Would you think increasing the base movment speed of the lower end of the Killer roster would be op?
Except Nurse we have the classic 4,4 M/s and 4,6 M/s for all of our Killers.
We can agree on that we have some Killers that have regardless of how well you will play a much harder time catching survivors or getting the upper hand in chases. For example Trapper, Clown, Legion and even Pig.
I am well aware that there are scenarios where any of these Killers can still get 4ks or do well, but these are compared to the upper half of the Killers very rare and would also only happen if the Survivors mess around or just simply do alot of mistakes.
I wonder what would happen if we would buff these Killers base movement speed to 4,8 M/s?
This would maybe help these Killers out and wouldnt make them so addon depended. Maybe to compensate that change these Killers should gain Blood lust at a slower rate. This simple but yet effective change may be a good solution to temporarly make these Killers feel better in higher ranks until the devs will find the time to rework or buff them further. (I know that Trapper got recently some changes but I doubt that will make him be a much better Killer than he is)
Thoughts?
Comments
A quick thing about movement speeds.
Survivors run at 4 m/s
Standert killers at 4.6 m/s
Which means that you close the distance between you and the survivor at 0.6 m/s
Changing it to 4.8 m/s means you close the distance between you and the survivor at 0.8 m/s
From 0.6 to 0.8 is a 33% increase. That is huge. Not going to comment on the balance of things, just want to show this isn't a small thing you are suggesting here
Movement speed is very risky stat to change as it can cause major balance issues. If we make clown a 120% move speed killer he would be insanely stronger since he can already speed himself up and slow survivors down
5% MS is something very risky to mess with. Anyone who plays both 110 e 115 killers know it's a world of difference. I think there are other ways to buff these lower end killers, although something like 117,5% for them would be okayish.
Yes but these mentioned Killers have basicly nothing to close the gap in chases, these are considered M1 Killers that have no power basicly in terms of a 1v1 chase.
that may be true but would it be really that strong? I mean Clown has just 4 bottles which can give you a free hit at best. I would consider a Blight much stronger in every single aspect even if Clown would have that extra speed.
Yes I know and I have some very good concepts how to buff all these Killers but as we know from BHVR they need a LOOOOOONG time until they will touch one of these and do something. Therefore increasing the movement speed by changing simply the number would be a temporal "support" for them until they will come up to these Killers and finally give them a proper buff or update.
Speaking about movement speeds though:
Since a killer closes in at 0.6 m/s, it takes an m1 killer 25 seconds to close a 15m gap if a survivor just holds W in a straight line.
That is 37.5 for 4.4m/s killers (so for instance slinger, from 32m to max harpoon range (14m gap to close) it takes him 35 seconds of holding W).
Obviously killers have some powers that can alleviate that, and in most maps you can cut off survivors a little bit. But consider that 25 seconds is half a generator with 2 people, and this is not even counting loops, it's just holding W.
This is not to say I think killers should be faster though. That would probably break most loops in the game and ultimately it wouldn't help too much with map pressure, i don't think. It's just a curious thing to consider about movement speeds.
Yes and if we change it to 4.8 that 15m gap is closed in 18.75 seconds. that's like 25% faster. It is really interresting how the smallest changes in movement speed in this game have such a high impact
Yeah, and i'm not saying they shouldn't be faster or if it would or wouldn't be too strong. I agree these kind of killers should get some help.
Mostly just making clear to whoever reads it that this small increase in movement speed would be a really big deal
We dont need shorter the chase. We need to give survivors objective. As passive power like Pinhead.
A Killer from 115 to 119 with Noed is already noticable. Which mean already huge.
Gotta admit though, holding W for 18.7 seconds instead of 25 sounds sweeeeeeet XD Since to be fair, holding W shouldn't be nearly as effective as it is.
But yea, movement speed is one of those things. It could really break the game in a very bad way if not done properly. It's better to address issues with the game in a different way, imo.
Imo Survivor movement speed is too fast when injured.
And that is a simpler quotient to resolve, as all Survivors have the same speed, and speed reduction would only affect the injured.
This has been a longstanding issue regarding looping, and why artificially Killers get a speed boost in increments from the Bloodlust mechanic.
This was always, and still is, stupid.
Rational is that an injured Survivor moves slower, thus removing the need for Bloodlust mechanic.
This would bilaterally buff Killers in pursuing an injured Survivor, but also buff uninjured Survivors in looping a Killer, as Bloodlust would no longer activate.
Any faster movement speed would be far too oppressive in a 1v1, yet it still wouldn't solve the real issue with the lower end killers; map pressure.
Ideally you want killers to be able to gain distance between encounters with survivors, but not be able to catch up with survivors so quickly in a chase (unless it's part of their power that comes with a cost).
Potentially, something that increases your movement speed when there are no survivors within 32 meters of you, could make sense. However it's unlikely to be a basekit feature and more likely to be a perk, if anything. Plus anything that turns off when you come within 32 meters of a survivor will ultimately end up fulfilling the same role as Whispers as well.
Personally I'd just like more killers with teleport or teleport-like powers.
Perhaps a perk that increases your movement speed by 5% for 15 seconds after kicking a gen could work too. As this comes with a cost (the kick) while either being used to make up the distance lost in a chase caused by the kick itself, or to make headway towards the next gen where you'll find survivors. As with all gen-kick perks, you'll ideally want to combo it, probably with Pop.
Failing that, there's always Play With Your Food.
True I would also like to increase the time a game lasts but it seems the devs think otherwise since the devs never prodived us with anything to stall the game in terms of base mechanics not perks.
This is a interesting idea but the problem would be that you would buff therefore the already strong killers even further. Killers like Nurse or Blight have an very easy time to injure survivors, that would also break the game in a other way.
Agree. The new game VHS has a interesting idea as a base mechanic which would be nice to see in a simiular way in dbd. In VHS you gain a rage mode after injuring 3 different survivors which gives you a buff, I think it was a 1 hit there but we could make this different in dbd. Rewarding killers for just injuring would change the gameplay in a very healthy and good way, nice side effects would be that tunneling and camping would be less effective.
I think it would make certain killers quite broken. Plus what killers would the community agree on being too weak and too strong.
I think they would be better adding a mode of transport or something to be able to move to the other side of the map for the weaker killers.
I think they should experiment with 4.5m/s
I wrote in the post the Killers that I meant.
would be also a idea!
I think certain large maps could have access points on the edge, where the killer can enter on one side and emerge on the other side. Could be balanced in a way that it still takes time to travel, like a Demo's portal but even slower, but that's still quicker than walking that distance. Have it only open x seconds into a game, probably 120 or more, so that the killer can't just TP to the opposite side of the map with a lucky spawn at the start of the game.
It's probably not something that could be easily balanced for all maps, so it would probably have to be a new gimmick for a new large map.
Nurse is a "slow" Killer anyways, so the least affected, and has to land the teleport meticulously.
Blight is a "fast" Killer, whoms entire mechanic is based on rushes to linearly impact near a target, to hit them.
Im not concerned with either compared to the core issue here, which is that Injured Survivors move at the same rate as Uninjured, which means looping is irreverant to either condition.
As a continuity of that irrationality, jumping though a window/over a ledge or a pallet, are also unaffected by injured status.
The problem thus is that when Killer injures a Survivor gets no benefit regarding actually closing with the target, as the Injured Survivor moves at the same rate as an Uninjured one, and also loops/leaps at the same rate.
Nurse main here. I don't care about yours or anyones movespeed except to say that its a terrible way to balance. The issue with the game balance isn't perks, its not gen speed or ruin or pop or any survivor perk. The issue is 100% map design. The other issues just exacerbate the main problem. Ruin doesn't work properly on maps like red forest yet it works amazingly on suffocation pit with a decent totem spawn
This is a casual game with massive RNG elements, until you tone down the RNG you cannot fix the issues.
I'd rather they implement a secondary objective for weaker killers, something like the chain hunt that Pinhead has.
What is your success rate with Nurse?
If you main Nurse, map design or size doesnt much matter, as you can pass through it all to wherever you want, across huge distances, with just a few seconds delay.
What do you mean by secondary objective?
Atm:
-Killers primary objective is to kill Survivors. Secondary is to slow their gen progression.
-Survivors primary objective is to complete gens. Secondary is to avoid being killed.
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I main Doc for the reason that Madness directly impairs Survivors checks on gens and healing, and requires self-heal on 3 Madness, so it systemically slows them down.
But this plateus, as experienced Survivors hit the checks, regardless.
Pinhead's Box is interesting in this regard, but like Plagues mechanic, its also in the Survivors control, which as is the case in all of DBD becomes problematic when the Survivors coordinate in voice comms.
Ive said this long ago, and still do, that the 1v4 quotient regarding SWF can only be resolved by Killer based mechanics that are either not in Survivor control, or atleast partially in Killer control.
The higher the rank/matchmaking, and vs voice comms, the more prevalent that becomes.
Survivors as characters are interchangeable, but Killers are not.
This was perhaps a rendered design flaw in DBD. I play many Killers all which are different, but when I play Survivor, its only my specced Claudette.
This because all the Survivors can slot the perks of all the others, but Killers are hardwired in abilities to only that, no matter the perks selected.
On nurse and blight having the same movement speed is essential, yes you dont loop these killers but you have to keep reposition yourself at a good angle or behind walls or obstacles to not get hit by these abilites. Also the main counterplay against nurse is actually to build distance so movementspeed would buff her in that sense.
I would rather see some kind of overall mechanic that benefits killers with no mobility to help them be more on par with killers with more mobility; it would be available for all killers but movement killers would not need it so they would not often use it. Something like a 10%-15% movement buff after a hook for so many seconds or until they enter chase.
The only killer that would likely remain balanced with a 120% base speed would be legion, since his power is so bad against coordinated groups. Maybe pig as well, but I would rather see other buffs to her base kit instead.
You misread/misunderstood what I said.
I didnt propose movement speed change of Killers, ONLY of Injured Survivors, and also regarding leaps/pallets in proportion.
The problem is that an Injured Survivor performs all actions at the same rate as an Uninjured Survivor.
That is the elephant in the room, and central to these issues.
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TLDR: An Injured Survivor can move, loop and act exactly the same as an Uninjured one, and that is a problem.
Imo, nevermind the move speed, but I would recommend that Injured Survivors can only leap/pallet at a reduced rate.
Its one thing to chase an uninjured looper, but it should not be perpetual vs an injured one that the Killer has already invested time/effort to hit and injure.
And as I said, the Bloodlust mechanic can be removed, if Injured Survivors instead have to slow leap/pallet.
Yes. It would be a horrible decision that would be the equivalent of using duct tape to fix the survivor bias at the highest level but would remove any chance for survivors at the lowest.
You are confusing issues.
There is a majority of Killer characters that are nigh obsolete, whereas it doesnt matter what Survivor you play, just the perks you slot.
I play many Killers, many of which Ive bought, cos each is different in abilities, but for Survivor games I have bought none, and only need one.
Some Survivor perks that I want I just flat out bought with Shards from the Shrine Shop.
I played some Survivor characters to get their perks, then just pool those into the only Survivor character I play, and never touch them again.
Do you see the difference?
Survivor chars are interchangeble.
Killer chars, are not.
The commitment to a Killer char, and how they operate, is profoundly different. I can do the same with any Survivor, but I cant do the same with any Killer.
This is also how I know that, for whatever reason, you have not invested into or experienced what its like on Killer side.
Keep trying to tell people. The solution is to give Survivors “Stamina” like Diablo II 🤦🏽♂️… Players shouldn’t be able to run indefinitely. Hold W!! Survivor is completely brain dead 🧠 ☠️, and it’s ruining DBD!!! It doesn’t matter how fast a killer is if there’s pallets and jungle gyms everywhere to dance the killer in. Blight, Spirit, and Nurse are mobile enough to negate all the survivors options which is why they work… In any horror setting the survivors will get tired from doing all of that… Rework “Exhaustion” into this… Replace Bloodlust with this…!
Basically whenever a survivor runs, and/or perform any rushed action their stamina bar is consumed. Once it’s fully depleted the survivor suffers from “Exhaustion”, which is now a passive speed penalty. They can no longer fast vault, slide across pallets quickly, or use their exhaustion perks until their stamina replenishes fully. Exhaustion perks activate upon use for as long as you have any stamina left; However it always consumes the entire stamina bar and applies Exhaustion. Meaning if survivors used their Balanced Landing with a full bar of stamina they will get their huge head start, but they’re now sluggish at the insane loops they always try to lure you towards. This pressures them to use the pallets there to get away. Not to dance around insane tiles all day. Sitting still, and crouching replenishes the bar. So if you’re too tired to be chased go do objectives until your stamina is back. Upon getting hit you get a burst of adrenaline. Some of the Stamina returns, and exhaustion will go away. This is to be fair so survivors can attempt to escape the killer if they’re persistent on downing them. This also works with Endurance to replenish stamina by taking extra hits. Even if this means you can use Smash Hit, or use Balance Landing twice. The consequence of that is you’ll receive speed penalties to vault speeds the moment you’re exhausted again. Rework Adrenaline so that it is the only “speed burst” perk that’ll refill your entire stamina bar upon activation. As opposed to consuming the entire stamina bar like the other “speed burst” perks.
But no. Getting survivors to actually get good at an objective, and THINK about what they’re doing is too much. Ruin rework is the proof. When that got reworked the game died imo. And I started when Demo had just came out. 😪
Yes thats what I meant, it is important against these killers that the survivor keeps the same movementspeed xD
How did you manage to misread a second time, when I was even more specific?
Injured Survivor movement and action rate as the same to Uninjured Survivor is the problem.
Bloodlust is a false bandaid.
You completely misunderstood my point. All killers (even low tier ones) are viable for beginners because survivors at those ranks are clueless. Buffing movement speed would severely negatively impact survivors at those ranks and many would simply stop playing.
At higher ranks however survivors dominate and will run rings around many killers without breaking a sweat. Making those killers faster wouldn't change that very much because those survivors are already capable of outplayed most killers. Ghostface moving faster would still have all of his current problems. Same goes for clown Legion Trickster Trapper and so on.
Also please tell me more about how I haven't played killer? Must have magic magicked all the killer achievements in the game huh?
Now, a third time, you misread, misunderstood and misrepresented.
I said reduce the movement and action speed of Injured Survivors.
Nowhere have I said anything about increasing anyones (Killer or Survivor) movement speed.
I specifically also said that Bloodlust, which is a mechanic that artificially increases Killer speed, could thus be finally removed, if/when Injured Survivors as already having been hit and not healed, have reduced movement/action speed.
Survivors need a reason to do stuff other than slam gens.
######### do you think that means to me?
Are you confusing me with some other poster?
I specifically explained why to reduce the movement/action speed of INJURED Survivors.
Nowhere did I say anything about increasing anyones speed.
Slowing down injured survivors would just guarantee that an injured survivor will go down. No more hit and runs, no more using injures as slow down, just tunnel one survivor at a time, and they all effectively have one health state, because as soon as you get hit once, you're guaranteed to get hooked.
Now a very strict exhaustion system I could maybe see working, but it would have to have some very stringent factors. Something like:
When sprinting you fill up a hidden meter at 1c/s, and when you stop it decreases at 6c/s. When it hits 60 you become Exhausted.
Exhaustion remains exactly as it is now (no slowdown) but this would mean that any Exhaustion perks could be spent before you use them if you just hold W for 60 seconds straight with no breaks.
Then, if you're already Exhausted, this hidden meter fills again while sprinting. When it hits 60 again, you become 'Fatigued', which prevents you from fast vaulting, or any other rushed actions. Plus if you try to fast vault, you suffer from Hindered (slowing you down) for 5 seconds.
This would essentially put a soft 2 minute cap on chases, except for when you can dupe the killer and take a breather, extending your hidden meter.
Loop the killer well and you can stave off the exhaustion, but if you're just barely hanging on or just holding W, you're not going to get a chance to extend your 2 minutes.
Even when you hit your 2 minutes, you may still be able to carry on, just avoid fast vaults.
But using an Exhaustion perk would basically sacrifice your first 60s, increasing the cost of such perks. Risk reward, using exhaustion perks means you have to loop or dupe better.
Increasing killer speed is literally all this thread is about? Nobody at all is talking about changing Survivors speed apart from apparently you. And that would also be a terrible idea for the same reason as op's idea. It will mainly affect those at low rank where Killers dominate every game.
Yes, its me here that said Injured Survivor movement and/or action rate is the missing link.
Maybe if you actually played Killer, you would understand that, and also inversely that it could facilitate the removal of Bloodlust speed in the interest of Survivors.
As to rank, your position is irrational.
The problem is that Injured Survivors are not movement and/or action impaired.
Low rank Killers and Survivors should be matched together, and there its irrevelant what the speed of Injured Survivors is changed to as it would be the same in all rank brackets.
Remove Bloodlust entirely. Give Survivors a Stamina Bar. Rework chases altogether.
Killer: Chases aren’t about being quick anymore, but exhausting the survivors so that they’re easier to down..!
Survivor: Must manage their stamina. If you’re just running around clicking your little flashlight, and backwards running without a care in the friggn world you’ll be exhausted when a killer sees you. Make survivors act like one. Avoiding killers while exhausted. Knowing when to take a hit to get the adrenaline/stamina to extend chases at the expense of vault penalties. Etc
After playing both sides long enough I see that the critical problem is how Survivor functions, and people will not admit it. That’s why no killer is effective unless they’re as mobile/nimble as survivor! Killers are forced into ultimatums because survivors have a dozen options with little consequence. The only thing that cripples a Survivor in DBD is No Mither, and after Oni came it disappeared. Survivors need ultimatums as well. 😑
Ah yes. Telling me again that I don't play killer even though that's practically all I play. 😂 I HAVE EVERY KILLER MAXED OUT AND EVERY SINGLE KILLER ACHIEVEMENT.
I'm not sure how you're still not understanding this. So I'll try to explain it very slowly.
New players playing killer almost always get a 4k because new Survivors hide instead of doing gens.
New Survivors almost never escape because they don't know how to loop or lose the killer in chase. Nor do they understand the importance of pressure so they often leave gens and hide in corners.
New killers don't have this problem because their objective is to kill. Doesn't take much knowledge to follow someone until you catch them and as survivors run into the open instead of towards pallets they go down fast.
Bloodlust doesn't matter because the survivors don't know how to loop so they throw every pallet instantly and run in the open and baby killers kick every pallet asap so it never kicks in. Removing Bloodlust will have no affect in these ranks because chases either don't last 15 seconds or killers are constantly resetting it. On top of that NONE of these players even know what bloodlust is so they never force it.
If you nerf Survivors speed when they're injured that 4k almost every game becomes every single game. Why? Because the survivors are still just as bad but now they're bad and weaker.
If new players cannot win they won't have fun. If they don't have fun they stop playing. They stop playing and when older players inevitably get bored and leave the game dies.
You cannot change something so fundamentally important to the game and have it work out the same at low ranks and high ranks because low rank killers dominate and high rank Survivors dominate. Making Survivors weaker affects ALL survivors not just the strong ones. Removing bloodlust only affects the mid/high killers who know how it works and actually use it to their advantage. And those are the killers who ACTUALLY DO need help.
i don't think it would be op but I don't think that's what they should do.
I feel like it wouldn't be too OP or too bad but this is what most people would call a bandaid fix which this community hates a lot. It could work, but i'd much rather have them actually re balance killers.
I'm pretty sure theres other stuff they should try before touching Movement Speed. I think its a variable with a strong impact on the game. As with any of these kinda objections, i obviously dont have any better "easy" alternative idea.
We could give killers subskills or abilities like in Identity V, there a killer has is Main ability, and can choose between several lesser powers like a sentry ward, a controllable drone ( kinda like victor, but just for scouting), a blink instanty 5m forward or a " freddy gen teleport). Thse are obviously balanceable by cooldown etc. Problematic with thisnapproach would be access to those skills by " good" killers. Would also need a rework of the Killer UI and the loadout UI. These kinda abilitties could maybe be implemented as killer version of items.
Before changing MS to change the "killer base", the abilitties should be tweaked first. Buff killer base abilitties, change addons. ( if the basekit is good enough, we dont need addons to change charge speed etc and can just keep addons that add new stuff.) thus addons could maybe become something like one- use mini perks instead of variable-vhanges to the ability.
Or you know make reasonably sized maps instead of continiously releasing giant labryinths with narrow hallways brekable walls. Long fences and walls that aggresively eats the killers time to find and engage in chases. 90% of dbd imbalances is its absolutley horrendous map design.
It doesnt matter what new players experience as either survivor or killer, as they dont know what they are doing, and will learn to get better.
Thus in regards to balance issues and changes, "new players" are neither here not there as anykind of cohort from which to draw conclusions or base decisions upon.
You arent making sense. Just seems you are ranting for the sake of it.
Your "think of the children!"-style argument doesnt work on this.
I agree wtih you and this makes alot of sense. However you are missing out with something here.
A game should always be balanced around higher ranks, there is no reason to hold yourself back only because of casual players or newer players. The best example was World of Warcraft, all the years back then they only changed and adjusted on higher skill play but slowly at the last 2 expansions at Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands they started changing and balanced for the casual player base, which yes in terms of numbers makes sense because the higher playerbase in every game is always casual. It came out after the 3th year that the game is now dying because all the steady high rank players who always kept playing started leaving the game and casual players always have a tendency to just leave and drop a game here and there for no particular reason, they just jump around from game to game.
Thats why world of warcraft is now dying and the only community that is somewhat alive is classic wow, and now apply this exactly to dbd. If you keep changing stuff only for casual players, the higher playerbase will eventuelly lose interest and just leave the game and without a continiues playerbase such as the high rank players the casual playerbase only will leave dbd anyway at some point and therefore dbd will die out just like wow or many other games that made the mistake to change around casual playerbase.
Well thats what it is supposed to be, a bandaid fix until they finally touch the killers really to change them with a intention to make them stronger. Legion, Clown, Trapper and Pig are arguable the weakest killers of the roster for good reasons, until the devs will start reworking them or give them proper buffs you can just increase the movementspeed until they are finally getting fixed.