pseudechis
pseudechis
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Mostly package deliveries, that requires me to get up and answer the door.
Sometimes the dog needs to go outside mid game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674909#Comment_3674909
Being hard doesn't necessarily equate to being miserable, no. But having vital information withheld can make it feel like you're set-up to fail.
I think there's a difference. Do I understand why Killers tunnel? Yes, of course. Does that really matter in the moment and in my experience? No, not really. It can be completely rational to tunnel but it can still feel bad for the individual being removed from competition.
But what information is being withheld as it were. The tutorial goes over all the basic mechanics and the load screen has relevant tool tips. Nothing is being withheld unless you expect to have the entire game spoon fed to you rather than learning through experience.
Its an elimination game, there are lots of elimination games out there where the goal is to avoid elimination. If someone feels bad when they get eliminated maybe they shouldn't play elimination games. Seriously I can't stress this enough, DBD makes no allusions about what happens if you get caught the goal is to avoid that.
The same goes for any game setting where people get upset over mechanics.
If you're gonna dice rage don't play games with dice, it just spoils the fun for those who don't dice rage.
If you're gonna throw the controller when you get killed then you need to put down the controller before you break your stuff like a fool. That's all it is foolish behaviour looking for an excuse to legitimize itself.
Those are extreme examples but my point is that it shouldn't feel bad to extent it ruins the game to be eliminated because being eliminated is part of the game. If that's the case then DBD isn't the game for you. (I mean you collectively not specifically you).
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Always? Typically none.
The goal is to kill em and that’s what I’ll try and do.
Not to say that nobody ever gets let go, but can’t say there is a stipulation that I’ll always adhere to.
Maybe in the face of multiple dcs and someone or two sticks it out then kudos where kudos are due.
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@scachich said:
this actually kind of worked, i know this is a very old post but now i don't get angry anymore.
That’s awesome.
Games are meant to be fun if you can’t find the fun here then you gotta find something else that’s fun.
Hope you keep finding the fun.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674751#Comment_3674751
We've certainly had our vehement disagreements, it would not be unreasonable for you to assume things in a negative manner. My apologies if that isn't the case, even subconsciously.
From the perspective of someone who has been playing for a significant amount of time? Perhaps that's true. For a brand-new player? I think a tutorial is vital to their experience; people don't have unlimited time, as I'm sure you know. It is difficult to dedicate hundreds of hours to learning DBD when the game can be very miserable when you don't understand it. Perhaps you should ask some newer players for their opinions; I hardly think either of us are particularly qualified in that regard lol.
I think it greatly depends on what you mean by overblown, which I can't recall if the OP ever defined.
No worries it's never personal its just discussion. Its a gaming forum its not worth getting personal over.
I'll happily agree tutorials make things easier but how vital it is to the experience is up for debate. There is a disconnect between something being hard and something being miserable. Just because its hard doesn't make it miserable.
There is a tutorial already its mostly still the same as it always been... mostly. How helpful it is eh its got the base mechanics and some tips.
What the poster was asking for was survivor custom mode so they could wander the maps and learn the layout, well you can do that as killer and it isn't that different. Plus if able to load into custom games as survivor then its likely a bot killer is gonna be on your butt the whole game so its not like you have much license to wander around and look anyway.
If 3rd person view is needed (I don't know migraines or motion sickness being a legitimate reason for that I guess) there really isn't an option for you which does kinda suck. There are other options to help with those thigs though FOV slider, screen overlays so its not all on BHVR's head to attenuate that problem.
The ability to load into a custom as just a solo survivor, no killer, no team would be worth while but its not exactly vital to the game and probably a very low priority. So as I always said we work with the tools we have.
Best bet would be find a buddy to load into a custom game with you as killer and then wander the map together and learn the layouts. Bit of simple problem solving to work with the tools we have.
I completely accept that sometimes people don't want solutions they just want to complain. I find complaints work best when they lead to solutions.
As for the OP, the post defines what they see as "acceptable tunneling" and it covers a lot of what people describe as "tunneling". So one could argue that if you can rationalize "tunneling" acceptably and a lot of peoples experience of tunneling falls under that, then the furor surrounding it is largely overblown.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674476#Comment_3674476
To be honest, I think you're just used to me attacking what you say and read too much into it, which you know, fair enough.
I'll tell you full-stop what I meant and what I wanted you to get from it. Perhaps that will clear up this misunderstanding.
Think about what your words can be understood as and be careful choosing them; this argument sounds too close to what people said in regards to accessibility. Just because things were one way does not mean they should stay that way, things are allowed to be easier. The game has changed so much from when you or I began playing; there's so much to learn and so much to do, it can be overwhelming. A better tutorial would serve newer players well, if you can think of an argument that doesn't sound like you want people to suffer just for the sake of it, please say it.
That's about what I wanted you to get.
You thought about that really carefully.
Firstly dude check your ego, it has nothing to do with you. If someone comments with a questionable take I may give my take on it.
Secondly, even in light of your clarification my point hasn't changed. Playable tutorials while helpful aren't necessary for a game to be playable.
All the things you say here are true it makes thing easier, its more new player friendly and its ok for things to change I never said it any of these things aren't true or aren't valuable.
As far as I can see you took the single line of dialogue "we used to have no tutorials and got along fine" without really reading any of the preface that lead up to it and then just ran with that as a whole topic.
Tell me are you a read the headline and react person or did you read the whole thing and formulate an opinion?
Because all the points you raise here are fine but none are really relevant to what was being discussed and then you heap on the accessibility options as a weakly associated side note and what we have is a reaction based on the headline and not the content.
In the words or Ricky Gervais "you should have left it" but it turned into a interesting little sideshow and has come full circle so lets not hijack this thread any longer.
To keep it on topic, in response just to the title in this case as I've already previously discussed the topic here, I do believe "tunneling" to be bit overblown.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672705#Comment_3672705
To me your “there was a time when games had no tutorials and not even any manuals and we all got along fine" - comment sounds like "it was worse in the past so you shouldn't complain about the supoptimal situation now".
I didn't say that you are disingenuous but ignoring the lack of tutorials in the skill discussion is. Generally I would agree that most dbd players are not that great but I do think that the lackluster tutorial and training options are part of the problem. My translator app translates disingenuous with a word that fits what I'm trying to say and with words that are a lot harsher (and imply mean intent) so it was probably not the right word to use in this context but I didn't found a different one quickly.
Again, I didn't want to call you disingenuous, but to me you seem not very understanding, because someone told you that the Tutorial options aren't good enough and you are like "Well, it is what it is, use some inconvenient workaround and stop complaining". Also, I don't think learning map layout was the main problem for the person you originally replied to, but I might be projecting there.
From my experience tutorials are included in newer games, I get that that was different in the past, but expectations change and coupled with the fact that the Devs already promised custom survivor only games I think I'm not unfair in my disappointment that they are still not available.
Also, I did start dbd before there was a tutorial. For me it was not a fun experience as Killer or Survivor, without more experienced friends I would have dropped the game.
That's a very fair assessment so allow me to clarify further the point on tutorials.
I'm not saying you can't ask for a tutorial or even demand one, and a limited one already exists in game that demonstrates the mechanics.
What you are asking for though is survivor mode in customs for the purpose of practice, but custom games don't really exist for practice alone, your intent to use it that way is just one aspect.
So if demanding custom games for the purpose of learning map layout from a survivor perspective then you are likely to wait for it because its not really a priority thing in terms of playing the game.
So here are the tools available to use in the game's current state. I'd recommend trying those in the absence of exactly what was being asked for.
There is no discussion of skill, accessibility options or half the things people wanted to read into the point made which was the fact that what you have to work with is limited. So by all means ask for survivor custom games, but if you want to learn map layout then load into a custom game as killer and walk around the maps freely, that's the option you have.
In terms of wanting greater tutorial options, then games have worked for a long time without that so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674384#Comment_3674384
I think he just drew a parallelism that makes sense in his mind. Maybe there was no point; it could have just been a random thought that occurred to him which he shared with you. Could have been knee-jerk. Or quite possibly to him it seemed relevant enough to share. But I don’t believe he was labeling you as anti-accessibility (or even someone against basekit features).
That doesn't make it any less of a weak point to make.
I mean if they just made the "back in my day" quip implying I was some old fogey that would have been both apt and funny.
But to try and draw attention to accessibility in some kind of weak veneer of benevolence unrelated to the topic at hand was just on the nose.
But I suspected it wasn't genuine and it afforded an opportunity to pull some disingenuousness out of the bag. That made for some interesting and entertaining discussion, which was the topic at hand and why we are here.
It played out in a manner that I'm satisfied with and we've strayed far enough from the thread topic I have no wish to hijack it further.
"Villainy wears many masks, none so dangerous as the mask of virtue" - Sleepy Hollow.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673466#Comment_3673466
To be fair I didn’t sense that he was suggesting you are against accessibility features. I believe he was drawing a parallel (that I too have seen btw) between the arguments of people who are against anti-base kit features for survivors and people who were against accessibility features. Just my interpretation.
What was the purpose of making that point in this context though?
Think about it what bearing does that point have on the conversation at all?
It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion.
It implied by saying that tutorials aren’t a necessity in gaming that I would also have to believe that accessibility option aren’t either. A gross assumption and when called on that assumption they simply non-committedly back-pedalled on it.
Which funnily enough was an example of disingenuousness that was relevant to the topic. It’s why I pressed the issue because I’d thought that’s what we’d get.
The point is tutorials not being a thing is completely different from accessibility options not being a thing. They aren’t the same.
To imply they are is to insult people who need accessibility options.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673432#Comment_3673432
"only demonstrates your own disregard for them [people with special needs]"
Quoted from you directly.
In this case you did display disregard for it. Nothing you have said has changed that, only demonstrated your failure to realize it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673340#Comment_3673340
I always buy all content for DBD even if some of it I don't use much. I just have to have it all. Exception is like I didn't buy the soundtrack.
That sultry main theme guitar is on my playlist just after the Halloween theme.
The whole soundtrack is on Spotify I believe.
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Probably, I know next to nothing about the DLC this time as I haven't really kept up to date... but watched a 30 sec release clip that looked rather chilling and piqued my interest.
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This is a killer attempting to secure a kill post mid game... what's the issue?
If wanting an example of inappropriate gameplay it really isn't. Defending a hook in this scenario makes perfect tactical sense.
The mechanic you are talking about is to provide a counter to the most egregious form of "face camping" by offering a chance at greater playtime without the assistance of a team mate. A situation not represented here by the scenario in the provided screen grab.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673271#Comment_3673271
My man literally took a single sentence, wrote multiple essays about it, took it completely the wrong way and infers that I hate people with disabilities.
The only person I hate who has disabilities is myself and I will not take the accusation that I hate disabled people lightly; especially not after all the arguments I had fighting FOR accessibility in this game.
I never said you hate people with disabilities just that you were inconsiderate of how you used the topic in this case.
Take the lesson, there is caring about important topics and there is trying to look like you care about important topics. Our actions and words often speak to which of these we are engaging in at the time.
Think about it and if you are going to comment, then stand by your comment. People may not agree or like my opinions and they don't have to, but I'm nothing if not direct in my points and genuine in my convictions.
We've strayed far enough from the thread topic.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672839#Comment_3672839
I didn't frame anything. I drew a comparison to things I have heard in the past from people using the same argument against features like visual TR, removing Doctor's flashing hallucinations and flashlight clicking.
None of which is relevant to the topic and used to frame my point as being outdated and inconsiderate of accessibility options which is completely unrelated.
It’s an attempt to undermine the topic indirectly by creating a negative association. A very common but rather weak tactic when called out. As you have been called out here.
Actually if you had just said the “in my day” quip that would have been direct, apt and kinda funny, but your attempt to tie it to accessibility options painting the jibe in some kind of benevolent veneer and the subsequent backpedal on your intent is a great example of disingenuousness.
You’ve tried to use special needs as a weapon to shut down unrelated discussion in complete disregard for those special needs, which only demonstrates your own disregard for them. It’s a lil ironic and rather disingenuous.
So by some comedic irony this lil segue has provided a great example of the topic at hand, disingenuous sentiment.
I do enjoy good comic irony. I guess I should just put a bow on this one and say thanks.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672705#Comment_3672705
I said that it sounds very similar, not that it was the same thing.
"Back in my day, we didn't have any of these things; get used to it and stop whining."
You knew what you were doing.
You framed it as safely as possible but you knew and it wasn't cool.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672115#Comment_3672115
Sounds too close to what people against accessibility settings say.
Oh god, no that is very different.
Are you really equating systems in place to allow people with an inability to play something due to unchangeable physical limitation to those whom are simply unwilling to learn something they are completely capable of learning simply because there isn't a tutorial.
Those are two very different things.
To equate them in any way is to insult people who genuinely need those tools. Mindfulness sometimes backfires when thoughtlessly used as a weapon in an unrelated discussion.
To the quoted response at hand, which is my being "disingenuous" by offering up options for someone to learn map layout within the current tools available.
I'm guessing that the person in question doesn't really know what disingenuous means. Which is evident from their reply.
So I stand by my point that its possible to learn map layout playing killer in custom games and its the only option at the moment. So if they want to learn map layout then play some killer in custom games. If they need a 3rd person view then Chucky is currently the only option for them. If they don't want to buy chucky then yeah that sucks but its what they have to work with... a point that is simply pragmatic and in no way disingenuous.
As evidenced in the reply below. I didn't saying anything about skill all I did was point out the tools currently available to do what they wanted which was learn map layout.
@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671129#Comment_3671129
Sure, it's just convenience, but it would make practicing easier, so I think it is disingenuous to complain about lack of skill without acknowledging the lack of a good tutorial/practicing options.
Also, when they released bots for custom, they said that Killer Bots would come later. That was November 2022. The Trapper Bot is already in the Tutorial, why not add him to custom atleast? I would be fine with an option where the Killer just stands in a corner aswell, but after more than a year there hasn't been any update, so I'm not super optimistic at the moment.
If the point is that "there is no excuse for there to be no custom game mode to practice as survivor" then well.... Tutorials are a convenience not a necessity.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671129#Comment_3671129
Sure, it's just convenience, but it would make practicing easier, so I think it is disingenuous to complain about lack of skill without acknowledging the lack of a good tutorial/practicing options.
Also, when they released bots for custom, they said that Killer Bots would come later. That was November 2022. The Trapper Bot is already in the Tutorial, why not add him to custom atleast? I would be fine with an option where the Killer just stands in a corner aswell, but after more than a year there hasn't been any update, so I'm not super optimistic at the moment.
Disingenuous oh please there was time when games had no tutorials and not even any manuals and we all got along fine.
Just play the game.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663947#Comment_3663947
Chucky is a licensed Killer, as a survivor main I'm not willing to spend real money just because I want to be able to play custom in third person.
I'm sure you're only trying to be helpful but there is really no excuse that such a basic feature is still missing after almost 8 years.
Because it’s not really a necessary feature it’s a convenience so inevitably you have to work within the limits of what you have and what’s available.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668877#Comment_3668877
you already can with good enough timing in the otz clip he heard the sound but got off before the circle appeared for the skillcheck
That just means they need to remove the sound as well.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664586#Comment_3664586
You don't understand my point.
If that was the case then OTR and Reassurance would have been a thing from the beginning of the game. Also 'countering' is a strong word for something that merely delays it.
But counter doesn't mean nullify in totality, a delaying action is still a counter, its a reduction in effectiveness also known as a counter.
You don't need OTR and reassurance to out play a killer hell bent on trying to eliminate you, just as a killer doesn't need to "tunnel" in order to win.
Try a stealthy build Spine chill, Iron will, PG and lucky break for instance and avoid it all together.
Or bite the bullet, lucky break and scratch mark hiding perks. vanish mid chase and heal. It can be crazy fun and really punish a killer that wants to try and focus you out.
There are a bunch of videos about builds like this and making them work, why not give them a try?
I get your point it just lacks imagination when trying to outplay, or counter, "tunneling"
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As has been pointed out the mechanics exist to combat the most egregious form of "camping".
It does this by affording a chance to escape, increased game time and the ability to do this without another player's aid, it doesn't exist to simply delete all threat of elimination due to a killer choosing to defend a hook effectively.
Yet again it gets called toxic, defending a hook is not inherently toxic in some cases its a smart play and a tool/tactic that can be used to change up game flow when needed.
Its not inherently OP because if not done properly, and it often isn't, then its more costly to the killer than beneficial. So the counters can't be inherently OP either.
Lastly as humans we all have a love affair with totalism and Hyperbole meaning that apparently camping happens all the time and its worse than its ever been... all the time. Making most complaints about it not really worth the time it took to write them.
Lastly players have freedom of choice that leads to varied gameplay and an anything can happen environment which is a good thing, the more we limit that the blander the game becomes.
This is what I like to call the "Cold Gruel" approach, its not sweet, not spicy, not salty, not flavorful, not crunchy, just a bland paste that is safe to consume and never different. You consume it for consumption sake nothing more. That's what happens to interesting things when you shave off even the more offensive parts you end up with cold gruel. Blandness for all... lets keep the game a lil spicy so much of life is cold gruel these days.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664620#Comment_3664620
To be fair, F13 got kneecapped early on by legal issues.
I don't play, not really anymore. Every once in a while some friends will want to see if Survivor is fun again, it's not. Every once in a while, I'll play some Killer, but I'm tapped out. I've pushed as high as I can on Console, I've played comp, scrim nights and Community Cups. There's not much left for me on Killer and while I'd like to be on par with someone like Ayrun or Hens as a Survivor, it's just not gonna happen with how unpleasant the game usually is, playing alone is awful and most of my experienced friends have long since quit.
To some effect but the legal issues never stopped the game being available to play it simply started to die off due to stagnating game state. Although if folks haven't tried the solo play kill quests they are still worth the 10 bucks for a hour of bloody fun even if the main game is ironically well... dead.
Maybe that's for the best... DBD has been out for a long time and you seem burned out on it. I don't play as much as I used to either not because I'm tired o fit, there is just new stuff to play.
Age of Wonders 4 eats up a lot of my game time these days but a 4x requires a lot of time to play. I keep coming back to DBD because if I have a 30-40 min window I can crack out a couple of self contained games without any real commitment and that's just great.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663917#Comment_3663917
Love the forums not giving me a notification :(
For me, yes. For them? No. Unfortunately, not winning in DBD is usually because you're getting stomped, which I've noticed is increasingly common. Close games are the rarity now and I can't really enjoy a stomp either way. It's either miserable because you are losing badly or I feel bad because someone clearly got backfilled in.
Absolute cesspool was descriptive of the community, at times.
The odds are that those Killers still won. If you actually choose to tunnel with decent perks, you're gonna win 99% of the time. They buy you time to kill someone, even if that person is out of your league.
They don't happen to themconstantly, no. Few people are tunneled in multiple games in a row. Tunneling itself, however, is present is nearly every game.
I'm trying to teach them. Tricks and tips I've picked up over the now SIX years (jeez it's been that long) I've been playing. I try to encourage them, suggest fun builds with their limited perks and guide them. I try to take pressure off them, direct them, etc etc
The messages thing is hidden in settings. It blocks all messages from anyone outside your friends list.
I do go over structures. They're new players, they go down in 10 seconds regardless. They don't have Distortion.
Yeah, if being realistic paints the game in a bad light, that's on the game.
Here's the absolute unbiased truth.
You will not have a pleasant experience in a lot of your games. You will gain very little reward for your effort. You will need to invest an extremely large amount of time to even get a foothold in DBD.
Why would someone play a game where they aren't going to have a pleasant experience, where the game is an almost insurmountable grind and an extremely steep learning curve.
Fair enough I'm not here to change the way you think about it just merely offer an alternative perspective that may help with the complaint that new players you introduce to the game aren't having any fun.
Yeah overall its on the game but the game is not bad its just hard, and anything hard is made easier and more enjoyable by good people to share that experience with.
I'm afraid your "truths" aren't that unbiased at least not the first two and even then the third one is a lil exaggerated.
Your perception of what's pleasant is subjective.
You only gain little because you are putting a lot of negativity in the first place which leaves little to gain, remember the fun of playing is the primary gain, before BP's or anything else. If you are going in with the precept that its not fun you've already severed your gains.
Its a hard game with a long learning curve and better match making could assist better with this but simply by pairing with a more experienced player you get dragged up a lil and its made harder which is not ideal. But how long that takes is up to the individual, not everyone is gonna invest a huge amount of time to get where they want to be unless where they want to be is the upper echelons of play.
You ask a very good question why would someone play if that was their outlook on things, which makes me ask why do you play?
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664569#Comment_3664569
I think that's more an exception to the norm, honestly.
Even I didn't really like the game for a long while.
I think if this was the case the game would be vastly more unpopular than it is.
It is a shame that you aren't getting out of it what you feel you put in, but most players likely aren't in that boat, even when new because there are relatively stable participation numbers and still generally gains in player base. (Admittedly this is from steam chart data so grain of salt but you can't deny there are a lot of people playing and having a good time doing so).
Compare DBD to F13, or similar, which lost all interest on a much shorter timeline.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660956#Comment_3660956
Abso-effing-lutely. 👏
You can neither prevent nor stop Tunneling. They want you out, you will be out... its just a matter of time.
The devs do not seem to consider the effect certain perk combos have that only grants the killer EXTRA time to play the same exact way they have been for years. At this point I just assume everyone is bringing Pain Res/Grim Embrace/Pop/Deadlock. Meanwhile I have to bring OTR and Reassurance in every build in the event the killer feels like Tunneling or Camping. Nothing to do with actual chases... or that would directly impact the main objective, it's just me trying to counter a playstyle that simply exists.
Isn't one of the main points for the existence of perks to counter existing play styles?
By this logic it should be egregious that players try to repair gens simply because gen regression perks exist.
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@hinney said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663935#Comment_3663935
If someone is playing in a manner that prevents my fair play, such as extremely purposeful body blocks (I'm talking, running behind the other survivor and stopping in a doorway so I can't pass), I will suspend my normal playstyle and give them what they want.
I just finished a game where a Feng player (on anonymous mode, shocker for such toxic play) camped and threw shack pallet on me within about a minute of the match starting (as I came up from the basement after hooking my first down) while not even in chase with her to get her Champion of the Light blind and double blind as I broke the pallet, and attempt to triple blind, and teabag and click at me while I looked down to prevent the extra blinds. She was constantly running near me during chase, clicking her flashlight at me, attempting saves while I went to pick up other survivors, a couple times even while injured.
She wasn't good and thought she was, and was begging for chase until she very quickly got on death hook, and was still in the mix rather than sitting gens while I chased other survivors. I got a down and she and another flashlight player popped out to try to save. You better believe I picked her. If you put yourself in my face like that, you're going to get chased. She was out of the match at 3 gens and like 5 or 6 hooks.
It doesn't seem particularly inconsistent to me, but it's obviously my own logic. So maybe I'm missing something in my own blind spot but, as far as I'm concerned, if I try to play fairly and you tell me to come chase you, it's not playing unfairly to come chase you. Beg for chase all match, you can have it.
It's ok in tourneys because that's what what everyone signed up for. That's what's expected. It is, after all, the most effective/efficient way to play and the style with the highest likelihood to give you a win. And it doesn't even work most of the time because of how good the survivors are and how strong their communication is. It's an extremely hard fought game at those levels, even to just get one kill most of the time. At the casual level, it's not hard at all to tunnel people.
Well yeah its a great story but it doesn't change my point.
There is an arbitrary point where you decide that tunneling is acceptable and then do it. The story here is an example of that.
A lil thought exercise here.. Why is your version of "appropriate tunneling" more justified than someone else's, who may have a different ruleset for when its appropriate?
A side note.. You have to be able to answer this without applying any kind of assumed motivation or moral standard on your opponent for it to be rationally unbiased. For example
"If someone is playing in a manner that prevents my fair play, such as extremely purposeful body blocks (I'm talking, running behind the other survivor and stopping in a doorway so I can't pass), I will suspend my normal playstyle and give them what they want."
This statement qualifies the opponent as acting unfairly simple by trying to body block and then implies they want (or deserve) to be tunneled purely because of it. What they did, something many players ask for from their teammates, is simply helped a team mate by taking a hit and potentially taking aggro.
Why is this very basic and normal piece of gameplay grounds for you to engage in, as you put it, boring, lame and unfair tunneling?
Isn't this just another example of my previous point of using a playstyle you don't like to try and punish a different playstyle you don't like and feel justified in doing so? Kind of tit-for-tat.
So if your intent is to use tunneling maliciously to punish other behaviour isn't that motivation worse than someone who just uses it to try and win a game?
You sign up for any potential game play whenever you sign up for a game of DBD tournament or otherwise.
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@Man_of_triangles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663943#Comment_3663943
It would need to be as a survivor.
Try it as chucky if wanting the 3P view.
The spatial awareness is a lil different but the maps are the same.
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Oooooh a doom and gloom thread.
Which side is quitting?
Who's fault is it this time, killers?... survivors?... the Devs?... the tunnelers?... the SWF's?
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@Man_of_triangles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663928#Comment_3663928
It's really not enough. I've been playing on and off since launch and have nearly 2000 hours and I'm still going to go down in 20 seconds or less to an M1 killer. That will be the case until the day I'm allowed to spend dozens of hours walking around the map, alone, in a 1 man private match with no pressure or stress.
You can do that if you want, you jump into a solo custom match with a heap of slowdown perks, you slug the bots and presto uninterrupted map time. Wander to your hearts content.
There are some great old diagrams showing how to run an LT wall etc, as survivor you want to run it one way, as killer you want to try and interrupt that and run it the other. I'm sure you already know this with 2000 hours but its all there.
Helped me a lot when I first started, I still go down in 20s from time to time but not as often as I used to.
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You can build to slug rather effectively and it can be more advantageous to do than hooking with some set ups.
I don't really play singularity but Bubba can be a slug champ and building around that can get you multiple downs and a lot of stall and pressure.
You don't really need to dig into the brain of another player to find rationale for a lot of playstyles. Not every game is going to be hook everyone equally and on time and never deviate from that structure.
Why slug in that scenario because now killer potentially has pressure on 2 players - 1 on the ground, 1 trying to hide/in chase. Also potentially one less gen in progress because 3rd teammate is coming to pick up the slug. Its a perfectly viable thing to attempt especially if you built for slugging and can get multiple downs.
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@hinney said:
I disagree with a lot of takes on here.
From both sides for me, as I play both killer and survivor quite frequently, tunneling is lame, boring, and unfair.
When I play killer, I go out of my way to not return to the hook. Or, if I'm near the hook when an unhook happens/the unhook is performed immediately in my face, I will chase the un-hooker, not the person who was just on the hook. If there are two people with the same cosmetic, and the most recently hooked person is healed and I realize I've attacked that person, I will leave the chase probably 9 of 10 times. The only time you get tunneled is when you essentially are asking for it by attempting to body block a full health ally with your base-kit borrowed time as I'm actively trying to not hit you. I generally win games and even beat SWFs, unless they're cracked or bring BNPs and do all the things to crank through the gens as I get 20s into a chase. It's pretty rare that, even playing extremely fairly, I don't get at least 2 kills. Even in those games that I do poorly, you get the toxic teabaggers who stand at the open gate and make you force all 4 of them out.
When I play survivor, and a killer leaves an active chase to run back to me getting unhooked is very frustrating. Usually you are hooked in a relative dead-zone, because that's how you went down in the first place. The ten seconds of base-kit BT is not always enough to get you to where you need to be to make a decent chase, especially if the killer manages to cut you off and body blocks you.
Tunneling isn't necessary if you're not playing at the highest levels. "High MMR" isn't the highest levels. Comp/tourney squads are the highest levels. Where you NEED to kill someone before a gen gets popped or you lose 3 all at once and the game is basically over now. Those teams are mega coordinated and pop in for hit tanks and body blocks, and still work on gens most of the time. If you play fairly against your average teams, which, again, is the large majority of the people who play the game (that's literally what "average" is), you have a very solid shot of getting your two+ kills at at least "tying" the game.
Is simply winning the game in any manner actually the only thing that so many people care about? I care about enjoying the process of the game. I like having fair chases, on both sides. That's the most fun. Do you guys feel a great achievement from tunneling someone off the hook? That win feels good to you? Singling out the "weak link" and specifically targeting that player? I don't see the achievement in that. If you need to play unfairly to win, you don't deserve to get the win, in my opinion. It's way more fulfilling to play fairly and have a hard fought win than to just target a new player and basically win the game with a kill and 5 gens left.
To play devils advocate a lil here. I get where you are coming from with trying to spread pressure and hooks and your personal feelings on "Tunneling" however you define it.
But can you see that you still, by your own admission, "tunnel" you've just created a collection of arbitrary rules about when its appropriate and when it isn't.
So using BT to body block for the rescuer, immediately makes tunneling not lame, boring or unfair? Because the player is asking for it?
Isn't this just using a playstyle you don't like to try and punish a different playstyle you don't like and feel justified in doing so?
If not that then why is leveraging this advantageous scenario because a player squandered their BT permissible but leveraging an unsafe unhook in the same way isn't?
What about this makes it any more fair, "morally just" or earned, than choosing to chase the unhooked over the rescuer because it can be advantageous to do so?
Its ok in tourneys because you can lose gens fast but not ok in regular play? What about regular play when you are losing gens fast, where do you draw the line?
I think the big problem with "tunneling" is not so much its game impact, but rather players have taken a odd kind of moralistic view of it and if circumstances arise that permit a player to be eliminated early that taking advantage of that is unearned or undeserved.
There is also such a subjective take on what constitutes "tunneling" that its an easy scape goat when things don't go well, rather than looking to one's own play and mistakes.
For all my not having an issue with "tunneling" I can't say that I use it as a tactic a lot either, its often not needed and if I double hook someone for the elimination its typically past mid game and a scenario that kinda crops up organically due to circumstance. But I get accused of "tunneling" and "camping" a lot, the terms get thrown on like ketchup.
Which has inevitably made me question all these posters on the forum complaining about tunneling, are they really being tunneled all the time as they claim or is the definition so broad now that you can see it everywhere making it a convenient scapegoat when things don't go your way.
I don't get tunneled that much and neither do a lot of the players I play with. I'm not saying it doesn't happen it definitely does and I've definitely done it myself, but is it overblown?... It kinda is.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663567#Comment_3663567
1) Yes, because that requires an entire team to counter. It doesn't matter if you lead the Killer on a minute and a half long chase if no gens get done. It is decidedly unfun to have that experience ad nauseum. Perhaps once or twice a session, sure, you can take the personal victory of some measure of time waste, but after so many experiences...it becomes apparent that what you do matters very little.
2) Can you honestly tell me that tunneling decreases the better you get? Because it sure doesn't seem that way to me. I've watched them play and they find it to be the most unpleasant part about the game; when they ask me, "Hey, does it ever get better when I get better?" what am I supposed to say? "Oh, well no, it doesn't you'll just have to get used to it"
It is a given. It will happen. How bad it is and what form it takes is something else, but I would be remiss to not warn them about the absolute cesspool that is DBD's community at times. Like I said, some of the best people I've met have been in this community; but also some of the worst.
Perhaps I should've been more clear. The things they find unpleasant do not change with playtime. Tunneling doesn't go away, BM doesn't, camping doesn't nor do boring playstyles or toxicity. Perhaps they could change via BHVR, but that's difficult to predict.
I'm glad other people can play certain ways, that doesn't change my enjoyment or my friend's enjoyment. We've had this discussion about people roleplaying a "real killer" before and I am not interested in repeating it, I doubt you are either.
I never dumped this info on them without them asking me first. I appreciate you blaming me for it, but no, I can assure you I was the only thing keeping them playing.
"The game was fun at first, but after awhile it just gets so hard to do anything and it's not fun. We want to play with you, but can we play a different game?"
"Do killers stop going after you so fast when your better?"
"how do i turn off my messages, i don't want to listen to some kid ######### talk me after that"
"How do you have fun as a survivor, are you supposed to die so quickly, I feel like Im not playing."
All messages from friends who've tried DBD with me and then quit because it's been such a miserable experience for them. I don't know how to screenshot on my phone, so quotes will have to do.
- So fun for you is defined by the ability to win and any other scenario isn't fun? This definition results in game being an "absolute cesspool" and "time waste" yet you aren't pessimistic you are realistic?
- No but your ability to play around it should increase which is generally what happens, why do you think there are players on here saying killer is weak, these are the players who can't catch survivors. Those survivors who are now good enough to not get caught by weak killers were once easily eliminated by them.
Sure the things don't change but neither do they happen all the time... as the narrative paints.
You don't have to dump it on them beforehand but what are you doing to instill a sense of fun in a new player as their gaming buddy?
"Do killers stop going after you so fast when your better?" If you get good enough yeah because trying to catch you becomes too costly and good killers know when to drop chase and move on. Some players may still get tunnel vision though and try to get you, you just have to run your best.
"how do i turn off my messages, i don't want to listen to some kid ######### talk me after that" There is a lil button for that... show it to them.
"How do you have fun as a survivor, are you supposed to die so quickly, I feel like Im not playing." Lets look at how you don't get found first and hence eliminated first, lets go over how to play around some of the basic structures to extend chase as much as possible.
I answered all these questions before too, but I did it in a way that doesn't paint a miserable or unavoidable scenario. Did everyone keep playing no... but some did and we still have fun today.
I never said you were to blame for them quitting but neither are you really doing anything to make them not quit. Because in the name of being "realistic" you make a very good argument for not playing at all.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663574#Comment_3663574
Aside from you taking shots at Pulsar’s take (which I get it, you disagree) this was a very thoughtful and acceptable response. Thank you.
No worries you asked a very thoughtful question and I wanted to take the time to answer it to the best of my ability. That's what discussion is.
Just to clarify I'm not taking pot shots at anyone in particular, the who or whom on this forum is completely unimportant to me. It's the point, or argument, not the person.
If the chief complaint is "new players I play with hate it and are miserable so they stop playing," but then all the context is purely I don't do anything to counter that but rather double down on and reinforce their dislike... then you can't really blame people for not wanting to stick with it.
The distinction between realism and pessimism is very clear, I know I'm a realist. Realistically with anything... if you want to really enjoy it then you gotta enjoy it warts and all.
Nothing wrong with highlighting and complaining about the things you don't like, go for it, but if all one can do is focus on the negatives and run with a narrative that they'll never be fixed, never improve and its never fun... then forget about why someone else stops playing, if stuck in that mindset you gotta ask why do I even play?
Last time I checked games were meant to be fun and DBD, for the most part, is still fun... warts and all.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663505#Comment_3663505
So whenever the topic of survivor gameplay experience comes up, especially when it’s about how the game affects new or lower MMR survivors, there’s always some variant of this opinion/attitude that survivors need to embrace that they’re going to face unfun game mechanics wherein they have virtually no autonomy.
It’s like there’s this push to normalize survivor players basically functioning as player-controlled NPCs or canon-fodder. But what’s interesting—and I’ve noticed this numerous times here—is that this position is never presented when new or low MMR killers share their frustrations regarding gameplay experiences.
So I’ve always wondered why survivors have to suck it up, deal with it, pretend they’re having fun, change their outlook (be positive, ‘find the fun’, so on and so forth), and accept the nonsense but killers are never encouraged to do this. Their concerns are quite often met with empathy and validation. And while I’m not saying you’re the mouthpiece for any group of people, what I’ve also noticed is that you suggest survivor players rethink how they approach the game in terms of fun. So I’m curious to know what your thoughts are behind this.
It goes exactly the same for killers and I have said as much before. As a beginner you are gonna eat a lot of losses and be on the receiving end of a lot of bad games purely for the fact of being new an inexperienced.
It just happens to be more pronounced for survivor because it results in elimination, which is much more terminally abrupt for a player than a killer who gets to remain in game and have an impact even if doing poorly. Which is likely why the survivor version sounds exacerbated given the larger interruption to the game that elimination is compared to a lack of hooks/kills.
No one is saying that players have to be cannon-fodder for the other side and subjective takes like that can, and have, been made by players on either side about each other depending on which camp they conform to.
My point is that there is an extreme difference between saying "this is going to be really hard at first" and setting expectations compared to saying "this is going to be hard and miserable and stay hard and miserable and never get better".
Two things all new players should expect from DBD
- Survivor is an elimination game you will get eliminated a lot, sometimes harshly.
- Killer is a time management crunch if you don't manage the time well then survivors will run circles around you and it can drag on.
Both these things are countered by experience and that takes time. If my friend wants to play with me I'll take the time with them and we'll try to have fun, which can increase as we improve. I'm not going to constantly moan at them how bad it is because I want them to play and that may require my enthusiasm to override more perceptively negative aspects of the game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663505#Comment_3663505
If they don't enjoy being tunneled, (they do not), getting the hang of DBD will NOT change that. -Realism.
I am not going to lead them on with ideas that they'll be immune to tunneling or that Killers won't do it anymore or that teammates get significantly more competent. - Realism.
You separated my points when they were meant to be taken together. They will never "outgrow" unfun mechanics because even as someone with 6K hours, I'm still getting those same things.
I have been told to kill myself in various different ways. I have been DDoS'd for hours. Spammed, routinely booted anytime my Console turned on, etc etc. I can post screenshots. This community has some of the nicest people I've met and most of the most psychotic. They need to be made aware of that and accept the risk of that happening to them as well. What kind of friend would I be if I DIDN'T warn them?
Once again, the things they find unpleasant and unfair do not ever change.
That's how DBD is. If you don't like it, I suppose you shouldn't play it.
So its realistic -
- That they can never learn to enjoy a game with tunneling by getting good enough to evade and avoid it or even punish it by running a killer for multiple gens? That can never be fun?
- No one is asking you to convince them they will be immune to tunneling that is unrealistic, but saying it never gets any better and there is no hope is the definition of pessimism. If your rationale has to have such an absurd justification for it, then it's not very rational.
I broke the points up because we are defining the realistic sentiments from the pessimistic ones, and no they can't be taken together for that purpose because only half of each point is realism and they are framed in pessimism, no matter how you look at it.
I've experienced all these things playing online in many different games. There is a difference between warning someone about it and telling them "it's a given" and always happens. If you don't frame your point realistically how can it be realism?
"Once again, the things they find unpleasant and unfair do not ever change." - Ignoring all the changes to gameplay over the years and denying a player has the ability to adapt and cope with elements intrinsic to the game, also known as "learning to play".
Have we grasped the difference between realism and pessimism yet?
That's how DBD is, no... but its how it can be, if you only derive joy from one particular aspect of the game i.e. "When DBD works (when either side doesn't try to stomp the other) it's very enjoyable." It's a competitive game by that I mean its you vs other people, PvP, people will play with all manner of motivations and your one motivation to play isn't necessarily the only correct one.
If unable to accept that then its not just DBD one shouldn't be playing but PvP games in general.
Presupposing and reinforcing this negative outlook in a new player creates a negative experience in of itself - Maybe try not doing that and new players might stick around even if its a challenge. Its a lot harder to do something hard when the person next to you is telling you how hard it is and that it never gets easier all of the time.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663201#Comment_3663201
You have to consider game balance based around high level play, in which everyone knows how to play. Saying that the balance is fine because a lot of people don’t know the game is a cop out. It doesn’t matter if it’s rare (and in my experience it isn’t as rare as people like to claim): the killer should never be out of a match before it begins. People can learn to play the game and get to a high level, which makes the hand holding mechanics BHVR has added (like base BT) incredibly overpowered. It’s lazy thinking to say that the majority should dictate how we play and think about the game.
It’s only logical that people who know the game and have put in time are going to stomp less experienced players. The worrying trend I am seeing with this game is that BHVR is trying to make it easier for inexperienced players to beat experienced players, and I don’t think that’s how it should be. I also think that this community has a lot of dishonest people who advocate around “casual” balance even though they know the game because they want to keep their advantage as survivors.
"Saying that the balance is fine because a lot of people don’t know the game is a cop out." - I've said nothing of the sort.
"It’s lazy thinking to say that the majority should dictate how we play and think about the game." - I've also said nothing of the sort.
You are making a case that the game is trending towards survivor sidedness, you've framed it as "killer is in the worst state its ever been". You do make some good points about survivor contending 1v1 against killers which would have been more accurate back in the early days of boons, with all the self heals and the set ups that require less team interaction. A lot of that has been attenuated, not all but a lot.
The results show you are more likely to die as survivor than to survive by a ratio of about 60-40. Unless I'm mistaken those results stem across MMR, a BHVR dev can correct me on this if they like.
"Intrinsically killer has the mechanical advantage because the survivor advantage is reliant on team coordination something outside of BHVR's control." This previous point I made holds true even for high MMR.
The only way to break it down is to show outcome ratio across MMR brackets, which as far as I'm aware they haven't. If you were to see a major switch between that 60-40 ratio between MMR bracket you could make a case for some of the things you are saying but as it stand the basis of your point is predicated solely on how you subjectively feel about the game.
The point is just as subjectively applicable to killer as to survivor, meaning it doesn't have a great deal of basis.
We aren't saying that all games should be balanced around average players, we are saying average outcome appears to be skewed toward killer. If this average takes in all MMR (and I have no reason to believe it doesn't)... then guess what games even at high MMR are still on average killer skewed.
So how you feel the game is progressing isn't necessarily backed up by what's observed, at least by current records released. With that in mind you may want to reassess the basis for how you feel - is my point.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663462#Comment_3663462
Except it's not fun, even when you have the hang of it.
I'm not going to lead them on by telling them it gets better when it doesn't. When DBD works (when either side doesn't try to stomp the other) it's very enjoyable. Unfortunately, that never happens anymore.
They don't enjoy being tunneled out. That's never going to change, they will always get tunneled because even at 6K hours I get tunneled.
They don't like getting BM'd. I don't mind it a lot, in-game, but external harassment is practically a given with this community.
The game is profoundly unfun for new players and I will not lie to them. It doesn't get better, tunneling gets more efficient and Killers run better perks with more oppressive powers.
I give them the true realistic experience. If that experience is negative, that isn't on me. If it's positive, it's not on me. It is what it is.
There is realism and then there is pessimism and they get confused a lot.
"Except it's not fun, even when you have the hang of it." - Pessimism.
"I'm not going to lead them on by telling them it gets better when it doesn't" - Pessimism
"You can be tunneled even at 6k hours" - Realism it's possible to be "tunneled" in any game regardless of hours.
"they will always get tunneled and it won't change" - Pessimism, they won't always be tunneled that's just absolutist rot.
"They don't like getting BM'd" Realism - "but external harassment is practically a given with this community." - Pessimism external harassment exists but is not guaranteed.
"tunneling gets more efficient and Killers run better perks with more oppressive powers." Realism - players do get better at strong tactics and unlock better perks as they progress, but so do survivors... however you prefix and frame the point in Pessimism - "The game is profoundly unfun for new players and I will not lie to them. It doesn't get better"
If I was a new player and you said to me, lets play DBD and then framed your experience like that... I would be dissuaded too. We haven't even got to the game yet. When you play with your friends part of their positive, and/or negative, play experience is their interaction with you and that is on you.
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@TwitchVO said:
Not my experience. My friends saw the chaos and bullshit and thought it was interesting. Idk why people act like this game isn't insanely popular.
I started playing back when bear traps under hooks were a thing, fast forward years later and it's 10x more popular than I EVER expected for what it was. If people got through that #########, there's nothing I'm worried about.
I think it fits the narrative well.
"Its hard so I want to avoid it. But that's the games fault not mine"... kind of mindset.
You also have a lot of emotionally charged players who seem to hate the game but keep playing, making for a miserable play experience for others and then they wonder why no one wants to play it with them.
Look at all the videos of players telling their team mates to DC when they get downed or throwing tantrums, there are a lot of them. It amazes me that people stream this behaviour for all to see. Its like "watch me act like a big baby over a game for an hour". I'd be embarrassed by that behaviour if it was me.
How many players with that mindset right now are on the forums complaining that the game isn't friendly or fun for new players.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661932#Comment_3661932
I also have to do gens and bring a super medkit.
There's only so many hits I can take for them though.
Yes but weighing up those costs and choosing to allocate time between gens or helping your buddies is part of the game.
You can't do it all every game and nor should you be able to, so when playing with friends who are knew you may have to sacrifice some things, including yourself, in order to help them out.
Part of building a positive team experience for a new player is being part of the positive experience yourself. You can't guarantee the opponent will but you can try your best to do it.
Judging from some of the other comments in the thread
i.e. "I don't say that because I don't have it in me to lie to them.
The best I can do is say, "Play Killer." They usually say something like, "I want to play with you though, what's the point in playing if we aren't able to play the game with you." "
If you are constantly poo pooing the experience yourself then what motivation does someone else have to continue with it? If you inject nothing but negativity into it you get nothing but negativity out of it.
Maybe set expectations better, when I say "hey lets play DBD" I also say "you are gonna die a lot but trust me when you get the hang of it... its fun". I then go out of my way to try and help my new pal out even if it means getting butchered for my efforts. I'm jovial even with that outcome because my positivity will drive theirs, even if the task is hard.
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@Nick said:
You're talking about tunnel vision. Blindly chasing the first moving object you see at the start of the match. But most people mean getting chased direct off hook, when theyre at their most vulnerable.
As killer you have to play strategic if you want consistent results. You could be the best chaser in the world, but getting 8 hooks before getting a kill every game will make you lose games you easily could've won.
Finding a weak link (or someone in a weak position), and hitting them straight after the unhook or waiting out bt is in many situations very efficient.
Efficient yes but in no means bad.
Problem is not so much the technical definition of tunneling, which varies wildly, but rather the misunderstanding that getting eliminated early or "tunneled" is somehow unfair or bad play.
Its an elimination game and players are gonna take the opportunity to eliminate others early if its a viable option.
For the game to be in any way playable there has to be tangible threat from the killer and that tangible threat must be ever present. At no point as a survivor should players be immune from the threat of elimination.
Which means "tunneling" will remain a viable strategy and methods to counter tunneling should extend gameplay but not completely remove the threat of elimination. Built in BT is an example of this you've got a lil extra mechanic to assist if targeted again off hook but even with it you are still under threat of elimination.
What you often see people call for is the removal of threat of elimination as a counter to "tunneling", which basically undermines the entire premise of the game.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I don't even need to read the original post. This is troll bait. Killers aren't even remotely in the "worst state" ever. To even suggest that is the case is just hyperbole.
ugh... then why comment at all, just reading the headline is like a breeding ground for uninformed opinion.
"I didn't even engage or understand the topic but I'll comment on it anyway" Why?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662480#Comment_3662480
Yes, it’s well known that most people aren’t good at the game. When people who don’t know how to play are against each other, it favors killer. When each side knows the game, killer is at a massive disadvantage.
Again we would see a heavy skew in outcome when survivors are coordinated, which would probably be represented by a much larger survival rate between SWF and Solo as SWF tend to be the most coordinated. But the most recent numbers didn't have that big of a skew, it was like less than 10% if I recall.
So if killer is only disadvantaged in the rare circumstance that they face a highly coordinated, highly experienced team and by the numbers highly coordinated, highly experienced teams are not representative of the majority of games.
Then you are looking at a very tiny number of games were you are disadvantaged from game start purely due to match up. Intrinsically killer has the mechanical advantage because the survivor advantage is reliant on team coordination something outside of BHVR's control.
This again is represented by the kill vs escape ratio favoring killer overall.
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We need to stop confusing playing to win as "being mean" and "playing nice" as some ill defined way of playing to the opponent's advantage.
Its not "nice" to go for 12 hooks just as it isn't "mean" to eliminate someone early for the gains.
These terms are highly subjective, rather indefinable, and completely useless for making game design decisions.
The most egregious offence though is that these terms extend beyond the game to the player - Implying that the player themselves is or isn't nice because they played a certain way. Its a platform for enabling toxicity.
Its not an "ideal world" that a killer would always twelve hook everybody, in fact that is a predictable and uninteresting world. Games have variation and stakes, the more you shoehorn toward one singular outcome the blander the game experience becomes.
If you feel you have to "tunnel" in order to be competitive then maybe look to your own gameplay... are you chasing effectively? are you dropping chase when you should? are you using slugging and hit an run effectively? Its possible to pressure gens and not "tunnel". That said there is no better pressure than eliminating a player so if you get the opportunity to do it then you probably should.
That's not mean that's just DBD its an elimination game and always should be, elimination should be an ever present threat from game start to finish.
Just to apply my own subjective take - when I play survivor I want to try and survive a horror movie, I want the killer to be as "mean" and monstrous as possible, because trying to escape from that, against all odds, is fun.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650083#Comment_3650083
I don’t think the game is headed toward balance though. It’s continually shifting towards survivors. Part of the problem is that base mechanics and maps, not perks, makes survivors too strong, and BHVR has done very little to help. The basic math of tile density, pallets, and time wasted after the killer gets a hit encourages killer to play defensively rather than for chases (the fun part of the game.)
The point I’m making is that in the first few years I was playing, there were ways to slow the game down enough to go for more chases rather than picking an area of the map to defend. Now even with perfect chases, you don’t have enough time to try to win the game. It’s boring.
I'm afraid the killer skew in outcome that BHVR has reported doesn't support your opinion. If the game was survivor skewed, you would expect a different outcome being recorded that was opposite to what we are actually seeing.
That's the problem with pesky empirical measurement, it doesn't really care how we feel or think and won't change to fit our opinion. We have to modify our opinion to fit the data and the data is saying killers kill more than survivors escape.
That's why I said if you are complaining that there is a loss of variable strategy, and a blander game experience, due to games playing out in a similar fashion... Then you'd have something. Because with the new anti-camp and the new anti 3 gen plus built in BT and a bunch of other changes, we are generally seeing one style of play being favored by the mechanics more than others and frankly that's bland. But as for the game being survivor sided the current kill vs escape numbers BHVR released just don't support that point of view.
"This forum isn’t the majority of the playerbase. People who post on here, generally, care more about the game than the average dbd player." - I'd be really careful with this one too as it assumes the motivation of forum posters and to apply directly to the topic it has to also assume that regular forum posters are likely higher MMR. There is no evidence, or even measure, of this whatsoever.
I'd wager a lot of opinions about the game being unbalanced can be boiled down to players overestimating themselves rather than genuine mechanical or balance issues.
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This was the goal wasn't it.
Narrow the gap between SWF and Solo and balance around a 60/40 Kill/escape rate.
Looks like behavior hit the nail on the head (for the most part) and got game outcome to where they were planning it to be.
Guess all the naysayers will have to pack up their bags and just go play the game and stop whining about it now... bummer eh.
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No killer really is not in the worst state ever.
Yes some of the more threatening elements of playing killer have been toned down which overall makes the game a lil less exciting to play. (I miss old moris for instance).
But killer is stronger then they've probably ever been. There is a distinct skew in game outcome that favors killer overall (this is a good thing).
"Killers were stronger back in 2018. Like yea, the weakest killers were all weaker than they are now, but there was actual power killers like Nurse and Spirit. Now every killer feels gimped, is loaded with cooldowns, and has mostly worthless addons. Modern dbd brought killers closer together, but weaker as a whole." Now this is almost a good point. Its not the overall strength of killers that has been lost but moreso the variation in game play.
The game seems to be gravitating toward a generally fixed style of play. So in an effort to "standardize" the game experience we lose some of the unique elements of some killers. It was those elements that made some killers more interesting to play. The guessing game surrounding old spirit for example, basement trapper or Bubba again.
So if your gripe is that we are moving toward a more consistent and hence bland standard of gameplay I'm all ears, but if you package that as "killers are too weak" then I'm afraid your off the mark.
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People put their profiles on private mostly because folks go around calling them scumbags and worse over a game.
It’s hard to take a stand against perceived toxicity when you are actively partaking in real toxicity. Just saying.
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I feel like I dodged a bullet here.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649235#Comment_3649235
Foolish comparison? Dude I built my argument based on your points on a related topic that "causes tunneling" to show how they are easily counterable. They are therefore related, no matter how hard you pretend they aren't.
I wasn't agreeing with you, just pointing out how flawed your argument is and how it could be used to justify a different topic related (yet apparently not) to the issue. Point still stands. It's not an us vs. them because I play both roles so don't strawman the argument to tribalism lmao.
I don't think you knew what my "snide" goal was so don't pretend as if there wasn't any.
You didn't build any argument you just copied the point for a different topic that it can also be applied to, which in no way undermines the point.
Applying the same point to something else in the same way only validates the point for the new thing too. No counter point has been made, if you think it has then you clearly don't understand how to make a point.
Here is the interaction as simple as I can make if for you
ME - The square is blue
YOU - The triangle is also blue... so there!
ME - What's your point?
YOU - I don't have one but they correlate... so there!
ME - Alrighty then.
That's the simplest I can outline the interaction and I can't make the example any more engaging for you as I don't have any hand puppets.
(I didn't pretend there wasn't a snide goal I pointed it out, this is my snide reply.. you're really bad at this).
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lol the antagonism that frames this question.
I don’t think the devs are that bothered by it.
Mostly because it’s a case of “the boy who cried swf.” It’s very easy to cry swf.
Its a great excuse when you lose and don’t want to feel bad about that.