jesterkind
jesterkind
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591656#Comment_3591656
Onryo: no great perks (Floods is mediocre at his best and on couple of killers)
Dredge: no great perks (I dropped Darkness Reveal even on Huntress because of how inconsistent it is)
Wesker: no great perks (SA is mediocre)
Knight: NTH (Hubris in some meme builds)
Dull Merchant: no great perks (and awards for worst perks in the game)
Singu: no great perks (there is no even mediocre one)
Xeno: UW (probably will be nerfed to useless)
Chucky: FTTE
So 3 really good perks in 8 last chapters. I think it's far from "every chapter recently".
Perks that work occasionally can still be very good depending on what their effect is.Yeah, and this effect is one hit. Any situations where one hit could be as game changing as Unbreakable? Let's be optimistic and say it works even once per match (i tried a lot, it's not), any reason i'll take it instead of Coup de Grace?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591660#Comment_3591660
Bold +rep under this
On top of every killer you listed having a great perk except for Skull Merchant (my initial exception) and Dredge (who I considered too long ago to be fairly considered 'recent', but fair play, its perks are either bad or mediocre), that's still not my point.
The original statement was that the devs nerf anything even remotely good on killer before it has room to breathe. I pointed out two things: the most recent chapters have almost all had a great perk to play with, and, the remaining perks are either perfectly decent or were bad on their PTB.
This statement still holds true. Most perks that come out are usably good, and the ones that aren't weren't nerfed to be that way before they had room to breathe, they launched that way.
Take some of your examples. Knight is a great one: He has Nowhere To Hide, a genuinely great perk, and then he has two others; Face The Darkness, a quite strong perk in the right builds, and Hubris, a perk that is admittedly a little mediocre but kind of fun to make work in meme builds.
The same pattern can be seen elsewhere to varying degrees: Xeno has one pretty solid perk, Ultimate Weapon, even if its effectiveness is wildly overrated. But it also has two others; the perfectly usable and decent Alien Instinct, and the interestingly designed Rapid Brutality that serves to be a more niche pick. Wesker has one really good perk, Terminus, and he has two others; the perfectly usable and decent Awakened Awareness, and the more meme-ish perk Superior Anatomy. So on, and so forth.
Were any of these perks strong on the PTB and nerfed before they had a chance to breathe? No. Do any of them support the notion that killers are languishing with no good options while survivor perks are left broken for years? No. These are the arguments I was actually responding to, my statements did have a context that matters.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591642#Comment_3591642
>Forced Hesitation
Perks that works once per 4 matches? And even then just gives you one hit for perk slot? Yeah, i wonder why I haven't seen it since release? Looks like people just ignoring great perk.
Terminus is only good in endgame builds and not even on every killer.
Perks that work occasionally can still be very good depending on what their effect is. Unbreakable, for example, is an extremely powerful perk despite its activation not being frequent, same with Deliverance. I would consider Forced Hesitation one of those considering what it does when it does activate.
I don't personally use it that much because my builds tend to be pretty specifically crafted, but I'd also say it'd activate way more frequently than once every four matches. Survivors do tend to group up if they're playing altruistically, and that does happen to me pretty frequently.
Also, nitpicking one of my examples doesn't really mean anything regarding my overall point, lol. Downgrade it to just a pretty decent perk if you must, my point stands.
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@Chaogod said:
And BHVR sits there wondering why they have to offer 100% blood points to killer so often. They nerf anything remotely good for killer before it has a chance to breathe. But slept on MTF for years (and historically pretty much any survivor perk).
A nerf to a perk that wasn't already meh to begin with is now going to be completely worthless and it can be yours for only $9.99! You want to play Chucky don't you? Sucks he's already gonna have a perk that's dead on arrival.
Every chapter recently (with one exception) for killer has had at least one genuinely great perk, as will Chucky's. You're trying to make a pattern out of this one perk that was nerfed, when the majority of killer perks are either pretty good or mediocre in their PTB.
In the past few chapters, we've had: Friends 'Til The End, Ultimate Weapon, Forced Hesitation, Nowhere To Hide, and Terminus. That's just the great perks, let alone the just pretty good ones - and not counting how many good killers we've gotten recently, either.
Also, MFT hasn't even existed for one year, let alone being slept on for "years". I'll grant that was likely an exaggeration, but it's an exaggeration that harms your point rather than helps it.
The real conclusion that can be drawn from this situation is that not every perk's gonna be a winner. Some of them are just kinda mediocre, and while that can absolutely be its own fair criticism, it's not evidence of one-side bias nor is it as dramatic as you're making it out to be.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591366#Comment_3591366
I think he used to be exactly that, a range killer that does not need to aim his power to well but is able to spam it without much of a penalty for missing or pulling up at the wrong moment, he is basically a worse huntress, without long range shots basically.
They work and play completely differently, the only thing they really share (outside locker reloads) is that they can damage at range- but even the way they do it is different and they're not the only killers that do that.
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Trickster has never been a worse Huntress and it's mildly annoying people keep trying to draw a clear comparison between the two like that. The only thing they even have in common is locker reloading and a vague "ranged" component to their powers.
To the wider point of the post, I think you're overreacting. He's still getting all the other buffs, as people have said, and 8 knives is still significantly faster than he gets Main Event on live servers. New Trickster is gonna feel fine, I'd wager.
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Having played a bit more of Skull Merchant since my last post, I feel pretty confident that there's not much of a problem here. A skilled player is going to make her look nasty, of course, but there's sufficient counterplay that I've been able to deduce from my own games.
There are two main ways you have to deal with drones; when the SM places them ahead of time, and when the SM places them mid-loop.
For the first, the counterplay is twofold; keep an eye out for them and avoid them if you can, and much more pressingly, go out of your way to disable them between chases. This is all fine and above board, this thread wasn't about this even, just wanted to be thorough.
For the second, my suspicions were correct, but there's sort of a secondary element as well. You do just run in the opposite direction and waste as much time as possible, she can only place so many so you'll get to a loop you can play at some point. Is this boring? Kinda, but she's not the only killer with this issue. The secondary element is that, because you actually have to be moving for a drone to scan you, there are a lot of loops where you can just... stand still and force the SM to commit to actually walking around to get you, at which point you drop the pallet and run away. Wasting time until she moves, and only getting scanned once (if that) when you do finally move.
There's also the fact that being hit with the Hindered isn't an automatic death sentence within a loop. Clown's a good comparison here again; the reason predropping is so effective against him is that even the 15% Hindered he gets isn't enough to stop you from just vaulting the same pallet over and over until he commits to breaking it. Trust me, I say from experience that this absolutely works against Skull Merchant too.
I tried to vary between placing drones mid-loop and placing them ahead of time, and while I won't deny there are some loops (like TL walls) that benefit greatly from the first strategy, I found that I had to use a mix of both that favoured setting them ahead of time in order to get any real work done. Skull Merchant may not be everyone's cup of tea but I don't personally think there are super glaring issues with her kit in terms of counterplay right now.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590874#Comment_3590874
So this is also a little bit more complicated than it sounds. In order for it to not teleport to a survivor who didn't step on it, only the center of the trap (the actual trap bit) sets off the trap - the springs won't trigger it just like an actual trap. Since this part of the trap is only about a third of the trap's total width, the amount the 'danger zone' grows is only a fraction of the entire trap. Something like a 10% increase would only make the 'danger zone' marginally bigger, you'd still need to place it carefully. They can also only be scaled up so much before they appear comically big and require a whole new set of animations. It's also not really a perfect solution since making the traps larger has the side effect of making them even easier to spot and even harder to hide in small patches of grass.
Hmm, good points, I have to admit I hadn't considered that.
I appreciate the answer, though- it's been a personal pet peeve of mine since I first started playing and first picked up Trapper, so hearing back on it is greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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@Peanits said:
A little more to the left would cover the left side, and bringing it a tiny bit closer towards the pallet would make sure the gap on right doesn't get any bigger.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590861#Comment_3590861
It's tricky because the trap's detection needs to match the trap itself. If we make it any bigger, you end up with scenarios where the survivor rightfully avoided it (like this one), but the trap 'teleports' to them and catches them anyway.
As others have mentioned, would slightly increasing the trap's visual size to accommodate be out of the question?
In the grand scheme of things it's not really Trapper's biggest problem, but it sure is annoying when you're off by a small amount like OP's picture, lmao.
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A little closer in towards the pallet and slightly to the left, I think.
I feel you though, it's maddening. I desperately wish they'd adjust trap sizes to account for teeth-pullingly annoying situations like this.
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@Xyvielia said:
I’ve felt for years that BHVR should go all-in on making their own fighting game, and the roster needs to consist of every original DBD Killer character. A mix of Killers/Survivors would be awesome as well, and even more of a turn-on for many, getting to play as their fav Survivor having their own powers or special moves.
I think the success percentage of the endeavor would be much higher than many may expect, and the astonishment of DBD mains everywhere to finally play a balanced game with these beloved alumni would be SO worth it!
Wish just BHVR had the means (employees/funding) to make a fighting game alongside making DBD healthy n balanced.
They did license out DBD to two other studios for those upcoming games they mentioned in the anniversary stream, so they could theoretically do the same for a fighting game company.
Though I think one of them is a company owned by BHVR? Don't quote me on that.
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I have a couple comments.
First, I'd like to mention that your rundown of it strengths and weaknesses isn't quite on point. You dramatically overstate its strengths by saying you can "use it any time you want to almost guarantee finding survivors" when the reality is that it's just a little more easily activated than its peers, and you also say its downsides are only that survivors are warned about this when it also has the dual downsides of being killer dependant and only giving you the weakest form of information in the game. I would not consider these pedantic differences, they make a real impact on the perk's strength.
Second, I'd say your rundown of the difference between skill gaps is a little bit... not sure how to describe it, misleading? Misguided? Basically, Ultimate Weapon is not what is relevant to either of those examples because the perk does nothing in chase, which is the main difference between your two examples.
Third leads on from this point, where you start talking about very strong killers like Nurse and Blight. The two confusing elements of this are that you make it sound like being chased by these killers is a lost cause when that's not even true for the best of the best players in the world, and the second is that you seem to be vaguely implying a problem with Ultimate Weapon specifically when the argument you're making would necessarily apply to all information perks, especially the stronger ones than Ultimate Weapon.
Finally, when you say that Ultimate Weapon forces survivors to loop the killer, there's a couple things I'd say there. Obviously, there's the main point that looping the killer is a perfectly reasonable thing to have to do in the trial, but there's also repeating the question of why you're singling out Ultimate Weapon specifically when this would apply to all info perks, and finally pointing out that the killer can still only chase one survivor at once so there's still the matter of which scream they follow up on.
Now, I'm remaining neutral on whether Ultimate Weapon is actually problematic or not for the purposes of this comment, I'm chiefly concerned with the arguments laid out in this post for now.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589454#Comment_3589454
I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that complaining about perks does not lead to nerfs. People have been complaining about MFT on this forum for months, the same way they did about DH, COH, medkits and after months of complaints they all got or are getting nerfs. Same as what happened with eruption.
Obviously one persons complaints about a perk that they want nerfed because they got outplayed by it isn’t going to get much. But it’s obvious that the community feedback, especially here on the official forum, is going to be seen and considered to make changes. Especially when the feedback/complaints are constant and consistent. Otherwise why ask us for our feedback when they drop PTBs and stuff?
Constant complaints do have power here whether we want to admit it or not.
The crucial thing missing from this rundown though, is that those things warranted nerfs. The complaints those received were not the primary reason that they got addressed- the reason for the complaints was also the primary reason they got nerfed; they were too strong.
That's why it's wrong to imply that a couple people complaining about Sprint Burst means that Sprint Burst will be nerfed. In the past however many patches, I can only think of a single perk that was complained about and subsequently nerfed that didn't warrant it, and that's not exactly a convincing precedent on its own.
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Personally speaking, I don't like either of the implications this post makes.
I don't like the implication that complaints necessarily lead to nerfs, and I don't like the implication that survivors only have a handful of perks worth using. Neither of those things are true and I don't think we achieve anything by acting like they are.
Some people are just gonna complain about whatever perks annoy them the most, it doesn't really mean anything's going to be done about it.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3588972#Comment_3588972
See this is what I wanted, an actual argument. Thank you.
Does bloodlust replace the haste or does haste replace bloodlust?
For Clown, his ability is just potions that hinder 15%. The range is smaller than the drone and he only has four bottles. This is why pre-dropping is such a good counter for him. The potions don't injure survivors or force them to get hit a lot unless he accompanies those potions with mind-games, made far more effective due to the blurry screen. That takes certain skills to get higher MMR survivors in a bad place. If he even wants haste from the bottles, he has to swap them and that takes a while. He cannot just press m2 at a loop and have the entire thing covered with his potion. Also, his gen pressure is pretty bad. Skull Merchant's drones just being there provide a lot as survivors need to crouch over there or disable them. I understand Skull Merchant needing the hindered but I was thinking more alongside the lines of 7% maximum. When it comes to Wesker, you cannot take care of his status effect when you're in chase, hence why I mentioned it.
Survivors can very rarely be forced to leave a loop. It might be ideal, but they aren't at risk of going down at the same loop so they just stay and get hit because they can juice it out. If you stay at a loop with Skull Merchant, it is a death sentence. What killers are you trying to mention here?
I don't really believe the last point is true. Most people DC'd to Nurse and Blight for several reasons, among them being the add-ons and how good some people were with Nurse. I understand its not always that, but it is a main reason.
The two things are separate- it's using your power that deactivates Bloodlust, and you don't get the Haste from setting down a drone straight away. I'm reasonably certain the new drones still have a slight activation period, and then the survivor has to be scanned by the rotating beam, so there's definitely a fairly noticeable window where the Skull Merchant has no extra speed at all if she's playing this way. If she's using Bloodlust, she can't be using her power, that's how it works for pretty much every killer- I think there's some who can do the readying/aiming portion of their power without losing Bloodlust, but the specifics escape me at the moment.
For Clown, sure, but that's not the argument that was being made initially. All you're really describing is why Skull Merchant would be better in chase than Clown, which isn't that unbelievable since he's on the weaker side. It doesn't demonstrate this being a problem at all, since setting the drone down at a loop only begins the dance around the beams, it doesn't automatically hinder the way it used to (with the purple hindering addon, that is). If counterplay is the concern, sure, Clown can't coat the entire loop in gas... because he just hits you with it. Dodging a Clown, especially at close range, is very difficult, so the counterplay lays elsewhere.
For leaving the loop, I'm thinking specifically of Artist and Knight, the two other killers who survivors tend to dislike because the counterplay to them using this strat is to just run away. When you do that, the killer isn't going to hit you straight away unless you run past them, which you probably don't need to do. It'd be the same flow for Skull Merchant: She sets a drone down at a loop -> you run in the opposite direction towards another loop during the animation -> rinse and repeat. It's kinda boring, but it doesn't force you to get hit, so your rundown of the situation is missing a very crucial explanation: How does the survivor get hit when they run away after the Skull Merchant hits M2?
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3588972#Comment_3588972
If she's using her power, she doesn't have Bloodlust
While author is mostly wrong about this just from way how it is described, it can happen.
Basically when other survivors trigger your already deployed drones (that should never happen, but it does), or when you run into while in chase (it can happen), then she would get both effects.
But that means Skull merchant did her setup before chasing and survivors didn't disarm any of her drones.
I have quite a lot of games on her and it's not regular situation.
Yeah, I think I didn't convey that well enough- I was attempting to call attention to how that can happen, but not when the Skull Merchant is applying her drone mid-chase the way OP describes.
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There's a couple things wrong with this post, that I noticed. I've not got much experience with new Skull Merchant, but there's some critical flaws in your reasoning here.
First, there are a few instances of trying to claim that a survivor has to deal with Bloodlust, the Haste from her power, and her Undetectable, but those things don't stack. If she's using her power, she doesn't have Bloodlust, and if the power's already set down it still takes fifteen seconds to reach even tier one of Bloodlust. For the kind of argument you're making, Bloodlust should be somewhat irrelevant; if the SM is using her power mid-loop, she cannot have Bloodlust.
Second, you make the claim that 10% Hindered is an obscene thing for someone who also gains Haste to have access to, but Clown has a much more easily applied 15% Hindered with much easier to apply Haste to boot, and it's clearly not a problem on him. You talk about Wesker, but his 8% Hindered is both not the strongest part of his kit, and a penalty for not taking care of his status effect, it's not something that's actually meant to help in the average chase with him- that's what Virulent Bound is for. Skull Merchant and Clown, though, primarily use that Hindered, as far as I can tell for SM anyway.
Third, I'm not sure why you're claiming a survivor leaving the loop is necessarily going to lose a health state every time they try to. That isn't the case for the other killers that force survivors to leave the loop, and I don't see why it would be for SM.
Fourth and finally, when you say that Skull Merchant gets tons of DCs and that's a clear indicator something's wrong, you have to understand that people are not approaching Skull Merchant neutrally. They are approaching Skull Merchant as a killer that has been widely hated for both legitimate and illegitimate reasons since she came out- in some people's cases, since her trailer dropped. She is a loathed killer for reasons that often border on irrational, and that is why she gets DCs at such a higher rate than other killers.
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It's only bad for some killers, though, and it's very far from the worst even for them.
Something like Badham or Garden of Joy is still miles worse than Hawkins even for the collision-based killers (+ Singularity) whose powers are less favoured by indoor maps.
It could still probably be improved for those killers, don't get me wrong, but it's vastly overstating your case to say it's the "worst map in the game by far" for killer as a general role.
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Even setting aside how you're sort of overstating all those survivor perks... what exactly are you proving by comparing really good perks to really bad perks?
All you're proving is that Dying Light specifically is a bad perk. It's not the only killer perk that exists, though, nor is it emblematic of how strong gen defence perks are on average.
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I'd genuinely love to see DBD characters show up in fighting games. Maybe BHVR could even have a dedicated one made like the upcoming PvE and Supermassive games...
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I'd probably peg Wraith as the gold standard for addon design, with all those criteria in mind.
The one area he scores fairly low in is Variety, since he does have a fair few repeated types of addons that only scale with rarity, but he scores high everywhere else. Basekit is consistent and easy to understand, the addons all follow one another logically, they're almost all genuinely viable, and they have decent opportunities for synergies within full builds.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587401#Comment_3587401
Until BHVR can figure out how to stop tunneling and I mean stop it unlike their bad anti-camp mechanic that doesn't do anything. FTP and Buckle Up Should not be changed at all.
I don't really see how one unbalanced thing justifies another unbalanced mechanic. It'd be one thing of FTP + Buckle Up was an anti-tunnel mechanic, but it's not, you can use it in any chase provided you're healthy when you swoop in to save your teammate.
Tunnelling could still use some adjustments (though "stopping" it would be a fool's errand), but that doesn't justify something causing problems well outside the realm of someone being tunnelled out.
(Also the anti-camp mechanic does exactly what it's meant to, people just assumed it was for anything except for facecamping when it isn't.)
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@RoastedGarlic said:
As soon as anyone gets their way they just move to the next thing to cry about. I see people cry about adrenaline, resilience, ftp, buckle up, stbfl, pain res, jolt, nwth and it just makes me sad. You guys will never be satisfied and the cycle will just repeat over and over.
The problem with this take is that it assumes the nerfs we do get happen because of the "crying", as you put it, but they don't. I can't think of any perk nerfs from the past year or so that weren't targeted at perks that needed to be changed in some way, with the sole exception of Prove Thyself, which I'll readily agree was a weird outlier and didn't need to be nerfed.
Whether the perks in question got the right changes is a different matter, but the perks that get nerfed typically needed some kind of change.
Heck, even some of the perks you cited need some changes. FTP + Buckle Up is an obnoxious combo that could do with reigning in, after all.
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I've yet to try myself, or go against it either, but I don't see why this'd be much worse than any killer with a threatening power doing the same thing.
What was it about Skull Merchant's power specifically that seemed more potent than most others for this experiment, who else did you try it with?
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Half of those things are just issues you'd expect in a live service game (I have personally seen bugs, cheaters, and server issues in multiple other games I've played), and the remaining issues are deeply subjective (poor balance, bad maps, and whatever "promises they didn't deliver" means).
DBD isn't substantially worse than other live service games in any of these regards. Saying it should be illegal to sell the game in "this state" is pretty extreme, but even assuming that's exaggerating for effect, I don't personally see what the core of this issue is.
I guess running badly on consoles is a pretty fair critique, especially for the Switch version, but the post isn't just talking about that so I'd hesitate to assume that's the core of the issue.
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I think most people want both?
When a perk's too strong, it needs to be nerfed. Buffing other perks wouldn't stop MFT from being too strong, the only solution there is to nerf it. Same with most other things that have gotten nerfed recently, you don't fix those things being too strong by making other things stronger.
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@bobateo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586602#Comment_3586602
But that isn't what a cooldown is and adding a condition of 'if I get all the value a perk can give over 30 seconds in the first .05 second' does not suddenly make UW cooldown universally 60 seconds. The perk has a set 'value' that can be gained over the course of its 30 second activation. Whether or not all the value is gained right at beginning or all at the end does not change its actual cooldown of 30 seconds.
While there might be instances that UW feels like it has a longer cooldown, at the end of the day it doesn't because you could find all 4 survs at the 29.5 second mark and still get the full 'value' that the perk can give right before it goes on its actual cooldown.
A 30 second activation window comes close to guaranteeing that you will find a surv with it and the 30 sec cooldown means that more than likely by the time you've chased, downed, hooked that surv, you are at or very near being able to activate it again. Saying that UW does have a 60 cooldown without adding the huge qualifier of 'in very specific situations where you get all the perk value right at the beginning' is pretty misleading. I am not saying you're doing that, but other people claiming the 60 second cooldown have.
Oh, yes, to be clear, saying that Ultimate Weapon has a 30 second flat cooldown and saying it has a 60 second flat cooldown are both equally wrong.
Ultimate Weapon has a variable cooldown of between thirty and sixty seconds, depending on when it actually procs. The activation window has to pass before the cooldown even starts, so it is meaningfully part of the cooldown before it can be used again. You can't give the perk a fixed number that is the definite real cooldown, because it varies.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586718#Comment_3586718
I wouldn't even go that far. It was strong, but not p2w strong. More like Pay-to-hope-and-pray-I-have-a-chance-at-surviving-1-gen-cause-tunneling-is-even-easier-at-this-point-in-time. Once per match and just equipping it by no means give you this great advantage and higher probability for success to escape (or track and get kills in UW case which it does very well). A little spicy feet and some luck maybe skill to waste time, but also Unnerving Presence and Enduring were both strong shut-it-down perks for DS. Can't DS when you miss 1 skill check? Or just a well-timed 3 dribbles and a hook if you were savvy enough, and you didn't even need a perk for that. Hardly p2w if it's not letting me use it all game long and offers an array of different options to counter it. Even comparing across eras UW is still the better perk. Also it literally has blindness in the perk? That doesn't give an advantage in chase if you pick one up near by? Information denial? Where it's happening at for comm callouts, where the down is, what resources are available if there is a pallet immediately there? Hello, WoO???
All I can say is that there's a reason DS was changed so many times, and it wasn't because it was only granting a potential slight chance of escaping.
Also, no, Blindness doesn't give you an advantage in chase. Why would it? Very few of the auras you'd block with Blindness, potentially, are even relevant to chasing. You literally mention WoO, which is the most relevant to chasing but the least impactful. Survivors don't need Windows, they will - or should - loop just as well without it. For everything else you mention... eh? I guess where the down is can be somewhat impactful to block, but the team's gonna see where the hook is either way, so it doesn't really matter outside of slugging (which are both outside of chase anyway).
Still, the Blindness should be removed anyway, even though it doesn't achieve much, so that's a bit of a moot point.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586664#Comment_3586664
I was and at its core on release, it was a strong offensive perk, but at least that led to the wise decision somewhere down to line to tie it to once per trial, there was some risk on when to best use it and immediate skill check means you won't always get value if you miss time/ stutter/ frame drop. STBFL imo was fine, it was strong on certain killers granted, but you still had to work for your tokens and most of the time to get the full value and ime that meant outside just bad survs it was not until mid-game you got to really put your foot on the gas pedal. Competing with such perks at the time of BBQ, Nurses, Ruin, TOTH, NOED, Tinkerer, Bitter murmur, whispers, dying light.
UW has benefited from the power creep since that time. Benefit from different design approaches devs have taken to perks. You can have up all match long with nothing tying it down. I can get so much uptime on a perk with little effort because the CD is done by the time I've hooked a Surv. I say look i'll use this tool you're going to give me, but come let's call a spade a spade here.
Well, there you have it, right? On release, DS was a strong offensive perk, leagues stronger than UW. Then they changed it to post-unhook, and it was still leagues stronger than UW, and very easy to weaponise. It wasn't until the Conspicuous Actions change that the perk was finally balanced.
As for the last part, I don't know why people keep talking about the uptime on Ultimate Weapon. It doesn't have permanent uptime, and a single scream per survivor every thirty to sixty seconds is... hardly proof it's OP on paper. It's very strong if you're a good killer and you're good in chase, but those two things are completely independent of the perk itself. It's not an aura, it doesn't give an actual advantage to chasing or downing survivors, it just gives you a spot to start looking.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586652#Comment_3586652
😂. Okay Huxy, let's get you to bed.
Were you not around for old DS or something? Hell, I wasn't around for old STBFL and I know how busted it was.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586602#Comment_3586602
But that variable factor doesn't mean someone can come up with a random number like 45/50/60 and claim that's the cooldown and it doesn't mean they're entitled to call me "wrong" if I don't agree with that random number... I've only said UW's cooldown is 30 seconds which even by definition, is correct.
I specifically mentioned why the variable cooldown is in line with that definition you posted.
The minimum time you have to wait between uses is somewhere between thirty and sixty seconds, as per that definition in your post.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586594#Comment_3586594
Enjoy your personal cooldown.👍
If everyone screams as soon as you open the locker, because they're all already within your terror radius, Ultimate Weapon unambiguously has a cooldown of sixty seconds. The minimum time you have to wait before you can use it again includes both the active duration, as it cannot be activated again during that period, and the cooldown afterwards.
Ultimate Weapon has a variable cooldown that is at least thirty seconds, but can be longer, depending on how early the survivors scream. This is kind of immaterial when it comes to how strong the perk is, but it is just how the perk works. I'm not sure why you're contesting this when it's pretty obvious.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
A few reasons. The tracking it offers is too powerful for how easy it is to activate the perk and for how often the perk can be activated (the cooldown is too short). There's nothing wrong with the perk being easy to activate, but if that's the case then it shouldn't turn your terror radius into a moving detection zone for an entire 30 seconds. In that time you can basically cover the entire map and once it's over you only have to wait 30 seconds before it can be used again. You mentioned how the perk doesn't have very many limits/restrictions on its use and that's part of why it's too strong. It simply gives too much information for free and has a degree of reliability that no tracking perk should have.
The Blindness component of the perk is not a problem and does not need to be changed.
I can't speak for OP, but it's that first part that tends to trip me up in these conversations.
The tracking that Ultimate Weapon offers is the weakest form of common information in the game, only second in any information gain to Whisper's binary on/off info. A single scream is not particularly powerful information, compared to other sources. It's pretty much exactly what you'd look for if you needed a type of info for a perk like Ultimate Weapon; low effort, low reward.
I'll agree it could stand to have its duration/cooldown numbers shifted but I just don't see it being straight up overpowered. It offers, at best, a scream every thirty seconds. More realistically, a scream every minute. That's good, but it's nowhere near overpowered.
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Hard agree. It's surely only persisted this long because barely anyone even plays Freddy, let alone notices that Adrenaline does this, tbh.
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@Huxy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585922#Comment_3585922
Because getting 8 Tokens of STBFL is ignoring your Shred. Getting 8 M1s as a primarily M2 Killer is extremely inefficient and a waste of your time if you know how to actually use the Shred. You should be getting about 3-4 M1s per game if you’re really good with Shred
Not inherently, no. Like I said, there are scenarios where you can't use Shred, and STBFL is inherently just a net gain for all of those M1s even if you don't get all 8 stacks until close to the end of the game.
Better than some other perks in that slot? Eh. Good? Sure.
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This is a wildly overstated case.
STBFL is a little overrated on Demogorgon, but it's definitely still strong. Combine it with the Black Heart and Barbs Glasses addons, and you've got a very aggressive Demo that doesn't let up in chase. Perfectly useful, and quite strong.
I'll say it is a lot less useful on Nemesis and Xenomorph because, unlike Demo, their M2 actually hits in places that Shred doesn't due to them hitting over obstacles, but it's still... fine? It's fine. Nemesis probably wants to use it least so he can build up his Mutation, two conflicting build-up mechanics at once is probably inefficient, but it's not as though you can't get value from it all the same.
I don't know why some people think equipping STBFL means you're necessarily ignoring your M2. You have to use both in most games for most killers (at least the ones discussed here), so it's clearly just a net gain for whenever you do have to use your M1.
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I just recently finished the Evil Within games, so I'd love to see good ol' Detective Castellanos make it into the Fog. I'd rather see an associated killer be pulled from the first game, despite the second one being superior in every way; largely because I think our good friend Box Man is a cooler killer design than most of the stuff from the second game, and if they could make Laura work I'd be there day one. I'd sell my belongings to get that killer.
(Plus, Nurse Tatiana legendary skin, please...)
Perhaps controversial, but I would like to see a third RE chapter bring in Jack Baker. However, I don't want it now, I think they should wait a while to give RE/DBD some breathing room as a concept.
Way more niche and survivor-only, but I'd adore seeing John Constantine in this game, but only if they can get the old Vertigo version. The new version does less for me personally, and in my opinion, is also less fitting for DBD in general.
Not a full character, but I want a Punchline (DC) skin for Legion. One part that being a fitting concept, one part... my girlfriend really likes Punchline and would actually play this game with me if she were added lol. Might as well throw in a Joker skin for Trickster while you're at it.
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@Dogma_loki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585411#Comment_3585411
I think the whole "hockey" analogy has persisted for so long, is the same reason the "Pretty good job so far!" phrase has stuck around for so long.
To some people it is an example of BHVR being out of touch with their own game.
Which is another discussion in itself.
Considering they're wrong about that, my "you should move on" take still stands.
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My hot take: Most perks on both sides are perfectly usable, not trash. Situational perks, also, are not inherently trash, especially when their situation is under your control and not dependant on RNG. People just don't want to put any effort into using any specific perk (even when that effort is just picking different supporting perks and adjusting their overall playstyle), and want their perks to either be extremely strong to warrant any change in gameplay or to just work in the background.
It's not a divide of old vs new, either. Most chapters recently have had at least one genuinely good perk for its associated role.
Secondary hot take based on someone else's post:
@Beatricks said:
Grade based MM was better than hockey based MM.
The reason why people don't agree with this is that grade had bright, shiny badges next to your name that was interpreted as your skill level and not how much you have played in recent months. Nowadays rainbow matchmaking is just as bad if not significantly worse than before, but with no bright, shiny grades next to people's name to point at, folks just assume everyone is where they are and [current excuse why hockey based MM is the worst in online gaming history] is blamed for all the imbalanced matches.
If the devs tweaked the previous MM to weed out the Top% monsters that go on 500-1000 winstreaks and pit them against the best survivor 4 stacks, we could actually be having fun in this game.
You guys have got to let the whole "hockey" thing go. You misunderstood an analogy, it happens, take the L and stop trying to meme it into being a valid criticism somehow. Move on.
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Interesting question, I don't usually think of perks in that way so I had to think about it for a second.
I've had Overzealous builds recently, so bare minimum it'd be Haddie. If we go a little further back, Overcome is a busted ass perk I've used on occasion. I've also done builds with Troubleshooter and Lucky Star, and I've been meaning to use perks like Dramaturgy, Scene Partner, Wiretap, and Cut Loose.
The perception that BHVR primarily focus on useless perks is, in my opinion, wrong. Every chapter recently has had at least one genuinely good survivor perk in it, and even the others typically aren't all that bad, with exceptions.
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It's definitely Meg, she's got two S-tier perks and even the third is pretty solid.
However, Claudette is way closer than people give her credit for. Empathy is an unrivalled info perk for tracking your teammates, Botany Knowledge is one of the stronger perks in the game right now, and even Self-Care does have its place even if it's admittedly far and away the weakest of her three.
Honourable mention should go to Dwight. None of his perks are particularly flashy or stellar, but they're very serviceable and useful for newer players.
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@Dreamnomad said:
If they were going to separate casual and ranked (which I think is a terrible idea) then they would need to fundamentally change how the game is played. For instance, in casual mode gens should take longer to complete but there should be higher density of pallets and some mechanics to prevent camping and tunneling to a much greater extent. That way both sides feel like they had a chance to actually play the game. Maybe even remove all perks, addons, offerings, and items in casual mode.
What you're describing are the changes that would (or at least could) apply to ranked mode, not quick play. By definition quick play would be what we have now, and the mode that makes changes to try and enforce a more fair, competitive ruleset would be the ranked mode.
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I see the intent behind this buff, and I think it's got merit, but I don't know that it's the right direction to go. It kinda feels like it'd be too similar to Stake Out.
Myself, I'd rather lean into it being the new-player "hit skillchecks easier" perk, and have it widen skill check success zones permanently, not just while injured.
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They aren't nerfing the perks that solo queue need, though.
What perks help with the gap between solo queue and SWF? Typically, it's information perks, as that's one of the main things you're losing when you can't coordinate with your teammates... and no perk in the game can make up for teammates who just aren't interested in playing well. The specific info perks that solo queue players would make most use out of - things like Bond and Kindred, Empathy, the new(ish) perk Troubleshooter - aren't typically the ones that get nerf attention. Heck, even Windows, a perk with moderate solo queue usage, hasn't actually been nerfed despite it (mystifyingly) getting a lot of hate.
The issue arises when people think of solo queue as directionlessly hard, like every single element of the game is dramatically harder for solo queue. This isn't the case. Chasing is pretty much exactly the same whether you're in a SWF or not, with the only real difference being the potential for a bodyblock in key moments when you can coordinate. Chasing on your own, though, is exactly the same... and MFT is a chase perk. It being nerfed doesn't unfairly hurt solo queue because it affects one element of the game that isn't different between solo and SWF anyway.
It's mostly the same for other perks that get nerfed, too. The only one I can think of even semi-recently that solo queue did make more use of than SWF was Circle of Healing, and it's not as though it being nerfed actually hurt. Sure, you can't heal yourself ultra-efficiently anymore, but... good? That was bad for the game, even if it helped mitigate annoying teammates. You can still heal yourself quick enough for it to be viable, and you can still get healed by teammates. So, even that isn't an example of widening the solo/SWF gap.
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Regression - and slowdown in general - is perfectly viable right now. What it doesn't do, though, is supplement good gameplay.
That's not a dig at you, to be clear, it's just how it is. A lot of players kinda got used to perks doing the job of slowing down generators for them, and now that slowdown is (largely, with specific exceptions) in a healthy spot right now, they're left a little floundering as to how you slow down generators without the use of perks at all.
Eruption is still great if you know how to use it, Overcharge has never been good, Call of Brine is an info perk now, and Pain Res is arguably better than it was before. There's also Jolt/Surge and Pop! Goes The Weasel if you want specifically regression, as well as perks like Deadlock, Corrupt Intervention, Dead Man's Switch, and Grim Embrace if you want to block the generators, and so on and so forth. Combining these tools with the basekit slowdown of occupying as many survivors at once as you can is quite effective right now.
Are they all equally useful? No, and that's never been the case, but depending on your killer and other perks you can make use of most slowdown tools in the game right now. Very few are so weak as to not be viable.
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@oxygen said:
The same thing as what we have but with stricter matchmaking and no backfill logic. If the latter is impossible, penalize lobby dodging in the mode.
.. that's it. Don't do anything else at first and see what happens. Changes can be made later, for starters simply let sbmm flex as hard as it's capable of when unshackled and allowed to take its time and gather all the stats under the sun.
If we go into pipe dream territory I'd love if there was a way for 5-man teams with 4 survivors + 1 killer to play against eachother in a way that isn't a quick best-of-1-and-done way but that seems like it'd be a further expansion or refinement, not an initial change.
Not to be inflammatory, genuinely, but what would the draw actually be for that mode? You'd just be queuing longer for the same game you'd get in the quick play queue. You'd need some kind of reward/incentive, even if you don't put ranked-typical restrictions in place.
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I think there's a distinct difference between an actual failed design, and a killer that just isn't popular.
Singularity and Artist, for example, are some of the best designed powers in the game (so long as we whistle and look the other way regarding Artist's forced-to-leave-loop nonsense, anyway), and they're also not very popular. That's because they're complex and macro-focused powers that are both hard to learn and don't apply in a simple, "you are in chase so you press the button" way. That doesn't, in my view, make them failures.
Complex killers are, typically, unpopular. That's okay, though, the game has enough killers that it can handle having some that serve a more niche audience- everyone else already has their darlings and will continue to get more, after all.
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I've never understood why people say Ultimate Weapon outclasses every other info perk when that's blatantly not true. It's more convenient than most info perks, but that convenience comes at the cost of the info being much worse than what you'd get with other tools.
That being said, I do think one part of UW is indefensible, and that's the Blindness. There's really no justification for that much Blindness being that easily applied, it isn't thematic with the rest of the perk, and to top it all off, it doesn't even directly benefit the killer so much as annoy and inconvenience the survivors. That part should go.
Other than that, I do think they could look at the 30/30 split on the active duration and cooldown, that is pretty strong, but still. It comes at the cost of it just being a scream. You don't need to counter that as survivor, you just... move. Or hide. Or be good in chase. It literally just tells the killer to start looking for you, that's it.
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So fair warning, this is an expensive build, requiring an iridescent addon. It is, however, pretty dang fun, especially on a favourable map.
So, addons. You can use whatever addon you want alongside it, but the lynchpin of this build is the iridescent "Black Incense" addon, which shows survivor auras for three seconds every time they vomit. This is already pretty ridiculous information... so let's capitalise on it properly, shall we?
Here's the perk build: Lethal Pursuer, Furtive Chase, Nemesis, fourth perk up to you but I like to slap BBQ in there just for a little extra aura reading. The idea is that you get everyone infected, giving you potent aura reading from the Black Incense and Lethal Pursuer, and then when you hook the Obsession you get stealth to ambush Broken survivors wherever they are. Nemesis swaps the Obsession manually if you need it, applies Oblivious to make being Broken even more threatening, and also gives even more aura reading on top of it all.
If you're on a favourable map, something like Lery's (or now Hawkins, I guess!), the survivors are constantly vulnerable and consistently have no idea where you are until you're right on top of them. To beat this, survivors need to cleanse more... which empowers you in a different way, giving you access to Corrupt Purge.
Expensive, but definitely fun.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581407#Comment_3581407
I didn't say it's a bad perk.
It bridges the gap between soloq and swf.
Making a few perks far stronger facilitates meta. There will always be a meta but if all perks are better balanced it wouldn't then be the same exact perks for a specific objective or playstyle like it is now.
You said they gutted it, which is what I'm responding to primarily. They didn't, it's still a good perk.
There's always going to be a meta, and that means that you are always primarily going to see the same handful of perks. People don't gravitate towards the best few options, they gravitate towards the best option. This is obvious now, where there are a lot of good perks for various different things, but people don't run them.
For example: healing perks are exceptional, but the prevailing narrative right now is that healing isn't worth it. There are a fair few good chase perks, but nobody runs anything but a few Exhaustion perks and Windows. There are good stealth perks but nobody runs any but Distortion (and now Calm Spirit, but that's bound to be temporary). There's even good options for gen speed that people don't use because they require a bit of going out of your way.
We are at the point where there are good options to choose between, so we must contend with the reality that stale perk variety is equally a community attitude problem just as much as it's a game balance problem.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581396#Comment_3581396
100% it needed tweaking. But not gutting like it had. Coh is actually still insane for sfw but for soloq coordination it's mid.
Then you get threads complaining about swf pre stacks to be disabled instead of enabling it on soloq...
Why remove content when you could add it??
This is why the game is so stale.
That's kinda the point, though. They didn't remove, gut, destroy, kill, or whatever word you might want to use, Circle of Healing.
It's a decent perk in solo queue and a great perk in SWF. In what universe is that removing content or lowering the pool of available options? It's a good perk, you'll get moderate use out of it. It's also good in specific builds; pair it with Overzealous for near-constant gen speed, for instance.
This is my point in microcosm. People aren't willing to accept that a perk can be less impactful than the literal strongest things in the game and still be 100% viable. Nobody wants to put any thought or effort into making use of the plethora of good options they have available to them and then complain about the supposed staleness of perk variety when it's completely on them.