kit_mason
kit_mason
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It's not a bug at all - with Backwater Swamp being so ridiculously large and so much being placed on the edge of the map, every killer object, from Plague Fountains to Singularity EMPs tend to spawn a mile away from anything useful. The best way to address it would be to make Backwater Swamp smaller, like they did with Decimated Borgo.
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@Zeidoktor said:
Hex: Two Can Play is a Chucky perk which has a unique trait, or at least so I've heard but not confirmed first hand: Even after it's been cleansed, it can re-light if you once again meet the activation condition of being stunned/blinded so many times.
Whether it actually has this trait or not isn't strictly relevant to what I'm about to suggest; it's mostly to show what gave me the thought: Could any existing totems benefit from such a mechanic?
The idea I have is that, in the event a Hex is cleansed, it could be reactivated if the right conditions are met and/or after a set cooldown, provides there's still a dull totem for it to go to.
I mostly had this in mind for the token totems, so I'll use that as an example. You're using Devour Hope or Huntress's Lullaby, get a few tokens on it, but it gets cleansed. After it's cleansed the next time it would gain a token (A hook for Lullaby, a rescue for Devour) a dull totem in the map relights with the Hex, but at zero tokens (similar to OG Hex: Undying). You still gotta build it up again, but you're not left with an empty perk slot of it's taken out at the start.
Other totems, like Blood Favor or Crowd Control, might have a cool down before relighting, probably a couple minutes or so to give some breathing room to survivors that got the totem. This would not apply some, like Plaything, NOED, or Haunted Ground, whose triggers aren't repeatable (hooking survivors the first time, entering Endgame, or being designed to be broken).
It offers Hexes more longevity, (hopefully) isn't too oppressive, still encourages use of things like Undying (which would keep/reactivate the Hex immediately) without requiring them, and gives Pentimento something to pair with besides Plaything.
Does this seem like a viable idea?
Whilst it's an interesting thought, I have concerns over the increasing strength of Pentimento. If you cannot truly cleanse the totem without it eventually returning, and the killer brings pentimento, they benefit from both perks at once.
Penti is already very strong, I worry that making this concept more common would further it's strength.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585648#Comment_3585648
It isn't dark maps with immersed survivors that's the problem. It's dark maps, which are half of the maps, that's the problem. It's critical to be able to identify good spots to place pods and quickly find survivors after switching to a pod. When the map is dark, this becomes x3 harder to do.
"I'm going to ignore specualtive statements on a world where Singularity's pick rate cuts by more than half of what it is now, because fundamentally the reason why Twins is unpopular is far more deeply rooted in their playstyle and bugs than Singularity is. They have entirely different issues and those issues are addressed in entirely different ways."
Firstly, we don't know Singularity's current play rate. It has already been proven that Nightlight's stats significantly differ from the actual stats. He could already be at Twins play rate. We will have to wait until BHVR releases stats again to know for certain. You also seem to be forgeting that with every new killer released and reworked, the play rates of all other killers drop as people change mains. Singularity is a new a killer that hasn't gone through this process yet and will drop in play rates as more killers are released.
"I thoroughly think EMPs are in a fine state outside of chase. Making them only cleanse yourself would make doubling gens when one survivor is Slipstreamed entirely unsolvable, one person has to drop the gen or both survivors are now Slipstreamed, with a very out-of-the-way solution of two different EMPs. I think any further changes to EMPs, if deemed necessary, should solely focus on their use in chase. As for reworks (that I can comment on, sorry Doctor and Cannibal):"
Slipstream spreading easier isn't a problem. It's what Singularity needs. Currently, Slipstream can be removed at a much faster rate than it can be applied. As I've already said, Plague's Infection spreads much easier than Slipstream and already infects multiple survivors working on the same gen.
"Nightmare is a non-point. Sure, the rework may have functioned short-term, but as we see it now, it didn't pan out well. Freddy is regarded as a bottom-3 killer, for good reason that you yourself identified."
Freddy was popular for years. The rework success wasn't "short-term". As I've said, it wasn't the rework that was unsuccessful. It was the nerfs afterwards that caused his current state. I also don't really blame BHVR since that the rework was done in the very early stage of the game when BHVR had limited experience designing and balancing the game. If they reworked him again today, it would be very different.
"In a similar vein, Trickster currently is at risk of ending up going the same way, given his PTB changes are widely regarded as making him too strong, especially with use of Death Throes Compilation."
He won't be any worse than he is already.
I think you are completely missing the reason for why certain killers may be weaker after their rework. The killers that became weaker after their rework were the ones that were completely unfun to play against. From that list, the only 2 killers that have supposedly gotten weaker were Skull Merchant and Legion. Both of these killers were extremely unfun to play against before their rework. Singularity doesn't fall into this category.
In the interest of avoiding making longer and longer response essays, I'm going to only focus on major issues I have.
Currently, Slipstream can be removed at a much faster rate than it can be applied.
This is untrue unless you're playing on a map with very high levels of sight line blocking like Hawkins or RPD (which is an issue with any LoS-requiring killer, like Huntress, Deathslinger, or even arguably killers like Billy). Reapplying Slipstream is as quick, if not quicker than removing it, and that's ignoring that if the survivor you're chasing is the one removing it then they are slowed, often causing them to take a hit.
[Freddy's] rework success wasn't "short-term". As I've said, it wasn't the rework that was unsuccessful. It was the nerfs afterwards that caused his current state.
It, by the very definition of the term, was only successful short-term. A successful rework would not have necessitated the nerfs that have placed him in the sorry state he is in now.
The killers that became weaker after their rework were the ones that were completely unfun to play against.
You missed the word "healthier" in my post. Many of the killers, whilst stronger, are not in a healthier place than they were - especially in cases like Sadako and the proposed Trickster changes (i.e. some of the most recent reworks we've had). Given Singularity's strength is fine - B is average, after all - the issue is health, which as I have now said what seems to be an endless number of times, are addressed with QoL changes, not reworks.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584744#Comment_3584744
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584783#Comment_3584783
I agree that survivors can remove Slipstream too fast due to the AOE Slipstream removal. The time it takes to Sliptream 3-4 survivors is high, but survivors can quickly stand together and remove it all once. It's far too efficient. This is the main thing holding Singularity back. As I mentioned in my post, only the survivor using the EMP should have their Slipstream removed. Slipstream is very similar to Plague infection and should be treated similarly.
As a PC player, I personally don't find it hard to apply Sliptream and the other issues with him are minor. The reason I think auto targeting is necessary for console players is that it's necessary to quickly aim pods in precise spots then quickly switch to the pod to apply Slipstream. The camera is often out of the place, so I usually quickly spin my camera and let the auto targeting find the survivor for me. This strategy seem too difficult to execute on console. Another reason is that the map is too dark. Nvidia Filters is 100% necessary to play this killer. I tried playing without Filters and it was x3 harder due to the dark map.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585002#Comment_3585002
Singularity's play rate will fall further with time. He's still the 2nd newest killer, which is why he's being played. Due to the higher skill floor compared to Artist and fact it's hard to play him on console, his play rate will definitely fall below Arist and likely to Twins level of unpopularity, which is a big problem since no one plays Twins due her clunkiness and terrible design. Singularity having the same play rate as Twins indicates that people think Singularity is as bad to play as Twins, which is extremely bad.
Otz placed Singularity in B+ tier, but he rates killers based on their average strength, which includes strong addons. Without strong addons, Otz probably would have placed him in C tier. Imo, with strong addons Singularity is A or S tier. Without strong addons, he's C tier.
Making EMPs only remove 1 Slipstream will improve his overall strength, which also improves his 3 gen, but I don't think it's enough to make the 3 gening good. As long as EMPs AOE disable pods, his 3 gen will be mediocre since he still can't defend gens well without tping. To 3 gen effectively, a killer must be able to either secure a down extremely fast or defend multiple gens at once, which Singularity cannot do. You need to compare Slipstream with Plague infection, which has a stronger effect and is easier to spread. Even though Plague has survivors permanently injured, she is mediocre at 3 gening.
As for why Singularity is hard to play, it's a combination of taking too long to apply Slipstream and survivors removing it too fast. I mostly apply Slipstream when I am in chase with them, so I apply Slipstream at a rate of 1 survivor per chase, but hooking the survivor removes the Slipstream. This makes it hard to spread Slipstream. On the other hand, survivors can remove Slipstream very fast due to the EMP abundancy and fact that 1 EMP can remove multiple Slipstreams. The only way to make Singularity spread Slipstream easier is reduce the effectivenes of EMPs on his pods, which cannot be done due to 3 gen problems. This means that it's instead necessary to reduce the ability of survivors to remove Slipstream.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585036#Comment_3585036
List of full power reworks (when there was a massive change to their power):
- Doctor
- Cannibal
- Legion
- Nightmare
- Clown
- Twins
- Trickster
- Skull Merchant
- Onyro
Asides from Twins, every killer on this list was buffed from their rework. Asides from Skull Merchant and maybe Trickster, every killer on this list was reworked because they were considered terrible killers that no one wanted to play.
Nightmare's rework was a success. He was popular in the past and was considered A tier. What killed him off was the nerfs to slowdown in general. People used to run the Forever Freddy build on him. His addons got nerfed severely and all of the slowdown perks he used to run was nerfed (Thana and Ruin). He's also a very old killer and his power has become outdated as much stronger killers have been released.
I'm going to ignore specualtive statements on a world where Singularity's pick rate cuts by more than half of what it is now, because fundamentally the reason why Twins is unpopular is far more deeply rooted in their playstyle and bugs than Singularity is. They have entirely different issues and those issues are addressed in entirely different ways.
Otz's view of Singularity as B+ is fair, and I think that with Soma/Denied Requisition he does enter A tier, and without those addons he probably drops down to B, I think C tier is a little harsh. But again, this is speculation - specifically speculation on the opinions of a man I am not, so it's not really worth continuing to discuss.
I thoroughly think EMPs are in a fine state outside of chase. Making them only cleanse yourself would make doubling gens when one survivor is Slipstreamed entirely unsolvable, one person has to drop the gen or both survivors are now Slipstreamed, with a very out-of-the-way solution of two different EMPs. I think any further changes to EMPs, if deemed necessary, should solely focus on their use in chase. As for reworks (that I can comment on, sorry Doctor and Cannibal):
Nightmare is a non-point. Sure, the rework may have functioned short-term, but as we see it now, it didn't pan out well. Freddy is regarded as a bottom-3 killer, for good reason that you yourself identified. In a similar vein, Trickster currently is at risk of ending up going the same way, given his PTB changes are widely regarded as making him too strong, especially with use of Death Throes Compilation.
Skull Merchant is in an objectively weaker position thanks to the removal of 3-Gen Merchant so arguing that she was buffed is blatantly untrue, even if she still is strong. Legion had to be reworked twice and is weaker than their release iteration, albeit their second rework did seem to get their power and strength levels about right.
Sadako is stronger than before but failed to address that her best playstyle is unfun to play against and uninteractive to play as - you toss on Iridescent Video Tape and have a notably easy time winning, as evidenced by her kill rate placing her as the second strongest killer in the game, only beaten by Skull Merchant.
Twins' rework is still in early stages, so we can't possibly speculate on what it will do to them as a killer.
So fundamentally, reworks don't always put the killer in a better spot - often, they miss the mark on putting the killer in a healthier and more balanced state simultaneously. The only reworks that seemed to work out fully in this regard were Skull Merchant, Clown, Legion and potentially Doctor and Bubba. And I'm not particularly interested in a 50/50 shot that my killer survives the rework it recieves.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585002#Comment_3585002
The tiniest leaf or other obstacle preventing shots from landing needs to be addressed, as does all the jank pod placements that get denied. This is universal no matter the platform he's played on.
To speak to the fun with him using a controller on console, there a few issues that drive up the frustration.
The camera turning movement feels slow and unnatural, even at max sensitivity. Add in the dead zones in the sticks & input delay and you often just cannot react fast enough to land anything with him. This is also not considering the unstable frame rates and lag spikes that commonly prevail on the consoles, particularly the older machines.
Current Trickster is the only killer I regard as completely unplayable on console, and he is being changed next big update. But Singularity is really really trying to join that list.
I hugely agree with your opinion on shot LoS and how easy it is to interupt, as well as pod placement logic. And it's welcoming to get your perspective on playing Hux on console- hopefully BHVR take notice and tune the experience to feel much better to use.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
@Huxy @just_one_player @kit_mason @TetroXyD
Disable Nvidia Filters and any other third party program that increases brightness. Don't use Soma Family Photo and Denied Requisition Form. Play on a dark map. Then report back to me how hard this killer is.
Okay?
I'll give you that dark maps with immersed survivors is a problem worth discussing, but that's not specific to Hux in any regard, and is therefore irrelevant to our discussion entirely. And my go-to addons are Live Wires and Kid's Ball Glove - Hux remains to be fun and usable, with its main issues continuing to be fixable through QoL changes, rather than a full rework.
This killer isn't for everyone, and large-scale reworks torch the playerbase it already has in the hopes of fostering a new, entirely different one. Sometimes that's healthy for the game, like with Skull Merchant. But I don't think your proposed changes would put Hux in a healthier position- if anything, it'd validate playstyles that make it less healthy for the game on the whole.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584170#Comment_3584170
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584173#Comment_3584173
There's hard. Then there's too hard. There's obviously a problem if Otz, who has 11k hours and mastered most killers, can only average 3-4 wins on this killer. This killer will definitely get reworked in the future due to the low play rate, as most killers with a low pick have. Having a killer that virtually no one plays is a waste.
I'm not even bad with this killer. If you run Denied Requistion Form and Soma Family Photo, this killer is actually ez mode and 3-4ks most matches. Without these 2 addons though, he's very difficult.
This killer will definitely get reworked in the future due to the low play rate, as most killers with a low pick have.
Of the bottom 10 killers by Pick Rate in DBD currently, one has an announced rework: Twins, who is being reworked to address the fact that their playstyle is unfun to play as and against.
In contrast, Trickster is currently seeing significant PTB buffs whilst keeping his core gameplay loop the same, and Nightmare was reworked without improvements in Pick Rate, and hasn't been reworked again since 3.1.0, over four years ago.
The assertion that unplayed killers are often reworked is blatantly untrue, and the implication that these reworks function to benefit the killer is equally untrue.
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Singularity has quickly become one of the least played killers, which is bad considering he's the 2nd newest killer. On Nightlight, he's 5th least played killer. Though his real pick rate is probably lower since Nightlight mainly uses stats from PC players. Without any change, Singularity will probably reach Twins levels of obsecurity in the future.
Within the context of a game with nearly 3 dozen killers, fundamentally they will have different skill floors and therefore different pick rates. Singularity has one of the highest skill floors we've seen so far, leading to an understandably low pick rate. And that's fine. Hux sits in the same place as the Artist - niche but ultimately fine, even if he could do with some QoL changes, which I will get into on your other points.
The reason no one plays Singularity is that he's too hard. Otz, a player with 11k hours, is currently trying to win streak on him and only averages 3-4 wins before losing, which is extremely low compared to his other killers. This killer is also impossible to play on console due to the need to quickly aim pods. The main issue with Singularity is that it's hard to apply Slipstream while it's too easy for survivors to remove it.
Last I heard him mention it, Otz placed Singularity in B or A tier - by his own admission, Singularity is in a fine spot strength-wise. As for Hux's worst issues, I'd argue they lie in issues with applying Slipstream, not survivor ease of removing it.
Firstly, EMPs should only remove Slipstream on the survivor using it. Given how easy it is to acquire EMPs, it shouldn't be able to mass remove Slipstream. Slipstream is similar to Plague Infection, which is much harder for survivors to remove while also having a stronger effect.
Absolutely not. Under no circumstances should EMPs be made weaker than they already are, with maybe the exception of weakening their removal in chase. Only being able to remove slipstream from yourself makes two survivors working on a gen together entirely unable to cleanse slipstream unless they both get up, visit different 3D Printers, and EMP seperately. I don't need to point out how much stronger this would make 3-gen Singularity, a playstyle I would very much like to stay garbage on my main.
Secondly, when switching to a pod, the camera should automatically face the nearest survivor. This is the only way to make Singularity playable on console. Finally, they need to make it possible to place pods on all surfaces. There are too many situations where you try to place a pod on a perfectly flat surface and it doesn't work.
Whilst I can't comment on changes to Hux that make him more feasible on console as a M&K player, I agree Pods need significant QoL work - many windows cannot be shot through for placing pods, their placement is awkward at the best of times (and yes, your view that they should place more consistently on surfaces is correct), and LoS is considered very strangely for Slipstream application.
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It's not a matter of SWF being too strong its a matter of having to juggle SoloQ and SWF and therefore having to drag killers down so Solos have a chance. Improve the ability for Solos to communicate (ideally without just giving the game a voice chat, that won't fix the problem in any region with players that speak more than one language), and then adjust killer strength to match the new equilibrium.
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SWF could permanently avoid four killers with this system - so Blight, Nurse, Spirit and a personal pick, furthering how oppressive those killers are as the only matches they'll ever get is SoloQ.
Even were you to consolidate the entire SWF into a single pick, Blight would still be made stronger under this system, for the same reason.
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The only difference between a 99d gate and an open one, realistically, is a 4 minute timer and the ability to apply Blood Warden. Resetting gate on let go would make Remember Me Trapper genuinely unbeatable outside of a SWF and often not even then - 44 second trapped gate that gives a noise notification when the trap is disarmed and is reset when the trapper comes to reset the trap?
And in a world with gate regression solos would do what they do now - just open and leave, and SWFs have a myriad of options - have someone wait by the gate to top it back up, flat out open and check for blood warden with a Distortion user, but these are things that already happen also.
I'd be interested to know how many of your endgames last longer than say, five minutes, if we allow for a survivor to run to and 99 a gate, and how many of those very long endgames make any meaningful positive change for the killer compared to if the survivors had just left.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566065#Comment_3566065
Kinda seems unfair when only the Killer sees an opponent's prestige in the pre-game lobby. Maybe they could also let Survivors see the Killers Prestige level (but not the Killer) while in the lobby too?
The solution BHVR are looking for is likely not "everyone can lobby shop".
Hiding prestiges in pre-game lobby for everyone is fine. Post-lobby prestiges still show.
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@Verconissp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566685#Comment_3566685
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566695#Comment_3566695
Cause i like to see What they got said survivor Up to?
Is it morally wrong wanting to know what they got their prestiege to on said Survivor now?
Then wait until the endgame lobby. It makes no difference if you see it at the start or end of the ten-minute period you spend playing the match out if you just want to see what prestige they got that survivor to.
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Why do you need to see them? They don't mean anything, just a marker of someone's commitment to a singular survivor.
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Hux main here - he's not in the kind of spot that justifies needing a buff.
But I especially take issue with changes to EMPs - making EMPs too weak risk turning Singularity into a pre-rework Skull Merchant, where the ability to hold a 3 gen is so potent that it necessitates reworking the killer entirely. As it stands, EMPs are destroyed on use, and if you quickly place a biopod, enter it, and reapply Slipstream, the effect that EMP had is negligible at best.
His pick rate has little to do with his capability to win as much as it has to do with his relatively high skill floor and amount of effort required to get value out of his kit, both of which I'm entirely fine with as someone who feels very rewarded for learning to play a killer like that.
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Rebalancing every loop in the game to play around a stamina bar would be a gigantic undertaking that is ultimately not worth the effort.
Plus, killers already have a mechanic to further the speed disparity between them and the survivor - Bloodlust. A stamina bar on top of this is complete overkill.
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@Chaogod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558487#Comment_3558487
Based on WHAT? Stats from nearly a year ago? Or the stat websites that grasp at Straws?
Apoligies if this double posts, sometimes clicking Post Comment sends my posts to a void? Regardless:
The implication that the kill rate has dropped more than 10% in a year where, on the whole, killers became more potent (Chess Merchant, Sadako's Rework, removal of Lightburning, nerfs to Dead Hard, etc etc) is at best unrealistic.
If I had to guess, I'd say the kill rate is still hovering around the 60% figure that it was in Sep. 2022.
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@Chaogod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558487#Comment_3558487
Based on WHAT? Stats from nearly a year ago? Or the stat websites that grasp at Straws?
The implication that in one year the average kill rate statistic can drop over 10% especially given that, on the whole, Killers became more potent in 2023 (Chess Merchant, the Sadako Rework, nerfs to Dead Hard, removal of Lightburning, etc etc), is at best unrealistic.
Realistically, the Kill Rate is probably exactly where it was a year ago - hovering the 60% figure. If your experiences are different, I'd be interested to know which killers you play.
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The first aspect of genrush means 'skill dif git gud' I agree with, this is meant to help weaker Killers (read players) without impacting more effective Killer's (read player's) matches.
Weaker players should go against weaker players, that's the way in which they're helped - the fact that this doesn't always happen is evidence the MMR system is broken and needs fixing, rather than trying to rebalance the game around said broken system.
The counterplay is Plot Twist - I mean if you want to say the counterplay to Corrupt is Plot Twist+No Mither instead of realizing how counter-productive that is, then sure, we can say it counters everything. The thing with Plot Twist is you have to pick yourself up eventually, and on the ground you provide no value to your team.
Playing a 3* man endgame without NOED is easier than playing a 4 man endgame with NOED, and the second another survivor goes down the Plot Twist player can pick themselves back up at full health and with a speed boost, partially nulifying the benefit of downing that survivor at all. The value provided by putting yourself on the ground is denying the NOED.
Lockdown Killers guarding the totem - I don't think you've read the post. The basekit NOED totem remains lit, but inactive if anyone is in the dying state, on hook, and fully snuffs itself out if someone dies. How do you propose a Killer snowballs 4 slugs/hooks in endgame from only a single exposed down that they weren't capable of doing previously?
You yourself were suggesting this addition to the game as a means of giving the Killer an easier time in games that were difficult. If you now state that it's not capable of giving the killer a genuine chance I think that puts us back at square 1 to the necessity of adding a limited-scope basekit NOED, no? It's either useful or it isn't, you can't have it both ways.
But beyond this, you know what the strategy to snowball here would be? To abuse altruism. The second an unhook happens, the criteria of nobody being dying, hooked or dead is met and every survivor is exposed again - meaning the unhooker is now instadownable, monstrously dissuading the survivors from playing the endgame for a 4 man escape instead of just letting the killer have their free 1k.
Also you can still soak a hook on someone to force the aura reveal portion for an easy search if you don't want to pre-cleanse. Now if you are saying hook the Survivor on the NOED totem, that's fair, I would recommend swapping totem spots in that case ala Pyramid Head Cages being camped get swapped spots. Maybe only swap the totem location for basekit NOED, and allow it to Pentimento styled replace an already broken totem. Another alternative would be basekit NOED must spawn in 2 totems, and either being cleansed (or 4 pre-cleansed) destroys the totem.
I've been an advocate for 2-totem NOED for as long as I've been playing the game, but I don't think it would encourage survivors to play endgames altruistically, something I'll cover in more depth on your next point.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - At what point is the opposition pursuing their objective 'punishing' players for pursuing theirs? Anti-tunnel does this exact thing, but we consider it healthy for the game because it achieves the goal of promoting spreading the pressure instead of focus firing. This basekit NOED does a similar concept, where spreading pressure is rewarded more so than focus fire.
Tunnelling isn't particularly comparable because it is the optimal strategy in any given game. Removing someone from the match applies permanent, uncounterable pressure - anti-tunneling exists to mitigate this both in the name of balance and fun - furthering the engagement of the tunneled survivor past "you went down straight off the unhook, enjoy spending the next minute doing nothing".
Basekit NOED doesn't achieve this - in fact, it achieves the opposite. The optimal strategy under basekit NOED would be to simply leave- sacrifice whoever takes the chase if they cant run him for long enough to get themselves out and accepting that a 4 man out is simply too time-consuming to bother with anymore, especially given other endgame perks still function as normal, and are boosted by these changes - even just one instadown makes Blood Warden stronger, as a singular example.
Your alternative to picking a lamb for the slaughter is to bring a plot twist user, and neither of those are engaging imo (especially for the lamb or the plot twister) - if anything, they're monstrously unfun for the survivors and a hollow free kill for killers - the game giving you a 1k out of pity can't feel that great, I'd imagine.
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Many people complain about the gens going to fast, so they feel like they have to tunnel someone out, or gen speeds need to be adjusted solo or coop
If you need to tunnel someone out, you need to tunnel someone out. Do what is necessary to win the game, the survivor will go next regardless of how badly you have hurt their feelings.
Now for a basekit NOED to not just be utter bull schenanigans, it would need to hurt genrushers, but not impact normal matches.
"Genrushing" is entirely an issue of the killer being incapable of properly managing pressure, which is a failing of the killer, not an admonition of the survivors.
So with that, what do we need... ...if 1 Survivor is downed/on hook/dead, the basekit version will not be active, and death will disable the totem altogether like Ruin. The totem would still be active, but the perk effects would not be.
The counterplay here, then, would be Plot Twist - something a SWF can guarantee that a team of solos cannot, which partially mitigates the intended benefits, no? A SWF is more likely to spread out their hooks to prevent anyone from dying whereas Solos are rarely that altruistic.
Now assuming someone says something along the lines of "I'm just a normal Survivor player, I shouldn't be punished for a Killer being bad at the game", then I agree, you can cleanse all 5 totems if you fear a basekit NOED. If Survivors 'HAVE' to pre-cleanse all the totems, that takes 70s on the totems, and lets underestimate 20s to search and walk over to reach all 5. That gives the weaker Killers who need extra time essentially a 6th gen.
So let's make this clear: If you're doing well in the game you need to entirely pause your last generator at 99 to cleanse five dulls so that the killer has a chance to bring back a game that they have already deservedly lost by mismanaging pressure. And that's to say nothing of... just off the top of my head lockdown killers guarding a free fifth perk by way of keeping one difficult-to-cleanse totem up the entire match instead of playing the game normally.
It also says nothing of how this would change survivor behaviour - if youre the only one on death hook the optimal play would now be to force a tunnel to guarantee the 3 out, a feat that is likely easier than a five-dull cleanse extending the game out even further.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - something that the discussions surrounding MFT would seem to show that the playerbase wholeheartedly agrees with.
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I fail to see why the game should punish you for playing well? Isn't the point of the MMR system to make your games harder as you get better, by pitting you against better members of the other side?
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@kaedediablo said:
They are so slow with the rework or several killers, its doesnt make sense
...what rework?
Increasing the speed survivors move even by a slight amount would mean redoing every tile, pallet, connected loop, etc in the game to ensure they haven't created infinites, which is why they don't do it and perks that grant Haste have conditions (even if some of those conditions are harder to meet than others).
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Whichever side got the better players. The MMR system is imperfect to say the least and pairing very experienced members of one side with inexperienced members of the other happens very often, in my experience.
In a balanced game it depends on the MMR, but I broadly agree with the vibes I've seen others give - Killer-sided at the low end of skill, survivor-sided at the high end of skill, with the middle being fairly balanced and Blight & Nurse being able to tip the scales far further towards killer victory than anyone else ever could.
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Since everybody including many former DBD content creaters are now playing TCM
Because it's a new release of a good game in the same genre. Few are playing instead of DBD, most are playing alongside - which is healthy for both titles, as competition always is.
Way to much fog. I know, Horror game and so, but i personally and probably most others wont get scared by that game anyway, besides beeing in an intense chase.
I actually have been arguing that the fog is entirely irrelevant to gameplay. Lots of players play with very high brightness making the offerings to thicken or weaken the fog worthless at worst and 100% not purple rarity offerings at best.
Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.
To my knowledge the only major map reworks we got were RCPD (which if you werent playing 2 years ago you wouldn't have experienced regardless), Red Forest getting a visual overhaul and minor changes to Coldwind Farm. In my experience most tiles are still as they were then and you can run them the same.
Beside massive survivor nerfs (less distance after hit, maps favour clearly killer, longer healing time, longer gen repair time) killer became by design even more oppresive. This might be a bit early to judge, but some new killers like the alien can do everything at once. Teleport, ignoring pallets/windows, beeing stealthy and still 115%? Seriously who came up with that?
The Xenomorph's power has a windup sound that you can use to avoid it, and that's if you choose to take no preventative action whatsoever . They're not that stealthy thanks to Flame Turrets basically having their own unremovable heartbeat, and their power can be entirely mitigated by proper Flame Turret placement, making them a basic 115 M1 killer with no power. The killer is strong, yes, but ultimately their power is balanced if survivors play the game properly.
Something is wrong with fast vaults. Is this a bug or intentional?
It's a bug that was fixed on the latest PTB, so it'll be fixed in the next few weeks.
Overall, it feels like the devs are aiming for a 70% killrate for whatever reason. Stats show that 60% rate is already reality and those were apparently before some majore survivor nerfs. Why?
60% seems to be BHVR's aim, and our best look at statistics show that most killers fall within the 50-60% range, showing the necessity of Survivor nerfs. I also saw your arguments about the true kill rate being artificially heightened thanks to Hatch, etc and I'd like to propose the counter also being true - survivors give up. A lot. They either DC and are replaced by bots that are programmed to miss skill checks so they end up sandbagging you or they let go on hook and leave you an entire player down, which in DBD often dooms the rest of the team to oblivion.
These two factors would possibly balance out but as a survivor main I'd say the kill rates might actually trend high if you discount games that are lost because your teammate didnt get their Deliverance or got grabbed on a gen or something like that.
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So lets make this abundantly clear: under basekit anticamp antitunnel and antislug a survivor that has been freshly unhooked could, without worry, hand a protection hit to their unhooker using basekit BT, get downed for a second protection hit to their unhooker, and the killer gets the engaging choice of picking if they wanna mess with the anti-tunnel measure or the anti-slug measure which makes those two hits less than worthless.
Getting tunneled/slugged sucks, I get it. But sometimes they're necessary and systems that prevent them will be utilised to their full potential, beyond their intent when being added.
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People from lots of regions in the world who don't always share a language (Europe being just one example) can't benefit from this feature at all without a language selector which would massively increase queue times for languages with relatively few native speakers (and would increase queue times still for everyone.)
Beyond that, balancing around comms (i.e. significant Killer buffs) makes playing without comms feel even worse than it already does. On top of that, people who opt-out are easy targets for toxicity, changing the game's expectations as a whole and making those who would opt-out swap roles or potentially quit the game entirely. Speaking of toxicity, in-comm toxicity would need to be managed which puts more pressure on the moderation team for the game.
Overall, whilst adding voice comms seems like a good idea, in practice it'd be hell on the game if you aren't an english speaker living in NA or a similar situation like that
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@Crowman said:
Xenomorph exits the control room tunnels very slowly when it's close to a hooked survivor. It's like you guys don't even play the killer before complaining about stuff already built into the their kit.
Which can be mitigated with the footsteps mechanic and still doesn't address the fact that Dredge's power disables camping in it's entirety.
But thanks for your input, regardless.
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Without flashlights survivors take a mix of medkits and toolboxes, rip through the gens as fast as possible (literally no reason to do anything other than a gen, a chase, or on occasion a totem) and leave.
Are there fewer avenues to toxicity? Sure. Are the games more fun? Absolutely not.
Survivors throwing the game by wasting time doing something fun (flashlight saves) might suck in the moment, but in the grand scheme of the game they'd be better off taking a commodius and speedrunning the match. Removing flashlights gives plenty of survivors a free hand to bring one in.
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@bornagain234 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3538855#Comment_3538855
Maybe they should develop the game in a way then so that things like this dont happen.
They will patch A B C and somehow, without touching anything X Y Z will break. Clowns perk will be adjusted, and somehow it breaks something for artist, or a map is affected. The entire game needs to be fixed.
just to be perfectly clear, your instruction to the devs is "just dont add bugs to the code". that's what you're telling them to do.
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@Zaydin said:
And if they get snuffed out the boonj is gone for good, just like Hex totems if they get cleansed.
Boons don't really need further nerfs? A person blessing a totem isn't doing a gen, snuffing a totem is a near-immediate action, and the boon usage dropping off a cliff (none in the top ten, as per BHVR's latest stat info) is a testament to their nerfs being effective.
They're fine. I'd be down with discussing buffing or adding effects to Shattered Hope given it's been next to useless even in boon metas, but that's not the topic of this thread.
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@Zaydin said:
No. If you didn't want to get lobby dodged you shouldn't have played so obsessively. Killers have a right to know that they are up against survivor mains who haven't touched grass in months.
The prestige rework was over a year ago. It's more than feasible that people who play this game a fair amount (read: not obsessively) have a p100 if they only play one character.
Additionally, survivors don't get to see the Killer's prestige. It's only fair that the killer doesn't get to see the survivors' prestiges, especially given it can enable not only lobby shopping, but tunneling and a whole host of other forms of toxicity.
As a bare minimum, players should be able to disable prestige visibility in the pre-game lobby, as Steam users can with their hour count. I'm glad to see the test run from the devs and hope the feedback on the change is positive, even as someone who doesn't have a P100 character.
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edit: post got hidden so i rewrote and ended up double posting it, see my other one two posts down.
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Some issues:
- Overall increased queue times by splitting the entire playerbase into two queues
- Casual lobbies turning into noobstomp galore (fewer skilled players populating these casual lobbies means skilled killers have a far easier time if they want a bot match with BP rewards)
- Ranked modes increasing player toxicity because individual games actually matter
- Sharp increases to unfun killer playstyles (how many people are gonna pick up chess merchant just so they can stomp games with 1hr timeouts? How much do you want to vs blight nurse spirit and all of them camp and tunnel with the most OP builds and addons they can get their hands on?)
- Compounding issues when it comes to bugs that are fixed slowly without killswitches (look at Merciless Storm's full gen regression bug as a prime example)
- Issues with SBMM as it exists in the game now would still transfer to any ranked SBMM system (you yourself recognise that there's no clear indication that games are matched on player skill and I agree, but I think ranked would be equally unbalanced)
- Nobody can agree on what said ranked mode rulesets should be. Sure, we could use competitive DBD as a jumping off point, but that comes with it's own set of issues (one version of each perk in your team but you're four soloqs so who's forced to switch? etc etc).
But most importantly, a ranked mode would, in my opinion, never come with ruleset changes, because it changes something fundamental about the relationship between the devs and the game. Banning Ada or Ace or Midwich or Garden of Joy or treating different killers with different levels of restrictions means stating that this game is fundamentally unbalanced. It means that the devs believe some killers or survivors recieve better treatment than others, a fact I'm sure they would dispute - they've gone on record to say that they're happy with the state of the game, and were they not, I see no reason why they wouldn't change it.
But you ask the playerbase and they'll bring a laundry list of issues with the game - Trapper is very weak, Blight is very strong. Ada and Ace are very quiet and the promised survivor noise equalisation hasn't arrived. And BHVR adding restrictions to these issues would come off as agreement - an acknowledgement these issues are, in fact, issues. But it would beg the question - why not just nerf them? Why would BHVR admit there's a problem but do nothing to fix it beyond switching the issue off in the Ranked gamemode?
TL;DR - not only do I think a ranked mode would be bad for the game, I don't think BHVR would ever implement it in a way that would make anyone happier.
I did lastly want to touch on one thing I read in your replies:
I have only been playing for a few months, and have over 5k hours.
5,000 hours is 208 days, a little under seven months. Did you mean to say you'd "only been playing for a few years" or do you just happen to leave the game open 24/7 and didn't account for that in your more active playtime? Just looking for some clarity, that's all.
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@Nikolaifly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532805#Comment_3532805
How are they OP??? Its your RUNNING then you can GO FAST over a vault it makes sense!? It takes skill to do them unless you just w key, and if your any good you can still get the hit???
Whilst I agree fast vaults should be, as the name describes, faster than a medium vault, the person you're replying to specified that in their bugfixed state the fast vaults were OP, which they were.
There's been two bugfixes to fast vaults that were both poor for the game. The first- before this newest chapter release, made fast vaults grant ridiculous speed and distance (and caused male survivors to vault further, for some reason.) The second- that came more recently, went too far the other direction, making fast vaults identical to medium, without fixing said "male survivors vault further" issue. The second is the one you made this thread about, the first is the one Orthane is describing as OP (rightfully).
What everyone wants is a middle ground, it would appear. Fast vaults as they were before either of these bugfixes were implemented.
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@CarbonaraCharlie said:
Hi BHVR,
I don’t think it should be nerfed to the ground, but I think distortion needs a slight nerf. I run a lot of aura reading perks as a killer and although I think it is fine for them to not work a lot of the time, 100% of the time is a bit overkill.
Here is what I would do to change it:
- Tokens don’t build up during chase anymore. Make it like stakeout where you have to be hiding within the killer’s terror radius to build tokens. (Either this or make it so it only builds stacks during chase so survivors can’t hide for the entire game)
Edit: I removed the second change because I decided the first one would suffice.
In its current state, tokens regenerate when you are playing survivor regularly. For a perk which counters all Aura perks, it shouldn’t be up for the entire game without actual effort on the survivor’s part.
this would make distortion even more useless against killers like Sadako, Wraith or Ghostface, who already are adept at denying stack buildup.
i think it would be fair to slow the stack gain in chase, but removing stack gain in chase entirely would make the perk even more enemy-dependent than it already is. because remember - if the killer has no aura reads, Distortion is a dead perk slot. it's not like Lightborn or Franklin's where you can take it adaptively, you take Distortion without knowing if the killer has aura reads in the game you're going into.
In the current killer meta, with perks like Lethal, No Way Out and BBQ still very prevalent, it makes sense to bring, but it's never a guarantee.
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@jamally093 said:
A side from camping tunneling is just annoying and overall boring. One gen went by ONE SINGLE GEN and all of a sudden that means let's tunnel one survivor. Okay I would get it if three gens went off back to back but one gen was done and all of a sudden that means let's tunnel. "Your fun is not my priority." I get it but still I don't see how you can find any fun in tunneling to me I find it just boring I'm seriously just trying to have a fun time playing the game since I still have hope the game is at least decent enough to enjoy.
Before you ask I have taken breaks from the game countless times.
Securing a kill early is the most surefire way to win a match - removing one survivor from the equation tips the scale so far in killer's favor that it spirals out of control.
That's the point - to win, and do so easily. It's not really more complicated than that.
If you don't find that playstyle fun, don't employ it. I avoid tunneling where possible and do just fine. But for people whose only priority is pumping out 3Ks or higher, tunneling is an obvious first play.
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@Nos37 said:
Or they could remove one of those windows and killers would actually have a reason to commit to chases in this main building.
make any change to this setup and it makes for a better main building
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Her only viable build prior to this buff was to slug and play for condemned, using Ring Drawing and Iri Tape.
Her update has been live for only a day and a bit, so people's strategies are still developing on both sides. At least wait to see if survivors take on board means to counterplay her new methods of gaining Condemned and if killer players find an engaging yet rewarding strategy to undertake on her before asking for reverts to a version of Sadako that requires an Iridescent addon to be functional.
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@Pink_Ronin said:
When?
She no longer belongs. She's like Superman, it would be better if she didn't exist.
Her power is too OP and had she been designed in the modern era it wouldn't be allowed.
Just make Spasmodic Breath basekit. Until a hit she's the Nurse we all know and [opinion], but after a hit she's a loopable 110 or 115 killer for X amount of time. Pallets remain useful, healing becomes a priority so you aren't looping a teleporting nurse whilst injured, and ultimately she has much clearer and more interesting counterplay.
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@Uxoxe said:
Solo-queue being crap, is why suiciding-on-hook is such a problem. Why not fix solo-queue instead of trying to punish survivors for leaving bad matches caused by solo-queue being crap?
People giving up at the first sight of difficulty is part of the problem and, for me, it's the most major reason why solo-queue is such a hassle at the moment.
I do agree that changes should be made to make solo-queue more bearable but because those changes are more wide-scale we should be dealing with parts of the problem whenever we can.
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@jordanjustice said:
Not to mention... if a teammate wants to kill themselves on hook... If they are unable to, there is a good chance they still won't help your team. The suicidal survivor is done with that match... why would they become an active member of the team after being denied their suicide? They will either do nothing, or just let the killer take them out again with chase. They wouldn't go hide in a locker... that would be wasting their time. They want out of that match and to get into another one as soon as possible. There is no work around for attitudes. Just accept that the match is no longer a real match after the suicide and have fun with it.
they're providing the illusion of four survivors being in the match, or they spend some of the killer's time going to get and re-hook them.
I'm aware they're not going to play along with the game. But they'll at least spend more of the killer's time providing an illusion of a 4th man.
@JdoHybrid428 said:
There's situations where you want to ######### on hook to give your remaining teammate hatch. That alone makes it to where they couldn't program it in a good way. They probably wouldn't disable self unhooks due to the few perks revolving around unhooking yourself and luck perks/offerings.
I feel like you could make it so if:
- you have deliverance, and it is active
- you have slippery meat, or a luck buff is in play
- one survivor is not on hook
You can either make unhook attempts, for the first two, or intentionally remove yourself from the match, in the last one. The amount of times that comes up is relatively few.
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@KingOfGhost said:
What i mean is if survivors don't like the map or the killer or anything they can die on the hook and end the game right there and then. But killers have to play the game. So what if killers have something similar like opening the exit gate at any time they want it? If they do so no perk they have that activated by end game collapse and survivors are rewarded with an additional 15k blood points. This way if killers don't want to play the game for any reason they can end it fast just like survivors can.
What is your thought on that?
They should be making it harder for survivors to remove themself from the game in a way that avoids a DC penalty, so no, killers shouldn't also get a thing that's unhealthy for the game when survivors have it.
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They'd just redown you and continue to slug you.
And giving endurance on that unbreakable quickly would turn the game into an anti-pickup meta. If they can't hook you you just win outright, so put your entire build into preventing hooks.
Slugging can be frustrating, but it's often a necessarily action to win games.
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Honestly? I don't even think she's that strong. Most of the games I play against her where every survivor plays the game out ends up in a win, the issue is how long (and how boring) the road to get there is - ultimately, playing an hour-long game with no chases for a single escape isn't worth the effort.
The solution is to rework her power to make it not boring - for either side. Figure out a way to make her more proactive. Frustratingly, the suggestions I had for her became subject to the Sadako -> Dredge phenomenon - making her drones act like cameras she can use to more proactively guard loops is just the power the team behind Singularity went for, locking her out of that playstyle.
I wish the team luck in whatever direction they aim to take SM, but I suspect the actual direction will be none at all, because her kill rates are likely where they want them to be.
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You left out the biggest one, imo? Which is "I got chased first and went down too fast so I'm gonna DC."
Addressing tunneling and addressing unfun killers, as well as the disparity between SWF and SoloQ (to help address bully squads) I understand, but eliminating the DC penalty will increase DCs in situations that you simply cannot address, which is one side getting mad that the other is playing the game.
To highlight this - when you say "I get body blocked by survivors all the time when I will chase an injured person and someone crouches down in front of me to block" that's just taking hits. It's an intended mechanic of the game and people are going to use it to spread out the pressure beyond just one person. There are even perks that reward/punish taking hits - look at Mettle of Man and Forced Penance.
And on the other side of things, "As a survivor I get body blocked by killers." this is also an intended mechanic of the game - they use it to deny you material like windows or pallets, and you have to play to the limits of what can be bodyblocked if killers are clearly looking to do that. Body blocking is something both sides can do to get an advantage, even if it often comes with a risk or a cost.
DCing will never be fully eliminated, and removing the DC penalty in a world without tunneling doesn't suddenly make it so people will just DC when the situation is maximally unfun. They'll DC the second the game goes the slightest way against them, like many do now with the penalty.
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The last good Realm BHVR has put out was Dead Dawg Saloon. Midwich, every iteration of RPD, Eyrie, Garden of Joy, Borgo, Toba Landing and the reworked Red Forest all have some quirk (usually relating to an overabundance or complete lack of clutter) that makes them awful for at least one side.
And secondly, their licensed maps focus too heavily on being faithful to the original and not enough on being an actually fun map to play on - but that's likely entirely out of their hands (gotta put out something the license holders like, after all), so who knows.
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@HarryRugby19 said:
Of course its stupid design. Like god pallets. Like BT at base, soon to be deliverance at base. They try to make it so easy for survivor but there are too many ignorant and entitled survivors out there that preach this nonsense.
Like god pallets.
expendable resource, break them and restart the chase.
Like BT at base,
added to the game to address that without BT tunneling fresh unhooks was monstrously easy, so every single survivor was required to bring it.
soon to be deliverance at base.
"deliverance at base" leaves out the most pertinent piece of information regarding the upcoming changes - they are only giving survivors self-unhook in the event that they are being face camped (or proxy camped for an extended period of time).
calling measures designed to minimise the amount of situations in which a killer can tunnel and camp "stupid design" in my opinion overlooks the reason why those changes were/are being implemented.
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@GoldenFord said:
I literally started playing today, I was playing with a Killer and I eliminated 3 of the survivors, and the fourth I ended up dropping, I had already taken 3 and that fourth I decided to let it win, however, after the end, one of those I killed complained to denounce me for leaving the survivor wins, is this mandatory? like, I'm the killer, I decide who lives and who dies, especially when there were toxic players in the game, and I decided to let the one who wasn't win. The question here is, is this prohibited? like, I only did it once without thinking, and I didn't want to lose my account early on for something I didn't know about.
Giving escapes to survivors isn't prohibited as far as I'm aware, and given I've spent the first week of this event playing around 8 or 10 hook games before letting some people escape so they can nab event rewards, I figure I'd have been banned for it if it were.
The person that got mad at you for it is just being toxic, pay them no mind.
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@zeemgeem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465311#Comment_3465311
downing two people and then watching as one rng's himself out of a losing state to then stand next to another hooked survivor with no risk whatsoever, turning an earned 2 hook into a forced 2 unhooked isnt camping, they can do this immediately and 2 inches in front of your face. if 4% was there to stop camping it wouldn't be available 2 seconds after being hooked.
i continue to misunderstand why you dont just check for otr and then wait out for the grab. if they've 4%'d (which will happen in a gigantic minority of games) in basement (even rarer) with another person right next to them (even rarer), then play around it. you have half of their team pressured minimum.
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@zeemgeem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462678#Comment_3462678
not the point. if they have off the record they can just sit there for an entire minute until you hit them or leave, and survivors exploiting this cheese will.
A minute is a full hook stage. You know if they have OTR because they won't make noise, and if you're already camping them then gen pressure is of no concern.