jesterkind
jesterkind
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Worm.
Killer: Khepri, The Parahuman. Power focused around swarms of insects that act as tracking tools and chase survivors to inflict damage if they aren't repelled, or something. I just want Taylor in the game...
Map: Could be a few things. The bank + outdoor street from Skitter's first big score, one of the schools, the PRT headquarters... maybe even something on one of the alternate Earths from the climax.
No good idea for survivor, though. Pretty much everyone relevant would be too OP to justify it, but you could maayyybbeee get away with Tattletale.
Alternately... Homestuck.
Killer: Bec Noir. No clue what the power would be.
Survivor: Could go a number of directions but I'm biased, I want Vriska.
Map: Go nuts! Derse? The battlefield Skaia? The meteor? Somewhere on Alternia? Tons of super visually evocative places to go there.
I know Homestuck isn't really horror content, but still, I'd like it.
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Nothing 'redeems' it, I just think the specific criticisms levied against it are often wrong or misleading.
There are issues with it, and I won't defend the perk in general, but I will defend it from arguments that the 3% Haste itself is inherently broken and can never be considered balanced. I don't believe that to be true; nothing 'redeems' the perk from this complaint because the complaint doesn't hold water to begin with.
Conditional speed boosts are nothing new, and I think it's interesting to have a sustained boost rather than a burst of speed as is the norm. With the right changes, it'll have a good place in the game and might encourage people to deviate from the normal Exhaustion perks due to it either straight up literally not working with the strongest options (Sprint Burst, Overcome) or requiring you to play in such a way that pairing makes both perks weaker for the less strong options (Lithe, Balanced). The perks it does work with are either less commonly run to begin with (IE, Smash Hit) or they're weak enough that it doesn't matter (Dead Hard).
I would also like to see anti-Exhaustion made more consistent, to achieve the same effect of making Exhaustion perks less of an obvious best-in-class, but that's a different topic.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564467#Comment_3564467
It's specific, isn't that what you asked for? It's not inconsistent though. It's universally true, because it already assumes perfect pathing on both the survivor and killer (significantly harder on the killer's part than the survivor).
I mean the mindgame itself is inconsistent. There's plenty of times you'd "win" the vault mindgame in that the survivor runs towards you, but still has enough time to reach the pallet or take another loop around because of how long vaults take.
It's also not what I asked for, as it's only one example mindgame. If the take I was responding to was "there are some mindgames which MFT lessens", sure, but that isn't what's being discussed.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564464#Comment_3564464
I think I already gave an example before. Winning a vault mindgame on shack means nothing because the survivor still makes the window.
That's a pretty specific and already pretty inconsistent example, though. When someone says "mindgame", my first thought is moonwalking at a regular jungle gym or something, those kinds of broadly-applicable and very common mindgames-- and those ones completely undo MFT, assuming they're successful.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562710#Comment_3562710
Because bloodlust is a necessary evil for the game to be playable for low tier killers. Theres a reason it deactivates on doing pretty much anything, so it only does anything for low tiers who need it. MFT is reverse blooslust in every sense. Instant, unlimited, and hurts low tiers while blight ignores it.
No, people think MFT is a problem because its bad design with 0 counterplay. You say that an experienced killer who is skilled in chase can counter MFT. With exceptions for only specific killers on specific types of loops, there is no situation in which skill counters MFT. No amount of mindgames or good power usage will change the fact that you are gaining distance significantly slower. Maybe a wesker could get a down on a TL faster than a doctor with some good flicks against the MFT user. But that doesnt change that it took longer to be in the situation where using your power was a viable play. This goes for every single killer. Thats not countering MFT, thats surviving it. The only killers where MFT is truly countered are the ones who can always use their power to get a down, in every possible scenario if you are good enough. Which boils it down to just blight nurse and spirit. Really only blight completely ignores it, since nurse loses distance 2x fast and spirits got a sizeable cooldown as a 110%.
This is not a "git gud" problem, mft is clearly unbalanced and badly designed.
I'm not sure how you can say "no amount of mindgames" will "change the fact that you are gaining distance significantly slower", when the result of a successful mindgame is that the survivor does not gain any distance at all, and in fact loses distance. That's what a mindgame is and what it's for, so would you mind clarifying what you mean here?
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Good. Definitely good. It's not everything that Trapper needs, he's still a flawed and weak killer, but it definitely elevates him pretty noticeably and that shouldn't be overlooked.
Basement Trapper is probably still going to be the best strategy but, let's face it, putting survivors in the basement and trying to camp it is pretty strong as a tactic for almost any killer. What this does is better enable him to be aggressive and mobile, which is a positive. Try using the green setting speed addon and the Coffee Grounds if you haven't already, it's kinda nuts.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don’t know. I've never seen anybody run Poised outside of adept Jane.
I'm not saying individual perks can't be bad, I'm saying a majority are viable/worth running.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562084#Comment_3562084
The reality is potential value doesn't make a perk "good" or viable. In any video game players would want to choose perks or powers that give them value every time they bring it. It's not a shameful thing to do, it's only natural. This is where the problem is. Your definition of good is "There's a chance most perks can give you some type of value eventually so most of them are good."
This isn't the case when it comes to real gameplay. There are so many situational perks for survivors that it's not worth running for the potential of "x perk value!" in that one random match. So people naturally want to run perks that has high chance of giving consistent value.
For example, my standard build for survivor is Bond, Deja Vu, Off the Record, Adrenaline and everytime I wish to try something different or fun the game makes me regret it because bringing those perks would be more helpful instead of trying some wacky niche build that makes me very vulnerable to certain killer strategies.
I literally said the opposite, that most perks give consistent value, so I have no idea where this argument came from. Is it just because I acknowledged the handful of perks like Reassurance which are viable despite not being consistent? There aren't that many of those, I just wanted to be honest about them existing.
Your standard build looks great! You've got info, you've got utility, and you've got gen speed. That's exactly what I'm talking about, a varied build that covers a lot of bases is much more useful than stacking meta chase perks. It's worth mentioning there are alternatives to what you're running here for the same or similar value, those aren't the only perks that do those things (save for OTR, that probably is your one for anti-tunnel right now), but in general that's exactly what I'm talking about here.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562084#Comment_3562084
I usually agree with your takes but not this one. Most (yes, a majority) of survivor perks are bad/inefficient. If one isn’t getting consistent value from a perk—that means it works more than once in a blue moon under the ‘right’ conditions—it isn’t a good perk. It’s a niche perk. And that is a bad perk. Most survivor perks fall into this.
I agree with your reasoning, but I disagree with your conclusion. I think most perks do give you consistent value. I think the problem is that "value" is being measured against something like, say, Adrenaline or some other meta perk, which is a bar a lot of perks don't meet.
But, if we ignore what the upper limit is for value in this game, most perks absolutely do something. They'll do something that you'll notice and they'll improve your chances of winning. That's not to say they're all of equal strength, but that's a separate thing.
Another issue, and I think it's a fairly benign issue, is that some perks are viable but do things people don't want. Like, there are a lot of pretty decent totem perks, for example, but a lot of players don't really care about cleansing (or even blessing, now) totems, even if it would be beneficial with these picks. That's fine, of course, players can play however they like, but I do think there should be a little pushback against the idea that the perks are trash because of it.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562078#Comment_3562078
If we're only talking semantics and don't care about the real-life applications of said perks, then maybe.
It's not semantics to remind you what the point you're trying to argue against actually is.
We also are considering the real applications of those perks. There are a lot more viable perks than people think there are, and that's not only looking in a vacuum or talking hypothetically. In a real match, preparing for realistic scenarios, you have a lot of options for perks. You don't have to run four meta chase perks, and in fact, doing that is probably going to hurt your chances of winning in the long run.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562074#Comment_3562074
Yes. The title is "Most Survivor Perks Are Good, Actually" which isn't true, actually. I only posted a fraction of useless survivor perks, I could in fact keep going but wanted to keep it short. These perks merely existing is enough of a counterargument for your post so I didn't feel the need to go in detail since it's clear LOL.
"Most" would imply a majority. In order for that list to counter my post at all, it would need to be a majority of survivor perks. If it isn't, and it's in fact a minority, that would mean "most" survivor perks are good, actually.
(Also, not every perk in that list is bad. Cut Loose is a perfectly fine perk, just outclassed by Quick & Quiet, and Urban Evasion can be used well if you know what you're doing.)
As long as we set our bar reasonably, at "consistently provides value (or is potent enough to be viable despite being situational, like Reassurance)", most survivor perks are perfectly viable.
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@Venusa said:
Whatever that means...
Now show us proof of you getting Premonition, Red Herring, Poised, Solidarity, Calm Spirit, This is not Happening, Power of Two, Collective Stealth, Corrective Action, Rookie Spirit, Better than New, Blood Pact, Cut Loose, Dark Sense, Inner Focus, Low Profile, Pharmacy, Quick Gambit, Urban Evasion, Up the Ante value consistently?
Do you think there being a list of perks that are bad counters this post in any meaningful way? Surely you aren't under the impression this list comprises a majority of survivor perks, right?
@NerfDHalready said:
niche healing perks could see some use if hemorrhage completely didn't destroy them like resurgence, reactive healing and solidarity. tbf solidarity isn't affected that much since i comes into play while you reset so hemorrhage isn't taking effect but still.
even though i agree there are a few perks being overlooked; most survivor perks ARE in fact not worth running unfortunately.
To be fair, I'm not talking about niche healing perks like those three. Those three are weak, but other healing perks are not. We'll Make It, Botany Knowledge, Autodidact, Circle of Healing, even something like Desperate Measures can be genuinely very strong, especially in the right loadout.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561415#Comment_3561415
does it not? thats stupid, it really should.Im guessing it deactivates on miss/hit and not swing then.
I guess going down counts, got me there. not very good one though.
Not on miss, not on swing. It deactivates on hit, though.
MFT also deactivates when Exhausted. Please note that how good/effective/balanced that deactivation requirement may be is not what is relevant here.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559751#Comment_3559751
Oh look. another MFT defender saying its the same as bloodlust. who could have guessed.
Maybe, just maybe, bloodlust and MFT share ONE similarity of being haste related.
Bloodlust: 5% haste x3 over time. Resets on swing. Rests on pallet break. Resets on power use. Essentially only does jack on m1 killers. Exists solely for killers with no range or chase mobility to have any chance on unbalanced maps.
MFT: Injured=3% haste. No deactivation requirements. destroys the aforementioned M1 killers.
Wow, so equal.
Not that I'm saying Bloodlust and MFT are equal, but to be fair, this isn't strictly accurate. Bloodlust doesn't reset on swing, and MFT does have a deactivation requirement.
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...Yes we are? We're not getting paid for this, of course we're volunteers.
To the actual topic, considering the tactical use for camping - proxy camping to interrupt an attempted save + start a new chase that way - hasn't really changed beyond there being a bit of a radius to be aware of, I don't think much compensation is really needed for the anti-face camp system. It's just protecting against an unhealthy cheese strat making the game worse, which is pretty self-evidently a good thing.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561066#Comment_3561066
Sure. M1 someone, chase until you get a down, then snowball with power. But what happens when that first chase takes 4 gens and everyone stealths out your power? What happens when the injured person all of a sudden runs at 103% and you're forced to pick between either chasing as an M1 killer eating pallet after pallet or popping your power over an injured survivor for your first hook?
I don't know that you are meant to get an M1 down first, though. Like, that first chase is - in my experience - more for getting a hit and grabbing a few orbs before you move over to someone else. Popping your power on an injured person may be not as potent as popping it on a healthy person, as a separate argument here, but it's not as though that's losing value either. It's still using a powerful ability to gain a down much faster than you would've otherwise.
Regardless, though, this does sort of fall into the trap of assuming that M1 chasing against MFT is a lost cause where the survivor is untouchable always no matter what, which is a little silly. I just also think Oni doesn't actually want to do that anyway, which is pretty relevant.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561041#Comment_3561041
You want to get a down eventually, don't you? Or is your entire point to get orbs? If you just wanna collect orbs, that's fine, but you're giving up gens for free essentially. If you want the down, you're playing as an M1 killer into MFT, unless if you're willing to pop power over an injured survivor, in which case, by all means.
But isn't that kind of the value proposition for Oni anyway? Slow start, then a spike in power that makes up for the lost time with heavy potential to snowball?
I'm hardly the most distinguished Oni player around, I'll admit, but that is kind of how you're meant to play him from what I can gather. You hit someone early on, follow them to get a few orbs, and then peel away to hit someone else and build up your power that way if an easy opportunity for a down doesn't present itself.
I don't think Oni is meant to be going for M1 downs unless he has to. Default M1 chasing may be where MFT would help more here, but Oni already doesn't really want to do that specifically because his power is that strong when he has it.
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It causes the killer to stagger further from side to side, albeit not by too much.
More importantly, though, it gives you more bloodpoints :3
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560886#Comment_3560886
Sure thing. Playing an M1 killer on shack without Bloodlust. If you manage to mindgame the window perfectly and vault it as a survivor crosses over it, without MFT, they make it to about the center of the shack before you get the hit. With MFT, they make the vault comfortably. You MIGHT get an extreme pokos if you catch them very early on (basically as they're crossing the window from right to left), but Resi guarantees the vault either way. In this situation, mindgaming is detrimental and you're better off just eating the 3 vaults until entity blocks the window. Same thing with filler pallets, any time you double back, you lose distance. You're better off just zoning straight towards the emptier area and just eating the pallet.
MFT was most definitely not added to counter Blight and Nurse as it does absolutely nothing for them, and only hurts the weaker killers.
Maps keep getting weaker? Kinda like Toba Landing with its disgusting main, Nostromo, Borgo, and Garden of Joy? Or the reworked Mother's Dwelling that somehow made one of the safest maps in the game even safer?
MFT gives value regardless of the survivor's skill. It's a perk that gives GUARANTEED value as long as you get injured throughout the game at least once. It lets you make pallets you wouldn't otherwise, or windows you wouldn't otherwise, or simply wastes more of the killer's time by just holding down W.
Why are you still going on about Eruption? Eruption was never part of this conversation. Drop this sidebar, whatever you're driving at.
I'm not going to address UW, because this isn't a conversation about UW. This is a conversation about MFT. I think UW is problematic on its own (although to a much lesser degree than MFT) but that's a different conversation completely. This is a thread about MFT, stay on topic.
Artist gets hurt by MFT, as does Plague, Huntress, Oni, and Pinhead to a lesser degree. Plague is the 2nd tallest M1 killer in the game when she's out of power. She has to play around MFT basically 90% of the match. Artist's main counter is hold W, which MFT significantly helps with. Oni out of power is a pure M1 killer, and if he's wasting time following you around with MFT picking up blood orbs, gens are gonna pop very fast. Huntress around any filler tile with long walls with MFT is an absolute nightmare to play against. You're forced to respect the pallet over and over again and hope you get lucky with the one time where you pull up, or respect, that it happens to be when they drop the pallet. You're essentially forced to eat the pallet. GF and Myers can bypass it assuming they have a 99. Outside of it, they still have to chase normally. Bubba can either try to force a chainsaw hit (gonna take forever with how maps are designed nowadays), or go for an M1 at some point on a medium vault and play into MFT. There is no winning scenario. At this point, you're essentially just rambling and namedropping killers saying "oh well they don't even mind MFT" when the truth is, yes, they do.
Genuine question, because I'm pretty sure I must be missing something regarding your argument here- what exactly changes for Oni in your example here with the addition of MFT?
If following the survivor around to collect blood orbs means gens are going to fly too fast, surely that's just true of Oni regardless of MFT, right? The point isn't actually to catch them in this scenario, it's to get your power, at which point I'm sure you agree Oni won't care about MFT at all.
But, if you are just collecting your power, doesn't that mean gens fly for Oni anyway whether MFT is in play or not?
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If you want the killer's aura, and you specifically want it in a radius around the hook, you might be kind of out of luck. I can't think of any reliable killer aura perk for that other than Kindred.
But for the killer's aura in general, there's Alert, which I find to be surprisingly useful. There's Dark Sense, which I still haven't quite figured out my opinion on, there's Premonition that'll help you in a pinch if the killer's coming towards your generator but admittedly isn't an aura... Fogwise if you're good at hitting skill checks, Wiretap is powerful but trickier to use in hook scenarios like this.
Beyond that, Blood Amber on a Key is legitimately powerful, but requires a little building-into.
I'm assuming you don't want the survivor aura half, so I won't give suggestions for that.
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I don't think this is a fair criticism, considering the killer skins are pretty horror-centric.
There's Clown's being, y'know, a killer clown, there's Billy in a macabre mockery of some kind of carnival worker outfit (? not sure what it is, some kind of uniform), there's Oni in a pretty sick samurai looking thing, and there's Dredge once again blowing it out of the water with an incredible toy-themed horror monster design. These are all pretty clearly horror-inspired.
The only outlier is really the Twins, but I'd say the blood on the uniform is at least something.
The bright and snazzy outfits tend to go to survivors, and there's no reason they should look grim and foreboding. They're meant to be the light you root for, after all.
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@Lithi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560697#Comment_3560697
Ays’s suggestion was not a serious one, it was trying to point out the flaw with mft. Perks that affect speed are fine when done right yes, but a permanent 3% boost changes a lot of interactions and isn’t healthy for the game, saying killers have bloodlust and powers isn’t a good argument
Right, but if it's a bad argument, it doesn't successfully point out any flaws at all. It didn't relate to any flaws with MFT that may exist, because it's just not an accurate or realistic argument.
The arguments used here do still need to not be wrong.
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@Lithi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560688#Comment_3560688
Survivors have the resources of the map to gain distance, saying they have nothing is just wrong
Well, yes, that's kind of what I meant by moving faster. That isn't happening in a vacuum, typically the survivor and the killer are in a sort of race towards the nearest resource; both want to reach it first, the survivor to make distance with it, the killer to get a hit.
What I mean is that survivors don't have any core base mechanic to make distance other than the map itself. They don't have Bloodlust, they don't gain any distance holding forward in a straight line (and in fact lose distance that way), and they don't have any powers to help them out there either.
My point is, certain Haste numbers/implementation would be unbalanced on the killer side but totally fine on the survivor side, for those reasons.
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@ays12151 said:
Whole game is balanced around 100% speed. If you think 3% MFT is fine, you are completely wrong. Just like I said. Give a Killer 1/1.5% speed per every Survivor injured - this perk (with your logic) will be also fine.
Assuming this is aimed at my earlier response to you, apologies if it isn't!
As I said, there are reasons why a speed perk would be unbalanced for a killer but not for a survivor. Killers already move faster, have the Bloodlust mechanic at base to increase that movement speed further, and commonly have powers which aid in closing the distance for an attack already. Survivors have none of these tools, they just have how fast they can move.
The whole game is actually balanced around that 100% speed number changing a lot. It's the baseline, it's not the absolute. Killers already move faster than 100%, and survivors have historically had a lot of methods for making themselves move faster too. Conditional speed boosts are nothing new, this one's just over time instead of in a burst.
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559604#Comment_3559604
3% speed while injured never should be a thing in dbd - that's what I meant
Sure, but your argument was a poor one.
I disagree with that too, I think the speed on MFT is fine (with an asterisk), but that's not really what I was responding to.
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553373#Comment_3553373
Let's create a perk for a Killer like: Gain X% (1 or 1.5%) speed per every Survivor injured. Hm? It's just X meters of distance, who cares?
Speed perks between killer and survivor aren't equal, though. The killer already moves faster, and already has tools for closing distance in a lot of cases unrelated to perks.
That's not to say all hypothetical speed perks for survivor would be balanced, to be clear, but there are reasons why a small increase would be balanced for survivors and not for killers.
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I'm not so sure I agree as the premise here. I don't think the killer inherently needs slowdown perks when facing a strong team, it's only really necessary if that team brings specific tools to speed the generators up considerably.
With that in mind, I don't think a global slowdown perk nerf and basekit slowdown buff would actually change much. You'd still be at the mercy of the two things actually making generators go too fast; survivors spawning all spread out, and toolboxes in particular. It'd be much more effective to tackle this issue at those two sources, imo, rather than continuing to tinker with perks that are honestly pretty balanced at the moment.
As an aside, if you're taking 3+ gen defence perks, you're probably going to lessen your chances of victory since you'll be lacking vital tools like info perks.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559105#Comment_3559105
do you ever read what you type... "they do the same thing, they only show different auras!!" my guy... that means they are different perks with very different effects. thats like trying to claim UW and Hoarder do the same thing because of the loud noise notification.. good god, survivor mental gymnastics are at an all time high.
Again, claiming "Pallets aren't hidden, just obstructed by a wall or another object" thats the textbot definition of "hidden".
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0N7LC7LLWD2K/image.png
Are we seriously trying to twist and change the dictionary just so it fits the survivor narrative?
WOO is non-interactive, and all it promotes is the gameplay loop of Run to yellow aura, Predrop/Vault Yellow aura , Run to next yellow aura, rinse and repeat. this is fundamentally unhealthy and monotonous.
Okay, first of all, we'll need to cover a quick correction here - I am a killer player. I do play survivor sometimes, but I primarily play killer and I am arguing from a killer perspective here.
Second: I am arguing that Windows and Bond have the same design, and do the same general thing, with the key difference being what is revealed. If Windows is problematic because it's wallhacks on something you can already see without it, why is Bond not a problem for being wallhacks on something you can't already see without it? This even notwithstanding that what Bond reveals is the stronger aura, because it allows you to be more efficient and make better decisions for the macro game.
Third: When I say that pallets and windows aren't hidden, I pretty clearly meant in general. Those resources are not something you have to uncover, they're just there. You can see them every time you pass them. When you see them, you're more than capable of keeping a mental note of them. Windows just cuts down on how many mental notes you need to keep in mind mid-chase, which may be kind of boring but isn't unhealthy or overpowered.
Lastly: I may or may not agree with you about Windows being non-interactive and boring, but considering that what you're describing isn't exclusively possible due to Windows + can and does happen without it, why exactly is the perk the problem? It doesn't enable this gameplay, it doesn't make this gameplay more efficient, it doesn't even encourage this gameplay. It's just... also there while this gameplay happens.
From the perspective of a killer player, Windows is a giant red herring. It's like Prove Thyself was until that got nerfed, but even moreso; it is not making your games harder. It is not unhealthy, overpowered, or in need of a nerf. Clamouring to nerf it isn't going to achieve anything, it's a waste of time on our end and a waste of resources on BHVR's.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559102#Comment_3559102
You're grouping the 2 aura perks as if they do the same thing.
Being told where your teammate is doesn't make your pathing in chase better the effect is considerably weaker than WOO.
Being told where a random pallet / Window you didn't know existed is, allows you to b-line to it and extend the chase even though you didn't actually deserve it.
And yes, often windows and pallets *are* hidden from view, the Wiki video literally showcases this effect.
I'm grouping them together because they do do the same thing. There is a range around your character where things will be revealed to you; the difference is what they reveal.
Knowing where your teammate is allows for a much greater show of skill expression in your decisionmaking than confirmation of resources you already had the ability to know about. Far more. It may not be directly in chase all the time (though it undeniably is chase efficiency sometimes), but it's easily as strong, if not stronger.
Windows and pallets are never hidden from the survivor. They may be obstructed by a wall or something in any specific chase, but the survivor almost certainly has seen them beforehand. Survivors don't just exist in chase and nothing else, they walk and run between generators, to get unhooks, to evade the killer, to do killer-specific actions, to seek totems- and during that time, they have eyes and they can see the map, which means they know where the resources are. WoO adds literally zero extra benefit in this regard, save for maybe if they are the very first survivor chased in a match and that chase happens very quickly.
The only thing WoO actually does beyond what you'd have available anyway is tell you which resources have been used by teammates already, which is nice but hardly overpowered. I really don't get why any killer player would complain about WoO when it means that perk slot isn't being used for anything actually impactful- it's not a real chase perk, it's not an info perk for info they wouldn't have otherwise, it's not a generator perk, it's not a healing perk.
If anything, WoO being more meta just gives you more use for sources of Blindness. It's really not an unhealthy perk at all.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559084#Comment_3559084
WOO quite literally just needs to be reverted to 3.0.0 with the Cooldown after dropping pallets / Vaulting or some other activation requirement to have it up.
A permanent and freest of free GPS guidance system to all the resources on the map just removes skill expression and prevents killer from being able to effeciently deadzone a survivor.
Nobody considers themselves "outplayed in chase" if the other person is running MFT+Resi+WOO because its just auto-pilot DBD.
But it's not like those resources are hidden. You can see them with your human eyes, WoO is just a little more convenient and means you don't have to keep such a running tally of where which resource is. It's nice, but it's hardly even all that better than not bringing it, let alone fundamentally unhealthy.
I also don't see why WoO would be considered unhealthy, when a perk with the same general design but much higher potency is in your healthy list. Bond also shows you relevant info while within a certain radius of it, but what it shows is something you won't know without some perk or source of aura reading to show it to you. Why is Bond considered healthy here, but WoO is considered a fundamentally unhealthy "easy mode" perk?
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558823#Comment_3558823
No... those perks aren't "Mid" they are the epitome of what dbd perks should be, alternative abilities you get after completing a certain action, alternatively, if the effect is akin to a basekit buff it should be relatively minor, but worth the slot to bring.
Problem is, survivors only consider perks to be "good" if they are beyond busted.
Let's go over some examples of fundamentally healthy and good perks -
Autodidact
Background Player
Bond
Chemical trap
Decisive strike
empathy
Kindred
Smash Hit
Flashbang
wiretap
etc.
These perks follow the proper balance philosophy of alt abilities or minor basekit buffs that are still worth using.
Now examples of perks that are fundamentally unhealthy but considered "good" by survivors -
MFT
Buckle up
Hope
Resi
Adren
WOO
etc.
Do you notice the pattern here? Survivors only consider perks to be "good" when they essentially turn dbd into easy mode.
Run faster, vault faster and do everything else also faster, Pick your teammate up and be invincible for 10 seconds, have ESP on every single tile so you can artificially path better, get a free healthstate after your team pops all the gens , etc etc... and they all come at the requirement of either *Load into the match* or *be inevitably hit*.
What on earth is fundamentally unhealthy about WoO? I'd buy that it having a super high pickrate could be kind of unhealthy in that it stifles variety, but that's not actually related to what the perk does.
The only thing it even does beyond what general map knowledge and human eyes would also provide is tell you when a teammate has dropped a pallet, which is a pretty fair effect for a perk that is completely deleted by a relatively common status effect.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558823#Comment_3558823
Reassurance is commonly agreed on as being an S tier perk. Not so much now that anti facecamp will be in the game, but it had a year to make it to 25% usage rate. Why didn't it?
Because it's niche.
Pure strength isn't the only thing that governs pickrate. There's also consistency, ease of use, and most crucially, what the perk actually affects. MFT affects chase, directly, and while it isn't easy to use it is very consistent; you'll almost always get the Haste unless the killer has anti-Exhaustion.
The only thing on your list that should have a high pickrate, according to the combo of strength, chase-focus, and consistency, is Troubleshooter, and admittedly I have no idea why that perk isn't more popular. It's comparably strong, much easier to use, and actually helps if you're not a super strong looper on top of helping solo queue more than SWF.
At a guess, I think MFT just overshadowed it. Troubleshooter doesn't have this discourse storm whipped up around it, so people overlook it more. That's just a guess, though.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558611#Comment_3558611
Yes... lower mmr players are indeed expected to improve overtime instead of complaining , thats the whole point.
If low mmrs struggle to hit skillchecks we don't go and make skillchecks easier to hit because that will fundamentally break high mmr and gut skillcheck perks, you just teach them how to listen to the sound cue and practice in order to get good.
If a low mmr claims ghostface is overpowered because of his stealth we don't nerf ghostface, you tell the low mmr to turn his neck and be vigilant.
Perks are a problem when no matter how good you are they are still opressively strong and you can't work around them.
FTP+BU are a great example of something that regardless of how good a killer is, he cannot outplay or work around the insta pickup+10s endurance.
Yes, and, there is a line where something can actually be unfair against lower skilled players.
Original Ruin would be a good example. Higher skilled players hit Great skillchecks much more frequently, meaning they had a pretty decent chance against that perk. Lower skilled players, though, can range from only being able to hit Good skillchecks to not even being able to consistently do that. Ergo, Ruin was a perk that was unfair to lower skilled players even though they were capable of improving their own skill to aid in countering it.
You have to find a middle ground. This goes for any game, not just DBD. Ergo, you balance for everyone and skew towards the average, to make sure that lower skilled players are being given fair challenges without doing too much harm to the experience of higher skilled players. That is the only way of balancing live service games like this that will ever stand a chance of working.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558566#Comment_3558566
Usually you're supposed to provide a valid counter argument with some kind of evidence, not just go "well you're wrong lol".
Perks that are balanced at high mmr are balanced at lower mmrs this is defacto.
A perk *looking* like its good because the other side has severe skill issue is not a *balance problem* it would be like claiming any means necessary is overpowered when you refuse to kick pallets / do chase cleanup.
I did? Things that are balanced at higher MMR will not be balanced at lower MMR because of the inherent skill gap. It's also possible for things to be the other way around, too; something that a low skill player cannot utilise well, but a higher skill player can make absolutely unbearable.
More to the point, though, I am not specifically talking about perks here, I'm talking about the game as a whole. Setups that might be balanced at high MMR might be unbearable for one side lower down the latter; that's the entire reason the term "noobstomper" even exists.
Obviously to some degree lower skilled players should be expected to improve their skill, but there is a point at which it becomes unreasonable to expect a sharp increase in skill in a very short period of time, if something is genuinely unbalanced for lower levels.
Like I said, you balance for everyone and you skew for the average. That just makes sense.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558353#Comment_3558353
That kind of balance perspective is what leads to blatantly busted perk designs.
Balance should inherently be done with the most efficient/ best players in mind.
A perk balanced in high mmr is a balanced perk for any mmr, due to the nature of trickle down Balance.
It's plain obvious to see that if they buffed a perk like hyperfocus because "low-mid mmr players struggle with their skillchecks" , it would lead to absolutely horrible gen slam matches in the high MMRs because people actually hit their skillchecks.
---
Ironically people call mft balanced because of this exact problem. "Well MFT in low ranks has minimal effect, it's only the good loopers that make it seem busted"
Imo, MFT is long overdue for a ol yeller treatment.
This is also incorrect. Things that are balanced at high MMR can be completely, abysmally unplayable at lower MMR, because of the inherent skill gap.
What you actually need to do as a game dev is to balance for everyone, and skew towards the average. You don't ignore what's causing problems higher up, but you do the sensible thing and apply your finite focus more consistently towards the majority. The game needs its newer and lesser skilled players because they are by far a majority in most games, I see no reason to assume it would be different for DBD.
To the wider topic: it's not that Nighlight is always inherently inaccurate, it's that you can't guarantee that the numbers you're seeing are valid. It's usually a good general indicator for top picked things in EU/NA servers, but it's clear that it has a bias that trends towards those two things; it trends towards the top picked stuff and it trends towards EU/NA servers, because of who is uploading their data there.
It's fine to refer to it, but you can't treat its numbers as gospel. You can't say "this specific perk has X% pickrate, that's clearly a problem!" when you have no real way of knowing if that specific number is actually accurate.
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The wiki has the full list, but I know for sure this is the addon that highlights Trapper's bear traps, Freddy's snares, Hag's phantasm traps, and Demogorgon's portals (for some reason).
Killer power stuff.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558175#Comment_3558175
And you legitimately see no problem in the fact that a singular survivor perk requires an entire *build* to counter it?
By game design alone, killer perks are supposed to be 4x stronger than survivor perks, meanwhile here you are defending MFT that throws the core game design out the window.
And are you seriously trying to play off blood echo being a decent perk? By definition *atleast the first chase* is guaranteed MFT value. To get value out of blood echo you need to have people injured while you chase and hook someone else.
But guess what happens when you're chasing someone? 2 survivors can pop heals on one another and delete potential perk value.
And let's say that blood echo does proc. Whats my guarantee that the survivor it proc'd on has MFT or an exhaustion perk to begin with? Blood echo is a dead slot for the vast majority of the match.
Again, an overwhelming majority of killers do not have a way to "catchup" to an mft user to down.
Sure wraith moves fast in cloak mode, but in order to attack he has to bingbong out of cloak and in that time the survivor drops the pallet or W keys further so he still gets severely impacted by MFT.
...Not to be rude, but are you actually reading these posts?
Because I literally said you don't need to dedicate a build to counter MFT. I then gave two reasons why: Most killers have a basekit way of getting their hits beyond basic M1 looping, and any single perk you want to bring to counter MFT is by design going to counter other survivor perks too. My example for the second reason was Blood Echo, I am not pitching solely Blood Echo as the single counter to MFT. I don't think you need a single perk counter to MFT, that is the point I've been arguing this whole time.
And yes, most killers have a way of catching up or getting their hit otherwise. I've already gone over that. To counter your example and only your example: Wraith has his movement speed and post-uncloak lunge, in addition to being a stealth killer who can punish injured survivors more harshly than a non-stealth killer.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557021#Comment_3557021
Preface - Haste and endurance effects should be rare like they used to, MFT needs to be outright deleted/Reworked.
The video is enough of a proof of concept to understand that MFT does indeed provide a significant chase extension. an extra loop just because MFT goes BRR is not okay, if he dropped the pallet, it would have been another 20-30 seconds for the killer to catchup that the MFT user does not deserve.
Everytime people bring up stealthkillers and insta down killers up, I feel like every single time yall are treating survivors as if they have no eyes and the killer player is a 10k hour comp player. or just the simple fact that some maps actively ruin any stealth, like ormond, Borgo, GOJ, Eyerie of crows, etc etc.
Not to mention people trying to claim a certain killer "counters mft" if he brings XYZ Perks and addons just to deal with MFT.
Like, is it really fair to say Myers counters MFT if Im forced to bring Tombstone and inf T3 just to not deal with MFT? Obviously not, because the basic Myers experience has no anti-loop or catch up power.
A perk that mandates the other side to equip a full loadout centered around countering it is fundamentally unhealthy.
To be fair here, you don't need Tombstone Piece specifically to counter MFT as Myers. Pretty much any of Myers' actually viable builds, as I mentioned lightly earlier, are going to counter MFT to one degree or another- Vanity Mirror builds counter it via stealth, hyper-chase builds counter it via longer lunges, faster vaulting, and generally powering through loops, Tombstone Piece counters it via being the most busted single addon in the game, and so on. Myers might struggle with a more generic "hair bow and stalk speed" build, but almost anything else that'll work against any decent survivors will work against MFT.
When it comes to stealth, it's not a case of assuming the killer is a 10k comp player, it's a case of assuming the killer is like, trying? That they have some basic skills to leverage the strengths of the killer they're playing. Taking off angles to fool line of sight, exercising strong map awareness accentuated by info perks, knowing how to mindgame at certain tiles, that kind of thing. Sure, this is hard on a handful of maps, but those are typically outlier scenarios where a stealth killer would struggle anyway, regardless of MFT.
You don't actually have to dedicate a build to counter one perk. For one thing, anything you'd bring to counter MFT works against other strong survivor picks (EG, if you play a killer that can effectively utilise Blood Echo, that Exhaustion debuff counters all Exhaustion perks, as well as MFT. Iron Will too, for that matter.), but for another only a handful of killers would even need to consider that because almost every killer in the game has some basekit method of catching survivors who have a little distance on them.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557621#Comment_3557621
I said the issue was his complexity which likely results in the Killer having a low pick rate.
Right, so it's relevant to point out that having a low pickrate isn't necessarily a bad thing or indicative of poor design.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557526#Comment_3557526
When did I say pick rate was the issue?
...In the post? Your first two sentences are about how frequently you see Singularity in games.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557550#Comment_3557550
so are we pretending that players can't do those already or that seeing a bigger number would make people play in a different way than with a smaller number if everything else was the same? do you honestly think people will just decide to play is a way they think it's boring?
hag already exists and it's not even played like that (on the rare cases I see her). it would very likely be the same for trapper. the option will always be there, as it already is, but it's both boring AND honestly quite bad. barely anyone will bother with it.
there's better characters to hold a 3 gen and the basement.
You can play the boring marathon runner Trapper if you want, but please don't try and shunt the character down that road for everyone
Re: "do you think people would play the boring way": Yes. Yes, I do, for good reason.
I said this in another response, but look at Artist and Knight. What are those two killers notorious for? Dropping a bird/guard at a loop to force survivors to run away for an eventual M1. That is not the most effective or most fun way to play those two killers, but it is the easiest, and that's why so many players flock to it (no pun intended, on Artist's part).
Players will follow the path of least resistance even when it's optimising (ish) the fun out of their experience. Trapper, currently, circumvents this by needing to juggle his traps, thus leading to careful trap placements that aren't all concentrated around the first hook you get being the path of least resistance.
Trapper does need help with his early game, and this new change probably won't fix it outright, but giving him all his traps from the start isn't a good idea.
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@buckk0097 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557536#Comment_3557536
i know i might not seem like it . but ive done alot of that i run after care botany and selfcare. but there is only so much of running these perks to counter sloppy a person can stomach. it is honestly too strong for little effort.
not to mention all the value i would miss on from not running other perks than just healing ones. but i see where you coming from although i still think its overturned and needs a tweak
I'm not talking about Botany/Self-Care, just Botany. Don't try and heal yourself, heal your teammates. It's how you beat Sloppy Butcher; heal altruistically while the killer is occupied. If you have heal speed perks (or a medkit you use on your teammate) it completely counters Sloppy even further if you find the perk especially obnoxious.
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@buckk0097 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557489#Comment_3557489
i want to try and remind you about the pressure killer generates is from injuries, generator hooks and chases, currently selfhealing takes too long. going around to find a survivor wastes a lot of gen pressure for the survivors but the reward is fine.
But when sloppy butcher is included in that same scenario. then it becomes a horribly bad idea. you risk running into the killer injured, you risk a very slow heal by a temmate than can be interupted and cancel the whole progress. which in return just brings survivors to the conclusion bring toolboxes and sweat gens then get adrenaline. THAT is so unhealthy and pushes us to the meta like i said many times.
Finally to address your point of the game encouraging altruism is true and you are correct. but that is a good thing to do by survivors when the is equal value to the time spent. with wraith spirit wesker and such( yes weskers use it blows my mind too) it is not worth the time or risk...with the hemorrhage status effect mainly
Those things are only present if you have zero tools to help out there, and even then, it's really not that big of a deal. There is a risk that the killer will find you while injured, sure, but that's something you can do your best to avoid or deal with via looping when it happens.
But if you have, say, Empathy and Botany Knowledge, you completely counteract Sloppy Butcher and get good team tracking. If Sloppy isn't in play, you save even more time and get even more benefit. You don't need to bring these specific tools, but something to keep track of your teammates and something that speeds up heals are just good ideas to have in general. If your concern is that you don't want to be pushed into the meta, even better: Here's your alternative. No healing perks and no teammate info perks are meta (save maybe Kindred), so you've got a lot of strong off-meta options here.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557494#Comment_3557494
Yes, go into the DbD category and then sort by language.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YAOTUO9V3F8X/korean.png
Self-Care always has been and still is an ubiquitously used perk in the Korean region, and there's some really good players there using it, too. SWF not being popular at all over there likely has something to do with it, but even in general I do not think of SC as a bad perk. Although Botany and/or Desperate Measures are nice to have alongside it.
Here's one streamer I know that's on right now, using SC: https://www.twitch.tv/chumbo1026
Sick, appreciate the head's up! I'll check that out later when I have some more spare time.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557469#Comment_3557469
Watch Korean streams on twitch.
@ Stats:
I'm a bit surprised Hope hasn't made it into the top 10 with the advent of MFT. MFT is definitely a problematic perk against M1 killers, but the combo with Hope is just completely busted.
Does Twitch have a "sort by region" option? I don't actually use the platform very frequently, lol.
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@buckk0097 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557425#Comment_3557425
correct me if iam wrong but the only alturistic healing buff that came with the healing nerf patch was boon COH going back to 100percent and aura reading on injured temmates. the medkits already had those effects and nothing else changed ?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557430#Comment_3557430
Thank you @crogers271 for taking time to read my in between replies as well. as sign of respect i shall address all the suggestion you have here:
Hemorrhage could be turned way down. If it dropped at a much slower rate, like a kicked gen, there would still be a reason to try and finish the heal. The killer would still get value, survivor time wasted, but it wouldn't be such a devastating impact.
I love this suggestion the most. this solves the biggest issue for everything mentioned before as a complaints in this perk. the main reason people wont go for the heal because its slow and can be reverted/ interrupted.
2nd option: split it into two perks, one for the hemorrhage, one for the mangled, but also make each slightly stronger. When I first encountered the perk as a new killer I was so surprised you got two good powers with a single perk.
while i totally agree this perk has 2 strong effect together like the same problem with MFT. i think if we split the effects and buff them it will send the problem to other killers and powers. for example addons that can inflict this on huntress or Xeno it would be like shuffling the issue around.
3rd option: proposed by a few people on here, make perks like resurgence, reactive healing, and solidarity cancel out the mangled/hemorrhage effect. Even if the killer isn't running Sloppy, none of these perks are that great, but sloppy absolutely destroys them. Giving them the power to provide additional protection would make them potentially worthwhile
I think this suggestion should be a must no matter what the change to sloppy or healing would be. its crazy that you sacrifice a perk slot for one of these and end up useless for the entire match quite frequently.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557451#Comment_3557451
My brother in christ, I have absolutly no clue what you talking about could you please be more gentle with the numbers i only have 5 brain cells and they cant all work together at the same time.
The numbers on medkits were raised, iirc. Either way, the changes made the medkits comparatively more effective at healing your teammates, which is pretty clear encouragement to use them that way.
Everything else that already made healing your teammates speedy and effective wasn't changed, which means that they're still extremely worth running.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557454#Comment_3557454
RE: Self Care. It's worth noting that metas are not the same around the world. Different regions have totally different dominant playstyles and meta perks. Regions which rely less on teamwork and more on self sufficiency have much higher use rates for Self Care, and that drives the global average up.
I've always been so curious how those players use SC in a way that makes it so valuable. I'll have to look into any recordings I can find online or something, it's fascinating.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
1) Dead Hard is the best exhaustion perk to combo with Made For This.
2) Dead Hard is also good for people that want to do Buckle Up + For The People combo, because they lose a health state when they For The People someone else.
3) It's also good for the "stay injured" theme that a lot of survivors like doing, where they have perks like resilience, and priority generators over being healed.
4) It's also good because people aren't expecting it all the time anymore, and so many killers will just try to immediately attack when they can, so the first dead hard is usually a free health state because of that.
5) We still have a lot of survivors that can Dead Hard on reaction to a killer lunge. Neither of the Dead Hard changes actually addressed that problem.
Sure, but even with all those things combined (though I'm not sure I agree with all of them) it still pales in comparison to the actually strong Exhaustion perks.
I do think familiarity and habit has more to do with it than this list. Most of that is only on pretty high-skilled survivor's minds to begin with, and these are global numbers for all skill ranges and regions.
Still, ultimately just a minor surprise. Can't say I could complain about it having a 10% pickrate, I'm just a little taken aback by it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Dead Hard is STILL in the top 10, and it might see increased use after the anti-camp update, because there will be less survivors being hit immediately after being unhooked.
Old habits Dead Hard, I suppose.
It's such a shell of what it was that I'm surprised it's still so high. Must be familiarity with it that leaves it so high? Or maybe a lot of players just like the timing minigame of parrying a killer.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557165#Comment_3557165
When you make something harder to do, people likely want to do it less. Encourage is to make it easier so people do it more.
The problem there is that altruistic healing specifically was made easier. Even the two changes in 6.7.0 - medkits and Circle of Healing - made altruistic healing easier and more effective.
Players right now have a ton of tools that make altruistic healing much easier, quicker, and beneficial. The problem is that people refuse to use them, not that they aren't being encouraged to use them.