Keys and Moris are not comparable.
I often see Killer Mains make the argument of, “if survivors can have keys! Then killers can have Moris!”
but those two aren’t comparable like at all. Killing survivors is the killers objective - that is a fact, as killer, you’re hoping to kill all the survivors in the game. As survivor, your objective is to do gens.
Keys are highly situational to begin with - you’re not even guaranteed to get to a stage where hatch spawns for the player to use the key. A mori - whilst admittedly needing to be “unlocked”, is far quicker to use within a match than a hatch is. You can get a mori kill before 2 gens are done.
Keys aren’t even commonly ran by survivors - in my hundred of games as survivor, I’ve only escaped using a key probably 5 or so times. As a killer - in my hundreds of games, I’ve only ran into two games where a key was actually used in game.
Moris can be achieved in-game quicker and end the game quicker - they don’t take up a necessary spot in the kit as they come as an offering. With a key, you have to wait till end-game essentially to use the item, which is a part of the game that you’re not even guaranteed to reach - on top of the fact that it takes up an item slot.
these are not comparable at all. I hate seeing the argument that they are when they’re blatantly not
Comments
Seems like you're the blind one here, not me lmao
Can i just mention, my boyfriend was the last survivor, and the oni had a devour hope that he essentially camped (It was in the middle and in the open so he could easily see if someone was working on it) and he got all the way up to mori by tunneling. My boyfriend was downed and he crawled all the way to the corner of killer shack so the oni couldn't see his mori, so the oni picked him up and moved him, but he crawled to the gen in the middle to block the view again. lol, it was that back and forth until the oni got to see his mori which was so funny.
How are second chance perks sad to use? A survivor has no chance in a matchup against a killer.
If a survivor outruns you despite bloodlust, lunging and mindgame, then you're playing with people out of your skill range.
Keys should never be in chests? then the rarity of moris should be higher.
Chances of getting a mori in the bloodweb is higher than getting a key:
Survivor Bloodwebs have - Perks, Addons, Offerings, Items
Killer Bloodwebs have - Addons, Offerings, Perks.
Searching a chest doesn't even guarantee a key, takes time away from objective and can leave a survivor vulnerable when they are searching. Keys are used in end-game situations, and Moris can be used within the first minute of the match - and it achieves the killer's objective of getting a kill, finding a key contributes nothing to objective and it's not guaranteed that the survivor will be in a situation to use a key - whether to making it to the point where hatch spawns or even being happy with their ingame contributes to look for hatch and escape early.
I'm not going to make an argument for whether they're comparable or not, but what I will say is I believe it's wrong that the survivors' objective is just to "do generators." The killer's job is to kill, that we can agree on, but the survivors' objective in the end is to escape.
I'm convinced you're either trolling or so heavily biased that you're blind on what the word balance means.
Killers have perks that can prevent and deny the survivors to even complete their objective. Keys are even objective locked/survivor locked until an end-game situation.
The only time that keys and moris would be comparable is if bringing a key completed one gen at the start of the match - just like how a killer can kill within the first minute of a match - before even one gen is done. :)
Moris are way worse than keys because they kill the fun for 4 people, whereas the key only kills the fun for 1 person.
(sarcasm, obviously)
Killers have perks that can passively decrease gen progress to zero, have perks that allow them to see survivors behind walls, perks that can give them instant knockdown, or perks that even deny the survivor of doing objective. That is not even mentioning the fact that some killers have instant knockdown abilities already - on top of addons and if killers dont have instant knockdown, some have addons to make their abilities instant knockdowns.
Most survivor perks also only impact the experience of said survivor. Self-care, Adrenaline, Unbreakable etc are perks that the survivor can only use on themselves. Decisive, Deliverance, etc can only be used once and in certain situations (Things like decisive can also be missed by the survivor). Exhaustion perks require the survivor to escape from killer for them to get rid of exhaustion and even use the perks again. Most killer perks don't have such disadvantages.
Items are 'mechanically' the equivalent of a killer power, except they have a resource meter, and usually aren't too good without addons to give items reusable purpose.
Mori is the ONLY offering that gives an extra ability to the killer and that's to end chases and the game nearly immediately. Survivors don't have an offering that gives them an EXTRA ability on top of their kit. So why should killers?
It may not be balanced, but its okey to use it. Same as for Keys. Not balanced but okey to use.
No, survivor objective is to do gens. Escaping without doing gens isn't going to give you a good score. You can escape, having nothing done, and the game will punish you by giving you a low score and running the risk of de-pipping. The killer doesn't get punished for getting kills.
Tell that to me the day that a survivor can safety pip just by escaping :)
If i kill straight away yes, I lose points, you are right there. Thats why only toxic survivours gets the first hook mori in my book. If i want to mori i usually wait the 2. hook and not lose that much point.
Also i make up the blood points via, chasing,hitting and keeping the gens.
I rarely use mori, but when i use it i dont see a problem with them, never had a complain as well in post match chat.
"A survivor can't do gens in even two different ways, there's only one way to do a generator."
False. You have a lot of perks, and tool boxes with addons to increase the way how gens done.
Depending what tools you bring, how many of you work on gens, with what perks gen speed also changes.
Also map provides enough tools to loop the killer for the gens.
Had a game where 1 chase even tho didnt lasted a long time maybe around 40 sec give or take cost 3 gens because tool boxes. And other times even after a whole minute not a single gen pop.
"How are second chance perks sad to use? A survivor has no chance in a matchup against a killer.
If a survivor outruns you despite bloodlust, lunging and mindgame, then you're playing with people out of your skill range."
Let me rephrase that, it sad to rely on second chance perks instead of actualy trying.
Back in the old days there was no DS,BT,DH and Unbreakable. And guess what? Survivours survived and got out.
And now everyone cry about not being able to use their second chances. Thats just sad.
I've never felt frustrated or pressured by the fact that one survivor runs a key or finds one in a match. Keys have a lot of counter-play. Franklins, killing the survivor, patrolling hatch.
What counter do Moris have?
No. They decrease the time that a generator can take, but they don't change the way that one does generators. you still have to sit there, wait for skill checks and possibly look out for killers sneaking up on you.
Looping isn't doing gens.
How is a survivor meant to try against someone that is faster than them, has priority hit (As in, vaulting can be very unsafe because the game is biased towards killer and will let killer have vault hits even if the survivor has made it over the vault), has abilities that can close distance or deny escape, etc? Or the fact that some killers have (or have the possibility) of having instant knockdown abilities?
Survivors got out back then, but back then was a different game in general. The game was made/'balanced' around the absence of these perks. That is not the game we are playing in today.
Chance perks are the only thing that a survivor can have in their sleeve to give them a fleeting chance of 'winning'. Decisive can be easily countered by leaving the survivor on the ground and pursuing another in close proximity, with Borrowed Time - you go for the other survivor which puts more pressure generally by having two injured survivors than one. Dead Hard is actually really broken at the moment and a waste of a perk slot. Unbreakable literally is only usable if the killer is attempting to slug, and at that point unbreakable is a one time use with the chance of the survivor not being picked up.
A lot of second chance perks are situational. If having those second hand perks is sad, then it's sad that a killer can have an instant knockdown ability, addons that can make their ability instants, or bringing a mori to end game before all the gens are even done.
Brand new part, Object of obsession, maps, keys with addons to see killer, Alert.
They addons/items and perks gives information on where the killer is without giving away your position (except OoO), help you locate and destroy so called passively decreasing gen progress perk, which renders the perk useless and makes the killer run 3 out of 4.
Usually killer perks have so much limitation how can ou use them to give Wallhack so lets review a few.
Bitter murmur: Only shows the auras of the survivours NEAR BY the done gen and only shows the survivours aura for 10 sec IF THE LAST gen is done.
A lot of limitations on the perk and time limit.
Myers with the mirror addons: force you to stay in a set tier.
Again limiting the killer movespeed, power and lunge distance to able to use said wall hack.
Ranchor: Only reveals the location of 3 survivours when a gen done, and not aura reading. Also shows the killers aura and not just location for the obsession.
Again its only a little bit of information againts a better info on the obsession
While keys and other perks shows aura of the killer which are better for information.
Its depending on the survivour how the game goes.If they want that key or flashlight in the game and hinders they own objective let them.
Are you really trying to use a pip system that practically everybody knows is garbage to try to say that a survivor's only objective is to "do generators," really?
So the survivor's objective is to hold M1 on something and that's it, and not to make it out the exit gate?
Ummm nah. The killer might kill within the first minute... if the survivor makes mistakes if the survivor refuses to use any perks. If the survivors team willfully unsafe unhook and if survivor fails yet again after the unhook to get away in a chase and if the team doesn't help by body blocks or stuns or flashlights or Sabo... you might get a killer if he's lucky and skilled enough and it's the 3 meta killers with mobility
Any killer is undone completely by basic teamwork... and if you have a meta perk squad lol yeah right. Anyone who advocates for mori nerf feels entitled to more lives.
Nah. You get one life its entirely your fault if you go down. Its entirely your teams fault for not rescuing you properly and then its your fault for going down a second time in order for any mori to work. So yeah its on you bucko
Yes, because the game actively punishes you for not doing enough in a game if you just escape. This is not even in terms of ranking but also bloodpoints that you get in return for the match.
The objective of killers is to kill and survivors to survive (aka escape).
Survivors are completely undone by a killer that pressures and controls the match by going to gens and dictating which ones he will let the survivors do.
I love how a killer can have so many crutches, instant knockdowns, BS addons, easily abusable and unplayable (against) perks and a Mori to top it off, but no, it's the survivor's fault for having to play against someone who is naturally given more resources and perks which generally have less downsides to them and can be more frequently used than the survivor ones.
k lmao
Killing Survivors = high scores, big amount of bloodpoints, pip
Just Escaping = low scores, low blood points, and depip
Survivors don't have to escape to get a good match and essentially win by pipping and getting a large amount of bloodpoints. I don't know what survivor considers an escape with low score, depip and little to no blood points a victory lol. That's why '99-ing' the gate is a popular strategy and survivors usually will try to rescue unless pressured out by killer.
The objectivr is killing and surviving, period. The points are a different subject.
I'm a rank 1 survivor, and plenty of killers bring Moris. Id guesstimate 20%.
They're not because they effectively affect the whole game.
One of the biggest problems this game has is the grinding for things.
If pipping/score/bloodpoints weren't part of what it means to have a victory/good game, then they wouldn't have them in the game. They wouldn't use them to dictate what are good/bad actions, eg. camping reducing your score as killer.
When you go into the match, you're looking for a good game where you can max out everything or get it close to maxed out as humanly possible for the player.
I can't get to escaping UNLESS i do generators, but the fact that i complete generators doesn't mean I will get to escape. Killers don't have to hook a survivor more than once to get the kill, if no one comes to save, then the survivor is dead. The killer is essentially actively killing throughout the game.
Objective and points are 2 different things. If you can't see that then there is no point to continue.
Patrolling the hatch isn’t counterplay and neither is killing the survivor as the key isn’t going anywhere unless they’re using a specific addon. Besides the only way that makes sure you kill this survivor in time before the key can be used is either tunneling or camping which is pretty damn dull counterplay if you ask me. Not to mention that you’re already throwing the game at this point.
Franklins is honestly a joke. I’m sorry but the sound notification as well as the sign popping up at the bottom makes it really easy to realize you dropped your key. Maybe it’s going to be a problem if you have no clue what the maps look like but it’s going to do nothing to someone with experience and that knows their maps.
I suppose some would argue being immersed or being good at looping would be a counter to mories. I don’t think it’d be enough of a counter if it’s even considered one though.
Either way, if you got no problems with keys when playing killer then that’s great for you. I’m just saying that there are those that disagree with you hence why it’s being compared with mories.
'The counters that exist are too dull so they're technically not counters but if you think about it technically just prolonging being downed is counterplay to a game-over ability, don't you think?'
k
Seeing all these mains whine and yell at the other side is funny, I’m not going to share my opinion but I’m a neutral so I’m basically as unbiased as they come...
I think the reason for the comparison is because they both can end the game prematurely for the other party denying a possibility of winning.
I can't tell you how many times I've had situations where two or even three survivors managed to escape whilst I was defending a decent lockdown area. It feels cheap and like you've been robbed
However I also can't tell you how many times I've the killer for a long time and I can reliably handle another Hook only to be immediately mori off after first Hook. Like with the thing above it just feel like you've been robbed.
I don't think either should be removed, they both have their advantages, disadvantages and whatever.
I just think it's stupid that they're compared when they're not the same in the slightest.
'Both end games quicker than intended', yeah, medkit heals you, so its the same as getting healed or bringing self-care. no.. each strat has it's advantages/disadvantages, counter play and etc lol,
Moris takes some effort. Keys not. ######### simple.
Your oppinion would be different if you’d get ppl escaping constantly with random keys you either missed in the lobby or they found in a chest. Can you find moris in chests? No? Is there purple moris that does the same as the pink one just cheaper? No? Or perhaps the killer gets an aura reading with the mori on top of the bs effect? No? Sorry but you’re the blind here or maybe just ignorant. But either way get fun getting moried. If they ever touch them, keys will go as well.
I guess we just disagree. You see it as "punishing" for "not doing enough in a game" but I see it as players being rewarded for doing more. Bare minimums will obviously get the lowest rewards, while higher risk will bring higher rewards. I personally don't think that means automatically that the survivors' main objective is to do all the extra stuff, I think simply that it means the game offers more to do than just the bare minimum of escaping.
Rank still doesn't mean anything really, so that can be dismissed right away. Either way, you want more bloodpoints, do more stuff in the game. That much is obvious, but I don't see what it has to do with the objective of the survivors, which in my opinion, is to escape. I have a feeling I won't be changing your mind on that though.
You're one of the politer people on the topic, and i appreciate that, thanks.
Guess that we're going to have to disagree. Generally, if the game can dictate what is a bad/good action, then i think that score is important in determining if you win or lose that game. I don't so much care about having to die to a killer if i die knowing that I (personally) did enough that match. I hate being able to escape if I on the contrary did barely anything the match. The reason that I see the score as more linked to whether you've won or lost, is because grinding is hugely part of the game, being able to grind and get to a place that I'm comfortable at - whether with perks, addons, items or whatever, means that I feel achieved more than just escaping on low score games, you get me?
They're both cheesy. Get rid of them.
I do, I play regularly to get blood points, I even manage to pip with one kill, and it’s sad because I don’t actually want to rank up my killer, there’s only a few games where I depip
Good thing the Killer is supposed to make the Survivors feel prolonged despair in the match, not just instantly kill them. The Entity feeds on the fear and they work for the Entity. Working as intended.
If you use an ebony mori and merk everyone off their first hook it’s almost guaranteed you’ll depip. Killers are only going to bring a mori if they wanna ruin people’s games. Keys are used to escape early or bait a tunnel while five gens pop because the killer is scared of a hatch escape
No problem! I don't see a point in being rude to people who just want to discuss things.
Lol yeah as killer I can track 4 players and protect 7 gens being at all places at all times while still doing chases hahaha hah
And every tool a killer has beyond m1 is a crutch ? Hahaha hahaha
You are not a clown
You are the entire circus 🎪
both are still cheap things to use
moris being cheap and stronger than keys dont mean keys arent also cheap and strong
If I can with no perks then so can you :)
Moris are early kills, keys are early escapes. A survivors objective is to ESCAPE, gens are merely the tool you use to escape.
Both should be removed, although I do agree where you say that they aren't THAT comparable.
Any good survivor with DS knows to jump in a locker if the killer has a Mori.
It forces them to eat the Decisive Strike and continue the chase, you want an easy win?
WORK FOR IT.
Where's the survivor equivalent to moris?
Can we get an Offering that automatically has a generator finished when survivors spawn?
Can we also have it spawn in the Bloodbweb as frequently as Ebony Moris spawn?
I will trade keys for that.
I mean yeah, Deathslinger deepthroated me more times than I have used a key in my almost 2k hours.
Moris are basically a joke in comparaison, you just have to found the unlucky guy who got farmed off hook to kick him out the game.
SWF are (usually) more aware but thats beside the point.
My opinion as solo survivor - Mori's are kind of awesome. It's a cool animation and beats getting facecamped or tunneled. I can just go into another match right away so whatevs
My opinion as killer - Moris are awesome. It's a cool animation and beats chasing 4 people around and having to hit them twice and hook them up to 3 times for each person within like 5-15 minutes.
My opinion when playing SWF - You shouldna done that, he was just a boy.
I'd like to think they're pretty comparable, because while yes, the killers objective is obviously to kill survivors, the survivors objective is technically to escape. If there were other ways aside from gens that helped reach that goal, then gens would not be the main objective - they'd be half of that.
Yeah, the Mori can be activated quicker, but really so can keys main power if the holder wants the hatch. It's that easy to let your teammates die. Keys can also allow a survivor to see the killer, and I make this point because people who really want, can base an effective build around using that key to it's full use, which killers can't do cause that's basically just a hook build anyway.
Both are objects that are used to reach objective quicker. And you know what? Both will cost you points, most likely. You get less for a mori kill, and you get less points for escaping before gens are done due to less objective points.
A Mori can be highly situational too - it's not always an ebony, you're not always going to have a 4 person Mori. Just like hatch. A lot of killers use their moris too, in my experience, after a second hook if they've got an ebony - something that as a result, essentially would work the same as a fully activated Devour Hope. Bringing a mori in retaliation to a key simply says to me, "you want to end the game quicker? Ok then. But I'll try my best as to not let that happen in your favour."
If the key survivor dies, it's not that hard for the next to pick it up. Presence of a key means possible chance of early escape for any survivor, not just the one who brought it.
Well, sure they are comparable.
They both give the user a free win :D
So you want me to tell you only bring a when you're solo? I wonder if you're gameplay is affected with the key in mind...
And even then there is no counter for the killer, even IF he has NOED (which is not part of the debate btw). He can't patrol 3 places (2 gates and hatch) at the same time. He will most likely close the hatch and leave it after a little while to look for the exits so you can just jump trough. Again, no counter as he even can't grab you there.
The only issue with that is unless there is somebody dead (which chances are if a killer sees a key, they'll be the 1st to die) the hatch wont spawn until there is 1 gen left. 2 gens if theres 3 survivors, 3 gens if 2 survivors or less. So unless mid game you mean there is at least 1 or 2 people dead already.
I'm in red survivor and even though I'm a green killer, the servers permit reds on me. I see ebony Mori's as survivor if the killer thinks you're a 4 SWF. Which is more often than not tbh seeing as how every killer now days thinks 'oh no, a 4 man. They all have items' or some stupid.
As killer, I usually only ever get 1 key per game every once a while unless found (which is rare in game unless wasting perks to increase chances). Even more rare to get 2 keys in one game. I never use Ebony Mori, only Green and yell pi w mori. Cause it just kills the fun on me. And even if I do use Ebony, it's only when I know its 4 SWF either by same name sequence, all same costume. And even then, unless they're sweaty asf, I'm gonna try hook twice before I mori.
The argument with mori being 2 hooks is by then, what's the point mori-ing. For the sake of a few seconds hooking, you're just losing points.