMR brackets, with all MMR seeing a 41% escape rate and high MMR landing at 42%. Digging into specific party sizes is where the results differed.
Unsurprisingly, coordinated groups playing at high MMR performed best, resulting in the highest escape rate. Interestingly, however, solo queue players in the wider MMR bracket proved to be particularly hardy, falling above the overall escape rate.
But with that, we’ll see you again in July to share the next 3 months of Killer and Survivor stats.
Until next time…
Where did they say they were happy about the difference in group sizes in high elo or it fell in line with their balance?
All they said was they weren't surprised that 4 mans in high mmr performed better because even they know good players + teamwork = strong asf. They never said they were happy about the differences.
They specifically said that killers KR being at 63% in high mmr largely falls within there killer balance. Is that a surprise when they said 60% is what they strive for?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051184#Comment_4051184
That player with the 90% KR is a outlier in the data. The data in his mmr suggest he is among the top of the top amongst great players. He cant be brought up in a conversation about balance when we know nothing about him while hes sitting at the top 0.5%. Data suggest amongst the entirety of high mmr Swfs have a major advantage.
I said "people," not just one. There are people in this forum with 80-90% KRs.
But you can make this exact same argument for upper MMR survivors. BHVR never said how many people are included in that particular stat. The numbers are probably so different because the group is no where near as large as the others. Whenever they've shown the size of 4mans it's always miniscule compared to everyone else. Both 85%+ KR killers and high ER upper MMR 4mans are going to be a tiny slice of the playerbase and nothing should fully revolve around either of these groups. If the perks aren't performing crazy in every bracket then they're not an issue. Otherwise you'd also have to look at the perks those 90% KR killers are using and nerf them too. It's no different.
You have no data to prove how many players have insane KRs like that, even when you look at individual killers KR in high MMR none of them come close to 90%. Which proves these are a very very very small percentage of people, the top amongst the top, we know nothing about them. They stand out, outside of great players statistically. For all we know majority of these anomalies could be cheaters. Your just saying they exist which proves nothing. These are individual players.
But what we do know is that amongst the entirety of high ELO 4 mans perform nearly 10% above their targeted %.
You cant compare the ER of the all SWFs in high elo to a single killers KR, because they play everybody.
If 4 mans have a 48% ER in high mmr, and a single killer like blight has a 69% KR in high mmr, and blight plays against solos, duos, trios along with swfs. If that blight gets to go against those lower performing groups aside from the swfs, why are 4 mans in high elo boosted by 8%? and blight only 9%? If blights are stomping in high mmr against solos why isnt it much higher?
So if blights only went against swfs, what would that do to his KR? hmmmmm. I wonder.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051204#Comment_4051204
This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.
You keep omitting this specific word.
This isn't them saying it's balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'relatively even', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
It's not balanced, it's slanted in the killers' favour to serve the horror theme.
This isn't them saying it's balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'relatively even', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
This is what they think is balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'balanced', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
I fixed it for you.
This is weird rage bait, "Our intended killer balance" there calling the point which is 60% for killer to be balanced, LITTERALLY. What you think is balanced in a video game doesn't matter its subjective.
what agenda are you trying to push on here to be in such denial over the english language?
I guess your rage bait was pretty good because I fell for it lol
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051187#Comment_4051187
Again, they're saying that it's at the intended point, but they're not saying it's balanced.
"This largely falls in line with our killer balance"
read it one more time "our killer balance", 60% falls within THEIR killer "Balance". There saying in exact words that 60% is what they deem to be balanced for killer.
Are you trolling?
Again, they're saying that it's at the intended point
You made this up lmao, nowhere did they just say it was just at a certain "point" they liked.
They outright LITERALLY said its at there intended balance for killer.
"our killer balance"
Weather if its balanced to you or not doesn't matter to them, its what they feel like its balanced for their game, and they've held that belief for years.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050983#Comment_4050983
They out right said its for balance.
No, they said that 60% is where they want it to be, while specifically saying that it is only 'relatively even', and that it serves the horror theme.
They never said that 60/40 IS balanced. Only that that's where they want it to be.
No, they said that 60% is where they want it to be, while specifically saying that it is only 'relatively even', and that it serves the horror theme.
"relatively even" means close to equal bro but not identical but if you want them literally flat out saying it here you go.
Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR, while that average kill rate increased to 63% for high MMR. This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.
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There's nothing you can do to hurt specifically high-performing SWF that won't also hurt soloq and average-performing SWF. And again, gen multipliers are not the issue with thise players anyway. They coordinate Endurance perks like WGLF and MfT. Funny enough the people I usually see use perks like Prove Thyself are soloqers. People not on coms can just say "I have Prove Thyself" in pre game chat if they felt so inclined.
All survivors need is hyperfocus and 1 survivor running prove thyself and those 2 survivors are popping gens every 20 sum seconds with toolboxes. Swfs in high ELO are coordinated teams. They plan, they actually talk lmao.
There are many people in this forum that do say it, that upper MMR soloqers often get there by riding the backs of SWF.
This is just wishful thinking
It's like this for both sides. I don't stand a chance against a good Nurse or Blight. It's an auto lose in the lobby.
Swfs in high elo beat them with coms and coordination. Its not easy no matter what killer your playing when your facing a good swf. Playing against a good nurse and blight while Solo Qing is probably a stomp though.
I've met people with 90% KRs. That means they're basically winning all their matches and are certainly in upper MMR, and they're winning against those 4mans. You can beat those teams if you're good enough. If you're new to upper MMR or relied on cheese to get there then yeah, you're going to lose. As you should. The top players should really only be playing against one another but matchmaking and there only being so many of those people on each server makes that impossible, so you get stomped by the better players when you meet them.
That player with the 90% KR is a outlier in the data. The data in his mmr suggest he is among the top of the top amongst great players. He cant be brought up in a conversation about balance when we know nothing about him while hes sitting at the top 0.5%. Data suggest amongst the entirety of high mmr Swfs have a major advantage.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050944#Comment_4050944
The devs themselves have said that they aim for a 60/40 for balance on both sides. This is what they said. Theyve aimed for 60/40 for YEARS these are the people who have alllllll the data, and they've been sticking to their guns for YEARS. Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.This goes both ways.
If you're going to believe BHVR must be right on these decisions because they have the data we don't, then their decision not to nerf perks and/or SWF must also be because they have all the data.
They also never have said that the 60/40 is a rate that applies to every single scenario, but an overall target, and its not their only game balancing metric.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050983#Comment_4050983
The quote shows @Firellius points
"relatively even"
"horror themed"
"intended killer balance"
They never say '60% is a balanced rate'. It's relatively balanced (not absurdly broken like a 70 to 80 would be, while still keeping the killer a 'force to be reckoned with') and its their intended balance - not a normal balance metric, but what they go for.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050929#Comment_4050929
You're framing it in the best possible scenario for the survivors and worst for the killer. The survivor has no exhaustion to help escape, no anti-tunnel, no healing to help recover, etc. That's the thing about all out builds (on either side, really), under a perfect scenario they seem extremely powerful, but if another scenario occurs they can become very weak, very fast.
It's possible that build is broken. BHVR has the data and would know for certain, but there's lots of reasons why the build might not succeed.
It's possible its bad game design. If so, its a larger issue with the game.
If you're going to believe BHVR must be right on these decisions because they have the data we don't, then their decision not to nerf perks and/or SWF must also be because they have all the data.
them nerfing perks and swfs directly is clearly not their approach to address them. They release killers like vecna instead, also i never said they were right about all there decisions because they have all the data. I said I'm pretty sure theirs a good reason they decide to balance the game around 60/40, since they have for years that doesn't mean they cant make a bad decision.
They also never have said that the 60/40 is a rate that applies to every single scenario, but an overall target, and its not their only game balancing metric.
they said that killers having 60% kr across all MMR largely falls within their "killer balance" so 40% should be applied to all MMRs and group sizes.
They never say '60% is a balanced rate'. It's relatively balanced (not absurdly broken like a 70 to 80 would be, while still keeping the killer a 'force to be reckoned with') and its their intended balance - not a normal balance metric, but what they go for.
Balance is subjective, 60/40 to the dev team is balanced. It was literally word for word stated.
Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR... This largely falls in line with ourintended Killer balanceThis is literally stating 60% kill rate across all mmrs is what they deem the killer role to be balanced.
We try to keep Killers near a60% kill rateon average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed.There's no point in being delusional about words this is literally stating 60% KR is intended for in other words "close to equal but not identical" games. Which is why they said 60% largely falls within there intended "killer balance"
You're framing it in the best possible scenario for the survivors and worst for the killer. The survivor has no exhaustion to help escape, no anti-tunnel, no healing to help recover, etc. That's the thing about all out builds (on either side, really), under a perfect scenario they seem extremely powerful, but if another scenario occurs they can become very weak, very fast.
Which is why these builds are broken in the hands of SWFs, having coms, changes the game. Communication in Dbd against a killer opens up so many doors and opportunities.
It's possible that build is broken. BHVR has the data and would know for certain, but there's lots of reasons why the build might not succeed.
The reasons for it working and not working well, is not balanced.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050944#Comment_4050944
Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced
They don't.
They said it's the target they aim for, but not that it's 'balanced'.
this is a quote straight for a developer
"We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed."
"Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR... This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance."
They out right said its for balance.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050962#Comment_4050962
It's logical to assume the data pool for upper MMR 4mans is outrageously small compared to everyone else since getting four great players together is likely difficult. So those stats probably represent the smallest group of players by a longshot. And four great players should beat most people. That's just logical. I'd never expect to stand a chance against a comp team. They should win. 48% is kinda trash for people that are that good. They can't even average winning half their matches.
If killers stomp against soloq by default, that's a problem. They shouldn't be fodder for killers, yet you want survivor nerfs that will hurt soloq and not really touch a high-performing, coordinated team.
I actually want the opposite, i want gen multipliers capped. And bloated killers NERFED. That literally does the opposite of affecting solo Q because solo Q players arent gen rushing abusing multipliers with coms. That actually helps solo Q,.
Outrageously smaller is a heavy exaggeration, is it less swfs then solos and duos in high mmr yes most likely.
If your solo Qing in high mmr your a good player, it makes no sense to call someone solo Qing in high mmr a bad player (i know u didnt say that). Swfs arent OP because the players in them are just, SOOO much better then solo Qers.
Their better because its 4 good players that have prepped, are coordinated and on coms. That changes everything. That's a unmatched level of gen rushing and a new a unmatched level of awareness. Which is why there a fat 8% above solo Qers.
48% is almost 10% above there targeted %, you cant really compare it to the Top killers when there stats are bloating off stomping non Swfs.
And four great players should beat most people. That's just logical. I'd never expect to stand a chance against a comp team. They
shouldwin.So a killer playing in high mmr should just feel helpless against a swf and just accept the fact hes gonna lose and theirs nothing he can do about it? Does that not go against the entire point of this game? Lmao, so nerf the bloated killers that are the only ones that stand a chance against a Swf in high mmr because there over performing against Solo Qers, but dont touch swf because 4 good players in a group are suppose to win? lmao
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050944#Comment_4050944
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RW0ODAWH847Y/screenshot-20260130-020151.jpg
Then, by your logic, I guess all these killers need nerfs.
Those killer stats are bloated because in high mmr theirs solo,duo and trios. All of them have 40% ER. Swfs in high mmr are literally the ONLY group that out performs everyone.
If a good blight is one of the best killers to play against a Coordinated swf to have a chance. Wth do you think that blight is most likely gonna do to solo Qers in high mmr? Hes gonna stomp, and if blights go around stomping solo Qers but from time to time gets humbled by a swf hes gonna have bloated stats.
Now if a killer is trash at high mmr, there gonna have issues with everybody. Swfs makes this game unbalanced and their sheer existence warrants the keeping of bloated killers.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050929#Comment_4050929
Those are my personal stats, as someone who plays in parties, from the official BHVR stat tracker, regularly running several of the perks you're talking about.
But sure, the offical escape rates by party and MMR are very commonly displayed:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TC2WPLCWNXEE/screenshot-20260129-235936.jpg
The only ones that do exceptional are the high MMR 4mans, who are only so common, and 48% isn't exactly amazing for the world's best players. Solo survivors in all other brackets has the highest ER.
Its funny how your response to 2 survivors popping a gen in 20 seconds. is a sheet that further proves whos doing it.
The devs themselves have said that they aim for a 60/40 for balance on both sides. This is what they said. Theyve aimed for 60/40 for YEARS these are the people who have alllllll the data, and they've been sticking to their guns for YEARS. Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.
What in the F*** are survivors doing to pull almost 10% past the intended escape %??? the swfs in high lobbies are popping gens like popcorn. No way in the world should you be able to pop a gen in 24-26 seconds with 2 people AND have coms.
Skull merchant has the highest kill rate record EVER which was like 70% when she was BROKEN ASF and they nerfed her to the ground. Anytime a killers target % rises as high as SWFs are right now they get nerfed to the ground, because behavior has said countless times 60/40 is balanced.
Well SWFs are 8% above the targeted balance. According to the devs, 60/40 is balanced so 60/50 is not balanced.
Popping a gen as fast as 4 mans can shouldn't be possible it just shouldn't.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050920#Comment_4050920
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/E6IPLQMZ9M7I/screenshot-20260129-224930.jpg
Yeah, I'll try to remember what it does.
I bring the Commodious with meta add-ons too, and I don't get gens done anywhere near that fast. The boogeyman you're describing is me yet it's still only a 44% ER. Can't hold a candle to the 80%+ KR killers. I'd rather deal with a gen jockey with my build as killer than teams with DH, DS, MfT, Background Player, Boil Over, and WGLF with sabo toolboxes and flashlights.
Like its literally a joke what SWFs are capable of. Alot of you survivors who only solo Q and dont really play killer like that have no idea ######### really goes on.
Idk who "you survivors" is because I play SWF and killer. Soloqing is rare for me.
But I'm asking again, what anti-tunnel and camp measures have been rolled out?
It doesnt matter how fast you personally get gens done if someone is running
- Full circuit
- Hyperfocus
- Built To Last
- Deja Vu
- Toolbox
with prove thyself + toolbox…The generator gets done approximately 24-26 seconds realistically. That's INSANE.
I'm talking about SWFs here im not talking about a global escape rate from a unofficial site. Unless you can go find me some official data on that.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050881#Comment_4050881
First, that's outrageously uncommon. The very rare niche gen rush build requires luck with Bardic and set up in hanging around the killer's TR to get tokens on Stake Out. Even when I was running a Commdious with meta add-ons, Deja Vu, and old Streetwise I wasn't getting gens done that fast. Hard tunneling at 5 gens happens to me way more than someone bringing a build like that as either killer or survivor. Second, you said:
They punish camping and tunneling yet leave gen rush untouched.
And I'm asking you in which ways these things have been punished by "they" which I assume is the devs.
You fail to realize just how broken gen rushing is right now
If you run
- Full circuit
- Hyperfocus
- Built To Last
- Deja Vu
- Toolbox
And your team mate runs prove thyself with a toolbox aswell
the game can start and they can hop on a gen and pop it in 20 seconds lmao And dont forget what built to last does…
Like its literally a joke what SWFs are capable of. Alot of you survivors who only solo Q and dont really play killer like that have no idea wth really goes on.
Btw i never said what you quoted.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050866#Comment_4050866
How have camping and tunneling been punished? With ptbs that never made it to live?
Camping and tunneling doesn't = to a single survivor popping a gen in 30 sum seconds.
If a survivor is popping gens like that you better do what ever tf you can or that's your as*, and most of the time its still your as*
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
with how oppressive mobility killers + Gen regression are. You cannot blame survivors for being optimal to counter it.
It sucks, but they need to give survivors more reason to do other things aside from gens. Like chests etc, there is only what 3 on the map baseline.
That said lower tier killers need buffs, that's a given lolThere not doing gens to counter it there doing gens because that's the objective, they dont know what killer there gonna face, there builds and toolboxes are in their hands before they know anything. Dont matter who you play your gonna get gen rushed. If they wanna win there gonna do gens fast.
You can play high mobility killers all you want. If there gen rushing, you better get consistent 25 second downs. If your spreading hooks you better get consistent 10 second downs, and that's with really good killers. If your playing killers with bad mobility you might as well go grab you a toolbox and help them.
Gen potential is the real issue, lower it. Nobody should be popping a gen by themselves in 30 sum seconds.
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@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050763#Comment_4050763
This wasnt your question
It actually was my question, and still remains unanswered.
This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
The thing you are quoting here isn't a contradiction. I was stating why it would be helpful to reduce tunneling. I would still like to hear why it would be problematic for killers. It would greatly help me understand your POV if you could actually use your words here.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face
I have been working on this, but can't seem to find a suggestion that isn't exploitable by high-level survivors. Open to whatever you have to suggest.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years
I never said this. I explain my concerns with tunneling in a previous reply to you, please go read it again (or for the first time if you skipped over it).
The rest of your comment is unwarranted advice, considering I already stated my stance on not caring about escaping lmao. The tone is also coming off as very condescending, and you put words I didn't say or even imply in my mouth multiple times. With this in mind, I'm going to respectfully decline to respond to it.
Well if i ever said you implied something that you didnt, you can easily just tell me what that was instead of just accusing me of it for more transparency. This response seems a bit passive aggressive in nature so il respond in a way to deescalate if any is there.
The thing you are quoting here isn't a contradiction. I was stating why it would be helpful to reduce tunneling. I would still like to hear why it would be problematic for killers. It would greatly help me understand your POV if you could actually use your words here.
It was a contradiction because you clearly said
I don't see how those few seconds of delay would affect much at all (based on my own experience and how I use the HUD).
Here comes the clear contradiction
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries.
You claimed to not see how those few seconds would affect anything at all based on your own experience, but then say in a later post that it would greatly impact tunneling while away from the hook. That is contradiction.
You also said this…
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it
is a good thing(for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the topmaybe10% of players)To me, this seems like your implying tunneling is to strong/OP to be countered reasonably unless playing against top teir SWFs, and that's just simply not true.
And what makes the changes problematic is that it nerfs a killer for no reason, and its not a direct nerf that targets something that can be done in a toxic way. besides the slugging change you suggested, but the reality is. If a killer said to himself "im gonna troll and just slug". If he downs a survivor on first hook and leaves him there and camps, he will lose. If he goes around slugging with no hooks, he will slowly lose. None of the changes directly help with toxic situations, only strategic ones.
These changes would only nerf a killer using those methods in a actual fair, strategic way.
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@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050324#Comment_4050324
If a killer is staying out of anti-camp range to prevent a self-unhook, then the 3 seconds would help in a lot of cases, actually. It's quite easy to distract many different killers for a moment or two while another teammate swoops in for a quick rescue. Maybe you throw a pebble at a locker that is near the hook, but not in the current direction the killer is looking in. Maybe you start a gen right behind them so they want to turn around and kick it or try to grab you off of it. I'm not saying that adding a HUD delay would 100% fix every tunneling problem ever, but it would help in a variety of situations.
Why nerf something that does nothing to actual HARD tunneling?
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries. I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
I can think of a ton of things that would help with hard tunneling with camping you are thinking of, but you (and many others, myself included tbh) would hate them because they would be exploitable/broken if used improperly (which we all know will happen). I mean, look at what happened in the PTB when we tried to do something that would actually help this lol. If you have a stronger, yet non-exploitable suggestion for a fix, I would love to hear it because I can't think of one myself.
Also trying to stop a basic fundamental strategy in a killer / survivor game just doesn't make any sense there are plenty ways to deal with something as ancient as tunneling in this game
I recommend reading my replies to another user here. They're a bit lengthy, but explain the logic pretty clearly.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049814#Comment_4049814
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050220#Comment_4050220
Specifically, this if you don't want to read it all:
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
and:
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
Unless your going against a baby killer those 3 seconds would change literally nothing, if a killer is looking at a hook and they want to tunnel, there gonna tunnel. There only gonna be distracted by the person actually getting the person off the hook if they wanted to HARD tunnel. A information nerf when a killer is literally monitoring the hook (hard tunneling) changes nothing.
And hard tunneling is the most anoyying version of tunneling to go against,
I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
This wasnt your question
What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook?This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries.
you implied it wasn't that much of a difference, then said it was. You just want to nerf killers getting info on a survivor being unhooked that ONLY works when there doing other things, other then monitoring the hook. Killers shouldn't get a info nerf for doing other things on the map when someone is hooked. That's not hard tunneling.
A Killer having to run off and do other things instead of monitoring a hook should be the goal when it comes to tunneling. A killer shouldn't get nerfed for doing that.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years. The reason its still here after time and time again because it just isnt. There's tons of counters to it, and if its that "unfun" play a different game honestly.
Getting tunneled to me makes me better in chases and gives me a chance to embarrass a killer and loop him for 3 gens. Its not always about winning. Its ok to die as survivor nobody is mad at you for it. Switch up the builds and try new things based off what you want to experience.
Pay attention to how you lose, and think of ways to prevent it next time. that's the problem, players dont feel like learning new things so they complain and look for nerfs out of pure laziness. a "average level player" doesn't have to be "average" forever. Your mindset will determine if you will be or not.
I use to be a terrible survivor but the more i played and paid attention to things I struggled with, I got better, same with killer. If you just scream "OP" your just giving your brain cope to not improve and learn.
Something that is OP is something that is very strong with little to no counterplay, that's not tunneling.
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@Classic_Rando said:
It’s clear that DC penalties are still not harsh enough
This. DCing is really bad right now they need to make the timer longer or something, nobody is gonna quit DBD cause they cant quit a game the first minute they feel like there losing. up the penalties and let them cry.
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It wasn't really a nerf, they just fixed a bug that allowed for a tech most ghouls didn't use anyway.
Also being able to just hide behind a structure when he grabs you in line of site to avoid his mend that was intentionally made to be easy to hit like legion is just unneeded counter play, he already has a ton of counter play already.
As far as him being able to mend a survivor on a roof while below that should definitely be looked at.