pseudechis
pseudechis
About
- Username
- pseudechis
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717037#Comment_3717037
Do you know what makes me "give up"? tunneling
If I get saved from the hook and the killer is nearby, and they come for me again, I just give them the down and let go the skill checks. If they wanna win so bad then I will help them
I'd say at least 50% of the survivor players giving up is because tunneling is such a prevalent strategy that nothing can be done. If tunneling was virtually impossible to do I'm positive the suicides would decrease
So if chased again off hook you just give up rather than try to escape from chase or sink time to allow for you team to get the objective done?
Here's a harsh pill to swallow but it needs to be said… Tunneling is not the problem, players like you are.
Additionally giving the killer the option to just open the gates and quit at any point is also a bad idea. The game would degenerate even more so into "its not going perfectly so I quit".
-
It's childish but frankly banning players over it is a complete overaction.
-
I don't know on what basis you make the claim that killer payers complain more about DC's than survivors.
Quitters ruin games for all regardless of what side they play.
Someone here did comment that posters are frequently rationalizing why they quit, so it stands to reason that if they are a quitter they probably aren't complaining about their own behaviour, just the behaviour of others.
Remember the online self victimization mantra "My bad behaviour is always someone else's fault".
-
@Nazzzak said:
The people of the internet are not okay, and DBD is no exception. Only suggestion I can make is to pick your spaces and your battles. Close endgame chat, or just leave a ggs and then move on immediately. That way you don't concern yourself with any postgame salt. I dunno if I'd call the community toxic personally. There are certainly toxic individuals but in my experience they are few and far between. I think it helps to just remind yourself that at the end of the day it's just a game and nothing is personal. These folks don't know you from a bar of soap, and vice versa, and the majority aren't out to intentionally give you a bad time.
Re the streamer, you said he asked to be hooked and the last person then got hatch. So I'm guessing it was just the two of them left when he asked to be hooked? Lots of killers will slug the third survivor and then search for the 4th, so if the game was a clear loss he may have just wanted to move on without all that shenanigans. In that situation I don't think he was too unreasonable in asking.
I've said before that I think a rep system would be good. Instead of just focusing on punishing bad behaviour, reward good behaviour. Have the thumbs up in endgame mean something. Give and gain points, get rewards, etc. Exclude swf for obvious reasons (sorry guys).
Exactly this.
As for a rep system, if the thumbs up gave some extra BP's as a lil bump that'd be a good idea.
Obviously it would have to exclude SWF but how they'd go about that I'm unsure. It can't be in any way punitive as there are many examples of streamers misusing the report system simply because they lost and are angry about it.
Community policing is only as good as the community and something tells me, like many online games, the community would kinda suck at it. Given the anonymity of the internet and the negativity it often permits.
-
Because people misinterpret or over interpret what these things are for.
DS is just a 5 sec stun if downed again off hook, its not some specific "anti-tunnel" mechanic and can be used as a player sees fit.
Word of advice if leveraging a mechanic more aggressively rather than defensively, don't complain about being slugged or tunneled.
A counter to a player using DS to bait a killer is to slug, just like a counter to a player using built in BT to block a killer is to down and re-hook them, AKA tunnel.
Its just gameplay. If you have DS and you get chased off hook and jump in a locker then that's just using DS effectively. Same goes for taking protection hits knowing you have DS up your sleeve.
I can see some issues with built in BT/DS combined because endurance is there to help you escape but running DS gives you an incentive to body block for greater effect. Which is a lil crap for killer players who aren't trying to target the unhooked survivor.
Even with that very minor quibble, we are still a long way from the old days of DS/UB lose/lose endgame plays.
-
@C3Tooth said:
I dont like hook suicide in some cases. As those who suicide on hook on early down. Or fail to toxic to killers .ect
But to what Op said, its not about killer should play like this or like that. But its the incentive for survivors to keep playing the match. Killers dont start a match knowing they cant make at least 3K. Survivors have no incentive if they know there is Zero chance to escape. So they suicide on hook.
If a teammate dies at 4 Gens (yep its killers make correct play, yep its survivors make alot of mistakes), Im just saying, for both me and Op. If I die now, or do half a Gen then die later. The results are the same: death. So I prefer to end the game early.
Also it makes killers get a kill easier so I dont understand the complain.
That's part of the problem though.
Players just give up the moment the game isn't perfect.
This happens on both sides with killers giving up if they lose 3 gens without a hook or lose the first chase and survivors the moment the killer does anything that violates the survivor rule book.
I'd wager half of the easy wins handed to players are not because of mechanics but because the player base (like a lot of online games) is infected with quitters.
Part of that problem stems from equating hard with miserable.
-
With broad enough use of the word teleport we could get a few more in the top rung of that list and bump that % up even more.
As others have pointed out the mechanics are quite different and many have limitations or requirements.
Also if spirit is a "teleport" then so is wraith he also vanishes then has to walk to a spot and reappear.
It's inevitable that some powers will be similar as there is only so much you can do within the game mechanics.
Lastly Nurse is fine. In fact more killers should be like her with powers that can completely switch up how the game is played.
-
No reason it can't work but its an all or nothing play. I'd skip opening the gate myself its usually a give away.
If they pick up the downed survivor or pop the NOED before you get good use out of it then you are potentially handing a free walk out the door by opening the gates yourself.
Nothing wrong with sticking to that plan but start building the ground work for it early. The extreme altruism so called "bully squads" tend to display is a weakness you can exploit early on. Tilt a team like this and they'll often stop the objective to confront the killer. Bloody them up as much as you can and save the endgame surprise for the mop up.
-
@Brightened said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705734#Comment_3705734
This is fair- but you are not thinking of the longevity of a game where new players are likely playing with experienced friends. People do not want to be tunneled out after just starting a new game. It makes it not fun. I don't know why this is a hard concept to grasp?
If you don't find it fun that's a shame but to blanket state that its not fun for all is just hyperbolic, because that is very subjective.
Case in point - there is nothing wrong with the two examples of gameplay you gave in the OP but you use them as reasons to quit. If regular gameplay makes you want to quit then maybe its time for a break.
I'm also talking about longevity of the game when I say things like -
"Its that freedom that generates a lot of the in game risk and when it gets attenuated the game suffers. It becomes less high stakes, more predictable and generally safer to play as survivor, which are all bad things for a survival horror."
There are two sides of the player coin and the game will oscillate between them in terms of buffs and nerfs. But one thing you don't want to break is the core concept of the game, survival horror, which a lot of suggestions to "fix" camping and tunneling often do and that will kill its longevity.
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669007#Comment_3669007
That's totally fine as well, play how you want, you paid for the game after all and it's not your job to make everyone happy.
This problem, in my eyes at least, is less about balance or optimization or efficiency and way more about actual enjoyment of the game. It's not fun to be a survivor in a game where someone gets tunneled out early. It's bland, boring, and un-interactive.
This game does not have a ranked mode or competitive scene, so it should be designed in a way that optimizes enjoyment. I don't really see an argument for tunneling to be the most efficient strategy and also requiring extremely little effort on the killers side, while requiring a coordinated effort to prevent it from survivors that are more than likely not communicating.
There's a reason that tunneling is the number one complaint in this game, it's just not enjoyable at all for the 4 players on survivor. You hold M1 on a gen and hope that the guy getting tunneled gives you enough time to hold M1 for 4 minutes, or take hits and more than likely not make a difference anyways. It's just a bland experience all around the board.
I don't find a game with tunneling to be any less enjoyable to play than a game without it.
Put simply if the killer targets only one player then I've got extra time with which to complete the objective, I take advantage of that time. Most games involving early elimination or "tunneling" still result in plenty of interaction for myself with the killer towards the endgame. Sometimes more if the team have progressed the objective enough (3-4 gens). It permits me time to interfere with the killers attempts to hook the same person again and take some protection hits/aggro.
So the concept that it ruins the game does not hold true for all survivor players. In fact it barely holds true for those who complain when you dig under the surface a lil. Because they blame tunneling even when it isn't present.
Most of DBD isn't very interactive even when the killer doesn't "tunnel", but folks don't tend to complain about that. All they tend to see is tunneling. We've hit a point where "tunneling" has become a convenient excuse for not getting exactly the game that someone wants.
@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668866#Comment_3668866
Wow, 2 minutes to write that reply to OP. Im genuinely impressed lol.
Anyway! A lot being said here, and a mod already chastised so I can't be as 'flowery' as I'd like. But regarding mentality, it's all on killer when its a case of 'Game starts, tunneling.' There's times its needed and called for, but out the gate is either malicious intentions for the other players or they had a bad game last few rounds and need a win.
Both suck, one is kind of understandable, and one is defended as 'I need to win.' These are just arguments the tunneling crowd has, despite how weak it really is. It's merely their decision to do it. No one is playing for them. If their mentality is 'I need to tunnel to win,' then yeah, its a mentality problem.
BHVR is capable of making a game 'everyone' playing it at any given time can enjoy. DBD seems to be that outlier, and also one that people defend making things miserable for their own playerbase. We might be killers and survivor mains, but we're all part of the same game. Though I do like to look at this as 'Man humans are wonderful due to the differences!"
This is part of the "mentality" issue. You qualified "tunneling" as being one of two things, both malicious and/or personal in intent. Being eliminated early is not a personal slight in an elimination game, thinking it is… is the mentality issue.
Saying that a player is maliciously trying to ruin your or other's fun because they try and eliminate a player early in an elimination game is a terrible way to approach the game.
DBD isn't an outlier in this case it's just like every other online game. There are players who want particular gameplay and outcome and when they don't get it they project all their annoyance onto the opponent and/or teammates. You notice players who do this always use the same language to describe their play experience as miserable, their opponents as scummy etc.
I don't assume the motivation of a player who "tunnels", nor hold any hard feelings against someone who "tunnels" me out and neither should any player. Its just gameplay.
-
I wouldn't say annoying but the most disappointing is one who fails to be an adequate threat of elimination.
Nothing sadder than running circles around a killer who just can't catch you and being under no threat whatsoever.
The farming killer falls into this too… I didn't sign up to play ring around the rosie… I signed up to try and escape from the big scary monster.
-
I don't really think any killer is "unfun". Its such a subjective concept.
I don't like twins because they have a power that kinda sucks in general.
I also don't like trickster but that's because I think he's ridiculous and in no way find it scary or interesting to play or play against him.
But "unfun" eh its a poor way to describe it.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704011#Comment_3704011
You aren't going to get the same level of equal play and interaction across all games but that isn't a bad thing.
And organically, that occurs to an extent that is perfectly fine. Depending on player skill, you might get more or less interaction, but you're generally going to have a game with, say, anywhere between 60 and 100% interactivity.
But that is a very far cry from a singular player, intentionally, single-handedly, deciding that this match is going to be 30% or less.
While some may find this frustrating, the moment it gets watered down the game goes from a horror experience to being just a game of tag.
It literally doesn't. Tunnelling and camping do not 'elevate' DBD above a game of tag. They devolve it by putting out of play a large amount of elements that elevate it above tag.
DBD shines because of its grittier and dirtier parts, camping, tunneling, gen rushing, tilting your opponent are all part of that grittier aspect.
I'm pretty sure you're the first person to ever dare the claim that DBD 'shines' due to camping and tunnelling.
And it's clear the devs don't agree with that, either.
I'd rather play 100 games against a camping or tunneling killer where they have license to kill as they choose over 1 where the killer choices are fixed and play is wholly predictable and relatively safe.
Those are not the only two options, not by a long shot. This makes it sound like you've been tunnelling/camping for so long, you've forgotten what DBD is outside of that.
While I don't feel it necessary for any player to justify how or why they play. Since you've now made assumptions about how I play part of your argument, it needs to be addressed.
No I don't really camp and tunnel much. I may if I think defending a hook is warranted or its past the mid game and I want to secure a kill for pressure but outside of those scenarios I find pressuring gens isn't really that big of an effort, for the most part.
The point wasn't just about camping and tunneling, it was about killer license to target and kill whom they choose, which is an important part of the game.
Its that freedom that generates a lot of the in game risk and when it gets attenuated the game suffers. It becomes less high stakes, more predictable and generally safer to play as survivor, which are all bad things for a survival horror.
When the killer has license to kill whom they choose then inevitably some players will camp and tunnel. The ability to defend a hook or eliminate a player of choice, just killer license in general, should not be undermined simply because "wahh its annoying", which is really the only argument you've offered up.
Unless BHVR decide that they aren't legit play and patch them out somehow… you'll just have to be annoyed I guess, which frankly I'm fine with.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703940#Comment_3703940
There is more to DBD than just being chased by the killer…
This is the exact problem with tunnelling though…
Some games will involve a lot of chasing, some games will involve a lot of doing gens, some games may have you lie on the ground for a long time. Heck some games you may get hooked and that will be your game, one chase and then die on hook. These things are all part of playing DBD.
You aren't going to get the same level of equal play and interaction across all games but that isn't a bad thing.
Its one of the things that makes DBD as good as it is; is the stakes are high when playing survivor. Because you are at the whim of the killer to some extent, just like a horror film, it can be very costly to get caught.
While some may find this frustrating, the moment it gets watered down the game goes from a horror experience to being just a game of tag.
DBD shines because of its grittier and dirtier parts, camping, tunneling, gen rushing, tilting your opponent are all part of that grittier aspect.
I'd rather play 100 games against a camping or tunneling killer where they have license to kill as they choose over 1 where the killer choices are fixed and play is wholly predictable and relatively safe.
To go back to the question what's the point of playing?… well because that's DBD love it or leave it.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703946#Comment_3703946
Actually, when I made that comment about that kind of behaviour, I was referring to things like WS spamming and teabagging, but Pseudechis made it about tunnelling.
To be fair the topic was camping and tunneling and you didn't specify that comment referenced to mean only things like WS spamming and tea bagging, just "behaviour"… so to infer its use to describe camping and tunneling was completely appropriate at the time.
I'm more than happy to accept your explanation. But must note it coming after the inappropriateness has been pointed out does cast a slight cloud of its genuinity.
Never the less the label implies that only someone who was one would engage in described play which is still just resorting to insults over gameplay. So Raccoon's point still stands also.
-
@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703940#Comment_3703940
I must have missed all the 'a-hole' talk.
Mega cringe to refer to people playing a game whatever way as such :(
Shame people can't discuss things based in reality instead of their own heated feelings.
To be fair its been some long posts, I don't blame people for missing parts of them or even expect people to read all or any of it.
I'm killing time waiting for an autoclave to finish with not much else to do so why not, but I do sometimes ask myself if I put to much effort into this. Guess its all in good fun.
Looks like the mods have gone through and ####'ed all the ' ' talk. I tip my hat to them can't be the most fun having to trawl through online negativity and edit it out all the time. Although sometimes I wish the cursing would stay we are all adults here anyway or should be given the games rating. (I'm not naïve enough to simply believe that though).
But yes devolving to insults of other players simply because they don't play how you would like them too is one of the great failings of online gamers.
-
@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703655#Comment_3703655
OP didn't mention in their first post that the Killer targeted the unhooked Survivor immediately after teleporting though? The ending sentence about OP dying on hook gives off the impression that OP went down after the teleport and decided to give up on hook.
Having a conversation about tunneling/camping is fine but the Singularity scenario is not a very good example as it borders more on OP not being familiar with Singularity mechanics or deciding to make a risky play despite knowing the mechanics and the Killer capitalizing on it.Exactly this, a scenario where a player has died, very little game detail and the culprit must be camping and/or tunneling because they are the most convenient culprits when players die.
DBD is starting to hit a point where there is almost a complex formed around the terms camping and tunneling that extends beyond any tangible aspect of them in game.
The phrase "nerf tunneling" makes a great slogan but what does it even mean. Its so vague to be almost pointless.
-
Doesn't matter if it's a "nerf" or "buff" - spinning your wheels on this one.
Fun is subjective and the gameplay is appropriate for the theme. As I said just because you don't like some gameplay that doesn't invalidate it.
You're simplifying the point again with your "appeal to authority" take. Its not that its automatically good just because BHVR say so and players are welcome to critique it. But its part of the game so until something changes expect it might happen. I personally don't think it's problem on this we disagree and that's fine. BHVR have final say on that though and if its not for you then maybe DBD isn't for you.
If you insist on simplifying things then for example - I don't play candy crush its not for me, I also don't expect the developers of candy crush to change their game simply because I'm not a fan. If you aren't a fan move on already.
Here's a quick answer for you - One game has more interaction but both have gameplay.
Interaction is not the be all and end all of gameplay. You may think it is but its not. If you crave constant interaction then some parts of DBD are going to disappoint you. Which is very clear that's what you crave so stock up on disappointment there is a lot coming.
You are still playing the game when countering camping and tunneling. You are simply interacting with game items and enviroment rather than the killer player. Survivors have stuff to do when the killer camps and tunnels its just not interacting with the killer.
There is more to DBD than just being chased by the killer… you may dismiss everything else other than that but there is more. Those other things actually make up a larger portion of the game than player interaction. You choosing to ignore them as gameplay doesn't make them any less gameplay.
Same as your choosing to call players ######### because they don't play how you prefer, it doesn't make them an #########. Same as your dislike of lack of direct interaction doesn't invalidate all of the non-interactive parts of the game.
Its very clear you have an expectation from the game and don't like it when those expectations aren't met. Well guess what… tough. Suck it up or rage quit, the choice is yours. But if you are going to quit do so before you queue up and ruin the game for people who aren't quitters, even when they don't get the specific gameplay they want.
-
@Livion said:
I do agree that nowadays killers don't play honorably and the survivors definitely feel much weaker now.
In a perfect world none of the sides would be in a power trip but the best we can hope is to close the gap between the two as much as we can.
About the hooks being next to each other I think an amazing solution to that would be: spread the hooks and now they don't break when you sacrifice
To be fair a killer player doesn't have to play "honorably" by any definition. For the PvP aspect of the game then they have to abide by the rules but how they choose to do that is up to them. Same goes for survivors.
I agree though survivor is not as competitive 1v1 with the killer anymore but that's not necessarily a bad thing given the asymmetric nature of the game. That asymmetry also requires some imbalance in the game design to achieve the concept. Which is big scary killer hunts survivors. The game needs a compelling antagonist, in this case the killer has to represent a tangible threat which will likely lead to some imbalance.
I don't think it s a perfect world to completely "balance" the game but how much imbalance is too much is definitely a worth while consideration.
I like the idea of further spacing hooks and they don't break, but it does shut down some of the tactical element of trying to play into dead zones for survivors. Which I think is still a fun aspect of the game. Planning where to hook to avoid a dead zone should also be a part of killer play. These elements play a big part in how and where you run/chase.
-
Counters to gameplay don't invalidate gameplay. They are simply counters. Almost every mechanic in game can de said to be a counter to another particular mechanic or gameplay. For example players repair gens killers can kick them to regress gens does this mean that repairing or kicking gens is invalid because a mechanic exists to counter it. No not "Almost like they're not valid gameplay" that's a complete fallacy.
If the player lost legitimately and is losing interest in play when they lose legitimately then its not a game problem. Maybe DBD isn't the game for them or even online gaming in general if losing legitimately causes them to want to quit.
The ol adage "if you are going to dice rage then perhaps avoid games that require dice."
Its you whom defined legitimate opponent behaviour as being an ######### refer to my previous comment below
"Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay."
I'm afraid being frustrated by the game and defining play you don't like as other players being ######### says more about you as a gamer and your expectations of others, than it does about the game itself.
You are still playing even when not interacting with the killer, player interaction is just one aspect of the game.
I'm afraid just quitting because the game isn't to your liking is not an example of "The only winning move is not to play" although it may be the best move to not play if you don't like the game, but make that decision before you sign up to play rather than quit and ruin everyone else's fun.
-
@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703103#Comment_3703103
The in-game tutorial teaches new players to throw pallets when they see the killer (even though the killer is carrying Meg and is 10 meters away from Dwight).
So in the game they throw the pallets even though there is another survivor behind them just because they saw the killer
All the tutorial does is show the prompt the drop the pallet. Perhaps it shows it too soon and a prompt to drop the pallet and get the save would be better.
I'm afraid its a stretch to say it trains people to basically sandbag you with a pallet.
-
Strategy is part of gameplay. Having the option to switch up the game tempo by defending a hook is healthier than having every game play out the same way. BHVR are making mechanics to reduce the most "unhealthy" versions of these tactics.
Also the OP wasn't really subject to "unhealthy" tunneling or camping from their example, they just got caught out by player mistakes and a killer who capitalized on them. So there really isn't a constructive element to a lot of this discussion outside of "I lost and am angry about it." I blame tunneling and camping because that's what you are supposed to do. "I feel angry about the outcome" isn't the most constructive of feedback.
"Its just a skin" like I said you are ignoring the theme, to make a more simplified point about the mechanics.
It's not just a game of tag, because loss means elimination, there is consequence when playing DBD. That consequence is elimination from the game, here personified by the death of the player as you would expect from a horror game.
######### behavior as you put it is more likely to be immersion breaking when survivors conduct it rather than killers. Because as the antagonist, the killer is expected to be an #########. Someone who chases you, subjects you to non-participation and then elimination is an ######### but that is the killer role.
That annoyance and frustration you and many describe, as loath as folks may be to admit it, is born of the fear of, or at least the aversion to, elimination. So DBD through its mechanics elicits an emotional response consistent with aversion. Aversion being one of the core concepts of horror.
Camping is still player interaction. Defending a hook increases the risk of making saves. If players choose not to take that risk that is up to them.
-
The game is still fun.
I miss some of its nastier elements, DBD shines when its kinda confronting to play.
The forums can be just as entertaining. In the right dosage there can be a lot of negativity here.
-
@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Reading these comments it's no wonder DBD is in the state it's in.
And this is also why survivors can't have things like knowing your team's build before the match.
Exactly, players always asking to see builds or which killer or addons, ugh it'd be the last game you ever played that wasn't preceded by an endless stream of lobby dodgers.
The arrogance, entitlement and unrealistic expectations of other players is the biggest turn off to online gaming.
-
@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703020#Comment_3703020
The result is my team throwing pallets at me and the killer is right behind me
How exactly does the tutorial induce this?
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702617#Comment_3702617
The devs never called them valid gameplay, they called them valid strategies. Both diminish gameplay, camping moreso than tunnelling.
The devs are also not the be-all-end-all, they've been wrong on plenty of occasions.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702622#Comment_3702622
It's not me being desensitised to it, it's the game's design flow too. There's no scary moments that belong to the horror-survival genre. Nothing about DBD qualifies it to be horror survival. Elements that it did have, have been pared down over time.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
That's why I specified 'when everyone plays their cards right'. Sitting under a hook waiting for a person to die results in you as killer not doing anything, the person on hook not doing anything, and the survivors only getting to hold M1 on gens. It's death of gameplay.
Firstly - You are really splitting hairs here, valid strategy is part of valid gameplay. Camping and tunneling are part of that and valid as a result.
Whether you like what decisions they make or not, BHVR are the game developers, its their game. We all just pay to play it, like any product.
There is nothing wrong with providing feedback to suggest changes but really if its not constructive its largely pointless and most of the complaining about game mechanics is not really constructive feedback.
Its a great buzz term "the games design flow" but what do you really mean by it? The violence, gore, theme and concept of the game all belong in the survival horror genre. What part of violently stalking, torturing and killing a group of captive survivors while they desperately try to escape doesn't belong in the horror genre?
That's like saying there is not enough sex, drugs and violence in Fall Guys to make it a family friendly game. Its like your choosing to ignore the concepts that make up the horror genre and the concept of DBD in order to simplify a point about its mechanics.
Halloween, Nightmare on elm street, Friday the 13th aren't scary to me since I was a kid, but that doesn't stop them being horror films. The same holds true for DBD.
Secondly - What you mean here is interaction. Yes interaction is part of gameplay but its not the be all and end all of gameplay because avoiding interaction is part of gameplay too.
Its not the most interactive of games as you put it "when everyone plays their cards right" but its still a game of DBD. If you want more interaction from that scenario then force it, get in the killer's face, try and rescue your team mate.
-
@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702622#Comment_3702622
A lot of people that play DBD only seem to enjoy 'perfect/ideal' gameplay from either side...which is rarely the reality in any game involving actual people.
Reality is a lot of people don't like DBD but play DBD for whatever reason then develop some weird stances that seem to stem from cognitive dissonance.
Yep normalizing the concept of only accepting the very personalized "ideal game" is a very common problem in online gaming in general.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702937#Comment_3702937
They show you a short demonstration in which the wild pokemon is usually brought down to red (I think there was 1 generation that differed but I'm not sure). The tutorial only serves the purpose of introducing the core gameplay, which includes looping, not dropping a pallet when the killer is 10 metres away. More detailed explanations (like faking pallets / increasing the odds to catch a pokemon) are not necessary to start playing the game.
If the example of Meg looping the Trapper is not self-explanatory, then a short explanation like: "Meg has still a little bit of distance but will likely not make it very far before getting hit. So she proceeds to waste as much of the killer's time as possible by running around a "loop" before dropping the pallet. This allows her to extend the chase while saving resources." It's a simple explanation, that a beginner should understand too. Although, they might want to find a better way to phrase this as it's literally just the firs thing I came up with.
This is my point its not that there couldn't be more to the advice given by the tutorial its just that the level of advice you propose is beyond what the tutorial is really for.
The tutorial is so you can pick up the game and play it. That's its function, its a technical manual. Its not a boot camp to train you to be the a better player.
They have load screen comments with little pieces of advice but integrating that into the tutorial is generally more than the tutorial needs to do.
So yes the tutorial may have you use the drop pallet command while the killer is further away, but its only job is to show you HOW to drop the pallet. WHEN to drop the pallet most effectively will change depending on what killer, what perks, the loop. That aspect inevitably has to be learned through experience.
Is it a thorough enough tutorial? that's up for debate, but remember a tutorial is not there to replace your learning experience, its merely to get you started and that's what it does.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702625#Comment_3702625
If the tutorial doesn't tell you how the game fundamentally works, then it's a bad tutorial and in this case, this is not how the game works. Instead of telling new players to drop pallets whenever the killer is around them, how about we teach them to actually look out for them in chase and stun the killer?
In the most mechanical sense it is how the game works. Press this button to drop the pallet.
That's what the tutorial shows you, mechanically how to drop a pallet.
Maybe more tips on when best to use it could be included but that's not really the tutorials job.
For example
- It tells you how to unhook someone but doesn't advise on how long to wait before attempting a rescue.
- It tells you what button to press to swing and lunge but doesn't tell you how to time lunges to maximize hit chance or how to move while swinging in order to catch people who 360.
- I tells you what killer heartbeat is but not when is it best to flee when you hear it.
Do you see the point. The tutorial demonstrates the mechanics of the game, after completing the tutorial you should be able to mechanically play the game. Knowing how to activate each mechanic and what it does… how best to utilize those mechanics is a learned skill through experience of gameplay.
-
@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702473#Comment_3702473
The point is that the tutorial teaches new players that they should throw the pallets as soon as they see the killer
The tutorial simply shows how pallets work, how best to use them and when is a learned skill.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702606#Comment_3702606
Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
DBD stopped being horror survival a long time ago.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
It's not 'gameplay', it's the avoidance of gameplay. All players playing their cards right, no one interacts with each other from that point on.
The game didn't change just because you became desensitized to it. Its still very much a survival horror regardless of some players efforts to undermine that.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay.
-
Trapper seaside psycho. Great.
-
1st game, smart play on killers part to block the hook save. Well done to them.
2nd game, killer gets lucky play/survivor error with two close downs. Hooks both near each other and defends that to capitalize on error.
Both games are perfectly good gameplay and no excuse to quit.
OP can't accept gameplay and rage quits. Comes to forum to moan about it and accuse game of being killer sided.
Thread in a nutshell.
-
@Sandt1985 said:
This does pose an interesting question: Are survivors entitled to a free reset per hook? (An unhook, healed to full, and the killer going after someone else is what I'd call a reset.) Furthermore, are there any instances where proxy camping wouldn't be frowned upon, such as you knowing survivors are near by, or a gen you want to defend in that vicinity?
I'd love a survivors input on this.Absolutely not.
As survivor your goal is to try and survive against the odds. Resetting the game condition for each player just because they got hooked completely undermines the point of the game.
Its akin to just having everyone respawn constantly so no one ever dies and then no one ever has to feel bad or quit because they lost in a manner they didn't like.
Its an attempt make DBD as toothless and as generic a game experience as possible then all the quitters can feel safe and happy.
Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702448#Comment_3702448
You HAVE urgency. Because the timer still stays the same for burning through hook states. If a team leaves someone on the hook and doesn't get them and instead does gens. Now you have
1 person on hook
1 person being chased
2 on gens
Now you down that person you are chasing, and they probably burned through 2-3 hook states. You hook the guy you were chasing, you just burned 4 hook states. You can't just leave someone there.
I understand the mechanics, but it only works in the specific scenario that you have another player go down in chase. Outside of that specific scenario there is no urgency to rescue the first player hooked.
If the remaining players choose to stealth out, evade chase they can still complete gens without urgency to rescue the hooked survivor because they now collectively have 6 mins from one hook with which to complete gens.
It only makes sense to make a rescue if survivors are going down quick enough to deplete the shared timer. If they aren't then there is no incentive to rescue the hooked player. That time is better spent focusing on a gen.
You are essentially nullifying the urgency to rescue by making it causal on how fast survivors are going down rather than the need to rescue a specific player on hook. If the killer isn't securing multiple hooks then the team can leave that first person on hook for the full 6 mins and use that time to finish gens.
6 mins is enough time for 2 players to likely complete remaining gens without needing to rescue the hooked player. Its not a great idea.
-
@not_Queef said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699838#Comment_3699838
So if a player "on average" experiences tunneling in ~1-2 games out of 5, how big of an impact is it really having?
1-2 games out of 5 would be extremely concerning and a far cry from the "hardly ever happens" being peddled above.
Really you play 10 games of DB and see tunneling in 2-3 of them and that's a massive impact?
I think you overstate the issue. Especially when the issue is so ill-defined that a lot of it is likely imagined or assumed resulting in the actual measure being inflated.
So we have a subjective inflated variable that happens roughly a 1/4 of the time. I'm sorry that's not impactful in any sense of the word.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701875#Comment_3701875
There's plenty of urgency, because there is a survivor not doing gens slowing you down. Also, they still burn through the team's health states if they don't get them, getting the team closer to losing.
The second one, the point is that you give them a "timeout" so the killer gets more time by hooking them then they do by slugging them, or trying to tunnel someone.
Actually its far better mechanically to leave the player on hook then to rescue them. Because of the combined timer you now have 6 mins to rescue from first hook. So you don't really need to rescue the person till a second survivor goes down and gets hooked.
That cumulative time is better used to focus on gens than pausing to rescue, so it does create a scenario where the first player hooked hangs on hook for longer due to reduced urgency in unhooking. Good teams will figure this out and the better play will be to leave the first player hanging there while they smash out gens because of the reduced urgency to make an immediate save.
Essentially early game slow down due to getting someone hooked is largely nullified by the lack of urgency to rescue that first hooked survivor. The urgency only comes after multiple players have been hooked and by then gens should be mostly complete. So it's incredibly unbalanced and likely to leave players with a game experience of hanging on hook for up to 6mins. Its really not a good idea.
The second as pointed out offers way to much for a hook save, it guaranteed to be safe, it provides complete game immunity and a free health state. It also removes the pressure of being hooked because you teleport over to the furthest survivor, which means they don't even really need to leave their gen to get the save.
So again we undermine the pressure gained from hooks, we make the player immune to gameplay and then offer them a free health state. Its beyond OP nuts, add in the convoluted teleport mechanic and you've got this mess of a bonus that really throws the game out of whack.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699830#Comment_3699830
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699910#Comment_3699910
So there were basically 2 main ideas i have floated around here that would address tunneling. The first is to heavily heavily discourage it, the second is to make it literally completely impossible, while requiring some heavy balance changes for both sides.
1st idea:
- Remove the 4% mechanic (its dumb, gives survivors a way avoid the DC penalty at worst, and at best it completely turns the game around due to pure RNG, causing a killer to lose for something they had no control over because the game decided to give them a completely skill-less 4% at that moment)
- Things like deliverance can stay, same with the sable perk for basement unhooks, but you'd have to rework stuff like slippery meat and the luck mechanic. (probably rework luck to give you rarer items in chests or something)
- Survivors now share the FIRST hook state. But keep the second and 3rd hooks as their individual hooks.
- What this means is that when you hook a survivor once, and then hook that same survivor again, they still are on the 1st hook stage. Because the 1st hook stage is shared among all survivors.
- This does a few things:
- Tunneling becomes heavily discouraged, because you have to burn through 6 hook states to kill someone, meaning you can't "tunnel someone out early"
- Camping becomes heavily discouraged, because if you camp someone, it will take a full 6 hook states and 6 minutes for the person to die. 3 survivors should be able to finish 5 gens before 6 minutes with the killer not defending them.
- Because only the first hook state is shared, if you end up with a bad teammate who burns through your teams hooks "quickly" you won't feel cheated and die instantly, so you are still guaranteed at least 2 hooks to die, giving you a "second chance" in a chase.
- Survivors can't avoid the DC penalty anymore to get out a match they don't like.
Now, this problem WOULD address tunneling in that it discourages it, but as many have pointed out, they keep "discouraging" things, but it doesn't actually stop people from doin them. People who want to tunnel are still gonna tunnel. So my personal preference is to make it literally 100% totally IMPOSSIBLE to tunnel. So…
2nd idea:
- Remove the basekit BT
- Remove the Anti facecamp mechanic
- Rework a perks like BT, second wind, etc. With this mechanic i'd also rework the anti-tunnel ones like OTR and DS because they'd be pretty OP combined with the idea.
- When a survivor is unhooked they gain a new status effect called "Ethereal" for 30 seconds, that effectively works like the survivor version of the spirit's power. While Ethereal:
- The survivor is invisible to the killer
- The survivor makes 0 noise from the killer perspective
- The survivor leaves no scratch marks
- The survivor leaves no pools of blood
- The survivor sees the aura of all their teammates.
- The survivor moves at 200% movement speed
- The survivor has no hitbox
- The survivor is unaffected by any perks (whether they be their teammates, their own, or the killers)
- The survivor is unaffected by any killer power (hag traps don't do anything or trigger, they can walk over trapper traps etc.)
- The survivor is unable to perform a conspicuous action (no repairing gens, healing, or literally anything)
- When the effect wears off, the survivor is automatically healed to the "Healthy state" and any killer power (plague, wesker, etc.) is removed from them.
- To address camping, instead of the complicated AFC mechanic that the survivors don't know if they are building it, or how close the killer is. Simply do this (read closely because it might sound complicated):
- If the killer is within 16 meters of a hook for more than 5 seconds (with maybe a 5 second grace period to walk away) the survivor on the hook is automatically teleported to the hook that is closest to another survivor that is furthest from the killer. This happens even if another survivor is nearby, no more "it moves slower if another survivor is nearby"
- This does a few things:
- Tunneling becomes quite literally IMPOSSIBLE. The survivor basically does not exist for 30 seconds, and they are able to go anywhere they want on the map, and after they are out, they are fully healed. So even if the killer does come across them, it is a proper, reset chase. You can't tunnel what you can't see or interact with.
- The killer now KNOWS that the survivor they have hooked, is now not only on the hook, meaning they are not on a gen, but then for 30 seconds AFTER they are unhooked, they are also unable to be on a gen. This makes it work kind of like pig's power in a sense. Good pigs don't go after people who have traps on their head, they go after other people because they KNOW the ones with traps aren't doing gens. So you have this idea in your mind that a survivor who has been hooked is now on a "time out' giving you time to go after other survivors
- Camping in this method also becomes nearly IMPOSSIBLE. Because if you get too close for just a few seconds, the survivor is automatically teleported to the closest hook to the survivor that is furthest from the killer. This means that even if the killer was trying to camp, by the time they ran to the new hook the survivor teleported to, the other survivor should have been able to unhook them. Meaning that the survivor who was unhooked, is now safe from the killer for at least 30 seconds.
The 2nd method would completely make tunneling impossible from a gameplay perspective. But, it likely needs some tweaks. Generally it is assumed that tunneling is "required" in a lot of situations, so maybe 30 seconds is not enough of a "time out" for the survivor to also get fully healed. Perhaps that number needs to be longer. Or perhaps the survivor also gets a debuff to their gen repair speeds for a bit after it wears off. Or perhaps 30 seconds is just too long, and it needs to be shorter. Either way, a lot of tweaking needs to be done with the numbers, but the fundamental mechanic is to make tunneling impossible.
Also you'd probably need to buff wesker and plague a bit as their power kind of relies on the idea that it continues to work after a survivor is unhooked. You'd also probably need to have all of this apply to pyramid head cages as well. You'd also probably have to adjust pig's traps in some way as well in order to account for this mechanic. There's minor things that would need to be done to several killers basically to deal with this.
1st Idea
Problem is that without any urgency to rescue, what is the motivation to save someone from a 6 min hook?
Its far better to play stealthy and leave the 1st player on hook while focusing on gens than to stop gens and attempt rescue. Basically while BHVR are trying to minimize the likelihood of spending all game hanging on hook this option creates a scenario where its best if one player does just that. First person hooked is all but guaranteed to spend ~6 mins on hook. So not a great solution.
2nd idea,
Is way to convoluted to work well. Also it basically turns every hook into a safe unhook with a free health state. Which is way to much of a benefit for being unhooked.
Two things you can never do to survivor gameplay is; remove urgency from the tasks or make survivors completely immune to threat from the killer. Those two elements are the core of survivor play, they are the reason you are trying to escape. Remember survivor is the role of a desperate victim trying to escape and DBD needs to emulate that.
Idea 1 removes urgency, while Idea 2 both removes urgency and induces immunity. So neither are good ideas I'm afraid.
-
@not_Queef said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9AIUSM84ISL9/screenshot-2024-04-12-145826.png
Maybe I'm missing something but how is an average of 21-40% insignificant?
In addition to folks pointing out the the non-significance comes from comparing the trend across time points, it also looks pretty similar across region too. So not a lot of difference in perception of tunneling regardless of when or where you play.
But the use of average here is a little misleading. We don't have counts of instances of tunneling, what we have is the average respondent answered in this bracket. So mean is not an entirely appropriate measure of significance here. The last bracket also include the 0 counts which likely overly influences any averages.
If you want to take anything from the graphs as a whole, its that perception of tunneling is skewed toward the lower end, which means players in general, according to the categories of this survey, feel they are being tunneled in less than half of there games, with the greatest representation being tunneled in less than a quarter of their games.
So if a player "on average" experiences tunneling in ~1-2 games out of 5, how big of an impact is it really having?
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699786#Comment_3699786
"Oh boy I just saw this guy get unhooked, that's not tunneling though, he should've just gotten away"
That's a very unfair assessment of what was a reasonable point.
At what point does it stop being tunneling if hooking the same survivor twice or should survivors just be 100% safe until someone, or even everyone, else gets hooked?
Frankly both of those scenarios seem kinda ridiculous and highly exploitable.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699782#Comment_3699782
How long should the killer intentionally avoid the last unhooked survivor without finding any others before it ceases to be tunneling?
I mean I tend to do so when it feels unfair, but there is a point where the killer cannot afford to keep fruitlessly running around pretending they don't see the crying injured survivor that's right in front of them.
Ultimately survivors can't be protected against their own mistakes, even when it's just 'dumb luck' of running into the killer by accident.
This is the problem of the broad buzz phrase "they need to fix tunneling." I'm yet to see any suggestion that would "fix tunneling" that isn't just an exploitable safety net.
Also I should say that I don't really see a problem to fix with respect to a killer choosing whom to chase and survivors being under the threat of potential early elimination.
-
@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699389#Comment_3699389
Random Chance, that's what makes it different
Add a broad enough definition of tunneling to random chance and you could potentially see it a lot more.
I think there is a lot of assumption playing into it too. If a player goes down then they must have been tunneled, if I don't interact with the killer much it means they are tunneling, a poor post game score is often a way players jump to a tunneling conclusion regardless of gameplay.
There are a lot of secondary concepts that likely inflate the perception of tunneling.
-
@ScottJund said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QAW86SLEQ3D8/by-time.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/A3M7HPKGQ9Y1/jimmosio.png
A few results for you guys so far. It seems tunneling is pretty uniform in every region (Except Asia, except the N value was only 38 so its pretty inaccurate). Time of day also slightly influences rates, and people feel as if they are tunneled more often if they play very late at night and early morning.
The funny thing about these graphs so far is they show that "tunneling" or at least, the perception that one has been "tunneled", isn't the common issue that players seem to lament it as.
In fact it's prevalent in less than half the games played across time frame and region. Looks like roughly 70-80% of respondents say it happens less than 40% of the time.
Also you have an inflated low end of ordinal categories, median might be a better center line measure over mean in this case as the over representation of the low end likely over weights the average.
That said the question is of very limited scope and the categories, while expressed as percentages, are qualitative in nature meaning that its a grain of salt all round in terms of the robustness of the data itself. The categories could just as easily been broken down into never, rarely, sometimes, frequently and always and still display the same kind of resolution.
Its a qualitative measure on an ill defined and subjective topic so make of it what you will.
For greater resolution maybe the question should define the condition.
i.e
- How often are you hooked again after being unhooked?
- How often do you remain in a single chase with the killer, even after being un-hooked?
- How often do you interact with the killer from game start?
- How often do you safe unhook/get safe unhooked?
- How often do you body block with BT?
-
I always though some form of trip mechanic if chaining multiple fast vaults or even just noise spamming would be thematically appropriate for the horror movie setting.
-
no but I have occasionally shook my head at a cocky survivor who did something silly and went down for it.
-
Careful you'll end up getting lightborn nerfed at this rate.
Its a great perk in of itself, I get so much free stalk as Myers from players trying to blind me.
All you have to do is pretend to try and dodge it and they just keep on trying till bam tombstone.
Lightborn isn't the only way to build around flashbang play. Make a slug build Third seal, septic touch, knockout and a gen regression or chase perk of choice.
-
My love of playing scratched mirror Myers aside.
Personally I like the fact that you have to build for things or potentially forgo the advantages.
I don't want a bunch of built in indicators feeding me information, it really does undermine some aspects of the game as survivor.
The fear of the unknown and the potential to be caught off guard are core elements of survivor play, I think the more that gets watered down the less interesting the experience.
-
@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698296#Comment_3698296
This. Being looped around a car is the most boring thing in the game. Especially since survivors slide off of the environment like butter but as killer everything is instead made out of glue. If I can't path perfectly around it, I can be stuck there for way too long. It's so dull. Especially on maps with wonky collision like Nostromo, or any map with those awful bushes like Garden of Joy. It's even worse on certain tiles, like the Swamp's awful logs with vault points.
On another note, I dislike the UI's presentation of injured survivors. It just doesn't fit with the rest of the dark and gritty aesthetic. It's a cheery bright red with a white strike across it. I'd prefer if it was instead dark red with a black strike, maybe with droplets of blood slowly spattering around it.
I also really hate BHVR's new favorite idea: slapping the Resident Evil yellow tape on every vault in the game. It looks ugly and unfitting on most maps, and most of the vaults it marks are already obvious and don't need the extra signposting.
Yeah the UI, the new UI with portraits just lost something. The old stripped down bare bones UI was unobtrusive and great.
Also the portraits just, no disrespect to the artists, but… well maybe a lil disrespect, some are just terrible.
Pinhead looks like Kryten from Red Dwarf.
-
@radiantHero23 said:
I don't want to be rude here, but some people think too highly of themselves …
Streamers are players of this game just like the rest of us.
Yep they belong to a very exclusive club of people known as anyone with a camera.
I think trying to monetize your pastime as a gaming streamer probably kills the joy quicker than anything else could.
-
Myers in all his forms.
You don't always know what kind of Myers it is till he pops his power and then bam the slaying starts. Wish I played against him as often as I play him.
I enjoyed facing AFK pig when it was a thing. My head popped once. We escaped as a team once, 99 all gens got 3 traps off and then after popping the gens in rapid succession the last player hatched out.
-
Enough of RE already its a franchise on the slide.
I'd rather see a unique classic noir Femme Fatale type killer than Lady D rehashed.
I don't even get the thirst trap surrounding her, the model isn't all that appealing, but I guess the drooling masses have spoken.