Here's how we balance SWF
So we all know removing SWF will gain no support from the survivor mains and we all know survivor mains claim SWF is not OP but you and I know fully well that's not true. They are OP as hell.
Since we can't get rid of SWF we give all survivors in-game voice chat.
So now every survivor solo or crossplay or whatever is now held up to the same standard as SWF
So now solos are finally on par with SWF all killers MUST be buffed accordingly to match spirit and nurse as ALL KILLERS SHOULD BE VIABLE AT RED RANKS.
There is no more difference from solo and SWF they are both on par with each other and killers must be buffed to compensate. No more balancing the game around solos.
Comments
Voice comm survivors will always be stronger than killers. I rather have the player who is queuing as killer decide if they rather play against solo survivors or both solo and swf. It is the killers game as much as it is the swf game so I don't see a reason why the killers can't toggle group matches on or off.
Do not waste your effort at making a post about it my friend. They will never do something about it.
Tho giving a voip to the game is a good idea cause it could give solo play the same experience swf has and incentivate devs to finally balance the game properly.
Voice comms would be a good first step.
Throw in a few more things and we've got a decent buff to Solo Q, which means a decent buff for Killers.
We can just mark SWFs in the lobby. InGame Voicechat would just backfire.
In-game voice chat would ruin it for me. I prefer playing solo and I cannot help but think that if I were to mute the chat my fellow survivors would probably just troll or leave me to die on first hook for not participating. Plus it would destroy the immersion.
Not everyone has the opportunity for voice chat. Everyone can ping and do voice commands to roughly similar effect, though.
I think they'd be a better alternative for in-game voice chat.
It's a nice idea, especially since it works in Friday the 13th, but people will get around it by just muting their in-game mics and talk through Discord or Playstation Parties or whatever.
While I agree with Pulsar and think having Solos with built in Comms would be a nice first step, I suspect the demands of the game might overpower a lot of systems. Some people have trouble running DbD now. Still, if it can be done, it is a nice step forward. I still think there will be Players who are uncomfortable with being forced to voice chat with others and simply won't do it. I think we will be writing them off as Players.
I think an easier first step (if we aren't going to break Solo and Team into their own Queues) is to code a simple Perk Slot expansion. Anytime a Killer enters into a match with 3+ SWF, an additional Perk Slot opens up to help counter balance the competitive edge provided by the SWF 5th Perk (Comms). Doing this would alleviate the need for trying to balance with juicing up Killer Perks (this has the nasty side effect of strangling Solo 10x worse than it does SWF).
Killers are more than willing to play against SWF, but I think they would like to know when they are doing so, and I think they would like compensation in the way of balancing the extra info. I truly think testing out the unlock of a 5th Perk is the right way to start. It is less code intensive, and less demanding on the Players themselves.
Despite knowing, who is opening the Thread, I try. I know, I will not convince OP, this is an hopeless task, but luckily there are also other and more normal people in this Forum:
Ingame Voice Comms are a terrible idea. Several reasons.
First: Discord exists-->Ingame Voice Comms would need to be able to be disabled, this should be clear. However, why should anyone use them when there is already Discord, which is an almost perfect programm for communication? So, if I am playing Solo and I am with a 3 man SWF, why should they include me in my communication? They will probably still do fine, but I am the one getting screwed, because they have their own comms (which does not make it necessary to have ingame Comms), and since the game is balanced around SWFs, the Solo will suffer in this case.
Second: Language Barrier-->Not everyone speaks the same language. I have experience with events on international level, so I know how it feels when you talk to people who will not understand you and when you need a translator. However, the possibility of getting a translator is not possible in DBD. And not everyone speaks english - like, I am German, I can speak English. What if I play with some Italians or French, and they dont know English or they dont want to talk it? Then we all are screwed, yay.
This might work for the US where English is the main language, but this will not work for EU. Like, I guess 2/3 of my games have Russian players in it, and often enough, the first thing I see them typing is Russian. This indicates for me that they might not speak English, so ingame comms would do nothing for them or their teammates, who dont understand Russian.
Third: Social Barrier-->I know some of those players and I know what they are typing in the Endgame Chat - you dont want to talk to them. The DBD-Community is really immature and not everyone likes to be insulted by 14yo with 5 Euro-microphones.
And last but not least: Immersion-->Even if all of this above would be solved (everyone using ingame comms, everyone speaking the same language, everyone being mature and friendly), there are still people who just dont want to communicate with everyone. Who want to have an immersive experience in the game without talking to anyone, just hearing Chase Music or Terror Radius while playing. And you also need to keep in mind those players, they would have a really bad experience when the game is balanced around SWFs. And no it is not "their fault" for not participating in ingame comms, they should not be forced to do that.
Since I know that not everyone will read as much (especially OP):
tl, dr:
Ingame Comms suck because of already existing programs (which remove the need to use the ingame comms), Language Barriers, the "amazing" DBD-Community and Immersion.
SWF is not that big of a deal, people should stop blaming all their losses on SWF (especially if they try to mindgame safe Pallets on The Game or lose Survivors right in the open, because they are THAT bad at tracking...Both things which also happen when facing Solos).
In-game VC would be an absolute nightmare. Look at F13th. It had several problems with players berating each other, and with DBD having a far more toxic community, people would have slurs and cusses thrown their way every day. Just imagine what streamers would have to go through.
There are some good points in here that I missed; I hate it when someone catches stuff I miss. :) I've already stated that I think balancing the competitive edge of SWF can be handled a bit more gentle simply by unlocking an extra Perk slot for Killers when they face them. I think this is better for the Solos too, because then individual Perks don't get juiced to try and deal with the problem. The extra Perk only comes out when appropriate.
It still bugs me that I missed the whole language angle. But then again, your posts are always pretty on the beam.
This is a terrible idea, really. In-game voice chat should not be a thing. I don't want to hear those toxic and crying babies complaining about everything or being d!cks. You can't really balance SWF. And wdym "only Spirit and Nurse are viable at red ranks"? They aren't the only ones who are viable at red ranks. All killers are viable at red ranks. But some of them have it easier. Like Nurse and Spirit yes, but also Hag, Blight, Huntress, Oni, and maybe Pyramid Head.
You're replying to someone who doesn't even have devotion 1 in game and spends more time complaining about ghosts than actually getting good at the game
I'm almost devotion 3 what are you talking about?
you lost me when you said "all killers are viable at red ranks"
Trapper and trickster are not viable at all in red ranks, nice try
by the way I never said the killer would hear their voice.
It would be only hearable through the survivor's end"
what do you think I want to listen to a survivor scream in the ######### mic all day as killer?
You seem to do enough screaming as is so idk what difference it'd make tbf
First, as a survivor main, i dont support the removal of swf, but the seperation and individual balancing of swf from solo queue.
Also, giving voice chat to all doesnt solve anything. In the US maybe, but here in europe i play with a lot of russians which cant even write the same alphabet, let alone in a common language. I doubt voice chat would help that.
third, while one factor for the sucess is communication, its far from the only one. I played in swf groups without comm, and we still easily won, because your teammates where reliable. They cared for you, and that took protection hits, didnt farm you, didn´t dc. no voice chat will make your random teammates do that.
lastly, the game is designed around a lack of information. Thats what makes the game interesting, in my opinion. The moment you always know when you are safe it becomes boring. Thats why i stopped playing swf.
To summit: Voice chat doesnt turn solo into swf, thus it still can´t be balanced accordingly. To me, the only way to do it is to seperate solo and swf queue. Balance each seperatly, and killers won´t need to dodge swf, since it will be just as balanced as solo.
Wheeeyyy its Lord Tony and his top banter 😂 I'm joking man I like to crack jokes.
I see what you mean here though man. I play both roles. I honestly don't see the devs doing anything about it though unfortunately.. survivors will have a field day and a massive tantrum. I'm survivor solo all the way because I cannot stand hearing fluent dbd speech and not have a conversation based on anything else. I'm sick of hearing the tension being taken from the other survivors like "he's over there in the main building " or "if you fix that gen Sammiie then il go for the save " it's annoying asf! Half of the time I feel sorry for how pressurising it is for the killer as well, knowing how much pressure it is when I'm playing the killer role. It's one of these things if you take swf away you'll have minimal survivors to go against as they've taken something from the game to allow a chat and game with their mates. Wouldn't waste your time going on about it dude, devs won't do anything about it 😔
@Lord_Tony
I’d be interested to see how you play Trapper.
I play him and constantly get 3-4ks. My build is Corrupt/Sloppy/STBFL/Whispers. I try to use the extra traps because that is where I feel trapper suffers the most.
I know you speak from your own experience but to say he is not viable at red ranks, meanwhile I am getting kills from one of the weakest killers in the game. I don’t know if I can relate.
you better learn russian then, comrad
you're clearly playing against potatos and not SWF
Na, i dont expect them to implement a voice chat, and if they do, i might just stop playing. Its not the first game i quite after playing for some years. its eating up too much of my free time anyway.
In a perfect world balancing separately would be a good solution. But this will never happen. When you look how fast the balancing of the game is right now, when would solo/swf be balanced? And the workload for that is insane. Its not that easy like a fifth perk. And then they need to balance every new chapter for both modes. They would need more time and that means less time for game health etc.
devs already said they won't make every killer S tier level
next
So Pings or voice commands would be the perfect solution?
the problem right now is that you just can´t balance around solo and swf at the same time.
If you make killers stronger in comparision, they might be able to deal with sweaty swf, but solo can´t keep up. If you balance in the direction of a fair game for solo survivors, the average killer will be stomped they most swf, even the ones just playing for fun.
So yes, i see how fast the balancing is now, since it is next to impossible to do.
Can you give me a example for a fifth perk build which would normalize the difference between swf/solo? How would you counter the disadvantage of a stealth killer with one perk?
Not who you quoted but I think a ping system would be better for a couple of reasons:
-Gets around the language barrier
-Can be easier to mute or ignore
-Can include solos with the SWF
-Can't call people slurs with pre-designed messages
-Would be more accessible to people without a (good) mic.
As long as it's optional I would be fine with it. Just don't force me to listen to random strangers
I dont think so. In tournaments spirit/nurse can win against teams with comms. They can win bc they ignore pallets and even good survivor cant loop forever. This shows that the real problem are survivor who can loop and waste too much time. Swf makes the team only a bit more efficient in most cases. Swf bonus is greater for bad players bc they hide more in solos.
Normalize it? No. There is no way to perfectly balance the potential information of Comms, but a 5th Perk Slot on Killers is a serious Force Multiplier. The combinations now possible would certainly grant a hard to measure competitive edge, just like Comms itself.
I'm not sure I understand that last question. Did you mean to say, how would I counter the disadvantage a Stealth Killer faces with one additional Perk? I hope that was your meaning, and I'll proceed for now as if it is so.
Consider the implications of stacking multiple regression Perks up, all the good ones. There are just too many combinations now possible to fully relate. Like Comms itself, the potential is huge, but it isn't automatically OP. The Killer still has to make USE of the potential, and like some SWF it could be squandered.
Like Comms itself, the potential is huge,
Brutal/Bamboozle/Fire Up/Enduring/Spirit Fury Nurse.
I want your idea implemented just so I can use that build
I think its different. I dont need a swf telling me that oni is chasing them bc i know that i can get to safety when i hear his terror radius. The killer location against non-stealth-killer is not really important in most cases. If it becomes harder to know where the killer is the information becomes more valuable. So while its harder to get the information if the swf gets the location of the stealth killer it has more impact on the game.
I just think the benefit of a fifth perk varies between killers and while some are fine with an extra ruin, others will always have it easier against solos. But imo swf is not the real balance problem its bad matchmaking. I think that the difference between 4 good solos and a good swf is smaller as most people think.
But if the MMR-system does not fix the killrate we have right now, then killer would need a nerf against solos instead of a buff against swf.
@Lord_Tony
and let me guess you are playing against the top red rank survivors?
Dude. Do you even listen to yourself sometimes? I check their names and many times they are streaming so I am only speaking from the ones where I know for a fact they are SWF.
Nah, forced voice chat is not an answer. I don't want to have to use voice chat with random people, and I'm on console using discord with my friends so having multiple chat streams isn't an option either.
But you're on the right track. Buff solo's capacity for coordination closer to that of a SWF, and you level the playing field enough to adjust balance in favour of the killer at higher skill levels.
None of these things would buff SWFs, as communication via comms does the same thing. But it will bring solo players up closer to the capabilities of a SWF.
Once Solos are closer to SWFs, other balance changes can be made, like reducing gen speeds or whatever is necessary.
As for the "fifth perk slot for killer" idea. I think this could work IF it was restricted only to Hex perks, and was the only way to use Hex perks. So that every game would come with just one Hex. This would require an overhaul of the Hex perk system though, and require them to be balanced in a way that wasn't too OP, considering it's effectively making one Hex per game a basekit tool, but at the same time, Hex perks would scale with the number of totems uncleansed, so they're no longer all-or-nothing. I have some ideas for this too:
Hex: Blood Favour - Pallets are held in place for 4 seconds for each uncleansed totem (20 seconds max).
Hex: Crowd Control - Vaulted windows are blocked for 2/3/4 seconds for each uncleansed totem (20 seconds max).
Hex: Devour Hope - Maximum number of tokens you can have is 1 + number of uncleansed totems. Haste effect is available with just 1 token. (much easier to remove the exposed effect, but the haste will persist)
Hex: Haunted Ground - A survivor becomes Exposed when they cleanse a totem, Exposed status persists until they cleanse another totem. Gain an audible notification when a survivor becomes Exposed. (individual comeuppance for potentially longer duration instead of all survivors)
Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Maximum number of tokens you can have is 2 + number of uncleansed totems.
Hex: No One Escapes Death - Gain 1 token for each uncleansed totem when the last gen is repaired. All survivors are Exposed while you have at least 1 token. Putting a survivor into the dying state consumes a token. (Generic Perk)
Hex: Retribution - When a totem is cleansed you see the auras of all survivors for 3 seconds for each uncleansed totem (12 seconds max). You gain Undetectable for 6 seconds for each uncleansed totem.
Hex: Ruin - So long as you have at least 1 totem, generators automatically regress and cannot be kicked. Each additional uncleansed totem increases regression speed by 25% up to a maximum of 200%. (Moved to be a Generic Perk, the Hag gains a new perk to replace it.)
Third Seal - No longer a Hex Perk. Survivors hit with your basic attack suffer from Blindness for 60/75/90 seconds.
Hex: Thrill of the Hunt - Effect remains as long as there is any one totem standing. Increase the bloodpoint bonus to 20% per token for ALL categories. (Generic Perk)
Undying Hex - No longer a Hex Perk. The Aura of any survivor working on a totem is revealed to you for 2/4/6 seconds. When your final totem is cleansed, another random totem will be rebuilt once per trial.
Hag’s replacement for Ruin - When a survivor is rescued from the hook, they are cursed for the next 45/60/75 seconds. When repairing a generator, any good skill checks result in 5% regression and any great skill checks result in 1% regression. Only one survivor can be cursed at any time.
So this way, Hags triple Hex situation is fixed, and there are three generic Hex perks to choose from. NOED (token based), Ruin (varying regression speeds) and Thrill (better BP bonus).
Making some information perks basekit to buff solo Q to SWF would be a start. Good examples: Kindred, Buckle Up, Totem Counter basekit.
Once solo Q and SWF are equal then I think it would be fair to buff killers and adjust some perks.
It would be a better solution, yes. So basically removing the information gap by giving Ingame Information. Like, a Command Wheel which indicates like "I am being chased" or "Doing a Totem" or "Going for Unhook" does nothing for SWFs, but would increase the information for Solos.
But, and this is a BIG but - BHVR will not do that. Just look at the Totem Counter we got - Totem Counters were asked for for years and we finally got it - bound to a Perk. They also said that there are no plans to make Kindred Basekit, which was also asked for for a long time (even before the Buff).
I also dont know why there is no basic Chase Indicator and you only know that another Survivor is being chased when they are the Obsession. So there are no plans for the near future to close the Gap between SWF and Solos.
I will just post the screenshot I posted in another reply to you (which you ignored):
(Again, no names censored, nobody did anything wrong, they were all nice players)
This is a 4 man SWF. Yes, they are not all Red Ranks, but this can happen in SWF, they are just friends playing together. The game is able to see if Survivors in the Lobby are SWF, however, it cannot see if those people are actually good at the game.
A fifth Perk Slot for me in this case would just mean that those guys stood even less of a chance - I did not tunnel or camp anyone (everyone got quite some points, so nobody died early) and still they did not manage to do all 5 Gens. How exactly do you wish to demolish those casual players, if I get access to another Perk Slot (like Corrupt Intervention to give me an even better early game, or Pop goes the Braincell?)?
It would basically be frustrating for every SWF which is not full of tournament players, those are the only SWFs which make Killer hard. However, there is maybe a dozen of those worldwide, not really a problem.
(Really, "highest level of play" is just an excuse to keep Bullshit in the game, while nobody who is talking about "highest level of play" is actually experiencing it...)
So, as long as the game cannot really predict that I (in this case) really NEED a fifth Perk Slot, otherwise I would get demolished, giving such a high advantage to the Killer is simply wrong. It would just punish those players who would have lost anyway, but they would get even less done (like, those guys got 4 Gens done, I was in no danger of losing at any point... Should I finish the game with 5 Gens left instead?...)
I didn't ignore it; I wasn't sure how to address it. I have a feeling that you would destroy the same group with zero Perks. I'm not certain you are the best person to judge it by. I also want to point out that while I agree with you that SWF do not automatically equate to good, all SWF do have a competitive edge. It is a "potential" advantage. I think an additional Perk Slot on Killers is the same thing, i.e. a "potential" advantage. Many Killers are just bad and giving them another Perk slot isn't going to make them good either.
Just because a large number of SWF aren't good doesn't mean the advantage isn't there. There is a reason we are suffering for Killers right now. For what it is worth, I don't have massive problems with SWF either, but I'm insanely competitive. I'm not a good person to judge it by either. Something has to be done. I cede the point that my idea might be too much, but doing nothing isn't viable at this rate either.
just give us basekit kindred