Remove ability for survivors to kill themselves on hook
I normally play killer, but when I do play survivor in solo queue, it seems at east one survivor purposely kills themselves on hook at least once every 5 games, and I even notice this to a lesser degree wen I'm playing as killer. This obviously means the game becomes at least 95% killer sided.
The truth is, the mechanics which allow the survivor to kill themselves are so unnecessary in the first place, and do not add much (if any) value to the game.
1st hook stage
The ability to try for a 4% should be removed from general gameplay. Perhaps if every other survivor is either on hook, in the dying state, being carried, or dead, then perhaps the 4% unhooking chance could activate then. But at any other stage, it is so unnecessary.
2nd hook stage
The skill checks are so easy to hit that you can only really miss them if you deliberately miss them (maybe the last few are slightly tricky for beginners). But being that easy, it doesn't seem necessary, especially as 2 of these missed skill checks result in instant death.
Survivors on hook should just be made to wait it out until they are saved. And if the survivor wants to leave the game, they should just quit and let a bot take over.
I do understand that if there are two survivors are left and one is on hook, the hooked survivor might want to kill themselves quickly to allow the survivor being chased to get hatch, so in the instance where there are only 2 survivors left, the hooked survivor can choose to just kill themselves to help the chased survivor.
Comments
So you are going to make assumptions based on my opinion without and proof or facts to back it up? Very logical.
I dont need to earn anything from you. I dont want to earn anything from you. I have an argument and i try to discuss something with people on a logical level. You make this impossible.
If you want to get personal, im out, as i said before. You calling me out for having an opinion and relishing in the fact, that others are not in the same boat as me, is ganging up on me.
Disjointed points..... im not even gonna go into that.
I dont like your attitude one bit.
End of communication.
This idea is partially borrowed by @Seraphor in an exchange on another thread, so want to credit where it's due. However, I've made some changes to other parts.
The bit they said which I though was good was that the escape attempts should not affect the timer on the first hook. They'd still have a limited number of escapes, but those won't infringe on the timer.
What I'd add is the escape attempts can be done at any time throughout this stage. On the second stage I would remove Skill Checks. In my opinion, now the only thing which should quicken time on the hook is Monstrous Shrine.
Overall, if someone is so desperate to leave a Trial then they can take the disconnect (gives them time to cooldown, instead of jump into another and have the exact same thing) or risk a report for unsportsmanlike behaviour by either going afk or running to the Killer for a quick death. Even this though would give more time for other Survivors to get stuff done and reduce stress for all except those who don't care about the stress or impact they put on others.
nah
What you originally asked was what makes the game unfun for survivors right now, and this is what we've been trying to address. And as you've said, being on a SWF group doesn't make those problems go away. With the exception of MMR, the list of unfun things @MikaelaWantsYourBoon mentioned affects both solo players and SWF groups.
Its not done with removing killers from the game or changing them so much that they become unrecognizable for the people that enjoyed them.
If there is someone who cannot possibly suggest such a thing, it's me.
Its not done with putting a jungle gym in every dead zone. Even a LT will not please a lot of people so where do we start? Almost everyone agrees, that Garden of Joy is not fine in terms of pallet spawns, loop design and especially the main building.
But it can be done by reverting their layouts back to the original map adjustments, before the big reworks. I'm not sure how many people here were around for that, but it was a great patch that aimed to fix the maps without creating deadzones. That was a good effort that should've been continued.
Its not done with giving DS 5 seconds again. There will always be people that tunnel and the reward ( someone leaving the match and making it a 3v1) is still too big without any alternative. If the killer player wants to win, they WILL play optimally. Currently, and as long as i have been playing, the most optimally playstyle for killer is also unfun for survivor. Same way is the most optimally way to play as survivor very unfun for the killer. Making a liscensed perk that people have to pay for a bit stronger IS NOT THE BEST WE CAN DO. There has to be something that incentivices the killer player to go for other survivors. This does not have to be slowdown or as strong as getting into a 3vs1. Just something to making hook spreading worth it. Currently it punishes the killers time investment rather than making them progress their objective. Otherwise i dont think tunneling will see a decrease in popularity.
Decisive Strike will be buffed again, that much I'd say it is a given. I don't see anything wrong with a perk being used to fight against tunneling because it isn't an exploit nor a flaw in the game's design: it is a strategy, but that strategy is frowned upon. With the perk you have a choice between preparing yourself to fight against that strategy, or bring something else that you think will help you in the trial.
As for incentives, we had one: Barbecue & Chili. It didn't stop tunneling completely, but it was an excellent incentive. I think it has to be brought back.
Your next points I do not know how to address. I did not call you a "dirty killer main" (which would be highly hypocritical of me to do, since I've always played more killer than survivor), I did not call you out for having an opinion or complaining about things. Me and MikaelaWantsYourBoon have tried to, respectfully, answer the question you asked.
Why is tunneling such a problem right now?
The problem with tunneling is the sheer wave of it we're currently seeing, mostly because there is little you can do against it. Maybe DS won't be as effective as it used to be as an anti-tunnel perk, but we have to start somewhere.
Problems related to players "fun" can indeed be tricky, but each scenario has to be looked at individually.
For example, Ghostface is the killer I hate most in this game, I never have fun against him. That doesn't mean Ghostface needs a nerf, it is an opinion that I have. But Rancid Abattoir losing most of its loops and being left with deadzones isn't an opinion. It is something that happened and should be fixed.
In terms of categorizing me and calling me out, I wasn't referring to you friend or @MikaelaWantsYourBoon but to Ayodam. But I hope that this topic is off the table now. It has no place here. I always want to discuss things respectfully and therefore I enjoy interacting with you and @MikaelaWantsYourBoon very much.
I'm fine with ds being 5 seconds. I just don't think that this will solve the problem effectively. Bbq old bloodpoint bonus could be made a basekit mechanic. The more different people the killer hooks before someone is dead, the more BP they shall receive. Sounds like a good incentive to me.
With your last point I absolutely agree!
First of all, I didn’t categorize you as one thing or another because your role preference is frankly irrelevant, as I went on to state in a follow up comment. You don’t get some sort of immunity from ill-conceived takes or spewing killer main talking points because you play more survivor.
Secondly, I used your point to more broadly identify a trend: a lot of people who are killer mains share the exact line of logic you produced, regardless of your personal claim that you’re a survivor main. And that’s true. Here is the original comment for your recollection:
”It’s so interesting to watch you debunk Radianthero’s argument that comms are this magical bullet that just totally renders survivors immune to the drawbacks of playing survivor. Like it’s surreal anyone thinks that but it’s really the mindset of a lot of killer mains here.”
To juxtapose, @GeneralV is a killer main but routinely advocates for buffs/improvements for survivors. Survivor/killer takes are not role specific.
You dont get it, do you.
First of all: I NEVER said that I'm a survivor main. Never. I said that I play soloq and killer both.
Saying that swf communication helps with a lot of the problems that soloq survivors and survivors overall have in the game is an opinion. An opinion, people can get behind or not. Some people actually do, think that or not. I'm not forcing it on you. I'm discussing it. That's what the forums are for.
You continued to call me out and blame me. For having an opinion.
I also have other opinions. For example to make some sort of reward for the killer for hooking different people, therefore incentiviaing the killer to NOT tunnel.
I see the game as a whole. Not as : "one side vs other side". We are all players. Some play this, some play that. Making the game more enjoyable for both sides is the only way to go.
You insulted my argumentation skills and my efforts to include myself into conversations and discussions to make a change. Yes, insulted. I genuinely feel, that I had a lot of open minded discussions with people and that I also helped to change some things in regards to the game (Sadako).
Saying that "it's unreal to see that anyone thinks that..." is a horrible start if you want to engage with someone in an argument. You simply state :"you are wrong and everyone else sees that your wrong. Your opinion therefore doesn't matter". Everyone's opinion matters. My opinion has just as much weight to it as yours.
So don't give me any "freebies" of yours if I don't want them.
At least we can agree on one part. The role you play doesn't make your takes on the game overall invalid.
I couldn’t care less what role you play or how you play it, and I’m not interested in going back and fourth with you. You seem to be personalizing this discussion. That’s going to be where this conversation ends for us.
I understand, my friend. There was just a little confusion in the previous post.
DS being 5 seconds again is a good place to start. Maybe it won't be as effective as it used to be, especially because fighting against tunneling is way harder these days, but it should at the very least put a stop to the current tunneling wave. Many killers don't like to eat the stun.
As for BBQ, I would prefer if it was a perk, to be honest. BBQ being used every game means one less stacked gen slowdown to worry about, and everyone prefers killers who spread their hooks.
Banning them for griefing aught to do it.
But what if the killer doesnt own Laurie or Bubba? I dont think important apects of the game that need to be looked at should be fixed with something that is locked behind a paywall.
The shrine can help them.
Though honestly, I don't think I have ever met a player who doesn't have Laurie or Bubba. Many players bought those DLCs to get the perks, back when they were part of the meta.
But we also have to think about new players. Those that are especially endangered to get into the "i tunnel every game because i have to" - mindset. These people dont have the shards or time to go into the shrine, wait until one of the perks show up and grab them. As you correctly pointed out, many players had purchased Bubba and Laurie, back when it was meta. New players see DS and BBQ maybe as subpar perk right now. With how much negativity DS especially gets right now, i cant blame them.
If you ask me, a buff to survivor could be: after getting unhooked, and the survivor gets chased and downed within 40 seconds after being unhooked (tunneled) they can hit a skill check, stunning the killer for 4 seconds (DS could be like borrowed time , adding seconds to the stun). This mechanic is deactivates when the survivor makes a conspicious action AND makes the survivor lose collicion with the killer if the killer is chasing two or more survivors at the same time (similar to Sadako).
This is by far not a perfect solution and would need to be tested, but its better than locking something that effects game health behind a paywall.
Same thing with BBQ. Make a basekit mechanic that rewards the killer in any way for spreading hookstages. Bloodpoints as you said could be a start. Especially for newer players, spreading hooks would be more interesting, because more BP = faster progression.
Remove the hook mechanic entirely, it's so boring just hanging there. Throw survivors in a dungeon where they have to find keys to get out, anything besides the lame hooks at this point
I think it is okay for the perks to solve this matter. Especially now that shards aren't particularly difficult to get. And getting the character to P1 unlocks the perks for everyone.
Most of the meta already works that way.
Holy cow. Have you read that post before you sent it? Maybe leave your superiority complex out of this. You do not "grace" anyone. None of us do. You're not that important and neither are any of us. You're just a random person on the internet and so are the rest of us.
Also seeing as you were pretty passive aggressive towards @radiantHero23 here, I can see why he felt ganged up on. Especially with multiple people at once arguing against him. He made a claim. You disagree. That's fine. Why get all high and mighty about it?
We have had our disagreements but at least we've kept it rather civil. But here you get all condecending. This is not how a constructive argument works.
That is true. I'm just not a fan of :"if you have it, you can enjoy the game more, if you dont have it, you will get targeted and tunneled out."
It is what it is, I suppose. It is how the game operates.
If you want the best perks available, either pay for them or get lucky with the shrine.
It is how the game operates, but that doesnt mean, that there isnt maybe a better option.
Worth a ptb if you ask me.
We talked that before already, this is not gonna happen. Non of asymmetric online games does that. And DbD won't do it either.
So a couple of things: it’s not really about being high and mighty. That is your perception. But know that if I felt it, I wouldn’t have engaged with him at all.
I’ve also been quite civil. I met that individual with the same attitude & presence he brought to me, but I presume you overlooked that. Additionally, three other people responded to Radianthero directly challenging his opinion—including one other person who pointed out that his stance was constructed in a way that left people thinking something other than what he presumably meant to imply.
If you read the entire exchange you might see where I figured out what he meant several comments after my first comment (that he responded to), because he clarified himself. I even agreed with him at the point where it was clear what he meant because I believe that. And then he become passive-aggressive and rude (or did you miss that “thanks”? 😏). So he got that attitude back.
As for him feeling dogpiled, I am one of four people who responded to him. Believe it or not but we didn’t conspire as a group against him. He made a poorly explained comment that left people thinking he meant X when it seems he really meant Y, so they responded accordingly. It’s no one’s fault he was misunderstood except his own.
Stepping in for a moment to remind everyone to keep the discussion civil, respectful, constructive, and on-topic, please.
Also, a reminder that the admission or promotion of Unsportsmanlike Conduct is against Forum Rules. Thank you.
My perception comes from a specific choice of words on your part. Read your post again. Surely, you can see how that comes across as high and mighty?
I do not accuse you of deliberately ganging up on him. I'm saying that I can see where this is coming from. I have read your exchange but frankly I cannot say that I read anything else here that matched your attitude. This is what I criticised. Disagreeing on something is fine. Good even, as it means that both parties will lay out their respective views on a matter. But I will call out someone who does not follow the etiquette of a proper discussion and I expect to be called out on it as well.
I ask you to remain respectful. The way you interact with me here. I enjoy discussing things with you and other members on this forum but I cannot say, that I enjoy seeing this kind of attitude. From what I have read, you took a snarky remark (not that that helped him in any way and I do not stand for that either) and dialed it up to 11 by phrasing your post in that way. This is quite frankly beneath you. You can do better. You have proven that much.
Misunderstandings can and will happen. He did not make his point clear in a way that everyone understands. That is valid criticism. Constructive criticism at that. And I agree that he could have expressed himself better. This however does not change the fact that your post was more than a little passive aggressive, displayed what I can only describe as a superiority complex and was likely to derail the whole discussion further.
Both you and @radiantHero23 can do better than this.
People will always find reasons to not want to play the game anymore and they'll dc or seek getting hooked
No matter how fun or interesting this game gets if someone gets found in the first 20 seconds of a match and get downed by a good billy/nurse/blight or any character its very likely they will dc by how frustrating they felt in that situation (thats just an example not the main focus of my point)
Altought as you pointed earlier they should put a surrender option for both survivors and killers. Identity V witch is a game often refered as a Dead by daylight knock-off has a surrender vote option after 90 seconds since the beginig of the match
Even tho this wouldn't solve every problem in the game is definetly a step in the right direction :).
We have talked about it before, and you still have yet to explain what makes an asymmetrical game so different from any other game that suddenly it becomes an ok thing for you to intentionally screw over your teammates and grief them.
Because online games are mostly are competive game or party game.
Competive games have stricter rules and banning people more often for their actions. Because they are serious games and mostly e-sport as well.
But asymmetrical games are not putting themself to this level. They are acting like party games and in party games, you really can't force people stay in match when they don't want to. DbD is not e-sport game or competive game. So you can't expect from them to act like they are.
And the thing is , DbD will never be competive game since they are already so bad with balancing even for a party game. In competive level game, they could not ignore all of those issues.
Then explain:
Do you think mario party has MMR?
Do you think mario kart has MMR?
Also, you don't think mario party bans people for griefing? You don't think mario kart bans people for griefing? I'm sure there are cases where they do that, but there aren't examples i can give of team-based party games that require the level of coordination that DBD does, but i'm sure that they would ban people.
you really can't force people stay in match when they don't want to.What happens when a killer is stuck in a match they don't want to be in?
Yeah you have point here.
I doubt BHVR itself know what they are doing.
They are acting like DbD is party game and all rules are also supporting that.
But then we have MMR in party game? Why?
MMR is part of competive games.
But on other hand, DbD is so unbalanced to be competive game. So if they are trying to make it competive, why this game is still so bad by balance wise.
Great response as always man!
Ds is not the answer to tunneling, in fact it'll be just like with kicking gens where killers realized it was good to do so after eruption ended and then took it to a negative extreme.
I am biased because I could not care less about bp if I tried but it's not a real incentive.
I dont think buffing ds will fix tunneling as well.
A bp incentive would be a good start. Many people back when bbq had the bp bonus tunneled less. Slowdown mechanics are problematic, because certain killers would become too oppressive.
Honestly there's nothing in place to prevent someone from leaving the game, you add something like this and they'll just run to the killer and die that way. If that won't work, then they'll go down griefing and sandbagging their team.
I wish that there was some form of reputation system in this game, where you can upvote/downvote certain players in a match and depending on their reputation they get put into lobbies accordingly. Not sure how well that would work with this community tho lol :P