jesterkind
jesterkind
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I've been enjoying it, personally.
There are parts I'd change for next year, but I certainly hope the general shape of this event comes back. If a few things were tweaked to be less abusable and the time investment on the killer side became less of an active detriment, it'd be a perfectly good event.
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Occupy as many survivors at once as you can.
When you get a hook, try to be in a chase immediately afterwards. No matter how decent the survivors are, they have to eat a massive penalty to their overall gen efficiency when one's on a hook, one's in a chase, and one's peeling off for a save. You can apply this in other ways too; slugging when you suspect you can pressure someone else immediately, trying to ambush heals-in-progress if they're happening, using a currently hooked survivor as bait to draw someone out of position for an easier chase, and so on.
The last thing you want to do, if the survivors are all decent, is spend too much time on just one survivor. Whether that's committing to a chase too long, facecamping, or trying to tunnel them out if you don't immediately succeed. This just gives the other three survivors uninterrupted generator time for minimal return.
Craft a build that helps here, tailored to whatever you're struggling with. If it's the chase portion, bring chase perks. If it's finding survivors, info perks. Steer away from stacking tons of slowdown in your build, there's diminishing returns there. Two is the max I'd say, unless your whole build synergises with itself in some way- and making sure there's intent and synergy with your build overall is always a bonus regardless.
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@UnusedAccount said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573740#Comment_3573740
Take a long look at the perks people run with WoO.
For being a ''''newbie'''' perk, it sure doesn't go along with other newbie perks like Self-care, Spine Chill, Kindred or Urban Evasion.
I'm still not sure what the conclusion is supposed to be here?
WoO doesn't enable those perks or make them meta-tier, most of them either were before it joined them or would be without it, so that can't be the reason the perk is problematic.
WoO isn't even close to on par with those perks in terms of raw strength, so that can't be the thing we're discussing.
The synergy that it has with those perks is extant, sure, but it doesn't outstrip the fact that the perk doesn't really do much so it's not like it's a 'more than the sum of its parts' combo with any perk on that list...
It just seems like you're trying to claim Windows is a problematic perk, but I can't tell what your reasoning is meant to be. Everything relevant seems like it doesn't apply to this particular perk.
(Also, Kindred is not a newbie perk, it's a solo queue perk. No matter how skilled or knowledgeable you are, you will benefit a lot from Kindred in solo queue. Separate nitpick but I wanted to mention it.)
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@UnusedAccount said:
Reminder that WoO has gone up to 35% usage.
Also, these are the perks its combo most with.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YSYXWOPD24Q8/27-27-27-27noob-27-27-27-27-perk.png
I'm not sure I understand the implication of this post. Is this meant to illustrate that Windows is a problem, or something else?
Legitimate question, I can't tell what you mean.
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I feel like you think this is the case largely due to confirmation bias.
There are a lot of killer perks that do just work with no real requirement, or a very basic requirement. There are also a lot of survivor perks that require pretty hefty investment or requirements. You're comparing apples to oranges when you call attention to one group's perks having requirements but not the other.
For instance, you highlight BBQ, which itself is only a perk with moderate requirements. Get a hook, and be 40m away from survivors. Not nothing, but not prohibitive either. What about other perks in that vein, though? How about Nowhere To Hide, Darkness Revealed, Ultimate Weapon, or I'm All Ears? None of them have a particularly hefty requirement or investment, you just perform a simple action (or have a survivor perform one) and get your perk value.
At best, the problem is with the current survivor meta, rather than "survivor perks" versus "killer perks" as if there's a clear design gap between the two like you're describing.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573437#Comment_3573437
Yeah, most likely. There is always a current "thing" which makes Killers lose games. Currently MfT and I guess, once this is nerfed, they go after WoO or other popular Perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573441#Comment_3573441
I dont think it would achieve much. It is one of the Perks which bridges the gap between Solos and SWFs a bit, because then you can see as Solo-Survivor which Pallets have been used. Which is the main reason to run this Perk IMO (I dont run it btw.).
However, at one point the description was bugged and there have been instances where nerfs were forshadowed by this (where the new description was in the game and the Perk/Add On was changed to this later).
To be fair, the description was bugged specifically to be an earlier iteration of the perk, so I don't know if you can fairly say it's a foreshadowing for a change the perk might receive.
Also, I was going to reply separately before I realised it's your post too- survivors have had more than one good perk in years. Even Gabriel came with Troubleshooter too, MFT is not the only good perk survivors have gotten in the past year or so of chapters. That doesn't mean I want it nerfed to the ground, but I also don't think that's a good defence.
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Why would they change Windows? That perk's only barely even good, let along actually strong. I don't see what nerfing it would achieve.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572403#Comment_3572403
An issue, perhaps the issue, with nerfing the top perks to be as weak as every other perk is that it’s going to further grow the power imbalance between roles (kill rate grows beyond 60%—and I’ll explain why in a moment). Nerfing perks without buffing anything is just going to highlight the fact that in this game survivors are totally perk-reliant, while killers have powers/abilities and base-kit mechanics that aren’t reliant on perks at all. So they’re less affected by perk nerfs that target both sides. Like if neither killers nor survivors had any of their current meta perks, or really any perks at all, one side edges out quite extremely. It would simply be too imbalanced. And this would lead to attrition that the devs don’t want (see Death Garden).
That would be why I don't want them to do that, at least right now. I don't personally want them to adjust the meta, as I believe it's in a largely healthy spot right now.
Though, for the record, nerfing them to be less appealing doesn't have to mean making them weak. Even 6.1.0 had some examples of this- Iron Will is still a perfectly good perk, to pick one. I also don't think survivors are as perk reliant as you're making out, though I do agree with the argument that basekit killer has more to leverage than basekit survivor.
@Maelstrom808 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572403#Comment_3572403
I don't want people to stop using meta perks because they are nerfed into the ground (see Thana, also kind of CoH). I want to see small adjustments to problematic perks to keep them strong but not causing major issues from their usage while increasing the number of perks at that level of strength (as a side note, I really think that there are almost no problematic perks at this time.) Rather than being effectively forced to not use a meta perk because it's been turned to garbage, I'd like the option of running that perk or choosing something else equally as strong, but that allows for a different style or focus of play. If you have more options on hand, you'll have more variety just based on the different ways people would prefer to play.
The more you lower the average power level of perks, the more you limit the design space available for creative new perks.
I also want this! I just think it's a mistake to assume that doing this would mean the top ten most picked perks are really going to change much. Unless something becomes stronger than the meta picks (or more convenient, to account for meta perks that aren't strong at all like Windows), people largely won't bother even acknowledging that buffed stuff is worth using.
See again, the way people talk about new Gearhead, Furtive Chase, Crowd Control, Claustrophobia... People have a very high threshold before they even consider new stuff.
Buffing the weaker stuff for an even larger spread of viable perks is a good idea on its face, and I want to see it done. It's just separate to what would be required to make the meta change, at least in any noticeable way.
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@Maelstrom808 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572189#Comment_3572189
If everything is OP, then nothing is OP.
On a more serious note, rather than this approach of nerfing a few perks at a time and watching the meta settle around the next strongest thing, they should take the bottom 20 perks on each side that can be boosted with easy number changes and buff them up to be in contention for meta usage. Obviously a lot of perks can't be helped this way but I think you can do enough to give a serious shake up to the meta. See where things fail and make adjustments as necessary. There will always be the "best" build for a given situation but the more choices you have, the more varied the builds will be.
The problem with that is that if you want people to actually stop using meta tools, there are only two options: Buff everything to meta level (deeply problematic, see: release Circle of Healing), or nerf the top stuff.
Otherwise, you'll get an influx of good viable perks (Furtive Chase, Gearhead, Crowd Control, Claustrophobia...) and nobody will bother using them because their current builds work just as well as before and still work better than the newly-buffed alternatives.
I'm not personally saying I want them to do this, to be clear, I still want those bad perks buffed just so that they are available for me to use, but I do think it's a mistake to assume that'll do anything to the overall meta.
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@Callahan9116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571681#Comment_3571681
The key is to play stealthy so your not the first one hooked, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I feel like it's pretty trivial to point out that this does literally nothing against tunnelling?
Even if you're hooked second, the killer could still choose to tunnel you and the current tools to defend against that are pretty woefully undertuned.
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@TheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571831#Comment_3571831
Those are things everyone should do to try help against tunneling. This is a team game, single survivor simply doesn't have enough power to stop tunneling, unless your name is Ayrun.
When your teammate farmed you and just left you, I would blame him rather than the killer...
nobody who bodyblocks can fairly complain about being chased
You might be suprised how many players are going to cry about it when killer decides to just wait for BT.
The problem there, though, is that if the killer doesn't take the bait when you try and bodyblock for your teammate, you are throwing the match by allowing them to occupy half the team at once. There's meant to be push and pull; yes, you should try and make yourself a more attractive target, and, the game should make your teammate a less attractive target.
Again, we're not discussing scenarios where the killer reacts to a survivor mistake. Ask around these forums, you'll find people readily telling you that they think tunnelling is the optimal play even if they don't do it themselves. They're usually wrong, but that's not really the point: the point is that killers tunnel and it doesn't matter what survivors do to try and avoid making it too easy. If the killer doesn't want to take the bait, they're not going to.
The game's job here, then, is to provide pressure to avoid recently unhooked survivors. It doesn't have to be extreme, but it should be enough that continuing that chase is going to be losing value. Buffing DS, making anti-tunnel perks stack, even something like this basekit DS, would make chasing recently unhooked survivors less appealing... which makes the bait of a body-blocking teammate more appealing. The two work in tandem, and require each other. One can't be enough without the other.
And yes, I know players complain even when it's their fault, that's why I specified that they can't fairly complain.
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@TheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571681#Comment_3571681
-just don't save in front of killer unless you have to.
-don't go for bodyblock when you are dead on hook.
-try to take protection hit for your dead on hook teammates
-try to take a chase if you never was hooked / once
-if you expect tunneling, then save right before hitting second / last stage (there is no grab anymore so it is easy to do) -> that gives your teammates most time
-don't heal under hook unless killer is in chase with someone
None of these are things you can do if a killer decides to tunnel you, they are things your teammates have to do- minus the bodyblocking, but nobody who bodyblocks can fairly complain about being chased, so we aren't talking about those situations.
They also generally revolve around the idea of a killer who is only tunnelling because some situation was presented to them via survivor mistakes that made it a better call. What about situations where the killer has decided to tunnel because they think getting someone out of the match ASAP is the best call, and there's no actual mistake on the survivor end to prompt it?
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571782#Comment_3571782
To be fair, that would already be a step up for me. For example, multiple people made a post on wanting depipping to be removed. A simple "we're looking into it" makes me aware of something actually being done about it. Behaviour wanted to communicate more with us. They need to step it up, and yes, also expanding on their replies and not just acknowledgement.
That's kinda my point- they can't expand on their replies beyond acknowledgement if there isn't anything else to say.
They can either comment frequently, or they can comment more in depth. If the topic in question is just something on their metaphorical list of things to get to and that's it, they can't magic up anything else to say about it except talking about hypothetical plans, which is another thing this community doesn't respond well to.
I empathise with wanting more info, but BHVR can't ignore the reality of the community they'd be talking to. They don't have many winning options, and talking about what they're working on very infrequently (when they have something to actually share) kinda is their best option right now.
(For the record, not quite the point but I do want to address it, "we're looking into it" does not let you know something is actually being done about it. It just means they're looking into it, not that they're acting.)
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I think Grim Embrace is the only one of these that'd serve any real purpose basekit, and even then you'd achieve that by just buffing the perk such that players want to run it too.
Forced Penance is just needlessly punishing to survivors who are playing well, that's a complete non-starter, and Shattered Hope probably shouldn't even exist, let alone be basekit. If boons broke when snuffed, there'd be no point to them anymore, it'd completely undo how the mechanic is actually designed.
For things that should be basekit, I personally think none, but there are a few that wouldn't be tremendously unhealthy- they'd just be bandaid fixes papering over the actual cause. Take Corrupt Intervention, to address the killer's early game- this would be a bandaid, survivor spawns and map sizes are the core of the issue, but it would at least kinda-sorta work for most killers to stem the bleeding, so to speak.
One thing that would be neat is making BBQ's old BP stacks basekit, to encourage killers to go for different unique hooks.
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That's a double edged sword, though, because people already have an observable annoyance towards BHVR giving stock answers in places like the community QnAs and streams they host.
Realistically, if someone from BHVR comments on a popular topic, what is there to say in most cases except "we hear you and we're looking into it"? Personally, I'd prefer they only chime in if they have something of note to say, and even disregarding that people clearly and evidently do not like hearing BHVR say things like that.
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I've never understood why people act like Ultimate Weapon is like, absurdly OP tracking. It's a single scream every minute, at best. That's good, it's worth running (if you're playing a killer that can use it, anyways), but it's not OP.
I do think it could stand to be nerfed a little, especially by removing the Blindness because my god is that obnoxious to play against, but it's hardly an "easy mode" OP perk as people keep portraying it.
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@Callahan9116 said:
Suggestion to fix tunneling: be careful and adopt a better playstyle.
What playstyle can you adopt that'll help you when you're tunnelled?
You're starting a chase injured, with the killer right next to you, while out of position and not in a loop. You don't have the ability (without perks) to break chase and try to be stealthy, so that playstyle is out. You can try and use the slight protection you have to reach a loop, if there's one in range, but that's not a different playstyle, that's just asking the survivor to put in five times the effort to counter tunnelling than the killer is putting in to tunnel them.
So... what's the better playstyle? What helps survivors when they are being tunnelled other than just being significantly better than their opponent?
To the wider post: I think making DS basekit is something you'd need to be careful with, because while it's difficult to weaponise DS, it's not impossible, and giving it to all survivors for free is going to lead to more people trying. That said, if you keep the basekit stun to 3 seconds, I think it's... workable. I wouldn't leap to it as my first attempt to fix tunnelling, but it is a viable idea for sure.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570666#Comment_3570666
That means those perks are viable
I would not consider C-tier perk as viable. I would consider C-tier perks as perk that trigger useful effect but are not good. What I would consider a viable perk is a perk that is B-tier or higher.
The real reason that you're going to see gen defence over-represented in a lot of matches is because it is simply easier to play the game with them. It's not required, you can get very potent slowdown on gens from any perks if you're playing well but especially chase and info perks, but doing that is noticeably harder so people generally don't bother.
I disagree. gens with gen defence still fly too fast. the only aspect that improved is early game for killer. it is a lot better now compare to before but mid-game is still lacking for killer.
That just means your definition of viable is too strict, though. Personally, I'd argue viable perks are "perks which will consistently raise your chance of winning, if used right". I'll grant that "using right" can often imply them being pretty niche in specific builds or on specific killers, but they're still viable in that context. Furtive Chase and Gearhead are easily contenders for that description; FC might require a little investment (The perk Nemesis is a great pairing with it, for example), but Gearhead just works and works well.
Gen speed as it is right now is dictated more by your own play than by your perks, in a lot of cases. As long as your macro play is good (keeping track of where people are, occupying many survivors at once, chasing into deadzones, etc), gens don't really fly unless the survivors brought crazy stacked toolboxes and such, which in my experience is relatively uncommon.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570469#Comment_3570469
i would consider gen-delay perks as essential, that is the problem. your not suppose to rely on perks. they're suppose to be optional choices where you can run gen defence but you don't need it to be competitive. that is something that they said in 6.1.0 that killer should not be required to run gen defence.
Guess what majority of killer are running? Gen defence.
Just recently we had Furtive Chase buffed to genuinely be usable, and before that I can recall Gearhead becoming a genuinely solid perk, among others.
Furtive chase is still not very good. Sure it went from F-tier perk to like usable c-tier perk but it is obsession perk that gives situational undetectable and situational speed. if they improved old design of the perk then it would be worthy of obsession status. Gearhead is suppose to be like discordance where you get dynamic information to gain information to bounce from one survivor to the next through hit & run. it went from perk that was F-tier to C-tier. it is usable but it is not that good.
Ultimate weapon and Nowhere to hide are solid recent perks. killers still have ways to go when it comes to gaining good stealth perks, instant down perks and strong chase perks. I guess for chase, there is coup the grace which is ok but then there is.... rapid brutality. I am still playing around with rapid but.... I just don't see much value out of it. the healthy survivor just seem to always make it to a loop which makes question what is the point of the perk? The speed boost alone seems to get them to any loop on the map. Until they provide more solid different options for killer, it is unlikely your going to be seeing any killer perk variety beyond gen defence. that is why i said that base-kit gen defence might be needed for killers to even attempt to change their builds along side buffs to different perks.
To start, gen delay perks are not essential, the game's just easier with them. That's fine, of course, but they aren't the same thing.
But what I'm more interested in talking about is that the goalposts have shifted here, and I don't think it was done on purpose, so it's worth calling attention to. We've shifted from talking about viable perks, to talking about the best perks- see how we're talking about Furtive Chase and Gearhead, both agreed on by the two of us as usable C-tier decent perks. That means those perks are viable, which promotes my point that there's a lot more variety available to killer players regardless of whether they're choosing to act on that.
The real reason that you're going to see gen defence over-represented in a lot of matches is because it is simply easier to play the game with them. It's not required, you can get very potent slowdown on gens from any perks if you're playing well but especially chase and info perks, but doing that is noticeably harder so people generally don't bother. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it is the reason, not that those perks are required and not that all the other perks aren't viable.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570634#Comment_3570634
Isn't MMR typically used for ranked modes?
Well, sure, but it's also used for the unranked modes. It's just how normal matchmaking works, as far as I could figure out- I googled around a bit after DBD added MMR to better understand the topic.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570649#Comment_3570649
Competitions in wood carving. You can choose any tools that the organizers offer. My question is: how are there rusty scissors among available tools that are not designed for this at all, and a robot that automatically carves any masterpiece out of wood?
I'm done if that doesn't help you understand my point too.
...But, again, both sides would have both rusty scissors and advanced robots. You can't point to one side having the rusty scissors to claim bias when they're present for both competitors.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570622#Comment_3570622
Once again: I'm comparing things that do exactly the same job, but in different directions. If I wanted to compare the best anti-heal perks of killers with the best heal perks of survivors, I would do so. You see the difference here?
Emphathic Connection is "Make shure that my injured teammates will always be able to find me and be healed. I also have a nice addition 10% to it" perk. You're trying to compare red with warm again.
Yes, but you're comparing something that does the job very well for one side with something that does the job very poorly on another side, while also trying to make a broader claim about what those two sides have available.
That claim and that evidence don't sync up. That claim requires looking at either everything available for both sides, or just the best available for both sides. To use an example, let's imagine two different people offering different... idk, wood carvings, that'll suffice here.
Person A and Person B both have a broad variety of wood carvings, but if you were to take Person A's worst offering and Person B's best offering to claim that Person B is better overall, you'd be at best risking being wrong, at worst being actively misleading. It's entirely possible Person A's best far outstrips Person B's best, but you'd be missing that context with your claim.
Killers have good anti-heal, especially if we factor in addons as well as perks (which we undeniably should). Leverage is not indicative of the state of anti-heal, it's just a bad perk. It doesn't stack up against WMI or BK because those are the best in class, which Leverage is not but does exist outside of Leverage.
Again, I agree Leverage is too weak, but the argument used here is very misleading. If you just want to talk about Leverage, that's obviously fine, but this comparison you're using for the claim you're trying to support it with just doesn't work.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570629#Comment_3570629
IMO what we have is a mix of both ranked and unranked... so basically I'm saying to split it up
What makes you say that? I don't see anything in the game that I'd consider a hallmark of a ranked mode. I guess you could argue the grade system is kinda-sorta like a ranked ladder's placement ranks, but considering it isn't used for matchmaking and it isn't visible to other players, I don't think it really counts.
Curious what you mean, sincerely.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Make a better ranked mode and make an unranked mode
I know that it's 2 things but they are similar enough
Wouldn't the mode they add by definition be the ranked one, and the one we have now the unranked one?
We don't have ranked mode stuff in the game at the moment, so they'd have to add all that in.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570600#Comment_3570600
What difference does it make when they were released? You ask me to compare best with best (no idea why), I ask what exactly to compare? Killers have nothing better than Sloppy, which is still 2.5 times weaker than Botany. This dialog is just endless whataboutism.
I think I didn't convey my point appropriately, which could just as easily be on me as it could be on you, so I'll give it another shot with hopefully a little more clarity.
If your claim is that BHVR are too scared to let killer perks be good, outside of info perks, and you're using healing perks as an example, you need to match strength. Leverage is a bad perk even in the context of talking about killer perks, so comparing the bottom of the barrel for killers and the best available tools for survivor is going to be misleading.
You could just as easily make the opposite argument with the same tactic. Comparing Empathetic Connection to Sloppy Butcher or Coulrophobia; a tiny reward on the survivor side, and a massive benefit on the killer side, with the same requirements on both sides, which you could say means survivors get bad perks and killers get good ones. This would be untrue, but it would be just as true as your example, because it's comparing bad perks to good ones. You'd need to compare the killer's best in class anti-heal to the survivor's best in class heal speed to make this point, in either direction.
Of course, if your point is just that Leverage is too weak, I'm more than happy to ignore the comparison portion entirely and argue on those merits instead. I just think the framing of your post, comparing some of the strongest stuff available to a bottom of the barrel perk, is misleading.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570565#Comment_3570565
Oh, okay. Best anti-heal perk released in last 10 chapter? Can you remind me? Maybe in 15 chapters? No? Maybe in 20?
I mean, some survivors now prefer not to be healed at all, so in the current meta they won't even know that this perk exists in some matches.
Unhealthy? Even if i reach 100% heal slowdown in the end of the match, survivor can still neutralize it with a perk, that he doesn't need to earn. In other situations i take anti-heal perks, survivor take healing perk and they still have faster than normal healing. What part of it is unhealthy? Do you realize that you're trying to protect the most unwanted perk in the game right now?
We'll Make It and Botany Knowledge are a generic perk and a release character perk, respectively. Why would the requirement on the killer side be that it also has to be a perk released recently when you're using those as your benchmark?
Some survivors prefer not to be healed at all, meaning that buffing anti-heal isn't going to achieve anything in those cases. Making it too good only ensures more survivors don't want to be healed.
It's unhealthy because forcing survivors to stay injured preys hard on newer players, for one, but mostly because making healing too slow won't result in people bringing healing perks. People don't bring healing perks now, while claiming healing is so slow that it's not worth doing even though that isn't true. What people will do if you make ultra slow healing consistently doable is just stay injured and bring the perks that help them.
I don't know what perk you're talking about when you say I'm "trying to protect the most unwanted perk in the game right now", but by my view, perks like MFT and other stay-injured perks aren't popular on the killer side. Those are the perks that become popular when you make healing even inconvenient, let alone actually very slow. I'm not against buffing anti-heal, to be clear, I hope I don't have to clarify that, but I am against anti-heal builds that make healing impossibly slow very consistently, because the effect that will have on the game is survivors staying injured and slamming gens if they're skilled, and being demolished if they aren't. Neither are healthy outcomes for the game.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570532#Comment_3570532
you're comparing a bad killer anti-heal to the literal best survivor heal speed perks
No way! Maybe because that's the point of the comparison: show that perks that do the same thing have a difference in 10 times and a completely different level of work to achieve the same effect?
Empathetic Connection and Desperate Measures (which is not a bad perk at all) are not only healing perks, but i think they could have slight buff too. But i don't know
is that it stacks with other sources of anti-heal
Yeah, in our never-heal-and-stay-injured meta it suuuuuuch a big problem. Even without it, where is the problem, if i chose slowdown healing instead of gens? Especially if won't get it, if you won't constantly go down, and i should earn it?
I want to see it activate on unhook instead of the hook action
Nah, it still will be very meh perk. 0,8 seconds of slowdown per hook, wow, what a number. I will run sloppy or gen slowdown and continue not to remember this perk exist. Double it or remove cooldown completely, better both.
My point is, you're making out like BHVR are, in your words, "scared to death" of making killer perks that actually do anything, unlike with survivor perks. But, you're cherrypicking just one bad perk to compare to the best options available on the survivor side, when if you're to make that argument at all you'd need to be comparing the best in class for both sides.
To the second part there, how would making healing even less appealing relate to the never-heal meta? I don't understand how this relates at all, if you make healing less appealing survivors will do it less. If the never-heal meta changes, then making healing slowdown too potent would be problematic. Either way this position doesn't make much sense, unless I'm missing something? I'm sure I am.
To the third part, it still won't be useful outside of unhealthy ultra-healing-slowdown builds if its activation requirement remains the same. Activating on unhook (and maybe giving some slight number buffs) would at least make it function in a manner that makes some degree of sense, because it'll activate at a time when healing is relatively common.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570537#Comment_3570537
I have always just ate the DS stun. 100% its more efficient to just get stunned and then hunt them down again, than to try to find a new person and hit them twice. That I should worry about a perk so much it makes me not take an opportunity when it happens is probably the same reason why NOED never made survivors want to cleanse bones too. Anything else wastes more time than not.
Old DS was too good and it hurt the game, made it stale and every match was the same. And you want that to return. LMAO.
You would need more than luck to convince bHVR of that.
That sounds super inefficient to me? You're spending even more time pressuring just the one survivor, leaving the other three free to do generators the entire time for massive progress in exchange for a single extra hook stage on one of your four targets.
It'd be so much more efficient to not actually be at the hook when the unhook happens at all, and to be chasing another survivor as it happens, as that's three survivors occupied. If you must be at the hook, though, chasing someone else at least temporarily occupies two people while the unhooked one either resets or makes their way to a generator. That's also more efficient than sinking more time into just the one guy.
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I think there's some flaws in this comparison that could lead to undue conclusions, personally.
Mostly, you're comparing a bad killer anti-heal to the literal best survivor heal speed perks, which isn't super fair. You could just as easily compare Leverage to, say, Empathetic Connection or Desperate Measures-- Leverage still comes off poorly here because those two perks actually do something else in addition to their heal speed, which Leverage doesn't, but it's a more honest comparison of strength levels for the healing portion.
You could also compare WMI and BK to the far more potent sources of anti-heal on the killer side, including access to the Broken status effect and much higher contextual slowdown numbers like Coulrophobia, or something more consistent than Leverage like Sloppy Butcher.
The real issue with concluding that Leverage needs to be buffed such that it provides potent slowdown on its own, though, is that it stacks with other sources of anti-heal. If you make Leverage too good, and the killer also brings something like Sloppy/other Mangled sources or even something like Coulrophobia in some builds, healing becomes absurdly lengthy, and that's not all that healthy for the game either, pun fully intended.
That being said, Leverage likely could be improved. Personally, I want to see it activate on unhook instead of the hook action, because at least then it encourages survivors not to heal under hook which means you might be more likely to interrupt a heal elsewhere.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568663#Comment_3568663
survivor unhook then enter locker on face. killer had to let that man leave? or camping locker 40s?
like new anti-camping system, survivor don't know how to do, don't want to think how to do, don't want to learn how to do.
just want Gain an advantage in mechanics and perks.
If they're unhooked, there are two people who you could be chasing in that vicinity; the person who was just on the hook, and the person who just came to save them.
You should, in most cases, either be chasing the person who came to save them or be chasing a third survivor somewhere else on the map without returning to the hook to begin with. You do not need to chase the person who was just unhooked, and if they're hopping in lockers, they're baiting you into chasing them. Don't fall for it. Chase someone else, and let them waste their own time.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570186#Comment_3570186
more viable perks? On killer end? there is barely any buffs to killer perks. killer's meta are still stuck in using game-delay perks. pain res/jolt/sloppy is what you see on most m1 killers. for killers that do not have good synergy with jolt+sloppy, you see nerfed pop goes weasel+corrupt.
variety for survivor has improved but not really for killer.
That's only true if you assume both that game-delay perks are 100% essential, and that there aren't very many viable game-delay perks.
Since neither of those things are true, there are a lot of viable perks on the killer side. Just recently we had Furtive Chase buffed to genuinely be usable, and before that I can recall Gearhead becoming a genuinely solid perk, among others. There aren't that many perk buffs coming for either side, but killers are getting some pretty great ones, at least recently.
I'm not making a claim as to what most killer players are actually running, to be clear. I'm talking about what can be run, in terms of what's viable.
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Not to sound too aggressive, but where exactly is the empirical proof in this post?
You've given us a bunch of numbers, sure, but you haven't actually moored them to an argument in any way. You've given us three elements to consider - Hold W straight line chases, turning around loops faster, and then the Exhaustion perk ""synergy""" - but haven't actually elaborated on any of them beyond hard numbers.
We can clearly see the Hold W example is hardly problematic, it's laughably less distance than pretty much any other Exhaustion perk would give and even adding up over time is barely worth the perk slot. So, this can't be our empirical proof that MFT is overtuned.
We can't really say either way regarding loops, as you yourself agree there are just far too many variables we don't have access to that would go into evaluating this either way. So, this can't be our empirical proof either.
Then we have the other Exhaustion perks here, and while we're on firmer ground that we're at least in the ballpark of an argument, I'd personally say this is deeply misleading. The two strongest Exhaustion perks cannot be used with MFT, there is a hard mechanical restriction on them requiring you to not run prior to using it and to be healthy when it activates respectively, and even the ones that can technically be used with it don't synergise all that well- specifically Lithe, which severely cuts down on MFT's actual use case of hitting windows faster within a loop. That leaves us with Balanced, which is map dependant and inconsistent even on its preferred maps, Dead Hard, which is the only actual good synergy with other Exhaustion perks there is, and Smash Hit, which... I don't think I have to go into deeper detail there, right? It's Smash Hit. This doesn't shake out all that well for MFT here, save for being a perk that resurrects Dead Hard to be actually somewhat useful again. Something, but a pretty weak argument for MFT itself being too strong specifically for its Haste, and definitely not empirical proof.
None of this is objective or empirical in any way. There's barely even an argument in here at all, just a bunch of numbers that aren't connected to any point being made.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570180#Comment_3570180
Ok but as a Survivor, how do I stop the perk from working? Like, can't I cleanse it once I get the notification or can the killer just rekindle it?
Each totem can only be relit once, so if you've cleansed one totem the killer gets to relight it. If you cleanse that totem again, that spot is done and cannot be relit again.
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For the record, BHVR have literally never said they don't want there to be a meta, and have said explicitly that they're well aware a meta is going to form because it's the nature of online gaming. I'm not even sure where you got that from, honestly.
But, to answer the question, I wouldn't say either way when the worst perk variety was, but I do think it's better now than it used to be. I do personally see more variety, especially from survivors, but even disregarding that, there's more viable perks now compared to before, so the situation's improved from that front too.
As annoying as some specific perks/combos are right now, I'd also take this meta over the meta pre-6.1.0 as well. It's less aggravating, at least to me- even if for no other reason than that DH for distance is dead and gone, lol.
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I know Pixel Bush likes Skull Merchant, though I don't follow his streams so I don't know for sure if he plays her a lot.
For that character, you're probably gonna have to wait. Until her rework it was an invitation for harassment to admit to even enjoying any element of her, let alone actively playing her.
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Pentimento does not start lit, like other hexes. If you only bring Pentimento, all five totems on the map are dull.
They only light up when you go up to a broken totem and revive its little ghost, meaning you can get five. It's not likely, but it is possible.
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@OnisMilkMaid said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570003#Comment_3570003
Not ignoring your response: Gottem?
Clearly the other person wasn't doing a lot of thinking at all. And as obvious as that was, clearly neither are you.
I just meant that I wasn't in support of your conclusion regarding their balance efforts. You are the other person in this equation, though I didn't mean anything personal by it; I was just making an entirely separate point and didn't want to be misconstrued.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569995#Comment_3569995
If they want the game to be "played in the most fun way" they should not be balancing the game around kills and should instead balance around hooks and chases.
Ignoring that other person's response here, what causes you to say they aren't balancing around hooks and chases?
It looks to me like that is the direction behind their basekit changes (like weakening facecamping and tunnelling) and their perk designs (considering how many revolve around hooks or chases).
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It's definitely too strong and I cannot wait for it to be nerfed.
That being said, there can be counterplay depending on how long it takes that survivor to get to their downed comrade, because if you injure them before they can start healing, they can't use FTP. It's not perfect and it's nowhere near enough to justify that broken combo existing, but it's something to look out for until the fix comes in, whenever that will be.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569574#Comment_3569574
Because seeing twins addons get nerfed by 0,4% every 3 months is sooooo much better. Yeah. Seeing perks remain the same,garbage self for years is sooo much better. Come on,what the hell are you on about
You'd be okay with seeing addons get buffed/nerfed by similar percentages or perks get similarly small changes more frequently?
Because those are the changes we're talking about. Small number tweaks, those are the changes they can fit in to other updates without taking too much dev time. I don't really see any reason for them to slap those in to even more updates, it'd just feel arbitrary to me.
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I don't know about happy, because the new windows really are really obnoxious, but it's definitely a massive improvement from where it was before.
You're missing some things from your problems with pre-rework Haddonfield, namely the ridiculous fences that could loop for ages without a gap. Those are completely gone, which is itself a big improvement. The street is also more dangerous than before, which is both good for killer and provides a little more strategy for survivor.
Really, the problems with new Haddonfield begin and end with those windows, which I'd consider hugely easier to fix than what we had before. It's not perfect and still needs work, but it's definitely nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
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Is there much reason to do them more frequently?
People react pretty negatively to them when they do happen, just look at the changes to Deathslinger's addons in the most recent patch. I don't see any reason BHVR should change things more frequently than their typical schedule, personally; either they're things that are important to fix and will therefore take time and effort to code + test, or they're minor extra things thrown in alongside bigger changes, in which case it kinda doesn't matter.
Also, it'd be extremely sloppy and not very fun to experience for them to rapidly change the same thing back and forth between single patches. That's not a positive outcome, it's a negative one.
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@RaSavage42 said:
It's more and more people's take on "winning" the game
MMR only taking Kills and Escapes...Grades not mattering like at all
Gens taking 90 charges to complete... healing taking 24 charges... hooks take 120 seconds to Kill Survivors... Slugging takes 4 minutes
Gens and Hook states need to be added to MMR... Chases would be to hard to grade
To be fair, it's easy to see why an MMR system would want to only take wins and losses into account instead of anything else.
Imagine a killer who manages to get a 4K at five gens. You could argue that's not really reflective of any real skill on the killer's part because it was either abusing super OP stuff or the result of the survivors massively messing up, but that killer should still go up in MMR either way to lessen the chance of it happening again.
Or imagine someone who uses Bubba to facecamp people to death (before the AFC implementation, anyway). That killer similarly isn't showcasing much skill... but should still go up in MMR so that they go against survivors who have a better chance of countering it.
Pretty much any situation in which you would want the MMR system to take something else into account wouldn't actually benefit from it. Looking purely at wins and losses works out better and simpler overall.
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While I do appreciate where this change is coming from and do agree with it to some extent, I don't think it's necessarily a good change. Mostly, I think it'd just be kinda messy and unevenly distributed, especially considering some killers have elements of their power that can't be disabled, or whose power functions in such a way that disabling their power's input won't actually matter if they're trying to tunnel someone - EG, Nemesis and his zombies in the first instance, or Trapper and Hag for their traps in the second instance.
This kind of suggestion, I feel, is often targeted largely at top tier killers like Nurse and Blight. What I'd sooner suggest myself, for those two killers specifically, is that stuns from any source drain their tokens and force them to recharge from 0, to give someone who successfully utilises a pallet or other form of stun some opportunity to make distance that they'd likely be lacking otherwise.
If more changes are required for more killers afterwards, the topic can easily be revisited, but I feel these suggestions are often made primarily with those two in mind, so I'd prefer to tackle that issue at its source first.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568563#Comment_3568563
Watch a tournament game sometime. And i mean a real tournament game, not one that has made up rules and point systems that dictate who wins that aren't just the base "kill or escape" mechanic. And also not one that ties the survivors hands behind their back by limiting their perk and item usage.
Isn't that like, all of them?
I don't really follow the tournament scene but I definitely got the impression most of the big-name (insofar as that applies at all) tournaments had those rulesets.
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I don't think this is accurate, personally.
We can start with the big flaw: As a general rule, you get much more value from spreading your pressure and occupying multiple survivors at once. Tunnelling may be easier than this, quite a bit more so, but it absolutely is not more effective.
Another big flaw is that tunnelling doesn't really work as a consistent, must-do-this-if-you-want-to-win strategy? It's something that can be very impactful, but if you try and tunnel someone out and those chases take longer than half a minute each, you're probably going to lose that match because you've left the other three survivors free to do generators for way too long.
Beyond that, I'd like to highlight this comment about the "gen speed issue", as you put it. I'm not sure what you're referring to, so I'll not be too declarative here, but the way you're phrasing this implies you aren't just referring to the outlier scenarios with four stacked toolboxes and teams that spawn spread out-- and that is the only time where there is an issue with gen speeds. If all four survivors brought medkits/flashlights and chase perks, as is the meta right now, there isn't a gen speed issue. Gens are actually pretty balanced right now, as they don't take so long survivors at a huge detriment but they also aren't so quick that the killer can't generate pressure to slow them down further.
I'd also like to call into question the idea that some killers on the roster require tunnelling to stand a chance. Even setting aside that tunnelling isn't what it's cracked up to be here, who exactly are you referring to? Trapper, perhaps, but is anyone beyond him really that bad without putting artificial limiters like no addons and no perks into the equation? Certainly some killers are weaker than they should be, but beyond Trapper specifically (which is debatable even then), nobody's struggling so much they need the magic bullet tunnelling is presented as to win. All killers (with only that one potential exception) are viable right now, and you don't need to tunnel someone out for that to be true.
As a final note, and I'll grant that it's a little off topic but it bugs me a little, why do people act like we don't already have anti-tunnel mechanics? That mechanic being a little weak doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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@RatKnight said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568825#Comment_3568825
My most pointed issue with the system is the fact that he is incentivized to go, pick me up off the ground, and drop me by the hook so he can facecamp.
Imo, at the very least a carried / slugged person should not stop the progression of the bar. My issue is not with trading, my issue is that this new system has made the way people play way worse, and has led to more behavior like this where someone blatantly takes advantage of the mechanic (which was designed to prevent swarming) in order to enable them to camp the person on the hook.
My point, though, is that you wouldn't have had to deal with that situation at all if you'd gone for a trade. This system doesn't encourage playing this way, it's just a gap that it doesn't punish it either.
A carried survivor should 100% stop the bar, because that's going to happen far more frequently when a killer isn't trying to camp or abuse the system. I could see slugged survivors not slowing it down, but even so, I don't think that would've really fixed this scenario either.
We can't see the hooked survivor's bar, and they actively pushed themselves to second stage, so it's entirely possible that even without the slowdown from you being slugged nearby, they wouldn't have unhooked before stage two anyway. As you describe it, the Wraith was proxy camping, which isn't what this system is designed to combat at all.
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@RatKnight said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568811#Comment_3568811
I was trying to unhook. He decloaked from right outside the range of the anti facecamp, and came in and hit me. My shadowplay didn't record far enough back, but I was trying to avoid trading because this wraith had already been playing super scummy (the dudes name is literally "scum").
Sorry for the lack of context. By the time I had thought to hit the ctrl - f10 and save, it was past the beginning of the change.
Well, to be fair, the system is designed to make sure you can guarantee a trade, that's meant to be the bare minimum value you can get if you don't actively work against it.
It kinda looks like the killer was proxy camping nearby, saw you, and then capitalised on your reluctance to go for a trade. While that's still annoying behaviour from the killer player, I don't think it's fair to consider it a failure of the AFC system considering the context.
Dick move on his part but not a failure of the system, which would've worked if he'd actually been facecamping. Forcing trades is meant to be how you counter stuff like this.
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There's not so much of a working definition, especially for those who try to say that M1 killers are unplayable/punished more by [X meta thing].
For me, an M1 killer is simply a killer whose power doesn't directly do damage mid-chase. Obviously, this includes some pretty strong killers like Pinhead, whose power doesn't damage at all outside of one specific iridescent addon, as well as the weakest killer in the form of Trapper, whose power only damages indirectly when a survivor steps in it rather than directly because the killer player pressed a button.
The problem with "M1 killer" as a term is that people want it to mean a coherent group of killers of comparable strength who share the same downsides/struggles as one another, and that just doesn't work.
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So, I watched the clip, and I hope you don't mind but I do have to ask about a vital piece of context that's missing: Why were you near that hook?
Not an accusation, I just need the answer to that question before I can fairly weigh in.