SWF nerfs
When was the last nerf to SWFs to bring them more in-line with solo survivors?
Someone told me they have never been nerfed and never will be nerfed as BHVR fear them?
When was the last nerf to SWFs to bring them more in-line with solo survivors?
Someone told me they have never been nerfed and never will be nerfed as BHVR fear them?
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Comments
This is a great idea. It would at least bridge the gap quite a bit :)
I feel the idea isn't to nerf SWF, it's to buff soloq, and this idea is one that works!
Not necessarily. For example they could limit perks to only one instance in any SWF, or at least impose some sort of efficiency debuff to certain combination. You could face 4 SB in a full soloQ lobby, but a 4man SWF could only field a single one.
Also, show who was in a SWF with whom in the endgame screen, so that killers can assess that, yes, their most brutal and infinite losses were against SWFs, but also a lot of their sound wins, because many duo SWFs will be overly altruistic and risk a lot in order so save their mates, and not every SWF is actually good at the game.
Limiting perks to one instance per SWF will hurt the competent teams the most, the casual happy fun SWFs won't feel a lot
It's not that they've "refused" to show it. The game is 7 years old and they literally showed kill rates *once* in that time, and it was only several months ago after a big killer buff/ perk overhaul update that was done with the sole intention of increasing kill rates. They shared the kill rates to show that the update had the intended outcome. I'm not sure why they're apparently required to update us now every several months when they hadn't done so in several years?
We've also just come out of a gen kick meta that was being used to stall games, and I guarantee kill rates increased artificially during that time. Now that build has been nerfed, it'll take time for kills to settle at their actual legitimate rates.
You assume that all SWFs are:
-planners
-They all have great skills
-coordinators
-They all bring the most powerful perks and items
-They share information between them accurately
-They have a very high quality
-have external connections (such as Discord)
- toxic
Then you expect the developer to respond to you
This is the result of the generalization
I play with my friends just for fun and experience different perks in a game
Doubt it.
Completely anecdotal, but I suspect it's gone up. If it hadn't, they wouldn't be pushing forward with their proposed changes.
what can even be done?
Both solos and swfs play the same game, they aren't separate roles. SWFs just use discord and have inherently better teamwork because of it. BHVRs influence doesnt reach beyond dbd itself, so any changes they make affect everyone. Ex: Nerf survivor bc swf broken. Result: SWFs are now fair, soloQ is now a free loss. So all BHVR can realistically do is add the extra info SWFs get to the base game so that solo is just as powerful, then deal with killer accordingly.
They aren't afraid of SWFs, they are just kind of forced to bend over backwards changing the game in ways they never intended due to swf. Survivor HUD changes would never be a thing without SWF, because the pain of soloQ would get alleviated through killer nerfs instead. Hell, SWF ITSELF was added post launch because of popular demand. The game wasn't built for it, so now BHVRs playing catch up.
Because, the 60% kill rate was in line after that update but now the meta has changed, the gen kick build, the regression build are different than before so you can not say "dev are happy with the kill rate" because they were happy months ago, now the kill rate is different and that's why they should show statistics. I mean, what's the point of keep the secrets on everything ?
If you look at Nightshade, kill rate is around 54%, some killers are even below 50% and, as long nothing official is shown to us, that's the most accurate data around here.
I dont understand this debate. Include an in game comms system like alot of other games and then balance with the assumption that all survivors are communicating.
The counter i hear is "i dont want to be forced to talk to my teammates..." well you pay the price for hurting your team. Period, end of subject.
Well, you can't convince me that you and your friends don't make call outs like "it's killer x", "they have perk y", "the killer is on my butt", "leading them to landmark z", "killer is camping/left the hook and is coming to you guys" and before the interface change "my gen is X% done" and "I am y% recovered".
Even the most casual noob teams my calls like that on instinct.
Of course making use of such information is a whole different story but on average it will increase the teams performance.
NightLight*
NightLight is entirely self-reported and is only available to an extreme minority subset of our community. To take it as anything serious is silly.
You might be able to extrapolate general perk usage trends, but actually quoting the numbers found there verbatim? Beyond ludicrous.
NightLight, my bad
True, it is only a minority of people, nevertheless it is a significant sample and, currently, the only source of data that is available
If the perk usage part can be accurate, the kill rate part can also be accurate and, as long the official statistics remains a secrets, this site is the only way to get a fairly accurate idea of the situation
Bhvr cannot implement ingame voice chat because they can’t or won’t?
Given how players themselves are asked to support proof of hackers, I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs themselves probably didn’t have a way or would find it difficult to access audio logs for reports of verbal abuse if ingame voice chat was implemented.
just buff solo Q bro, you cant nerf SWF and expect solo Q to be a better experience. best buffs for solo Q is base kit kindred, the anti-camping system, and a better anti-tunnel system. hell make it so DS doesnt have a cooldown anymore. IDK something!!
How would you nerf SWF?
And please dont tell me that you would give them an action speed debuff, this would be silly and you should know it.
It’s not a significant sample. Most DBD players are console IIRC and Nightlight doesn’t include console player data at all.
Both OOO and Soul Guard recieved changes that were obviously focused on how SWF can use them if you want to count that. And the Soul Guard change is to this day a shining example of exactly how you should change a perk with supreme focus on the actually potentially problematic application of a perk without stomping it completely into the dirt.
Beyond that, it's blatantly obvious that their approach is the polar opposite, to try to bring solo up instead. Was obvious that'd be the way they'd eventually go since several years ago but with changes like the HUD icons and the like they finally got around to actually doing what was always the only option besides going "cope or quit :^)" while changing absolutely nothing.
First, Claudette’s hiding in a bush is a natural phenomenon just as fish swimming in water. Don’t hate.
Secondly, SWF can be nerfed without harming Solo Queue. The Devs could limit perks they can use when queuing up with 3 or more players. Some would say it punishes players for wanting to play with their friends and I’d argue balancing the game to make it fair for the killer player is not punishment.
Your idea is good, but I think it'd be more fair to limit the stronger perks (Like exhaustion perks) to one instance per team if they're a swf, rather than broadly applying it to all perks. It allows room for overlap with weaker perks, but puts a limit on the strong perks that act as chase extenders.
Your idea could also be applied to items, so that swfs could only bring 1 of each item, rather than a four-man bringing 4 commodius toolboxes with hyperfocus. Which, imo, would be a significant nerf to swfs without actually impacting the casuals who just play for fun.
Personally I wouldn't be bothered by having to mix up my perk loadouts, because I'm not tied to the meta. But it would be seen as punishing players for playing with friends, particularly as SWF is not always an advantage. SWF merely provides the opportunity for a higher level of coordination, it doesn't guarantee it, and it doesn't guarantee those players are using voice chat.
It's punishing people for playing seriously with their friends. Not disagreeing with your overall suggestion, just calling it like it is. I like Dead by Daylight as much as the next guy, but I play in a duo and we mainly play for fun. Like, yes, we want to win but not if the cost is being a sweat and ruining not just our fun but the killer's fun aswell.
Winning is nice, but it's not the reason I play dbd.
The devs have stated many times they were working on both SWF and KYF when the game's launch time neared. They chose the finish KYF for launch and continue to work on SWF after, which came out next.
So they always intended for SWF to exist. I personally believe they grossly underestimated the effects that verbal communication & teammate screening could have though.
I disagree that it will hurt competent teams the most because what will happen is the competent teams will adapt. Soon there will be youtube videos detailing the best 16 perk build for swfs and then what? If the issue were SWF's, they would have been nerfed back when the depip squad was a thing, and they did all of that with no perks.
The issue was, and always has been, maps. This hasn't changed in the 7 years it has been out and based on the most recent maps we have gotten, and the Red Forest rework, they intend on keeping the maps horrible. Unfortunately, and trust me it annoys me too, in order to be able to enjoy this game you just have to accept that sometimes you are gonna get dealt a bad hand and its gonna cause you to lose. Then, just breathe and go next.
It would only come into play when it’s 3 or more players in a swf and no, it’s not punishing anyone because the information gained by using discord as well as not having to play with a SoloQueue potato more than makes up for the restrictions. Duos wouldn’t be affected.
I know it’ll be seen as a punishment but any rational person would understand that it’s not and that it’s all about balance.
I doubt the Devs would want to open that can of worms though, seeing how reasonable and mature the player base is.
Did you not understand the latter part of my post?
It IS a punishment for those who A. don't use voice comms and B. want to use the same perks.
It's not 'always' a punishment, because it's not essential to use the same perks as others and it's not really debilitating to avoid doing so, but it is a restriction that can be unnecessary.
Do you think I use telecom to talk?
Do you think all SWF all have Discord any other connection?
It is enough for me that they are fun and know what they are doing
I like how confident you are when I use telecom to communicate
You can't nerf the SWFs, what do you do? Put the game to block voice chats even from programs like discord? Devs should just nerf perks, toolboxes and all those things that can be abused, breaking the game, by an organized SWF. Mind you, I'm not saying that the organization should be penalized, on the contrary I'm the first to say that an organized SWF is right if it is able to give the killer a hard time, but neither does it break the game and create situations that are impossible to win.
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I was just throwing a couple of ideas around, not a fully fledged out solution. The core idea is that double dipping on busted stuff is what makes strong SWFs so frustrating and oppressive to play against, while not limiting casual peeps who just want to hang out with their friends and play a couple of matches.
So yeah, limiting items and certain perks sounds like a good thing, while anything goes for soloQ, they are not the problem and shouldn't be touched.
In the same vein I proposed a couple of times to devise a system that gives killers some sort of buff if they spread their hooks without killing someone off, coupled with the old BBQ like BP multiplier that only increases as long as all four survivors are alive.
Sounds complicated but what I mean is this: while all four survivors are alive the killer gets +25% BP per unique survivor hooked, and each hook will impose some sort of debuff or regress gens. I have no idea how to do this, but the goal should be to reward killers for playing the long game and wanting them to not tunnel a survivor out ASAP, and giving them something in return, like regression or slowdown. A hooked survivor could lose access to their item for a while or after all four survivors got hooked there could be a Grim Embrace like effect ... but all this just works as long as everyone is alive. That is the key of my solution.
Still, 16 unique perks will be a lot less oppressive then the 6 strongest perks in multiple instances. Just look at how comp DBD plays out, its only possible to work at all, because they mostly restrict survivors and how they can combo. When I play with my friends in a 3 or 4 man SWF we already often have more or less unique builds, because we all mostly fool around. I wholeheartedly believe that you can still have a lot of fun and a lot of effective builds with limiting duplicate perks and items in a SWF, but it will be the hardcore SWFs whos powerlevel will be reigned in the most by such a move. Yeah, they will adapt, as they always do, but this would be a step that opens up a lot more design opportunities.
On the same vein, you are right: maps are attrocious and the biggest contributor to the whole problem and every new map or rework for the last 2 years has baffled me, but I guess it is what it is and we gotta live with it. FR, though, I never cringed so hard in recent DBD memory as when I saw the developers update about the new chapter and some map designer talked about the alien planet landing zone map and when he said something along the lines "its totally alien and SO full of clutter. Its glorious." Oof.
The entire community cringed at that comment at the exact same time. It really goes to show how tone deaf they are when it comes to what this community is frustrated with. I've played on the new map once since the patch today and its just so easy to lose people.
At this point in the game's life, there's multiple options for everything. Sure not everyone could bring Dead Hard, but a Sprint Burst, a Lithe and a Balanced isn't necessarily going to be any easier. CoH isn't OP anymore, so survivors can bring a variety of healing perks, and you'd only need one CoH anyway. Same with gen perks, one Prove Thyself is enough for a competent SWF, others can bring out the Hyperfocus build, while someone else brings Overzealous and Deja Vu.
Basically, forcing 16 unique perks isn't the nerf you might think it is. If anything, it might be easier to deal with four of the same thing than four different variations of a similar thing.
Hence the argument who takes this perk?
Your solutions don't make sense
You want to punish the players because they only play together (what a crime)
It's a matter of skill if your skill is low against your opponent who is high skill then don't complains say SWF OP
Not all SWF users use Discord or any other connection. Personally, I play with them without the need for connections
It will make the game boring and die faster
It's an MMR problem
Nerfs are usually applied to something unbalanced / overpowered.
A defence not to listen and say it is because of friends has been a DBD meme for a good few years now
Playing with friends isn't overpowered.
Have you seen the escape rates?
Not seeing multiple adrenalines every match would be nice though.
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: Kill rates?!?!?
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: Many people ask for nerfs?!?!?
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: #FriendsMeme
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: Pinhead?
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: Not straightforward, balancing, kill rates, killer nerfs, needed to?
*The answer is actually straightforward, it's can be Yes or No
Question: SWFs ever nerfed? Answer: It's simple
*The answer is actually straightforward, it's can be Yes or No
... makes you wonder why people can't answer a yes or no question
This entire response is not it.
If you are using SWF solely for the purpose of enjoying with friends, then the outcome of the matches shouldn't matter and you should be able to have fun regardless. In other words, even if there are some debuffs in SWF, it should still be enjoyable when playing with friends. Ultimately, the reason SWF is fun is because it's easier to win against opponents. That's why people may dislike the restrictions imposed on it.
Personally, I always want to see an indication on the results screen whether it was a SWF or not, for the sake of personal statistics, but it's not easily realized.
Exactly! SWF players who are "objective oriented" will still find the best perk combos/who brings what and which strategies each person on the team will use and then it'll be this entire conversation over again.
If Swf can’t be nerfed, people have to accept that Solo queue will forever be trailing behind Killer in terms of balance.
Solo Queue will continue to complain about Killer sided and Killers will continue to complain about Swf sided.
Balancing them without touching swf is not achievable given bhvr’s track record at balance unfortunately.