jesterkind
jesterkind
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@ABAEX said:
when you play killer hit a deepwound then pick survivor up, eat a decisive strike then hit a DH.
you will know why.
That only happens if you're trying to tunnel or if the survivor successfully baits you into chasing them, though. Pretty easy to avoid in both cases.
To the wider topic, it definitely should be boosted back up to its old five second stun. Keep the other changes made to it, those were all fair, but the stun duration definitely needs to be longer or it won't even deter killers from tunnelling when it's used on them, let alone dissuade them from trying to tunnel in the first place.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568038#Comment_3568038
Abridged version of your whole point:
- How many hand holding do survivors need before we can start saying "You have enough tools to extend chases and second chances to not going down easily if you are good enough"?
- Yes.
That's it. That is your whole premise, and you are trying to come up with whatever you can think of to try to make it a valid point (it is a mental gymnastic because of your reasoning for why they won't slug, specially when many people have said that's what would happen as that is what happened and the main reason to nerf it, killers slugging people because they assume they use it, an those people using it with Unbreakable).
which is that we're talking about people being tunnelled. We're not talking about general chases
Oh, but we are. Before you can even be tunneled, you had to first go down at least one time already. And before you even go down that first time, you have a lot of tools already to make it so by the time the killer get you, 2-3 gens would get done. That's the thing. What you are asking is, again, having more safe nets on top of all that.
we're not asking for the game or for any perk to cover up mistakes that people make in the course of normal gameplay
Yes, you are. At this point, with all the second chances perks there is and the base mechanics already implemented in the game, you are. Simple as that. Also, "normal gameplay"?...
We're talking about DS specifically, even, the hardest anti-tunnel to try and weaponise.
Now, you mean, because it was precisely for that reason that it was nerfed. And even now, they do weaponise it in a more effective way that you are trying to make everyone believe and you know it. So, by that logic, making it stronger would only mean that they would weaponize it even more.
You as the killer can completely invalidate and ignore these perks by not tunnelling people
Except when the survivors force you to not ignore those perks and start to block you on loops when you are chasing somebody else, for example. We already talked about that.
If you choose to tunnel someone, there should be the risk that they have genuinely potent tools to make it not worth your time
Again, why? Why there should be that risk? Also, again, you are assuming that perks like DS or OTR are not doing their job of granting yet another second chance in case of being tunneled and making you not worth the time to keep chasing if you use well the chance they grant you.
otherwise why wouldn't every killer tunnel all the time?
Good question, why every killer isn't tunneling in all their matches right now if it is easy and beneficial as you claim to be? Even it being the most reasonable thing to do and the most effective strategy to follow in this game, why not every killer does it? Can it be that right now, with all the tools survivors have, including in game mechanics implemented for that sole purpose, it is not as easy and convenient as you are claiming it to be unless the survivor make it be? Because you said it yourself: "Good survivors are not tunneled as much".
It's fair to expect people in a PvP game to get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win.
Then problem solved! Good survivors make it not convenient and effective for killers to tunnel them according to you, so if you don't want to get tunneled just get good at the game, that's it. Nothing more to debate.
That should imply then
Oh, there's more? But there is nothing more to discuss, we already come to the logical and factual conclusion of this topic...
that we're giving them the reasonable space to do so, right?
No... unless you are meaning a separate practice mode, that would mean that you are exactly asking for the game to adapt to the unskilled population of the game, instead of expecting them getting good as in any other PvP game.
Being tunnelled is not normal gameplay
That is like saying "Gen rushing is not normal gameplay". Tunneling for a killer is doing your objective as fast as you can, because it is the most effective thing to do. By design, in this game, tunneling is the most normal and effective way to play, and even devs recognize that. That's your main problem, you are treating tunneling as a "problem to fix" when it is not something that need a fix in the first place unless you are talking about the extreme cases (known as "hard tunneling), and that has already being addressed.
it's explicitly starting a chase injured and in what is likely to be a bad area
And that is not normal gameplay because...? Are you implying that survivors need to be in perfect conditions and not in any disadvantage in any point of the match, or how in the hell that is something that don't fit inside "normal gameplay"?
That's not normal gameplay conditions to improve, because if you're unhooked and healed while the killer's chasing someone else, you should ideally be starting the next chase healthy and in a different part of the map that likely has more resources. That's breathing room that gives you more time to practice and improve, which is something most people are gonna require if they're going to get better.
So, you are saying that survivors should start every chase in the best conditions possible, or the game is punishing unskilled people, and that's why the game should guarantee that every single survivor can't be in any disadvantage ever.
Again, that's like saying that you should not be able to get killed in a FPS if you don't have any ammo left. That someone should not be able to do combos in a fighting game if you are not able to also do them. That someone should not be able to buy the orange and red streets on Monopoly as those are the most profitable streets and would put the rest of the player in a disadvantage. It's absurd, and it blows my mind that you even thought that is a valid and legit point to made about a PvP game.
Improvement comes from practice and experience. The guy that makes 25 kills in a row in CoD are not able to do it because he was always in the perfect conditions and in an advantageous point, but because he gained enough experience from suffering the consequences of not being skilled enough and developed the required game sense to overcome those odds against him.
Your logic is flawed, and you are not in the right here. You are just using that argument to try to have the reason after we already established that with the enough skill and game sense right now a survivor have enough tools to make downing him not an easy task already. In other words, you are moving the goalpost.
As you get better and better, you'll need that breathing room less and less, which is totally normal and how improvement works in every other game.
Even if you were right (which you are not, as we already established... can't wait for you to ignore it and keep it with your bogus arguments), how we control the "breathing room" we give everybody? How we control that the more experienced survivors don't abuse having that breathing room to get an unfair advantage? How we take away that "breathing room" when a survivor don't need it anymore?
The answer is simple: We don't, because we can't. And that's why you can't balance the game in any aspect thinking about the less skilled players.
And no, not every other game works that way. There is not any PvP game that give you any kind of training wheels, apart of what I already said: Ranked matchmaking, and an offline practice mode. So, again, if you want people to have a "safe space" to improve, ask for BHVR to add killer bots so they can practice offline, not for the game to be balanced and adapted to those that doesn't want to gain the experience and develop a good game sense and want the game to do the heavy lifting for them.
I feel like you're really dancing around the issue of tunnelling being a bad thing we should want to fix, honestly.
Maybe because first, it was never the point of the post, it was about buffing DS so you have yet another thing covering even more for your mistakes. Second, I see what you are doing, but I already said it so I would say it again: Tunneling is not something that should be "fixed" and there is already mechanics implemented to discourage it (specially the more extreme form of it) without taking away the possibility of doing it if the survivors mess up and make it convenient for the killer, as it should be.
Now, you can already throw a fallacy and make the point that I'm just against buffing DS because I want to tunnel in peace, even if I suggested a more logical way of buffing the perk so is more useful without it being yet another abusable hand holding tool for survivors.
You keep drifting out into talking about general concepts like people getting good or having their mistakes covered for, while completely avoiding that we aren't talking about normal gameplay, we're talking about tunnelling.
You are the one that keep drifting away from the main points of the argument, that keep insisting to ignore the fact that before tunneling can even happen other "normal gameplay" things had being in place, that there is already enough tools to discourage and make tunneling someone not easy or convenient, and keep saying that tunneling isn't "normal gameplay" when by design it is the most logical and effective strategy to follow in this game as a killer specially in this haste + endurance meta with gens times as low as they are: Take out a survivor as soon as possible.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that someone used as an argument for buffing the perk a gif showing an Ada not making the right call as an example of the perk not being useful, when it obviously did it's job as a second chance perk that you can use on top of your other second chances and chasing perks in case you are tunneled, but that never was designed to deter anyone from tunneling or guarantee you a free escape from getting hooked.
You want to make the perk more useful? Again, make it so it doesn't permanently deactivate unless you used it or until the EGC. That way, if you are not tunneled in your first unhook, you can have that second-second chance in your second still. That's a buff that isn't meant so the perk keep covering up for your mistake even after you have used up all the other safety nets you have available. But that's not what people are asking for in this post, including you.
The bottom line here is that tunnelling is still an issue in this game, both in terms of balance and in terms of fun factor.
No, it is not. Even less with the current Haste + Endurance meta, the addition of the AFC mechanic, and gen times being as low as before. Hard tunneling was a problem, but it was addressed with the basekit BT, and even more now with the AFC. And again, the devs themselves recognize that tunneling is the best strategy to follow for a killer, and that's why they implemented things to make it inconvenient without removing it completely from the game.
In other words, again, "hard tunneling" has already being addressed and doesn't need any more "fixes".
That's something you seem reluctant to acknowledge here, so it bears repeating.
Because it was never the point of the argument until you make it to be. And the only thing you are repeating are your fallacies. In this case and about all the "tunneling is a problem", a try to make a loaded question fallacy.
Well, I don't have any problem to say that tunneling is not a problem, as I already did. "Hard tunneling" was a problem, solved already, and there is already gameplay solutions the survivors can do to deal with a killer trying to do the best strategy to follow and take them out of the game ASAP. That, and like I said, I play survivor 50/50 right now, and I have not seeing so much tunneling done to anyone as many of you claim.
And even with this, my point of the real argument here still stands: DS is a second-second chance tool that does it job of giving you the chance to get away from an otherwise totally lost situation. What you do with that chance, it's on you. And pretending it to be buffed it's you wanting for it to cover up your mistakes, and you even recognized that when you said it would make sense "it'll cover for some degree of poor play".
There is already enough things covering for poor play in the game that survivors can use before they even have the need to use DS. So, again, at that point, if you mess up and waste your second-second chance, it's on you.
Also, DS does not "work fine". It's really weak and requires you to already be in a strong tile when you go down because you get very little distance.
Yes, it works fine. And you have 10 seconds of haste and a free endurance on unhook to get to that strong tile where you would be able to waste more time of the killer and make use of your DS effectively. See how is you who doesn't want to acknowledge that even before you have the chance to use DS, there is other "normal gameplay" things that happens?
And after all this, keep on with your cherry picking, your ignoring of facts and probably a couple of ad hominems of how I'm someone that defend tunneling and that's why I don't want DS buffed added to the list of fallacies you used, even when I already explained everything in detail on why DS doesn't need a buff or tunneling is not the problem you and others are claiming it to be, even less now. I'm done, say what you want.
Respectfully, I think it's clear this conversation is over. At this stage you're not even reading + responding to full sentences, let alone full arguments.
For the record, though, because I would like to make this clear, I have not once resorted to ad hominems or attacks. I even asked you at one point to clarify a position that seemed like it was unfair, and you did not. I've been above board and respectful this entire time.
Have a nice day, man.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568038#Comment_3568038
My issue with buffing ds, is that there *needs* to be punishment for survivor aggressive plays (insta unhooks before killer even has time to leave the hook).
The point of hooking is to create pressure by forcing 1-2 other people to be busy with save + chase, if you insta unhook that pressure is deleted and the only way to get it back is to effectively "tunnel" hence forcing the 2 hookstate person to play more passively , which essentially turns the team less effecient.
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I'd honestly rather see killers encouraged to *not tunnel* via benefits rather than punishment for doing the correct match winning play.
Give killers a basekit version of BBQ/Alien instinct so they feel compelled to "get the value".
Grim embrace is also a good candidate for a non-tunneling reward.
Some kind of basekit haste+undetectable bonus for hooking survivors in a non-tunneling streak, so killers will want to not tunnel to get the benefit.
The point is there's plenty of routes that can be taken besides turning DS into such a powerful perk that it becomes a *mental 5th perk* causing everyone to wait 60s even if the survivor doesn't have it.
I think you can still generate a lot of pressure there even if you can't pick up and hook the person with DS, though. You could just slug them and go chase the unhooker, that's still generating a lot of pressure; one in chase, one incapacitated minimum, and if the slugged survivor doesn't have Unbreakable that's one coming to pick them up too. If they do have UB, great, you just got it out of the way and they won't have it again.
Encouragement not to tunnel isn't a bad idea, but considering that not tunnelling is already the stronger tactic in most cases, it's clearly not enough on its own. There needs to be push and pull, carrot and stick, for the problem to be fixed.
Improving those perks and maybe adding some kind of basekit bonus wouldn't be a bad idea at all and I'd definitely support something like that, but it has to come alongside making anti-tunnel tools strong enough that they actually matter in a killer's decisionmaking process.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567893#Comment_3567893
All your arguments lost any meaning the moment you recognized that all what survivors need to not get tunneled is getting good. From that point on, whatever you say is just a try to buff a perk that works fine so it keep covering up more mistakes.
I would try to do a more elaborated response, but obviously you would keep with your mental gymnastics (killers would not slug more because it is not as "winning as picking up and hook"? When have somebody said that a perk should not be stronger than not having a perk, when we were talking about perks vs mechanics?), not giving any arguments for your claims (why should "anti-tunnel" perks and mechanics work together with each other? Why should you be able to stack them up after having a full chase of haste and endurance, getting hooked, and another chase where you go down again?) and cherry picking or ignoring what was already said (It would not "deter" killers, it would force every killer to assume everybody has it just like happened with DH, and that was a super healthy way of playing the game of course). So, at this point, why try.
but it's not a fair expectation for everyone
Wrong. It is exactly the expectation for everyone playing a PvP game, that they would get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win. No other PvP game gives any kind of "breathing room" to people starting, apart from ranked matchmaking to pair him with people of the same skill level (something that the game already has) and a Practice mode. DbD is the first PvP game I ever see where asking for the game to cover up for the mistakes of those players who doesn't are good enough (and don't forget the solos... Won't somebody please think of the SoloQs!!!?) is a legit thing to do.
If you are so worried about the "less skilled" players, ask BHVR to add killer bots so they can practice before going to the online wild, not ask for any more safe nets in form of buffs to perfectly functional perks that only makes good players stronger and start abusing it, the role more dull to play as it gets easier and easier, and the other role more frustrating because you are losing to the survivor's perks and game mechanics, not their skill... apart of all the others problem that this specific case will bring.
Simple as that. And before you say it, if you really play the game "casually and just for fun" you won't mind losing at all, so you won't care about the balance of the game or how strong the perks are.
I really feel like you're losing sight of the most important part of this conversation, which is that we're talking about people being tunnelled. We're not talking about general chases, we're not asking for the game or for any perk to cover up mistakes that people make in the course of normal gameplay, we are talking about someone specifically being targeted while they are much more vulnerable than the default.
That is relevant, because we're not talking about general chase perks, we're talking about anti-tunnel. We're talking about DS specifically, even, the hardest anti-tunnel to try and weaponise. You as the killer can completely invalidate and ignore these perks by not tunnelling people. If you choose to tunnel someone, there should be the risk that they have genuinely potent tools to make it not worth your time, otherwise why wouldn't every killer tunnel all the time? That won't lead to a reduction in tunnelling, obviously.
I'll briefly address the things in your brackets there, too, just to be clear:
- When I refer to people not slugging, I don't understand what the confusion is or why this counts as "mental gymnastics". You said killers would slug more, I said I don't think they would. That's a pretty straightforward claim and counter-claim situation, so if I'm missing something, absolutely let me know and I'll be happy to clarify.
- For the perk vs mechanics thing, you're the one who asked why the perk should be stronger and more forgiving than the basekit mechanic- and the answer is because it's a perk, it's something you're bringing to get a benefit above and beyond what's available to you in the basekit. It's fair for the basekit to be minor and heavily reliant on skill expression, but the tools you bring to do that job should be better than that, because you're giving up a perk slot for it. Otherwise why bother running the perk?
- Anti-tunnel should work together and stack so that you can actually make yourself an unviable chase. Right now the killer can either hit you straight away to clear your Endurance, or they can count to ten. Neither of those are enough of an investment that tunnelling that survivor isn't worth it, so if the multiple perks involved would work together, those killers would think twice before tunnelling that survivor, making the anti-tunnel actually effective.
- Why are you referring to Haste and Endurance before the survivor is hooked? Those aren't anti-tunnel and most of them (Endurance, anyway, less so Haste) need to be nerfed anyway, they're not relevant here.
- That's literally what "deterring" means, so maybe this is a language issue? When I say killers would be deterred from tunnelling, what I mean is that they would make the choice not to tunnel because they either suspect a survivor has anti-tunnel tools like DS, or because they're assuming everyone has it. That's exactly what "deterrent" means and it is in fact what I want, it is healthier for killers to avoid recently unhooked survivors and chase someone else.
It's fair to expect people in a PvP game to get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win. That should imply, then, that we're giving them the reasonable space to do so, right? Being tunnelled is not normal gameplay, it's explicitly starting a chase injured and in what is likely to be a bad area. That's not normal gameplay conditions to improve, because if you're unhooked and healed while the killer's chasing someone else, you should ideally be starting the next chase healthy and in a different part of the map that likely has more resources. That's breathing room that gives you more time to practice and improve, which is something most people are gonna require if they're going to get better. As you get better and better, you'll need that breathing room less and less, which is totally normal and how improvement works in every other game.
I feel like you're really dancing around the issue of tunnelling being a bad thing we should want to fix, honestly. You keep drifting out into talking about general concepts like people getting good or having their mistakes covered for, while completely avoiding that we aren't talking about normal gameplay, we're talking about tunnelling.
The bottom line here is that tunnelling is still an issue in this game, both in terms of balance and in terms of fun factor. That's something you seem reluctant to acknowledge here, so it bears repeating.
Also, DS does not "work fine". It's really weak and requires you to already be in a strong tile when you go down because you get very little distance.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567714#Comment_3567714
1.- I already told you. Survivor get unhooked, has DS, he starts body blocking the killer to force him to break chase even when he is away chasing someone else. It's not an uncommon thing, specially when confronting a bully squad.
2.- What are you talking about? I'm not even understanding what you mean here. Eitherway, if you get hit with the free BT in place, you get an speed boost from the hit and from the haste it gives you. Enough to gain a lot of distance. The same with any other haste + endurance combo. And if the killer only have to count to 10 to get you, again, most than probably you did something to make it so easy for him. Also, and again, even the devs said that the anti-tunneling system never was intended to guarantee you to be safe.
3.- You still fail to explain why it should be as you are saying. Because again, they would not deter killers from stopping tunneling because that's not the main function of the perk either way. In any case, it would be back to slugging everybody because killers would assume everyone would be using DS. Super healthy for everyone. And again, you have just ignored everything else I said about the "healthiness" of your claims. Also, by your own logic, just use OTR instead, as you yourself said that is a better second chance perk in case of tunneling.
4.- So, what you are saying is that good survivors are tunneled less because they are good, have game sense, and enough experience and skill to not get downed again so easily? Uh...
5.- If you had DS weaponized against you, then why are you asking "how" survivors weaponize it? I'm confused. And again, it is not and never was intended as a deterrent for tunneling. It is a second chance perk that gives you the opportunity to not get hooked two times in a row, which it does pretty well, and what you do with that free escape chance is on you. So, and again, asking for it to be buffed so it is "the anti-tunneling it has to be" is just an excuse to have it cover your mistakes even more than it already does. People still miss the power trip it was playing survivor in the day and want it back, as the current power trip is not enough as some killers can still do something in the game. Simple as that.
6.- Again, in your TL;DR says that it should be "stronger and forgiving than a basekit perk", but you fail to yet again explain why. You also failed to explain why the game should "give lesser skilled players more breathing room", because as I said, making it even easier for them would means the reverse as there would be no need to develop any game sense at all.
In other words, you claim a lot of things, but fail to give a justification for those claims other than "Because it should be" while ignoring every fact against it.
1: As I went over, that's just bodyblocking as it is now. You down them and move on. That's kinda annoying, sure, but it's far from actually giving the survivors value and it's definitely not a reason to avoid buffing DS.
2: I was referring to your comments about there being many sources of anti-tunnel/"second chance". That's technically true, but they don't actually work together and often work against one another, so survivors don't actually have that many layers of protection if they're being tunnelled. They just have the basekit stuff, and then maybe one additional perk-- but OTR is easy to disable (the Endurance, anyway), and DS isn't good enough to do its job, so they don't really have much at all. Yes, there's the 10 seconds of Endurance and Haste, but tunnelling is observably still a problem. After all, it isn't always your fault if you got hooked in a deadzone. If you went down, chances are good those resources were used in that chase, right?
3: Of course it would deter killers from tunnelling? If survivors had genuinely strong anti-tunnel perks, and those perks were reasonably common (which they would be if they were worth running), that would make most killers think twice about tunnelling someone. This was technically the case prior to 6.1.0, though I do think some people have rose-tinted glasses about that. You'd avoid chasing someone because there's a very good chance you'd eat a huge stun even if you downed them again, that's a deterrent against tunnelling.
I'd be fine with more slugging, but I don't think that is what killers would do, because that wouldn't be as game-winning as picking them up + hooking them. There's a lot of perks that counter slugging, and teammates can also counter it by coming and picking them up while you're occupied. That's fine. Also, I never said OTR was better, I said it needed to be less easy to disable. That's me saying it's too weak.
4: Yes. That's what I'm saying. Good survivors and the good killers who face them wouldn't need to worry as much about buffed DS because tunnelling is already a losing strategy against very skilled loopers. Tunnelling is the problem that it is largely below that skill level, which is the entire point and is an issue well worth addressing.
5: I'm asking you how current DS would be weaponised. I definitely had it weaponised against me when that was a thing you could do, but after they introduced the Conspicuous Actions nerf (before it was called that, anyway), that became dramatically harder. It's not impossible to try and weaponise DS in its current form, but it kinda requires the killer to not pay attention and mess up for it to work. It's a healthy design now and can safely be buffed without worrying about it being used offensively.
6: I honestly didn't think I had to justify that first statement? A perk should obviously be stronger than not having a perk, that's the entire point of bringing them. As for giving lesser skilled players more breathing room, expecting them to get better when they're being tunnelled is kind of like throwing someone into the deep end so they'll learn to swim; some can do it, but it's not a fair expectation for everyone. Lesser skilled players would have more opportunity to improve if they had time to reset and begin chases from healthy again, instead of being immediately chased while injured in an area that probably doesn't have many resources if they went down there to begin with.
I'm doing my best to give my reasoning here.
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Trapper.
Face of the game, iconic, really fun to play when things actually align... and if they're starting from scratch with Trapper in mind and all their experience making DBD 1, maybe they'll take some care to help future-proof him better this time around.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567768#Comment_3567768
Yeah, saves 100% should count, no doubt.
My issue is that pallet blinds / clicky flashlight is dictionary definition of "conspicuous" (attracting attention to oneself), even if we don't go by dictionary, we still have the component that you're taking an "offensive action" against the killer.
I'm not sure I agree, actually. Conspicuous Actions in this context are typically defined as actions that progress the game without directly being in chase - the idea being, if you have the freedom to do these actions, either you aren't being tunnelled to begin with or the killer's nearby and you should be punishable if they notice you.
By that definition, clicking the flashlight and getting blinds at pallets are the opposite, they are actions you can only do in chase. Either you're doing them because the killer already decided to tunnel you, in which case everything's going as it should, or you're doing them because you want to bait the killer into chasing you, in which case the killer can just... ignore you.
Saves should count because you aren't being chased if you're in a position to do them, but if you're getting a blind at a pallet, it pretty heavily implies you're the one that dropped it and the killer is chasing you.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567753#Comment_3567753
Original post already explained the point.
Survivors shouldn't be able to weaponize anti tunnel mechanics and perks to punish the killer for not tunneling.
If youre using basekit bt to bodyblock for the unhooker, youre weaponizing the anti tunnel mechanic, then if you get downed again, you pop DS and get outta jail for free.
Flashlight needs to follow the other item rules in that self healing/ repairing a gen counts as a conspicuous action therefore Flashlight use should also count especially considering you have a 60s window where you're able to attempt flashy saves with no real punishment.
Pallets follow the same logic, you're able to get a pallet save with no threat of punishment in a 60s window, at the *very minimum* pallet saves should count as conspicuous and disable anti tunnel perks.
I think it'd be clearer what you mean if you were to say "getting a save" should be a conspicuous action, which I would actually agree with as a statement.
Clicking the flashlight would be flashlight use, and that should hardly disable your DS or anything. For the other items, it's their associated action - healing and repairing - that counts as a conspicuous action, they disable DS whether the item is in play or not. If you shine your flashlight into the sky, you aren't progressing the game, but if you get a save you definitely are.
Randomly clicking or just like, blinding at a pallet, those shouldn't be conspicuous actions, but saving someone else absolutely should be.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567678#Comment_3567678
I said what I said and I keep saying it. It was you who said that I meant that every single hooked survivor was because poor play when I said that, tho. So stop the mental gymnastics.
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: All of that is in play and tunnelling is still a problem. [...] DS being stronger would be a healthy change, because it doesn't do anything unless the killer chooses to tunnel
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: Survivors use DS as a tool to block the killer and protect other survivors. Make it stronger, and they would use it as a bully tool even more. So, it won't be a healthy change, but the reverse. Also, adding more safe nets to the game would only make play survivor feel more dull, as the game is doing all the heavy lifting for you without the need of developing any game sense, and would make play killer more frustrating as you are going against that survivor's perks and the game mechanics, not their skill. I won't call that precisely "healthy" for anybody.
Also, your "effort put in it" argument is bogus. As I said, with 10 seconds of free haste + endurance + survivors own perks, the effort the killer needs to put to tunnel that survivors is exactly the how difficult that survivor makes for the killer to down him again. The unhooked survivor can get to a pallet or a TL to make another full chase again, other survivor can help him by body blocking the killer and force him to break chase, etc. And if you play killer, you should know that.
Nobody is suggesting that the game should cover for survivors making poor plays in general. [...] Should killers only be punished for tunnelling if the survivor they try to tunnel is more skilled than they are?
Yes you are, when again, there is plenty of second chances and safe nets for survivors and you want yet another one when he goes down after using all the others.
And at this point, with all the second chances you have even before getting to the point of getting tunneled being a possibility, yes. Not that they aren't already punished in all cases by, again, making it more costly chasing the unhooked survivor than the unhooker, but if the unhooked survivors is not skilled enough to get use of their free gifts or make the dumb decision of staying 4 seconds blocking the killer to use them as a protection hit tool, it is the survivor's fault and can't blame anyone but himself for it. Get unhooked, get the hell out of there as fast as you can to the closest loop, and if the killer has followed you start looping him again. Not have the enough game sense to do that? Get punished for it.
Again, you have failed to justify in any moment why the game should cover for your mistakes. You just keep saying that it should, supporting it with fallacious arguments and trying to shift the argument to another path (the main point of the argument never was if "killers should only be punished against skilled survivors"), but never explained why.
[...] and the killer being free to tunnel them out because the current anti-tunnel implementation is flawed and only works for the already-skilled severely cuts down how much they can attempt that practice
Again, why? How if even tunneling is being done in so much games (I play 50/50 right now, and I can count with one hand the times I had being tunneled out of a game) it affects negatively the gain of game sense or skill? Wouldn't be the other way, as survivors being tunneled every game would have more chances to practice against it and get better and better at countering it?
No, because in that situation we're self-selecting for killers that are skilled, they're probably not tunnelling anyway and they definitely wouldn't tunnel players who they know are skilled.
First, you are assuming that every killer that tunnels is not a good killer after accusing me of saying that every survivor that goes down is because they are bad. Funny.
Second, again, DS is not an "anti-tunnel" mechanic, starting with the killer inability to even know a suvivor have the perk. It is a second (third? Maybe forth depending on the build) chance perk in the case the killer tunnel you. So, even if it is stronger, it won't stop people from tunneling. So, by your own logic, there is nothing to change here.
The only reason that it worked as a "deterrent" for tunneling was the same one as DH was a "deterrent" for not hitting a survivor the moment you had the chance: Because it was the most used perk present in almost every game, so you would assume that everybody has it.
Third, like I said earlier, there is survivors that weaponize DS by body blocking the killer and forcing him to break chase or lose more time already, knowing that even if the killer tries to grab them they can get away. In fact, you can argue that most of the people that use the perk this days is for the sole reason of weaponizing it.
So, again, funny that you said that and even funnier that it never happened to you taking in count you claim to be a killer main.
I'll try and condense my responses here and number them for clarity.
1: First, you say that people will use DS as a tool to bully the killer. How? Either they're trying to bodyblock with their basekit BT, in which case they get downed and you move on to their unhooker, or they aren't doing that specifically and they're chasing you down without performing any Conspicuous Actions. Both of those are a net positive for the killer, not a negative, so I'm not understanding this argument.
2: There's a couple of things to say about the other tools you're referring to at multiple points here, but the ones that survivors currently have access to largely all revolve around Endurance, which means you can't use them all to try and make sure you're at a tile. If you're not directly adjacent to something to use, and the killer hits you immediately, you often don't have that much to work with- let alone if it's one of the killers that can completely bypass the Endurance effect to begin with. It's a lot better than it used to be, but if it's meant to be a reason not to buff DS that heavily implies it should be enough as it is, and it's not. Tunnelling is still too easy, because all a killer really has to do is either count to ten, or hit a survivor if they don't hear injured sounds, and they're effectively back to square one with no protection.
I would support changing this as well/instead, of course. The post-unhook protection not being Endurance and not putting you in Deep Wounds would be a pretty huge step forward, not least because it could be coded to be more punishing on killer powers that typically bypass the Endurance. It would be one thing if survivors actually had multiple tools they could use, but they don't, they have to choose which ones because they often invalidate each other.
3: I'd thought I had supported my claim that it should help even when survivors make mistakes, but I'll go into more depth here to make sure we're on the same page for what I'm talking about: If a survivor brings an anti-tunnel perk, one of only four slots they can use period, that perk should be stronger than the basekit mechanics- which are largely based around skill expression. If anti-tunnel perks were strong enough to be used (or were harder to immediately invalidate, as OTR currently needs to be), that would deter killers from feeling completely safe to tunnel someone out who isn't super skilled in chase. That would mean less tunnelling, which would be healthier for everyone.
4: To be clear, I never suggested that all killers who tunnel are bad, I said very skilled killers know tunnelling is a niche tool against actually good survivors. It's often not worth it, and will almost always pale in comparison to spreading your pressure instead-- again, assuming a very good killer going against a team of all four very good survivors. You could argue that level of skill isn't fairly representative of the full game, but that's kinda my point: Tunnelling is so impactful and problematic beneath that level, which is a far larger sample size.
5: For your very last comment, of course I've had DS weaponised against me, I've been playing for a while at this point. What I can confidently say, though, is that I never had DS weaponised against me (in a way that wasn't my fault for not paying attention, anyway) since they added the Conspicuous Actions deactivation requirement. There was a period of time where it disabled on those actions but had a 5 second timer, and it was very hard to weaponise in that period. The only reason people run it now is to try (and fail! because it's bad and designed such that it's hard to do that with!) to weaponise it, but that's because it isn't useful for actually being an anti-tunnel deterrent unless you're already in a strong tile when you go down.
TL;DR: DS only does something if you tunnel or if the survivor is throwing, it should be stronger and more forgiving than basekit mechanics because it's a perk, anti-tunnel tools are weak and have anti-synergy with one another, anti-tunnel tools being stronger would deter killers from chasing any survivor immediately post-unhook which gives lesser skilled players more breathing room to improve. It's a net improvement for everyone, save for players who want tunnelling to be an easy shortcut to value.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567647#Comment_3567647
Maybe because that Ada was making a poor play and someone used it as an argument to buff DS because it is not effective, when you can clearly see that DS give her another chance and she made the worst decision she could make in that situation and wasted it?
But as you was referring to that clip, let's points some things: First, in that exact situation the killer would follow her still, because two survivors were down and one hooked. Second, with the path she took, again, it would not matter what killer it was, she would go down again soon after.
Now, you say that DS should have covered for her poor decision there. So the question is: Why? What is your justification, even when the game already give you 10 seconds of haste and one free hit, when you can have DS + three other perks that can cover your "poor plays" already during the match, including adding more haste and more hits on top of the free ones you have and still going down two times in a row, for DS to keep covering your "poor plays" after all of that.
Because that's my real point, that the game already have enough safe nets for survivors to be asking for another one in the form of a perk buff. So, again, explain why it should be even more another chance than it is when there is plenty of seconds chances already.
And yes, I would have an issue if yet another perk or mechanic cover even more for survivors poor decisions. The basekit BT not only already discourage tunneling by making chasing the unhooked survivors most costly than chasing the unhooker, it is a fair mechanic precisely because is not a guaranteed save for the survivors, it's just give you the chance to get to safety after being unhooked and you still have to make the right calls to get use of it (and even devs said it is how it should be). And spoilers: Using it to make a protection hit is not one of them.
In conclusion: No, the game should not cover for survivors making poor plays and not having the minimum game sense to be good at the game. At least, no more that already does.
...So you agree it was you who brought up the notion of poor play? I'm not fighting that concept here, I'm perfectly content to debate with that in play, but it was kinda weird for you to turn it back around on me like it was my framing to begin with.
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: All of that is in play and tunnelling is still a problem. It's still possible for a killer to gain undue amounts of value considering how much effort they put in versus how much effort the survivor has to put in to counter it. Tunnelling has not yet been fixed, and it still a problem in the game.
DS being stronger would be a healthy change, because it doesn't do anything unless the killer chooses to tunnel - or unless the survivor tries to weaponise it, but considering that's a massive win for the killer, I think we can safely discard it as a possibility for now. It's not super relevant here, I'm sure you'll agree.
There's another thing I kind of want to draw attention to here, which is your last statement. Nobody is suggesting that the game should cover for survivors making poor plays in general. When I brought that up, I was referring specifically and solely to Decisive Strike, so the actual thing being discussed is: Should killers only be punished for tunnelling if the survivor they try to tunnel is more skilled than they are?
I would argue that's already the case, personally. If the survivor is noticeably skilled at looping, they're already not the ones tunnelled off hook that frequently. DS as it is now only punishes killers for trying to tunnel very skilled survivors, and that's redundant. DS, specifically, probably should punish you for trying to tunnel the weak link, because that's where tunnelling is at its most problematic right now.
It's all well and good to say survivors should improve, but that only comes with practice, and the killer being free to tunnel them out because the current anti-tunnel implementation is flawed and only works for the already-skilled severely cuts down how much they can attempt that practice.
Let's say that DS was improved to be a 5-second stun again. Does this affect skilled killers who are facing skilled survivors? No, because in that situation we're self-selecting for killers that are skilled, they're probably not tunnelling anyway and they definitely wouldn't tunnel players who they know are skilled. It'll only affect killers who choose to tunnel players they perceive as weaker, which... is what anti-tunnel should do, surely? It should be a deterrent from chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked, and considering we're specifically talking about DS, there's not even any concern about weaponising it for bodyblocking like there is with Endurance.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567628#Comment_3567628
It was you who said "poor play". Good survivors with good game sense doesn't makes poor plays, and if they does at least they would have the enough experience to know they made the wrong call in what they have done.
Who would you referring when arguing that DS should "cover for your poor plays", then? The looping gods that can loop the killer without any problem and are not affected by any mindgame you can pull off?
Nope, that was you- maybe not in those exact words, but that's exactly what you were referring to in that Ada clip. Poor pathing, poor decisions, poor play.
You're also the only one in this conversation who's been referring to being hooked at all as poor play, which seems suspect to me. Obviously players who are playing well and not making huge mistakes are still going to get hooked eventually, so that very clearly doesn't count as poor play, therefore DS won't be covering for "more" poor play as you put it- just the poor play immediately after it triggers.
You ask who I'm referring to when I say poor play, and I'll again point you to that Ada clip. Is it the end of the world if an anti-tunnel perk means that this specific player, the one you could otherwise count on being easy to down, is a less desirable target immediately after they're unhooked?
I'd argue that if anti-tunnel worked, that's exactly what it should mean. You avoid chasing people immediately after they're unhooked even if they make poor decisions and would otherwise be easy to down. Would you have an issue with that outcome?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567605#Comment_3567605
To cover for more poor play, you mean? Because I remember you that for you to even have the chance to use DS, I should have down you two times already.
So, again, you can have more speed and more health states on top of the 10 seconds of both things for free you have on unhook, I down you two times even with all that... and you want for the game to keep covering your bad plays?
When will be the time to say "No, if you still going down is on you, get better" then? When survivors get a 300% speed bonus and two extra Endurances when the killer M1 them? When will be the time for survivors to suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions without the game or their perks covering every single mistake they made for them?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567611#Comment_3567611
It is not to discourage tunneling, as the killer can't know that you have it. It is to give you a chance to avoid get hooked again in the case the killer tunnels you. What you do with that chance, again, is on you.
I'm not sure I'm following. I have to assume you aren't implying that a survivor being hooked at all means they must necessarily be playing badly, right?
Could you clarify before I answer? I don't want to misinterpret your position.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567597#Comment_3567597
Running in a straight line without even trying to dodge or look back? Of course it would happen. Hell, she would have being downed again soon after no matter the killer with that pathing.
But again, she had plenty of options there more fitting for the situation that just making it easy for the Deathslinger to down her again. So yes, survivor's fault, and I won't say skill issue but more like lack of game sense.
Considering that Decisive Strike only activates in a scenario that we want to be weaker for the killer, wouldn't it make sense to allow it to be strong enough that it'll cover for some degree of poor play on the survivor side?
Otherwise we're basically just saying "git gud" as the solution for tunnelling, and I don't want to assume that's your actual position.
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You shouldn't view tunnelling as good and wanted, certainly, but you really shouldn't view tunnelling as targeted harassment, oh my god.
Tunnelling is a tactic often used because it can be the easiest shortcut to value. That is the lens that it should be viewed through, and that lens lends itself well to understanding what should be done about it; it should be weakened and it should have fair counterplay, but it shouldn't be removed outright, both because it can be a valid tactic and because any attempt at removing it would lead to some nasty unintended consequences for killers playing fairly.
To the topic: Buff the DS stun timer back up to five seconds and then survivors will have a pretty reasonable spread of tools to use against tunnelling. I don't think it'd fix the problem outright but it'd definitely be a good next step.
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I do! A friend of mine got me the Huntress hoodie a little while ago, and it's pretty high quality.
I've misplaced it over the summer, but I'll be hunting it down now that it's getting colder for sure.
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Endurance stacking shouldn't be a thing, they should just change the post-unhook protection to not be Endurance and not put you in Deep Wounds. That'd let people stack anti-tunnel but would be much harder to abuse.
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I think void-touched skins would probably be too much as a P100 reward. BHVR themselves have acknowledged that they don't want to push anyone into undertaking that grind if that player doesn't already want to, because it's a long and often frustrating/unfun kind of grind, and I think a lot more players would absolutely think "I want that skin, I'm going to get this character to P100" if something that sick was behind the grind.
That being said, some unique charm with a void theme would be kinda cool, and appropriate for the Entity having milked them of everything they have. Not sure exactly what it would look like, maybe some perk-esque simplified rendition of the character with the appropriate colours and such?
Few people care about charms at all, so the amount of people who'll think "I want that charm, so I will grind for P100" is probably pretty low. Avoids the scenario BHVR want to avoid, but rewards the people who do undertake that grind with a little something.
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I don't think that a debuff is the right way to go, because that would probably be too punishing overall.
Rather, I'd look at the source of the issue. In your examples, you highlight specifically losing three generators in your first chase, and there are only one real reason that would happen if your chase is reasonably fast: The survivors spawned spread out. This, in my opinion, is the single reason that the killer early game can feel so impossible at times, though it must be mentioned that toolboxes make this even worse.
If we were to see an update that contained both a pretty substantial rework to toolboxes and the change "survivors now spawn in groups of either two or four", these issues would be fixed overnight. Survivors who spawn together and spread out are spending some of the time they're trying to gain back travelling to a different generator, but survivors who spawn spread out just get gifted that efficiency for free.
Survivors shouldn't be punished for making the right decision and pressuring multiple generators at once, but they also should be required to actually make that decision to begin with instead of being given it on a platter as they spawn in.
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If the survivors are in the void to traverse the map or to create ghosts, that is when you as a killer gain value from going in there and stopping them. I'm pretty sure the sound cue you can hear at random points in the map corresponds to survivors entering the void, and if they're injured you can see them become Broken on your HUD.
I agree that the time efficiency is something they should look at for next year, but it's not true that engaging with the event mechanics as killer automatically means you lose. You can enter the void at the same time as survivors, and you can use the overworld deposit rifts to get a pretty substantial Haste effect. The only time you're throwing by engaging with the event mechanics is if you go into the void alone, and even then, that's only true if you do it at the wrong times.
Sometimes I read the forums and I wonder what the difference is between me and everyone else, because I as a killer am having a ton of fun and my games are noticeably less sweaty. Is it region? MMR? Attitude? I don't know what the difference is, but I don't think it's fair to assume everyone's lying, so there must be something.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566555#Comment_3566555
People do realize what they were talking about, it's more they're pointing out the hypocrisy of the statement.
If they understood what BHVR were talking about, they'd understand there is no hypocrisy to point out. They're completely different concepts that don't overlap or contradict.
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Care to elaborate?
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Why do people keep insisting their answer about prestige rewards has anything to do with FOMO...
They literally just used the words "missing out", they weren't actually talking about the FOMO marketing tactic when they gave that answer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566511#Comment_3566511
How is this event fun for killers? “The time efficiency isn’t there” is just a nice way of saying “complete waste of time”.
And killers needing to deal with even more additional health states (endurance) is the supreme opposite of fun.
The time efficiency isn't there unless the survivors are already there, is what I should've said. Then killers get to benefit and have fun with the new mechanics. Entering a void with no survivors in it probably isn't worth your time unless you really have a plan, and that is something that could be improved, but it hardly makes this event a failure for the killer side. I mean, there's still the overworld deposits which are worth your time and provide a benefit that outstrips their time investment, if nothing else.
I agree Endurance shouldn't be part of this, but it's not as though it's omnipresent or as though killers get nothing. That is, again, a flaw, not a reason for considering it a failure.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566503#Comment_3566503
This year’s anniversary event is an example of a perfect event. I felt like it was worth the time and effort to collect the anniversary event objects, regardless if I was killer or survivor, because the event powers were good enough to be worth the time sink to get the event powers.
The reward killers get for releasing spirits is such a bad joke, and isn’t worth the time and effort. And the fact that survivors get the most powerful survivor status effect (endurance), but killers only get undetectable (instead of inflicting exposed), is also a bad joke.
"Bad joke"? Dude, it's nowhere near that bad. I agree it could use some improvements for next year, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here- it's still a fun and impressive event with very neat new mechanics.
You still get Haste and Undetectable for bothering to awaken the spirit guy. I agree the time efficiency isn't quite there, that should be improved, but I think you're being way too quick to write this off as a failure when it's really just a little flawed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566421#Comment_3566421
You said there wasn’t much else BHVR could do to make the event less sweaty.
If the event actually gave game advantages worth the time and effort to do the event, then it would make the games less sweaty. Because right now, the optimum strategy is “try to ignore the event more than your opponents are ignoring the event”
I mean, if they gave heavier game advantages, wouldn't that just be a different kind of sweaty?
At a certain point, if you don't want to engage with the mechanics unless they heavily improve your chance of winning, that's on you and not on the event, right?
Not to say I don't think there could be improvements, mind you, I do think there could be a bit more encouragement for both parties to enter the void portals so that little contesting-the-ghost minigame is more frequent, but the ultimate reason for engaging should be for the fun of doing so (and to finish challenges for the cosmetics, naturally) more than to try and win.
Even so, I also think it's very, very worth mentioning that previous events were significantly worse than this for actually encouraging sweaty play. The worst you could say about this one is that it's neutral, the previous ones actually encouraged genrushing to get out ASAP so you didn't lose out on getting cosmetics that match. This event is a gigantic improvement over those.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566385#Comment_3566385
The event should make the event mechanics useful, beyond tome rewards. If a killer spends time in the void realm, but zero survivors are there because they are busy repairing generators, then the killer just threw the match, because releasing a spirit is so useless for the killer that it’s not worth the time spent in the void realm.
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm saying here...?
Though, to answer it anyway, I think the idea was that both parties would want to be in the void anyway, so the killer would be there to contest the survivors wanting to capture the ghosty thing. If the survivors don't care about it in your match, there's minimal reason to do it as killer beyond bloodpoints- though to be fair you do get a fair amount of those.
Plus, y'know, it is a pretty huge speed boost from the awakened spirit guy. It's not nothing.
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@PAntWill said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566140#Comment_3566140
You can’t do the tome challenges without gaining energy which is gained by the main objective. I don’t care about escaping or 4k. The issue is the sweat that is happening which is incentivised by the devs choosing the main objective being the only way. Matches are over pretty quickly. Also today I’ve had countless killers using the portals to camp. It’s just sweaty man which negates all fun.
You get the void energy stuff from generator repairs, yes, but also those little orbs floating around, from smashing pumpkins, and from stunning the killer. You also don't have to finish the generator, let alone all five, to get energy.
This event is the least sweaty play has ever been encouraged. It does incentivise playing the game, you can't completely ignore the core gameplay loop, but the event itself actually encourages not rushing the generators or trying to get kills asap, because that way you won't get to engage with the actual new mechanics- unlike previous events where the mechanics were pretty straightforward and the cosmetics were all people wanted, encouraging them to get out of the trial ASAP.
If you're seeing people playing sweaty, that's the players, not the event. There's not much more this event could do to prevent those players from playing that way.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of the cosmetics completely unconnected from the event mechanics this time around, because you unlock them with that new currency gained from doing challenges?
This is the least you've ever had to sweat to do things in an event, you straight up don't have to escape or get kills to get the new cosmetics. If explicitly optional cool mechanics that you don't have to win the game to benefit from counts as incentivising sweaty play, I don't think any event ever could avoid that.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565849#Comment_3565849
I didn't mention plague as a reason why inner healing is inconsistent.
It's very clear you've already made up your mind on this and have no interest in actually seeing a point other than your own.
...No, I was using it as an example to support my counter to your argument.
Healing perks are consistent except for when facing Plague. This is an acceptable risk and doesn't make the perks actually inconsistent.
Stay-injured perks are consistent except for when facing stealth killers. This is an acceptable risk and doesn't make the perks actually inconsistent.
Inner Healing is consistent except for when your teammates happen to also have totem perks. This is an acceptable risk and shouldn't make the perk actually inconsistent.
I certainly feel strongly about my position, yes, but I am very much paying attention to and responding to the actual points being made in response to me.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565833#Comment_3565833
I never said finding totems was hard. I simply said that the perk requires you cleanse totems which you also compete against the other 3 survivors in trial. Plus some maps can be quite time consuming finding a totem like Midiwch, RPD, or The Game.
Inner Healing is not consistent and I have had many games where I struggled to find unbroken/unblessed totems because I had teammates doing totem cleansing challenges or running boons. If you want a reliable single use self heal, Plot Twist is far better because it's guaranteed.
I mean, sure, but obviously all consistent perks have caveats, I don't think a perk has to work in literally 100% of scenarios for it to be considered a viably consistent one.
It's kinda like saying all sources of healing, no matter which one or how potent, are inherently inconsistent because you might run into Plague. Sure, that's possible, it's not even unlikely, but it's a pretty acceptable risk. Perks like Resilience and Iron Will are super consistent but you won't end up using them as much against a stealth killer, that's their acceptable downside.
Inner Healing running the risk that someone else might have one of the (currently quite unpopular) totem perks does technically make it inconsistent, but I feel like that's splitting hairs on the same level as my other examples there.
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@Crowman said:
Niche perks are inconsistent, because they only work in a very specific situation that doesn't happen enough.
There's plenty of perks that are weak for various reasons. Values are too low, too many restrictions to use, or too high of a cooldown. And I think you are conflating perks that are weak with perks that are niche. Although niche perks can also be weak perks.
Inner Healing is inconsistent, because locating totems and cleansing them (while also hoping your teammates don't cleanse them) makes the perk a gamble. It's not weak, because it's a free heal and that's a good effect, but you could also run a med-kit and run a different perk for a single time heal and not risk never finding a totem. It can be situationally better than a med-kit due to anti-healing perks a killer could run, but if anti-healing builds got popular there's better tools survivors have then Inner Healing due to the fact the perk becomes weaker the more survivors running it.
Plus we have Plot Twist which is a more consistent version of Inner Healing.
If that is your definition of niche perks, there must not be very many niche perks by your estimation.
After all, Inner Healing isn't inconsistent, because finding totems is 100% in your control. You aren't blindly stumbling around hoping one pops into existence in front of you-- you either have the spawn points memorised or you're bringing tools to help find them. That translates to consistent value, but a niche build in the latter case.
This is what I'm talking about when I say some perks can be made consistent. Inner Healing is one of them. I am 100% okay with calling a perk that requires additional perks to unlock its full value niche, though I wouldn't necessarily say that of IH specifically, but you can't also turn around and call that same perk inconsistent. Its consistency is in your hands, it's not random.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565800#Comment_3565800
They still have plot shield
show ran for 15 seasons
15 seasons of the 2 of them dying and then getting resurrected over and over again or pretty much the 2 of them just getting some luck where they don’t die
and on top of that I already know they’re just gonna be skins cause there’s no way they could be “lore accurate” in the game cause that would be unbalanced for the game I was just making a joke about how powerful the Winchesters could be if they were in dbd
the only thing I’m expecting from a supernatural chapter in dbd (if it ever happens) is probably 3-4 busted survivor perks if the devs wanna make something “lore accurate” of the Winchesters
Eh, every licensed character we have has plot armour within their source material. None of them have that plot armour in the entity's realm.
Besides, dying and then getting resurrected over and over again is quite literally what would await them if they ever entered the Fog.
As for their perks, I don't think them being lore accurate would require them being broken. Sam would largely have info perks, and it's hard to make those truly disgustingly busted, so it'd be Dean's more head-on approach that would risk becoming broken.
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@Rulebreaker said:
On this one we gotta disagree Abit, atleast with the title.
Niche to us is as you said, specialized, and the ones we consider niche (for example we don't consider overzealous as niche) do give inconsistent results. They're not bad but they don't always give results. Take calm spirit (which we do consider niche), it stops a handful of perks and some parts of powers, but has a penalty to totems and chests. I've personally gotten great use out of it as many times as it has screwed me over with that penalty (desperate to break devour? To bad) while every other time it did nothing of value. Similar niche perks are consistently inconsistent (ha) like that. They're not bad or trash, but expecting consistency is a spike fall trap, which being honest is why we feel a lot consider them trash.
I can respect a coherent understanding of perks that simply doesn't draw a distinction between niche and inconsistent, in addition to simply not labelling as many perks niche. I disagree, but I respect that we have different definitions there.
I'm more clarifying my own position on why I feel the terms are misused a lot of the time, and why my position may differ from others.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564617#Comment_3564617
They would be too OP they would hunt and find way to kill the entity. They beat chuck so there is no-one they can't beat.
@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565768#Comment_3565768
Lmao I always thought of it like that
these guys would unironically kill the entity 😭
just image if their teachables were accurate to the show
To play devil's advocate (admittedly based on my somewhat out of date knowledge of the show, I never finished it), I don't think that's strictly accurate. The Winchesters aren't typically portrayed as having inherent powers or strengths that would help them in the Fog, outside of season-specific gimmicks like Sam's demon blood... whatever it was, or Dean's Mark of Cain.
They're typically portrayed as being legendary hunters due to their planning, tools, and support network, only one of which they'd have access to in the Entity's trials. They don't have their car-trunk of weapons, they don't have their big fancy bunker, they can't call for support, they don't have their power-creep swords-that-kill-anything... they're alone, stranded, and unequipped.
It'd be somewhat like Dean's stint in Purgatory. He didn't take over, become top dog, or kill a god during that time, he just survived. Lacking tools, lacking support, and constantly on the back foot, the Winchesters would be seasoned and veteran survivors to be sure, but they wouldn't power-creep other licensed characters.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
I don't think Inner Healing is considered niche though? It's a pretty nice perk if you're playing solo and it bypasses Sloppy Butcher which is pretty common. I think what makes Overzealous niche is the fact that you get hit and lose your speed, despite wasting time to go find a totem and cleanse it, and totems are finite. if you could get back your charge once you get healed or something, i think it'd be in a good spot. Inner Healing doesn't lose its charge if you get grabbed from a locker while it's healing you. Something similar maybe should be also true for Overzealous, or make it lose its gen repair bonus on down instead of on injury.
On top of that, you'd have to do some math to calculate if it's actually gaining you time or wasting you time. Like it takes you 14 seconds to cleanse it but the perk only gives you 10% repair speed, which isn't even 10 seconds. For it to be worth it, you'd have to take out 3 gens or more with one single cleansed totem, which imo isn't realistic for solo survivor. Instead, if killer had hex totems then you'd gain twice the speed, which would make it worth it but niche, as killers running hexes aren't all that common and you'd need to find it first before someone else. I'm saying all this cause I've run this perk, it's a cute little perk, but to get optimal use out of it you need a killer who has hex totems imo. Again this is all for solo survivors, in a 4man SWF someone else can be the bait and you can be the designated gen person.
So no, I don't think Overzealous can be made consistent cause it's mainly a perk that relies on a killer build for maximum and worthy usefulness, and if someone is bring a hex build they're not bringing insane gen control perks, so you don't really need the repair speed lol. When you need the repair speed (dealing with 3+ gen slowdowns) you can't usually get its maximum effect.
Clairvoyance weakness is that it doesn't show you the aura of the other totems, so you're stuck between picking Clairvoyance for hatch aura or Small Game for totem locating and keeping track of how many are still up. I've run Clairvoyance too and honestly, I've gotten use out of it (for hatch that is) few times. i run it when I'm doing treasure hunting builds with Ace's perk that gives you better items from chests etc. so I can find the chests faster. Compared to a perk like MFT, Sprint Burst and even inner Healing, I would not call Clairvoyance that reliable in general, unless you're playing a completely selfish solo build with sole survivor and wake up.
Then there are perks like Rookie Spirit that needs an update because it's downright bad, not even niche. If it halved regression by half of a gen you touch for the next 60 seconds or something, it'd see a lot more play for solos as well.
It's just that niche perks for solos are actually a lot better in a co-ordinated SWF, ex. Power Struggle, Deliverance. So nicheness
So, for the record, none of this was to talk about the strength of my example perks, I was only concerned with whether they were inconsistent or if they were just niche. However, to briefly correct you on something, Overzealous activates on blessing, as well as cleansing, which is why I say that it's niche but not inconsistent. Niche because it does somewhat require you to bring other perks to make it worthwhile and requires deviation from the core gameplay loop, but consistent because when you fulfil that criteria it'll give very consistent value.
Clairvoyance is weak. It is not, however, inconsistent. What it does isn't much, but it does it consistently. It's niche because it requires messing with totems and because it provides auras which only some players will want, and on top of that, it just kinda isn't very good, but to say "niche" to describe it when what you mean is just weak or inconsistent would be misleading and inaccurate.
This does somewhat highlight my point, which is that those three terms - weak, inconsistent, niche - are used interchangeably when they shouldn't be. They're each referring to a meaningfully different concept when applied to perks like this, they don't mean the same thing.
A niche perk like Overzealous that provides reliable value but requires optional actions to charge and somewhat requires supporting perks to make it worthwhile is not inconsistent, and shouldn't be referred to that way. I would also go a step further and argue that it shouldn't be referred to as "trash", "dead weight", or "not worth running", which are the accusations typically tossed out for a majority of survivor perks.
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@vol4r said:
Well, if you're good enough MFT is not a problem, really.
My killrate from before mft didnt change at all, almost every game is 4k.
Crying over 3% is actually stupid XD
You'll notice none of my suggested fixes actually pertain to the 3% Haste, though, so I'm not sure why this is a relevant comment. Unless I'm missing something, of course?
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565498#Comment_3565498
Bloodlust: 5%, takes around 16s per stack, goes away on hit, goes away on kicking pallets, goes away on using power.
MFT: 3% permanently no wind up no deactivation just be injured and chase 20% longer
Im just convinced at this point there are an insane number of survivor players who have no idea how the game functions on a fundamental level and that just because bloodlust is 5% haste doesnt automatically make mft balanced in any way.
There are only 4 or 5 killer powers that counter mft. I'd say nurse, blight, spirit, clown and skull merchant. Nurse blinks dont care how fast you're moving, but mft does double your distance gain. A good blight can use his power anywhere and get a hit. Spirit as well. Clown hinders and hastes making mft relatively irrelevant. SM has built in haste/hinder. Literally anyone else in the roster has nothing. Every killer but the top 3 has areas where their power wont get value from using it, so you dont. Therefore in those scenarios they function as an M1 killer and deal with mft as such.
it baffles me the logical leaps you'll make to call mft balanced.
Most killer powers have something to deal with MFT, as long as you look at the entire game and not the most boiled-down, nuanceless single chase example you can think of.
For example: Wraith is a stealth killer, on top of having his post-uncloak lunge. These are tools to deal with strong loopers who stay injured, and their respective perks- including MFT.
Ghostface is a stealth killer who has an instadown. A good Ghostface doesn't have to care about MFT; if they stay injured, they get ambushed. If they heal, they get Marked.
Almost all the 110 killers have some kind of range, which means the distance gain on MFT is dramatically less useful. The ones who don't, Hag and Spirit, care about MFT even less.
Killers like Nemesis, Xenomorph, and to a lesser extent Pyramid Head shut down map resources in such a way that reaching them slightly faster doesn't really help in most cases.
So on, and so forth. This list isn't exhaustive, they're just examples.
This on top of the fact that even regular M1 chasing is 100% completely viable with the right decisionmaking and skill expression, so even the very few killers who don't have a direct tool to use have options.
It's a little irritating to see people keep taking extremely specific in-a-vacuum scenarios and act like they represent the entire game. More things happen than already being partway through a single chase.
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@Firellius said:
It's all well and good that people like to call it anti-facecamping, but it doesn't make a difference for this topic.
It IS useless if it doesn't obstruct camping.
When the system was being pitched to the playerbase in one of those dev showcases, it was introduced with a little spiel about how it's not fun as a survivor to just sit on hook and not be able to do anything else.
This system does not address that.
In fact, this system does not address anything. It's a complete waste of time.
That's a little misleading. It absolutely addresses the most egregious forms of facecamping, where a killer just stands in front of the hook mindlessly for no reason. In those scenarios, the system works basically perfectly and allows the survivor to unhook themselves so they can make distance and the game can progress again.
It doesn't help in some hyper-specific instances of facecamping (EG, Tombstone Myers), but that's something that can be fixed with adjustments rather than being an abject failure.
For proxy camping, it pushes the killer a little further away so saves can be attempted, which is still a benefit, and it wasn't even designed to really affect this much at all anyway.
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@daddyo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565125#Comment_3565125
Agree to disagree. Survivors are a team. There are 4 of you and if 3 escape then that's a pretty solid team effort and in my opinion is a win even if I'm the person dying. Not really sure why so many survivors have the mindset that they should be able to 1v1 the killer and if they fail that, they've lost.
It's definitely a solid team effort and definitely a loss for the killer, but it's also a loss for the survivor that died. That's their goal, is to escape the trial, that's the entire thing all of the mechanics in the game are built around.
You could argue it'd be healthier for the game to be built around a team-based win or loss for the survivor side, but that's both not how it is now and also might be a hard sell for the single person who escaped only to be told they somehow lost that match.
It's not about being able to 1v1 the killer, at all, it's just about how the game is designed. Your win condition as killer is to kill, and your win condition as survivor is to survive. You stand a better chance of doing that if everyone else escapes too, but that isn't required.
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@daddyo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565118#Comment_3565118
BHVR has acknowledged that the MMR system is lacking in that regard and that they're working on making escaping less important. That said, why do people feel so beholden to what an invisible system considers a win or loss? You don't see your MMR go up or down, and the MMR parameters are a joke for matchmaking purposes so it doesn't even better if it goes up or down after a game.
Like, do you actually consider it a loss if you do 3 gens, save a couple of people, get a clutch flashlight save, take the killer on a game losing chase for the last 2 gens and then die in basement cause the killer had NOED and your teammates all left instead of risking it? Are you not capable of making a win/loss judgement for yourself without considering what BHVR's piss poor system thinks of your performance? Lol.
Not to defend using the MMR system as your metric for winning or losing, because you really should just ignore the MMR system and let it do its work in the background, but that scenario is a loss. The MMR system didn't create the win/loss conditions, they've existed since the game was launched.
The real problem is that people are too caught up in winning or losing and ignore all other details. The scenario you describe is a loss, but in my book, it's a pretty good + fun loss that I'd be perfectly happy with. Others, less so, and they might be happier if they re-evaluated that stance.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I think if we’re at the point we’re considering adding a unique running animation to a Haste effect just to counterbalance it, something is wrong with that effect. While it would make its use more obvious to killers, it doesn’t change how powerful MFT actually is.
Fwiw, I agree that the Endurance should be removed - it’s overkill, and I’d even go as far as saying Haste stacking should be completely removed for both sides, not just survivors. But MFT’s run speed can’t be fixed just by giving it an obvious tell. While it has counterplay in some situations, there are also a lot of situations where it really doesn’t, or simply provides far too much value even if the killer gets the down eventually. The problem with MFT is that the perk is simply way too easy to activate. Being injured and not exhausted is not nearly restrictive enough for how powerful its effect is. It either needs a more restrictive limit on its use, or it needs to have a time limit, or something. It also should not synergize with Dead Hard as well as it does right now, that basically defeats the point of not being able to use it while exhausted.
It's not to counterbalance it, it's to give it a tell. A lot of perks would be difficult to track the effect of with no indication, and a lot of those perks give a little popup in the corner of the screen. I think that would work for MFT, though it'd be a bit annoying to remember who has it, but a different running animation would be both cooler and make things a little smoother to track, so I'd prefer to see that.
I have no reason to believe that the 3% Haste, on its own, is actually too strong. It seems, on paper and in practice (from what I've seen), to be balanced enough to not be a problem.
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It's for facecamping, not proxy camping, so having a tight range is pretty justifiable.
Also, to your last part- the killer shouldn't be punished for successfully taking and winning a chase near a hook, because that's not facecamping. Slugged survivors should slow it, and carrying survivors should stop it completely (as it currently does).
It's the same reason it slows down when another survivor is nearby to begin with.
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I agree. It wouldn't even be a bad decision financially on BHVR's part- if they pick the right characters, they'd get more interest in their game to non-players and more incentive to buy skins for those who do start playing.
I'd say they should start with making Of Flesh and Mud and Spark of Madness free on Steam, which for some reason they aren't despite that being the case everywhere else. If I had to pick one extra chapter to make basegame, I'd pick either Curtain Call or Darkness Among Us.
Clown + Kate are simple, appealing, and have good perks, whereas Darkness Among Us contains a very popular killer (that'll sell a lot of skins if they're already unlocked, just saying) and a survivor with pretty decent perks for newer players getting to grips with things.
I've seen some people suggest putting a shard discount on older characters, and I'd agree with that too. The grind isn't quite as bad as people make it out to be (very few people care about getting everything (least of all new players), which is where it starts becoming daunting) but it could easily be alleviated for newer players all the same.
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Generally speaking, the anti-tunnel in the game is geared around making sure survivors do have the agency to utilise their skill to avoid going down. That's why the protection is there after a hook and is typically on a timer, for example. The problem is often that the tools are weak enough that they can't utilise those things as effectively as they should, or have other big flaws damaging their effectiveness.
Take the basekit protection being Endurance. Being hit during that ten second timer means that you're in Deep Wounds, which means you can't really use anything else based around Endurance to make distance and reach a tile. This can be a problem when a fair few sources of anti-tunnel (and even some tools that aren't anti-tunnel but might help here, like Dead Hard) also use Endurance and are now unusable.
So, we can see that anyone asking for the basekit protection to be changed to no longer use Endurance would be an example of calling for changes to tunnelling that are based around survivors using their skill to evade tunnelling. There are other examples too, a lot of more level-headed calls here come from people who want survivors to be able to consistently use their skill when they're being tunnelled.
In addition, there's a genuine argument to be had about whether it's fair to place all the skill expression burden on the person being tunnelled. It doesn't exactly take huge skill on the killer's side, after all, so it often takes more skill to counter than it does to perform. There's an honest discussion to be had about whether that's fair or not.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564930#Comment_3564930
ok so you truly believe that the endurace part of MFT is the issue with the perk and not the permanent 3% speed boost ?
Oki
You have literally no reason to believe otherwise considering I've said as much in multiple threads including this one.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/394306/how-to-fix-made-for-this
Stop trying to hide the real issue with MFT please, no one cares about Endurance and stacking.
The real issue is the PERMANENT 3% speed boost, a perk without limits is a problem, you can be injuried in at the beginning of the game and have perma speed boost for the entire match and that's beyond stupid. IF this perk deactivate after 10 seconds no one will complain but, guess why, no one will use it anymore.People are using it not for the endurance effect or the stacking, but for the perma boost that works so well with other similar perks ( and here's the stacking issue )
This is going to come as a shock to you, so I'd suggest bracing yourself, but sometimes... people actually just have different opinions to you. They're not trying to "hide" something, they don't secretly agree with you but hold the opposite position for some nefarious purpose, they just straight up don't agree with you.
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I don't think Lethal Pursuer really changes much, though? A killer that has more than a handful of hours is going to know how survivor spawns work, so they're going to be on somebody pretty early into the match unless everyone immediately starts hiding for some reason.
It's a one in four chance that someone is you, and that number doesn't change if the killer has Lethal Pursuer.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564753#Comment_3564753
But that isn't a specific counter to the perk. "Just be good at chasing" is not a counter.
- "You mindgame": Not all loops are mindgame-able.
- "improve your pathing where possible": And if you're already pathing as efficiently as possible, how does this counter the additional speed MFT provides?
- "you drop chase and ambush later": This is easy to say but doesn't always work out in your favour in a match. If you drop chase, you now have to go and find another survivor and initate a fresh chase with them, only to potentially discover that they have MFT and Resilience too, and are going to waste just as much time as your previous chase. You can't drop chases indefinitely. If everyone is efficient loopers and running perks to extends chases, you're left with no choice but to chase and down one of them.
- "you use your power": Again, not all killers have a power for this. In theory, killers like Shape and Ghostface can bypass MFT. But in actual matches, you're not going to have a chance to proc your power in every single chase you initiate. Sometimes you are forced to chase as an M1 killer. Even if you do bypass MFT by making survivors Exposed, they will still come of the hook injured -- at which point your power is not going to help you much. Obviously Ghostface does have stealth capability, and can ambush injured survivors. But Shape post-Tier 1 doesn't really have that capacity (at least not basekit).
citing Garden of Joy is putting your thumb on the scale a bit. It's not as though MFT is needed to make that a nightmare for a lot of killers.
How so? It's not as if Garden of Joy is the only instance of tough loops made even worse by MFT (and adjacent perks). Badham Preschool main building, Mother's Dwelling main building, various buildings on Haddonfield, the log loop on Backwater Swamp, etc.
Certain loops being problematic even without MFT is not a good defense of the perk either way.
I'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered a counter, considering it dramatically cuts down the effectiveness of the perk and renders it more than manageable. That sounds like a counter to me!
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564733#Comment_3564733
If the only counter being to completely shut the perk off with Exhaustion were even close to true
Please expain the counterplay to me then.
you seem to be under the impression the elements that weren't taken into account - loops, where on the map you are, killer powers, other perks in play - would make the numbers worse, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Because it's the only logical conclusion:
- Survivors are smaller and can hug loops tighter than the killer, which is the very reason that looping is even possible. Adding a Haste effect on top of this, makes loops even safer. The only way it wouldn't help is if the survivor is completely atrocious.
- MFT is not only helpful at loops, it also helps you to reach them and chain them into one another.
The only way that would be the case, from what I can see, is if a killer is just following the survivor in a completely straightforward manner
Not all killers have a chase power, and some of them that do, have a bad one.The Shape, Ghostface, Onryō, Pig etc. Which means that at some loops, all you can do is follow in a straight line and turn as needed. Garden of Joy main building for instance. The window is incredibly safe, and generally unmindgameable due to how long the wall is. There's also a god pallet right next to it that survivors have to fall back on if they do happen to mess up.
You'd counter MFT in the same way you'd counter any skilled looper. You mindgame, you improve your pathing where possible, you drop chase and ambush later to give them less of a head start, you use your power (not just in a direct chase way; you cite Ghostface, who is capable of shutting down MFT completely with good play), you chase into deadzones where applicable.
This is generally the context that is missing when people try and talk about MFT in hard numbers. The reality of a trial with skilled players is tossed out the window and only individual chases with all the nuances sanded off are considered.
I think citing Garden of Joy is putting your thumb on the scale a bit. It's not as though MFT is needed to make that a nightmare for a lot of killers.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
survivors who have MFT equipped (and are affected by it, so this would disable while Exhausted and/or healthy, for instance) should have a visual tell so the killer knows to play around it
But the problem is, the perk has no inherent counterplay for the killer.
The only counterplay (I use that word very loosely here) the perk has is equipping add-ons or perks that make survivors Exhausted. But since you cannot alter your build mid-match, there's nothing a killer can actually do about it once they realise it's in play. You could argue that killers should just equip such builds for all games they play, but it's not a viable option considering:
- Not all killers even have Exhaustion add-ons.
- Not all killers can afford to waste perk slots on Exhaustion-inflicting perks.
- Plus, most perks that do this are very bad at it. E.g. Blood Echo has an overly long cooldown, Genetic Limits has a niche activation requirement, Septic Touch is... just terrible in every way, etc.
The only consistent counterplay to MFT being "have foresight of the perks that the survivors will run so you can preemptively equip Exhaustion builds" doesn't sit right with me.
You could argue that giving MFT a visual tell allows the killer to make more informed decisions about which chases to commit to and which to drop. But that also doesn't work in situations where all of the survivors have MFT (in addition to other chase perks like Resilience and WoO). Okay, so the perk has a visual tell, and I now know that the whole team is running MFT. But what exactly am I supposed to do with that information?
Prevent stacking
I see this suggestion a lot, but I don't think it will solve the problem. Haste stacking only exacerbates the problem with MFT, but I honestly believe the 3% on its own is still an issue. Yeah, it sounds like a very small number when you think of it compared to the absolute speed of 100%. But that's not what's relevant in a chase. The length of time it takes for killers to catch survivors is governed by differential speed between the two. Running the numbers (as has been done in this Reddit post, as well as many times here on the forums) reveals that even a small 3% speed boost for the survivor increases the length of time required to catch a survivor by:
- 25% for 4.6 ms^-1 killers.
- 42% for 4.4 ms^-1 killers.
And that's in a vacuum. Not even considering the extra loops around windows, pallets, debris etc. that MFT allows you to get. Slap on Resilience to vault faster, and WoO to plan your pathing better -- and chases are going to last a WHOLE lot longer.
This game has been balanced around survivors running at 100% movement speed. All of the tiles are designed with that speed in mind. Giving survivors a movement speed boost that can last the entire game causes a number of these loops to just become unmanagable for M1 killers. Sure, they'll eventually be able to catch up due to window blockers and Bloodlust. But by the time it happens, all of the generators have popped and the game is as good as over.
Another point I see brought up a lot to defend the 3% of MFT, is other Haste perks like Dark Theory or Blood Pact. At first, it seems only logical that if MFT is overtuned these perks must be too. But there's a big difference between them. Dark Theory and Blood Pact grant Haste under strict conditions:
- Dark Theory has to be set up, which wastes survivors' time. Moreover, The Haste effect only applies in a relatively small radius, and the killer can disable it -- forcing survivors to sink more time into searching for and blessing totems if they want the Haste effect again.
- Blood Pact has a niche activation requirement. Someone needs to get injured, lose the killer, find their partner, heal and then stay within 16 metres of each other. That means to get value out of the perk, two survivors have to stay grouped up and get chased together -- which is terribly inefficient.
Compare that to MFT where the only activation requirements are:
- Running,
- and being injured.
Both of which are normal occurences in a chase. There's no requirement to go out of your way to get the perk. It's just there, passively, for the whole game.
In my opinion, MFT is a disaster of a perk that should've never been released. The fact it's now taken over 5 months to rectify is unacceptable really. Playing an M1 killer in the current "4 chase perks" meta is like trying to ride a bicycle with square wheels.
If the only counter being to completely shut the perk off with Exhaustion were even close to true, you may have a point here, but you'll forgive me for not being convinced on that front.
It is entirely true that the numbers you've been given here for how much longer it takes the killer to catch up are numbers in a vacuum, but you seem to be under the impression the elements that weren't taken into account - loops, where on the map you are, killer powers, other perks in play - would make the numbers worse, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The only way that would be the case, from what I can see, is if a killer is just following the survivor in a completely straightforward manner with no input beyond holding the W key and turning the mouse where necessary.