There needs to be logical counterplay against Spirit, and when you play as her.
To anyone who thinks a certain streamer gives you logical counterplay against the Spirit actually works, I just had a match against a Stridor Spirit. The crouching tech that muffles your sounds, the baiting of window vaults, and dropping pallet mind games did not do jack of anything. Because how am I supposed to be able to do all this kind of stuff against a Spirit who runs Stridor, who basically knows where I am because she can hear me and I can't make out where she is? If you run Iron Will against a Spirit who doesn't use Stridor and know how to use it properly, that one perk instantly destroys what her entire power is. All I'm asking for is the survivor and Spirit both need logical counterplay of some sort to be able to get the one up on each other, and perks such as Iron Will and Stridor should not be able to do that for them. I don't think Spirit needs a nerf of any sort, but I think a rework that keeps her at least a strong killer as well as having actual counterplay on both sides is what people want. I can't make out what sort of rework I would do to Spirit since I don't main her, but people that have big brains can probably give loads of ideas.
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"Is not gonna fall for easily counterable." "Is not" is an absolute. But why are you even bothering to argue that? We clearly agree that this is a counter to spirit that at least works some of the time.
So they can tell what side of a wall I'm at?
Yes.
The hag/trapper can do the exact same thing if they has prepped a trap so....
With the hag's trap she can win every window by the idle mind game with her phantasm instead of instantly teleporting.
She has EVEN LESS counterplay then the spirit does because with the spirit its always possible to take the 3rd option and sneak away erratically from the window/pallet while the spirit is shifted with isn't an option against either the hag or trapper.
So we still talking about the good enough spirits? I'd say that 30% is pretty big against those. 4 survivors. 2 hit states. If the survivors are also good enough that 30% is enough for 2 survivors to get out. Of course, solo queue sucks but that's a match making problem.
Stop listening to tru3 lol omg
Spirit needs her add ons looked at, they're highly problematic. Aside from that idk, I'd love to see them introduce something that gives survivors some chance at knowing when exactly she's phasing but then you have killers screaming that this would make her extremely bad and that you're just a survivor asking for killer nerfs.
Like, I still want her to be an S tier killer I just don't like how the complete unpredictability of phase walking gives Spirit free grabs or hits sometimes.
Aside from iron will you can also use a flashlight to erase her husk (If in fact she left that behind) or spine chill which is actually super nifty, it lights up when she's looking at you and when/if she phases or begins phase walking it will no longer light up I've seen streamers utilize this against her at pallets.
And I mean like.. Iron will and spine chill are amazing. Iron will is imo the next strongest perk once DS nerf goes live so honestly I think every survivor should bring it and have that sort of failsafe against Spirit but idk
I want survivors to have a chance and I also want Spirit to still be one of the strongest killers in the game lol
Time to get hate from both sides
That sums up perfectly. Apparently people can't adjust to this because against every other killer, they can get away by reacting, only not for spirit.
I think it's really cool for such killer to exist. At least when i'm playing as survivor, the game won't be so dull when everything i need to do is react against what your opponent does.
My enter point just flew right over your head as you looked for your preconceived notion.
It's why she's one of my favorite killers to face as well. Killers that make you play differently are good design and keep the game much more fresh. The game can get repetitive and boring to people because the majority of the killer roster is countered in the same way.
A design philosophy they should be going by is to make each killer require a different kind of counter play. This is how you keep the game feeling unique and new even without implementing new game modes.
Regardless, playing against Spirit in her current state is extremely unsatisfying. A tell would help survivors feel like they are getting outplayed, and not attempting to play against near insurmountable odds depending on how good the Spirit is.
he's not talking pointblank in front of the killer. He's talking about vaults like shack or T-L walls where the survivor and killer have to make genuine reads by predicting the vault/faking the vault.
Spirit already has counter-play, its about making reads on her phase walk movement and doing unpredictable jukes. OP was just facing a Spirit of top-tier skill caliber that was correctly predicting his jukes. There is reason why she's 2nd best killer in the game. For some reason, people think that counter-play = 100% full proof. Its not suppose to be 100% full proof, its meant to be 50/50 reads and if your facing strong spirit player, their reads are going to be difficult.
Hey there paisanos, Grandpa here.
Just wanna remind you that people who don't think Spirit is fine and people who do think Spirit is definitely reasonable and fair are going to enter and leave this thread thinking the exact same thing they already were.
I would also like to remind you that there are people who enjoy stepping in bear traps and headbutting blenders.
Take it with a grain of salt.
I'm still waiting on this extensive list of counter-plays to Spirit that you've mentioned earlier. I imagine someone with your knowledge should have numerous examples to share with all of us. Enlighten me.
They won't they always say stuff like this and then don't actually explain how one is supposed to loop against a Spirit. They give vague tips but nothing concrete and then talk down to people who are asking for a detailed explanation of a scenario vs Spirit 😑
"jUsT lEaVe ThE lOoP"
The reason why is because they themselves know there's almost no proper counterplay to Spirit in a chase except guessing at nothing...which they confirm by saying that Spirit is supposed to have no feedback of the sort and that's the whole point. So...the point of Spirit having almost no real counterplay still stands, and anything that you do against her is making a wild guess and using iron will.
I don't get it lmao. It's fine if a killer has difficult counterplay, or forces you to play in a different way (Huntress, Nurse, Blight, Demo, Oni...etc) but all we want is some actual feedback on her power to make it less frustrating.
Yeah, about that...
No no no, no, see, you just don't get it, alright? You need to have a very big brain to play against Spirit. She requires a higher level of thought to go against. I'd explain it to you, but unfortunately, your brain just doesn't have as many wrinkles as mine, so it'd fly right over your head.
But it's so easy.
Maybe one day I'll be able to open my third eye and ascend to my planar form to finally counter Spirit, but until then I guess I'll keep leaving the loop and dying :(
Ok can you record your next vs Spirit game and upload it to YouTube or something, because in my 2 years of playing I have NEVER seen the grass physically move when Spirit phases through it, and if it did I wouldn't be complaining about her. You can hear it if you're very close and there's currently no chase music but that's it. From watching so many streamers play against Spirit, and my own games, I have not once seen her move grass.
I would like it if Spirit always made her WHOOSHING noise whenever the Survivor is within her terror radius. That way they can't stand still to try and mind game a pallet. I also wouldn't mind some kind of sound cue to play non-directionally that lets the Survivor know she is within like 5m while phased. Just to let them know they have a split second to try something to avoid a hit.
Good Spirits would likely have no real issue dealing with those kinds of changes. Good Survivors would be able to at least TRY something with them. As it currently stands, pallet humping and hoping you picked the right side is kinda lame.
Regarding 1 - I play on low graphics and I've never noticed this - Does she actually? I've legit never seen it from a survivor POV even testing this with friends. Show me video of this and I will rescind part of my post correcting it.
Regarding 2 - You need to be so close to see this that you're basically taking a hit and honestly that comes off as a visual bug BHVR has never fixed.
Exactly this. I love Spirit to death. She's the killer I mostly enjoy, but she needs to have some sort of indicator on what she's doing so the survivors have something to react to.
People say the counter play to Spirit is forcing her to react to you, but any good Spirit player will always be able to react and track exactly where you are because she simply moves super fast having all the information while the survivors have barely any information. It can work against bad Spirits, but that's just an invalid way to prove that the counter play exists.
I wouldn't mind directional audio as long as it was inconsistent. It would definitely remove the stand still "2000 IQ mind game."
Could work both ways. It would also remove the Stridor complaints:
Every 1-1.5 seconds (don't know which) while phased, Survivors can hear the Spirit while the Spirit can hear the Survivors. This affect lasts 0.5 seconds, after which neither can hear each other again.
This would give both something to work with. Spirit would still see scratch marks and would still have the upper hand as a result, but both would only hear each other inconsistently. It could be hard coded to avoid both Stridor and Iron Will, so IW would still work when Spirit isn't phased, as would Stridor, but both perks wouldn't be helpful during phase.
Ok I'm gonna have to disagree with Hag taking a lot of skill. It doesn't take that much time to learn where to place traps. New players will be bad with her, but if you're experienced, just place traps in good spots and that's literally all you need to learn.
I would be down for that
We saw what happened to Nurse, what happened to Billy (especially), what's going to happen to Freddy and what will definitely happen to Huntress. That's all it is.
What's the counter to survivors that want to win? Nothing.
This is, as many things, a BHVR problem.
Can you tell me how to beat Survivors that wanna do gens and aren't noobs at looping? I plan on using Wraith.
Its basically the saying the same thing as "anyone who thinks certain streamers say that spirit has no counter play". Like why rework something that works right? She doesn't need a rework or buff or a nerf. No one really complained about her until certain people started parroting that "she's op op!!". Spirit takes a little bit more brain power to go against than your average m1 killer. Even with recharge add ons you can run her around for a while enough to finish gens. Shes 110% meaning loops will definitely work alot better if you know how to loop correctly. Let's not make killers frsuting to play as such as nurse. Every killer should be unique.
Being better and smarter.
If you're up against one of the legendary Tournament™ Squads™, then that plus luck.
Which is also, as many things, a BHVR problem.
Wraith can NOT defeat a group of Survivors that want to win and aren't potatoes. Let's be serious here lol.
Okay I just did some review and I think she moved grass when she was released, but they removed that. What I can say for certain, is you can hear her footsteps, especially on indoor maps. And I think you can hear grass move when she walks through it, not sure though. My bad.
I never really have trouble with spirit anyway since I basically always run spine chill and Iron Will, 2 universally helpful perks (aside from plague) and don't need to see grass move to be confident in my decisions. If her model is not moving and looking right at me, and spine chill stops lighting up, I know she's phasing.
Not really a 50/50 with a 3rd person camera, being able to look from behind cover vs a first person cam while also having a red light shining in walking direction (and yes I know moonwalking).
And let's not talk about stretched res to look over some loopable obstacles.
Stretched res is bullshit I’ll agree about that but it isn’t used to often
Moonwalking is very common and counters the survivors inherent camera advantage mind you spirit doesn’t even have to
The game is full of safe pallets and windows. Against good survivors who know that looking behind them is possible, m1 killers have no counterplay in chases. They rely purely on survivors to make mistakes.
Yes but what I am trying to say here is that spirit against a healthy survivor is skin to a reverse situation to the norm for killer.
The killer has to use "advanced" strategies (moonwalking) to make up for the inherent disadvantage at mind games.
Of course the comparison is kind of a stretch but I think that this reverse situation is the reason for all the anger.
The argument that survivor want all killer to be played against in a similar fashion is an observable trend given that the most hated killer are the ones that can't just be looped like normal e.g. ph, slinger or spirit. Hag and nurse would also fall in this category but either have more than enough counterplay, are bugged or both so you find less "pls nerf/fix killer x" threads about them.
Just play better lol
Tbf I actually really enjoy PH now
Other killers like huntress plague trapper and billy all change up normal looping and mind games and are a blast to play against
But killers like slinger or spirit aren’t liked because they don’t give the survivors any way to show the looping ability as their powers completely ignore loops which is bad for the game imo
But isn't the survivor adage against killers that play poor "git gud"?
So your argument is, if a killer player gets good at a killer... you want that killer nerfed for all players??
And yet at the same time presumably you're happy with the abundance of 2nd chance perks that good survivors can use to totally break the game. Breaking the game is just a perk of putting in the hours to get good enough to bully killers?
Interesting.
Firstly when did I say second chance perks were fine? They have their place but need to be toned down
secondly I have no problem with someone who is good at balanced killers like huntress blight and billy. My problem is killers like spirit require little skill to become good with but are also very potent
You’re making very baseless assumptions here
The thing that's wrong with spirit is her power being kinda "shut off" by/having only one reliable counter which is a perk: iron will. How does this make sense? U can try and say calm spirit counters doctor, and spine chill counters stealth killers, yh no, it "counters" them to some extent but u can still do really fine without them. With spirit, u cant do anything without iron Will, unless they r completely new.
I don't know what could be done about her without changing her MUCH to balance her:
Spirit not being able to hear injured sounds but she would always be able to hear them breathe (even if iron will)? I think that would be too much of a nerf.
Spirit having directional sounds when phasing? I think that could help but isn't she to fast to be able to properly react? Maybe the speed is only a problem with the busted add-ons she has tho, so this could be the best change to her?
these threads always go like this
"X has no counterplay"
"I do this and that to counterplay it"
"Then they are bad at X! There is no counterplay"
it's the dumbest thing ever. it's special leading, no true scotsman... all packed in a couple sentences.
maybe...just maybe... you're just bad at playing against spirit
Why doesn't have Spirit the highest kill ratio? Why are relatively good killer players still losing with her?
Why is she not picked more if she's so easy to 4k every match? Because killer players are so noble and do care about survivors fun so much? That's honestly not my experience from playing survivor, getting tunneled/ slugged/ camped/ Noed'd every second match...
Why are there killers saying she is hard to play for them? Because some people just don't like the way she works, it's uncomfortable for some to not see anything and just have to work with what you hear. Saying she requires absolutely no skill and anybody can be good with her is just not correct. If you're good and experienced in this game, you will probably also be a good Spirit, if not then not.
How do "counter" a deathslinger in an open deadzone? How do you "counter" a Wraith that just guessed your position behind a Wall correctly and hits you? Isn't juking an Hillbillys chainsaw as much skill as mindgaming a Spirit?
How do survivors even manage to escape against Spirits? -> most will answer "bEcAuSe ShE wAs jUsT BaD" which is a killing argument because i can say that about nearly every killer... why the Huntress/ Deathslinger didn't hit you in an open field with LOS? Guessing and mindgaming will forever be part of the game, accept it. Btw i don't have a problem with Spirit getting clues about her power, as long as those work like the red stain and you can use it for mindgaming survivors.
I guess you ignored my post earlier. It's because I've already listed these things out literally dozens and dozens of time over the years because people with opinions like yours never let this topic go and it's tiring to have to repeat myself all the time.
Here's just one of many examples from a recent post I made:
"IE she's phasing after you (all she sees is scratch marks going to a window and hears you fast vault), now you wait a couple seconds and then slow vault back over. You manipulated the info she received here. She will phase around assuming you kept going and now she has her power on cooldown and your on opposite sides of a 110% killer who shouldn't be downing you without her power. You just gave your team at least half an entire gen of objective progress without using a single pallet or getting a single hit."
The counter play regardless of the situation remains the same. You are giving her false information to mislead her into thinking you did something that you didn't. You are manipulating the fact that she can't see during her phasing. It's all about understanding what she is seeing and hearing.
I don't have issues with Spirit at rank 1 so you shouldn't either.
+100
Seriously. This is how it feels trying to explain things to people. They already have their minds made up and refuse to acknowledge that it may simply be their skill level that is holding them back.
We all know you can't play the same way with every killer and expect the same outcome.
When I play against a spirit (having urban evasion helps me) I go around the map at the beginning touching every gen so it's harder for spirit to track which one anyone is working on and then try to hide whenever I hear her approaching.
I hope it helps you too.
I think my way of playing against her is an example of what you just said (I just posted it on another comment and don't know how to tag you in it.