The flaw of the 4v1 argument.
Alright so after thinking about how when I bring up a killer that if the survivor plays good can beat in a 1v1 I'm always told it's a a 4v1 game. Here are the flaws.
Solo:
Ok so if some killers should only remain 4v1 countered like slinger or PH the average solo team would be losing. Solo is very unorganized how exactly is this fair?
Solo is notoriously weak/bad team wise and yet at the very least your own skills mean nothing in chase against some killers in chase. These leads to people wanting to play swf which when played optimally brings me to my next point.
Complaining:
If survivors play swf in a way that is optimal like splitting on gens killers will complain about gen speeds going fast. Which is fair they are pretty fast. My point being that these 4v1 killers have no real 1v1 counterplay so survivors are left to split the gen pressure.
Now survivors are moaned at for "gen rushing" or making the game too quick for killers. This leads me to my last point.
This or that:
It's either we play solo and struggle against these 4v1 killers or play in an optimal swf and moaned at for splitting on gens. Pick one these 4v1 killers encourage swf because swf is the best way to beat them rather than an unreliable solo team. Thats undeniable.
Anyways that's my thoughts stay hydrated.
Comments
I didn't mean make him more powerful. I meant, in my opinion, the killer should usually win the chase.
Ok so how would you do this if the survivor is is outplaying the killer to last a long time.
You don't need to "outplay" the killer to get most of the gens done in a single chase - Just drop pallets early and move to the next tile - Doing so often eliminates most mind games, as well.
BBQ and most other aura reading perks are irrelevant when talking about a chase. Stealthing in a chase refers to using things like QQ, Dance with Me, Iron Will, etc.
Looping isn't fun, particularly when you play against or with a group that realizes pre-dropping pallets is easy street.
You've never played with or against people that run to zones of the map without any generators/hooks or to a strong structure guaranteeing a huge time sink each time you see them?
Bloodlust takes a long time to build, is useless at certain loops, and if a killer relies on it to get a hit, the survivor can just resume dropping pallets early after their first hit. If the trend of normalizing every killer to have the same type of weakness/counterplay continues (we'll see after PH gets more nerfs), a gun may not be a bad idea.
I don't have any issue 4king or escaping most games, but it's a pretty boring experience, overall.
Its always fun to see the general misconception that swf is the norm.
Solo is the default mode, swf makes it easier or changes the survivor mindset and their terms of engagement. And cwf is obviouwly borderline cheating.
To the main topic, the 4v1 argument isnt flawed, as if it was ignored, the game simply breaks. If all four survivors could win the trial (not the chase, big difference, but gets ignored a lot) 1v1 then why the hell would it still be a 4v1?
I only play solo survivor cuz I'm just that, a Survivor! If you have to play 90% SWF you shouldn't comment in this forum because it doesn't become a survivor game at that point it's a mugging. In context of the game, how could 4 people coordinate without the killers immediately knowing locations and auras?
When killers are forced to only use 5 of 21 killers to stand a chance against SWF there's a problem. How many high ranking Clowns are there? But yet survivors are just skins and perks, so coordinating SWF needs to be nerfed.
Bro what?
Is there any thing that says survivors should always work with each other or could it also be a game of cut throat?
That is optimal play the majority definitely does not do that.
Gens are definitely not fast. So first of all, Please stop saying that. Killers can take out survivors just as fast if not faster! Moris combined with tunneling make the survivor experience dreadful. Every single time I play killer I annihilate the survivors. It’s not really balanced imo. Particularly on the smaller maps. It’s just too easy to catch people and down them. Killers suffer such minuscule penalty for missing attacks or after hits it makes it so you can down really quickly. Then comes the Snowball in favor of the killer. 🤬🤬🤬🤬
This game is meant to be 1 survivor VS 3 Survivors VS 1 killer.
I think the reason a lot of people will never see eye to eye on this issue (besides the occasional blatant bias) is because they don't experience the same degree of "how things can go." People who play at 3am and only get sauna levels of sweat in their games are going to have different opinions than people who get drunk with friends and play swf while goofing off, or the killers that play against said groups. Its very easy to say "I don't have that issue" or "I usually don't see things get that bad" and ignore the experience of others when contradicted.
If every game was played unoptimally with zero cooperation, then the 4's indivdual strength would need to be closer to the 1's to maintain balance. at that point, it would be more akin to 4 separate 1v1's. But thats not how this game is, nor is it how it is supposed to be. The reason why the 2k "gold standard of balance" is what the devs seem to strive for is because the killer is supposed to be stronger than the survivors, BUT time is their biggest enemy. You are not supposed to be able to escape every chase, BUT extending a chase that you lose is far more beneficial for survivors than winning the chase before the killer immediately regains pressure elsewhere. If someone is injured and working on a gen, and your chase leads near enough that the killer notices and downs them... you won the chase, but the net gain was for the killer, not you.
This is why people mostly side with the killer perspective in the 1v4 argument. for every moment the killer is in a 1v1, there are 3 other players who are largely uncontested. its why the "just pressure gens bro" meme is still alive and well, and why killers are willing to sacrifice 2+ perk slots just to have a possibility of slowing down the game. each individual 1 in the equation gets significantly more powerful when they play to their greatest strength: utilizing their time when the killer cannot afford to directly engage them.
Yeah that's kinda the point mate. You're supposed to always lose the 1v1. Killer is the power role. If you try to balance a 4v1 game around a 1v1 then you completely screw up the balance and the survivor becomes the power role. Predator hunting grounds has done this exact thing and it's a ######### mess.
When engaged in a 1v1 your goal is to buy your team as much time as possible. Not get out unscathed and constantly beat killers in 1v1. Sounds to me like you want 1 person to be able to loop the killer the whole match.
The survivors already have so many advantages with their perks gen times and the fact a killer cant be 4 places at once (even nurse and spirit). Nurses cant even waste time hooking they need to slug everyone for a win.
In my experience people over-generalize how being a part of a SWF means you are guaranteed to do well and when especially against killers who have less counter than others.
SWF are still playing the game like normal, meaning you can still make the same mistakes as in solo, you can still lose sight of where gens are located and cause a 3-gen issue, etc.
Many people will do better because of Reliability. SoloQ survivors aren’t 100% reliable because as an example you can get someone who is an absolute hero and knows HOW the game works, or someone who isn’t a potato but doesn’t understand how the game works so they hesitate to get a save.
You don’t need comms in order to be organized, you just need to become aware. Unfortunately part of that is recognizing how your team starts playing, so if I see an Urban Evasioning Nea who leaves gens at the sound of a heartbeat, there is no way I am going to think she is actually reliable. I would be surprised.
The thing I think needs reworked is the lobby set up for soloQ. They need to add an optional “lobby only” voice chat. They need to allow us to hover over survivors and see their perks. This would slice half of the concern when it comes to wondering how players might play or perform during the match.
as an individual, you are not meant to win as survivor, you need to come together and work as a team to succeed in survivor.
You know why it's so painful for solo survivor? Because the devs give survivors every chance they can to 1v1 the killer. There is no concept of team in survivors because this game caters to survivors so much. You don't need to be that good and you don't need to work with your team to do well as a survivor.
It's the fact that people want to 1v1 the killer that this game is so unbalanced and unfun at higher levels of play. The killer must resort to underhanded tactics in order to win at high levels due to the survivors being so strong at high levels.
I see so many killers and survivors say most red ranks are boosted so which is it? Are they all optimally sound death squads or are most of them bots? You can't have both and from my experiences most of them are potatoes and one or two survivors can literally win matches for the killer by playing so bad their team can't recover from it, I don't care how good you are at the game if you have bad teammates you will lose as a survivor
High ranks is flooded with bad survivors. Sure you will come across it sometimes definitely not all.
So you as re telling me even if the killer is being outplayed. Even if the killer is losing mindgames they should still win a chase? Im not saying the survivor should win the chase easily, but if the killer is losing the chase why do they deserve the anyways?
Yes that is obvious you want to buy as much time as possible. Nobody said that we want to loop and never be hit or win chases guarenteed. I also never said I want 5 gen chases all the time I do want though is a fair chance to extend my chases through skillful decisions but some killers (slinger) ignore that.
Sorry you right about that lol.
Yes. In fact that's basically how it is now. Bad killers can still eventually win the chase even though it might take them the entire match. And that's how it should be. Even bad killers should at the very least average one kill a match as to not be discouraged. And that's how powerful a killer should be. Beatable as a team, difficult to beat solo. You have to remember it's about buying your team time. If you make it so survivors can win chases then you've made killers significantly weaker. Chases for survivors are about lasting as long as possible, not winning them. Otherwise killer would definitely not be a power role if it can be beaten in a 1v1. The 4 is supposed to be equal to the 1.
Nobody said y ou were supposed to be able to win the game solo. That's also pretty obvious you need to come together because well 5 generators.
"You know why it's so painful for solo survivor ? Because devs give survivors eb every chance they can get to 1v1 killer."
This makes no sense it litterally contradicts its self. If this were true solo wouldnt be as problematic as it's now and killers wouldnt get as many 4ks as they do now. You do need to work with your team because you cant win a 1v3 from 5 gen. Maybe 2 or maybe even 3 but definitely not 5 gen you need teamwork.
I want to be able to have chases I can extend due to my skill us that so wrong? It's the interaction of the survivor but apparently I should be going down in 20 seconds or it's not good enough? The game is way more balanced than it has be and killers are getting buffed every patch so more balance is coming.
Yes a killer will eventually kill you if there are no resources but I am talking about having them. Bad killers should not be given 1 kills if they are bad. You are punishing good players and trying to spoon feed baby killers. They have low ranks (when matchmakings working) to get kills.
You know those escape boldness points clearly escaping the chase is intended.
I'm gonna leave it at that because like I said why reward points for escaping chases if it's not supposed to happen lol.
An m1 killer's "mindgames" are completely dependent on the survivor and are the same things survivors have seen over and over. They're a joke. I would call what survivors can do especially with linking different loops actual mindgames.
An experienced killer can try attempting or bluffing a mindgame but again it's on the survivor to panic and even then a good number of times it just results in an early pallet drop rather than a hit. That's not even considering the filler loops where the survivor can just see you.
It's not gamebreaking because m1 killers can usually get hits outside of loops anyway Eg: Stealth killers.
I'll agree that some killers are unfair eg: DS and spirit but lets not pretend that an m1 killer vs survivor is the model that the devs should be basing their game around.
in way survivor are the power role
same thing killing dbd is also keeping it alive SWF killer a mess solo are mess swf brake the game.
Even m1 killers have powers to help with their m1. Trapper can always have a trap used to zone away from loops which can end up as a free hit. Red stain mindgames at jungle gyms while not guaranteeing a hit can get you to get an extremely strong pallet.
Filler pallets still have ways to either get it down early or use your power. Wraith can use his unlock speed to potentially swing and force it down with a hit.
M1 killer vs survivor is not intended but m1 killers with powers are.
its about whoever is better in chase will win that chase and having map pressure as well to make sure splitting gens doesnt work
It's not that solos can't be efficient or play smart. The players just often choose not to. The game shouldn't be balanced around players refusing to even try to play optimally.
Players straight up don't do gens, take no teammate info perks like Kindred, bomb hooks when they're injured and on death hook, and then say solo is too weak.
The game isn't that hard. The person on death hook shouldn't be going for saves. That immersed player who hasn't been seen by the killer needs to do it. I don't really understand why the decision making in solo is often so poor, but it's no justification to nerf killers.
Ok I do have a question though why should a killer that’s good in those situations be punished? Wouldn’t it help to just help solo with some buffs?
Not really, good predators can easily beat 4 mans, herr are some tips
Learn reinforcement spawn location and trap it,
Use ranged weapons instead of melee
Always stay on the move so they can't light you up
Stayed cloaked
Use your target identification at the start of the match to find people
I can go on and on but predator is pretty balanced at the moment, you just can't pick berserker+ combistick and expect to win
You really don't play that game much do you. With the right loadout a single person can kill predator in 3 seconds flat. That's not balanced. Most people that have played the game extensively will tell you it is far from balanced. But that's not what this topic is about so I'm not going deep into this conversation. So I'll leave you with this. Play a match as predator against a FT that aren't complete noobs. Then come back and tell me it's balanced when you get your mask 3 shotted off and hunted down by the fireteam.
You really don't play that game much do you. Most people that have played the game extensively will tell you the game is fireteam sided and there's next to nothing a predator can do. Best they can do is bunny hop with the bow. Nothing else or else they'll die in mere seconds. But this isn't what this topic is about so I won't go deep into that conversation. So I'll leave you with this. Go play a handful of matches as predator against a fireteam that aren't noobs then you'll see how broken it is.
most of them are really bad, but people seem to think they only verse swfs and death squads and use that as an excuse to justify them losing, but if you take a step back you will see that almost all players in red ranks including a lot of swfs are actually pretty dumb
thats your issue, you are getting shot, keep yourself far away since aiming at a cloaked predator in the trees is hard, and don't say i don't play much, i played at a time where a dude could chase you down with scout and kill you by themselves, im telling you this is no where near how unbalanced it was back in april. Hell i remember that old meta because people didn't know how to play, but people learned and thats why you never see berserker, stay out of LOS until you are certain you are getting a kill and won't go into second wind. But its cool though if you on the forums on that game my name is Predator2 just message me
ok what the actual heck, imma keep it short but why tf did they give the fireteams counters to everything the predator has? he is supposed to be the power role but now he is only strong against babies ######### illfonic
I’d take nurse off that list. Unless the nurse is actually insane and god tier, there are many ways to prevent going down to one and last for minutes in chase.
The only killers you will truly feel frustrated with because there’s nothing more you can do are low tier ones, which btw are slowly being eliminated and buffed. Any time you loose with a mid-high tier you can usually watch over your gameplay and notice many mistakes and ways to improve your gameplay. I hate how ppl jump to conclusions when they can’t win a game or two.
The same can be said for literally any killer, so why even bother saying it at all.
As someone who has been solo queue for 4 years, I can say I proudly have never swf. Mostly cause my friends are smart and stay away from DBD and it's toxic community but also cause I try to better myself as a survivor and solo queue is more challenging. Its rough a lot and honestly sometimes I have to put down the game, but I know if makes me a better survivor and so I keep going. I get invites all the time from swf groups saying there's a spot open for me after many trials cause I can equally do gens, distract and run killer, and do side objectives like bones or chest. I always decline the invites cause even though sometimes I'd love an easy game, I know it wouldnt be fun or fair for the killer (I also play killer so I understand).
Any killer on that list or in general? Nurse has far more counterplay than spirit, deathslinger, pp head and freddy.
And sometimes its my blendette ass sitting on the gen while a killer loops a survivor 2 meters away and not looking.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the complaints are killers inflicted with oblivious themselves, though i may be a bit skewed being someone who tracks survivors by their breathing when they're hiding.
... Okay then.
Been there. Generator repair noises: Exist.
Killers: "Imma ignore that!"
Explain how nurse doesn't have counterplay.
Toooold you. Wait till you discover some of the disgusting loadouts. LMG is a personal favourite of mine. You'll see when you use it on an unsuspecting predator claiming. ;)
Using breathing is a great way I started listening and it makes the survivors very obvious.
i use it in my pred killer build on fireteam but with support, thick skin and using self revive, syringe and a med kit its kinda op
If the game was actually a team of 4 vs 1 the survivor teams scoring would be connected it isn't, the fact that it is individual scoring makes it so the game is 1 vs 3 vs 1 so with that in mind. yes 1vs1 needs to be where the survivor has just as much chance to win in chases as the killers do. either that is the case or they need to rework the scoring side on the survivors so its a team score not individual score.
Judging by your account, you haven't been here long.
Bravo! Very well said and spot on!