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ratcoffee
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@Reinami said:
I just wonder why when its a killer perk, why do they hotfix it, but when its a survivor perk, we have to wait 6+months for it?
Yeah, that's so true. They would never, ever make a change to a survivor perk and then realize "hey, that's blatantly overpowered" and revert it. Now let me just take a sip of my morning cup of coffee…
Well that's odd then. What appears to be on screen is exact evidence of the thing you said never happens. If this image is really true, that must mean that you're incorrect, and the factor that goes into something taking 6+ months to fix is not Killer vs Survivor.
I think the far more likely culprit is that in past, BHVR has not had as much focus on going back to update old, problematic stuff, but as time has gone on they've gotten better at addressing it. It took however many years to update old Dead Hard, that got bumped down to the better part of a year with the Gen Kick meta, half a year with Made For This and FTP Buckle Up, and now they're getting better at fixing the most blatantly broken stuff at every opportunity.
A second factor would be that many of the things someone could complain about in terms of being in the game for too long are complex fixes. MFT complaints weren't going to stop if they bumped it to 2% or even 1%, FTP complaints weren't going to go down if they reduced the Buckle Up endurance by a few seconds; they needed to brainstorm, code, internally test, adjust, PTB, make further adjustments, and release an entirely new, but comparable, effect. With something that just has a numbers problem, they can easily adjust the numbers.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850541#Comment_3850541
Does that really matter? People defend DS going up to 4 seconds all the time, and you know they use it.
I play both sides and never use DS as survivor, and I think 4 second DS is fine
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@SadakoBFF said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850460#Comment_3850460
None, the match was like 2-3 minutes
So they hate hexes now?
My bet is they hate Thrill specifically because of the recent buff. That and the 4 hooks with 0 gens, they probably assumed there was no chance of a comeback. Bad reason imo , but that's probably what it is
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@ThatRyanB said:
Thanks for providing this perspective on the Thrill of the Hunt change! We've been sharing feedback on this with the team and can confirm that we have plans to address this perk in an upcoming hotfix. Stay tuned for details!
Thanks for this update. I had been spam-playing Thrill + Undying + Devour Hope + some other hex (generally crowd control or blood favor) and recording the games to make the point. Knowing it's going to be addressed soon, I don't have to keep playing this build that feels just too good
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Yeah, after going against the build multiple times, I will just stop playing until they do something about it. I am not wasting my time with this game, because the Devs decide to make a change they obviously did not understand.
Sucks for the Winter Event when it is not fixed until then, but it is what it is.
good news i hope
edit: i am going to become the joker
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850193#Comment_3850193
And all are of the same 1 opinion on every other issue as well, like game journalists. You're getting 1 viewpoint, spread across multiple people. There's no discussion to be had when everyone simply jumps to, and agrees to, the conclusion from the get go.
all are of the same 1 opinion… like game journalists
ah, that explains a WHOLE lot
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Please also do Counterforce so we can highlight how little it actually changes for the first totem
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"A content creator"
I've seen videos from the German Boomer Frog, the Guy Who Mains Speed, the Meat Alternative, and the Handsome Spanish Otter (not naming them, but if you know you know). Don't put this on one person, at least 4 major content creators think the perk is over-buffed.
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just played a game as wraith with an intentionally mediocre build (Thrill, Undying, Retribution, Haunted Ground) and got to 8 hooks with 2 gens left even after giving up 2 flashlight saves so sounds like a skill issue tbh
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849708#Comment_3849708
The only hex worth it is devour. Ruin is horrible. Regression is 1/4th the rate of survivor Progression. Meaning that for ruin to regress an entire gen, it would take 360 seconds, not 90 seconds. The regression you get from ruin is very little. Even if survivors are off the gen for a full minute, they only need to hop back on for 15 seconds to counteract the ruin effect.
Ruin only regressed the gen at 1/4 the rate of repair speeds? Good. Could you imagine if killers could regress gens faster than survivors could repair them?
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I literally just had a game where I was able to set my teammate up for a flashlight saves because I saw their aura while I was dying and crawled in a direction where I thought the killer would face them
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849527#Comment_3849527
Well he's not wrong. Get a lucky 2-hook on 2 people, and camp the last 1 in endgame. Follows the flow of the average match perfectly. I'm just not lucky enough to get 2-hooks, especially because of the 70-second hooks + potential Reassurance.
ooh buddy, if you think that's the average game you got another thing coming
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@Lady_Elisabeth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848096#Comment_3848096
I'm not talking about tunneling. I am talking about already winning, chasing down everyone — including the person just unhooked — and then letting everyone just bleed out for no reason. And, what about this did you get that I was being a jerk?
As you can probably tell from this thread, there's a certain subset of people who think that any seemingly toxic behavior from killer players is explainable (and excusable) because of toxic survivor players, and who are very dedicated to making sure they're among the first people to weigh in on any survivor complaining about toxicity from killers. The fact that they are this dedicated to going out of their way to downplay survivor complaints - some might say gaslighting survivors - disproves their whole point; they're actively going out of their way to antagonize survivor players.
In any case, it's pretty safe to ignore anyone who blames you for the negative behavior you experienced without knowing a single thing about the game you played
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849468#Comment_3849468
win within 5 hooks. it is not impossible. it is more realistic than the killer winning with 12 hooks.
i'm cackling dude this is the best joke i've heard in a long time
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
Still getting needless angry bait posts from people mad I pointed out the perk's counters should be buffed instead of nerfing a perk that actually makes hexes viable.
Please don't respond to my posts again. You will not change my mind. The perk probably does need a slight reduction but it having synergy with hexes is fine, intended gameplay.
The perk probably does need a slight reduction
This is literally the point we are all making. The fact it has synergy with hexes is fine, the problem is solely that the numbers are too high right now
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847183#Comment_3847183
Terrible logic honestly. So what should the killer do give up? Lmao, I have been in a lot of situations where I killed someone with one Gen left and killed the rest because of it.
1 kill is better than zero. You aren’t entitled to an escape just because your team is doing good.
There's nothing wrong with fishing for a participation trophy, killers are allowed to do whatever they want, and sometimes one late-game kill after a hard game can lead to a win.
All I'm saying is most killers are realistic and have their expectations fairly low when struggling to even get 1 kill with only the last gen to complete.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847424#Comment_3847424
Ok, so, this is largely related to the common blackbird, or eurasian blackbird. Turdus Merula, if you want the scientific name.
Take this male:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZGBJZNLAZG32/image.jpeg
You’ll look at this bird and think: That’s a black bird, alright. It has a strikingly not-black beak and a similarly coloured ring around the eyes, but otherwise, it’s a black bird. Good. Makes sense.
But then we look at a female blackbird:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IX4XUFITKND9/image.jpeg
Hm. Black isn’t how I would describe this one.
Now, I don’t know about you, but I’m also able to name at least 3 other birds that are also black within the same range. One of them being a species that we, as DbD players, are very familiar with. Crows.
Take this carrion crow. Other than maybe jackdaws, these are easily the most common ‘true’ crow across western Europe.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QWC0P8UAQLW9/image.jpeg
There’s some iridescense going on in the wings and the back, but you don’t need me to tell you that these crows are entirely black birds. Moreso than the male blackbird, too.
Moreover, carrion crows aren’t sexually dimorphic, which means that males and females don’t have any easily indentifiable differences in their appearance.So… what’s up there? Why did blackbirds come to be called that, when there’s other, blacker birds in the same range?
Well!The Old English meaning of ‘bird’ was actually a bit more specialised. Where ‘bird’ means any and all feathered creature now, back then, ‘bird’ only referred to birds of a smaller size.
Larger birds were called ‘fowl’. You can still see this in ‘waterfowl’ and ‘peafowl’, for example. Crows fell under ‘fowl’ as well. I’m not sure what the threshold between bird and fowl was, but I imagine it was somewhere around the wood pigeon.
So then, since our sweet little turd(us) bird was the only commonly known small black bird back then, it could get away with simply being called ‘blackbird’. Effectively just meaning ‘small black bird’.
Both blackbirds pics are from:
https://ebird.org/species/eurbla
Carrion crow pic from:
https://www.birdguides.com/gallery/birds/corvus-corone/990443/
That's some pretty cool linguistic history! Thanks for the bird facts!
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@GentlemanFridge said:
On a linguistic level, it’s fascinating how “literally” has become something of a homonym, in that it seems to have become interchangeable with “actually”. This kind of Semantic Shift seems especially common in English. It’s to be expected, given the innumerable amount of external influences, especially now that English has more or less become the language of the internet.
I also have a somewhat related etymological fun fact about blackbirds, if anyone’s interested
!subscribe-to Bird Facts
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Edit: I misread the title as "crybully" oops
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Was going through my old media and saw this and feel it's once again relevant.
I previously said I had to "eat my words" with regards this post because of a slugging experiment that happened that people were talking about here, but after returning from an extended break that discourse about mass slugging seems overblown based on my experience.
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@Vishlumbra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847290#Comment_3847290
I get what you're saying, and while builds like Boil Over and flashlight squads get their share of scrutiny, the difference is that these tactics are often still treated as just part of the game, sometimes even seen as "fun" or "memes." On the other hand, perks like Shoulder the Burden are patched in response to complaints about tunneling, and they're potentially game-breaking, but they don't seem to be getting the same level of scrutiny. The balance is skewed, and I think it's worth considering whether these "anti-fun" survivor tactics are equally being looked at from the perspective of fairness.
EDIT:
Do you both think Shoulder the Burden is just fine as it is? If so, then I suppose we’re at an impasse, because I can clearly see the potential implications it has on balance, while it seems like you don’t.
I don't think StB is good as it is, because it generally fails to alleviate the problem it was designed to address in solo queue (or at least depends on a level of coordination solo teammates are unable to have) while being extremely effective in SWF; it essentially widens the gap between solo and SWF.
I think the problem is that we fundamentally disagree on the community's reaction to StB. You think people are not giving it scrutiny, but I've seen dozens of posts from people complaining about it, such as this one from an unknown user who seems to think the perk makes it so the killer has to get 20 hooks for a 4k
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@Vishlumbra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847271#Comment_3847271
What I meant by my quote is that there are plenty of toxic and frustrating survivor builds, like Boil Over or even some flashlight and balance build combos, that often get laughed off or are considered "fun," without considering the killer's perspective. The issue is that while killers are often criticized for tunneling or slugging, survivor tactics that are equally anti-fun don't get the same scrutiny. Shoulder the Burden feels like it was added to counter tunneling, but it might actually create more problems, especially considering the current balance. The standard should be equal for both sides, and this perk could potentially tip the scales too far in survivors' favor.
And what I'm saying is that Boil Over builds tend to get all sorts of scrutiny (and the community's most common nickname for 4-flashlight builds is "bully squads"), so I'm confused why you would bring them up when talking about survivor builds that don't get scrutiny.
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@Vishlumbra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847181#Comment_3847181
Your perspective highlights some important points about empathy and fair play, but there are a few key aspects to consider regarding balance and strategy in Dead by Daylight.
First, while it’s true that killers like Pig and Sadako can often avoid tunneling due to their built-in slowdown, (which both by most standards are weak killers) not all killers have the luxury of such mechanics. Killers with weaker slowdown or map control often face intense pressure when survivors play efficiently. In those situations, tunneling or slugging isn’t about being “vile”—it’s about staying competitive in a game that heavily rewards gen-rushing and coordination. The speed at which games can progress sometimes forces killers to make hard decisions just to keep up.
Second, Shoulder the Burden has the potential to completely upend this balance. While you frame it as merely transferring hook stages, it strategically delays the game. Survivors using the perk wisely can force killers into an endless loop of hooks, where progress toward eliminating survivors is reset over and over. For killers already struggling to keep up, this doesn’t just discourage tunneling—it outright eliminates their ability to close out the game. That’s not just unbalanced; it removes their agency entirely.
Finally, while empathy and treating others kindly are important values, gameplay strategy doesn’t negate those. Wanting to play competitively isn’t about ignoring someone else’s fun; it’s about engaging with the mechanics and dynamics of the game as they currently stand. If survivors are given tools like Shoulder the Burden that significantly prolong matches and punish standard current strategies, it’s only natural that killers will turn to slugging or other tactics to compensate. These strategies aren’t about being mean—they emerge because of the game’s inherent imbalance when survivors bring powerful perks.
Empathy should go both ways. If we focus solely on survivors’ fun while ignoring how these changes might make killers feel powerless or frustrated, the game’s balance will continue to lean toward one side. A better approach would be to create balance that rewards creative, fun playstyles for both sides, without patching over issues with overpowered perks that punish killers for simply trying to play the game.
BTW I also main Sadako, love Pig too!
EDIT:
Your point about fun and empathy is valid, but it’s important to recognize that toxic behavior can occur on both sides. While killers are often blamed for tunneling or slugging, there’s far less scrutiny when survivors employ similarly frustrating tactics that leave killers powerless.
For example, consider a coordinated Survivor Friends (SWF) team running Shoulder the Burden paired with perks like Boil Over, Breakout, Flip-Flop, and Decisive Strike, alongside flashlights. The synergy here is devastating. Survivors can not only extend hook states indefinitely but also make it nearly impossible to carry them to hooks, body-block effectively, and blind the killer during pickups. In these cases, killers are forced to drop survivors or give up entirely because the mechanics simply don’t allow counterplay. The team doesn’t even need to focus on objectives—they can turn the match into a prolonged, frustrating chase where the killer is made to feel like a punching bag.
This isn’t to say survivors shouldn’t play well or use creative strategies. Survivors playing efficiently and coordinating is part of the game. But when killers try to counter these strong tactics by adopting strategies like tunneling or slugging, they’re often painted as villains. Meanwhile, when survivors dominate a match through skill or coordination, it’s seen as justified or even entertaining.
The core issue is that Dead by Daylight’s mechanics often amplify this disparity. When survivors play exceptionally well and use synergistic builds, the killer can feel completely powerless. On the flip side, if a killer employs a strategy like tunneling, it’s seen as unfun or toxic. This double standard doesn’t foster empathy—it creates frustration on both sides.
Ultimately, if fun is the goal, the conversation needs to include both sides equally. Killers need tools to deal with strong survivor tactics without being vilified for using them. Likewise, survivors should have fun tools to outplay killers, but not in ways that leave killers without options. Fair balance is about ensuring neither side feels like they’re being forced into unfun situations where they have no say in the outcome.
I mean I have literally never seen Boil Over talked about with anything but disdain, so I don't see what you mean in your edit when you say "there's less scrutiny when survivors employ similarly frustrating tactics"
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getting 1 kill at 1 gen left is usually not gonna bring the game back anyway. tunneling someone when there's 1 gen left is usually the killer fishing for a participation trophy
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844501#Comment_3844501
Just don't walk into the drones.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844505#Comment_3844505
- Yes they do.
- "People played X character in a way I don't like therefore it is okay to harass people who play X character"
Wow you are exactly the kind of entitled serial harasser I am talking about.
Just don't run into the drones
Killer can have a drone at every usable tile
Only counter is therefore to run to unusable areas of the map
This gives free hits
Translation: "Don't like going against SM? Just give her free hits lol"
Why do so many defenses of annoying mechanics on either side boil down to this? "If you don't like this thing, do something that gives me free wins."
- Yes they do.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846003#Comment_3846003
Eyes of Belmont also has a secondary effect, which elevates it above old Dark Sense. Like I said, it's the weakest on this list, but it opens up some genuinely useful synergies and builds. There's a middle ground between "genuinely strong" and "worthless", and at minimum, that's where Eyes of Belmont is. It's a good, useful, reliable perk.
Strength in Shadows, your take rests on the idea that self healing is bad right now, which it's not. It's not overpowered like it used to be, but medkits are solidly useful and Inner Strength is equally a very solid perk. Strength in Shadows is considerably better than both. It's a damn good perk.
For Champion of Light, I think that's a very restrictive and odd way of looking at things. Sure, this perk has one specific perk that counteracts it (plus Lightborn partially counteracting it), but what are the chances the killer you're facing actually has it? I run CoL myself and I can confidently say I haven't seen Shadowborn once. That leaves it just a damn good perk in realistic matches.
Light-Footed removes the most important indicator in a lot of scenarios, which is why it's genuinely a great perk. Hard to know you're getting value, to be sure, but the value that's on the table is really useful. For Chemical Trap, it doesn't have to be a god pallet, just a safe one. Any pallet in the entire game that you can play while it's dropped is a viable spot for Chemical Trap, and using it leaves the killer in a lose/lose where they have to either waste time building Bloodlust or waste time catching back up with a Hindered slow.
Troubleshooter has the benefit of having multiple effects in one, and without the range restriction of Bond. It's on the weaker end of this list but it's unambiguously a good perk, more information is better than less information- and even if it's the same information, "as good as another very good perk" doesn't make it bad.
I disagree that Eye of Belmont's secondary effect is actually all that great, asit only applies to perks that don't really benefit all that much from extra duration.
I should clarify what I mean about Champion of Light because I admittedly messed up describing it the first time: I do think it is a solid perk, but because of the timing on reworked Shadowborn, I can see why someone would feel the message from the developers was "anything survivors get, killers will get something that directly counteracts it, so don't get too cocky." I agree that it's good, I just wanted to explain the baggage some survivors would have around it with regards the claim "survivors can't just have a good perk"
Other than that I think we've already explained our differences of opinion so I guess we'll just need to agree to disagree
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845980#Comment_3845980
Trevor: Eyes of Belmont. This is the weakest perk on this little list, but I still think its base effect and the synergies it has leave it being genuinely good overall.
Lara: Finesse unambiguously, that's obviously a strong perk. I would argue Hardened is underrated too, but to be fair, I did say "genuinely strong" so it may not reach that specific bar.
Sable: Strength in Shadows is the best source of self healing by a wide margin, it's crazy good. Wicked is also very good, but primarily as a means of evading the killer and stopping yourself from being opportunistically tunnelled. The basement-Deliverance effect has high potential, but isn't reliable, that's not why the perk is strong.
Alan: Champion of Light. I feel like his other two perks being so undertuned left people glossing over this one? But seriously, it's a damn good chase perk.
Ellen: Light-Footed and Chemical Trap. Both have an asterisk, but neither asterisk is about their strength- just that Light-Footed can be kind of hard to tell how much it's doing in the moment, and Chemical Trap needs careful decision making about where and when to use it. Both are still very good perks.
Nic Cage: Dramaturgy is a solid chase perk that has some slight RNG elements that could either make it better or riskier, and Plot Twist is a strong and versatile perk.
Gabriel: Obviously he released with Made For This, but Troubleshooter has been a genuinely good perk since release too.
I think cutting things off there is appropriate for "recent", that's back to well over a year ago. Minus the DnD characters and maybe Trevor based on your personal line for "strong", all of those characters have good choices.
Eyes of Belmont's primary effect is a worse version of old Dark Sense, a perk so middling it got reworked a while back.
Finesse, ok, I can agree with that
Strength in Shadows only seems good because the raw self-heal speed is better than most other sources of self-heal, because self-heal is garbo rn. IMO "good for a self heal perk" isn't the same thing as "good"
Champion of Light is decent I guess, but it did feel weird to have Shadowborn reworked into a perk that counteracted the CoL at the same time. This speaks to the frustration OP had - why does the solid survivor perk have to drop alongside a perk that neutralizes it? It makes it feel like survivors aren't allowed to have nice things.
Lightfooted is alright, but I can't agree that removing only one of half a dozen positional indicators for survivor reaches "great" status. Chem trap is solid if you get into a scenario where the killer has to break a god pallet, but I think calling it "great" is an overestimate of how reliable it is to get the chance to use effectively.
Dramaturgy, also I think fair to say it's good.
Troubleshooter imo doesn't do anything that isn't also accomplished by bringing bond + using proper camera angles in chase, as you can generally tell who's working on what gen with bond & killer movement a few seconds after a pallet drop is generally quite predictable, so imo it's middling rather than "good"
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@jesterkind said:
Not that I agree with the change Shoulder The Burden got either, but it's extremely dramatic to claim that survivors don't get strong perks because of it, imo.
The most recent releases have all had at least one genuinely strong perk, except for the DnD chapter. That one's an outlier, those perks were only okay.
What are those "genuinely strong" perks
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They nerfed shoulder the burden in a way that doesn't significantly change much for SWF but makes it even less viable in solo, while still rewarding the proxy camping → tunneling strat it's supposed to punish (if the killer pays attention)
lol. lmao, even. rofl, if you will.
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I used to get the DM Screen badge that got released with Vecna confuses with the employee badge.
It's also possible the killer was a subtle cheater who hacked in all the badges including the employee one.
There is also the possibility that it was an employee, but I think that's less likely than a confusing badge or a subtle cheater
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843983#Comment_3843983
What exactly is casual about a mode that's easymode for one side and a stressful experience for the other?
The users I was responding to were complaining that the people they go against, both on the survivor and killer side, are not competetive enough.
Although pubs may be a highly competetive environment for you, they clearly aren't for Daniel and BPMain, so I was giving them advice on how they could get something that might be closer to the experience they want.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843831#Comment_3843831
another reason why mmr/sbmm is pointless, I feel.
I supported mmr because I thought I'd face killers like you more consistently
@danielmaster87 said:
Another reason for me not to play the game right now.
Edit: On the other hand, I just saw the 3x BP bonus.
Yall could always join the DBDLeague discord if you want to play non-casually
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839253#Comment_3839253
I read the rest, by you lost me at "tunneling at 5 gens." It tells me what your caliber of team is, which is giving out several hooks before a single gen has been done, when at least 2 should be done after the 1st chase. It also tells me that you don't realize that such a result can only come as a result of survivors looping bad/being inefficient on gens. Instead, you assume that it's all the killer, and all the OP stuff he can supposedly do. Shocking, from someone who's played killer and SWF for 7 years. I get that there's killers who just destroy teams and then abuse that position to be toxic. But aren't those killers just getting lucky? Of all the killer matches you've played, surely you've never had it that easy? So I think you need to look at the real problem: matchmaking. MMR, as it functions now, sort of orchestrates matches. It forces mismatches to hide the imbalance of the game. In reality, when both sides play well, survivors beat killer 9/10 times. But in your average solo match you never see it, because either you're a good survivor and you get dragged down by bad teammates, or you and your teammates are bad, and get forced into a game with a good killer anyway. So I don't like to push stereotypes, but all those toxic Wraiths (it's always him who they play), they act that way because they hardly ever win. They're angry, because the moment they get put against decent survivor teams, loss after loss. That's the experience of most killers. These guys just choose to take it out on other people.
When people say "tunnel at 5 gens" they mean "actively play with intent to tunnel from the beginning of the game." It has nothing to do with when the first survivor dies and everything to do with the killer's attitude when the cinematic load-in shot plays.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840658#Comment_3840658
I'm using a uniform distribution. (And I know a bit of statistics and stochastics, no need to explain that part.)
You draw values, they get distributed on an axis. If it's a bell curve, it's a binomial.
If it's a horizontal line, it's uniform.
I use an uniform one to draw escapes.
Everything else is a result of this.
You are using a uniform distribution 4 times to simulate the results of a match. Using the same uniform distribution a specific number of times to choose between exactly two choices is exactly what a binomial distribution is used for.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836679#Comment_3836679
What are you even talking about. There is only one information available about the kills and it's 60%, from where are you pulling that gaussian? Try to be more explicit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836688#Comment_3836688
I believe you are correct. And I should never use the word "math", it makes it looks way more complicated than what it is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836771#Comment_3836771
It's all about the perception of the game.
Killer wins are defined as seen above. (I'm too tired to repeat all that)
Survivors (plural) win should naturally be the opposite but in practice it isn't. The vast majority of survivors only focus on their own escape: survivor (singular) win. Hence that regular ranting about 60% kill rate. That's why I looked at the win the way they are perceived.
But one of the points is that 50% gives a very low rate of win for the killer, which may explain why a while ago when the kill rate was balance for 50% survivor queues went up: it was high-mmr even at the basic killer level.
Draws are irrelevant because they are not a win. I'm not sure in English but in French it's called a "mach nul", one meaning being "the same as if it never happened" (nul et non avenu). They dont really have an equivalent for singular survivor wins as it's kind of all of nothing on that front. Nothing really interesting to take from that.
Yes, I've seen the 17% too, which is interesting, or would be if survivors cared that much about team wins. It's all about perception. (And I realize I've not updated the web app to also draw that curve, I'll do it if I recall tomorrow.)
We keep speaking about 40% escape rate mind you but the 48% escape rate in high MMR is also intersting (and explains why that level of play can be so frustrating). I know this detail doesn't escapes you and you expect it to be like that, as do I.
I see everything as system, that aside you may have a point directly in relation with mine. Let me think …
Yes, you are right. Hatch escapes are inflating the escape rate somewhat. Win perception on the survivor side may be lower than projected because of that. I'd love to be able to discriminate them out. There is no data about this though. If you can find some BHVR stat about hatch escapes, I'd love to try to include them.
47/37 I presume you are talking about the measured win rate results of the matches. It's about perception here again. I understand not everybody sees it like that but if it's not a win, its a loss (I guess I'm extremely competitive).
I fully agree opinion may diverge about this. I've simply provided a tool to have a better idea of what these statistics mean.
If other people draw different conclusions than mine and don't see why I'm only focused on win, it's all the same to me. (Once I believe I've explained myself sufficiently, and I believe I did.)
Opinions are subjective after all. I'd not call either of them biased though.
I'm perfectly happy with my survivor escape rate (about 60%*) and killer kill rate (about … a lot, I don't dare to say how high, with my main**), neither of which are matching these stats. But as you probably know, personal observations are hardly representative.
*) and I consider myself pretty average: it's mostly luck and stealth.
**) Nurse, relatively decent at it if I say so myself.
A binomial distribution (which is the mathematical distribution used in your simulation) contains discrete values that conform to a normal distribution (which is also sometimes called a gaussian distribution, as you mentioned) - or, in this case, a skewed gaussian distribution. I am "pulling that gaussian" from your own post
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839339#Comment_3839339
What's the point in this?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839343#Comment_3839343
Well, yes since the concept itself remains fun even with these changes. Unfortunately the the gameplay got much worse though.
…You can see why someone might look at your complaint as disingenuous, when you openly admit you see no reason to not engage in the very thing you're complaining about?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839329#Comment_3839329
If I wanted a gen rush fest I'd play a survivor with friends with stacked stuff in standard mode.
Then play survivor and don't gen rush? They added stun saves so it's now worthwhile opening chests and going for alturism.
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Queue survivor then?
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I might actually consider coming back for 2v8 - been on a break since just after Dracula's release. Hopefully the changes should reduce match volatility a little and make survivor feel less outright miserable to play
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BTW, I'm 99% sure that's the 4 stack that does world record escape speedrun attempts. They have the builds that squad usually brings. Although this extreme example should certainly be fixed, we shouldn't pretend a 4 stack specifically going all in on repair speed going against a meme build is representative of normal gameplay. Although it may feel like it, you don't regularly go against SWFs like this.
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@Jock21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837316#Comment_3837316
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OCA00KO0U4A8/screenshot-2024-11-10-004053.png
These were the builds the survivors were running, so no actual hacking needed when the game already gives the survivors all the necessary tools to create matches like this (and the survivors also get the courtesy for not getting shamed constantly for using such builds unlike the killers' builds counterpart).
Survivors get the courtesy for not getting shamed constantly
There's a thread like this twice a dayon the forums wym?
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
OP sorry you're fighting a losing battle here. Remember a majority of the player base plays survivor, and a many of those players have never even attempted to play killer. So don't be surprised when (predictably) you get a bunch of responses claiming how easy it is to win as killer, even at higher MMR, without ever camping or tunning from players who would get destroyed if they ever actually attempted to play as killer.
This isn't intended to be the usual "us vs. them" trolling - it's simply pointing out that many players come onto this forum offering opinions on something they have zero first-hand experience with.
A majority of the player base ... has never tried to play killer.
That's a rather extraordinary claim. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836602#Comment_3836602
Hooking a survivor can be countered by these things:
- Pallet Saves
- Flashlights
- Sparklers/Flashbang items
- Sabotaging hooks
And the following perks:
- Boil Over
- Breakout
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang
- Flip-Flop
- Power Struggle
- Saboteur
Survivors gain benefits directly related to being hooked, or unhooking others with these perks:
- Aftercare
- Babysitter
- Background Player
- Blood Rush
- Borrowed Time
- Breakdown
- Camaraderie
- Dead Hard
- Deliverance
- Kindred
- Off the Record
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- Second Wind
- Should the Burden (coming soon)
- Slippery Meat
- We'll Make it
On top of that, survivors have things like:
- Basekit BT
- Anti-Face Camp Mechanic
- 70 second hook stages
Lastly, the time it takes to hook a survivor, that is HOOK a survivor, not chase them, not find them, not down them. I'm saying, you have hit the survivor, and they are now on the ground, it takes:
2.7 second wipe animation + 3 second pickup animation + ~10 seconds to find a nearby hook (based on average hook distances) + 1.5 second hooking animation = 17.2 seconds (during which 3 other survivors are getting 51.6 seconds of gen progress on a required 450 seconds of progress (I.E. 11.4% of their objective done again NOT factoring in chase time, finding the survivor, breaking pallets, etc. That is just literally picking up the downed survivor and hooking them which is 8% of the killer's objective, the survivors are able to complete 11.4% of theirs)
Now, how many things counter slugging?
Well there is nothing basekit that does. What about perks?
- Adrenaline (arguable, but i'll include it)
- Boon: Exponential
- No mither (arguable again, but i'll include it)
- Tenacity
- Unbreakable
- We're Gonna Live Forever
Now lets look at perk usages from nightlight:
Hook perks:
- Boil Over - 3.04%
- Breakout - 1.82%
- Decisive Strike - 9.43%
- Flashbang - 3.38%
- Flip-Flop - 1.70%
- Power Struggle - 1.07%
- Saboteur - 2.16%
- Aftercare - 0.54%
- Babysitter - 1.11%
- Background Player - 4.10%
- Blood Rush - 0.48%
- Borrowed Time - 1.61%
- Breakdown - 0.53%
- Camaraderie - 0.14%
- Dead Hard - 10.80%
- Deliverance - 2.86%
- Kindred - 7.99%
- Off the Record - 7.09%
- Reassurance - 1.54%
- Resurgence - 5.43%
- Second Wind - 0.74%
- Should the Burden (coming soon) - 0% (not out yet)
- Slippery Meat - 0.86%
- We'll Make it - 8.20%
Slug Perks:
- Adrenaline - 13.94%
- Boon: Exponential - 1.59%
- No mither - 0.51%
- Tenacity - 1.54%
- Unbreakable - 9.96%
- We're Gonna Live Forever - 3.13%
Totaling all that up, in a given game with 4 survivors, you will see on average, out of 16 possible perks:
- 3 perks related to hooking
- 1 perk related to slugging
That again, doesn't factor in things like items, flashlights, toolboxes, or the basekit bt, or AFC mechanic or any other things.
On top of that, looking at the strength of the perks. If you hook survivors you might have to deal with perks like:
- Decisive Strike
- Dead Hard
- We'll Make It
- Deliverance
- Off the Record
For context, these perks are used in basically every single comp game ever for a reason.
Whereas on the slugging side, perks like:
- Adrenaline are a one time use and only really come in play under specific circumstances
- Boon Exponential is super easy to counter, because you probably can hear the totem if you down a survivor and they are in the range of it
- No mither is a joke of a perk
- Tenacity isn't really a hard counter and often just gets paired with unbreakable really
- Unbreakable is annoying but they can only use it once in a match, so once it is gone, it is gone and you don't have to worry about it anymore. On top of that, at the very least you STILL forced them to spend time recovering and waste time, whereas something like DS actually costs you more time than it costs the survivor
- The only true constant "Counter" is WGLF which has already been nerfed a bit, and is pretty manageable when you stack slugging perks to deal with it. On top of that, its only seen 3.13% of the time, so you are gonna see it maybe once every, what, 10 games?
And you wonder why killers are just slugging now? Why on earth is that surprising to you? They constantly nerf every single thing about killers, and all the hooking based gen defense perks, and it takes you 20 seconds to hook a survivor you just downed, meanwhile all the gens are getting slammed, and you wonder why killers just don't bother with the hook anymore?
cool, nerf slugging
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836604#Comment_3836604
It's a good question.
The data from BHVR says each survivor has a 40% chance of escaping on average, no in-game condition attached.
On the web app, I draw the actual mean escape rate of the survivors (in blue). It converges close to the chosen rate.
The way I see it, the reason survivors have escaped isn't really relevant, only that they have escaped at a rate close to that specified value. And of course the main information is the deduced killer win rate for said value.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836612#Comment_3836612
I've given the program so people could play with it "refuse to share the value". Conspiracy theorist much?
The draws are irrelevant as they mean that both teams have got a null.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836626#Comment_3836626
"proven wrong" then proceeds speaking about something I've specifically said was irrelevant.
I don't believe you understand what this is about.
You've said it's irrelevant but you're incorrect. The fact that kills per game doesn't follow a normal distribution in practice is very relevant to a simulation that does conform to that distribution.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834325#Comment_3834325
That's not the point. The point is that there have been many discussions questioning the target escape rate.
This script (and now the app in
) shows a good reason for that choice.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834354#Comment_3834354
What assumptions?
The chosen default escape rate is provided by BHVR a.ka the most accurate data we can have.
But more t than that, it's also the target chosen by BHVR. (40% escape rate, 60% kills).
It appears you misunderstand the use of the random uniform. A 40% escape rate means that, on average, a survivor escapes 40% of the time. So the program draws a random number between 0 and 100 (and it quite obviously need to be uniform) for each of the four survivors to determines if it has escaped or not. That's quite trivial.
As for the killer win, that's has always been defined like that: 2 kills: a draw, more a win, less a loss. But I'm not working on the survivor team wins, only the escape rate. Note that draws are irrelevant as they are just a "meh" game for both sides.
I'm convinced you don't understand what the program does and I don't know how to help you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834370#Comment_3834370
I'm not talking about the survivor team win rate. I've been very careful speaking about killer wins and survivor escapes.
The whole discussion that pushed for this is all these posters complaining about the 40% escape rate being too low.
The "throwing a bone" you are talking about is part of that target 40% escape rate. That's how BHVR is quite skilfully on that 40% target.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834506#Comment_3834506
In this case because a draw seems quite irrelevant. Neither side has won, two survivors are sacrificed. That's a "meh" on both sides.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834517#Comment_3834517
The program only shows, by simulation, why the 40% target from BHVR makes perfect sense.
Everything else is out of scope.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834693#Comment_3834693
A 60% escape rate would translate to about a 18% win rate for the killer. Nobody would play killer ever (people were already leaving in droves with a 50% escape rate)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834647#Comment_3834647
You started well understanding the way computations are made (as simply as I could so anybody could understand …)
Yet you fail to understand what the program does.
You understand that it decides if a survivor escapes by rolling a dice. Right?
So you can understand that doing that for four survivors decide if the match is a win (a.k.a more than two kills) for the killer.
Additionally, I'm assuming you understand the convergence of results for truly random sampling (of which uniform random is a decent approximation)
So if you understand all that then you have to understand the result is accurate. (I'm hoping you understand the difference between survivor escape rate and survivor team wins.)
Do it yourself if you want, you'll get the same results.
As for the arguments about players ruining matches not being counted, it's obviously the one thing to do and … it doesn't even matter.
All the program says is that a 40% escape rate gives about 47% win rate for the killer.
The reason survivors escape at 40% is utterly irrelevant.
The points remains: BHVR targets 40% and, from their own accurate measure, get these results when players aren't rage-quitting.
People have complained about that 40% target and this shows 40% is only giving a 47% win rate for a killer.
Everything else is a moot point.
Your simulation is proven wrong by taking 0.1 seconds to look at nightlight and seeing that a 2k is the least common outcome, not the most common. Wax lyrical all you want, every piece of hard data taken from actual gameplay shows that survivors making it out within the same game are not independent events. thus your simulation, which treats them as if they were, can tell us nothing about the actual state of winrates.
If you disagree, feel free to go to the hundreds of people who have ever complained about people choosing to go next on first hook and tell them that actually, the phenomenon of going next should have no effect on their chances.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Come on. Who gets tired of winning? And what's funny, I never hear this from survivors. "Just too tired of winning! Please nerf us!" It's just not something that someone in their right mind would say. Apply it to any other multiplayer game.
I tell you what you should do. You should seek out a tough SWF to custom match with. Maybe they'll make you fight for that 4k. Most likely they'll do a little bit more. But don't take my word for it. Do it.
Hmm, survivors don't complain about winning dozens of games in a row? I wonder why that is.
edit: uh… I didn't mean for the post to take up that much room. there was a screenshot showing that survivors escape around 40% of the time when solo; the point being that survivors aren't complaining about escaping too easily because they are not escaping too easily. unfortunately the image stretched to take up the whole screen so i had to delete it and write this instead
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835250#Comment_3835250
Trading a hook stage can be of insane value. To give it a downside would not be unwarranted. But making it aura instead of exposed is not a good idea. With all the complaints about aura reading that would not be appreciated.
This reminds me of that comic about anime girls
Girls in anime when their crush walks in on them changing: "Idiot! Perv! How could you‽"
Girls when at a beach with their crush wearing a bikini: "Like what you see? Come feast your eyes."
The counterpoint, of course, being that in the first scenario the girl did not consent to have her aura read, which is why she's complaining about it. She's more than fine having her aura read when she consents to, and has control over, the situation. If someone's running a perk tontry to get people de-tunneled, they're probably going to be OK with it having a feature that would make the killer conform them instead while allowing them to keep the killer occupied for a little while. The current downside of exposed means the killer can just insta down you and either keep tunneling or hook you and know you're on death hook.
Besides, I'm not the only one in this thread, even, proposing giving it an aura read instead of the exposed.
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The downside of scream + exposed is terrible
- Lets a tunneling killer know you have it
- Gives them tools to punish you for using it
- Prevents you from taking a hit if killer returns
- Even if killer is not paying attention, if they're tunneling they're likely to return, punishing you for using the perk correctly.
IMO the loss of a hook state is enough of a downside to using the perk. If you somehow need more than that, come up with a different downside, for example, after getting 16 meters away from the unhooked survivor, reveal your aura to the killer for [x] seconds
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@Saiph said:
Ah yeah, the weekly "math" fallacy trying to pretend killer wins only 50% of their games.
You DON'T NEED to know Python to understand the fallacy.
Because EVERY time, the trick is the SAME : draws. Instead of counting the wins / loss for both sides (which shows 60 - 40 in favor of killer) , the person will try to split into wins / draws / losses (which gives 50 - 15 - 35 instead, still in favor of killers). Then, they "magically" forget draws, and tell you "Look, killers win only 50% of their game". But the thing is, even under this convention, survivors win only 35% of the time, because 15% are draws. So this is STILL completely killer-sided.
And of course, this time is no exception.
As I said, no need to understand the full code, nor the math: we trust OP for this. The only part that we want to look for, is how they deal with draws. And how, what a surprise: notice that OP's code explicitly computes "draw rate" at line 30, but then never uses it anywhere. Only the "win rate" and "escape rate" in the graphics are shown. Isn't it weird? Why would you bother computing the "draw rate", then in the end not do anything at all with it?
The answer is - and OP perfectly knows it - that if they would show you the draw rate (or survivor win rate, even better) on the graph then it will reveal a completely opposite narrative to the one they're trying to paint. Under the convention that they created, yes killers only win 50% of their games, but survivors only win 35%, and the rest are draws.
Now in this case though we are reaching some particularly disturbing levels of manipulation, as OP added unnecessary complexity to the post in order to "scare" people away and just trust that he has done the math. But no, just because someone used Python does not mean he did "math" nor was honest about it (Python is in fact complete overkill as you could just use Nightlight data to prove the same point).
Speaking about honesty, this quote - from the main post - is particularly questionable:
All in all, the "power role" (in the theme) only wins about half the time, which mean, as a team, survivors win about half the time too, on average, overall.
Now this is a blatant lie. You know very well that YOUR OWN data shows something like 35% winrate for survivors, not 50%, and don't forget I can run your Python script myself if you don't want to reveal the numbers.
It's unfortunate that you did this experiment in an attempt to show that the game is not killer-sided, and it completely backfired: not only does the data it produces show that the game IS in fact killer-sided, but it also directly debunks that "killers win only 50% of the time" fallacy.
Redo the same graph, but show us the survivor winrate as well as the killer winrate, please..
They do win "only" like 51% of their games, the problem is that they draw another 13% or so and thus lose less than 40%. Survivors escape 40% of the time, but that counts both wins and draws for survivors (if you're counting solo results as the win con for survivors)
It doesn't really matter because as I've often asserted, the game is at its bes lt when it favors killers in a fun way! I just think we shouldn't pretend "favoring killers in a fun way" doesn't actually count as favoring killers"
Also I personally feel like it favors killers in a not-fun way but that's personal grievance rather than objective analysis
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As a CS guy by training, as much as I love encouraging people to learn about coding, you could have done this with a simple binomial distribution
It's also a bad model because one survivor dying increases the liklihood of other survivors dying, meaning the kind of simulation you've made (where survivors dying are independent events) is not representative of how results actually happen. It's far more productive to look at something like Nightlight's stats for analysis like this