Why do we still try to balance around 2kills 2 escapes?
By no means am I saying it should be 4escapes or 4kills as both sides should have a chance to win and do well regardless, this slightly changes depending on killer but they should still do somewhat well.
But I always see:
We're balancing around 2k 2E
This killers over performing with 3K
But even the devs know kills and escapes is not a balancing point, they tried it with mmr before and it was horrific. So... why do we still do that?
Shouldn't it be based more on hooks, maps, tiles spawns etc. That factor more?
In short: why balance around 2k 2E, when the end of the match shows nothing that happened with the trial or how people played or what they had to work with.
Comments
Btw I'd love someone to actually explain it or maybe a dev. I'm honestly confused to why they contradict so much.
Personally I'd take 8hooks 0kills every game over 2-7hooks and 2kills
Oh god yes, absolutely agree.
The game shouldn't be balanced around some more or less arbitrary numbers but fun.
More fun = better
Balance can increase fun but it's not the only relevant factor.
So you’d prefer 8 hooks and 0 kills over 7 hooks and 2 kills? Interesting.
Back to the OP, the balance should be 3 kills (preferably at least 9 hooks) and 1 escape TBH. Killer is supposed to be the power role and survivors should be scared of the killer. This may be an unpopular opinion, but escaping so be a thrilling experience because you outlasted a horrifying situation, not basically a guarantee if you have a good team. Instead we have t-baggers at the exit gates clicking flashlights. Playing survivor doesn’t feel like I’m playing a “survivor”, it feels like I’m playing Pallet Loop Simulator.
Hook count is relative in this game. First death can be between 3-9 hook. Two death can be between 6-10 hook. Three can be between 9-11 hook. And those numbers arent count camping.
Its somehow 'manageable' for Killer to have 12 hooks if a survivor dies at Killer's 3rd hook (tunneling). Which sound 'good' but its not fun for that survivor. I would say the balance should be the first survivor dies at Killer's 6th hook at least, with kill rate of 60-65%, to keep the fun for both sides.
But this game has no power role? What makes you think otherwise? You are not supposed to be curbstomping every survivor you see in every match. Jesus I see these forums crying about survivor entitlement every other post, are you seeing your posts guys?
So what should this game be balanced around?
Do you think the game should be balanced around 4 survivors escaping, or the killer getting 4 sacrifices each round?
You simply can’t balance around such a glorified concept. It’s just not how the flow of a trial works. It’s almost never a 2k. Practically any other outcome than that.
The devs would know this if they played their own game.
They should start balancing around DCs 😏
It’s called an opinion. In an asymmetrical game, the SOLE PLAYER (Killer) should have much more strength in order to counter the coordinated efforts of the other players (4 Survivors).
Right now, a decent team of survivors have just as much power as the killer. It feels wrong.
Remember, this is my opinion. MY preference, not yours.
I think it should be much harder to escape than it currently is. When my team is escaping with 1-3 hooks between us regularly, there’s a problem. To answer your question though, the game should definitely be balanced more towards a 4K than a 4 escape.
Now, it shouldn’t be ridiculously oppressive for survivors, but there’s way too many second chances in the current state.
Well, ok then, the way you worded it made it sound like a demand with the whole "supposed to be" thing.
So in other words you believe the game should be balanced around killers getting 4 sacrifices in most of their games?
So how would you balanced it in a way to let killers consistently get 4 sacrifices?
I think balance should be around chase time. survivors with statistically longer chases should be matched with killers who have statistically shorter chases, with the ideal chase time being about 30 seconds. that would have 12 chases making up a 10 minute match. the only really symmetrical part of this game is killer time efficiency vs survivor ability to waste killer time, so why would you balance around any other metric?
Yeah, that 1 extra hook likely means an extra chase, maybe more hits, mindgames, outplays, nice hits/baits all of which is fun and entertaining.
Dont get me wrong getting kills is cool but kills isnt a fun determination, if had games where I have got a 4k, but it wasnt fun especially how I was forced to play to get it (dont usually 4k as I always give hatch but some challenges/adepts require it)
Indeed but I'd say hooks show more than kills especially on a more common basis. As for your % I'd say it depends on the skill level you're saying, as killer likely do better low/mid than higher ranks. A 65% at a high level sounds interesting. Usually if I'm against a really solid team I say 6hooks is a win especially as weaker killers so I'd like that little bit more to try boost to that 7/8hooks if possible. Kills are meh
That’s a tough question. It would involve having to rework all the maps, pallet spawns, look at killer powers/perks/add-ons. There is no “quick fix” to balance the game right now, IMO.
I’d start by removing all the safe pallets in the game, though. In a community where people complain about stuff not having counterplay, safe pallets are up there in the no-counterplay rankings.
That’s why I said “this may be an unpopular opinion”. 😂 I was right, it is.
The game should neve rbe balanced towards a 4k or 4 escape for that matter.
If it was balanced towards a 4k, it would simply put mean killers being far to overpowered with essentially no counterplay / hard counterplay. It would dramatically reduce any form of fun survivors would have from matches since it would always be far more killer sided, and that is not the point. Same for a 4 escape, it would mean survivors always have the upper hand.
The current balance towards 2k / 2E is the middle ground that logically seems the most fair. Although i tihnk people need to see things in more perspective than currently since for many a kill or escape means they "won" the match.
If an asymmetrical game is balanced towards a 2K/2E that typically means your power role (Killer) is severely hindered.
I think it's also important when the kills happen.
If they happen at 5 gens for example, consistently, then obviously the Killer is very overpowered. If they only happen after the gates are open because Survivors are making horrible plays then Killer is likely very underpowered.
Which is why I think it's important to focus more on fun than the number of kills / escapes.
And for the kill rates to make sense we also need a clearly defined win condition anyway, which is one of the biggest problems with the game.
Example: Killer gets 8 hooks, every Survivor was hooked twice, but no kills. Everyone barely survives. Versus: Killer finds one Survivor, basement camps with Insidious and catches someone going for a save, the other two escape. 0 Kills vs 2 Kills. I think it's fair to say that the second game, even though it has the "correct" number of kills, is less indicative of good game balance than the first one.
Those are excellent points. Just because a killer gets late-game kills due to camping or NOED, that doesn’t mean Killers need to be nerfed.
I think the game needs to be balanced around chase time. Right now some chases can last way too long due to the ungodly amount of safe pallets and RNG that can combine safe loops into one another.
Chases should be taking a minute or less. Survivors being able to loop a killer for 2-3 minutes and 3 gens means the maps have been terribly balanced in favor of survivors.
One of the Devs said recently they aim for a 60% death rate, not 50%.
Even 6 hooks would be VASTLY more accurate to balance around than 2K.
Balancing around 2k you can literally just face camp 2 people to death before the gates are open and make it look like a "balanced match". There's just so many factors that get you "kills" that don't equate with "balance" whatsoever.
I think it should be balanced around number of hooks. You can guarantee a 2k every match facecamping with Bubba and I don't think that's balanced. A 2k with 2 hooks is way different than one with 10 hooks.
Agreed, it's why the hook counter bothers me. You cant see individual hooks, so if someone gets to next state or quits you still get hook states.
Be better if fresh hooks was white and next stage/DC was red.
But as for balance I do agree hooks mean more than kills, but when you get such bad maps and RNG it can even impact that. But hooks will always be better, like i said before hooks can mean more hits, chases, mindgames, outplays etc. Which are not only more fun but show the skill more
Correction;
It's not a 2:2 balance ratio for everyone.
It's 2:2 balance goal with casual/usually mistake ridden survivors as the focus
So yeah, there's gonna be a lot if issues for everyone
It's either they make like u describe or they should rename survivor into swat.
This game needs to be balanced around 12 hook play, so killer goal would be hook survivors 12 times. 2K is nonsense. I can 2k just by face camp which is 2 hook play.
You cannot balance around hooks. Well, maybe you could, but there would be some things you need to clarify.
- If a survivor reaches the next hook stage, does it count as another hook?
- Does every hook count the same? The third hook (death) is gameplaywise more valuable as a first hook.
- Who wins if every survivor escapes, but the killer has 8 hooks?
I started separate topic to discuss possible camping solutions, u can read the idea.
Wow Killers are so fraking entitled.
Did you even think about this before you typed it. You have 4 players one 1 side and 1 player on the other side in a competitive game. Do you not think that 4 human beings probably don't want to play a competitive game where the game is literally stacked against them so hard that it's 3 loses to ever 1 win.
I mean why shouldn't they aim for 50/50 balanced matches pretty much
So it shouldn't be balanced at all then? I rarely ever complain on these forums. When I argue with people this right here is what I am arguing against. No, I will not play a game where the killer stomps every game because "it's the power fantasy role!!!"
It should be balanced so that the better players win. You shouldn’t be able to slam pallets without mindgames and allow your team to win.
you really can't balance this game around objectives. objectives only speak to one side. hooks/kills/escapes CAN'T be a balancing point. You have to balance around the elements common to both sides, and that is chase time and how long the match lasts. using those 2 factors you can adjust perks, maps, killer powers, add ons, items, gen times, MMR, etc... etc...
Ok but what about camping and tunneling. If you buff killers to a high degree yet keep camping and tunneling you make them near oppressive.
I mean, what's the point. If a Killer was able to always get 3 or 4 kills every game, why would you want to play it as Killer. There's no skill required at that point.
This is a competitive game and what competitive game do you know of where one side is stacked against another. It would be like going to a weight lifting contest, yet your bar is 20 pounds lighter than your opponents. Or going to a baseball game and your team doesn't count foul balls or strikes against them.
I can't even begin to understand the thinking here.
Personally if the game was balanced like that I would find it boring
Your logic is outstanding, my guy. Calling killers entitled when your post is literally entitlement.
Basically saying survivors should all have the game handed to them because the enjoyment of 4 players is more important than 1 (the killer).
It should be balanced. Right now it’s way too unbalanced in favor of survivors.
I agree that camping (especially with killers like Bubba) would need to be looked at.
Right now tunneling can be countered by DS/Unbreakable. I still believe that tunneling is in most cases a result of killers feeling the need to get rid of a survivor ASAP due to how fast the gens can go. Chases take too long to effectively pressure the whole team unless you’re Nurse or Blight, so killers resort to less than ideal (scummy) tactics.
They don't.
They mentioned at one poínt that they aim for sth around 8 hooks. so 2.5-3 kills. Like you have to do pretty well for a 4k but if you try hard you should be able to 2k, nearly 3k-3k your games.
And don't forget that you are NOT supposed to 4k every game like you're NOT supposed to survive every game.
You are the one saying that Killers should be handed 3 kills per every 1 escape. The is the very epitome of Entitlement.
2 kills / 2 escapes is exactly even and considered a draw.
Even experienced killer players that I watch on stream can struggle to get a hook before 2-3 gens pop. The game isn’t even balanced right now for 2K/2E.
Some “stats” that show more than 50% kill rates are very misleading. Perks like NOED can secure endgame kills when they aren’t deserved. Survivors can get too altruistic. Survivors try to wait around the hook to get saves instead of rushing gens… the list goes on.
If survivors are efficient, there is no reason they shouldn’t get at least 2 escapes every time.
Kill rates are at 65% last time I checked 2 weeks ago. So you are right, the game isn't balance for 2 kills / 2 Escapes.
It’s not 65% because killers are over performing, it’s 65% because survivors make mistakes or get too cocky.
65% is still 65%, no matter how the survivors play or killers play.
That’s a narrow view of looking at things.
If I get 4 hooks all game and end up with 4 kills because I brought NOED, you’re basically saying killers are overpowered. In reality, the survivors had the power role the whole match until an unbalanced perk gave the killer the edge.
He said it the game should be balence around 9hook or 3 kill. The reasonning is simple killer should be the power role not the other way around
U know u can face camp 2 guys with 2 hook plays (one at the beginning and second after 5gen pop) or your statistics just count kill rate and not hooks? Lost of survivors complain they are either tunneled or face camped during game. And killers complain they need to play dirty. How u can be sure game is balanced?
Welcome to killer mmr vs swf. Killers are expected to be stomped repeatedly after getting a couple of kills.
Last I checked the person who plays killer is also a human being.
What happens if the killer is a hag instahits or trapper where the survivor runs into a pre placed trap? Short chase but wouldn't call trapper OP.