tixerp
tixerp
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@Triadequinaxor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2446558#Comment_2446558
true nemesis is just a chain goes brrr type scenario, its the same we've seen before. pinhead is just nurse with a gimmick
I'd say Nemesis is closer to a broken down Pyramid head, while Pinhead is closer to a broken down Clown. If they can't come up with a completely unique idea, they just use status effects, items, cooldowns, and meters to fill the holes. And if it's too similar to another killer, just break it into steps to make people think it's more complex than it actually is. Case in point, Trickster and Huntress.
Like okay, I got an idea for a killer. How about, a guy that has like 40 mini mines. And he can throw a bunch of mines all over the ground really fast. And every time a survivor steps in one of those mines, it build up their "trap meter". And when their trap meter is filled by stepping on 8 different mines, they get trapped and can't move. And you know what, while we're at it, we could just make it Jason from F13. Have the mines be those little traps with leaves covered over them, and maybe have his mom utter a voiceline when he kills or gets hit, so it's kinda like F13. And y'know what, since the mines aren't enough for balance on their own, and I'm too tired to come up with a way his mines could also incorporate map pressure; Let's just give him a completely disconnected side utility where he can teleport to any locker if he opens a locker. Don't forget to put a cooldown on that teleport and mines though, wouldn't wanna spam it now, would we?
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@Boss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2446483#Comment_2446483
Oh you want it faster and have it be the primary focus.
Why make such changes without releasing new content and risk most people not liking it (*looks at Clown & Nightmare*), while a new chapter brings in more players for that new content, has players pay money, and thus makes them turn a profit?
And then "fixing" Killers is simply one of the things they can decide to do with that profit.
Though of course i understand the want of players like you, as if i wouldn't like for more Killers to be very fun to play.
Also i personally don't see people asking here for more content, i see people asking here for specific licenses.
Introducing a license automatically means more content but those are not for the sake of more content, it's to interact with the characters, get new lore on them, or perhaps you really just wanted to slam a Pallet on this one movie guy, idk.
Maybe they ask for simply more content on Reddit and/or Twitter, i don't go there.
I made this comment late at night and i'm tired, so maybe i wrote something i won't agree with once i wake up, lol.
A complete stop on new content is a bit much. But from what I've seen, the pace we're going at now isn't cutting it. 4 chapters a year, and every one is a let down in some way. I'd be happy with just 2 good chapters a year instead. New content is good for revenue, but so is having a good game first and foremost. And at the state we're in now, the reputation and quality has been getting worse and worse.
When people want licenses, it IS because they want more content. It IS because they want to interact with the characters. The first, most valuable thing that comes to mind for a character, is their power and perks. I wanted more than anything to see Pyramid Head, Pinhead, The Thing, etc translated to DBD. The problem is, none of them actually feel like their characters. They feel like a generic DBD killer, with a skin. This is why I detest new Freddy. It was an instance of reworking the wrong thing. I truly believe old Freddy was one of the best instances of seeing a licensed killer translated to DBD. The character has such a abstract power going off the films, that you'd HAVE to flip the rules of the game upside down for it to be Freddy. And that's exactly what they did, I loved it. But now with the rework, he doesn't really feel like Freddy anymore. I want BHVR to take their time, and not panic respond to the fans. Don't rush content, just make it the best it can be.
Also it's cool man, don't lose sleep over some DBD forum discussion lol
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There's a lot of variables here that aren't really connected to one another.
I like the idea of Blood warden activating after the last gen pops, immediately starting EGC and halve it's timer. With the blocking exits mechanic in conjunction, that's good enough.
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@Boss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2446375#Comment_2446375
Such changes have been made to other Killers as well without halting chapter releases.
At a glacial pace. And the more killers, they just keep adding to the pile of mediocre ideas. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
I really don't understand why more content is in such demand anyway when we have so much already. And so much of it isn't even good. Before we go any further and continue to lose track, let's fix what we have. Because there's a LOT of it that needs a LOT of fixing. Maybe then, future content won't be so rushed once we properly condense our scope.
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@Boss said:
They keep releasing new chapters and also gave Wraith very nice buffs, so i don't think that continuing to release more content is the issue.
Also, do we already call Deathslinger an old Killer?
@danielmaster87 said:
I've always disagreed with this. I think the devs should really be able to keep releasing new chapters while ALSO fixing the game's problems and buffing weaker stuff.
@T103 said:
“A poor craftsman blames his tools” comes to mind when you complain about some killers being “terrible”.
@Tsulan said:
Are you asking for buffs or nerfs? This isn´t exactly clear here.
It's not even a matter of just buffing and nerfing in some instances. As if the only problem here is that the killer isn't good, or is too good. It's that the killer power is fundamentally, an undercooked idea. As in it could benefit from a rework to have a much more simplified, yet creative power.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445544#Comment_2445544
"The term "Balancing around fun" is implying whatever fun idea we start with, will still result in something balanced in the end."
That's only true if proper balancing is actually involved.
"It was never a competitive game by any means, it was supposed to be an asymmetrical horror hide-and-seek sim."
PvP is pretty fundamentally competitive. Hide and seek has a wincon, depending on which side you are on: Find everyone, or stay hidden long enough.
"Sure, there's still a wincon, but in reality people just play for frags."
That is an assumption based on what, exactly?
They don't even care if they "lose" in the end, so long as they got cool frags. The gameplay of fragging is still fun and balanced regardless of the objective/wincon.
Not caring about losing or enjoying the gameplay is not mutually exclusive from having a proper wincon to balance the game around.
Yes, players compete against each other. By competitive, I mean it wasn't intended to be at an Esports level. The devs have said multiple times that that's great and all, but it's a byproduct of the game. There's a reason why of all the things to borrow from Hide n Seek, the wincon, was not one of them. It's because they wanted to make their own system. A system without an explicit wincon. Because in DBD's instance, it was irrelevant to the fun, enjoyment, and "balance" of the game.
You missed my point with your last statement. I'm saying having a fun and balanced game, isn't mutually exclusive to having a wincon. People will join deathmatch in arena shooters, just to have fun. And if the game ends because one team reached max points, it's not like THAT wincon is the catalyst for which the entire games balance relies on. Like as if, you played an endless deathmatch instead, and suddenly there would be no cohesive singular thing to balance the game around, so now it's just an unbalanced mess. The balance is in the details, from player interaction, to weapons, to map design, etc. These things can be just as relevant WITH a wincon, as much as WITHOUT.
Context is important here. Something like Overwatch will definitely try to balance as much as it can around the concept of objective wins and losses. Meanwhile something like an arena shooter, can be more abstract. These two can both be fun and balanced, and exist at the same time. So I'm saying, why try so hard to keep push push pushing DBD to be like Overwatch, when it was always meant to be closer to an Arena shooter? (Not literally)
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445120#Comment_2445120
I didn't say that balance always equals fun. I said that "balancing around fun" leads to terrible balance.
"If you start with a fun idea, and chisel it into something balanced, that's great."
This right here? This is not "balancing around fun." This is "keeping things fun AND balanced." Fun absolutely is important, but balance is an important part of keeping things fun. Because if things are an unbalanced mess, then it's just not fun knowing that opportunities for engaging gameplay are being stifled/overshadowed by balance issues.
You use TF2 as an example, but TF2 absolutely has wincons focused around it (at least, in servers that aren't just designed around goofing off). DBD does not have that. When you don't have a centralized win condition to balance the game around, you don't have a good way to make sure that achieving that win condition is fun because now everyone has different ideas on what winning means and thus all have different standards of what makes the game fun for them.
Balancing around fun, balanced AND fun. Semantics. The term "Balancing around fun" is implying whatever fun idea we start with, will still result in something balanced in the end. It's not like if we balance around a fun idea, we somehow throw balance out the window.
When you don't have a centralized win condition to balance the game around, you don't have a good way to make sure that achieving that win condition is fun because now everyone has different ideas on what winning means and thus all have different standards of what makes the game fun for them.
That's the point. It was never a competitive game by any means, it was supposed to be an asymmetrical horror hide-and-seek sim. If we have nothing to balance everything around, maybe it's because we're trying to push balance so hard into the wrong game. Otherwise, the devs would have put in a wincon from the start. If you want a asymmetrical horror game that IS trying to be that kind of game, try something like Home Sweet Home: Survive.
In TF2's instance, look at something like a KOTH server. Sure, there's still a wincon, but in reality people just play for frags. Because that's fun. They don't even care if they "lose" in the end, so long as they got cool frags. The gameplay of fragging is still fun and balanced regardless of the objective/wincon.
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@Voodoo_Thirsty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445284#Comment_2445284
I'll put it simple.
If you buy anything in a competitive game it'll most likely be either of two things:
(1) Cosmetic items.
(2) An ingame item you buy during a match.
(1) applies to almost all games nowadays.
(2) applies to LoL, DOTA, Apex, PUBG or any other competitive games you can imagine.
DBD only follows (1) and not (2) and that makes a HUGE problem.
If I played a fighting game, I should be playing someone else who is on the same playing field. If my character had boosted stats thanks to some item I bought before hand, how in the hell do you consider that fair? And I repeat, if you throw fairness and equality out the window, how can you call it a competitive game?
More importantly, I was always under the impression that It's an asymmetrical horror film simulator. I remember back then, people joked about the idea of there being tournaments and stuff, because it was so far removed from what DBD is. When you watch a horror movie, it's not exactly FAIR is it? There's nothing quite like DBD, it's not meant to be reduced to the same quotas as every other game. Hell, there isn't even a proper wincon or fail state.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445209#Comment_2445209
I think you hit the nail on the head! It would explain why lots of recent killers seem to be 'cut from the same cloth'. I find it hard to blame them for wanting to maintain balance in the game, ebcause I think it's an important aspect of what makes the game fun - it legitimizes everyone's skill, and highlights good plays. But too much focus on that would kill the creativity - it's just too much standardization which makes it easy to become complacent and focus on other things, like monetizing. Although, looking at it from this perspective you created makes me feel more sympathetic towards them XD because they're trying. The problem is, though, when you're paying good money for this stuff, they should do their best. So, I'm with you. I really want DBD to work, because I love it and lately I haven't been happy with it because something is clearly wrong!
Yeah, and I don't really blame BHVR much honestly. If anything it's the fans being very vocal about what THEY think DBD should be like. So BHVR did their best to listen to their audience and completely change their game. And since people like me are usually the minority now, there's not much of an actual problem here. I just happen to really miss what DBD used to be. I think it's just time for another competitor to step up and fill that missing place.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445176#Comment_2445176
Exactly. So much lost potential, and unfortunately I think it's because they don't invest enough, or see any value in making killers anymore interesting than they currently do. In a way, killer's seem to be serving the function of a skin and nothing more, considering how similar all of their powers are. The idea of playing a specific killer is mostly up to your imagination to fill in the holes. It would have been awesome to play the nemesis as we know him in the RE games, but we just have to pretend we're not playing a reskinned demo/PH/deathslinger.
Also, I haven't heard any news about why McLean left, but I have been wondering if BHVR is giving up on making their games any more complex than they currently are, meaning they're ok with average level programmers to simply recycle existing functionality - as long as they sell cosmetics! I don't mean to be so cynical, but one dev stream about hit validation had a dev that was basically pleading with viewers that "the math required to do this properly is so hard". That's fine and all, but it definitely made me consider who they were hiring and what their goals were.
I hate to be so cynical too, but the reason I complain so much is that I really loved this game. I see so much potential in it, and I want it to be better, but it keeps screwing itself over.
I think a potential reason to these samey killers might be that, BHVR has become misguided in the sense that their biggest priority is making a "balanced" killer. They think of ideas with balance and rules in mind first, rather than a fun idea. They don't come up with ideas like Old Freddy where they say: "Since he's Freddy, maybe he could be all about bringing you into the dream world. And it's just like the movie, where he's invisible and cant hurt you when you're awake, but you're dead meat when you're asleep.".
Now it's more like: "Well to properly fight against looping, lets give him some kind of slowdown trap, or fake pallets. And to help him with better map pressure, he can teleport to generators. Those things feel kinda dream related right? We can make it look dream related, don't worry about it. And, him not being able to hit survivors is just too out there, so you can kinda keep the invisible idea, but just let him hit a survivor and it'll auto put them to sleep." They don't want to try a crazy idea anymore. They realize that they can get by with a ranged attack, status effect, cooldown meter, etc. People will argue over whether it's balanced or not all day, and BHVR can stoke the flame and just tweak little numbers, maintaining discussion. I want to play as Pyramid Head in DBD. Not a generic DBD killer, if he was kinda like PH.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
Right? The last 8 killers have very similar powers. Aim, then execute some linear attack that has some nuanced feature that makes it easy to dodge. Demo, Deathslinger, Pyramid head, the twins, and the nemesis have powers that are almost identical.
If anything I think they need to address base movement speed killers. They don't need to make them faster, but they need to give all of them better tracking abilities. Like, the doctor is base movement speed and he's fairly strong because he can easily find people, so he doesn't need to be as fast. Whereas with Myers or Ghostface it's all up to the survivors messing up. Leatherface might be one exception because he downs people quickly. Trapper, Shape, Clown, Pig, Ghostface and Plague perform like garbage at higher ranks for the most part.
The most offensive part of it to me is that it's so painfully obvious that some of these killers could've had some of the most interesting ideas, and somehow BHVR manages to not even come close. Hell, in Nemesis's cinematic, it shows him picking up and throwing Meg with his tentacle. And you're telling me they best they could come up with is a lite PH attack, with some differing properties? And then slap on "go to object to heal status effect". Cool. Really feels like I'm playing Nemesis.
Demo had the entire concept of the Upside down to use for his kit, and in the end it's just a portal? Seriously? And you slapped on a charge attack too?
Pyramid Head really did it for me. I would've loved if they did something really creative and polarizing. Really flip the rules of the game upside down on it's head. He had such potential to defy every trend DBD killer's have followed up till this point. But nope. 115 killer with a ranged attack. You should be making powers for these characters that could only ever apply to this one character. Otherwise, what's the point. To build "hype!", and get people to buy the cash grab.
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445152#Comment_2445152
Him being pure evil is vague enough to where there's still discussion to this day on what could be behind Myer's. Carpenter knew people would ask the question, so rather than giving a real explanation, he answered it in the most intentionally mysterious way possible.
There will always be questions, no matter what. It's why kids can ask "why" all the time, because there's always something more. However, being pure evil is at least an attempt at an explanation, however poor it might be. If he wanted to be intentionally mysterious, he should've just left the question completely unanswered.
And I wouldn't recommend Shattered Memories personally. It dropped the ball, especially if you were expecting adapting enemies, because outside of visuals, its still the same one enemy. If you want to see the best of Silent Hill, try 1-4.
I was only expecting adapting visuals, not behavior. However, those games are far too old now. I've been spoiled by modern graphics.
And when we can't figure out what that something more is, it can be unsettling. When something genuinely unexplainable happens, even as a skeptic of the paranormal, it's spooky. When you hear a freaky sound in the middle of the night, and can't figure out what it is because of the darkness; That's the unknown.
They're really not that old. If anything the older graphics add to the atmosphere. And sometimes, like in Silent Hill 3, it looks even better and more stylized than all these generic Unreal Engine "photorealism" games we have now. And you're just missing out on great games, and some of the best horror games made to this day most importantly. Are you not gonna play Mario 64, because it's old too?
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445136#Comment_2445136
Michael Myers is a genius example of horror at it's finest. Looking at the first movie, why is Michael killing all these people? Why is he stalking and going after Laurie? Why does he creepily stare at Bob's corpse? Because according to Loomis, behind his eyes is only pure, irrational, unreasonable, evil. There is no explaining it.
You literally just gave an explanation, though. It's a poor explanation, bordering on a tautology ("Michael Myers does evil things because he's evil"), but an explanation nonetheless. I'll take that over no explanation.
And the unknown isn't scary huh? Try playing a Silent Hill game.
I have. I tried playing Shattered Memories because, IMO, it was the pinnacle of horror games: a game that adapts its creatures to what frightens you the most. Unfortunately, I couldn't finish it due to problems unrelated to the game. What I saw, though, wasn't scary. It was disconcerting and occasionally surprising, but scary? No.
Him being pure evil is vague enough to where there's still discussion to this day on what could be behind Myer's. Carpenter knew people would ask the question, so rather than giving a real explanation, he answered it in the most intentionally mysterious way possible.
And I wouldn't recommend Shattered Memories personally. It dropped the ball, especially if you were expecting adapting enemies, because outside of visuals, its still the same one enemy. If you want to see the best of Silent Hill, try 1-4.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2445099#Comment_2445099
I disagree. I hate it when horror and mystery stories "leave things to the imagination". That's just lazy writing, when you expect your reader to fill in the gaps with something exciting because you couldn't come up with anything. It's like never showing monsters/ghosts in monster/ghost movies. The unknown isn't scary, it's annoying. How am I supposed to be afraid of something I know nothing about?
Michael Myers is a genius example of horror at it's finest. Looking at the first movie, why is Michael killing all these people? Why is he stalking and going after Laurie? Why does he creepily stare at Bob's corpse? Because according to Loomis, behind his eyes is only pure, irrational, unreasonable, evil. There is no explaining it. It's chilling. The moment they try to go into detail and explain Myer's (The horror), it falls apart. Having him be a relative to Laurie, having some connection to a cult, having him have a connection with the cult that has some weird ritual every Halloween; It just tarnishes it.
DBD's backstories were supposed to be urban legends about said character. Urban legends, revolving entirely around mystery. Now, they're written like some kind of elaborate omnipotent novel with a 5th graders purple prose. And the unknown isn't scary huh? Try playing a Silent Hill game.
@Wedeguy said:
Why are you complaining about a game that has more than 25 killers yet, it's biggest competitor(or was) had only 1. learn to appreciate some stuff even if they're not perfect.
Quality over quantity. F13 and DBD are not the same games at all, and I'd rather slowly have 5 perfect killers than quickly get 20 meh killers.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2444544#Comment_2444544
"Balance should be around fun, and not winning."
That's a mentality that leads to terrible game balance. Which is why very, VERY few games actually adopt this.
Balance isn't always equal to fun. TF2 is imo a good example of balancing around fun. Very few things are inherently broken, because valve does make sure to balance, but every class has crazy weapons, builds and playstyles that focus first and foremost on having FUN. If you start with a fun idea, and chisel it into something balanced, that's great. If you start with a balanced idea, and try to chisel it into something fun, it won't come out as well. Fun should be the #1 priority. That's why we had great killers like Billy and Huntress. Balanced, but more importantly, fun. And when I see characters like Nemesis, New Freddy, Demo, etc, I can't help but feel they weren't designed with a simple fun idea at the start.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2444389#Comment_2444389
All my homies hate Wraith with that horrible backstory, and he is kind of ugly. But I am jealous because he is really fun and strong. With a tweak to the lore, I could be convinced to play him. You don't need to change anything, per se. Just add some context. A lot of it.
I feel the opposite. I love the sweet and simple backstories. Horror and mystery are supposed to leave things to the imagination. Him snapping and killing his boss, and ripping out his skull and spinal cord is crazy. And from there, no one knows what happened. But we know the vengeful Wraith wanders throughout Autohaven Wreckers to this day. It's like a good urban legend, and the entire idea of coming into the fog realm, is that you went missing. New backstories and archive lore don't understand any of this.
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@TAG said:
The lack of a proper wincon to balance the game around.
Also game performance/frame rate issues. :(
The fact the game doesn't have a proper wincon is a trait that made the game fascinating. The game isn't a competitive Esport. You create your own perceived victory. Balance should be around fun, and not winning. ""Winning"" is not always equal to fun.
@Rogue11 said:
Let's see, for starters, the devs making 4 separate patches over the last year to prevent mixing set cosmetics, while barely attempting (and mostly failing) one patch to fix console performance.
The devs "updating" various maps, models, animations, and UI in a rushed fashion, mostly ignoring any negative feedback, and declaring said reworks a success.
Unnecessary and dysfunctional chat filter that has no option to be disabled if you don't want daddy gaming company to save you from scary words.
Getting pallet hit rollbacks when playing killer every other match.
MMR that only matches me against Blight and Nurse players with 4 slowdown perks, leading to burnout and boredom from lack of variety in survivor gameplay.
Continually creating and reworking killers to be strong 1v1 in chase but terrible 1v4, making games boring for both sides. Survivors hold W and M1 to counter oppressive anti-loop mechanics and no one has fun.
I'm sure there are other things but these just came to mind.
How did I even forget to mention the UI? Holy crap, it was REALLY bad before, but it's still pretty bad now even. It was so bad, I refused to play the game at all with it. The most offensive part, is why did they even do it? Literally no one asked, and I think the old HUD was perfect.
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@DontNerf said:
Whenever i see someone complain about the frequency of chapters i just roll my eyes. You do realise that BHVR is a company right?
Bull. That mentality is what's going to keep us in this state of eternal roadmaps and unfinished content monthly for all games. You know what else gets money and players into your games? Having a good game. Good games can't be made if you commit to rushing ideas and content every few or so months. That's not how good products are made. It takes time.
Also if anything, nowadays, me and my friends aren't even phased be new content. We check to see if the content is still rushed and lackluster, then carry on when we realize it is. The one thing that would get me back to 2017 levels of playing, sharing, and investment, is if they completely 180'd and owned up to mistakes, and had the balls to fix what we already have, rather than making cash grabs.
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I'd agree but you lost me halfway through. We have what, 25 killers now? And more than half of them could use reworking IMO. Not even just their powers, but their design and backstories too (Which I know would never happen). I was seriously disappointed by Twins, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Trickster, Legion, Demo, partially Blight, etc. The last thing we need is more content. I'd appreciate more than anything, making all that we have right now, the best it can be. Bring back the old UI that was changed for no reason, and rework these newer killer powers.
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A lot of things. But I won't list them all.
I don't like killer designs and powers anymore, and I feel the game has lost its way in terms of design. Ever since Spirit, it feels like killer powers have been on a decline of being increasingly complex, and sometimes the playstyle encouraged by these powers don't even reflect that. I miss early killer powers where it's just 1 interesting idea, and you can use it however you want. No cooldown, no meters, no tons of status effects, no built in killer instinct or aura reading or crap. I blame the community that wants this balanced like an Esport. The game was never meant to be competitive, and it hampers novel but prickly ideas, like Old Freddy.
And does no one remember the thematic tone of the game? This dark take on folklore monsters, and slashers? Survivors running every day, hiding from killers. and living with hope through fear? Not a single thing about the game feels connected to that anymore. All these flashy bright clean cosmetics ruin the atmosphere. We're running around maps in the Wild West, Feudal-style Japan, and Old Babylonian-temples. The joke cosmetics are, just that, a joke. Killer designs now can just be a slightly altered human like Twins and Trickster. It's all really sad to see.
Even something as simple as characters being blank slate horror archetypes. Now that's ruined. Every character needs a 14 paragraph long backstory, leaving nothing to the imagination with terrible writing. The game is stomping on it's past, which I used to have massive respect for. And in the end, no one else seems to mind it. In fact a lot of people praise DBD's new direction. So oh well, what can you do. I hope for more than anything, that a competitor comes to DBD, that tries to capture DBD's old design methods. Maybe I'll make it myself.
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2443065#Comment_2443065
True but Spirit sadly lacks a lot of horror elements which make Kayako scary. Spirit's hair for starters makes her easily visible, removes so much of an uneasy factor by that alone, her overall outfit doesn't help the factor of her being not as uneasy to look at, her weapon being a katana also kills a bit of the horror factor, overall Spirit seemed scarier in her trailer but even then her floating hair and weird choice in a katana removes a lot of horror or uneasy feelings we could've got from her. Kayako's power could have something to do with the fact you can't escape her and it could utilize her son/cat since they usually work as a trio.
I agree. I think the best killer designs are when their faces are covered by a mask. I like the crazy hair and extreme expressions, but I wish her hair was covering her face by default. And maybe when she's lunging out of her power, her hair pulls up and reveals her wicked face.
Not to mention, when spirit was in the PTB, the audio was glitched, so you didn't hear that dumb "nyah" "nyeh" whining noise she does. And that was actually unintentionally very unsettling. Hearing those ghostly wails and moans. I wish they kept it that way.
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I think lore is the least important factor for deciding a DBD licensed killer. I'm torn between seeing BHVR make killers inspired by classic horror villains, like Trapper, Billy, Spirit, etc. But I also like seeing the killers themselves in the game, like Myers, Leatherface, etc. The problem is if you have both, sometimes it's a little redundant.
Before Spirit was in, I liked the idea of Kayako. But now that the role is somewhat taken, I find it hard to come up with a compellingly unique power idea. And I'd rather the killer not be in at all as opposed to a slight variation of spirit, or having some poorly designed unnecessarily complex power.
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Both. Usually survivor, because most of my playtime in this game is me with my friends. But I like playing killer more.
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@Kebek said:
@tixerp You can't sabo beartraps since 3.6.0.
3.6.0 | Chains of Hate
- Survivors will no longer be able to sabotage a Bear Trap with a Toolbox or the Perk Saboteur.
Every other chase interaction with PH and trapper power wise is the same as what you metioned first. You can blind or DH etc to make PH miss and lose time giving you a chance to break the chase as much as you can DH through trap or blind trapper to step in it.
It feels to me like you're giving Evan more credit then he deserves. Trap map knowledge doesn't make him the most unique/deep killer with best designed power with infinite possibilities for unorthodox plays.
I know you can't sabo anymore, that's why I initially said "could", as in past tense. Was just doubling down on it's purpose.
I'm not saying he has a literal stratosphere of abilities with his traps, the outcomes could just always be different, therefore there is a lot of possibilities and replayability. It's always a spice up every other game as long as the Trapper themselves is interesting. With something like Spirit though, once you've seen a few, you've really seen them all.
And flashlighting/DH'ing an attack isn't the same because that has little relation to a killers power. There's little difference between DH'ing a Trapper M1, than DH'ing a PH ranged attack. The only result in the end, is you gained distance in a chase, specifically, more distance in PH's case. DH'ing through a trap, depending on it's placement can mean a lot more than just "Did you hit or not him".
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Yeah I don't like pity. I'd rather be flashlight spammed and t-bagged at the exit gates. I just make sure to force them out, even if they're hesitant.
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It's amazing to me, because this feels like old Dead By Daylight. What I mean by that, is old DBD had so much soul, love, and passion even if the game was a really REALLY crappy broken mess. There was something so charming and enjoyable about it though. While I admit the map isn't the most fair or fun to play on, I miss when DBD didn't care much for balance like it does now. Sounds like people are up in flames over the map, but at least I can stop to smell the roses. Great love letter for us SH fans too.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367712#Comment_1367712
I agree with most of what you said except a few things. Oni definitely requires skill. Just like Myers he's an m1 killer until the game has gone on for a good minute and then he juices up and can snowball insanely well. I love trapper and the idea of him, but in practice he's really just not a killer that thrives in this game and requires a great amount of game knowledge and skill to be of any use. He also has to sacrifice most of the beginning of the game to set up. Hag is just trapper but better.
The Devs definitely need to stop and just fix the game for awhile though. I think that's something everyone can agree with
I never said he didn't require any skill. You're right, that's something I'm not sure I'd agree with OP on even. The killers are shallow, but I wouldn't say all or most are braindead to use.
@Kebek said:
@tixerp Man, sabotaging traps is no longer possible and overall that's like saying that counterplay to nurse is to use flashlight to cancel her blinks. Can it happen ? Yes. Can you do it reliably for normal gameplay ? No. You also use DH through PH's power or blind him to miss it, see interactions are there. Oddball for PH is to randomly lay down your "lava" for survivor to randomly walk into it, another interaction just like trapper.
Trapper just like every other killer is you trap them or you don't. It's honestly the same thing done differently just like all killers.
Sabotaging a trap for Trapper means changing the game plan, while Nurse or PH being flashlighted is nowhere near the same because they can just try again immediately. There's no long term outcome, It's not the same argument at all, and you're only cherry picking one example.
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367914#Comment_1367914
What exactly do you even imagine in deep gameplay ? Like trapper sure needs to know where to place traps but that's it. Once you know the good spots by either playing him for a bit or watching other players play him, then what. You trap a good spot in a place you want to defend and survivor either steps in it because you chased them there or they evade it if they know about it thus it's used for zoning just like PH, Demo etc use their power. Bear traps aren't as deep as you say at all, you either know good spots or you don't. What mindgame is there in knowing the spot or know, survivor either saw you or didn't, that's not a mindgame.
Old Freddy sure was unique which wasn't necessary good for the game. Overall he was about juggling survivors and knowing timing of his transition. He also held the crown of beiiing impossible to juke, extremely unfun and unskillful power mind you. You can lose chase (win it in other words) against every killer in the game besides old freddy. No matter what strategy you used, whenver you would get away his wallhacks would just find you for him. Nobody liked the forced loop fiesta he was forcing everyone to do. He had annoying RNG based stall and wallhacks, not a recipe for fun match.
I probably won't be able to see why you think new killers are lacking "profoundness of thought” compared to old ones. To me they seem well designed with right amout of depth and strategy.
There is an interaction between Trapper and the survivor, that allows for counterplay. You can deadhard through a trap, bodyblock/flashlight the killer into a trap, could sabotage a trap. You could even put an oddball trap in a weird location and spend your entire game planning around getting that last survivor to walk into it. Just to name a few interactions off the top of my head. PH, when he does his ranged attack, he either hits, misses, or cancels and M1’s.
With some of these new killers there is nowhere near the same amount of interaction between killer and survivor. It’s binary, It’s either: “You hit or you don’t”.
Like I said, watch the video I mentioned.
@CronaWins said:
It's a casual game, not a competitive one.
There is very little skill involved when playing both killer and survivor.
If your looking for 'skillshots' then your looking in the wrong place.
You’re right. It’s not a competitive game. That’s why I’d rather them not to try and keep making these complicated killers at an attempt to be balanced, when in reality the killer is shallow anyway.
Just make something simple, easy to pick up and play, and hard to master. Fun for both new, and experienced players, and both sides if well designed.
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I feel pretty much the same way about PH, as of rn. Love playing him, feels really good to land all the ranged attacks and knowing when to cage and when to hook. Except I’d say I think he’s a solid B, maybe high B tier. I think survivors just don’t know how to play against him yet, so games are going by really easily. If you play against him like any other killer, then of course you’re gonna get rolled. It’s like the opposite of old Freddy, where killers didn’t adapt and make new strategies for him, and ended up getting bodied when trying to play him like any other killer.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367846#Comment_1367846
Start getting good sure, well enough to keep up with really good survivors though? Thats where what youre saying breaks down and where the issue lies. A 60 hour nurse probably isnt going to be good enough to be a full stack 4 man swf team of r1s. In fact theyll probably get smacked. A 60 hour freddy can put up a good fight. He'll probably only get 2 but at least hes hanging. If the level of skill requirement were equal on both sides id be inclined to agree with you. Its just not, and again they only have to do it once. Mastering a killers power and how/where to apply it takes a lot of patience and time.
Well thats what rank is for, Dingus. It’s busted as all hell right now, But otherwise a 60 hour Nurse won’t be even going up against Rank 1’s if she can’t handle it. Even if she can’t, everyone has their first experience with it. Failure is a part of game design, and learning.
Even a 200 hour Nurse won’t be facing against Rank 1’s if she’s not at that level yet. But a skillful 30 hour Nurse, maybe she’s already at Rank 4. Get what I’m saying? Their skill level is dependent entirely on the player themselves, and not the shallowness/easiness of the killer.
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@Kebek said:
@tixerp What new killers with complex powers are you talking about ? PH and Demo are only recent killer with a more deep power. Last complex power we got besides those 2 was Spirit and that was ages ago and it still isn't even that deep.
Also killers like trapper take map knowledge since they are trapping killer, that's their whole shtick. They have many options but only few are actually used. Nobody is going waste time by trapping obvious places and even in the good spots they still completely rely on survivors walking into them and not rushing them to death since set-up time for them can be horrendous.
Ofc players want strong killers that are skillful to use but that's not all we want. We want diversity of playstyles which also means killers for more casual players and nobody wants to play crap killers so making them weak would just cause them never getting used. If you consider PH lacking depth then you're probably not thinking hard enough when you play him. He's really fun and engaging when you outplay survivor by perfectly predicting where they will go through walls without even seeing them (just like nurse btw). PH is another great addition to killer roster, survivors just complain since he's another good killer that can catch them and isn't free loopfest like some of the old killers. He has a lot of depth to him, it just seems like you don't see it.
PH, Demo, and Spirit AREN’T that deep, is my point. They just have a bunch of different utilities to make them FEEL complex, when in reality their gameplay is shallow and easy.
That “level of depth” with PH where you hit someone through a wall is a perfect example of “immediacy of thought and not profoundness of thought”.
That is intentionally how you’re supposed to use the power. That’s its main purpose. So it might FEEL like a big brain skill shot, when in reality its a little shallow compared to the tons of mindgames and strategies given to you with beartraps. Not very deep if it’s not the player actively improvising and thinking outside the box. Not that you can’t at all with PH, mind you.
Also to mention the other killers like you said, Oni, nu Doc, nu Freddy. Freddy’s change is something else relevant. Old Freddy, I can understand why people hated, but it’s sad to see it go because he was one of the most creative killers we’ve ever seen in a while. The problem is you couldn’t play him like every other killer, and people couldn’t try to adapt and create new strategy. If you still don’t get what I mean, watch Otzdarva’s video titled “RIP Old Freddy”. He mentions exactly what I’m talking about, and summarizes it better than I can.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367771#Comment_1367771
They were simple to pick up (nurse aside) but take a really long time to master. Unless you master them you cant compete with the top teams of survivors. Survivors on the otherhand require half the time and once you know it you know it for all the characters. Thats stupid and honestly kind of backwards. Theres 4 survivors competing against one killer. It should be harder to learn that role. Reducing the skill ceiling on the newer killers makes them a little more accessible and reduces the stress level of the killer role in general. Ive said this before and ill say it again, playing freddy and doc is as close to casual on killer side as you get and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.
As for creativity, youre just simply wrong. Theres tons of play styles to go along with the crap ton of perks for each killer including the simple ones. Not everyone runs bbq and pop or forever freddy on fred. Ive done all kinds of ######### with those 2 characters people werent expecting. I mean how many different ways are you expecting billy to use his saw?
Its fine if some killers are stupid hard to play, thats good. Its also fine if some killers are easy to play, thats good too. Both are healthy for the game.
I don’t know of anyone who took more than 60 hours to start getting good at a killer like Nurse or Billy. It’s not hard to “master” killers, I think there’s just a large amount of casual players in the DBD fanbase, rightfully so. But even when casuals play these killers, its okay, because the skill floor is not only low, but the skill ceiling is very high. That’s good game design. It’s simple enough for someone who doesn’t even play games to understand/pickup and play like you said, and also highly rewards players who put in the hours and effort to master that character. Like Kirby game design.
Like you said, theres a place for both of these killers in the game obviously. That’s not what I’m trying to discredit.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367689#Comment_1367689
Exactly. Its like they expect you to get a masters degree before youre allowed to kill them and all they need to do is run in circles
@Kebek said:
Ever though that not all people want to fry their brain when playing killer ? What's wrong with more casual powers that are strong. None of the "unskilled" powers you named are as fast at downing as those that require more skill to be used. Also I can't belive you called powers of Demo, Doc or Deathslinger unskilled. It feels like you never played them, I can understand Freddy but DS or Demo ? Seriously, you must be the best player in DBD if you can hit all of their skillshots 100% of the time at every opportunity or you just don't know what you're even talking about.
It's not like playing survivor requires insane amount of skill, perfect timing, predictions, aiming and all that. If anything casual M1 killer are boring since you can loop them into oblivion without much thought. Killers are supposed to be intimidating, not your toy.
Old killers didn't demand you to be a god, but it demanded a different level of skill and creativity than now, while ALSO being 1000x more simple. That's the genius to them.
New killers now have 3 different utilities, with a million different descriptions, and a power meter, and this that and the other, because the devs want to make a "balanced" killer. Which I can appreciate, and obviously they've gotten something right before. But it's nowhere near as stimulating as playing older killers who have much better design.
With Spirit, you either phase hit, or don't. Sure, you might "mindgame" or catch up in speed, but there's not many other outcomes. Trapper on the other hand, is much simpler and has infinitely more unique gameplay. Just watching how a Trapper conceives a plan, shows gameplay that is different from every other player, because it allows everybody to be immensely creative with it. Spirit for the most part? Pretty much all the same.
It's disheartening to hear the DBD fanbase wants more and more powerful killers, with little thought. You can have a powerful killer. Those are arguably the most interesting. Just make their level of depth great. It's like poetry. You don't want the immediacy of thought, you want the profoundness of thought.
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I cannot say I agree about Pyramid Head, maybe to an extent, but YES, I'm so glad someone else realizes what's happening to new killers. Everyone pay attention to what he's saying there.
Freddy, Doc, Oni, Plague; A lot of new killers have this same problem where their power is either something you do or don't. It's not something as exciting and genius as Trapper, where you have a million options, from only one variable. THAT is a good killer design. Give players a simple unique power, and let them be as creative as possible with it. Stop making these convoluted dictionary long description killers at an attempt of making a more balanced one. Even Pyramid Head unfortunately is guilty of this.
Billy? You have a chainsaw. Be creative with it. No charge up meter, no flashy icons, no bells and whistle, just a good design. Same for Huntress, Hag, Trapper, Wraith, etc.
I feel it started going downhill starting with Spirit. We've seen our comebacks like Deathslinger, but for the most part, I think the best things the devs can do to address this, is stop making a new chapter for a moment, and instead REFINE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE. Seriously, we're at 20 killers already. There's so much to work with, and so much wasted potential in this game. When it comes to designing killers, it's like anything else in life: Less is More.
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... Man I dunno crossover lore is just all ######### up.
Good point though. Maybe The Entity just gave Cheryl her initial appearance as a memory of what happened. Kind of like what it does with maps. Just a recreation of a dark moment in history.
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@Witas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367661#Comment_1367661
Not neccesarily, I'd be willing to pay the $15 price point, assuming the skin's quality was wayyy above average, which it currently isn't. The voice and animations have to also be different for this purchase to be acceptable at all, but with those features I think it would be acceptable.
I still think $15 is a ridiculous price personally. It singlehandedly costs more than 2 DLCs, and almost the price of the game itself. At this rate, BHVR's gonna make this game free to play and go off the deep end for skins and prices.
IMO prices should be:
Green: $3
Purple: $6
Legendary: $8-$10
BHVR used to be more consumer friendly. There used to be some cool cosmetic packs for only $3 that have way more than you could ever buy in the store right now with double that amount.
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I was thinking that too, until I got back to rank 12 and up. I stopped playing the game for a while, so rank reset set my killer to 20, and 20 - 13 has ridiculous queue times for some reason. I'm not sure what it could be. Maybe little newer players? Majority of players are in higher ranks?
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Miscommunication and varying levels of player difficulty is what the game was made in mind with. It's an asymmetrical horror game. It's not a meticulous balanced competitive shooter like Rainbow Six.
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And price. $8-$10 is the absolute maximum someone should be asked to buy a cosmetic for. Even that's a bit pricey. But for Legendary, sure.
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My guess is he's not the easiest killer to play. He requires a little bit of skill and a shakeup from how you usually play killer.
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I enjoy it. Wouldn't change anything besides maybe add some more vaults. Maybe drop downs or pallets.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1366409#Comment_1366409
Pretty much what I'm talking about right here.
I think they should just do a suggestion that I've seen here before, and put shards into the rift. Where they would go is where the bad charms would get taken out. Or hell, even like the tiniest amount of auric cells so over a few rifts somebody could save up just a tiny bit for a cell-exclusive cosmetic piece or something. I don't know, anything that would be more appealing than these useless ugly charms that won't even get used. I'm even fine with the cool ones as I said, because there's gotta be some sort of filler. That cell idea would be nice because I, for example have something like 1020 or 1040 cells or something of spare cells after the cells I spend on the rift pass, and it would be nice if instead of those charms I was able to earn a tiny bit of cells to be able to purchase a cell-exclusive set or something since I'm not even 100 off.
This times a million. Get a dev to see this somehow.
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Well if it starts to become an expectation for killers to give hatch when survivors dont wiggle, then yeah no im not giving any survivors hatch anymore. You play by MY book dude lol.
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Adding a perk to fix a problem in a game is never a good idea.
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More cosmetics and more multiplayer trends. Absolutely hate it too. I'd maybe find them interesting if they made sense. Make them something a survivor/killer would actually have as a goodluck charm. Dwight could have his nametag/pen pocket on his chest. Bill could have a pack of cigarettes. Cheryl could have an accurate sized Seal in her breast pocket...
But no, we get dumb funko pops and microscopic circles. Just remove these dumb immersion breaking microtransactions from the game if you're not gonna change 'em BHVR.
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No one hates Cheryl or is tunneling her. At least hasn't happened to me or anyone I know of. If you did, it's either because your character is brand new and perkless, or wrong place wrong time.
I do wonder if the community has something against us SH fans with this chapter though. Sounds like a lot of people are complaining for 1000 reasons but... I'm just chillin. Thanks for the SH DLC BHVR lol.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1365930#Comment_1365930
What exactly do you mean? If they revealed X is gay, nothing would change. You make it seem like some Lore would materially change the game. DBD is the perfect game, it features human characters with past lives and stories. Why can't some of them happen to be straight or gay? Not to mention the fact that you claim to have LGBTQ friends, as if that shields your comments from scrutiny or gives you greater credibility or less bias. In fact imo it comes across as highly suspect. It's like the people that engage or make racial statements but declare "I'm not racist, I donate to the NAACP." It's an attempt to insulate their comments or actions so that their declaration means they couldn't possibly be homophobic or racist.
Because survivors used to be well written and vague enough to be blank slate. No character to my knowledge is blatantly heterosexual, because there's no point in talking about it in DBD. It's not the game to bring up sexuality and race politics. It just feels shoehorned. Head canon it if you want, but don't make it a point into every players face.
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@OhMyWords said:
They'll never fix this game. Keep buying DLC's, and maybe they will, in the next decade.
No actually, do the opposite. Speak with your wallet. If BHVR doesn't get their money, then they're under pressure to see what the community wants instead.
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I agree. Games used to be something used to escape reality, but now times are different. Games/Movies/People/Companies can't just be apolitical anymore, because if you're not with us, then you're against us.
I have nothing against the LGBT community. I'm actually friends with a lot of people in the queer art scene in Seattle. And I think there's potential for gay characters and representation... In the right games, with the right execution. Which I feel isn't something capitalized on a lot. Really, why DBD of all games? I get realistically it's because the devs themselves support LGBT, but does that really make it fitting?
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Yes. Please. This is all I want. We have 20 killers, and even more survivors. There is so much in DBD now compared to late 2018.
Look at the simplicity and genius of early killers and mechanics compared to more and more complicated meter killers we have now. Just take a step back, and refine everything we have. Fix bugs, QOL changes, killer reworks, more map variants/changes, maybe more items and base perks, details like more 1st person moris. Just slow down and make what we have good.
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It sounds cool, but I'm not sure. I'd have to hear of an example, because my first thought is it sounds like it detracts a lot from the main game. It works very well for something slow paced and brooding like Silent Hill, but DBD is more quick high tension. Would also be ball busting for solo queue. But then again, I dunno what kind of puzzle we're talking about here.
Something like an item hunt/combining items/putting items in certain areas to start gen progress is kinda what I had in mind for earlygame rework.