Why do they never address why killers actually tunnel ?
The devs keep bringing up that tunneling, camping and slugging are unhealthy parts of the game, but never why they accure. A big component as to why these situations happen is because the killer role just doesn´t have enough tools to combat things like fast gen speeds, rapid healing speeds or just purely unbalanced maps.
When are tool boxes going to be addressed ?
I think the biggest reason for tunneling is gens speeds and that the average killer mathematically can not keep up with a commodious tool box and addons like Socket swivels, Wire spool and Brand new part. If you´ve ever played on EU servers then you probably know the dread of seeing a tool box or two in your lobby as killer and going against multiple brand new parts leaving you with no option but to tunnel. Not to mention that even if a survivor doesn´t have a tool box they are going to spawn next to a generator and can instantly start working on it (that is if you don´t have corrupt intervention or mobility), which puts the killer at a severe disadvantage.
When are healing speeds going to be addressed ?
In the recent developer stream they have mentioned that they are going to look at addons like syringes and styptics, but that still doesn´t change the fact that a lot of healing perks this year got massively buffed making strategies like hit&run way less impactful. While antiheal perks like sloppy butcher and franklins got heavely nerfed. Which leads killers to do the next best thing, which is tunneling and camping.
Are there any options even left ?
If the antitunnel, camp and slugging changes go through I don´t think the killer has any option but to, well play like a bot. Just instakick the freshly added 20 pallets to every map and go after the first survivor you see. Which at that point why not impelement killer bots into normal matches because to be frank, I doubt anyone is going to play a role with no agency and no choices to choose from. An opinion which is already being echoed by content creators taking breaks from playing killer.
Comments
Ah yes, the dreaded SWF and the proposal to punish people for playing with their friends. Being in a SWF doesn't magically make the generators go faster, nor does it automatically translate into a loss for the killer, nor does it mean that they're Team Eternal.
To call it out like it is would be to say that killers tunnel because they can. They don't need a reason to tunnel; it's simply more efficient to do so.
People complained about medkits, so bhvr flattened the entire category so that each medkit only guarantees a single full heal without add-ons.
Predictably, Survivors responded by foregoing medkits or bringing the syringe add-on. Those who decided to forego medkits brought toolboxes instead.
As much as killers hate it, because healing ruins the "hit and run" playstyle, healing keeps survivors off gens — the main objective that will power the gates.
Yawn You know as well as I do why SWF is op and why it's ruining game balance with the entire laundry list of game mechanics they circumvent for Killer and how much they get from comms and even the lack of comms, you just don't care because it benefits you.
The team doesn't have to be Team Eternal, I play with friends who are literally awful, beyond awful, but we often win just because we are in discord and are able to make callouts that are impossible in SoloQ… things that ruin a Killers playstyle, mechanics and perks. Then I play SoloQ and it's literally the most miserable experience possible through lack of real matchmaking as well as how outright toxic the Killers are. The difference is night and nuclear explosion.
High MMR 4-man SWFs not only play optimally, but they've also optimized communication.
Your average SWF that you see from Low to Mid MMR is intidistinguishible from a team of Solo Queue players. Streamers, and the DBD community, have tried very hard to paint this narrative that all SWFs are equal and that Solo Queue players are bad. The reality is that neither is true.
The laundry list of mechanics they circumvent for the killer must be incredibly small. Unless, of course, you meant exploit.
Because of basic maths? As long as DBD remains an 1v4 game (aka forever and ever), tunneling will always remain a prime efficiency strategy for killer. That's just how it is.
That's objectively not true lol In no way shape or form are low to mid SWF indistinguishable from SoloQ. Often in SoloQ there's a DC, which BHVR doesn't even account for nor release stats on, that's not happening in SWF, not even low tier. The only way SoloQ is enjoyable is if paired with a SWF team. Though then the Killer usually DCs.
Not all SWF are equal, but that's no different than how all SoloQ players are not equal… however, their is a baseline average in both of those sides. SWF are generally overtuned for the game, SoloQ is generally undertuned of the game, which literally is why the game remains unbalanced with BHVR scrambling to release fixes, which don't do much of anything.
It's funny because the more people I'm in a party with, the less serious I play. I'm only dead serious in soloq, but in a 4man, it's butt slaps and memeing.
I really wonder what people think they'll achieve with this scapegoating. All people do is complain about how miserable soloq is. Is the goal to make everyone as unhappy as they are?
To be fair, if it isn't possible to tunnel, killers would be forced to manage the 1v4 differently.
The only reason it's a prime efficiency strategy (sort of- the act itself is very inefficient but you're trading that for later efficiency) for killer is because of the fact that chasing someone who was just unhooked is significantly easier than chasing anyone else. If that changed, it wouldn't be a worthwhile trade anymore, and tunnelling would stop being the most optimal strategy- you'd have to manage the 1v4 instead of trying to turn it into a 1v3 as soon as possible.
Of course this post gets voted down more because the survivor players are always biased towards one side and so are the devs
This comment perfectly sums it all up.
If we could get a way to deter killers from tunneling, by making it much more inefficient, I am sure there would be no more reason to attempt it.
Though it would also most likely give rise to other "easy cheese" strategies instead.
There is a saying that the game would be optimized to death.
I got banned for saying "this is incredibly stupid, do you understand what you are doing?" was this mean? Yes. Is it true that these devs are making very unorthodox decisions that can have adverse effects on the games long term health if it isn't balanced with the precision of a brain surgeon? Also yes. Please not that I am still banned at this moment in time.
Agreed carrot clearly isn't working you need stick too.
SWF aren't overtuned for the game. They have no mechanical advantage over SoloQ.
Even comms aren't inherently advantageous. You have to know to communicate effectively to get the most out of comms. The enjoyability of SoloQ is entirely irrelevant. As for DCs, that depends on matchmaking.
SoloQ has a wide variety of skill ranges, with as wide a variety of reasons why someone might be playing badly. The baseline average is MMR. At Low - Mid MMR, a team of SWFs cannot be distinguished from a team of SoloQ players unless they do something very obvious to highlight that they're a SWF or SoloQ.
The perception that SWF is overpowered stems from years of anecdotes based on a handfull of games. Hardly enough to form a definitive conclusion, let alone an accurate data representation.
The fact that duos lose more than SoloQ players (-0.24%), while Trios only barely win more than Solos (+0.22%) shows that overall SWFs are not overpowered. They may win more at high MMR, but that's because DBD was not balanced for high level competitive play where efficiency and optimal play are the fundamentals to winning.
Problems arise when you have a full SWF, but I would hazard a guess that most full SWFs are playing to win, especially at High MMR.
As for DCs, Bhvr takes them into account by not including them in kill rates. They absolutely have data on DCs, though. Data they're not obligated to share.
as long as there is a team and the game pushes "team work" there should be comms to be able to work as a team. This is part of the reason i play survivor the way i do, i play selfishly, i use my team mates as tools to get the gens done and when gens are done i escape, i dont save them, i dont take hits for them. the hate i get is mindblowing lol but the bottom line is, if people want me to play as a team player then give me the means to do so. untill then i will continue to play as a solo player.
One of the main issues with soloq are people like me apparently, that dont save and dont work as a team, comms would enable me and many others like me to play as a team and it would improve the quality of solo matches. if people dont want to use comms or dont want to hear it they dont have to, thats what mute is for… they would be in the same position they are in now with no comms but people like me would use it to improve the soloq experience.
The idea that the only possible strategies for killer are tunneling, camping, and hit and run is detached from reality. Hit and run is a strategy even more brainless and more boring than tunneling/camping and should be as discouraged as possible
No "everyone" did not love it. Everyone you played with might have, but nobody I know who played the game used the in-game voice chat. They still used Discord.
What other strategies are there, genius ? Cause you´re not left with much when you "discourage" everything the killer has.
Just a quick question….
If tunneling, slugging, facecamping, proxy camping, 3 gening, hit and run, and creating dead zones are completly removed.
Which form of strategy has the killer left except "Find Survivor A, chase till he is down, pick up, hook and reapeat at Survivor B?"
Medkits copped a nerf specifically to keep hit-and-run in.
That wasn´t my question.
My question was "IF" all these unfun aspects of the game are removed. What Playstyle is left?
And is the Playstyle i described the wished one? Because I guess you really can programm a Killer Bot for this.
Then your question just dives into an irrelevant, theoretical situation.
'Well if everything but chasing is nerfed…'
But that's not happening.
'And is the playstyle I described the wished one?'
Evidently not, since Hit-and-run is still in the game and no one complains about it. Also, while 3-genning can no longer lock up a match for 60 minutes until the server time-out hands the killer the win because it erroneously assumes that only survivors can run the clock out like that, it's still in the game as a viable tool.
It is a simple question and yes it is theoretical. (I didn´t ask what the devs are doing but what the survivor mains which are clearly unhappy about these tactics would say is the perfect playstyle for a Killer)
Now after that is clea… IF all aspects which are condemd to be lazy, cheap or boring to face are removed. What playstyle is left?
I know you like your "whataboutism" facts so you don´t have to answer my questions and you don´t have to answer them if you don´t know an answer to them because I know that I have no clear answer which Playstyle would be the "optimal playstyle" for Killers which would survivors like to see so that they can say "Yes this game is balanced".
Alternative question which amount of Tunneling, Slugging, Hit and Running etc. hits the sweet spot for everyone?
I mean… We've already talked about hit-and-run and gen defense.
I get that you really want to create the notion that there's nothing the killer can do except committed chases, in an effort to make survivors appear unreasonable, but that's distinctly not true.
I'm sorry, but it's incredibly hypocritical to accuse someone else of whataboutism when I'm specifically responding to your
'Well, what if [thing that isn't happening] were to happen, hm!?'
You're 'whatabouting' about a scenario that you, yourself have admitted is completely fictional.
Also, I don't recall ever interacting with you so 'I know you like your 'whataboutism'' makes it sound like you're either cliquing or ban dodging.
If survivors cared about balance, you'd see a lot more complaints about the 60% KR benchmark that the devs are aiming at, because it's an admission that the game is being balanced against them.
You could even design the anti-tunnel in such a way that killrates increase and you'd probably not hear a peep, unless it goes overboard. But tunnelling chops off huge components of survivor gameplay, making for stale and boring matches, and people are tired of it. People are quitting over it too, which is why BHVR wants to take action.
I know that Survivors are quitting because of these things and I agree with you that they need fine tuning.
Thats why I am asking: What is the desiered playstyle that would make survivors happy?
I don´t want a discussion about what the devs do nor I want to frame that killers can´t do anything else.
I want to know "What is the Playstyle a Killer should play so that survivors stop deinstall the game"
There is no singular desired playstyle. There's multiple ways you can play that survivors enjoy going up against.
Just not tunnelling, slugging, camping, or a 60-minute lock-out.
You are still dodging my question.
You say there are multible ways that a killer can play except Tunneling, Slugging, Camping etc. but you won´t say which.
I said I am afraid that the playstyle the game boils down too after all the things which you say are not the desired ones is: Killer chases Survivor A till he is hooked. Goes to Survivor B and repeat.
If there is more please enlight me.
Thats my whole question. IF all unwanted, cheap, skillless playstyles wouldnt be used. Which playstyles are left.
We literally already talked about two!
I'm not gonna take your hand and walk you through every complexity that DBD has to offer. I'm not even the most competent killer player to give you that advice. But I've already told you about two tactical elements that you are now claiming I've never mentioned.
You already said this isn't happening!
I know this is what you want to be happening because that way you have something to be outraged about, but it isn't. The devs have already taken action in the past specifically to protect Hit-and-Run as a playstyle, for example. And 3-genning is still a viable tool, just not to run the clock out for the full 60 minutes. They specifically stated that they erred on the side of caution and chose a gen-kick number that is well, well above the average. (In conjunction with boosting the value of each of those kicks)
I already did. We moved past this point. To revert to it now is purely disingenuous.
So you are telling me that Hit and Run and smaller amount of patrolling a 3 gen is the optimal goal or a good game for you?
I wonder why Legionis hated so much if constant healing vs Hit and Run is so much fun…
Why Skull Merchant was a problem when 3 gen is the funnier tactic…
Excuse me but this doesn´t sound like a good match to me and I bet with you that these strategies if they will become Meta will be even more hated.
This is what I mean! You don't WANT an answer, because that'll get in the way of your hysterics!
Yeah, sure, Legion, take the most egregious example of not just perma-injury but perma-MENDING and just omit any other example of hit-and-run.
And Skull Merchant was SPECIFICALLY a problem because of running the clock, which I already mentioned IS off the table.
Be honest with yourself: Do you WANT any answer other than 'No, I want you to play like a bot'?
It is part of a discussion that I give you my opinion on your arguments.
I ask a question (Which playstyles make this game fun?)
You give me the answer (Hit and run and 3 Gening is viable)
I ask again (Thats what is fun for you and give examples why I think it will be not fun if these are playstyles which are enabled.)
I want an answer to my question ofcourse, because I like this game and I don´t want that survivors nor Killers are unhappy with it. So let me give you examples of playstyles and why they are disliked by me and many others.
Endgame builds: Personally I don´t fall oftern for them since I run counterforce in most of my matches and destroy totems so that noed is no problem which is most of the time a staple perk for these builds. The Problem is that with perks like remember me it is important to tunnel the obsession out and there is the tunneling problem again…
Playing on Devour Hope: I kinda like this builds myself. you don´t need to tunnel and you can´t camp if you want an effect from the perk. The big problem is if these build would become meta everyone would just hunt the totems down and you are completly perkless.
These would be two playstyles but they aren´t very consistent.
But you started with an extreme (all the killer strategies being eliminated) and are trying to work back from that to a more neutral discussion, that kind of poisons the well.
If I started off with 'when loops are eliminated, pallets are eliminated, items are trashed, healing is impossible, what do killers expect survivors to do' - its starting at such an extreme that then getting healthy response is very difficult.
Anyway, I think Firellius answers you here:
There is no singular desired playstyles.
I want, both as survivor and killer, an adaptive game. Were every game has its unique differences and its not just a repeat of what has happened before.
The worst offender of this, in my opinion, was the face camping Bubba. People would respond with 'just do gens and leave'. But there was no point to playing a game like that.
3 genning merchant was the most common community complaint and its a good one. Even if you had a plan to take it down, it was like doing a spreadsheet, not playing a game.
Tunneling is another extreme. Its the optimal strategy. So if you hit tunneling its like 'okay, we wait to the last second to unhook, body block, and do gens'. The best games of DbD, on either side, create scenarios were it is extremely unclear what the right play is (its also the reason I think the game has survived so long in comparison to its competitors).
So I want basically all of those aspects to be part of the game. Personally, I don't think even tunneling should be totally out of the question but it should come with heavy costs.
And this isn't even unique to survivor, its the same with killer.
Survivors should be able to loop. Does that mean some loops have been too strong? Of course.
Survivors should be able to do gen focused builds. Does that some builds have been too strong? Of course.
Survivors should be able to heal? Does that mean some healing builds have been too strong? Again, of course they have.
Anyway, I hope that is clear, you're asking what the desired play style is. There isn't one, on either side, but some styles do become too strong and/or boring/repetitive and need to be addressed. There's no overarching rule you can put in place, each game element needs to be discussed on its own.
If all things survivor have would be trashed and still someone says to me "They are to strong, boring, or whatever I would ask them what they want survivors to do. Standing there like scared chickens? If they say "Yes thats exactly what I want" I would ask them if he wants a competitive game or a farming sim.
Belive me or not I am a Survivor main which sometimes plays Michael or Chucky (whatever the difference between them is thx bhvr for that…) and I want a fun game for both sides.
I don´t want the blight to rush screaming back to my hook the second my feet touch the grass, I don´t want to be slugged for 4 minutes while the Killer is searching for the last mate which is hiding. But I don´t want the feeling of "I can waste every pallet on the map and know after all gens are done i can still throw 10 more."
I simply had the question. "IF" and i want to have the focus on the IF because it is a theoretical question. IF all things survivor say is unfun, cheap or unskilled would be bannished from the game (which many players on this forum do) what would be the playstyle for the killer players.
I think that some of the tunneling, slugging or camping is part of the game we all play. But if I ask how much is okay or when is it okay I get downvoted but not a single answer.
But why I don´t get an answer? Do survivors really want a bot running behind them looping for 5 gens and clippfarm? Or is there a vision?
I want to go away from the us vs them and ask openly to the other side. What do you want?
It's not an open question if you've already filled in the answer yourself and refuse everything else.
Maybe 12-hooking (or at least 8-hooking) before killing off someone, so that everyone has time to interact with the gameplay aspects during a match. That is the so-called desired playstyle survivors would enjoy the most.
It also separates the good killers from the bad ones. Consistently 3-4K'ing, and maintaining a high kill-rate while 12-hooking shows that you are a very competent player, and deserve to be high up there.
well its very easy to tell you why… tunnel is a pressure tech strategy, made to apply pressure in the game, enough pressure wins the game, killers dont really have many pressure options to get… to stop tunnel they would need to give killers options that are as powerfull as tunneling but without the boring part, which would mean, buffing killers enormously…. Can you imagine behaviour launching a patch where they enormously buff killers and dont touch survivors? i cant Can you imagine survivors not crying their eyes out over a killer buff? i cant… thats why
Imagine if killer had mini missions from the entity to get pressure, like hooking someone in the basement gives base pain ressonance to all gens on that hook and slow the gen repair speed, as long as the killer is not camping and the person is still hooked in the basement… imagine an accursed hook with red aura that hooking there transfer your terror radius to the hook and makes all survivors outside that terror radius exposed, imagine bloodlust insta breaking pallets thrown on you… if killers had options… fun powerfull options of getting pressure without tunnel, tunnel would not be an issue…
but behaviour puts a cake beside an starving person and tells then to please not eat it… then gets angry they ve eaten it
Agency.
It's always about agency.
Being able to interact with and play the game. To use the perks and items that were brought. To feel like you have a chance to reset and recover. Those who say "being chased is the entire game" are ignoring that many people prefer the stealth aspect, or the map sense meta aspect, or helping teammates, or any number of other things, and not being chased the second they load in or are unhooked.
Slugging, camping, and tunnelling removes that, which is why they're so strong. Survivors cannot use their perks or items unless they brought specific ones for that, which are very limited in usage and strength, and worse, they're forced to sit and endure it, often while the killer BMs them. Killers feel the same way when they have no agency (eg survivors in the exit gates). The key difference being that the latter only happens at the end of matches and can be stopped, while survivors only recently got a very limited abandon option. All of those are still bad mechanics that need to be removed or mitigated.
But at the same time, anything that gives survivors agency to interact directly with the killer, both to counter those situations, or AT ALL, is seen as toxic. Survivors must coordinate and use resources in order to counter them, but if they do so, they're what's ruining the game for killers. This mental framework doesn't tolerate the other side having agency, mechanics, or options.
"Can you imagine behaviour launching a patch where they enormously buff killers and dont touch survivors? i cant Can you imagine survivors not crying their eyes out over a killer buff? i cant… thats why"
There have been multiple of these, my guy. The most recent one was in June.
Come on.
Yeah, cause adding 20+ pallets to pre-existing maps was a massive killer buff as we all know.
And if you´re referring to the survivor anti-afk update. God forbid that I want teammates that don´t just afk or hide all game and actually do gens. What a horrible world we live in where survivors actually have to play the game.
Atleast some people which give opinions.
I understand that in a perfect world this would be the optimal game. But how do we archive that. Do we cut chases short or will the gen speed being increased? Not all Killers are able to go for this at the moment. I threw the Idea into the room that maybe Killers should be rewarded if they hook each survivor once without hooking someone twice. So there will be a reason to spread hooks.
Do you think it would be a possibility if the reset happens after the unhook? Instead of getting endurance alone the get healed? Keep the endurance part because one shot killers exist?
To be fair if you prefer to play stealthy you should have no problem with tunneling or slugging because you try to avoid the killer or am I mistaken?
I simply had the question. "IF" and i want to have the focus on the IF because it is a theoretical question. IF all things survivor say is unfun, cheap or unskilled would be bannished from the game (which many players on this forum do) what would be the playstyle for the killer players.There's three issues here: poisoning the well, strawman, and presuming the conclusion.
Poisoning the well: You're starting from the premise of - 'you're unreasonable, please clarify how unreasonable are you?' You're going back and forth on this being a hypothetical vs being a meaningful game discussion. You don't have a person that you are responding to, its the starting point for where you are labeling the side unreasonable which leads to -
Strawman: You aren't responding to a person. No person said they wanted all of these removed (I'm not sure if anyone said they want any of these things removed entirely, so much as balanced). You're taking complaints from different individuals, going to an extreme, and lumping together to form a new entity you are arguing with (i.e. the strawman). Each individual is going to have their own nuanced complaints and thoughts about the game, which leads to -
Presuming the conclusion: You seem to be looking for an answer that is singular. 'I the survivor want the killer to play in X fashion'. But your presumption actually eliminates the answer others have given you - they don't just want one thing, in fact that is what they are trying to pull the game away from is singular tactics (i.e. tunneling, 3 genning from the starting, facecamping). This is why despite @Firellius giving you a very clear answer, you say he dodged question, because you'd already constructed the form of the answer that you wanted.
People on this forums want killer to brainless commit chases until the match is lost or they hooked everyone twice before they start killing.
Really, people tend to ignore macroplay and want to killers do it too.
Hooking multiple people multiple times before a death is the killer macro play, it's spreading your pressure across the whole team to slow down generator repair.
You don't have to two-hook everyone before the first death, obviously, but focusing down one player is explicitly trying to circumvent the macro play for killer.
I will give you right. It is not fair how I made my question. But I am still curious how a good game should look like.
First one says it should be a close game
Second one says it should be a game with 8 hooks before someone dies.
One wants a fast paced game the other a stealthy one.
I just wanted opinions so you can discuss with me. Open my eyes or see flaws someone else didnt think off.
Thats why I said okay if tunneling, slugging and camping are removed what is left.
I got examples from @Firellius that Hit and Run and 3 Gening is still an option. But I don´t think that if the Meta goes that way survivors would be happy.
But if these playstyles are ######### too and let Survivors deinstall the game, where is the line?
We all kmow that people are never happy and I am afraid that If you give the children candy it wants more.
It feels a bit like the time as Skullmerchant got nuked. After BHVR nuked her because the complains got to loud it was okay for a time. Then some people on twitter and this forum demanded lets give ghoul the Skullmerchant treatment and BHVR will nuke him. Or an example for the other Side lets complain about Fog vials till BHVR nukes them.
I think too that a good anti Tunnel or Anti Slug should exist. But when we start to nerf these "Strategies/Cheap Tactics" where do we stop? Is a dead survivor at four hooks tunneling? Or only at 3 hooks? Is tunneling two survivors out at hook 5 and 6 enough to nerf tunneling more?
Thats why I asked, what is in your opinion a good survivor game? Cause I can´t know that. I try to recognize patterns here and I am really afraid that this game will not be balanced at all but just the side which is crying louder gets their feet kissed.
This, hot off the killer outrage turbo-axing a PTB addressing the number one issue for players quitting DBD. (And then also tacking on a survivor nerf to exacerbate said issue)
So if you're really looking for patterns, don't worry: If the pattern holds, the next playstyle after tunnelling won't cop any nerfs until 2034.
Chasing survivors normally, genius
what is normally?
pretty much this for me too. except i know in 90% of my matches if i dont tunnel straight off the bat im getting steam rolled. i found in my killer matches if i ease back on the tunneling and only do it when i see gens fly, by that point the damage is already done and its still too difficult get the match back in my favour. Hence why i tunnel at 5 gens. when the swf teams i go against do gens efficiently and im tunneling from the get go its usually a close match. This issue is when either i hold back on the tunneling or survivors hold back on doing gens one side gets steam rolled.
You shouldn't be losing 90% of your matches without hard tunneling at 5 gens. That is very abnormal.
i agree, but thats the reality of it. i dont play blight or S tier killers and im getting frequent SWF teams time and time again. i play stealth killers or pyramid head. maybe if i played S tier killers i wouldnt have any issues
Not going to comment on tunneling because it's been done to death, but I agree that healing speeds are kinda wack rn. Why are the numbers on my antiheal options all so small in comparison to healing perks? You don't even need to look further than Leverage at 20% slow for 60 seconds vs. We'll Make It's 100% boost for 90s. Even stacking slowdown with like mangled + leverage is still completely outclassed by we'll make it and just about outclassed by Botany or Orela perk.