Is tunneling killing the game?
Hi,
I want to share my thoughts, experiences, what I think could be done about tunneling and I would like to know your opinion about that.
Lately, I played during the community tournament, which we couldn't tunnel, camp and only slug once per match, it was so much more fun, balanced than what we have right now, it was rewarding good plays for both side. Everyone actually needed to use a minimum of their brain cells, like using the only slug for the right moment, protect the right gens, make good skill shots, GOOD PLAYS!
If the killers were not respecting these rules, they were loosing a huge amount of points (negative points).
Today I came back to play with some friends and it was NOT fun, we had a Sadako that was purposely tunneling. I am not talking about like "tunneling because the survivor is asking for it" or "tunneling because it was the end game", she was waiting for the survivor to be unhook, she was ignoring us and was chasing the same surviver again until he died.
It happens more than once during the same night, different matches, different killers but same behavior. We could notice that at the end the killer won as much points as us and I felt like...there was no reason to NOT play like that.
I really do think they should work on something to make the game more like a chess and mind game and not a tunneling playground. Don't get me wrong, I know there is survivors who are bullies too, at least there is perks to counter Flashlight/Stun plays, nothing except decisive strike for survivors, that does not really change much because the tunneler just need to continue tunneling after the strike.
I don't know if there is any devs who are reading the forum for real or if what we are writing here is taken in consideration but: If your goto is "fun", I think you are loosing the track of what is "fun" by doing nothing about people who just want to be mean to others because they can and there is no penalty for doing it. Like they could continue to play like that, IF IT'S THEIR KIND OF FUN, but don't encourage that by giving as much points for just tunneling and makes the whole game miserable.
Even if people say: No one is playing for BP. I guarantee you, if the killer have 0 or close to nothing points because he played just to make everyone uninstall the game, at some point he will run out of add-ons, run out of offering, find the games boring and uninstall it or change his mindset.
I love this game, I want it to be more fun :( Please BHVR, do something <3
Thank you for reading me.
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EDIT#1:
Note, this post is not about:
- Winning or loosing
- Changing game mechanic
It's about incentify not tunneling by adjusting points in regards of the amount of gens left and the duration between 1st and 2nd hook of a survivor.
It's either:
- Removing points from tunneling at 5 gens inside x amount of seconds
- Giving more points to not tunnel
- Mix the two previous solutions.
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EDIT #2:
After reading everyone here and have some reflexion, I think we just need a "tournament-like" mode, with the same rules as a tournament, so everyone will be happy, I could try a more "define" mode and other people could keep playing as free as they want with the regular mode:
SURVIVORS
Rules:
- No duplicate perks
- No items (finders keepers allowed)
- No offerings
- No duplicate survivors
----
KILLER
Rules:
- Green or lower add-ons are allowed
- Tunneling is not allowed (disable during endgame) : which you couldn't down a survivor after he got unhook without hooking a different one before.
- Can only slug 1 survivor max (possibly disable during endgame): after u kept a survivor on the ground for more than 15 seconds, the next one you don't pickup in the 6 seconds after your weapon cooldown animation stop, can not be picked up and can recover real fast with an endurance and running speed of 10%.
- Only allowed a cypress mori.
---
SEASONS
Every season the devs could pick:
- 7 maps and 28 possible killers that can be played during that season till next 13th where it shuffles again.
- For each game that players start, there will be 4 random killers among the 28 possibles, OR it could simply be 4 random killers among all the killers and throw the 28 idea in the garbage.
- The player who is playing killer would have to pick one among the 4 random, he could have the option to simply pick "random" and let the game pick the killer for him if he wants more challenge.
- The lobby waiting times would be longer than usual, I don't know how much times should be appropriate so the players can negotiate/communicate perks or build for each of them if needed, but if everyone is ready, the game just go as usual.
- If the survivor does not care about his build or want some challenge, he can simply pick the perk "randomizer" that will simply random his 4 perks with what is left available.
IF THAT KIND OF MODE would exist, I'd be very happy, and I'd probably just play this one and the others that want to play more freely can still play as they want.
Comments
It pays off most of the time.
So are you saying remove points then?
because I know it will never go away completly but I am sure if there is an incentive, there will be less.
basekit grim embrace will literally just make tunneling more viable because you get free slowdown leaving the hook for a few seconds and can come back and tunnel even freer because the gens are closed off, plus you can easily pair it with deadlock too to give you more time to tunnel. i don't trust that you're not being malicious with this suggestion. xD
LOL
Again, it's not about that...
it's about tunneling at 5 gens right away.
The only way a killer can tunnel at 5 gens is if the other 3 survivors don't get a gen before the first hook. Which is a skill issue on the survivor's part.
It's not so much tunneling but more of a lack of effort. Matches feel so mindless from both sides.
Why bother playing a match when you're at a 3 vs 1 two minutes in.
Yep that too. Effortless and rewarding ...
I both agree and disagree with that. At some point there is nothing you can do if a killer keep chasing you since the start, he will finish by catching you. Thanks god if you are god like and wasted his entire time and the whole team did a great job at doing gens, gg. You know as much as me that it's not what is happening.
We need more perks that encourage killers to go after all survivors and “spread the wealth.” Blood Warden & No Way Out had the right idea. The reward for going after a different survivor other than the last one unhooked, should be a very good one.
Also, Decisive Strike needs to be buffed back to a 5 second stun.
It's not about free wins. No other strategy feels impactful. Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground and can't compete against gen rushing. The problem is constant nerfs, and not just for killers. Survivors don't have anything to do but gens, because nothing else feels impactful.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything. Give hexes a passive buff when they're broken, take it away with pintemento. Let coh self heal, make the self heal immune to all speed upgrades. Make BBQ, thantaphobia, and monstrous shrine good perks. ######### it, make all heal boosts more powerful, but mutually exclusive so they don't stack. Make anything but the current meta useful, because mechanically, tunneling should be the weakest it's ever been
There's an easy way to fix tunneling. Give survivors immunity off hook (at least before the gens are completed), but give them a secondary objective to complete to 'return to the game'.
You do realize this would allow the immune Survivor to bodyblock with impunity, and the Killer would be absolutely unable to counter it?
And what happens if a 4-Man SWF decides to all just refuse to 'return to the game'? Now they get to hold it hostage until the Killer ragequits & eats a DC penalty.
Plus, a Survivor can just stay immune until the best time to 'return', basically following the Killer around & reporting on all his actions over Discord.
I love how the 'fix' for Survivor 'I lost' complaints is always the equivalent of 'Give Survivors a mechanic they can horribly abuse to avoid losing ever again.' 😂
After reflexion, I think we just need a "tournament-like" mode, with the same rules as a tournament, so everyone will be happy, I could try a more "define" mode and other people could keep playing as free as they want with the regular mode:
SURVIVORS
Rules:
----
KILLER
Rules:
---
SEASONS
Every season the devs could pick 7 maps and 28 possible killers that can be played during that season till next 13th where it shuffles again. For each game that players start, there will be 4 random killers among the 28 possibles, OR it could simply be 4 random killers among all the killers and throw the 28 idea in the garbage.
IF THAT KIND OF MODE would exist, I'd be very happy, and I'd probably just play this one, because there is actually efforts on both side and it feels more like a chess game than a casual game where killers can just tunnel at 5 gens, and get as much points in 12 minutes or less with an offering.
It shouldn't be possible for the killer to eliminate a survivor within the first 2 minutes of the match who is actively trying to avoid the killer. This game needs a foundational change to its playstyle and objectives. If you can't even stay in the match long enough to at least safety pip (which shouldn't be a thing) then there really is no point in even playing. And this isn't a skill issue by the way. Its a gameplay and RNG issue. You can't do anything to stop many killers from focusing you down on maps like the farm where most of the terrain is just open.
This is exactly how it always happens for me.
I'll play several chill games and win a few. Then I'm suddenly against teams who do gens in parallel while I've only been able to find and get one survivor. They do everything right, they body-block where it counts, ... So I switch gears and I assume from that point on I'm on the sweaty plays levels "forever". (Usually until I'm fed-up and leave the game for a month or two.)
I'd like to know when I'm going in if I'm going against sweat-lords or against care-bears. That should be done when the match starts to avoid lobby dodging. That'd tell me how sweaty I need to be.
I don't want to play competitive but I'm very competitive by nature. If I'm being pushed, I react.
This game is just straight up unplayable on survivor side.
Tunneling is definitely not fun to play against. It might be necessary against high level SWF, but it's completely overkill against everyone else. Blame BHVR for incentivizing the most anti-social playstyle. A lot of the negativity in the community is a result of them refusing to make any significant changes to the game. Why does Tombstone piece exist still? Cos Myers is weak and they don't want to rework him. So he gets to keep something that makes matches for survivors absolutely miserable.
It shouldn't be attached to an "incentive" because many people do it out of spite because of how easy it is to do.
They could get 1 bil points for not tunneling and they'd still do it.
every single game in a row is literally nothing but camp and tunnel. 100% of all my survivor games. Its about as lame and boring as it gets. Time to only play killer I guess.
I mean, heaven forbid Killers try to win, amIright?
Survivors can use 12 META perks, be in a SWF, and use Discord.
They also have BT basekit if 'tunneled', which they abuse to bodyblock, then complain that they can still be downed; A mechanic to self-unhook if a Killer 'camps'; A new mechanic that prevents Killers from kicking gens too many times. All basekit.
But a Killer trying to secure kills? That's 'lame' and 'boring' and 'killing the game' and 'toxic'! 🙄
I highly recommend a video on YouTube by the name of “You’re responsible for your own fun” by Ken. It’ll explain it better than I can wasting my time typing for oblivious survivor mains
Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground
You've said this 3 times now, but this is completely untrue.
Remember the medkit and circle nerfs? That was 100% because people told the devs they wanted 'hit and run' as a play style. Those nerfs were specifically a gigantic buff to hit and run.
And you can't even argue that those nerfs weren't effective for that style, because instantly people went from complaining that 'heals are too easy' to 'everyone just plays injured'.
It's that people choose not to play hit and run. They only want to tunnel, because it's easy, efficient, and harder to counter.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything.
No.
We already know this doesn't work. Each and every but is only ever used to tunnel and camp more effectively.
We see it in real time with the in game events, including right now: you can give every killer free, base kit stealth while still allowing their tracking powers, and people are just using that to camp and tunnel harder.
The. Carrot. Does. Not. Work. To deter tunneling, the only way to address it is the stick at this point.
You'd have a lot more credibility in your arguments if you didn't immediately label anyone who disagrees with you as "oblivious Survivor mains"
It has historically been proven that the carrot approach to tunneling just does not work. The only thing that kept a lid on tunneling was DS with its 5-second stun, coupled with "DH for distance". DH got reworked, and DS got nerfed.
Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing. Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective. Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress. They're genrushing, because 3 gens popped in the first 3 minutes and the killer hasn't gotten a down yet (Largely due to poor map design).
Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing
They are the same thing; Each side trying to win as efficiently as possible.
Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective.
And tunneling is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to Killers doing their objective.
Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress.
And Killers are 'Tunneling survivors' if they already hook a Survivor they have progress on.
So if 'genrushing' is not real, then neither is 'tunneling'.
Agreed 100% it's too common there needs to be alternative way more viable stragedy for killers. But at the moment feels tunneling has just gotten easier and easier. Ds should definetely brought back to 5s with 80s timer.
Not sure if it's killing the game, but certanly has killed my willingness to play survivor for the time being. In the last week i haven't touched the game once as that role.
Things must be really out of control when i've seen some survivors thanking me during endgame chat for not tunneling xD
All I am going to say is that tunnelling is one of the big reasons I stopped playing DBD overall.
I hate tunnelling and I do not tunnel when I play killer because it ruins the game for me, so I wont subject others to that either.
So when was the last time you saw any survivor at all try to make the game fairer and funnier to play for the Killer?
Never? Thought so.
Whataboutism?
Totally.
I'm just really salty these past days and I resort to basic tribalism when I am.
I keep being told to play fair, not do this or that, meanwhile all I get in return are survivors taunting me and not a single shred of mercy if I'm struggling.
Like, you can't expect sympathy if all you do is bully someone in return.
You can disregard whatever I say honestly it doesn't matter.
It's not something I'll condone, but it IS understandable.
At some point, we must all do what we find is right. I can't justify playing that way anymore against random people who've done nothing to me and I don't think others should either, but that's why it's an opinion. You don't need to share it.
It's also hard to show restraint as survivor, especially these days. It's really one mistake and you lose.
Honestly I agree with everything and at this point I should definitely have the same mindset as you do - I mean I've been playing since Huntress or Hag came out. I should be above that. But it still gets to me and I hate it. I don't blame the next team I face but I blame myself for not being good enough.
To be honest I don't even care about tunneling. The only players are tunnel are the bots - so they're not even players.
Idk I'm just rambling
10000% agree that there seems to be a huge disconnect between the way the developers see the survivor role and the way that players want to play the survivor role. I'm not convinced that the devs think there is even a problem with survivor gameplay right now. The playerbase might have to slowly dwindle even more for it to dawn on them.
Also, another thing people seem to miss regarding tunneling: a player probably went down in an area for a reason. Either a deadzone, combination of killer power+tile layout, whatever. If a player is then hooked in that same area (remember that a good killer has a brain), they might easily go down in that area again for those same reasons. And if it's a deadzone, there's not much you can do about that. A shocking amount of players straight up don't understand this. I don't know if it's only playing one side, being inexperienced, or what. A sentient killer isn't going to proc an on-hit speed boost out of a dead zone or favorable area if they want to tunnel someone out.
I swear to god guys, the moment I played with tournament rules (the ones I said in my Edit #2 of my main thread), the game was so much more fun and it was absolutely not one sided, it was mostly tight. Just because both side were restraint in some ways and actually had to think more than using their au ra perks, or abusing meta perks by having the whole team having the same build or same add-ons, everyone had to use more than the minimum of their god damn brain. It was such a breath of fresh air.
I am not a survivor main, I go where the bonus points are.
^ It's not a us vs them, it's a good game or a bad game. Its simply bad gameplay and needs to be changed for the health of the overall game. Its not about who 'wins' so much as is it fun gameplay, its really that simple.
Fwiw it made all my friends quit.
There have been countless suggestions yet no change. No one wants to feel frustrated on either side.
When I get tunneled it doesnt bother me, it's just boring. I'll turn off the game and do something more productive. Sometimes I don't turn it back on for ages, but who cares tbh lol
The problem lies in a system that doesn't harm either side's chances and can't be used as a weapon.
I remember wanting to drop this game because of the Dead Hard/Decisive Strike meta when I started playing around the Sadako release. I also remember when basekit BT was added and survivors, to this day, still try to use it to bodyblock instead of using it to get to a safe spot. And I'm sure we know the little exploits with the anti-facecamp using killers like Bubba or Wesker to tunnel out someone quickly regardless. The problem with giving survivors or killers too much is they weaponize it anyway.
I think my favorite compromise was making unhooked survivors 'ethereal' and unable to bodyblock, be damaged, be seen, or do any task for a duration of time so they can safely get to a location away from the killer.
The fact that the game is balanced(2dead2alive) even with tunneling.
That means killer would lose(kill<=1) every game if they are not tunneling.
Thank you!
More people need to bring the Babysitter perk. I feel like it's slept on. Someone unhooked me with it and I managed to immediately lose a tunnelling Nurse on Haddonfield of all maps. It's made me bring it every now and then in case the killer comes back to hook for the person I've just unhooked. They usually have no choice but to chase me instead.
Yes!! Tournament mode is all I want. I would play only this mode! I don't mind spending more time in lobby prepairing for the match. Just few comments:
The rest is perfectly written.
Devs, please!
It's not balanced as a 2v2 what???
I strongly disagree.
To convince me you need to share multiple games of killers that you struggle against 2 survivors left during a public match as an evidence of your statement lmao, when I say struggle, like you are flawless and you still have issues. I want to see it.
I'm not talking about petty endgame chat. I'm talking about here, on the forum.
Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
Genrushing involves survivors bringing everything they can to repair gens faster, to the detriment of their other objectives. They sacrifice altruism to focus on completing their objective as quickly as possible.
At no point did I say genrushing isn't real. What I said was that genrushing isn't competing with tunneling. Which it isn't. They aren't the same thing, because while one side is playing normally, the other side is playing as efficiently as possible.
Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
What 'other objectives'? The Killer's end goal is to kill the Survivors. Full stop. Everything else he does is simply to buy time to achieve this goal. He does not win by kicking gens, but kicking gens helps him win. He does not win by hooking Survivors, but hooking Survivors progresses him towards winning.
Your 'detriment to the other objectives/Survivors' is just made-up tripe to make it sound like you have a valid point.
If the Killer 'tunnels', and ends up with a 3-4K, then it was not a 'detriment', was it?
They’ve added so many perks and baseline elements to combat tunneling. At this point it’s up to survivors to play better. Also, your idea of making it impossible to down an unhooked survivor until another is hooked would just be abused by survivors. Look at the built in BT, do survivors use it to make it safely away from the hook? No, they use it to bodyblock for other survivors because they know they are immune to being downed.
Again it comes down to better play from survivors. You can easily punish a killer for tunneling. Because tunneling typically involves camping too.
It isn't made-up tripe. Your primary objective is to prevent the survivors from escaping by killing them. Your secondary objective is to defend your generators.
If the killer tunnels, and gets naught but a 1k, was it not a detriment? Part of tunneling is knowing who to target. If you target the wrong person, you've just cost yourself the match. The only thing that makes tunneling efficient is the payoff of having permanent slowdown.