Just a comment about the motivation behind the Ruin update
Hi!
Just wanted to address one common concern I've seen from the community. "They nerfed Ruin so it wouldn't be hard for new Survivors."
That's not quite what the intention was. This is subtle, but bear with me.
New Ruin is in fact really brutal for new Survivors... because it is insidious. They have no idea what's happening, and they struggle to get gens done at all. That little zap effect when you take your hands off a gen? Barely noticable to a new player who's panicing because of the L3 Terror Radius they are hearing. It's not even noticable that the gen is regressing twice as fast as if the Killer had damaged it.
What we wanted to do was not "make it easy for new players" but "make it less frustrating for new players". In playtests with newer Survivor players, it was 4k with 4 or 5 gens up almost every time. But they didn't hate their time in the game as much because those red skill checks weren't in their faces.
I'm looking forward to playing on the PTB with some of you tomorrow; see you in the Fog!
Comments
One thing I'll say....how is it still a Hex Totem Perk? Sure it CAN have a snowball effect with Gen placements & a good protector strategy...but that's not always going to be the case. As usual, the beginning days/weeks after the change will probably have Ruin be decent, but once people catch on to the changes (not everyone reads and follows up on the game's patches) it's going to be less effective.
Not to mention one fun boon to old Ruin was a LOT of Survivors didn't want to deal with the Skillchecks and ran around trying to locate the Totem. That halted Gens progression AND had Survivors less cautious and end up bumping into Killers more. Now, it's less impactul at the beginning of a Match, where imo, it's most useful...and instead potentially interrupt mid game.... Endgame is a Hatch thing abyway, so unless it's a 3 Gen'd situation, I don't see Ruin providing any help.
Regardless of all this, Totem Placement is still pretty garbage most of the time. I feel the speed and design of what Survivors need to do....needs a far deeper look at than simply getting rid of Ruin Skillchecks. There's just no easy fix here and no matter what changes are made...some group is going to get walked over....the game's design kinda has backed itself into a corner I feel.
I've been in a few games where new Ruin stayed up the whole match (both PTB and internal tests). It has a humongous effect on the game if it remains. It's just too much power not to be a Hex.
One thing I think people are missing is they consider themselves, their gen, and the Killer. 1v1 it would not be that good. But when Ruin affects several gens at once because there are more than one Survivor, it's can be a huge amount of regression.
If the Survivors are three-genned, its effect is really nasty. No need to kick gens while pushing Survivors away from them.
So you made the 3 gens situation even worse: if ruin is near the 3 gens you are patrolling, you can stall the game ... and considering it's the only thing the new Ruin is good at (if it will survive until that point), it doesn't seem like a good change for the game health.
May I ask why, when chasing a Survivor, would the other three jump off the Gen and allow Ruin to have a little impact? Is hit and run that pushed now? By the time the first chase is done for the average Joe, 2 Gens are gone and the rest is usually at 0%. This new Ruin seems borderline unplayable to me and I haven't even touched the fact that it can be cleansed.
Also isn't 3Genning for a long time bannable?
Did it ever occur to you that it is always a pretty nasty situation when survivors 3 gen themselves? You justify those changes with one of the worst situations, survivor can put themselves in. WOW
I bet that against any competent killer, 3 genning yourself would be a big problem. No matter if you have your precious new ruin up or not.
Try playing against a swf that know how to loop and do gens lol your tests only work against incompetent survivors listen to your player base or the game will die
I feel like a disappointment. You already received tons of feedback, but you still had self-confidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWh3AxhMAGUOK but this doesnt change the fact that lower tier killers or prep time killers have been completely boned by this change. Sure, some bad/boosted killers would use it to camp and get against low rank survivors but this has completely destroyed any viability for killers like trapper, hag and leatherface
Also getting rid of the no gain on great skillchecks is ludicrous for red rank survivors
New Ruin has had little impact in most PTB games I've seen/played, even if paired with Surveillance.
It's not worth the perk slot, now.
This is the heaviest gutting of any perk to date.
Ppl dont like it, just take this reworked Ruin and give us back old. Its incredible how stubborn you can be.
No one is saying ruin can't last til the end game, it just doesn't more often. Cherry picking a perfect scenario where the survivors 3 gen themselves doesn't change the fact that with new ruin they most likely got to that point in under 5-7 minutes. Even assuming there are only 2 survivors left at that point, one chase allows the other survivor to finish that gen up.
Overall I just don't see how this is a powerful perk considering it is unlikely to last long and really doesn't punish survivors not in a chase
@Almo
The issue people have with the perk is that it requires you to force people off gens for it to have any impact.
If you find a survivor fairly early on a gen and chase them, other people are free to work on gens unimpeded until the chase is over.
The perk does the exact opposite of what old Ruin did - it promotes cranking out gens without getting off of them, while still providing the bonus from great skill checks.
As it is a totem, the perk is still countered by bad spawn RNG, maps, Small Game, and Detective's Hunch, drastically reducing its ability to remain until late game.
Its constant effect allows someone to check for it immediately after touching a gen, so they'll know to cleanse it well before late game.
Surveillance is also actually lackluster with it, as survivors, particularly SWF, will know not to stop working on gens unless chased off as soon as the first person "tests for Ruin."
This is as straightforward and emotion free as I can present these issues.
Are for serious???
Everyone can 4k 5 gens against 4 random new player who have just started the game.
This is why the Gatekeeper emblem was changed with Ruin. In terms of emblem points, it's no longer important to keep 5 gens up the first two minutes to get all those points.
In terms of the game's power curve, it's expected the first couple gens go fast. 4 Survivors, one Killer... several chases to get one Survivor out. But as the number of gens to patrol decreases, it becomes easier for the Killer to patrol, and their power rises. As the Survivors die off, the Killer's power increases more as there are fewer Survivors to work on gens.
Old Ruin gave people who depended on it the idea that it should not require input from the Killer to keep the first couple gens from popping in the first couple minutes. But that is not how we intend the game to work. My apologies for leaving old Ruin in place as long as we did; it was hard to find a good update, and we knew there would be a huge outcry from the players when we did the change, no matter how good it was. The moment I joined the project in August 2018 I knew Ruin was something I wanted to change. It took a lot of time and a lot of discussion with the other designers to find something worthy to replace it.
New Ruin requiring Killers to act in order to get its benefit is by design. Its lack of large impact in the first minutes is by design. Its subtlety is by design (by subtle I mean that one of its large benefits isn't mentioned in the text: no need to spend time kicking gens). Because we recognized Ruin's impact on the Gatekeeper emblem and Killers' ability to pip, we made the alteration to that emblem.
We can easily understand players' frustrations with this deep change to one of their core tools. But the opinion of all of us on the design team is that the new Ruin will make the game healthier overall. Our willingness to stand by it in the face of such anger over the change is an indication of our confidence in the new design and the benefits it will have in the long run.
haha ok..funny joke
Exaclty. Why the hell is this an issue all of a sudden. Last I saw dbd was hitting new player peak counts on the regular and they weren't screaming "WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE RANK 20 BABIES" back then.
I would like to see same confidence in healthier gen speed. I like how you are doing unnecessary changes but completely ignoring gen speed problem. At least once do something for killers and not only for survivors. You are just proving that you ignore players feedback and even players hate new Ruin you are stubborn and defend it at all price.
I'm just waiting for ruin to go live unchanged despite the damage it did to the game in ptb, justified with this level of "logic"
Perfect summary of the situation, agree with every word
A bit of a fun fact, I bought ruin from the shrine my first week playing because I didn't know point efficiency yet
So in the first part you are saying that killers have to tunnel to decrease the survivor power ... and I don't think, as a survivor, it would be so much of a fun. Yes, there are DS & co. ... but a game shouldn't be balanced around "necessary" perks. I like the Ruin change, I don't like it's still a Hex and the mentality behind this change: I would first solve the early game and the matchmaker problems, and after I would take some time to change Ruin the right way. You guys still don't understand what is the problem here ... everybody else did, except you.
Another note: you are saying the killer are required to act ... don't you think that killers have already so many things to do, in particular early game? You are adding this one on top of everything killers should do, easing the life of survivors. The result? Killer will be even more stressful to play, and survivors even more boring ... except for new players, but hey ... there shouldn't be a matchmaker to handle this?
Did you know Last Year has about 50 people playing it. Have fun.
It doesn't affect those veteran players.... Veteran players probably don't care, since if they play both sides, which most veteran players do, they know both sides get nerf'ed. It isn't survivor vs killer when it comes to nerfs.
Also those veteran players who are high rank used to go on how ruin is destroyed so fast, or skilled survivors just burn through Ruin without taking out the totem, so it was pretty much useless in the terms of countering a gen rush.
So what is the issue?
I'd post my favourite meme at the moment, but I'll get some salty reports for it :P
So I'll put this one instead...
3 problems with this post.
1. Even if the gate keeper points are changed, gens still get done too quick. You say killer's power grows as gens are done and the first few are expected to go quick. You are assuming easy chases here. If a survivor is half good at looping this leaves three others to hammer out gens. Unless you tunnel and kill one survivor straight away there is no way for killer to win.
2. You say ruin was too passive and required no killer action. What about DS and borrowed time? These perks require zero skill on the survivor part and encourage reckless play by survivors. Where is the fairness?
3. The most important point: what is the purpose of a PTB if you don't care about the feedback? This is twice now you have said the team expected outrage and are going through anyway. That does not come across as confidence, it seems arrogant.
Devs are not capable of facing reality. They will never admit that gen speed is problem, that god loops are problem, easy totems are problem and same about some problematic perks like DS and BT. They will never admit it and never directly answer if and when they gonna solve these problems. Every time I directly asked them, nobody replied, only still same trash talking about "why is new Ruin good...bla bla bla".....not mention that they totaly ignore feedback. Ppl hate new Ruin but they will still release it even nobody wants it, so why the hell you are creating feedback category and some PTB surveys??? WHY?
@Almo
If survivors do not 3-gen themselves, certain M1 killers have no chance when there are 3 gens left spread out across different corners of the map.
They are certainly not at their most powerful in those scenarios.
Nice. I forgot to mention that
As an aside, props to @Almo for actually diving head first into the discussion.
Appreciate it.
Ok couple of things here first when you said you had it stayed up all match that means little in terms of PTB and internal test as vast majority of cases it was done on purpose to test it. When it goes live the chances that it will even stay up whole match is very unlikely. Also how many of those games were in the new lery's map? as people are learning the new map so yeah it may stay up longer than normal, but what happens when we learn it and know all the spots its bye ruin in early game.
I disagree that it's too much power not to be a hex as it does nothing to slow down survivors working on gen which is the main reason why in red ranks it is used so much a killer cannot "push" all survivors off gens especially in large open maps, especially in early game which again is why ruin is used so much in red rank to help with early game.
But if you are so adamant that it is too much power not to be a hex then why can't you let us test that theory out in the PTB and change it to a non hex perk and let us test it. This is such a huge change to the game I think it's only fair that we can test it out and if that means a longer PTB then it will need to be a longer PTB as changing ruin will have game changing consequences.
I also want to clarify why in my opinion there's such a huge backlash about this and the lack of trust that killers feel towards of you and the rest of the devs, where it got to the point that there's even reports on killers protesting in game by standing next to the lit totem and not doing anything.
Over the past few months there has been "changes" mainly on the killer side that allot of people were not happy with
Nurse- Nerf to base kit which people were saying was uncalled for. There has been a huge reports of people saying no to the changes to the base kit in PTB but you still put it in live and even nerfed some of the add ons that could get us close to original nurse.
Spirit- Slight nerf that didn't have a huge backlash the main issue was that it was perceived that due to a sudden huge outcry from people just shortly after the nurse that instead of taking a long time as you usual do it was done so quickly.
Legion- while it may be a "slight buff" in terms of your stats overall the player perception is that you made him weaker when we all said he needs to be stronger and how one of the devs or you said you nerfed a bit of legion to buff borrowed time when no one said BT needed a buff as far as iam aware. Again like the nurse there were a huge outcry of no to the changes to PTB but you still pushed it live.
Oni- now granted the flick it was as you say due to a bug or issue however people actually really liked it and felt that even it was a bug it was a good one and made oni stronger. But when you fixed it got people feeling robbed especially if they like it in the PTB and now it's gone in live. then his multiple nerfs before this patch where you buff him has made people feel they were just money cows which I know you didn't intend but that what came across.
the nightmare- his rope nerf came out of nowhere and no chance to test to see how it would do in a PTB if you can please clarify why these nerfs went straight to live and not been put in the PTB?
Regarding the doctor imp personally holding off till he goes live as I think the bigger thing is Ruin and I do think it more to do with the dev notes that was released and the feeling that the killers are being ignored for several months there has been posts debates in the forum about the gen speeds, there has been videos about it but whether or not you mean it the killer community felt like it was getting brushed aside or ignored or not taken seriously. we held onto the belief that something would be done eventually until that dev post came out.
I have to be honest that post was the one of the most one sided post I have read there were not a single thing about what killer find frustrating or what benefits the killers will have with the doctor changes or the new ruin it was all about the survivor frustration and what they dislike. Also the reason behind the ruin change felt like a slap across the face, while gatekeeper was a harsh emblem in its old state it was not the reason why 80% of red ranks use it. so to the killer community you made us feel like you are ignoring our concern give us really bad reasoning for the change on a perk that for us was a band aid to a issue that we have been voicing for months and that all you care was the survivors who are new to the game.
Now I hope that it not the case that you just care about one side but seeing what's been happening over the past few months I can't say for a definite that you are unbiased and before anyone say anything about what happen to survivors majority was either to fix a bug or to stop a exploit i.e. BL it's more of the fact it's been big "changes" to killers month after month and not any to the other side.
I know the chances of you reading this is unlikely and responding again unlikely but I felt like I had to make this post for more of myself and the hope that there's a way to rebuild the bridge between you and the killer community as I do see that bridge gone now.
I do hope you read this I know it's a bit long winded but I needed to let put it out there as I couldn't keep it to myself any longer and I do hope that this has been helpful to you and I hope we can rebuild the trust between killers and devs.
I'll give these a shot..
@Almo
Here is direct question, just answer it:
When do you gonna fix gen speeds? Simple question, just give simple answer. Nothing hard. If you are so confident about healthier game for survivors, when are you planning to make it healthier for killers.
This is so funny, even after i studied psychology i cant get this.
"In terms of the game's power curve, it's expected the first couple gens go fast."
Within the first 50 seconds should at least one gen pop, and one should be at 50%. Quick maths, cause one survivor is getting chased, 3 are not. 2 survivors need 44 seconds for a gen, 1 needs 80 seconds.
"4 Survivors, one Killer... several chases to get one Survivor out."
This is the point my brain starts to hurt.... Does this mean, i should tunnel someone, to get him out of the game as fast as possible? If so, i have to apologize, i´m not in the mood to tunnel the ######### out of everyone, cause i know how damn boring this is, and - it is really unfun. Even if i would do that, and tunnel this survivor, there´s maybe BT, what makes me hit him twice, also gives him a sprintburst, and the least there could be DS, which is definitly used by about 80% of survivors in red ranks, i would suggest. So leaving him slugged doesnt change anything for me, i still cant get him out. When i switch targets, cause of big brain, the same procedere starts again, just with an other survivor. Meanwhile, first survivor was picked up and still, gens are at least be done by one person.
"But as the number of gens to patrol decreases, it becomes easier for the Killer to patrol, and their power rises."
Theoretically yes, facing a 12000m² map practically not really, if the survivors have at least more than 3 braincells to not 3 gen themselves. So the ways to the gens are more the problem. Same with unmindgameable pallets, or funny maps like "Ironworks of Invinite", "Disturbed Ward", "Mount Ormond", "Rancid Abbatoir" and other maps feeling like jungle gym into cow loop into jungle gym into killer shack.
"We can easily understand players' frustrations with this deep change to one of their core tools. But the opinion of all of us on the design team is that the new Ruin will make the game healthier overall"
Great, why not fixing the problem with the insanely safe loops, extremely long fences at Haddonfield and so on..... I really think, the frustration is not just cause of the change to ruin, it is not changing insane large maps and stupid ridiculous long and safe loops, eg Thompson House.
TLDR: No problem with killing ruin, big problem with not fixing the maps.
1. Ruin was one of the main ways to slow gens down. This is common sense. I personally didn't like the perk when I played but there is a reason 45% of killers used it.
2. They relate in terms of devs logic. If you actually read their posts and mine you will see that. They claim ruin didn't require skill to use. My point is neither do several survivor perks. By their own logic they should be nerfed. And to a certain extent a "tit4tat" is necessary to maintain balance.
3. So they might make one adjustment to PTB doctor, color me unimpressed. You miss the fact that the doctor changes are insignificant compared to the ruin ones and the outrage around them.
And what will be done to help new killers?
Perks like adrenaline and DS are frustating to new killer
You can tell a new killer that he needs to learn how to adapt to this perks, by stopping gens and not tunneling survivors off the hook
But why should new killers adapt to frustating survivor perks, when new survivors won't adapt to killer perks?
Yes, the delay from Shock Therapy to a hit is going to be reduced for the release. It's way too long on PTB.
So new ruin should help later in the game? But with it still being a hex, it will not only not be useless early game as you describe, but more often than not it won't be around late game at all!
And surely by stating killers aren't supposed to protect early gens, its promoting 3 gen-strats, which im sure you've also previously stated is something the devs didnt want to happen. (as this is actually a bannable offence). And if you say you don't promote 3 gen-strats in this way, then your simply advocating for the killer to lose as certain maps have become so big, killers that lack mobility simply can't traverse the distances without a generator being completed.
In addition, games will go by much faster, giving less time for the killers to actually earn the other 3 emblems they are to focus on. Making the game as a whole harder as killers have the same stuff to do, with a lot less time to do it.
This change to hex:ruin with no compensation to the generators themselves is ludicrous. As it shows, once again, that the devs have sided with "making survivors lives easier" whilst simultaneously making killers jobs that much harder, with no consideration given on how this would positively effect killer gameplay!
This change will be fine for some killers, but other are going to be absolutely destroyed. How is EW 1 Michael supposed to do anything early game now? Or Hag? Or Trapper. These characters literally can’t spread pressure in the early game, which is why they needed Ruin. Now they have nothing to help.
Also good point. Good luck getting hook and sacrifice points when the gens are done in 5 minutes
The worst part of all of this though is these comments won't be looked at or responded to. I'm not even going to tag devs in this one because what's the point. They just addressed the last sentence of one post that was several lines long.
No, if you raise a decent point that actually has validity to it. You'll either get ignored, your comment deleted, or banned.
Or survivor mains mob you and it turns from a discussion to a rave
Like the hatch gives people the impression they dont have to do anything or help anyone to escape?
When are we looking at all things "frustrating and skill-les", and not just those for new survivors?
Now do something about object of obsession or decisive strike if you want the game to be "healthier"
Right, thats why the killer is the strongest once the exit gates are powered, because there's only TWO things to patrol right? Get real.
I assume you were equally confident with the design of legion and mettle of man.
Actually the 3 gen strategy itself, isn't bannable.
It becomes bannable when no action is being taken on the killers side to push the game forward, as in just sitting on the gens not committing to any chases to finish the match. Equally problematic would be if the survivors decided to all sit on the other side of the map not trying to work on the gens. However I think this falls mostly on the killer, since they need to kill survivors to finish the match, where the survivors end up becoming helpless and give up.
Eventually someone has to do something.
SOON™
Of course it is the killer's responsibility to move the game forward 🙄. If the survivors didn't want to 3 gen themselves then they should've played better. If I'm the killer here I'm not committing to a chase just so they can finish the gens.
Yeah but you can't sit there for an hour doing that. Sad fact.
After 20 minutes it is time to finish the match. If you couldn't get those survivors in the 20 minutes, sitting on those gens for another 20 minutes most likely won't change that.
So what your saying is, if the survivors don't mindfully acknowledge which gens THEY THEMSELVES are completing, and end up on a 3 gen-strat. It then turns to the killer to either leave the gens and let it be completed or they face a potential ban?
Can you see the hypocrisy in the situation? How it falls upon the killer to rectify the situation, when in reality, its the survivors who have not only caused a situation like this to occur, but more importantly, when this situation arises, the killer is on the defensive and must let the survivors win out of fear of a ban, losing all sense of 'power' they are meant to have.
No, in a situation like this it is the survivors fault to have 3 genned themselves, and they must go with the consequences of that being that the final gen being hard to complete, rather than "oh we've 3 genned ourselves, lets make this game go on a bit longer than normal and get the killer banned".
I would gladly sit for an hour just to secure an extra kill or two at that point
Don't read too much into as this is only a game. I look at it like this...
If there are survivors are constantly trying to get one of those gens done, they most likely are trying and don't care how long it is taking. Eventually they get bolder and bolder, till they just give up and let you kill them. They don't want to waste 20 minutes getting the final gen.
If they go afk?... then why not just go over and kill them?
It isn't worth the time, no matter how badly you want the win.
Killers can bait the survivors over to work on a gen and try to catch them in the process.
Just finish the match and stop worrying about the little stuff.