Is removing Bubba's masks can really prevent the hateful behaviors?
Firstly, I don't support any hateful or unsportable behaviors ingame. For me, game is the place for getting fun after works.
But I really concern about some points after reading the recent dev notes:
- Do you really think the BMs can not find other ways to spread the their hatefulness?
- If I play some killer likes Spirit / Oni / Trickster, should I hook or sacrifice Jack / Feng / Yun-Jin or any Asian related survivors?
- If I play as Feng / Jack / Claudette / Elodie / Tapp / Adam / Yun-Jin, may I report someone who camped me as racist behavior? Will they get banned?
- Will I get banned if I miss to mention any PoC or Asian killers or survivors on above points
- 6000 iri shards compensation, wow, so generous. We literally lost 4 pieces of cosmetic in-game, one piece might cost 400 auric cells. So with 6000 shards, may we buy any single piece of Bubba's cosmetic as a COMPENSATION? And hold on, can we use iri shard to purchase license content?
Tbh, I think the report system is the first thing which should be improved than any other.
Tagged:
BHVR
Comments
Doesn't it make it pretty obvious that you can get a group of people together and start harassing other people and get noticed.
What's to stopping a group of people choosing Bubba and only killing Claudette's and Adam's while letting all the other characters go. You're not stopping a behavior by doing this, you're making it rewarding.
Hearing about this Bubba thing I'm sorta confused on what's happening.
First of all, racism has no place in Dbd or the Dbd community. I also don't even own any of the LF masks so I don't really care whether they remove them or not. However, the way they announced this left a really bad taste in my mouth. Out of all the ways BHVR could have tried to curb racial harassment in the game they chose the laziest and less meaningful one. So yeah, deveoper update, you removed the mask, and then what? Are we good now?
Why not announcing instead that you're fixing your outdated and convoluted reporting system to make it as easy as possible to flag racist behavior? How about tracking players from the server end so the burden of proof isn't on the affected player? What steps are you taking to ban racist players who engage in hateful behavior? In other words, other than removing a mask that was problematic from a PR standing point, what's your commitment to fight against racism, BHVR? Cause just removing a mask ain't it for sure.
What happened? Oh btw Cenobites VO came back! Aren’t you excited??
As mentioned in another thread, this is referred to as the "slippery slope fallacy."
There's actually a difference between a slippery slope argument and a slippery slope fallacy. A slippery slope argument is an argument in which one action could logically lead to a new unforeseen consequence.
A slippery slope fallacy is where one action could lead to something extreme or ludicrous. So basically, a slippery slope fallacy example would be, if you get rid of smart face, what is stopping everyone from only killing Claudettes, Adams and Elodies.
The definition of the slippery slope fallacy and argument are the same. The slippery slope argument is a type of logical fallacy:
https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Slippery-Slope.html#:~:text=In%20a%20slippery%20slope%20argument,course%20of%20events%20will%20happen.
"If it doesn't end racism once and for all, then there's no point in doing anything at all." Absolutely brilliant take.
A slippery slope argument is not always a fallacy. A slippery slope fallacy is an argument that says adopting one policy or taking one action will lead to a series of other policies or actions also being taken, without showing a causal connection between the advocated policy and the consequent policies
Quoted from Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate (csun.edu)
What?
That's actually incorrect, but even if it was correct, in your case, you showed no connection, so in your case it is very much a fallacy. :P
There a better ways to handle racism instead of removing features in the game.
I supplied it when I said...
Doesn't it make it pretty obvious that you can get a group of people together and start harassing other people and get noticed.
When I made this statement, I supplied a plausible reason why the consequence of banning "Smart Face" could lead to...
What's to stopping a group of people choosing Bubba and only killing Claudette's and Adam's while letting all the other characters go. You're not stopping a behavior by doing this, you're making it rewarding.
Hence, a slippery slope argument instead of a slippery slope fallacy.
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There are a variety of ways to turn a slippery slope fallacy into a valid (or at least plausible) argument. All you need to do is provide some reason why the adoption of one policy will lead to the adoption of another.
Again quoted from Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate (csun.edu)
"If they ban Smart Face, then people will start harassing using different cosmetics, then others will get removed, then they'll harass even more with other cosmetics" is a slippery slope fallacy.
Idk why it's a surprise to some people that racist people using smartface to harass poc are just going to keep harassing poc.
They'll just find the next thing to use and then people will complain about that. At what point do we just remove all cosmetics to prevent any issue of people harassing others with them?
You quoted a blog on conducting data analysis to define "causality", the blog doesn't have anything to do with debate and logical fallacies.
That's like saying "Evolutionary Theory" is just a theory (using "theory" as one definition when it means another in this context).
I kinda feel the same man. Removing the masks really doesn't do anything.
Like, okay...now they can't use it...what else changes?
It's just a way to get the 12 people affected by it to stop crying. It's a non-issue, really, but they have to find some way to make some people happy that doesn't involve actually fixing the game. Besides, all this did was make it so now anyone with the rainbow flag charm becomes a target, so. . . Well done, I suppose?
I just have to laugh to myself every time I read this... it reminds me of a time when someone learns a new word -- they have no clue how to use it, what context it applies to, or even cared to learn all they could about it. They just really liked saying that word.
If you wish to continue our conversation, post it in the other thread. Otherwise, I have nothing to discuss with you. ;)
Tired of me already I see. You poor thing... bless your soul
It can't change people mind but it's a statement to remove a bonus cosmetic which is used for passive or offensive racism. This is the only cosmetic with a black skinned "trophy".
It's sad that racism even in games exists. So I can fully understand the decision. Now they have to use the chat for their hate messages and this is easier reportable.
The definition for "casual connection" is much more rigorous if you conducting data analysis for a research paper compared to using it in debate and I'm pretty sure you know this. Also, I will point out that you selected a blog of a professor who is specifically talking about research papers, for a college level class. This is pretty disingenuous, don't you think. You didn't choose a definition from a dictionary or a source specifically speaking about fallacies and debate.
Here a definition from a dictionary
If there is a causal connection between two things, one thing is responsible for causing the other.
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But again, I'll point you to this college website I pointed out before that is specifically talking about a causal connection in context to slippery slope arguments.
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There are a variety of ways to turn a slippery slope fallacy into a valid (or at least plausible) argument. All you need to do is provide some reason why the adoption of one policy will lead to the adoption of another.
Again quoted from Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate (csun.edu)
Like the fact that racism doesnt stop at the drop of a mask -- more specifically removing in game content. Especially when Mandy has already said, in her own words, that racial behavior is impossible to stop. So they even recognize that removing the masks will likely do nothing against racism.
You provided no reason why A will result in B. You simply claim that the mask getting removed means players will harass using some other cosmetic to get it removed. Hence, fallacy.
A more accurate analogy would be all of the neighbor's baskets being confiscated and the selling of baskets banned all because a few neighbors misbehaved. This is not reasonable behavior. It's collective punishment for individual actions all in the name of feelings.
I already explained this.
All I can say now is that you are wrong and I am right. Time to move on.
Your explanation is wrong on multiple levels, but sure. I'm cool with moving on.
People will stop using it when it stops becoming true.
People will do that because they'll know that it works.
You could have one thing you want nerfed, say it's offensive and it'll get changed (probably to favour bad survivors)
No, it will encourage trolls even more, trolls get stronger the more they see you angry at them.
That's how mob mentality works.
It's a prediction. It may not happen. Twitter, for instance, could become a wholesome place. Realistically speaking, we know that won't happen.
Trolls act to get a rise out of someone or to just ruin others fun. Hopefully this isn't in dispute. BHVR has now shown that a small amount of the player base can get items banned if people make enough of a stink about it (not much). It's not going to be difficult for trolls to make some vague offensive connection from cosmetics, and for BHVR to take this sort of action. It's not a stretch to go from a cosmetic that's part of a package deal from paid content to just outright paid content. I promise you, old lady Bubba is next.
If you are into fallacies, the opposite is also ironically true. Claiming something similar will not happen "just cuz, bruh" is inherently fallacious as well. Generally speaking, their commitment to the prevention of harassment implies the removal of other tools being abused more than it implies ignoring their tools of abuse, does it not?
Blight is offensive to the drug addict community.
NERF HIM AT ONCE
Yours sincerely
Bad Survivors
You are still wrong on the slippery slope argument.
However, wouldn't Pretty Lady Leatherface be the obvious choice for your example.
To be honest, you actually kind of have a point.
It was removed because it was a tool used for racism. Not because it resembled blackface.
Mandy said that. Also said that racist behavior is impossible to stop. But let's remove in game content anyway, you know?
Claudette's mask was the one I saw the most. I can attribute that to it being the most visually different, though. I used to use it because it was the one mask of the 4 that looked different from afar, and you could tell the Bubba had that unique cosmetic. The others are hard to tell unless you're very close to him.
I've seen many Bubbas who wear Claudette face but have never been targetted by any of them in any noticable way, and I play Tapp 95% of my matches.
That skin could be seen as offensive to LGBT.
You lack imagination. I already have one in my head that could qualify (lady Bubba) I don't think it'd be difficult to think of others. This entire discussion isn't about what's reasonable. It's not reasonable to associate Letherface's Claudette mask when it does not share the context of blackface. It's all about what some people feel.
That is probably the worst example ever. If people show you middle finger to offend you, will you just cut off everyone's middle finger to solve the issue? Laughable.
Tool is never a problem, tool is literary just a tool for someone to use.
That is what you encourage when you rip parts of the game out because someone somewhere linked it to racism.
If it doesn't offend him personally, it is not offensive.
It's also a pay for outfit so legally it can't be removed without threat of lawsuit which is a larger threat than any sort of public outcry.
Because it is implied that Bubba kills Claudette and wears her face...?
Hope I can say that on the forums. Dont want to upset anyone.
Blackface is a very, very different thing
First, this changes nothing. You'll see just as many racists as before, and they will probably be much worse in retaliation. Second, why remove all of them? Its a slap in the face to those who genuinely wanted them. I put many hours grinding for those specific masks. Third, you can't even use the iri shards they game us for leatherfaces new cosmetics as they are locked behind a pay wall.
we've had this exact same discussion literally 300 times over the past day just go comment on one of the threads that isn't locked because people couldn't stop insulting each other instead of making another one, i beg.
How many of these damn threads do we need?
They're gone. The racists ruined it for everyone else. People need to get mad at the small-minded racist pricks of the world, not at BHVR.
Exactly. Like it would have been fine if in the same developer update they had also committed to putting in place better measures to combat racism in game but no, they just remove the mask and then bury their heads in the sand. It can't be that hard, but it takes more work than just typing a paragraph.