jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581372#Comment_3581372
Pre nerf coh was the closest we ever got soloq to SWF level. All the devs needed to do was buff killer considerably, then the game would be in a much more enjoyable state then it is now.
While pre-nerf CoH was definitely nowhere near as broken as release CoH, and I was in the minority opinion back then that it was totally fine on its own... people didn't run it on its own. They ran it with medkits, and other sources of healing speed, and those things made it completely unjustifiably overpowered.
You can't buff killer considerably to accommodate for something being that disgustingly broken. Bare minimum, you'd end up with survivors needing to run CoH or they'd be completely slaughtered, if that were the case.
While Circle is less useful now for solos specifically, it's still a very strong perk and it's much more healthy. This is still a good outcome, the game wouldn't be better with its pre-nerf version still around.
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There are plenty of good perks on the survivor side, people just don't want to run them.
That's fine, obviously, people can run what they feel like, but it becomes a problem when perks that are totally fine and even quite strong in the right builds/with the right playstyles get called "useless", and when people start making broad sweeping claims about how "survivors only have five good perks". Neither of those statements are true.
Experiment with your builds. Think about what you actually want, how you like to play, and peruse the other available perks in that class. Maybe start thinking about playing differently, to spice things up for yourself. There's a metric boatload of good healing options, maybe try running some of those every once in a while. Maybe go for a killer-info build and bring underutilised tools like Alert.
The real issue is, people keep latching onto whatever is currently strongest - like MFT, or release Circle of Healing - and use that as their baseline for "good". That isn't the baseline, it's far and away above it; those two perks were too strong, not just only meeting the bar for viable strength.
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DMS/Pain Res is still a thing because it only happens four times, and because DMS isn't actually that good. It's fine, it's a decent enough combo, but it's not overtuned.
As for Pain Res and Pop, I have to say I disagree. Both perks have pretty significant RNG elements to how good they are (a token of Pain Res can be completely wasted if it's used at the wrong time, and Pop is even more heavily dependant on the progression of the generator it's applied to), and both perks are of a healthy design. Even combined, those two elements aren't changed in any meaningful way.
It sounds more like the issue is particularly strong killers that can generate their uses of those perks very quickly, but ask yourself, if they weren't using those two perks but still got hooks that quickly... wouldn't you be losing anyway?
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To be fair, I think those are different groups of people.
I, for instance, think that Windows is fine, and that Ultimate Weapon is also mostly fine. I do think the Blindness should be removed from it, but that's more a quality of life thing than an actual nerf; it serves no purpose but to be annoying.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580028#Comment_3580028
Survivors getting quality of life improvements aren’t a win/win for everyone. It’s just a win/win for survivors. It means that survivors get stuff that affects the vast majority of them, and killers get left in the cold yet again.
Two things.
1: We are specifically talking about shrinking the gap between solo queue and SWF. That is, overall, a win/win for everyone, as long as you look at the game as a whole.
2: Killers are not left out in the cold. Killer players get QoL improvements too, just not the specific type that you're looking for as often as survivors.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579990#Comment_3579990
Balancing the kill rates between solo q and SWF is important for both sides of the game. Giving survivors quality of life improvements is not important for both sides of the game. There is a difference.
The two things are the same. The only ways to affect the balance of solo queue versus SWF are going to be things that improve their experience, which is a win/win for everyone.
Even if they weren't the same, though, who cares? Everyone gets quality of life improvements, there's no reason solo queue players should be left out in the cold there.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579983#Comment_3579983
Wanting quality of life buffs that can apply to all killers isn’t “a narrow view”. There are so many purposely frustrating killer mechanics, like purposely bad FoV, purposely loud chase music, a forced short M1 attack mechanic that can steal hits from the killer, purposely overturned sound occlusion, purposely unreliable footsteps, maps that are purposely red to hide scratch marks and pools of blood, etc.
BHVR could be addressing those, and then make generic number adjustments to fix the kill rate if it gets raised too high.
No, it isn't. Acting like talking about the difference between SWF and solo queue is only caring about survivors' experience is a narrow view, because it is actually a very important element for balancing the entire game, including both roles.
Yes, they could be doing those things. They could be doing a thousand things that could help the game. All you can fairly say about the current situation is that they just aren't doing those things right now, not that they're neglecting killer players or whatever.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579726#Comment_3579726
What I intended to say first, and I still think is the most important point of this conversation, is that survivors keep getting quality of life updates like the survivor HUD, and killers still don’t have an FoV slider, even though it’s the one and only announced quality of life update for them.
And this happens because “solo q is miserable” gets sympathy, but “playing against SWFs is miserable” just gets responses like “you can’t punish people for playing with friends”
That's an extremely limited view, though. The balance of solo queue versus SWF is important for everyone, it's not "survivors get [x]". If that balance is, y'know, balanced better, things which affect killers can be more potent and effective because they won't be fighting against two separate groups who get affected differently.
Also, those two statements should get the reactions you're talking about. If you say "playing against SWFs is miserable", it hints not only that you've got some confirmation bias regarding specific annoying games, but that you actually want to do something about it. Well, doing something about it usually means nerfing SWF, and that's why the response you lay out is an appropriate one.
Also, killers do get quality of life updates. You're just narrowing the options down to just QoL that affects the shared killer basekit, rather than QoL that affects both sides or that affects a specific killer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579616#Comment_3579616
And when do we get to the part where it's miserable for many killers to go against SWFs that are making voice comm callouts? Survivors get buffs to make solo q less miserable, but killers never anything to make it less miserable to face SWFs that are using voice comms for competitive advantage.
And that's the problem with this double standard. It gets to be used as an excuse to give quality of life updates for survivor.... but killers still haven't gotten their first announced quality of life update, because it's so much less important than all the survivor updates are.
So, just to be clear: This is a completely different thing to what you said first and what I was responding to. I'll happily respond, but this is a different conversation to the one we started. I'm assuming that just means you don't have anything to disagree with in my post, though.
So, to your question: we get there... either never, or immediately, depending on your point of view. If you think survivors playing well is inherently miserable, you're never gonna see that meaningfully addressed because it's just how things go. However, if you mean being able to leverage aggressive use of mildly unbalanced things (kinda like old locker flashlight saves, for example, or more extremely unbalanced things like old hatch), that's part of what I was talking about before.
As you make "survivor" a coherent role you can balance in one go, part of that balancing will be tuning down the things that SWF players can use to make the game miserable for killers. It's not only part of that effort, it requires that effort for it to be fairly possible.
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I'll admit to not having tried it before, but Corrupt Intervention on Trapper seems counter-intuitive to me.
If people are running away from where they spawned, they're more likely to run into you while you're setting up, and if they manage to get any gen progress it means the untouched gens are the ones explicitly as far away from your setup as possible.
Maybe I'm missing something with that, though.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I just wish we would be consistent on the solo q versus SWF thing. Because usually this happens...
1) Survivors complain that BHVR needs to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF, because solo q is miserable.
2) Survivors tell us that SWFs don't need to be nerfed, because there isn't a big difference between most solo q and most SWFs.
Can we please pick 1 or 2.... but not pick both at the same time???????
They aren't contradictory in their respective contexts, and you're attributing them both to "survivors" when that's not really how this works.
SWFs don't need to be nerfed, but more importantly, they shouldn't be nerfed. There are a number of reasons for this, I've already touched on a few in this thread.
At the same time, the specific differences between SWF and solo queue can make the latter role kinda miserable at times. That doesn't necessarily mean they're substantially, ridiculously weaker in a strict balance sense, but it does mean that their quality of life is a lot lower. You're stuck running specific perks you might not want to just to have basic info, you're rolling the dice on whether your teammates even care about playing altruistically, and you can't coordinate important tactics on the fly. Some of this can't be fixed, but some of it can.
There's also the other reason to shrink the gap between solo queue and SWF, which is that the closer those two groups are to one another, the more "survivor" can be a coherent role that can actually be balanced. Right now, and especially in the game's past, there was not one group that BHVR had to balance, there are and were three. Killer, solo queue, and SWF. Changes affect those latter two differently.
It only seems like a contradiction because you're conflating a few arguments, too. People point out the sheer number of casual and unskilled SWF specifically when other users start talking about SWF as this unstoppable juggernaut of imbalance wreaking havoc on the health of the game, which isn't true. People then talk about shrinking the gap between the two for the previous two reasons mentioned, while commenting on the strength difference that does exist.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579034#Comment_3579034
The perk is usable on every Killer regardless of skill level.
The place where it's worst is in mid-tiers of skill but it's still extremely strong. It outclassed every single other tracking perk in the game.
It pushes high tiers even higher and still buffs lower tiers a lot.
It's tracking is absolutely insane on Killers like Oni, Nurse, Blight, wesker etc etc. It doesn't matter what perk you have or how you opponent plays, you'll find them and kill them if you're even remotely skilled.
Contrast this with MFT where Survivors need to be experienced and moderately skilled to get any significant value and you can't be playing against certain Killers who aren't affected by it.
Sorry about the late response, my notifications seem to be broken lol
How does it outclass every other source of tracking, though? It's explicitly the weakest type of info in the game (save for Whispers and its very specific mechanic), and while it is more freely available than most sources, it's not so available that it overcomes that by any real metric.
To me, it feels like people are seeing strong chase killers with mobility doing very well with it, and conclude it must be the perk. It isn't, though, it's that they're killers that can very efficiently capitalise on even weak information- which is what UW is, it's weak information. Not a weak perk, I think it's pretty decent, but what I'm saying is that a scream is only a general idea of what direction a survivor is in. One scream every 60 seconds at most, 30 seconds at least, is... good, it's a good perk, but it just tells the killer where to start looking for someone. Everything else - everything - is down to that player's ability to follow environment clues to find someone (assuming they aren't just in the open and visible, anyway) and their skill in chase, which UW doesn't affect whatsoever.
Those killers would do just as well if not better with any other source of information activating at that moment. Ultimate Weapon isn't doing anything more than pointing them in a direction and ushering them on their way. It is a good perk, I'm not saying it's weak, but it's not that good by a longshot.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579444#Comment_3579444
Thank you for actually reading the content of my post as per most of the others per above. You have valid points. What would you suggest?
It's worth mentioning that I don't think SWF rate as a genuine balance problem regarding them being too strong, but rather, I think the problem is that there are two distinct groups of players that make balancing the survivor role very difficult and thus, make nerfs to certain things less impactful.
So, you'd be looking at a twofold tactic of lessening the gap between SWF and solo queue, then lessening the strength of survivor tools in general. Perks, items, even the maps the trials take place in, those are things that - with less of a gap between the two groups of survivors - can make coordinated teams less unbearable to go against.
Everything else, I would urge my fellow killer players to adjust their strategy. Teams that are overly altruistic, for example, are generally easy to punish the second they slip up, because you've got a lot of them occupied. Teams that are stealthy are good proof for why a balanced build that includes info as well as anything else is better than putting all your eggs in one basket. Teams that genrush... well, if they're actually bringing those tools they're very difficult to deal with, that's where you'd be looking at actually nerfing things.
On top of all that, keep doing what BHVR is already doing. Nerf problematic perks where necessary, and keep the balance in check as much as possible elsewhere.
The bottom line is: We can't assume that players being efficient is an outlier to be corrected. People are gonna play at least mostly efficient, so what we need to do is just make sure they don't have tools that make doing so too easy.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579371#Comment_3579371
My proposal would be: people in a premade are not allowed to share perks or items. So only one people can bring Adrenaline, another can bring a medkit. So not 4x adrenaline or 4x a medkit for example. This would them less overpowered.
The reason they can't (or shouldn't) do something like that is that it's a nuclear option that'd affect many more players than the types you're trying to mitigate.
Not everyone in a SWF is even trying all that hard. The game has a thriving casual playerbase that just like to hop on with their friends and play a few matches. Start placing serious barriers they have to navigate before they can even queue, and a lot of them would just drop the game because it wouldn't be worth the hassle.
So that's the downside, right? Let's look at the upside: Some specific perks get marginally less strong, and the overall strengths of SWF remain exactly the same. Coordinating bringing multiples of any one thing really doesn't register as a benefit, and, you'd still have four Adrenalines proc at once in games against solo queue so you haven't even gained the removal of that particular annoyance.
It's not hard to see why this is a broad sweeping change meant paradoxically for very specific problems, too. Do we really care if a stacked SWF all bring four Quick & Quiets? Four Red Herrings? Four Corrective Actions? It's only even appearing like a problem because of the strongest options, and even then, barring specifically premades from using more than one doesn't even fix that entirely.
SWF really aren't the scary boogeyman they're often positioned as, but they are stronger than solo queue, by a noticeable margin. The reason for this is that they have better information gain without the need for perks, and they can trust their teammates to play... predictably, if not completely optimally. Neither of those strengths are affected by this proposed change, so it really doesn't achieve much beyond harming the game's health overall.
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@please_explain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579371#Comment_3579371
They can show if players are in a party in the pre-game lobby but that will make a lot of killers dodge.
So, they can't do that either.
That's another example of something that isn't a solution.
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What exactly would you propose they do, though?
They can't just disable the ability to play with your friends outright, that'd be ridiculous. They can't put serious restrictions on people for playing with their friends either, for the same reason.
Genuinely, what do you expect them to do beyond just monitoring what strong players (SWF included) are making use of and adjusting it accordingly?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578918#Comment_3578918
Uhhhh, very much disagree.
UW is actually significantly better than MFT.
That's a pretty extraordinary claim.
Do you have any reasoning for it?
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@coco_shotz said:
Those of you defending UW show what side you play and how biased you are. Both these perks are problematic because neither requires any real effort. You can't justify searching a locker and having a scream effect in your terror radius for 30 seconds and try to consider that better than MFT. Lockers are more than plentiful on maps and it's not a big time frame to open one and get info on anywhere from 2-4 survivors at a time. Seriously y'all need to learn that everything goes both ways and if you wanna cry MFT is busted (which it is) go ahead, but you aren't entitled to acting as if UW isn't just as problematic.
I can justify that, very easily. Here I go:
Opening a locker is a minimal effort sink, and for that effort, you get a minimal reward. A scream is the weakest form of information, and the terror radius quirk of the perk makes it slightly less reliable anyway. While it's hard to directly compare even relevant survivor and killer perks, let alone two that affect different things, I don't think it's too controversial to say that 3% Haste while injured is a strictly stronger effect than a single scream notification.
I promise you I'm asking this next part in good faith, I am interested in your answer. Can you demonstrate why Ultimate Weapon's effect is problematic? That's the effect that I'm talking about here, not the activation requirement. Why is that effect strong enough that it requires more than minimal effort, can you give me a real-game example?
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To be fair, Ultimate Weapon is a dramatically weaker effect than Made For This.
While I do think that perk could use some minor tweaks (largely to the tune of removing its Blindness, and maaayyybeee tweaking the active duration/cooldown ratio), it's hardly anywhere near as strong or potentially problematic as MFT was. The effect is strictly weaker in every way, being the weakest form of tracking that requires a terror radius (thus making it killer and map dependent), and unlike MFT, it has no crazy synergies that make it overwhelmingly busted. It barely has synergies at all, for that matter. Distressing, maybe?
The design space is trading availability for a weaker reward. Perks that provide much more valuable information, specifically auras, tend to either require more effort or have more conditions. To use the MFT example, it'd be Lithe's much stronger Haste traded for much less availability and extra conditions.
Also, as an aside, the statement "it isn't a problem for a perk to require thought and effort" doesn't inherently mean every perk must require that same thought and effort. Some perks can just work passively (or in UW's case, semi-passively) and that's okay, it's true of perks on both sides.
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It'll be random, of course, since it relies on the killer bringing a hex, but you can at least make the act of blessing something that helps you instead of harms you.
Recently I've been running the build Deja Vu/Detective's Hunch/Circle of Healing/Overzealous for this exact synergy. Blessing a totem activates your Overzealous, which stacks with your Deja Vu, which helps you finish generators to proc Detective's Hunch and find more totems, etcetera- all while Circle is up on the offchance it might help your team a little.
If I were going out of my way to do this challenge, that's the build I'd probably bring.
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I think the two most relevant things to point out here would be:
1: MFT is not gonna be completely useless. It'll be a strong perk you have to put thought and effort into using, and there's nothing wrong with that. It might need a slight compensatory buff, but that's what the PTB is for, testing and finding that out.
2: The perks you cite, Pop and Pain Res, have been changed, multiple times. They're just one of the scant few perks on either side that people still think are decent after their various changes instead of immediately decrying them as utterly useless and killed beyond measure.
Also, four slowdowns isn't that good for the killer, but that's a separate rant I may make into a full post someday.
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Huh? Why?
I get wanting to remove the tint from something like Borgo, because that actually makes a difference to the killer's ability to track survivors, but Hawkins' green tint isn't affecting anything like that. It's just a neat visual gimmick for the map, there's no problems it's causing.
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I loved Hawkins, and I'm glad to see it back.
How bad it is depends on the killer you're playing, and from memory it's fine on survivor too- though I'll admit I didn't play survivor nearly as much back when it was still in the game.
It's a great map for stealth killers, for one. It's also perfectly neutral for any killer that doesn't have a collision-based power, and it's even pretty okay for the ranged killers.
I liked it! It's a fun map.
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@Volkfang said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578226#Comment_3578226
"Will new Stranger Things content come to the game?
We don’t have any additional Stranger Things content to announce at this time."
Because of that line, I doubt the new killer (this patch anyways) will be Stranger Things/Vecna. If it is, then I don't know why you add the above question into the FAQ. Along the same lines, with all due respect, I'm not sure why the "Why was it removed?" question is there. The answer is just a PR answer that doesn't really give an answer. Of course I understand that these kind of answers have to be worded this way for legal reasons and such and it was probably a private licensing dispute, but my personal preference is just not to have the question. Again, no rudeness intended just my personal feedback. Maybe others feel differently.
Very happy for those who finally get to share in the Stranger Things content, I know there are alot who have been wanting it back. Also very happy for those of us who succumbed to the FOMO last time will still get a full release as well. Cheers!
Oop, you're right, I missed that one. Never mind!
Does make me curious what on earth the new license could be, though.
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The part about this not replacing any planned content is the most interesting to me. Considering I doubt any other licenseholder would be okay with their stuff being overshadowed by ST returning, I think it's reasonable to speculate the new killer might also be related to ST?
Just spitballing, ofc.
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Myself, I've been running builds that attempt to synergise with one another quite a bit.
A good one I've been getting moderate success from is Circle of Healing + Overzealous + Deja Vu + Detective's Hunch.
Detective's Hunch shows me totems, which lets me bless one with Circle, which activates Overzealous, which stacks with Deja Vu for extra speed. It also leaves Circle up for my team to actually use, and Deja Vu also gives me info on the current 3-gen.
Other than that, I've also been running builds that include both Empathy and Autodidact, which gives surprisingly good info on your teammates' whereabouts throughout the trial, provides a bit of a minigame of getting Autodidact stacks, and - if successful - cuts down on altruistic healing by crazy amounts. I usually pair that with Deja Vu and Kindred, but fancier perks can be used instead.
Honourable mention to Detective's Hunch + Inner Healing + Overcome, for pretty consistent chase-breaking and free heals.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576727#Comment_3576727
By this argument, gift of pain is equally strong as the meta perk sloppy butcher.
Sloppy requires you to win a chase, take a health state, and use a basic attack at least once in that chase.
Gift of pain applies the same debuffs, but also requires you to go to a very specific place and go out of your way, which is entirely based on RNG to do the same thing.
Saying these are identical at all seems ridiculous, and this is the exact same thing as circle/WMI, just for killer.
...No, not even a little bit?
Sloppy just requires you to M1, Gift of Pain requires both a down and a specific hook. That's not equivalent to the comparisons being made between WMI and Circle.
The two perks here also aren't even comparable directly. Sloppy is used primarily to apply Mangled, GoP is used partially to apply Mangled, as it has a secondary effect to compensate for being a Scourge Hook.
Someone being hooked and you being the one to unhook them are real requirements that actually matter. Trying to separate Sloppy's single activation requirement out into three just to try and sound similar in progression doesn't actually work because it's still just the one thing that actually matters: Basic attack the survivor. Circle and WMI also do the same exact thing in different ways, which GoP and Sloppy don't. This is a very weird comparison.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576995#Comment_3576995
doesn't do much? WoO makes you never run into dead-zones. it is definitely top 5 perk for soloq.
Like I said, the application it does have is that it'll show you what resources your teammates used. That's decent, but it's hardly all that strong- it's not the same as never running into deadzones, because sometimes you don't have a choice in that, but it does mean you aren't likely to do it accidentally.
For all other instances, it does nothing you can't do without it. It's fine, there's nothing wrong with it in either direction, but it's consistently portrayed as being way stronger than it actually is.
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It's not a strong perk largely because it doesn't really do much.
Windows of Opportunity is an info perk, so the assumption is that it gives you information you wouldn't have access to otherwise. However, Windows just shows you... map resources. That's information you do have access to without the perk, Windows just eases the burden of remembering where they all are. It's nice to have it, I won't begrudge or condemn anyone for running it, but you can hardly call it strong on those merits.
The one thing it does do is show you which pallets have been dropped by teammates, that's info you wouldn't have otherwise. That's decent, it's perfectly serviceable, but I wouldn't call that 'strong' either.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575951#Comment_3575951
Circle of healing is currently well make it with an investment of searching, at least 14 seconds of setup time, and travel time when you go to actually use it. It can also be completely turned off, forcing the travel and setup again.
We'll make it is usable immediately, has no setup, and is activated by doing literally nothing different during the game.
Circle is just we'll make it with extra steps, and those extra steps make it terrible.
Since people like nightlight as a reference, circle is at a 2.58% pick rate, which is below alert (3.12%) and is barely above a literal empty perk slot (2.41%). I think that last one says enough.
We'll Make It also requires someone on your team losing a hook state, you being the one to unhook them, and is on a timer before it deactivates and those requirements come up again. By contrast, Circle is something you can set up immediately as long as you know where a totem is, remains up until it's snuffed, and can be used by your entire team rather than just yourself.
Its requirements (not extra steps, requirements) make it a sidegrade to WMI. More consistent, more available, but with a bit more time investment to balance it.
Circle isn't terrible. Circle is exceptionally strong in SWF, and moderately strong in solo queue.
I've said before that I don't care about pickrate. As you say here, even assuming Nightlight's stats are correct (which is a pretty hefty assumption), you've got two strong perks at a low pickrate there, comparable to having an empty perk slot. Clearly, the playerbase as a whole has some odd opinions about what counts as a good perk.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576326#Comment_3576326
Yeah I know those games have it, but barely anyone uses it, because it is much easier to just tell people over voice... Maybe besides the ping system in dota to let your team know what item a specific enemy has, but other than that I barely see them used.
You would still get value even without a headset... Also I don't know man if you don't have ten bucks to spare for your hobby that seems like a reason to get a part time job or maybe even spend less time playing the game overall, not to sound judging, but like it is really not that much.
I find it a really idiotic argument to basically say, just because it only solves the problem in the vast majority of cases it is not relevant, it decreases the gap that's what matters... That would be like saying we do not get air bags for all cars, because it does not prevent any death caused by collision, like what?
If voice chat was the only thing we ever added to close the gap fine then you could keep searching for the perfect solution you would probably never find, but nobody said that. You can have more than one thing to fully close the gap, you could for example select languages you speak so you can get matched with people you can communicate with or decide you want a team without voice because you currently don't want to interact with anyone and what not, just because one solution does not solve everything does not mean it cannot be part of a bigger solution that basically solves it completely.
It's easier to tell people over voice... if you are able to. If your teammates do not speak the same language as you, if you do not have a headset (for whatever reason), if you don't have the privacy to voice call without insane noise pollution, if you just want to avoid harassment based on gender or accent or whatever... then you'd be using the other methods for exchanging information.
Implement both at once if you must, but the voice chat won't achieve much and cannot be implemented on its own. It's important to correct your rundown on my take; it isn't that it wouldn't solve everything, it's that it wouldn't solve anything. You would still be at square one with the exact same problem: Some players can exchange information, and some cannot.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576291#Comment_3576291
I don't know man, I haven't heard complains from games like dota oder counterstrike that the voice chat is not working.
Also from a hardware standpoints, aren't all the consoles compatible with that? Or at least allow the use of a headset? Besides the point were you can get a headset for like 10 bucks so the price on this really is not an argument...
That would be because those games tend to have other ways of imparting information on the player so they aren't solely reliant on whether or not the stars align for their teammates to be able to vc with them.
Also, you've heard one complaint, from me, about Overwatch. It is a thing in those games, but comms are both more expected in that genre and the games offer alternate ways of gaining information. For instance, those games can include a ping system, with minimal tonal concern- among many other methods.
Headsets may not be ultra expensive but ten bucks is sometimes more than people have. Put a gun to my head and tell me to buy a new headset right now, I wouldn't be able to. It's the least impactful of the reasons, yes, but it is still one factor of many that contribute to whether or not someone can benefit from a voice chat system-- and since the entire stated goal of implementing one in the first place here is to cut down on some having information and some being left out in the cold, that's relevant. If the solution doesn't work for everyone it necessarily cannot be considered a solution to this particular problem.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576091#Comment_3576091
Such things will never work for everyone. Everyone has the capability to get the information via voice or text chat, you can as well deactivate it because you don't feel like communicating, but the language barrier will always be there, and even if we add a chat wheel or add aura reading it will still not be entirely equivalent to communication via voice chat with 3 other people that speak your language and that you are comfortable around speaking with them.
Not everyone does have the capability to get the information via voice or text chat, because of the language barrier, as well as the less important but still relevant hardware barrier for voice chat specifically.
Though, I will grant you that nothing we can do will actually rival SWF. The point should be, imo, to give all players info they'd need to make informed decisions in key moments. This information can't be gained through voice chat, it'd be too inconsistent, so other methods would be required.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576037#Comment_3576037
If we are looking at some server regions, Europe and America, for example, most people there will be able to speak english, but sure, you could as well add a chatwheel function together with voicechat and text chat just to make sure that everyone has a way to communicate, that feature alone would work without additional hardware. But like if you can afford a pc or console to run this game you will most likely be able to also afford a headset, especially since it makes it harder to play against certain killers if you don't use a headset anyway.
I cannot really talk about the other server regions but considering you have over a billion english speakers wordwide you will probably encounter one every few matches. But I have to say I am yet to encounter a game with voicechat and or textchat where not at least one person was able to speak a language I speak.
That's missing the point, though. You're talking about "most" or "at least one", when the solution has to work for everyone that is attempting to use it.
Europe, the servers that I play on for most video games, has a lot of instances of people on voice chat not speaking English. This was one of my biggest barriers for success in ranked Overwatch, back when I played that; playing on the EU servers meant that a huge number of my teammates overall could not communicate with me -- at least, not via voice. That game, though, gave a lot of information to players without the need for input from their teammates, and that is the direction DBD should go.
Voice chat would mostly work as a solution for NA servers - as indeed it does for other games, I visited Canada for a few weeks and playing ranked Overwatch there was much easier for this exact reason - but it wouldn't worldwide, and that means it doesn't work as a solution at all.
Just to be sure I'm not only shooting down other ideas, some examples of things that the game could do without running into this problem would be: Showing teammate's loadouts pre-game and in the match details screen mid-game, giving some form of basekit Kindred to know who is where when it's time to orchestrate a save, adding secondary information elements to a lot of perks and improving the ones that exist, and allowing Keys (+ to a lesser extent, Maps) to be substitutes for voice comms via buffing the heck out of their info elements. A ping system could work too, though I'd be wary about tone.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/395827/how-does-bhvr-plan-on-balancing-swfs
Bring solo to the level of swf and balance around that... Basically add voice and text chat to the game so you have a homogenous group of players with the same tools at their hands if they wish to and now you can balance around it instead of having different groups. Not really that hard is it.
You can't fix that issue with voice chat, because that isn't a homogenous group of players with the same tools at their disposal. It's a segmented set of groups, between players who have both the language and hardware to engage with it and the players who only have one, or who have neither.
The information you give solo players has to come from the game, not from their teammates talking to them.
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575767#Comment_3575767
Whenever I dare suggest that SWF mains whine that no killer would ever play against a full SWF, almost like SWFs are not fun for Killers to play against. They don't appreciate it when you point that out to them.
That's a perception issue, though. A lot of killer players would feel like playing against a full SWF is inherently going to be a miserable time, and dodge them by default. That doesn't mean they're right to feel that way, it just means that the negative outcome happens either way.
It's also worth mentioning that the biggest obstacle to accurate matchmaking right now is lobby dodging. If it increases, that gets worse. That's flatly not worth it for the miniscule information gain you'd get from seeing players in a party together.
To the wider topic, they can't really do much to change SWF as a concept. You can't punish people for playing with their friends by adding harsh restrictions on them, and you can't remove it (either literally, as people played together before the party system was introduced, or meaningfully, because even attempting it would kill the game), so the game just has to be balanced around them.
Good ways of doing that would be to increase the information gain of solo queue players, and balance killers accordingly. It's not insurmountable, given that your average SWF is either just a group of players who aren't that good at the game or a group playing so aggressively that it's trivial to punish them for it. It's only a problem if you assume that "SWF = bad time".
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@Dogma_loki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575637#Comment_3575637
Extremely good?
Any perk that requires more than one person to even use can be hardly considered "extremely useful".
I assume you're referring to Circle of Healing there and not Eruption, but either way, yes. CoH is a Zone Of We'll Make It, and since that perk is also extremely strong, CoH is too.
Effective altruism is extremely powerful. Fast healing is extremely powerful. Don't neglect your teammates.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575637#Comment_3575637
I mean, for prove specifically it feels very revisionist at this point. I've always been of the opinion that the repair speed wasn't ever an issue, but that's not at all the common opinion. The entire reason that perk was even nerfed at all was due to outcry that 'gens are too fast' and 'prove is op'.
And as far as pick rate goes, if it drops from top 10 (>12%) to under 3% usage rate, as with circle, then it feels very cherry picked to say it wasn't 'killed'.
If you're using a subjective 'it can be good in very specific circumstances' then everyone's going to just have a different opinion and there's nearly no point in discussing it. By that metric, Thana is still good on plague and legion, and can't be considered killed either, which seems, frankly, like a ridiculous take.
Pick rate is really the only metric we can use here, since 'win rate with this perk' isn't really available and doesn't even paint a full picture even if we had official stats to go by.
Well, yes. You've stumbled across my point.
You can't fairly say these perks were killed, and that BHVR love to just nuke perks into uselessness instead of balancing them, because they don't do that. The perks that people cite are usually pretty good still, and perfectly viable. They're not by any reasonable definition nuked into uselessness, at best that's an unprovable opinion.
It's worth mentioning that the conversations had with this rhetoric are not about pickrate, at most pickrate is used as a proxy meaure. They are about strength, that is the language used and that's why I kinda bristle at them. I wanted to hear out the evidence before committing to that position, though, hence my asking first.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575605#Comment_3575605
Since/after 6.1.0, and strictly limited to perks that have been changed with significant usage impact: Thana, Eruption, Call of Brine, Reassurance and Scavenger (compared to PTB), prove thyself, circle of healing, and the second dead hard nerf. Depending on what you consider 'significant usage drop' you might also consider stealth changes to repressed alliance and blast mine in the list.
If you're including the perks that changed in 6.1.0 then you can add ruin, tinkerer, pop, first dead hard nerf, iron will, calm spirit, botany knowledge, and DS.
Some of these came back into popularity later, because of meta changes or were buffed back, but there was a drastic change in usage rates at the time these were nerfed.
Well, to be clear, I don't really care about pickrate, I care about strength. So, most of the perks on your list there definitely don't qualify; Eruption and Circle of Healing, for instance, are still extremely good perks regardless of how many people actually run them.
For the rest, I'll cop to forgetting about Scavenger and Thana (I honestly forgot that Thana got changed after 6.1.0 to begin with), but the rest I don't think it's fair to say were killed. Prove wasn't good to begin with, Reassurance joins Eruption and CoH as extremely strong, Dead Hard is still decent, and CoB... I suppose you could count that as a perk that was 'killed' if you're really strict, but it's not like it's useless, just outclassed.
That's kinda why I ask. I keep seeing people say that, but there haven't really been any instances of perks being nuked outside of Thana and arguably Scavenger if you count PTB changes. Most of those perks are either still good, or weren't actually good to begin with in the case of Prove specifically. (Still weird it got nerfed, that change still doesn't make sense to me. Must be a rare case of nerfing solely based on feedback.)
It's the same with MFT, too. That one did get weakened more than some on this list, based on this dev update, but it's hardly looking to be useless. Just requires a little thought now instead of being passive and slapped into any build.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
Seems sad. Like the fist attempt at destroying eruption until people said it's overkill.
Whats up with killing perks so bad it just adds to perk bloat instead of balancing them? Is balancing really so difficult instead of just nerfing? They do this to both sides.
Well, I won't be spending any more money and I've lots and lots of it. Again, a balance would suffice but making this just another perk to add bloat to the selection is a hard pass for me.
I don't even use it, but this is just sad to see. Smh.
Also so pleased to see Blight's add ons are still the same ^_______^
Are female vaults fixed or are we still cool with giving killer gimp free hits on messed up vaulting?
Nice work.
I see a lot of people say this, but you're the most recent so I'll ask you - can you actually name any perk they've nerfed so badly it's 'killed' them recently?
For me, recently would be any time after 6.1.0, if that helps narrow it down. I see people say this, but I can't think of any examples myself.
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We already know when it's coming, which implies it's close to done.
My assumption would be that the Trickster changes could've been started, finished, tested, and added to the game before they finalised the Twins rework. Considering how broken and buggy the Twins are, I don't even think there's anything nefarious or whatever at play, I think it just kinda makes sense.
If they can do more between now and the Twins rework happening, makes sense for them to do it, right? No reason to hold off on making good changes just because.
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@LilyPad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575183#Comment_3575183
You need to look at it from a realistic point of view instead of an idealized one.
People like consistent perks because there is no way to see what you will be against and prepare accordingly.
Nobody wants to run a build that only sees use 10% of games because that means in 90% you will be perkless. And to really clarify, a survivor without perks is far far weaker than a killer with no perks.
MFT is now a gimmick perk that won't do much even as a gimmick. It doesn't increase healing speed, doesn't give Endurance to the healed target, doesn't have a longer Endurance timer, and the 3% is not impactful if you have to remain deeply wounded.
Inconsistent perks are bad design and should be avoided.
See, you're assuming that when I say a perk has the "potential" to be good, I mean it's inconsistent. I do not.
There's nothing inconsistent about this version of MFT, on paper. There's the general variance that you'd expect from a perk that you'd use while playing aggressively, of course, there's always the chance that a killer just ignores you while you try to get their attention, but beyond that how consistently it performs is in your hands. Bring a source of Endurance and play aggressively, that's it, you now have a consistently useful perk.
There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency. While there's obviously some degree of variance that's acceptable even for top tier perks, you generally want a perk to work more often than it doesn't. The snag is that people do not put any effort or thought whatsoever into making any given perk consistent, because they don't actually want to run that perk. If it requires any thought or effort, they just move on to the next thing that provides comparable value with less effort on their part.
Generally, this is fine, people can play how they want and run whatever they want. It becomes a problem when those same people try to claim those same perks they have no interest in making use of are bad, useless, or worthless, especially when it's the result of a nerf/rework like this. If you think that way, you're naturally going to gravitate to things that are too strong due to giving tons of value without effort, and that means those things will gradually be nerfed out from under you, which can be quite frustrating if you cling to the idea that they're the only viable/consistent options.
As an aside, the 3% is exactly as impactful as it used to be, while you're in Deep Wounds. That status effect doesn't make you run slower or take vaults slower, so it doesn't effect the usefulness of MFT outside of making it activate less frequently.
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MFT is far from useless, at least as far as anyone can tell before it's tested.
This community, I've found, has kind of a problem where a perk has to either work passively or provide obscene value to warrant changing anything about how you play. A perk that is potentially quite strong, but requires supporting perks and a change in playstyle, will be written off as completely worthless and a dead perk because wanting to run the perk (and therefore putting some thought + effort into using it) is already a step too far.
Based on the dev update, my read is that MFT has good synergies and can be paired with any of them to be quite good, if you change your playstyle to make use of it. Play "normally" and try to have MFT give passive value, it'll do next to nothing. Go out of your way to bring a source of Endurance and play aggressively so the killer hits into it, MFT gives slightly more value than before, due to it now working alongside Exhaustion perks.
That's a perfectly useful design space to be in, especially since MFT gives Endurance itself, so you can even just try making use of it that way. But, because you have to try to use it, and not have it work in the background, it's immediately being written off before anyone's even tested it.
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@Ginnypig said:
Besides MFt, there is nothing any1 asked for. Who tf even play trickster lol
A lot of people, Trickster is very popular.
But, even if he weren't, wouldn't that be a good reason to change him? To make him more appealing to more players?
Also, it doesn't matter if anyone asked for the changes, it matters if the changes are good. Even considering that, it's worth mentioning that people have very much asked for Garden of Joy and Mother's Dwelling to be adjusted.
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@MegaFreeman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567033#Comment_3567033
If you're actually getting bullied by an extremely niche situational build, then git gud
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567035#Comment_3567035
5 health states lol? I'm just asking for 2. Please explain how would someone be able to stack 5 health states
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567044#Comment_3567044
How is there already way to much in this game, everyone runs same 5 perks
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567049#Comment_3567049
Why shouldn't it be a thing tho? Killers have so many powerful perks but its OP for survivors to be able to use Dead Hard while getting tunnelled?
It wouldn't be OP for survivors to use Dead Hard while being tunnelled, that's why I suggest making that possible without letting survivors stack their Endurance outside of that scenario.
It's not just a case of pure strength, there's also fun factor to consider. Tactics that killers employ to be unfun are steadily being looked at; tunnelling and camping have both gotten changes to make them weaker, and even slugging was looked at for a potential change a little while ago. It stands to reason that survivors can play in a manner that's unfun and frustrating too, though, right? Being able to take multiple hits before you go down whenever you want because all the perks that apply Endurance stack would mean survivors would go out of their way to be as annoying and aggressive as possible, which isn't exactly fun to be on the receiving end of.
There's a reason it was changed, after all. If we want to specifically improve anti-tunnel, there are ways of doing that without making ultra-aggressive plays something the killer can't possibly punish or react to. If the basekit anti-tunnel protection wasn't Endurance, and hitting it just blocked the hit like Mettle Of Man does, then you'd be able to use Dead Hard or Off The Record after you're hit with it.
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Pretty good changes, I think. Excited to try out the new Garden of Joy and Red Forest maps to see how much they're improved, for sure.
Trickster changes seem interesting. Making him 115% seems huge, that alone seems like it's going to help, let alone removing recoil entirely. Exciting stuff.
Made For This... it's not the change I wanted, but I think it's fair. It's still a very viable perk, it just requires a little bit of thought to use, as well as being useful against killers who tunnel and/or apply Deep Wound by default. I have no doubt people will stop using it entirely while claiming that BHVR have made yet another perk entirely useless, despite that not being even close to true, but that's fine. I care about what people can use, not what they are using.
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Homestuck.
Even if it's just cosmetics. Give Feng a cosplay skin. Give Trapper a trollsona. Give me, please, I am begging, Kanaya Maryam legendary skin for Hillbilly.
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Going back to grade-based matchmaking would result in worse matchmaking, not better. For all the flaws this system has, and it does have some big ones, it's still overall more effective than the old system.
I still get matched with baby survivors who don't know what they're doing, but much less frequently than before. The opposite is also true, though that does tend to happen a little more frequently; I still get matched with ridiculous 8k hour players (and literally a comp player according to their steam bio, the other day), but it's not that common overall.
As with most things in DBD, the best way to improve things is to go forwards, not backwards.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574515#Comment_3574515
Yes, because Windows is specifically used to be run together with MFT. A nerf to MFT will most likely also lead to a big drop in the use of WoO, because MFT users love to run on autopilot, apparently.
Oh, gotcha. Not to be rude or anything, but that was kind of my point? Windows isn't a problematic perk, and doesn't need to be nerfed, the perks it's often run alongside aren't an indicator that it's a problem in any way.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573800#Comment_3573800
Its actually pretty easy: WoO shows a MFT user where to run in order to waste the most time and be the most efficient. And THATS the reason a lot of killer players are so fed up with it: they are forced to chase after survivors that are on auto pilot with often no means of catching them, because MFT throws the carefully crafted balance of the last years, that apparently took the killer and survivor movement speed difference into account, out of the window.
Its not that MFT is the first good survivor perk in years and now is in danger of getting nerfed because of this fact alone, its in danger of getting nerfed, because it touched of the corner stones of the game, the inherent speed difference and how survivors and killers play around these (vaulting windows also plays into this) and breaks it in two. Some things shouldn't be touched and survivor speed is one of this.
It feels very strange that BHVR was so very careful with Dark Theory's 2% Haste and then suddenly ran with it and slapped 3% with no timer, no cooldown, no limited condition on it. Part of me understands and feels the pain of "we get one good perk and then it gets complained non stop and nerfed into oblivion", but you must take the context of this "goodness" into account. Just as food for thought: if the one good survivor perk was a single use resurrection of a dead survivor, this would be obviously too powerful and this couldn't possible stay in the game, nonwithstanding that it was "the first good survivor perk in years".
MFT is so extremely frustrating to play against, because the whole games design wasn't Made For This and way too many survivors get away with things that they shouldn't, just thanks to this 3%. Its no "ohhhh, they took THIS perk that only works in this and that situation and then worked for that situation to happen, thus outplaying me" or even a "ohhhh, they took this niche perk thats basically useless in 3 out of 4 games and now it worked like a charm", but its a perk thats so good, that 1/3 of the whole survivor population runs it non-stop and in the higher-tier games its not uncommon to see it 3 or even 4 times in the same game.
Just for fun, here are my own stats around MFT from my personal Nightlife account:
Perhaps I'm missing something in what you're trying to convey to me, but it looks a lot like your entire response to me is about MFT and not about Windows in any way at all beyond the first sentence.