So manna braid is an issue
Like, why give any killer basically a perk as singular addon? Huntress has so many balancing issues.
You have basically NOED as an addon. You also have STBFL as an addon. On a killer thats already theoretically an infinite range M1.
I think this game can be summed up in 1 sentence: Nerf huntress reload/instadown addons, nerf freddy, nerf spirit, buff/rework bubba, buff pig's dash addons.
Comments
Imo the only thing thats wrong with yoyr post is huntress only thing that needs to be change is a range for iri head
Why nerf Freddy or Spirit? Both have counter play.
2 things... Perks and addons that work similarly is a pretty common thing and not something limited to Huntress (or even killers). Secondly, an addon offering an 8% boost to windup can hardly be compared to STBFL.
Yeah, and her quickload addons too. Just manna braid alone leaves for 2 hits before STBFL can have 2 hits. Without being at risk of losing speed either.
I mean, imagine Wraith having an addon that allows him to hit while cloaked. Or Deathslinger's reload speed being as fast as Huntress wind up time. Or trapper being able to instadown people who have touched a trap.
Yeah, genrushing is literally the only counterplay you can have. But you cant really call that counter play.
Spirit issues:
Freddy issues:
Spirit counters:
Walking
Freddy counters:
Waking up
Its not an 8% boost, it might not be intended, but its at least 20% in practice. And yeah, some killers have a bad version of a certain perk, but they never rival the perk itself.
Even 20% (assuming your right, which I dont think so) isnt what STBFL gives you. STBFL speeds up the animation after the attack, so it would make more sense to compare it to Huntress's cooldown addons like oak haft rather than addons that increase windup.
Spirit counters countered:
Breathing is audible, a decent spirit can hear you breathe. Let alone that when injured, you are audible unless using iron will, which, again, spirits use stridor for a reason, so you're still audible.
Freddy counters countered:
Waking up can only be done by going to the opposite side of the map, or failing a skillcheck, or even if you're lucky, someone who is still awake. But again, not really a counter as you fall asleep again relatively quickly after waking up, unless you've been hooked. Being hooked is literally the best counter to freddy's power.
By the time you can walk to the opposite side of the map, Freddy can teleport twice. The only way of countering a strategic Freddy teleport is by rushing the gens that are strategic, however, as a killer, Freddy will try being present to all those gens.
Perkless and addonless, Freddy can be countered by waking up, yeah. But start including 1 perk or 1 addon, and you have a problem.
Kinda, but faster wind up gives a straighter line much faster, which is what a huntress is all about. If wind up is faster, then time inbetween long distance hits are faster. Meaning that if she hits a basic attack and follows that up by a hatchet, she'll be able to throw a hatchet before your speedboost is done. While with STBFL you'd at least are required to catch up.
Most killers get add-ons that have effects similar to perks. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Sure, but you can also do that the other way around. Often times when I'm chucking a hatchet at someone by a window, they'll try to swerve to avoid getting hit rather than taking the vault right away. If I hit someone with the hatchet first, often times having those cooldown addons (which is what STBFL does for melee) is the difference between me grabbing them when they inevitably vault that window...or not.
Sidenote... Typically people try to AVOID meleeing as Huntress when they can hit someone with a melee range hatchet anyway
OH MY GOD I CALLED IT!
I was joking when I said that someone will make a thread complaining about Huntress, and yet here it is.
Its not machine gun huntress, which was insanely ridiculous, but it is still ridiculous. And no, its not that I lost against a huntress, I've lost against many huntresses of different skills and tactics(including russian slug campers with ebony mori, and everyone here knows how annoying those are). No, I mean the fact that 1 singular addon allows a killer to have 2 hits where not a single other killer could is bs. The reason I compare it to STBFL is because of cooldown between hits. I've faced an amazing huntress(2k hours easily, last time his steamname was just CC, got utterly destroyed to the point of barely getting a black pip) who could hit a fly from the opposite side from the map if that fly had a 1 second aura, and even he refuses to use wind up addons because it feels too cheap and too easy to the point where he rather uses iriheads because at least those take time to charge inbetween shots.
And again, we're talking % in a game where the amount doesnt really convert into practice, one time its time based, other time its progress based, and another time its a mixture of both(which is why perks and addons that increase healing speed stack so weirdly). Having 20% applied in one case can have a flat 20%, but then you have an 80% thats actually 45%, or a 15% thats actually just a 5 second reduction that ranges from 10-20%. As far as testing went, time-wise, the reduction is not 8%. The time between fully charged hatchets was more like 16%.
As for why I compared it to STBFL, the whole schtick of STBFL is being able to land hits faster. A huntress with manna alone can apply a second hit to a survivor before a killer with STBFL can, because hatchets already have a shorter cooldown than basic attacks in the first place.
"I don't see how 20% increase in speed to charging up a hatchet is even equivalent to a Wraith being able to attack while cloaked"
Its essentially seeking a comparison between abilities. Besides that, technically, we already have a wraith that is able to attack while being cloaked, but we call her Spirit, and there are also a ton of issues with that. There is a reason why Huntress, Spirit and Freddy mains are disliked, with the exception of some people. Their addons and main ability(excluding huntress) are simply too strong for the current meta. There are a ton of addons that a killer might need to get the upperhand in some cases. Trapper might need bloody coils when he suspects an SWF team with OoO, Wraith might need all seeing blood and Pig might need Amanda's letter when they see a group of blendettes, but never is there a case where a huntress would need a higher wind up speed. It's basically an addon meant to help new huntresses throw more hatchets in a game to learn how to aim, but it's an addon that ends up getting too strong on a huntress that can already aim. Especially when you dont know you're gonna face a huntress. Facing a huntress already requires a different playing style, facing a decent huntress and you need to drop pallets before the huntress can get an angle to gain distance, allowing a huntress to wind up much later than she originally would need to, to get a fully charged hatchet simply is too strong unless the team knows they're facing a huntress. Considering you cant swap out perks after finding out what killer you face, that is a problem.
So TL;DR
Not mad that I lost against a huntress, I've had harder games against much more skilled huntresses who didnt need to rely on faster hatchet throws. Huntress already has a strong anti-looping skill and is already strong on deadzones(to the point where you literally need urban evasion to be effectively hiding behind objects, but again, cant change perks after the match begun). Having less time inbetween throws, while most maps no longer have proper loops against a huntress, because a proper loop against a huntress is a loop that is too strong for all killers that are not a huntress, is simply too much.
I mean, I can also write a rant on what is wrong with every killer ability, killer perk, survivor perks and survivor items, but outside huntress, spirit and freddy, the only contestors are ebony mori's and SWF's with rainbow map and skeleton keys. I play both survivor and killer, and I avoid spirit and freddy like the plague unless I need a challenge done that I can farm on them. I also stopped playing huntress quite quickly because it got real easy really fast without using addons that affect hatchet time or damage. When the only practical counter to something is specific perks or a terrible player playing the killer, its not balanced. Quick and Quiet didnt have a practical counter other than Whispers back in the day, DS didnt have a practical counter other than Mori back in the day, BL untill recently didnt really have a real counter when dropping other than practically being a skillless Sprintburst with a permanent sound reduction while falling from heights, making Hawkins originally extremely survivor sided if people used BL, yet Hawkins literally was the reason to change BL, as otherwise, it didnt have many maps where it was too strong(still strong on Haddonfield, but not game-changing strong). And yeah, Manna and Iri head for huntress, fall under the catagory of changing the outcome of games single handedly. And a single addon shouldnt be able to change a game that much without having any negative side-effect. I already think that all-seeing blood from wraith needs a negative side effect(I mean, Amanda's letter is literally the same, and it has massive negative impact on her ability even though she's 1/3rd the speed of wraith, so why no negative side effects on wraith's addon?)
This game just needs a massive restructure on the killer side. Which means some killers need some specific nerfs where others need a bit of a buff, just having an overall more consistent base gameplay, where survivors and killers without perks and addons should have about equal chances of winning. Right now, Huntress, Spirit and Freddy do not fit the position of facing perkless survivors and having equal chances. All other killers do, except those 3. And because Huntress doesnt really have perks that would compliment her ability other than aura readings, thats kinda fine, but she shouldnt have addons that shift the edge over that its practically impossible.
And yes, this is a lot of ranting, but you kinda called it upon yourself by assuming I got salty because I lost. No, I didnt. I got pissed off because someone was capable of being a massive ######### because of a singular addon. If anyone can abuse a single perk or addon to the point of being an ultra #########, then there is a problem with the perk or addon. I mean, imagine having a 4 man SWF with an OoO user while playing trapper and having all your traps be pointless unless you tunnel the OoO user, which is being shadowed by someone with a flashlight constantly. Then yeah, you would rightfully complain about OoO, because there was no way for you to practically counter it.
Huntress has her issues, deal with it. Her base mechanics are fine, skill based and requiring a different playstyle to the point where if you remove all perks, addons and items, she'll have the upperhand, but in a game where perks, addons and items arent removed, thats fine. However, she has addons that are currently too strong for the current meta. Her windup got nerfed from 10% to 8% because 10% was too strong(altho, its progression based, not timebased, which doesnt make it a flat 8% in the first place, but whatever), but 2% reduction is simply not enough. I mean, imagine a key being nerfed by having the hatch be open for 5 less seconds. Yeah, 19 seconds open is an improvement from 24 seconds, but 19 seconds is still enough to have 20 hypothetical survivors escape the game(1 per second, and after the 19th, the hatch would stay open for the final survivor). Would you really be happy with that 5 second nerf? Would you really stop complaining about key's being too strong for that?
I mean, im not even talking about iri heads yet. Altho, those are already getting nerfed.
Freddys counter is to drop the pallet early and to wake up. You dont have to like it, but thats the counter.
There is a big difference between having a similar effect, and a practical effect that essentially is a replacement for a perk. Freddy is the worst offender to that. Technically Wraith has addons that replace fire up and brutal strenght, but those are cases of very ######### perks that would otherwise be a waste of a perkslot and he can only do so while in a state where he is unable to attack survivors. Having an addon that can replace/compliment a ######### perk is one thing, having addons that do the same to good/great perks are a problem for game balance. Because you'd essentially give a killer 5-6 perk slots that can be filled with good/great perks.
Why do you think Styptic and Syringe got nerfed? Because they were essentially an extra perk. Brand New Part and Toolboxes got massively nerfed because they essentially were an extra perk. All medkits got reduced self healing because they were essentially a better form of selfcare.
Except that when I play Freddy, anyone dropping a pallet is doomed to recieve a hit. And I am not an amazing killer, but even I know that placing down snares on a strong loop before a pallet is dropped is a must.
As for waking up, thats only temporary and forces you to go across the map, because the clock that can wake you up ALWAYS spawns as far from your current location as possible. The only other options are missing a skillcheck, except that freddy has an addon preventing that, and being woken up by someone else who also is awake, which is only really feasable in an SWF set-up, because playing with randoms, that's like expecting them to save you from a hook before you enter the second hookstage(which, is high expectations if you've seen the average random survivor).
Then you also have the issue of fake pallets, that literally means you need to drop all the pallets while you're awake, ruining any future looping, to prevent a fake pallet, or memorizing the whole goddanm map everytime it generates before you get chased, because once chased, you're a free down for Freddy. So no, its not a counter. Its only a temporary delay that is extremely finite. Because there are only 3-4 strong pallets at most in a game, all other pallets are actually in Freddy's favor as you would definitely be forced to vault the pallet and Freddy can reach the opposite side before you're able to vault back.
Its not a practical counter. Just because it works on paper has no effect on how it works in practice. On paper, spirit is a great idea: a soundbased killer in a game where most killers use visuals. In practice: the entire meta changed to the point where killers listen to breathing and floorboards creaking, making sneaking around even harder and Spirit practically impossible to escape because they literally hear where you are.
As Billy or LF you have NOED without add-ons. I don't see the problem here.
Sure, if you are heavily disabled and not able to move behind any cover it's super op. Just like bubba's chainsaw.
Except the green medkit is made for self-healing lol.
Idk man 😂 i never have that much trouble with freddy. Hes a tough killer for sure but he is coubterable and beatable. Me and 2 other people escaped from one today 🤷♂️ you just drop the pallet early. I do it all the time
You're not supposed to know when she is phasing. It's by design.
Also if you play Huntress you'd know that hafts>wind up and are actually how you can land hatchets and follow it up with an m1 quickly. Wind up add-ons don't actually make it faster to swing after you throw a hatchet.
Not back in the day, they had to make 1 for self healing obviously, and even then, its only a single heal, when back in the day, you could get at least 3 heals from a green medkit. As for dodging behind object, no, even when crouching behind an object in front of her directly inbetween you and her, a decent huntress can still hit you. A myers or ghostface cannot get stalk from it, but a huntress can get a hit from it. The only practical way of dodging a huntress is either having so many trees that she'll never have a direct line of sight, or few enough trees so you can easily sidestep, except, that there is only 1 map where trees are common enough to use that and maps where that isnt the case, you have tons of other objects you run into, meaning you'd have to look ahead for objects and behind you to see where huntress is aiming at.
Which isnt a problem at her base charge speed, as you have just enough time to look forward and backward inbetween shots, but with the reduction, there is not. Meaning you gotta get lucky on RNG for object spawning or memorize the ######### map before you get in a chase.
Then you've either been facing someone who plays Freddy to ######### around, or you've been facing someone who doesnt understand Freddy's strengths. When I screw around with Freddy, yeah, 1-3 people will escape. If I try a tiny bit with Freddy, 1-2 people escape. If I try decent with Freddy, 1 person escapes because I let them escape. Have any person try hard with Freddy, and escape is impossible unless you know its gonna be a Freddy or for whatever reason are running Calm Spirit and OoO.
I mained Freddy for awhile and still occasionally lost to good teams. Hes a potato masher for sure but hes not uncounterable. Im a r1 survivor so i play against plenty of freddys and while yes hes one of the hardest killers to go against hes not impossible.
Man, that reminds me of the actual machine gun huntress build of old. Back when tinkerer gave a flat percentage boost to percentage based add ons. Now THAT was crazy.
Rest in peace baby, wish you were here.
On its own, thats fine, however, considering her passive phasing breaks loops, her active phasing breaks loops, her active phasing beats Nurse's teleport AND beats Wraith's cloaked movementspeed. It's a bit too much to also make people inside the TR unaware that she is phasing in the first place. There is too little in game to counter her.
Just because its by design doesnt make it good design. If her phasing speed was 115% instead of 176%, or even 125%, then it would be much more balanced than she is right now.
yeah, but just because an old build was much more insane than it is now, doesnt excuse current day implementations. I mean, people complain that generator speeds need nerfing, well, that reminds me of the old BNP where 4 people brought a toolbox and 4 gens were done within 5 seconds of the match. Does the old BNP excuse current day gen speeds?
So...
What's wrong with Manna Braid?
I am a r1 survivor AND killer, and I can assure you that almost all r1 Freddies are just ######### around. Using the weakest addons, perks that dont really compliment Freddy's strenghts and at best run Noed just to get a salty response. Because thats literally been every Freddy player I've faced against. Just because most killers play Freddy fairly, doesnt mean he doesnt need nerfing.
In short: nerfing it from 10% to 8% barely left an impact, most very skilled huntresses avoid it because its too easy to get hits and it leaves otherwise relatively unskilled huntresses, who can aim(I mean, that's literally 5 games of huntress to get adjusted to her aim) still getting a hit simply because the cooldown is fast enough to not be able to keep surroundings in check while also being forced to look backwards to see where the killer is aiming.
Im r1 killer and survivor too. Im sorry youve had such a rough go with freddy but nothing youre saying justifies a nerf. Hes counterable. Drop the pallet early, wake yourself up whenever possible and dont make stupid mistales during the match 🤷♂️
All it does is cooldown between throws right?
The killer's going against 16 perks and 4 items, I'd just like to point that out.
Nurse has add-ons that mimic her perks, except Thana. Doc has all sorts of effects that aren't too different from perks. Myers has Dead Rabbit and aura reading add-ons. That's just to name a few. And how exactly do braids mimic a perk effect? No perk affects hatchet windup. It specifically affects the killer's power which is what add-ons should do.
oh boy, a list to go through!
Spirit:
1) there is a warning sound. and her faking the phase isnt gonns help her a lot unless you start running at her. you can also check with a flashlight - and i believe there is a slight clue that reveals when she phases? dunno if that one is intended, ive heard of its existance but i myself never really went out of my way to check.
2) leave the terror radius then. in general, leave the tile and she will be forced to phase after you - then backtrack a bit and she is gonna be utterly confused. always assume she is phasing and play accordingly.
3) thats nothing she can control - she cant een see when she has passive phasing herself. if she passively phases at just the needed time to trick you at a loop, thats really just bad luck at that point.
4) the woosh is 24m, like her Terror Radius. and, just like her, you can track the footsteps to learn her position (works especially well on indoor maps)
5) Iron Will - and she is faster than Wraith. also "no downsides" is just going to ignore the fact that she can literally not see you? another thing: do you know why no one plays Nurse these days, even though she is easily the best killer in the game? its because she has a stun after using her power - combined with the reload time of her blinks it just makes her very unfun to play. And its not like Spirit could just use her power like Billy does - she does have a cooldown on it.
6) you still can. though, its definitely a lot harder when the spirit is decent, ill agree on this one.
=> Spirit is a big mindgame
Freddy:
1) false. 1) the Add On slow down doesnt even get close to full stacks Dying Light; 2) it ONLY applies to sleeping survivors. just stay awake.
2) his teleport cooldown is 90 seconds when everyone is awake. and even when all 4 are asleep, the cooldown is still 36 seconds - stay awake.
3) agreed. his snares basically take away clowns only reason of existing - plus, unlike clown, he can spam them during a chase all the time without having to ever reload. to avoid them, stop looping him on the same tile and run around different tiles. the snares arent active immediately after placement and he cant throw them ahead of you like clown could. or, ya know, stay awake.
4) he cant use them during chases though - he is forced to prepare a setup prior to the chase. remember which pallets are real and which have been used already. also: stay awake - and then destroy his setup when you did fall asleep.
5) this is simply false. every killer in the game has the exact same lunge range.
=> Freddy is only good when you are asleep
I'm just gonna throw in two names for you: ScottJund and Umbra. Both are decent huntress players that know exactly where they are able to throw a hatchet. I'm pretty sure your counterplay against huntress will get better if you watch some of their guides and videos.
Dude Spirit is fine. You can counter her.
You're not supposed to know that she is phasing. When you see her stand still assume she is both phasing and standing still, then do whatever it is you can do that would counter both at the same time.
Her passive phasing is nothing special. She is still a 110 killer, just don't assume anything. Running from one tile to the next is more effective than staying at a tile and looping her. Drop pallets early and use them as windows, because windows are strong against her. If you loop her like a normal killer you will often get hit because of it.
Also no, her powers in no way is better than Nurse. Nurse can straight up teleport through stuff, Spirit is a 110 killer she still has to walk to places, even in phase.
But a single killer perk tends to be as strong as 4 killer perks. Iron Grasp or Agitation alone can easily beat boil over, flip flop, breakout and saboteur combined, for example.
Doc's addons are very weak version of perks at best. The only thing is that if someone has madness 3 and is downed, you get a free deerstalker, which is a very weak perk.
As for mimicking, Braid mimicks stbfl because for huntress her m2 is her m1 essentially. Even Billy(who I am also quite outspoken about with his insta rev addons), sometimes needs his m1. Huntress never needs her m1 at all. So a significant cooldown on her m2 is essentially a cooldown on her m1.
Spirit:
=> Spirit is no mindgame, she literally is RNG while passive phasing and impossible to escape from while phasing. The only literal counter to spirit phasing is to wait at a pallet and go for the stun.
Freddy:
=>Freddy is extremely good while you are asleep, and has decent enough pressure to deal with survivors who stay awake.
I mean, you are forced to constantly reveal yourself to Freddy if you want to stay awake, because you cant be woken up untill you fall asleep. If waking up didnt rely on giving away your location, then yeah, freddy would be a lot weaker than he is right now.
And just because there is some counterplay, doesnt mean a killer doesnt need a nerf. Especially when a killer has RNG to them.
Like I said, I also played against those killers, and again, like I said, I dont mind playing against people who know exactly where their hatchets end up. I can decently counterplay a huntress like that, but the issue in those games is that my teammates do not, meaning it ends up being a hatchgame. And I dont mind those games. However, to gain distance, you sometimes need to take a hit, if a huntress can fully charge a hatchet before your boost is over, there isnt really any distance you can gain unless there happens to be a tree you can hide behind, or a wall, and its kinda a 50/50 shot on whether you'll be downed.
Her phase is literally 176%, only her passive phase is 110%, and the issue is that mindgaming is what allows for looping. Burning pallets everywhere, does not. A decent spirit will know a strong pallet and break it, then phase to catch up, without having any negative side effects. Even wraith is forced to slow down when catching up. If spirit was forced into a prolonged cooldown after a phase attack, then it would at least have a negative side effect to constantly phasing.
If she stops to break the pallet that gives you a chance to hide and/or make it to the next tile very easily unless she has MDR.
She is a 110 killer you were talking about passive phase. If she phases she can't see you and if you are careful she will have a harder time tracking your via sound or grass moving.
She's not that hard to beat. Just don't make stupid moves and think about what she can and can't do. You can indeed counter play a Spirit.
There's too much for me to read between all the replies for how much I care about the topic, but it's just crazy how Huntress is singled out for her addon while there's plenty of killers that have addons that are much more annoying than manna braid.
Sorry....just stay awake.
I'm sorry, I had to lol at that.
What a joke.
Iri addon shouldnt stack with belts, change my mind
This is extremely helpful, thank you.
I main Huntress and I had no idea, I honestly just use More Hatchet Addons.
So I'm just going to throw this in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFUwKnlHEgI
it's a little roughly edited but hopefully it shows the addons effect clear enough,
The one on the right side, middle.
What addons are those?
Those four survivors perks you listed are all pretty crappy anyway.
Doc can get constant tracking, difficult skill checks, aura reading when tiering up, and smaller/bigger terror radius.
The argument that the add-on gives huntress an extra perk doesn't really work. You cannot use STBFL to reduce wind up, nor you use any perk to do that for that matter. It's not a free perk, it's an add-on to her power. The effect is exclusive to her power.