FACECAMPING EXPERIMENT - 36 game win streak
EDIT: streak continued up to 36 (I lost the 37th game)
INTRO
I'm a 300 hour player (mostly survivor). Since I cannot play solo queue anymore without becoming insane, I decided I would wait for next patch, but meanwhile I've started to play killer on a fresh account, and experimenting what it would look like if I try as hard as I can to be a d*** (mostly by facecamping and tunneling the same player).
Admittedly because it's a fresh account I started with low MMR - I didn't really want to ruin the reputation of my main account just to prove a point - but I don't have a lot of experience with killer so it should not be too far from my "skill" if I were to play normally. However, you will see that skill is not really the point here.
Now let's make it short, I have played 18 games so far, and every single game has had exactly 0 ESCAPE from survivors. In fact, survivors never even managed to complete the last gen, so it was not very close, although they went down to 1 gen several times.
So, that's a 18 win streak - and judging by my last games, there's no sign that it's ending soon. By the way, I'm no small man like Otzdarva, a win for me means ALL SURVIVORS DIE - NOT EVEN HATCH. Of course it's a d*** challenge so I feel like giving hatch would be unappropriate.
Since people will legitimately doubt my claims, I have recorded videos of most of these matches, but I'll make a short summary for each game so you don't have to watch it, and if you're used to solo queue, I'm sure lots of these games will look familiar.
Note: if someone can tell me how to check my kill/escape ratio (which should be at 100%) that would be great, so I can share the proof that there was no other match between them where I could have lost.
LINK TO VIDEOS
I uploaded everything on Youtube, but for your convenience as said I have a "breakdown" section below where I will sum them up.
Fellow survivor mains, I know it is disgusting, but I HIGHLY encourage you to watch some of these games. Check the BREAKDOWN section.
STRATEGY / BUILD
Simple gameplay, here are the main ideas:
Step 1: patrol gens and try to find a survivor quickly. This is the most critical step. Be sneaky, don't waste time in loops, switch target if needed.
Step 2: facecamp the survivor until they die (be patient)
Step 3: if other survivors manage to unhook, keep tunneling the same survivor, wait 5-10 sec to bait endurance. When survivors attempt to unhook, avoid hitting them as experienced survivors will try to bait you, ideally, try to grab them while they unhook.
Step 4 (optional): once 1 survivor is dead it's pretty easy to finish the game usually, but if you want to guarantee 4K, camp the 3 gens that are closest to each other, injure survivors so they all make noise, exploit their altruism so you can get them all down, only hook them AFTER they are all down, so they can't get the hatch.
VIDEO EXAMPLE 1 FOR THE "FACECAMP" STEP (from game 2)
VIDEO EXAMPLE 2 FOR THE "TUNNELING" STEP (from game 9)
I also have some particularly obnoxious games that demonstrate the "exploit altruism" step but since this is optional and particularly toxic let's skip that part.
BREAKDOWN
Here is a summary of each game, with a video link (time stamped directly to the most interesting part).
First game of the show, good to demonstrate the strategy. Started with Trapper as I thought he would be a good facecamper. Found Claudette quickly then stayed right in front of the hook . Nobody went to help her, so she DC'd after about 1 minute (5 gens left) leaving the game 3v1, her teammates were not fast enough with gens and it was relatively easy to finish.
Result: 4 kills, 1 gen left
A slightly better fight from survivors, showing that some are used to facecamping killers. Note that I have now switched to Nurse to increase the chance of DCs (this is my first game with Nurse - hope that it's obvious from the gameplay). I started to facecamp Leon but this time his team managed to distract me away from the hook, regardless I ended up getting a grab on the person who attempted to unhook and win easily.
Result: 4 kills, 5 gens left
Another very altruistic lobby, survivors try very hard to prevent me from tunneling David and even manage to successfully make me lose him, so I hook and camp Feng instead. Survivors try to save her too but this time I manage to down all of them.
Quite a sad game to be honest as I missed almost every blink and yet the whole game still ends in 5 minutes because survivors were too altruistic.
Result: 4 kills, 3 gens left
Not a very interesting game. I camp David, survivors make quick attempts at saving him but soon give up. David dies at 4 gens (!!). From there the game is easy to finish (although it takes me 7 more minutes to find the remaining survivors).
Result: 4 kills, 2 gens left
A very sad game as survivors really try to save their teammate but end up losing everything for it. Very touching survivors and merciless game from me, do not watch if you're faint-hearted. On a side note, I think this game illustrates well how disgusting you can play if you want to deny survivors the hatch: the game is clearly over after 3 min 30 s, yet it still takes me 15 more minutes to finish the last 3 survivors and ensure no one gets the hatch.
Result: 4 kills, 1 gen left
- Game 6: https://youtu.be/3zdffOIFdS8
Very poor game from both sides, not much to say about it. Bad SWF, bad gameplay from me (Note: following the previous game, I equipped Whispers to have a easier time finding the remaining 3 survivors - I will later switch to "Spies from the Shadows")
Result: 4 kills, 3 gens left
- Game 7: https://youtu.be/KVfalvEuHvQ?t=7
Another sad game. Hooked Nea right after start, someone DC's 30 seconds later, leaving everybody else hopeless. Survivors acted so cute that I considered letting them win and cancelling the game but eh, he DC'd after the hook so it's not really my fault, and I don't feel like that's what the majority of killers do when playing against me, so no mercy.
Result: 4 kills, 5 gens left
Best survivors I've faced so far, now the MMR finally went a bit up. This is a very telling game, worth watching as a whole (Warning: it is also very triggering, if you're a survivor main)
Here I found Cheryl quickly, but she was clearly a good player, so I gave up the chase and went for her teammates instead. I started to tunnel Kate, but only after a long chase, and by the time I hooked her for the first time there were only 2 gens remaining. From there it should be a loss for me, but as usual solo queuers try too hard to save their teammates and end up losing their advantage. Kate dies while Nancy attempts hoplessly to save her. By the time I hook Nancy still 2 gens remain. Nancy gets saved while I get greedy and damage a nearby gen, gives a fight and has DS which makes me lose time, but still not enough for her teammates to finish the remaining gens.
Result: 4 kills, 1 gen left
A rather easy game. Got Ash quickly, but his team tried hard to save him, bodyblocking, tanking hits etc. I could still tunnel him and get the other survivors shortly after.
Result: 4 kills, 4 gens left
- Game 10: https://youtu.be/fpAeqoe6C20?t=160
Another sad game. Clearly low MMR survivors, game was already over after 3 minutes when I grabbed the person who tried to unhook.
Result: 4 kills, 3 gens left
- Game 11: https://youtu.be/_siSwVFuDaw?t=241
Now this is the first truly heartbreaking game. Likely a SWF stack as these girls played very altruistic and 2 of them had the exact same skin, one Claudette even tried to disguise as the other so I would hook her instead when they were all down. Everybody tried to save the tunneled survivor but did not manage.
Result: 4 kills, 2 gens left
- Game 12: https://youtu.be/4QIOAuqHcys?t=55
Low MMR survivors, caught Claudette in 1 minute, very easy game, except for one thing: I tried to end the match too quickly at the end and almost gave Cheryl a chance to get hatch, this could have ended the streak.
Result: 4 kills, 3 gens left
- Game 13: https://youtu.be/lFNeHigQ_q8?t=73
Regular tunneling game, caught Mikaela, camped her, teammates ended up being grabbed while saving her.
Result: 4 kills, 2 gens left
Absolutely heartbreaking game. Tunneled Claudette but Nea managed to skillfully bait me and unhook her without getting grabbed (which shows just how often solo queue players have to face it). Claudette rage quitted, seeing what happened, survivors gave up and/or tried to act cute.
Conclusion
I humbly ask you, DbD game developers, to do me a favor and watch some of these games, especially game 14, and tell me if that matches your vision of how the game should be played, because actually, it matches what I've been getting lately as a solo queue survivor.
I trust that you have data that shows that the game is not killer-sided so I will refrain from debating balance, in fact I don't doubt that SWFs and/or the combination of old DS/BT/DH was too strong in some circumstances.
However, what seems clear to me, is that:
- The game may be not killer-sided, or survivor-sided, but it is definitely tryhard-sided. I think this echoes what Otzdarva said in a video: "DBD is extremely survivor-sided ?". Basically, your game can be fun under the assumption that people will play nice, but the rules and balance of the game do not prevent you to be extremely toxic. For example, camping a hooked survivor is seen as a d* move by most of the community, and yet managing to land a grab on someone who tries to unhook was multiple times a game-winning move for me.
- The game is full of anti-fun mechanics for survivors: very long gens that people don't want to do, one shot mechanics like NOED or grabbing a survivor who attempts to unhook, having to rely on killer's kindness to get hatch, survivor having to wait 4 minutes on ground if killer doesn't want to pick them up (hatch again), etc. Killers do not have to face such mechanics, and most importantly, do not rely on 3 random teammates to play the game.
- MMR doesn't work. I've played many PvP games, it seems unconceivable to me to get a 18 win streak against human players. Just think of it. 18 games x 4 kills each = 72 survivors dead. That's a LOT of people time wasted so that just one guy can have fun (me).
So, I don't know if I will continue playing and see if I can achieve longer streak, but ultimately, what has made me stop playing for now, is not toxic survivors, Dead Hard, DS, it is not gen rushing nor SWFs, ultimately the thing that makes me stop playing is just how heartbreaking some of the games must have been for survivors. If you've been in one of these games I hope you understand and wish you a nice day.
Comments
The game being killer sided at the beginning is nothing new.
As I said earlier, 300 hours isn't a lot. I don't think the "smurf" affects the rating much.
But the MMR should kick in at some point.
If I win several matches with the same killer, I quickly go against 5k-hours teams or more. (Granted, I'm getting close to 3k hours).
I've got three accounts myself (I've tried to play against "myself" for some tests, and I've got an account on console) and I've been pitted against good players pretty quickly (maybe ten games).
I never saw any trournament where facecamping was used as an "effective strategy"
It was meant for a short summary of what his original post was tbh 😅
Oh that i know, that has been like this since day one.
It was merely to point out that the tactics he uses will work mostly on newer players.
I basically call every new account while having another account with a few hundred hours a smurf account.
Sure at some point MMR kicks in, but not that much that you play against high MMR players.
Even someone with a few thousand hours can still be an average MMR.
Which is totally fine.
My point is just that when you get to a certain MMR, these tactics barely work anymore.
Bit the op thinks that it will work all the time, no matter the MMR 🤷🏼♂️
Number of hours doesn't guarantee an high MMR, yes. On the killer side it's obvious. I'm not versing the same kind with my Nurse or my Huntress than I do with my Trickster or Sadako. The thousands of hours survivor I verse usually tend to be pretty strong though.
Your point is exactly why I'm puzzled at the streak. No decent team will go down with these tactics, no way. Even the greenest survivor get the "if the killer camps, do gens and leave" message sooner or later.
The new meta perks are Off the record, Prove Thyself, Sprint Burst/Lithe/DH, Windows, DS, Unbreakable, CoH. I probably missed a few, but if your lobby is full of OTR and Prove you are at high MMR.
note I said camping and tunneling. Here is the link to Swish's Tournament Finals, I highly recommend you check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXlLWcQLufoGame 1: Nea gets camped and tunneled till 2nd stage. From post-match commentary 16:20:
I feel like the common way to use Thanatophobia in public matches is you tag as many people at the start to get as many stacks as quickly as possible. In these games (tournament matches) we're not really seeing that, right? they're kinda like tunneling one survivor down the entire time.
The only explanation I can think of for you never seeing tunneling and camping in tournament matches is that you're just not watching them at all.
UPDATE
Streak is over, I lost the 37th game (2 escaped). The video is currently uploading. It's by far one of my most embarassing games as I lost almost every chase in it and somehow didn't see a hook that was right in the middle of my screen, but hey, a loss is a loss.
While it's uploading, enjoy this very special bonus video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKkzrCRrHMcThis was my 35th game, a game where survivors played so absurdly that I ended up canceling it. Love this community <3
Considering you're a survivor main that more than likely dislikes this strategy when used against yourself, I'm would think you would try to play by the survivor handbook.
I did not catch you were playing Nurse, but let me tell you something. Low MMR survivors can be destroyed by a blinkless perkless Nurse as long as the player understands basic chase mechanics. I have videos of doing just that during the old ranking system.
Until you reached survivors that know how to play, you're just clubbing baby seals and bragging how easy it is.
*happy leatherface noises*
I think the people talking about MMR are missing the point. This strategy should result in a 4 man escape against any level of player. The OP should have lost the first game or at least been limited to 1 kill. Anything else is a failure of game design.
This patch made that strategy easier. It existed before this patch. Both are undeniably true.
That doesn't mean the solution is to revert the changes. But the devs need to be more proactive with solutions for this for the health of the game.
I feel this is all really simple.
After the third Nurse game in a row, I was gonna give up on listening to you but gave you another shot, only to watch another Nurse game. In 5 matches of yours, because I'm not gonna watch all of them, I saw 1 Trapper match and 4 Nurse matches. And I am extremely confident in saying that your survivors were veeerrrryy low caliber. First match I see you take a while to down 1 person, yet it takes them 2 minutes in to do 2 gens when they could have done that in 1:30. And the only reason you were able to move after that was because the hooked person gave up. Even with your hard face camping, those guys got to 1 gen, and probably should have been more efficient, and then you had to slug them just to stop the last gen from being done. The rest are just Nurse matches, and I'm gonna be honest, I didn't watch much of them. Nurse is the best killer in the game, who can beat survivors perkless, especially the ones you were getting. I mean, look at your perk builds, man. I couldn't beat survivors running those builds in my wildest dreams. So all you've proven is that against bad survivors, DCers, and overall inefficient people, killer can win by face camping. Wow, what a shocker. Now just to get to high MMR with Pig or Pinhead and we'll see how much your strategy holds up.
Those aren't the problems. He's facing bad survivors. It's clear as day. He doesn't even have the "unbeatable" Thana/Deadlock build, and he's playing NURSE!
So if I just hook someone and stand there, I'll get a free win?
You cannot seriously have watched the Nurse games and concluded that Nurse was a factor for the wins.
I don't get it either... lol
You could even try this with the perk “deadlock” and watch as you just casually win every game. Deadlock blocks a generator with the most progress for 30 seconds when a gen is complete. So that’s an easy way to waste a lot of time without putting pressure. The rest of your perk loadout could be “scourge hook: pain resonance” and just hook/camp them on scourge hooks to automatically damage gens. Then maybe “grim embrace” (when all 4 survivors have been hooked, every generator is blocked for 30 seconds). that one might be iffy but definitely could be useful in a lot of situations. Then as your last perk either maybe dead man’s switch or sloppy butcher or whatever you want. Point is, deadlock and even pain resonance are broken for camping and tunneling. You could also either do “save the best for last” as your 4th perk to kill the unhooker or (this one is more for just camping and not tunneling) you can use “scourge hook: gift of pain” and just keep hook trading the survivors and giving them all -13% to repair speed giving you more time to camp out their hook timer. Point is, camping and tunneling is broken especially with certain perks. You’ll win every game
I didn't really have to. He's! Nurse! The #1 killer that survivors have complained about the most in recent months, and who has probably the only legitimate complaints levied against her. What other killers have to do to get survivors, who at least know how to run loops, is give them a head start, catch up, mindgame the window/pallet or brute force the pallet drop/entity blocker, hit them ONCE, catch up to the sprint burst, repeat the previously mentioned loop shenanigans, hit them again FINALLY and only then do they get the down. That's without body blocks, instaheals, exhaustion perks, having to brute force Bloodlust, etc. What does Nurse have to do? Blink close to them, blink closer, hit, repeat, down. The survivors can try to mindgame her, but she can mostly wait it out, or predict them as equally as they're predicting her, and that all results in a 10-second(?) longer chase. So of course Nurse is gonna be able to win more consistently by face camping, because survivors can't put anything between her and them. Unless you want to explain to me how non-Nurse M1 killers can beat good survivors just by face camping, which the OP has failed to do, I'm not buying any of this. Therefore, we don't need to nerf killers or roll back buffs because "face camp = ez win".
Yeah, no. I'm sorry. If you saw these matches and though "yeah, Nurse is really too strong", I can't really take you seriously on that subject.
So you think ONLY the fact that he was face camping people is the reason he did so well? How did he get someone on the hook? Why was he able to get away with running 1 perk, or lvl 1 and lvl 2 perks, besides the fact the survivors were bad of course? I don't know if he's doing it intentionally, or if he's more sincere than I'm giving him credit for, but you don't go and pick a majority Nurse matches, not Ghost Face or Pig or Wraith or Demogorgon, and say "X is why killer overall is OP!" Y'all know better than to call this experiment legit.
I think the point OP was trying to prove that: Camping is effective in low or mid MMR.
Yes, the new player experience is important. But it's not important for balancing. From the time that players learn to play the game onward, there's gonna be camping and gen rushing, and there's nothing that the other side can do about it because they don't know what to do, and even if they do they lack the experience to execute the counterplay. So this whole new spin on "face camping is getting worse" "tunneling is getting worse" is BS. It always has and always will be a thing. You just see it complained about more now because killer got a recent buff, and I'll also bet there's a new generation of survivor mains who just hit the forums. So if we're just talking about this experiment to show off how annoying face camping is for new players, it's fine. But I believe it was the OP's intention, and the intention of many people who have replied to this post, to use this as a basis for balancing. "We need to revert the killer buffs OR introduce a new game mechanic that punishes killers for camping/tunneling!" is what I'm hearing.
I'm hearing people complain about the state of the game, especially in regards to new killer builds, as if it's the most unhealthy we've had. It isn't. I think the last meta we had for killers was unhealthy (for the killers!) because it was Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out, which was guaranteed slowdown that survivors actually couldn't do anything against. People said the meta was Pop/Ruin or Pain Res/DMS. It wasn't (except for mid MMR), because every time I used those builds at high MMR I lost, and every time I used Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out I at least felt I had a chance of winning no matter the circumstances. Even back then, the way to win was tunneling and 2-hooking. Deviate from it and lose.
Gens are still too fast. Call Of Brine/Overcharge actually does nothing if the survivors simply come behind you and gen tap. The only time gens feel normal is when Thana/Pentimento is up; there's time for multiple chases! But even still, at the highest MMR or with SWF or with the right gen speed tools, survivors can still push through. That forces killers to camp and tunnel just to play it safe. So we're still dealing with the issue of killers needing to tunnel, camp, and use gen slowdown to win, which is too much for solos and people unprepared for the killer to play dirty (which he's allowed to do), and everyone points the finger at the killer like they're a bad person for trying to win.
So the real problem is, "How do we allow killers to tunnel and camp without it being oppressive, while also making sure killers have a chance to win without those strategies?" My stance was, and still is, to make going for hooks over kills viable. That means not nerfing perks like Pain Res and Pop, and that means making perks like Dying Light and Grim Embrace viable.
So the real problem is, "How do we allow killers to tunnel and camp without it being oppressive, while also making sure killers have a chance to win without those strategies?" My stance was, and still is, to make going for hooks over kills viable. That means not nerfing perks like Pain Res and Pop, and that means making perks like Dying Light and Grim Embrace viable.
This is the problem I have with how forum killers approach camping/tunnelling. This is a very oft repeated argument: Just make going for hooks more effective.
And then they do. And tunnelling and camping become a bigger problem, and we're still on this argument.
Killers have been completely unwilling to concede anything for game health, at all. We've had loads of survivor nerfs over time, and a ton of them were accepted. Hatch is gone? Fine, it wasn't fun. DS getting its EGC usage clipped? Fine, that wasn't fun either. Removed Endurance stacking? Yeah, that wasn't fun either. Gen speeds are getting slowed? Risky, but if it helps killers have a better time...
Yet throughout everything that has been demanded to get removed from survivors, everything survivors agreed to give up to improve killer gameplay, throughout all of it, forum killers have been utterly unwilling to budge on the issue of camping and tunnelling.
Let me ask you: Why on earth do you want to keep tunnelling and camping?
According to you, and many others who defend this stuff, it's a bad tactic that doesn't work against competent survivors. If that is the case, then nerfing those tactics would ONLY improve the new player experience, and have zero effect on the higher ranks of play where these tactics are supposedly untenable.
In reality, camping and tunnelling are used as beatsticks and empty promises. If the devs do anything we don't like, we'll camp and tunnel more. If they do stuff we want, we'll totally tunnel and camp less.
And five nerfs later, camping and tunnelling will still be in the game. And they'll continue to be in the game, no matter how much survivors get nerfed or killers get buffed. They'll continue to be problems, and forum killers will continue to defend it with more 'maybe if the game was a bit easier for kilers, we'd camp less'.
on low MMR you can kill survivors simply by looking at them.
By all means try your effective facecamping strategy all you want, see how far that takes you :))
The game is specifically designed in a way that you'll never really be able to stop people from camping or tunneling, it just isn't possible on a fundamental level. The developers themselves have chosen on their own that kills are more important than hooks, despite plenty of people championing the idea that the health of the game would be better if it were balanced around hooks. The keyword here is balanced, because you have to balance the game around an entirely different way and statistics that are completely different than kills/escapes, and it will never happen.
All this said I dislike the idea that camping and tunneling shouldn't be allowed. I think if a game is spiraling out of your control because the survivors are very good, then your literal best option to win is to tunnel someone or play smart. Well, if losing is so irrelevant, why bother doing gens? I think if you've got 3 survivors injured all doing gens, one on the hook, and they greed to do those 3 gens, then a killer shouldn't be punished for planting their ass in front of that hook to force a hook state/death, because those survivors chose to do gens rather than heal.
I mean what do we do here? Give every unhooked survivor, without the use of perks, 100% immunity until full healed, where they also can't touch a gen? Obviously you would have to give them 0 collision. Do we give any survivor in x radius to a hook damage immunity until they unhook another survivor, and then give them immunity to one shots after the unhook for x time? Just give people free saves, free escapes? And then do we say "Well, good killers don't camp and tunnel, so this should be fine anyway" or something?
The game is specifically designed in a way that you'll never really be able to stop people from camping or tunneling
Sure, you can never completely stop it.
But you can introduce drawbacks. DS was almost perfect before its most recent double nerf. It just needed to be disabled post fifth-gen, and work off both hooks, but instead we got an EGC disable and, for whatever reason, 40% off the stun timer.
Baseline DS would work to make tunnelling not unconditionally the best option. And slowing the hook timer exponentially for every survivor on a gen would force the killer to go out and pressure gens rather than camp, unless survivors are doing a stand-off at the hook.
But any discussion, -any- discussion about doing something about camping/tunnelling will always be met with 'can't be done', 'they're valid strats', 'they only work on low level', 'if the game was easier for killers, they wouldn't camp/tunnel as much!', or some unholy amalgamation of the four.
They need to be nerfed. And until they are, survivors should stop having to make concessions, because there's no reciprocity.
Probably you guys call out camping and tunneling far more often than you should. It just makes it pointless to talk about it. I mean I saw people calling out camping and tunneling for every single reason in the world, as long as they were not able to escape. I mean their entire team danced around me (basically they camped me right from the start) no matter who I chased and when I killed them all, they were upset about me supposedly camping because.... I don't know. I didn't run away from survivors dancing around me?
You've missed my point. I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win. I literally felt ill when I tried to play for fun and intentionally not camp/tunnel because I've been conditioned so long to do it, and I felt I gave up a match I could have won. I'm tired of killers being pressured into playing in a way that causes them to lose.
You're not really saying why stuff that helps going for hooks makes tunneling and camping "worse". Those would stay about the same, no? But you didn't get Pop, Pain Resonance, Ruin, or Dead Man's Switch value if you were camping or tunneling; there's no time to pressure gens AND tunnel/camp. So how would buffing Dying Light or Grim Embrace make tunneling worse?
Many killers have been willing to let things go for balance, like NOED and moris and even Spirit. The rest was robbed from us: Freddy nerf, Wraith nerf, Deathslinger nerf, Pinhead nerf (#########?). Those, among other nerfs, didn't need to happen, because they weren't too strong, and now there's less killer diversity than ever.
Survivors on the other hand have fought tooth and nail to keep every last tool that they had, even when they were blatantly broken. They're always claiming that entity blocker, removing infinites, Bloodlust, removing 5-feet-apart pallets were all JUST killer buffs. Those were done "because the devs cater to baby killers". In reality those were done for, what you said, game health. And the fact that we're even arguing the removal of endgame DS, hatch, and Endurance stacking shows crazy survivor bias.
I feel that survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to when killers get theirs, because killers have traditionally sucked and survivors were the power role. Killers got a few qol buffs, a few minor perk buffs, and suddenly the game is "broken" and "killer favored". Survivors got their "free escape in endgame" stuff nerfed, rightfully so, but they got BT for free now. They got a mere 10 seconds added onto gens, whilst toolboxes and Prove Thyself we're left untouched, and perks like Deja Vu and Overzealous were buffed. Gens do not take "forever".
Maybe tunneling and camping can't be fixed. If you make it to where killers can't do it, then we've simply transitioned from endgame perks leading to free escapes, to someone being on hook leading to a free escape. And don't even start with saying that killers camp and tunnel in response to bad balance. They do it to win. Whereas survivors always mass DC on hook, like they're doing now, when killers get a buff. "That's too strong! Rage quit!"
At some point killers are gonna get nerfed again, and it's probably gonna be unfair. If it's a nerf to tunneling or camping, I can guarantee you the devs are gonna mess it up, and give killers nothing in return. I don't like talking about nerfs and buffs like this, the idea that there has to be a trade-off to one side when something happens to the other. But when we're talking about killer, you've got to make them feel like they can win. This is common sense on the most basic of levels. Make the 1 in the 1v4 stronger; make the killer/monster feel like a threat!
You've missed my point. I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win. I literally felt ill when I tried to play for fun and intentionally not camp/tunnel because I've been conditioned so long to do it, and I felt I gave up a match I could have won. I'm tired of killers being pressured into playing in a way that causes them to lose.
Forum killers dug that hole for themselves. You wanna keep tunnelling and camping in? Then those are the baseline. You can't win without them? Well, we can't fix that, because we can't balance for 12-hooking if killers just get the option to camp and especially tunnel, since those are more effective strategies.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You're not really saying why stuff that helps going for hooks makes tunneling and camping "worse". Those would stay about the same, no? But you didn't get Pop, Pain Resonance, Ruin, or Dead Man's Switch value if you were camping or tunneling; there's no time to pressure gens AND tunnel/camp. So how would buffing Dying Light or Grim Embrace make tunneling worse?
The only one that doesn't get value from camping is Pop, the others all work and will aid when camping. DMS can be argued to not work if none of the survivors ever let go of a gen, ever, but hey, since survivors have no baseline way to determine when a killer is camping, one of them is bound to let go of their gen to try and go for the unhook, thus losing time and locking the gen.
I feel that survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to when killers get theirs, because killers have traditionally sucked and survivors were the power role.
Survivors were never the power role. That parroted line has no basis in reality. I know everyone likes to trot out 'oh, but tournament play!', while disregarding that 95% of the playerbase doesn't play on that level. Back when I first saw this story being spread around, the kill rate at red ranks was 68%.
I also like that you say 'survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to killers', and then you subsequently describe half a dozen stacking baseline killer buffs as
a few qol buffs, a few minor perk buffs
This in the wake of a new trend of forum killers disregarding any criticism of the new patch with 'Survivors mad because DH got nerfed'.
They got a mere 10 seconds added onto gens
Which is a minimum of 50 extra seconds of manpower, not counting the extra space for pressure given to the killer, nor is it counting the multiplicative interaction this has with slowdown perks like Thanatophobia.
And don't even start with saying that killers camp and tunnel in response to bad balance.
There've been plenty of comments and a couple of threads.
But when we're talking about killer, you've got to make them feel like they can win.
They could always win. Otz strung together a win on every killer, perkless, add-on-less, and with 30 seconds spent AFK. It's perfectly feasible. Not every match is going to be you getting outmatched by a team pulling all the stops and showing skill outstripping your own.
But this:
I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win.
This mentality as a way to shut down criticism of camping and tunnelling is the entire problem. Because it's essentially saying that this issue's resolution is directly dependent on your individual competence.
Which means that if you play worse, you feel you deserve to tunnel and camp.
If survivors can be held to tournament standards, so can you.
Stop defending camping and tunnelling.
Play better.
I mean just think about the logic of this.
"Once you start winning with facecamping, you'll face harder survivors and facecamping will be harder."
This is true, but why is it true? It's not true because better survivors will rescue from the hook and deny the killer their kill while doing the objectives. It's true because two things will happen:
Better survivors might know how to force a trade, but forcing a trade requires two survivors to coordinate with each other which means there's a good chance they both get injured and aren't doing generators. But, even good survivors, if they just happen to mess up once at the beginning, will have a lot of difficulty with this strategy if it happens at 5 gens left. And there are perks to make that easier! And this all assumes that the person on the hook doesn't just immediately get tunneled and go down in 10 seconds!
At the end of the day, the first question regarding facecamping is, "Is this type of gameplay engaging and fun?" Can anyone answer yes to this question? "I enjoy playing as survivor in games where the killer uses this strategy even if I win or lose." Even when I win, this strategy is boring and not fun. And it can even be stressful as I watch the generator repair slowly tick up and hope my teammates are doing the same and hope that I'm not the second person downed.
The next question is, "Does the amount of skill needed to employ this strategy require a similar amount of skill from the other side to counter?" The counter to this strategy is, "Deny the killer an early down and then ignore the hooked survivor and hope they don't suicide." That means that to successfully counter this strategy and get 4 people out requires you to pretty much NEVER get hit the entire game. If anybody ever goes down and gets hooked, that's a kill. Unless they can coordinate a save with exactly one other survivor while the other one is doing generators. And also potentially 3-gening themselves after the camped person dies. I just don't think that's a reasonable metric for a "terrible strategy that doesn't work."
Every killer player should recognize this isn't a healthy part of the game. The fact that killer players are defending this by saying, "When you play against better survivors it will stop working," just assumes that a person who is bad at the game is the only one ever employing this strategy. Or that it's ok for new players to have to deal with this.
You don't start winning because of facecamping on teams with half brain. If you won by facecamping people, you would have won easily in any other way also. I mean I'm not against proposals to fix "facecamping" I just played long enough to know what works and what doesn't. Putting equal pressure on the entire team makes me win games much faster and much more effectively than if I would use these pointless facecamping methods. Not to mention it would be boring as hell sitting around instead of hunting.
Some people might think it's good to hang around the hook and piss off beginners but in high MMR matches, you most likely lose doing that.
I can say no right, I guess.
UPDATE
Following yesterday's loss (2K), I think it'd be tempting to say that it's because I'm now reaching high MMR, but I don't think that is the explanation. If you watch the game (game 37) I did pretty much every mistake possible, lost most of the chases and failed to tunnel the 1st hooked person, so it was more on me than on survivors.
But anyway, to check this hypothesis, I played 4 new games and as I expected all of them went 4K again.
I think I will stop playing for now as I'm bored playing Nurse and I think the streak already went far beyond my expectations. Besides in the last few games a lot of people have threatened to report me and I don't really want to lose my account like that, see eg. last screenshot above or this very salty streamer:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1549234294?t=00h12m43smeta perks? After the patch, there's still a single meta perk for survivors? How fascinating.
they are doing sweaty SWF against baby killers, please tell me more
youre camping strategy now is the same camping strategy campers used before. so this entire experiment was pointless. you did nothing original.
if you played nurse you decided to use the games strongest killer to prove an already weak point most of us are aware of; yes camping often works. This isn't news.
you opened a new account using your 300 hours of skill and playtime to smurf on baby survivors
the mods/devs should lock this entire thread because this is absolutely asinine.
lastly you mentioned multiple dcs. Do you really count those as wins? Ill count them just to have the data but they get their own slot as "i won only because someone quit, not because i outplayed them"
do this again. do it on your own main account and real mmr against real players. do it with anyone but nurse/ blight/spirit, and do not count the games people dc/kill themselves on hook.
you will not win this much. point blank.
this was a flimsy experiment where you ruined a lot of peoples games for no reason.
nurse is the hardest killer in the game especially for beginners, and she has the lowest kill rates for a reason, so yeah, he's playing NURSE and he still 4k
But how does that prove how Ghost Face or Pig can get an automatic win by face camping? Because he's saying that you can win, with any killer, by doing this. We can't just look at kill rates of Blight and Nurse, especially against noob survivors and say, "Wow, killer's OP." But that's exactly what people have been doing.
Well said man. It's so weird that a lot of killers claim that tunnel/camp is a loss strategy, and yet they also claim to have to resort to tunnel/camp to have a chance to win, therefore it can not be nerfed, funny how that works
Like a nurse tunneling and camping vs baby survivors? How is using the top killer and what is recognized as one of the top strats especially vs new players any different from swfing to win?
Camp/tunnel success is largely due to survivors being boneheads. The degree of success early on with this will fade as MMR goes higher.
you were saying he won because he played Nuser, but in reality, Nurse is the worst choice for him, and he still won. Therefore, your Nurse claim is null
You clearly have never played Nurse, do you even know that Nurse has the lowest kill rate? Why is that? Because any mediocre killer cant use her well, and OP is a "Beginner" Killer as most of you called him, and him playing Nurse is the worst possible choice and yet he still won. I think this proves so much more than a group of 4 men veteran SWF playing sweaty hardcore against baby killers.
Except he's playing "baby nurse" vs baby survivors, who don't know where gens are, who dont know totem spawns, who probably don't know how to loop. You could probably play m1 nurse and win with basic tile knowledge and not even blink vs brand new survivors and get 4ks. It's absolutely baffling that DBDs community takes smurfing examples as proof of balance changes needed.
Game 35 was against survivors who had 1.5k hours. In general most of my later games had a few good loopers, boon totems, people bodyblocking for the tunneled person, sometimes SWFs, etc. Not to say that all these survivors are high MMR, but they are definitely not babies, in fact they use tactics that I have never seen survivors do on my main at 300 hours, so I'm probably higher MMR than my main survivor account.
Also in case you don't know, it's very uneffective to loop against Nurse, so you won't see many survivors do that. Rather people are baiting my blinks and breaking LOS which doesnt look that impressive in the video but I can guarantee you that it's a pain to play against and I often had to switch target, eg. the Feng in game 36.
But since you all seem to pretend the problem is Nurse being OP rather than the strategy then it's perfect as it gives me a good excuse to switch killer. I think I'll play Trickster but am open to suggestions (I don't think chainsaw killers are good choices because, while it's great to be able to down the rescuer instantly, I can already down them with grabs anyway, and I'd rather play a killer that cannot be looped in case the tunneled person is rescued).
Not sure why you mentioned me there but i do agree, using only nurse for this doesn't prove all that much if you don't play every killer.
@ImNotBobDylan you are reaching average MMR, you have a way to go till you reach that trust me.
And i encourage you to play my favourite killer at high MMR and see how you do.
My main and favourite killer is the wraith without and speed add ons, yes i never ever touched windstorm whatsoever.
Believe this or not that is entirely up to you.
About 2 or so years ago i have faced a comp team on a farm map (can't remember which) and this was before the map reworks and before wraith got any of his buffs.
I don't think I'll have to tell you how this match went i presume?
I will tell you this, it was 1 hell of a sweat fest.
Got 5 hooks in total and 1 kill.
Trust me when i say, if you reach that level you will notice that your experiment will fail miserably.
I will applaud you if you can get the same or better then mine result.
why is it for many ppl so hard to see, that the new update is making it way easier for facecampers? Now you need at least 50 seconds more for all gens. With Thana even longer. So? Where can you not see this?
Removing the 5 second stun from DS makes it even more easy to tunnel the guy outa the game, cause you gain almost 0 distance after the stun, especially playing vs Nurse.
How ist it so hard to see, that the new update only makes facecamping worse? + tunneling easier than before. I am a 6000h surv who was playing dh and ds almost every game.
best wishes to the community out there
My goal is to demonstrate that someone with barely any experience on killer can get an absurd level of success with anti-fun strategies and with little skill involved.
And your response to that, is that, if I would play the worst killer in the game (Wraith), WITHOUT addon, and against high MMR players, maybe I would get looped to death and fail. Like OK but why? You are completely missing the point.
The point of my thread is not to nerf killer for people who play fair for survivors or constraint themselves to absurd loadouts.
The point is that, maybe YOU are nice and play Wraith and survivors have a good game against you, but that's not the typical killer experience these days. You have to realize, for one person that plays killer like you do, there will be one person who plays killer like I do, trying as hard as possible to win even if that means using douche strats and making the survivor experience miserable. The state of Wraith is irrelevant to this discussion, the developers could perfectly nerf every douche strategy without altering the experience for killers who are not using these strategies. In fact, by advocating for these douche strats to stay in the game, you are accepting to let the killrates be much higher than they should, and killer role will probably end up getting nerfed, including Wraith.
Lol i never said wraith without add ons, read it again please 😅
Second, this point has been proven since day 1.
Every person who just picks up the game can do this and succeed in it, you prove nothing new here.
As i mentioned as well as many others already did, the game at low MMR i killer favoured.
The game at high MMR is the complete opposite.
So yes of course you can use this tactic and win without much knowledge of the game.
Your point, as you stated in your original post, was to prove that you can always 4k with this tactic, never dis you mentioned at what side of the mmr spectrum.
That is why I and many others told you many times over, trying to prove that this is a ######### but a strategy that will always work in low MMR is pointless.
Everyone with only half a braincell will know this.
If you really want to prove a point that this strategy will work regardless of whatever MMR you are, than you need to apply this strategy at high MMR.
Otherwise this holds no ground.
Edit: little side note, wraith is far from the worst killer 😂
Especially when you know how to play him 😉
You played at rock bottom MMR, your not playing bubba. The survivors were not doing gens and mostly feeding it to you. I do this with bubba and am on a 23 win streak. But easily over half the games peps tried to save in my face or not do gens therefore guaranteeing the win.
It isn't. It's not that hard to play Nurse if you're not on console. He's clearly not brand I'm saying that it's a terrible example to show "how OP this killer strategy is" when he's playing Nurse. Maybe he didn't just play Nurse, because I watched 5 games, but I saw 1 Trapper and 4 Nurses. And I didn't see good survivors either. So he hasn't proven anything. You keep dismissing that he's playing Nurse because he's newer, but whatever happened to "killer is OP at the beginner level, so we should take beginners into account too"? It's still not the face camping alone that's causing him to won. And besides, is he really a beginner Nurse if he's going through this much effort to prove a point on the forums, similar to how those of us with lots of experience would do?