What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?
So, I'm going to lay out my own position first so nobody's engaging under false pretences- while I don't think NOED is necessarily "fine", I think that it is by no means OP, unfair, or unhealthy. I think it's a mediocre, inconsistent perk that provides very little value at a point in the game where you're running up against the clock to actually use that value.
But... that is not the overriding opinion of the community. The community seems pretty split, and a lot of people seem to think NOED is unfair and/or unhealthy. I've never seen a good argument as to why, so that's what I'm asking for here! If you think NOED is unfair, unhealthy, or OP, tell me why!
Specifically I'm looking for a little more detail- I've seen people say, for instance, that NOED "gives unearned kills" or "rewards bad play", but never any explanation of why they think it does either of those. I do genuinely want to know the reasons behind thinking this way, this isn't a bad faith gesture, but I also will probably prod you for a little more explanation if something doesn't seem to make sense.
Let's try and keep it civil, though! No sense chiming in just to state that you don't think NOED is an unhealthy perk.
Comments
The endgame rewards facecamping in general, and NOED is actively weaker if you facecamp since it gives the survivors time to go cleanse the totem. If you get a hook near the totem and facecamp, survivors have no reason not to just leave. NOED is already very inconsistent, but facecamping with it practically guarantees you'll get one kill and that's it- not even that if the survivors are good.
Well thats the thing is if survivors focus on cleansing then you get two kills either way since by the time the one on hook dies, realistically they won't have all gens done, AND all totems snuffed. NOED is a tie guarantee hence why people don't like it.
I think, if NOED wasn't a hex and required the killer to hook all four survivors once before the fifth gen pops: even if then NOED would be permanent... the killer would have to actively work for it. If you're hit by it, it'd be by a killer that worked for it all game. It wouldn't feel that unfair. That's what current NOED lacks. Now its all down to RNG.
...If NOED is active, all the generators are done?
I'm not talking about cleansing all five dull totems, I've mentioned above that I think that's not especially realistic, I'm talking about cleansing the one that lights up when NOED activates.
That would hit the problem I outlined a few messages ago- that would just weaken the current effect by making it harder to acquire, in the name of arbitrarily making the killer "earn" actually having their perk active. Not every perk needs that kind of activation requirement, if you're going to change NOED then change it all the way, no half measures.
NOED doesn't need its core nature to be changed... only its activation requirement: cause it is that requirement that makes it feel unfair for survivors, and makes it inconsistent for killers.
It's core nature isn't actually that good, and while it may feel unfair to survivors, it isn't unfair at all.
What makes it inconsistent is that it gives a pretty alright effect at a time when you're at a huge time disadvantage to actually make use of it- the fact that it can be prevented from ever activating doesn't actually come into it at all, though the fact that it can be deactivated does. Making it less reliable by making it even more possible for it to never activate at all is not the right call.
Okay but by the time they cleanse and find NOED someones already downed and hooked. What then?
noed is not unfair, i personally, as a killer think it is a cheap way to get kills.
Just cleanse and save like usual?
It's easy without NOED.
...Then NOED isn't in the game anymore and it's solely down to other factors? I buy that saving is difficult while NOED is up, but when it isn't up anymore then saving becomes the normal difficulty.
I said that if NOED "wasn't a hex", and was permanent (after getting four tokens) when the last gen popped... it wouldn't feel as unfair to me. I'll illustrate:
*one game. A Demo hooked everyone multiple times during the trial. He hits us with NOED and got four kills. I didn't feel it as unfair cause the demo outplayed us all game.
*an other game. A Wraith tunneled me for five gens. And managed to kill me and another teammate because of NOED... he snowballed so hard he wasn't far from getting a three/ four kills. It doesn't feel fair that one perk allows a killer that does so poorly all game to snowball as much.
If you change NOED activation requirements, you can change which killers will be able to snowball. And it should only be a killer that plays well.
I think it's fine. End game should have more risk to survivors, and sadly this perk and maybe bloodwarden is the best you're going to get. I'd be more concerned about balancing for NOED if exit gates decayed, and the doors shut after a certain amount of time like they do in Home Sweet Home.
NoED isn't unfair, its just unfun. All exposed perks are unfun, its not fun to get 1 shot and/or have to play super safe because of it. Every one shot is unfun and feels cheap: Myers, Haunted, ect.
Its just a exposed hex that activated during end game. It has reasonable counters like cleansing after it procs like any other Hex. Devour Hope gives exposed and what do you do? You cleanse it. This is just end game Devour Hope.
Additionally survivors don't like it because they don't accept endgame as part of the match, they think they won already when that's not the case.
If the RNG aligns and the survivor happens to go down near the totem yes, they can be facecamped. That's just the nature of RNG, sometimes it gives you BS scenarios. Unless you want to make NoED not a hex, that can't be fixed, and I don't think people will be happy with NoED that can't be cleansed.
Idk where this notion of having to "earn" perks effects came from either and it seems to only come up when NoED is talked about. You don't earns Lithe, Sprint Burst, Botany, Windows of O., Dead Hard, and ect. you just have it. The killer plays with 1 perk down the majority of the trial. You take the downside for the effect if you think its worth it. That's the deal you make, you hinder yourself for most of the match to get an effect. That's how you "buy" the effect, by hindering yourself the rest of the trial when you could of had Pain Resonance or something in that slot.
The killer still has to chase and hit that survivor. The killer has to forgo other perks that would help during the entire trial. The survivors can cleanse the single hex just like any other. There's perks and a map item to help find totems. Its only active for the end of the match. You have the option to be safe and stop it entirely.
Tl;dr: The perk is fine from a balance standpoint, it just feels bad to play against because the match is close to the end and because its an expose perk.
I think that what people are really angry about is the fact that NOED actually punishes bad play more than it "rewards" it.
The only people who get killed when NOED is in play are the ones who got cocky because they knocked out all five gens with no deaths and then throw themselves at the hook during the endgame.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: NOED is an opt-in perk. Yeah, you might get instadowned if you're directly in front of a killer when the last gen pops, but if your team gets 4K'd during the EGC, it's your own damn fault.
Sometimes people think they've got the game in the bag because they did all the gens in six minutes with their BNP squad, so they get overconfident and play badly during the endgame going for saves that they shouldn't attempt because they've convinced themselves that they've already won. And then they die. And that makes them mad.
NOED punishes survivor stupidity. Walking away is always an option.
So i had a game. Against an endgame spirit. 2 e 2 d. The 2 e was me and a random. We got out because i cleansed noed and bought time and sabo. Noed is fine. It adds danager and excitement to the game. Just because gens are done doesnt mean its over. Survivors need to get off their high horse about this perk and stfu. Seriously. All they do is cry about noed.
I will repeat: Just because the gens are done, doesn't mean the game is over. With gen speeds how it is. Sometimes a lil extra help is needed. Just like how survivors can bring perks to counter killers and play styles. Why cant killers? Noed counters genrushing by putting survivors in a lot more danger by not cleansing totems. In all honesty, if a surv is hit by noed. Tough dookie. No one cares. "Oh i got killed by noed cause killer is bad. I did gens so killer failed to stop me. Whaaaaaa"
And with all honesty i hope more killers run noed.
The build i use as survivor is breakout sabo sb mom. Incase someone wants to know a fun sabo build
NOED is only strong in solo queue. SWFs can count and call out locations for dull totems.
Had so many matches were i actually cleansed 4 dull totems with Detictives Hunch. Won't matter if you don't know about the rest of your team.
On the other hand it's very satisfying for me to prevent NOED from even happening. But with the current Boon-Meta, NOED is stronger then ever. Survs rarely cleanse dull totems these days. Even there's is at least 1 dull totem left, it's pretty much RNG if they find it in time.
Corrupt is fine. Deadlock is fine. Tinkerer is fine. Etc. Why? Because, contrary to NOED, only a good killer can snowball from it.
NoED is fine, because only good Killers can snowball from it. Bad Killers still wont: Find Survivors, chase Survivors, mindgame loops, get hits, avoid pallet/flashlight saves, and hook.
It's like people invent this negative feedback loop 'Only bad Killers use NoED, therefore only bad Killers snowball from NoED, therefore NoED helps bad Killers' and completely throw away reality to happily parrot this idiocy as if it's actualy a fact instead of what it is: The insane ramblings of salty baby Survivors upset they lost.
The amount of time invested even if its not there. you can argue thats the case for dead hard, borrowed time and decisive but you can have multiple players spending minutes of a match trying to find all and still getting in a rough spot only getting 4 and not knowing that at all until you or someone tries and goes for a save in endgame or cornered during a chase.
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All i'd like for it change wise is to make the exposed immediate on the final gen pop like it is with rancor. A perk like that should not have a "mind game" or guess factor with the ability to turn a 1k into a 2-4k
easy, if a killer doesn’t kill anyone before egc and you have as surv more rhan 500 hours... he has noed. I don’t know how someone can think this is fair and why he is at such rank level
What does having 500 hours have to do with NoED? With your 'logic' (and I use the term very loosely); no perk should offer an advantge because if it beats someone with '500 hours'; it's OP.
Or does it only apply to NoED because you having this raging hate of it?
Because a 1 hit 119% killer with few pallets, if any, is insane
Here's a counter for NoED: Do. Bones.
What's insane is that Survivors will adamantly:
It's an end-game perk; it should be strong. The Killer is planning for 5 gens to pop and running THREE DAMN PERKS the entire match. But Survivors flat out refuse to accept anything short of deleting NoED because they're too gods damned lazy to get off gens for 60 seconds.
Hell, some Survivors have claimed getting off gens is what makes NoED OP. They basically admit that being forced to stop licking gens is unfair, because all they want to do is genrush and twerk out the exit.
NoED is fine. Every 'flaw' anyone has ever said is pure bullshit and/or just a flat-out lie based on the 'basically lost' fallacy.
Just played my first game with noed. I got 2 cheap ass kills lmao
Please show me where bhvr has stated at any point that killers are required to get kills before the last generator had been done.
I'll be clear and say I personally find Devour objectionable as well (thematically very cool, gameplay wise often incredibly unfun - though I admit I'm biased because the first time I ever got hit with it I got mori'd without ever having even been found before that point, which soured me to it forever, lol. Plus I don't have suggestions on how to fix my issues with it, so I didn't bother bringing it up). But yeah, in the abstract, logical realm, you are correct - NOED isn't that different from those other scenarios, outside of the Haunted one where, again, there's a pretty clear timer involved and you're warned right away that you're screwed. This isn't really something people are arguing about from an abstract, logical place, though, and I think that's where my main issue with your arguments comes in. In the end, awesome theming aside, some perks are just....unfun to go against. And yeah, this is a horror game, and the general Vibe and Theme of the perks is really important. It's actually something I really, really like about DBD's gameplay; the thematic elements of the perks, even if they don't do much, often takes precedent over the practical application, which is a neat thing that distinguishes it from other games that are more mechanically-focused.
But...the way the players feel about the perks has to kick in at some point, right? Like it or not, a lot of people hate NOED. They find it really annoying. They find it unfun to go against. Is it fair, compared to all the other scenarios you mentioned? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think that tangling out whether or not it's fair actually helps much, though? The fact will remain that it will make people angry and upset, which is a problem.
(As a sidenote - I have to disagree with your point about it being a single kill because the other survivors would just leave. While the 'just leave' thing is definitely the strategic and logical thing to do, as I said above, this game isn't exactly an RTS. People will go back in and try to be the hero very, very often; maybe not at Super Top Tier High MMR or whatever, but in your average pub match, a lot of survivors find just leaving boring and unfun, especially if it's their friend who's up on the hook being camped.)
I would be curious to know what other perks you think are comparable to NOED in terms of not needing killer input. There's the obvious Haunted Grounds, but again, it's got a very limited timer inherently, unlike NOED, which can stay up indefinitely, so I don't really feel like it's entirely comparable. Is there another perk that can change the match so much as NOED that doesn't require the killer to do anything? Sorry if that comes off inflammatory, I'm genuinely asking.
Second sidenote - there really needs to be something in the gameplay tutorial about hexes. I've heard a lot of horror stories from new survivor players about how they got hit with NOED before they even knew what a hex was, much less how to cleanse it, which is also probably something that soured a lot of people to NOED as a concept. Especially considering how common it is among newer players. Not really related to the discussion at hand, but just worth noting as a reason people might have personal gripes with it.
I'd be fine losing NOED in exchange for Survivors losing DH. A fair trade.
I love it to happens. These days I was playing with overcome. M1 killers are dead with this perk
I think a lot of people feel like it rewards bad gameplay, which on the killers part would be letting all 5 gens get completed. Some people have the opinion that it punishes survivors for not cleansing all the totems. Depends on the person I think.
I think a lot of people feel like it rewards bad gameplay, which on the killers part would be letting all 5 gens get completed.
Except 5 gens popping means nothing; Survivors still can't escape, and they are still on the map to be killed. It's not 'bad gameplay' and that very idea is toxic, as it encourages Survivors to think they've won when 5 gens pop. Which is the entire flaw in the 'NoED rewards bad gameplay' thought process.
Thats my point. If you can't save all game because its too dangerous why would you be able to save end game?
I'm not sure I'm following, why wouldn't you be able to save before NOED activates? Is there some other part of this scenario that I'm missing...?
Because the killer would be face camping and tunneling. Thats my point of why people don't like NOED.
You can't go for save cause killer is face camping so you just pressure gens and leave. By the time the exit gates are ready the hooked person is dead. Killer gets someone else with NOED and face camps them. Guaranteed 2k no matter what.
I mean, you absolutely can go for a save if the killer's face camping, unless that killer's Bubba. Even if you couldn't, though, that's a problem with face camping and not NOED...?
Nothing.
The only thing driving the opinion its unfair is "whaaa I wanted to escape but didn't waahh" sore loserism.
I wish NOED was basekit, the endgame would be terrifying then. Every game would be a desperate fight to get out the door. That would be exciting.
Although un-counterable basekit NOED is probably a lil too over the top, one can dream though one can dream.
If they make COH basekit I’m ok with noed basekit
No lmao
The only perk that should be basekit is corrupt intervention honestly but noed? No
Idk. The game was probably only close because the killer went easy on the survs by limiting themself to 3 perks.
"Because it's the only second chance perk that reward bad plays"
🙄
I'll bring fuel to the discussion. Why does Otz (a content creator killer main with several thousand hours into the game) ask for NOED to work on a token system on top of being a hex? Because it allows killers that does bad in chase to snowball (no other reason). To be honest, i think it would be an overnef. I'd prefer if it was not a hex and put on a timer... or permanent after getting the four survivors hooked before the fifth gen pops (what would be a buff in average settings).
Because nobody's perfect and everyone's going to have bad ideas sometimes?
Do you think he's the only one? Cause he's actually not. Truetalent thinks that NOED is unhealthy and bad designed also. It doesn't come out of nowhere.
A lot of people on the forums also think that, an argument from authority or an appeal to the majority don't really mean much. Otzdarva is a great content creator, probably my favourite, but he has blind spots and it's kind of silly to expect anyone to be right 100% of the time.
I have actual reasons for thinking what I do about NOED, hearing that some other guy thinks otherwise isn't inherently enough to change my mind.
Having the perk work on a token system is honestly the worst idea I could think of, that just weakens an already inconsistent perk- especially if it's still a hex and has all its current counterplay on top of that. At best, it fixes nothing, and at worst it stops NOED from even doing the thing it's supposed to.
Nothing, just that it counters lazy survivors.
It is not an argument of authority. It is nothing more than getting another argument coming from an expert on the topic. It doesn't necessarily say that they are right... only that it doesn't come out of nowhere "for no reason". I also said that Otz's change would overnerf the perk.
Edit: Truetalent thinks the perk is unhealthy. Ohtofu thinks it also. (All killer mains btw). How much do you need?
Literally a textbook definition, that you then tripled down on. Should we then start naming streamers who don't think noed should be changed? Or should we go back to the actual merits of the argument?
Countering it requires a lot of effort and killers can secure at least 1 kill thanks to NOED. Thats why its unfair.
You find snuffing a single lit totem to be "a lot of effort"?
Legitimate question: What makes countering it require a lot of effort? It seems like other hexes can be found and cleansed really quickly, what makes NOED different?