We can't have some mediocre Killers?
Does every Killer need to buffed into Opression land?
Trickster and Nemesis come to mind as recent examples.
Trickster certainly wasn't OP and why can't that be ok. All he really needed was a fix to his Chase interactions while throwing knives so you wouldn't de-pip. His ranged ability shuts down a lot of looping options. He's weak indoors, or was.
Nemesis is pretty balanced in my opinion, certainly not OP and, unique being the first Killer with AI.
Do we really need to buff every Killer that can't ZOOM across the map or one hit down?
Comments
I don't think they should go out of there way to make a bad killer but I think relative power levels are fine. No matter how much you try to balance something, because it's asymmetrical and a pvp game a meta will always create itself. In the game right now every killer is perfectly viable to go into 10 games with no addons and come out on top in at least 5 of them and probably more
Correct, BHVR hasn't been purposefully creating bad characters. They typically try to tweek cases when they notice that a killer is lacking rather than throw out something thats crap. I'm not bashing BHVR's actions, im questioning the logic of this thread that BHVR SHOULD create weaker characters than they have. People are claiming that its for an extra challenge, which is why I've been pointing out the options already available in the game that is for adding a challenge such as this...
As for the argument that the game's strong killers are stronger than the game's weaker characters... This SHOULD act as an indicator on who should be tweeked next.
compared this game to overwatch and other multiplayer games, killers should be stronger, you don’t see people saying tracer is op but nurse somehow is? You don’t see people saying snipers that one shot is op but you see people complain about iri head huntress. Survivors are the support mains of overwatch. Survivors main are a joke even when y’all in a 4 man swf y’all still complain about killers lol.
Thats the thing though, this thread is asking for purposefully weak or "mediocre" killers. The only real reason I've seen for this is for a challenge since they blow everyone away and its too easy. For THOSE people, they have plenty of options to pick from for the entire killer cast where they can strap on a brown addon as opposed to buying a completely new killer who purposefully sucks because playing Trapless trapper is just too strong for their amazing skills.
No this thread is asking to simply leave some killers more or less alone just because they arent S tier. Now i think their example of trickster was a poor one because im of the opinion that their changes were a nerf.
I'm fine with mediocre killers just not week as ######### ones
Behavior doesn't spend thousands of dollars to have a Killer be 3D modeled, textured, animated, voiced, themed and promoted for no one to buy or use them. Killer's are the faces of DbD and no one's gonna use a Killer that's considered terrible. The irony in this game is that despite the fact that a "Killer" is someone that's supposed to be a badass psychopath with an overwhelming presence, which our Killers appear to be...but once you know what you're doing as a Survivor every "Killer" might as well be wearing Jester hats because they're only there for a Survivor's entertainment in this bully simulator... :|
It's actually really sad..
CAN win with him, I have won games on no blink nurse. Your point?
If that was the case, the title would be "Do ALL killers HAVE to be S tier" rather than "Can't we have mediocre killers?"
the first sentence is does every killer have to be buffed into oppression hard...
Do you think every killer has been buffed into oppression hard? You yourself just said Trickster isn't OP and did those changes to Clown make him S tier all of a sudden? This thread isnt complaining about S tier killers, but that F tier killers arn't left in F tier. Most people can agree that aiming for B tier is the general goal here, not mediocrity ( a word im purposefully using because the title is asking for it).
I never said the changes made him S tier and i didnt complain about S tier killers once. If all killers were B tier then there would be a new F tier of which was the worst of B tier. Mediocrity is a synonym for average anyway so literally the OP wants exactly what you just said.
Gimpyfish winning with Bowser in Melee does not mean Bowser in Melee is good. Otz winning with Trapper in DBD does not mean Trapper is good.
The OP is arguing against buffing any of the weaker killers. He even keeps for some reason bringing up Otzdarva playing Trapper as a reason why Trapper shouldnt be buffed, even though Otzdarva himself has been saying for years that Trapper should be buffed to allow him to carry more than 1 trap without needing to use up an addon slot for that.
i also think trapper should be able to lug a trap by default. Still dont think every killer with a bad community perception needs to be buffed to the point of being oppressive...which is what OP said. Now i dont agree with his idea of whats oppressive like i said i still think trickster is far from OP.
We're in agreeance then. I'm not asking for a list of overly oppressive killers, just killers who are lacking to be brought up. When you have killers who lack in both mobility AND chase potential, they could probably use a little love. OP has been arguing AGAINST that and claiming its for the sake of having a challenge...which is why I brought up the addon options that make a killer's base power weaker if that player wishes to challenge themselves beyond what playing with basekit provides.
Every Killer must be nerfed. Only then will Survivor mains be happy and claim everything is balanced. There's no other way.
See? I can make sweeping generalizations as well.
There was nothing said about "insisting a killer has a weak basekit". I said that it's fine that some killers are stronger than others. Therefore, not implying killers should be weak. And my first paragraph specifically pointed about a need to balance killers to make them viable.
I agree with what you say about add-ons, and that they offer the opportunity to try a more difficult build. Just please don't misinterpret what I wrote.
Im talking about what OP wrote. You agreed with OP about having weaker killers for the sake of challenge. Your exact words were "I do hear what you're saying though, and for me it feels right to have some killers not as strong as others, similar to a difficulty level. That way there is a challenge involved."
Its this reason why I'm saying, you dont need killers who are weaker for a challenge, theres already options in play for that.
That wasn't clear on your message as you addressed it to me at the start, but thank you for clarifying the message and what you were alluding to.
Why do you care? Play those killers you have fun with. If Trickster is not fun to you, then don't play it.
I edited that message to specify what Im referring to. You agreed with OP's point, which is why I directed my message at you.
I don't care how mediocre a killer is as long as they're fun to play against.
I think it is fine to have weaker killers. If you don't like them because they are weak, then don't play them. So simple.
And MMR will maybe fix this, it will not match the top survivors against you if you are not so good with a killer. So even weaker killers will be able to achieve 2 kills.
That attitude just results in a niche character that no one picks unless they're memeing and another 3 months of waiting hoping for something better next time. The game lives or dies based off if people find a character fun enough to buy and play as.
That's something the devs should worry about, not me. If they spend money on developing a killer that noone buys, that's their problem.
There are 24 killers, so a lot to choose from. It doesn't matter to me if some are not so powerful. Maybe I will play them less often.
The devs are the ones making these characters, so of course what THEY worry about and what affects their sales is whats going to be going into the game. They arnt going to develop a character KNOWING its gonna be a niche pick that 1% of the community wants to deal with. They're gonna develop a character that catches people's interest and makes people want to buy that character.
Everytime we get an update with new things, the game gets alot of attention from both people wanting to play AS whatever character is new and the people that want to play AGAINST whatever is new. Niche picks bore both sides since even the ones who want to go AGAINST the new stuff gets bored when nobody picks it. Then people are left waiting another 3 months hoping the NEXT shiny toy will refresh their interest in the game.
Do you really think all of us has the time to play Trapper as much as Otz to get to his level? Most of us play some killers once in a while and will never become expert with a weak killer.
Wraith is in a fine spot right now and I would say that is C tier or low B tier. All killers worse than Wraith right now should be buffed just like solo survivors should be buffed with always seeing other survivors auras when someone is hooked.
Firstly, thank you for clarifying the message and editing it to make your point. I appreciate that :).
So, in response I would say that there was an agreement with OP that some killers could be stronger than others for the purposes of difficulty. I'd argue though that it wasn't a message agreeing to "weak" killers, moreover saying that it was fine to have some stronger than others. The difference there is that all killers should be viable, but at different levels of difficulty.
My first paragraph to OP alludes to the need to have this by saying that sometimes it's necessary to adjust killer balance because of them being too overpowered or underpowered, so looking for an even playing ground.
I certainly agree with you that no killer should be made weak, and also agree with your comments about add-ons. Also, I agree with OP that killers should be at different levels of difficulty to challenge players. So why not have options of having killers who are all strong enough and viable, but having some have a bit more of an advantage than others, and also add-ons that weaken (or use less perks) so people feel challenged without the feeling of hopelessness?
I mean the ideal is for every killer to be viable but not broken against most teams and maps but that will also likely never happen but I see no problem with trying to achieve it even if bhvr doesn't have a great track record with these kind of things
I typed out that and then was like...I should probably explain abit more, lol. You just happened to reply to it while I was in the middle of editing.
As far as I'm seeing, OP isn't really for buffing the weak killers, but rather leaving them weak for the sake of having challenging to play characters. He kept bringing up Trapper for example and how Otzdarva plays Trapper...but Otzdarva himself has been saying for years (as well as the majority of the community) that Trapper should be buffed to allow him to carry more than 1 trap without needing an add-on.
Typically when you have a killer with low mobility that has a power that doesnt help much in a chase... they need some love. Demo is a good example of a killer who has abit of both and works out wonderfully IMO. I can play Demo without any addons, and his addons also dont feel super oppressive. Trapper, Clown and Trickster however are killers with powers that are meh in chase and have low mobility. They have addons that crank up their power, but otherwise they feel meh.
I would even add Myers to this list since he's the only killer who can actually run out of his power. Being able to pop that T3 is great for offsetting his weakness in his mobility, but you can find yourself without being able to stalk anybody by the lategame...leaving you stranded in T2. I like Myers in general, but would like to see some change in this facet so you arnt left in this situation.
I never said I care. If anything, it's OP that is troubled because he seems to want people to play mediocre killers.
the devs don't know the meaning of a balanced killer we used to have one but BHVR just hit him a nerf so they just make some killers too strong or too weak because it's the quickest option
Yeah, I can certainly see what you've written about OP leaving weak killers as is. Especially with the comments about The Trickster.
What I was reading into it though was the idea of not buffing all killers into oblivion. I'm wondering whether there's a concern by the OP that this might be the direction the game is going. It's not likely, since killers, add-ons and perks are often given balance changes. Some make perfect sense; some make more sense in the long-term; some seem completely loopy!
So, I agree with OP in so much as not having all killers absolutely destructive, but yeah likewise I think the idea of leaving killers too weak isn't good for balance. Having an ideal balance whereby killers feel strong enough, yet also have survivors feel capable of survival is ideal. No idea how it'll happen though, because of all the various aspects involved in getting this balance. It's very complex when I think about it! Maybe the devs aren't recognised by the task they're facing and how massive the problem is!
Anyway, sorry went off at a tangeant. Just the idea of balance is general is quite the mountain!
I havent really seen the devs buffing strong killers to make them stronger though. If anything, they're toning them down. Nurse, Spirit and Billy for example have all gotten nerfs across the board. Nurse and Spirit have gotten multiple. I havent really seen the case of BUFFING any into oblivion. I guess maybe you could say Freddy after his rework, but that was a fullblown rework that has sense been nerfed.
Neither have I. But it's something the OP either feels they've seen (whether mistaken or not), or fears will happen. It could be worthwhile finding what it is the OP is sensing and where they've gathered the intel from. Although I admit I haven't read every post here, so that explanation may well be smooshed within these replies somewhere.
It could simply be a case of them being annoyed by something and exaggerating what they're feeling, which often leads to gaping holes in logic, but at the same time has a very real foundation of concern that must have come from somewhere to make them feel like they do.
I mean for me nemesis being weak is annoying cause I'm not losing due to skill, I'm losing due to the tentacle hitbox is inconsistent and people holding w across the map. I don't specifically want nemesis to be stronger, I just want nemesis to be fun.
As for trickster, the only buff I want for him is remove the recoil cause that literally screws over console killers.
Its either Make killers that can perform or nerf survivors....
MAKE YOUR CHOICE...
Is this a meme post? Nemesis is low tier due to 8 free health states. Against good survivors you are literally either a powerless M1 115% killer early game or you use your power early game and gens will fly. I'd love for you to give me the real time second breakdown of the first two downs in a game in your opinion of what a good nemesis player should do to somehow counter this.
The fact that they nerfed the laceration timer and the rate of decay was just overkill.
I honestly just want old trickster back with just the new main event.
Does that mean i need to play 7k hour to do good with a bad killer.
No. Most people deem Trapper the second-worst Killer next to Trickster.
Mindless Otz praise of Otz vs. bad players isn't gonna prove anything.
Otz can be as good as he wants to be, but his Trapper is gonna win because he's playing against a bad group. It genuinely doesn't have much to do with him being some god that everyone sees him as.
Can you please not insult otz? He's a wholesome pillar of the community and his content and streams help alot of people goinf through the tough times we are facing right now. Just being able to tune in to his streams, hang out with otz(and all my community friends) and see some positivity being spread across the community is great.
you're right, i shouldnt be so harsh. that and swftober with my favorite power couple tobies and bronx really makes me happy at the end of the day.
tehre is a reason why no one play certain killers so if arent buffed they wont play them, why? because no one likes to get bullied. at least at rank 1.
He didn't insult otz at all. Just pointing out that there is no MMR so the argument that "this player who has x thousand hours in the game being matched against 2 dudes who have 100 hours each doesn't mean anything". The same argument as win streaks from these players are largely meaningless because most of the people they face have a fraction of the playtime that they do.
lol just because you win doesn't mean the killer is strong. Objectively speaking Trapper has is downs and ups. If he can't set up his traps due time pressure he will lose and feel really weird. But it can go the other way around.
But that does not aply do Trickster imo since just go Brrr and the survivor goes down. But he is still not strong since just downing a survivor doesn't win you any matches. You need to pressure Generators and as a 110% MS Killer you only can do that if you can pressure survivors by downing them fast or pressure them over the map.
Trickster was one of the worst killers but it doesn't mean he was that bad. It means just that was compared to other killers not as strong which is totally fine since not every killer can be the next hot #########. I mained him since I liked his character design and I was prepared to not do hot every match but I still got my 2-4k or 0k with everyone dead on hook which was fine. But that doesn't make him a good killer, just because I was doing fine. I dislike the new Trickster. Downing Survivors like insects with 0 effort with his purple unadressed addons is just boring and not fun to see. He is stronger than nurse if it comes to that. But without those addons he is kinda... worse? Like don't get me wrong - Main Event is finally great besides that you need 30 knives now. But he has way less knives and still no good map pressure.
I personally wish they nerf him so he needs 7 knives and not 6, increases his throwing speed, reduces the knives he needs for main event and increases the avaible knives to 50. And I wish he has a third ability which deactives his knives for few seconds but increases his movement speed so he can run faster to important objectives and position himself better.
Tell me you play survivor without telling me you play survivor.