jesterkind
jesterkind
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553703#Comment_3553703
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553706#Comment_3553706
Tell me in what planet is a 5 gen pop + exit gate open + escapes realistically a "tie".
A 2 man escape automatically implies all 5 gens were done *hence Killer lost at his effective main goal.* when killer can bruteforce a 1-2K just by camping in endgame I'd be hard pressed to call that a Tie, its more akin to consolation kills than anything, much to the likes of a hatch escape being a consolation escape than a survivor win.
The survivors as a team made it out, they effectively won as a *team*, just because they lost 1-2 people in the process doesn't mean the team didn't effectively win.
Your win condition as a killer is to kill the survivors, not to prevent the generators from being done.
Preventing generators from being done is your goal while you're in a match, because that's what gives you the time to achieve your win condition, which is killing survivors. That's how the game is designed.
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...Not struggling against your opponents makes you bad at the game?
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553501#Comment_3553501
Did this man just forget that :
Distortion deletes aura perks
Calm spirit deletes scream perks
Sprintburst bails you out if you're out of position
Lithe bails you out out of a bad z/L wall / filler pallet
FTP+BU allows you to pick a teammate up with 10s of endurance before the killer can even finish the wipe animation
DH still allows you to erase a mistake and prolong chase
Adren gives you a full healthstate/pickup when your teammates across the map pop the last gen
Hope gives you a perma 7% for the same conditions as adren
Toolboxes , especially commodius lets you crank out over half a gen in 10-15 seconds.
And to top it all off, you bring up a mechanic that BHVR introduced to bandaid fix bad map design / infinites as a "gotcha moment".
...Are you implying all of those things are overpowered?
The only overpowered things on this list are Buckle Up + For The People, and giga toolboxes. The rest range from strong but fair to outright weak.
None of them nullify your killer, either, if that's the part they're meant to be countering. At best you could argue Calm Spirit is particularly potent against Doctor, but let's not pretend that makes it OP or renders you literally powerless.
I don't agree with the person you're responding to, Bloodlust is a healthy mechanic, but this is a weird rebuttal.
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To be fair, just because a killer is at P1 doesn't mean they're totally new, or unskilled. They could just not play that killer very frequently but still have a solid grasp of how to play killer fundamentals. Prestige is only an indicator of how many bloodpoints are spent on that one character.
I don't know what's happening in your matches, but in mine - for either side - the killer definitely doesn't win by default. Solo survivor is hard due to your teammates being unpredictable, but it's far from unwinnable. Maybe there's something to do with your build or playstyle that could be improved? There's nothing you can do to fully correct for potato teammates, but that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do to improve your experience at all.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553045#Comment_3553045
Sadako is trash against decent or better Survivors. She was reworked because Survivors did not like the Condemned strat. Doctor was reworked because Survivors did not like constant building of madness. SM reworked because of the 3 gen. Killers get big changes because they are bothering Survivors.
In regards to your amateur hour psychoanalysis of me, absolute nonsense.
I don't think Doctor is a good example of this take. Doctor and Leatherface both got considerably better after their reworks, and while they were a little before my time, everything I've seen indicates they were actually changed because they were both weak and clunky and difficult to use. There's also the smaller reworks to consider here, like Legion and Ghostface - those are big changes, no doubt, but they happened because those killers were struggling, not because of survivors complaining.
It also kinda implies that survivors aren't right to complain, too. Obviously Doctor and Sadako were reworked more because of their strength level being too low, but when it comes to something like Skull Merchant where it was more to do with player feedback... are those complaints not pretty valid?
Sadako's pretty good, by the way. It took everyone a little while to figure out how to play as and against her, but now the dust's settled she's a killer with a lot going for her. Hell, bringing Iri Tape and the... I forget, the green addon that gives you loud noise notifications when someone takes out a tape, can make her borderline overpowered.
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I'm a big fan of jesters and associated mocking clown types, so that part's a no-brainer. The suffix -kind comes from Homestuck, where it denotes that someone fights using that concept, EG bladekind for swords and knives.
So, I guess I fight with clowns, with that logic. I suppose you could read it as me being simply of the same ilk as those jingling menaces, but I'll always know the true meaning of it.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552797#Comment_3552797
Just like I said to other person 5 seconds ago and you a million times already, the strategy you seem being the best and how you play the game has nothing to do with the mathematical fact that the base progression of two survivors in a gen is so high that is the core of all those other problems that you yourself have mention, like two survivors spawning near a gen or toolboxes and progression perks being so effective.
And even if they reduced the base progression multiplier for two survivors, it won't change that it would be better to split up for "insert reason". So, why are you using it as a counter argument to something that is not influenced in any way, shape or form by it???
Seriously, it is really so hard to understand? Because I don't know how it can be so hard to understand a simple and explained fact.
That's what I'm trying to convey - two survivors on a gen cannot be the core of the problem when the problem is survivors splitting up. The core of the problem is that survivors with good gen speed bonuses all working on separate generators does far more damage to the killer's ability to pressure than survivors grouping up to do one generator faster.
Mathematically, the killer is worse off when survivors split up. I am not arguing from the survivor side here, I am arguing from the killer side; the fact that reducing the base progression multiplier wouldn't change anything is why I contest it. I don't want survivors encouraged to split up, because I would like the gen speed problem to be fixed, not made worse.
Your simple and explained fact is inaccurate. I understand it perfectly, and because I understand it, I know that it is wrong. You're only looking at how long it takes to do one generator, not how long it takes to do all five, which is the relevant number when we're talking about generator speed problems.
As simply as I can put it: Survivors grouping up do fewer generators at once, they do multiple generators slower, and they are far, far easier to interrupt and counter with regression. That is, mathematically, not a bad situation for the killer. Even the numbers you give support that, because the numbers you give add up to considerably slower than the alternative for all five generators.
The numbers you've been giving are lacking vital context for understanding how this game actually plays and where the problem scenarios are. It's not enough to look at a single generator's completion speed in a vacuum, you're going to come to inaccurate conclusions if that's the only thing you're taking into account.
To sum up, in as few words as possible (hard for me, I'm chronically wordy, so bear with me): Your job as a killer is to interrupt generator repairs to keep as many survivors occupied as possible. If survivors are grouped up, they may get more progress on one generator, but that is the ideal situation as killer because it means the regression you apply is more potent and there aren't more generators with progress lurking elsewhere on the map.
One generator popping during your first chase is nowhere near as troublesome as three generators popping just after your first hook.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552805#Comment_3552805
i mostly meant stuff like killer and survivor add ons, they were adjusted but the majority of them are still expense especially considering some of them are very weak and some downright useless except for very specific situations (cough septic agent cough)
I don't really think they need to be adjusted further, but I was really only responding to your comment that "the least they could do" is make things less expensive because... they did do that. They did make things less expensive. It's pretty unfair to pretend they didn't because you'd prefer more of a reduction, y'know?
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@totallynotamegmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552224#Comment_3552224
They wanted to remove incentives that made people use certain perks for only BP
but they least they could have done was give us more base kit BP or made things less expensive, the grind nowadays is worse than ever and it only gets worse with each new character added
They did do that? They did both of those things. After removing the BP bonus from BBQ and WGLF, they adjusted bloodpoint caps in match, started offering more ways of earning bloodpoints via role queue incentives and other sources, and make things considerably cheaper within the bloodweb.
The Prestige changes also stopped the grind from getting exponentially worse with each new character. They did actually fix these problems.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552625#Comment_3552625
No, what you are failing to understand, again, is that you are using specific "realistic average" scenarios to argue against mathematical facts affecting every single scenario you could come up with. I'm talking theoretical proved possibilities, you are talking real strategies used.
To expand: It is a fact that survivors can do gens in less than 2:40 minutes with at least 3 survivors escaping while the killer is doing it's job without making any mistakes. I think we all can agree that this is asinine. So, why can this happen? How even random survivors that are not hardcore speedrunners are able to make a match that should last at least 6 - 7 minutes only last from 3 to 5 minutes. What is the root of this problem.
It is spawn points? Well, obviously 3 survivors spawning in the other corner of the map beside a gen can affect this, but not to that point. It is items? Perks? Again, they help making gen faster, but unless you equip every single progression bonus there is they should not make as much of a difference taking in count the percentages they bring.
So, where is the problem? Well, just by having two survivors on one gen without any other bonus to progression shaves off almost 37 seconds of the gen, so two survivors spawning besides a gen would have it done in 53 seconds. If they are undisturbed and go to other gen after, they would be able to make two gens in just 16 seconds more than one survivor doing just one gen. And being that high, every bonus percentage to progression is even higher, making those times even shorter. So here is the root that is causing all that problems: Base progression for multiple survivors on one gen are too high.
"But doing all gens in 2:40 minutes it's an extreme and needs specific builds, and coordination, and..." But the problem is having the gen times floor so low! Even if your regular day Dwight and his room temperature IQ friends won't be able to pull off a 3 minutes match, they maybe are able to pull a 4:30 minute match by chance, because there is nothing that prevents them to do so. And a 4:30 minute match (and I had a lot of those) is a total average of 54 seconds per gen, by the way. And that assuming they spent those 4:30 minutes only doing gens, so...
"But survivors grouping up in a gen is bad for survivors and..." NOBODY CARES! NUMBERS DON'T CARE! BASE GAME MECHANICS DON'T CARE! How people play the game and what strategy is the best doesn't change the root of all the problems that had being affecting the game about gen times for years now.
So this is the whole thing explained as best as I could. And if after all this you can't understand where are you failing still, I can't do anything more for you.
I think what you're still failing to get here is that the mathematical numbers you're referring to are what proves why you're wrong.
In fact, I think the clearest indication of why can be found in your post here, where you have to concoct a scenario where two survivors are completely uninterrupted while they repair two generators, all so they can achieve the incredible goal of doing those two generators... slower than if they'd split up.
Why would they be uninterrupted? What is the killer doing during this time? This is my point. If survivors have no super fast gen speed tools, and if they're grouping up on generators, your skill will affect how fast those generators fly, because you're right- if they're left to their own devices, it's not that hard to finish generators pretty quickly because there's no real skill component to repairing beyond not missing a pretty generous timing minigame now and again. Your job is to make sure that they aren't left to their own devices, and you do have time to do that.
You might pivot to saying that if they group up on their first generator the killer doesn't have time to interrupt it, and while I disagree with that, let's take it at face value for a moment. Okay, you lost one generator. The survivors have no other gen progression to speak of if they've grouped up (maybe a single other generator at somewhere around half if they went 2/2), so they still have four generators to repair, at default speed, while you're trying to stop them. That plus the exit gate time if it gets that far. I don't see how this is a problem for a killer that's actively trying to stop them.
I'm going to use your argumentative strategy for a second here; "They can shave 37 seconds off a gen..." It doesn't matter! How long it takes one generator to be finished isn't as important as how many generators are being repaired at once, and if they're grouped up, that means your worst case scenario is losing one generator before you've got a hook and the game begins in earnest. Even in this worst case scenario, if survivors keep trying to group up, you have so many opportunities to leverage that and generate pressure it's staggering. That's not even mentioning what happens when you do get there in time to interrupt it, because then generator repair completely grinds to a halt for a short while.
Again, I am not arguing that there is a strategy which is just better than grouping up. I am explaining why grouping up is a bad choice in most scenarios and why you as a killer should be happy to see survivors do it. I am explaining why grouping up will not lead to generators flying too fast for a killer to get a win unless that killer is AFK... or unless there's something about their build or gameplay that needs improving.
Grouping up and the progression numbers it leads to cannot be the root of all problems when it's not a good strategy to begin with. You've referred to gen speed tools working off a higher percentage, and that's true, but even in your post about an addonless toolbox (for some reason) you admit that the gen speed from one of the strongest single sources there is doesn't overcome the default inefficiency of grouping up on generators. It's when those strong tools are used on multiple generators at once that it starts to take away killer agency, and guess what; if they're nerfed, that means they'll be less useful on survivors grouping up, too.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552602#Comment_3552602
Well, again, I don't know how the most efficient strategies to use has anything to do with base progression times being too high. In other words, you are trying to (again) use specific situations where it is not a "big problem" to argue against a base problem affecting every match.
And that was not what you argued in first place, what you said is the problem was spawn points and toolboxes, not base progression of two or more survivors and I already proved that you are wrong. The only thing you are doing now is, again, trying to derailing the argument in another direction so you could now make the point of "but the smart and fast thing to do is...!". Something that as I said, I never was so sure it was the smart thing to do, anyways.
Mathematically, it makes sense. 3 survivors in one gen each = 3 c/s, so more charges getting fed to gens. But it also gives the killer 90 seconds to find someone, chase him, down him, hook him, have the chance of use a regression perk like PR and make one of you have to leave the gen to do the save, while the killer find another one and chase him, and then he get the wonderful and perfect 1/1/1/1 situation so mentioned here.
With at least two survivors in one gen, it would mean less charges (2 survivors in one gen = 1.7 c/s, another in other gen 1 c/s, 2.7 c/s total) but yet again, you would only give him 53 seconds to do all that before you get a gen done and secured, without any probability of it getting regressed, another gen with only 37 charges to go and two of you free to go do a save/heal and the other to keep doing gens or distract the killer while the 3º one finish his solo gen. Yes, if the killer comes and disturb you it would be 1.7 c/s less while it happens, but the moment the killer decide to chase one of you the other can simply continue repairing the gen with minimum loss on gen repairing.
But yet again, this is a whole other topic based on subjective things. Getting back on point: The big and real problem of gens flying is that with only two survivors and base progression they would shave off 37 seconds from the gen. With PT, almost 40. And from there, every single perk or item that add a bonus to progression would lower that number. That's why they should make so the times saved goes from 20 with two survivors to the 50 that 4 survivors in one gen can save, because it would make the minimum times a gen can be done higher and effectively reduces the bonus that toolboxes and perks grants (and if some ends up being too much weaker, a buff would be needed to those things to make them useful).
And that is an irrefutable fact. It is the big disease that is causing the problem and trying to treat the symptoms of it because survivors like what that disease causes like BHVR is currently doing would not resolve anything. If you don't have any more "counter" to this, again, have a nice day.
Right, I think I see where I'm failing to communicate here.
It's not that splitting up is "the smart and fast" thing to do. It's that grouping up is slow and inefficient. Generators are done slower if survivors group up. This is an undeniable fact, the only way you can think generators get done faster when survivors group up is if you only look at how long it takes to do a single generator rather than all five.
There's really not much more to it than that. Grouping up is both slower and riskier, and so therefore it is more favourable to the killer than the alternative. Generators do not fly when survivors group up, because they are done slower. I'm not making the argument that if you want the highest chances of escaping you shouldn't group up, I'm saying grouping up lowers your chances of escaping (in most contexts, with exceptions, naturally).
That's why my initial post is still correct, because if survivors are grouping up on generators, the killer has a lot of agency to react to that with their skill and macro strategy.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552582#Comment_3552582
So, the answer is no, you won't admit you were wrong and you are going to keep with the mental gymnastic on top of grasping straws (I didn't take in count addons as I didn't take in count any perk, because we are comparing bases here) and ignoring points and facts (as toolboxes and perks, addons or not, are percentage based so making the base progression lower would also make those less effective) and trying to derail the argument to other not relevant points (like technically splitting up being the smart move instead of grouping up. Even if it was the case, something I was never so sure about, it is not relevant.).
That is all I had to say about your whole post. So much irrelevant stuff that it is not worth to even try to answer, and the few legit points that are relevant I already answered in previous post, so read them if you are interested, and have a nice day.
I answered your post very specifically, my friend. Your point is that survivors grouping up on generators gives them too much extra speed. My counter argument to that is that they only get one generator done, which is less efficient than spending slightly longer on multiple generators, and that it leaves them open to being interrupted + having far more of their overall progression regressed.
It's not just that splitting up is the smart move, it's that splitting up is how generator speeds can fly without the killer being able to do anything about it. If they're grouping up, the combination of inefficiency and increased pressure from interruptions + regression makes that favourable for you, not too fast for you to do anything about.
If those points don't counter yours, I will readily admit that I have no idea what you were trying to convey.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552474#Comment_3552474
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
I'm... not sure I'm following.
There's a lot that seems to be wrong here. First of all, your numbers seem to only be looking at the Commodious Toolbox without any addons or perks supporting it, which... I'm not going to argue that the Commodious Toolbox isn't as damaging to the killer if it's used on its own. I agree with that, it's when they're built into with strong addons and supporting perks that they become overpowered.
The more important thing here though is that you keep talking about survivors grouping up? Survivors grouping up do generators faster in terms of raw numbers as applied to that one generator, yes, but they do generators overall slower because they aren't split up. If we're talking about generator speeds, if we're talking about the killer not being able to do anything about how fast generators fly in their matches, we will never be looking at survivors that group up. We'll be looking at survivors who spread out over multiple generators at once, and only double up when it comes to the last generator, because that is overall faster and harder for the killer to pressure. It's objectively the stronger tactic and the one that actually makes generator speeds difficult if it happens at the very start of the match.
You want survivors grouped up. That's much less generator progression overall and it's an opportunity to pressure more than one survivor at once when you go to interrupt it. If you've got some tool that'll take off a bunch of progression at once, like Pop or Pain Res, you do immense damage to their overall objective progression if they were grouped up on the generator you just applied it to.
If you nerf the efficiency of survivors grouping up on generators (even more than it already is inefficient), things will get worse for you as killer, not better, because it would incentivise survivors to do the stronger tactic and split up.
Let's look at two scenarios:
- In scenario one, all four survivors have stacked toolboxes and spawn spread out, each starting to repair a separate generator as soon as they load in for a total of four generators actively being repaired.
- In scenario two, the survivors spawn in groups of two, and each group up on the closest generator they spawn to for a total of two generators being repaired.
In scenario two, you might see one generator pop while you're still in chase, but that's it. They'll have that one generator done, and because you pressured them away from the other generator, they basically have no other objective progress. Compare that to scenario one, where you only pressure a survivor away from one generator and leave three still being actively repaired. That is much more objective progress even if you manage to get the down before those other three generators are completed, because you're at minimum going to see two generators pop with serious progress on a third even if you get a reasonably fast down and reach a generator in time after the hook.
If they're grouped up, your skill matters and my actual point applies. If they're spread out but they don't have anything for gen speed, it's harder but my point still applies. It's when they're spread out and have strong gen speed tools that things start getting out of hand.
TL;DR, I guess, the speed of one generator isn't the only thing that matters. How much progress there is on other generators when that first one pops is easily just as important, if not moreso.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552436#Comment_3552436
And you see absolutely no problem with killer being forced to either only play nurse and blight , or being pigeonholed into playing 4 slowdowns, or dedicating 25-50% of a build to have a marginally fairer match IF the survivors don't bring distortion and outright delete your LP?
When survivors already play with 5-6 perks thanks to basekit BT+ items , it makes no sense to not extend the same benefit to killer with either basekit LP or basekit corrupt.
None of those things are true. You can play any killer you like and do well (with maybe the exception of Trapper, where it's a bit more up to luck), playing 4 slowdowns is honestly kind of a bad idea if they don't synergise with each other, and you only have to dedicate a perk to a better early game if you struggle with the early game. Personally, I never take Lethal Pursuer off (excepting for gimmick builds), but that's just my preference; you don't need it. I also want to mention that one of my suggestions there was for perks that would be useful throughout the entire match, so it's not just reacting to a poor early game; perks like Discordance help early on and once the match has gotten into the swing of things, for example.
Basekit Corrupt isn't an idea I'd consider tremendously terrible for the game, but I would consider it kind of a clumsy bandaid. It'd be better to tackle the problem at its source- stop survivors from spawning all spread out from one another, and nerf toolboxes. That would give killer players much more consistent early games, and stop dedicated genrushing teams from snowballing well ahead of where most killers can keep up.
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I like running perks where kicking generators is rewarded- my standard, go to, works-on-almost-everyone killer build includes Nowhere To Hide and Eruption, so kicking a generator prior to taking the chase makes a lot of sense with that build equipped. There's also Pop, Trail of Torment, and... a few others I'm forgetting right now, that I run sometimes.
Otherwise, I'd probably do it after getting the hook. It's rarely super impactful, but hey, extra bloodpoints and a tiny bit of regression isn't nothing.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552459#Comment_3552459
A lot of words that even if they are not untrue still ignores the main problem: The min times of gens are absurd, and need to be addressed. Again, it is not the exception of a full SWF squad trying to beat the world record what is the problem, the problem is survivors having the capacity of doing gens in less than 30 seconds even if they don't shave off all that much time in all games. Again, without any toolbox, without any perk, without doing great skillchecks, just two survivors doing a gen, they would do it in 52.94 seconds approx. This is the true problem.
And about gen speed in your control: I don't think you know what "control" means. All of the things you said there depends greatly in how survivors play and what they allow you to do. And if you don't use a killer with strong chase or anti-loop power, even less. If a survivor decide to take you to a tour around every single pallet around the map, no matter what you do, how many times you try to mindgame or how good you are in general, he will make you lose your time and you would be forced to break chase, leaving him free to keep doing gens while you look for your next chase. In what point here is the killer in control of anything?
Again, I'm not saying skill is not a factor, but that doesn't means that there isn't an intrinsic problem with gens times that should be fixed.
Then what are you arguing in relation to my post? I already acknowledged that the potential minimum times need reigning in, but I'm not arguing about potential minimums, I'm arguing realistic averages. In the average match, you are not facing survivors who have those tools or even the inclination/coordination to use them. It's not relevant to my point.
I did say "to a degree", because obviously you can't completely control gen speeds. It's a multiplayer game, your opponents have some control and can exercise their skill just as much as you can exercise yours. What I mean by control is that things which are under your control have a massive influence on survivor efficiency, because you as the killer have the ability to pressure multiple survivors at once.
To your argument about survivors taking you on a tour around every pallet on the map, that is hilariously map based. Sure, if they're playing Garden of Joy, Badham, or the Game (depending on your killer on that last one), that'll work, but other maps are actually meaningfully limited in their resources. That specific chase might be extended, but future chases will have a fraction of the resources to work with.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, to be clear, I am saying that the problem both isn't present in the average match and does not revolve around the base speed of generators when it is present. It's spawns, and toolboxes, typically a combination of both.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552446#Comment_3552446
That you are ignoring the fact even when pointing it out. The problem is not that a well coordinated group with builds and toolboxes can do the gens that fast, the problem is that they can do them that fast in the first place.
So, while you are partly right (I would love for you to explain how the killer has any control on gen speed), the skill of the killer is not the only factor on gens flying faster than it should, and arguing "skill issue" as being the only problem like you are doing is wrong and deceptive.
Gen times should be touched. If adding max charges or reducing base progression is a no-no as survivor would cry that they hate to do gens and would need to stay in one place more time, they at least should make the penalty for having multiple survivors in one gen higher, so 2 survivors can't shave off 40 seconds of a gen just by repairing it together.
When this is done, then we can talk about the skill issues of killer that are not able to stop gen progression effectively.
I moved past the exception because it is just that, an exception. When survivors bring those tools and spawn on four separate generators at the start, yes, gens do fly and you don't have much control over it. I would support actions taken to address both parts of that situation; survivor spawns, and gen speed tools, mostly just toolboxes.
However, as I said, that is not every match. Even matches where more than one survivor just has a generally good toolbox but aren't coordinated enough to be on separate gens from the start aren't anywhere near that damaging for you as a killer, even if the toolboxes are still too strong. Implying or stating that is the case in the average match would be wrong and deceptive.
Gen speeds are in your control (to a degree) as killer because you have the ability to spread your pressure. I've made this point on the forums before, but I'll raise it again: The more survivors you have occupied, the fewer can be on generators. One hooked, one in chase, one going for the save cuts the generator efficiency down by 75% if everyone's alive. That's a massive reduction in generator speeds for as long as you maintain that situation, which if you're both good in chase and good at macro strategy, is pretty frequently. That's where skill comes in.
Gen times don't need to be touched. They especially should not make grouping up on a generator even worse, because that would incentivise spreading out, which is so much harder to deal with as killer. If two survivors are on a generator, congrats, you've occupied two survivors when you go there, not just one. What needs to be touched is a combination of spawns (to stop outlier situations where all four survivors are spread out) and toolboxes (because they're really the glue that holds actual genrushing builds together, everything else is dramatically less useful without a toolbox).
It's important to mention the skill component because otherwise people might end up not realising where they're going wrong, and blame the game for it. In a majority of your matches, unless you're unlucky enough to be running into Team Eternal frequently, your skill affects gen speeds. In a majority of matches, you will be the deciding factor in how efficient the survivors can be, because a majority of matches aren't against ultra-coordinated 4-man groups.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552416#Comment_3552416
Of course. The fact that survivors can do 5 gens in 2:40 minutes total doesn't have anything to do with generators flying. If a killer have any type of gameplay problem, is purely because skill issues. Everybody knows that.
You're well aware I highlighted outlier scenarios like that, so what's the point of this response?
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A little, but not for the reasons I suspect most would think. Tunnelling is a tool, and one that can be done to great effect, but if you aren't actually in a position where it can be done that way, it's a detriment.
I don't want to waste a ton of time trying to tunnel someone out if it isn't going to happen quickly, that's just giving the team uncontested generator time. I don't want to shrink all my pressure down to the one area I'm chasing this one survivor, that's going to leave my map pressure nonexistant.
People think of tunnelling as easy mode, because getting someone out of the trial ASAP is good for you, but it's not an instant-win tactic. If you don't do it smartly and at the right times, it's gonna hurt your chances of winning more than it helps.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552416#Comment_3552416
That is blatantly untrue and you know it...
Killer early game more often than not starts on a 90-45 second timer to find, chase, down and hook just the first guy.
The time it takes to *find and down* an average player on ideal circumstances still takes close to 60-90 seconds.
Meanwhile since it took 60-90 seconds to get your first down *in ideal circumstances* 2 gens pop, with a 3rd and 4th one starting to be worked on.
The game either needs a pseudo slowdown in the form of survivor spawn fixes, or killer needs to be given some basekit slowdown just so the game doesn't end in 5-6 minutes.
I absolutely do not know that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I know the exact opposite.
If you're struggling with your early game, there are things you can do to mitigate that. The silver bullet to guarantee a better early game would be either Corrupt Intervention or Lethal Pursuer, and I do definitely recommend either if you have either of them, but you can learn survivor spawns to better pressure survivors straight away, as well as equipping some other perks to either aid in your first chase (EG, chase perks like Enduring or Bamboozle or whatever works best for your killer) or to give better information throughout the trial (EG, Discordance to know when you can get massive gen pressure early on or something like Whispers/Darkness Revealed/Ultimate Weapon to give you a general idea where early survivors are).
I do think survivor spawns need to be fixed so they can't spawn all spread out, I already acknowledged that as an outlier situation where you kinda do struggle by default, but I don't think that happens frequently enough for every game to have impossibly fast generators outside your control. You can improve your play and your build to slow down the game, it is doable.
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Barring for very specific exceptions (like a team with all good toolboxes who spawn on separate gens from the start), if your gens are flying super fast, it's probably your fault. That's not an insult or a condemnation, it should be a relief- if it's your fault, you can fix it.
Considering how much control the killer has these days over the speed of their gens, I do genuinely think there are probably things you should be looking at yourself. If the survivors don't all have top tier genrushing tools, you've got a ton of room to exercise your skill and slow down the generators yourself.
Your build is a good place to start. Slowdown perks are useful, but more important than just having them is them working as part of a coherent build. You can get away with just one slowdown perk if it works cohesively with your other three perks and your playstyle, after all. Then you can look at your macro play, and how well you're spreading your pressure, to see if you're maybe getting tunnel-vision on chases that take too long or on one specific survivor at the cost of giving the team uncontested generator time.
The cumulative changes that have happened to generator time, to slowdown and speedup tools, to chases, and to maps really do add up. The state of the game is really pretty good when it comes to your skill giving you good returns regarding generator time.
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Anti facecamp doesn't equate to basekit Deliverance. That perk works regardless of whether the killer is camping you or not, so it's still just straight up stronger on those grounds. The anti facecamp system should only do something if you're camping, which is what it's designed for and what you shouldn't be doing. Also, SWF doesn't make a difference here.
We know a FOV slider is in the works and coming at some point.
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I feel like some people might be wilfully misinterpreting this response.
Now, as a disclaimer, I'm not necessarily defending this statement, as I personally think they could easily add in something for hitting Prestige 100 that wouldn't be so much it causes the problem they want to avoid, but I do think specifically likening it to FOMO store practices kind of misses the point that BHVR are making, at least in my view. I'm also obviously not defending the FOMO store practices themselves.
My interpretation of this response is that they don't want Prestige 100 to be a thing players feel they're supposed to be working towards. They don't want it to feel like the default assumption that obviously you're gonna grind for ages to hit that milestone to get the flashy cool cosmetic tied to it, because grinding to P100 takes forever and would absolutely frustrate players who don't already feel like doing it. If the reward for hitting P100 is too good, people are going to feel like they have to - or at least should - undertake that grind themselves. If it's not good enough, it'll be kinda insulting for the people who did grind for it.
If you dangle an actually cool and desirable thing behind a massive grind, more players are going to choose to undertake that grind, which can be a problem when it's not actually designed to be something every player does. Most players would be frustrated with how long it takes to get the cool thing, which BHVR want to avoid because it's not meant to be something you do in order to get a cool reward. It's meant to be there, as they say, for if you've done everything else.
FOMO store practices are the literal opposite of this concept; they're meant to push players to engage with the thing (purchasing skins, in this case) if they'd otherwise be on the fence, because they'd lose the chance otherwise. Two different arguments are happening here.
That being said, I do think there is a middle ground here and there could be appropriate P100 rewards. I just want to criticise BHVR on what they're actually saying, and I think too many people are laser-focusing on the specific two words "missing out" without engaging with the wider point- which, as far as I can tell, is that P100 should not be a thing you choose to do because you want what's at the end of it, due to it being a long and irritating grind for even one character, let alone all the characters you might play.
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@[Deleted User] said:
BBQ&Chilli had the BP bonus removed, but that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. Funny how it was removed and no one complained about it prior to removal, it actually encouraged going for different survivors.
No idea why they removed it. Should have kept the bonus on it and on the survivor perk that had it. WGLF?
It was removed in 6.1.0, an update with the explicit intention of pushing players to use different perks after the community at large complained about the stale meta not changing for years. Given BBQ was one of the most commonly run perks and people were very open about running it for the bloodpoints, BHVR made the choice to remove the bloodpoint bonus while also massively reducing the grind that made that so desirable in the first place.
At the wider topic, I can't think of any off the top of my head. I suppose you could argue Pain Resonance getting the tracking taken off it could count?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552024#Comment_3552024
the reason why they're changing skull merchant is specifically because survivor dislike playing against 3 gen skull merchant so yes intention was to make her less effective. as you put it, worthless. on bright side, at least she will be causing any trouble.
I'm not the one who said worthless, OP is. They also implied the dev's intention is to make her worthless, which isn't evidenced either by what the devs have said or by basic logic.
I'm not actually arguing about the state of Skull Merchant here, that's not what this is.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551913#Comment_3551913
OP is being critical of her PTB state.
OP is stating quite clearly that they think putting out a skin for a character that has been made worthless is shameless. The connection being drawn between those two things - releasing a skin and making the character worthless - heavily implies they think the dev's intention was to make the character worthless, because the criticism is completely incoherent otherwise. What could you be criticising if you understand the devs are trying to improve the character? Why would them releasing a skin for a character they're releasing (intended) improvements to be shameless?
This specific post makes zero sense. That's what I'm responding to. Whether the character actually is worthless doesn't really make a difference here.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551508#Comment_3551508
they're weakening her because of major complaints in regards to her 3 gen. it is similar to what Pulsar is tends to say. At least Pulsar will be correct very soon when he says that the killer is only good in 3 gens with the irony of being weak at 3 gens.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551778#Comment_3551778
ptb version is inferior freddy.
BHVR have the stated (and obviously intuitive) goal of making her weaker at 3-genning while making her stronger at everything else. Whether you feel they succeeded or not doesn't change their intent, which is what OP is trying to leverage to make this insane criticism.
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My guess would be, not the next patch and probably not the one after it either, but anything beyond that is fair game.
Could be that they manage to get it done sooner, but I prefer to be conservative with my estimates.
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When I first started the game (and I didn't play as much survivor in general) I was really drawn to Jane. She has a cool look, her backstory is interesting, and her perks.... well, she has a cool look and her backstory is interesting. She's the only survivor I have with the pre-6.1.0 Prestige background that got given out, since I played her so much that I cycled through a few old bloodweb prestige levels.
But, more recently, I've drifted more towards Claudette. Similarly, she has a nice aesthetic and I like her backstory quite a bit, but she also has perks that actually lean in to my playstyle a little more. I like being team healer and going for other altruistic plays, so Botany Knowledge and Empathy (especially after 6.1.0 hyper-buffed BK) are great picks for me. I've been going through and getting every survivor to Prestige 3 in order recently, but after I'm done with that, I'm either sticking with Claudette or I'm changing to Jill on account of being such a gigantic RE fan lol.
Though, Ripley was added recently, and she is tempting... I'll just have to cycle through a few different survivors, I think. Honourable mentions already go to Haddie, Meg, and Mikaela, so...
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I wouldn't say Ultimate Weapon is completely fine, but I definitely don't think it's OP. It's information on demand (provided you have a terror radius, which is more of an 'if' than I think some would admit), but it's the weakest form of information. Screams are useful, but they're nothing compared to auras; they're barely above loud noise notifications, frankly.
Even if the killer knows where you are, that doesn't mean you're automatically helpless. It doesn't even help them in that chase, it just has them start it quicker with less wandering around searching for someone.
My issue with Ultimate Weapon is the Blindess it inflicts, and even then, it's not OP, it's just obnoxious. The Blindness isn't helping any killer in any conceivable way directly, it really just irritates the survivor without providing much reliable benefit. I'd like to see the Blindness removed, or at the very least lessened. Let me use my Detective's Hunch in peace :(
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526392#Comment_3526392
Jack Slash works well enough we'd hope
Topic at hand: we want the Sci Fi horror train to Keep going, so we're hoping for a predator or Terminator or the like
As survivor? I wouldn't say so, he'd be better suited as the killer. But since Taylor would be so overwhelmingly perfect for that role, that leaves him without a slot to fill.
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I've never understood posts like these. Obviously BHVR themselves don't think they're making Skull Merchant worthless, they're clearly trying to make her better even if you personally think they've failed in that endeavour.
Bizarre standpoint, where not only is your personal opinion objectively correct, it must also therefore be the explicit intention of the devs as well.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392525/item-rework-ideas-keys
"keys are not particularly usefull overall"
Keys are the strongest item for a chase build in the game, with the right addons or even a build around it you can see the killers aura for quite some time allowing you to basically never fall for any mindgame and making the chase last several minutes before you even run out of juice for your key, if you pair it up with the right perks it might even last for the entire game. I completely disagree with the statement that keys are not usefull, people just don't use them properly, all they were ever looked at was the opener for hatch and not the ridiculous aura reading they provide.
As the above response said, you're talking about the Blood Amber, not the Key it's attached to. That is exactly and literally what I meant when I said "barring for one or two specific addons" in my post.
You say people aren't looking to the ridiculous aura reading that Keys provide, but they don't provide any. At base, a Key does nothing except open the Hatch, and a Broken Key doesn't even do that. This issue is precisely what I want to address, and I'm not suggesting nerfing the Blood Amber so you'd still have that build available if you want it.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548815#Comment_3548815
It's interesting that you say 'not tunneling out someone immediately' isn't the most efficient method. Are you suggesting that tunneling someone out later in the game is more efficient?
I'm failing to see how eliminating a survivor after three chases is less efficient than doing so after (for example) five. In both approaches, the number of survivors being in chase / on hook is the same. The only difference is that one less survivor is doing gens during two of the chases.
When I say immediately, I mean more in the sense of that being your only goal. It's where the term comes from- tunnel vision. If you ignore macro play entirely in favour of trying to tunnel someone out immediately, and those chases aren't exceedingly fast, all you've done is gift the survivor team a lot of uncontested generator time. It's at best a gamble with a razor's edge, because if you do it poorly, you practically lose by default.
This obviously goes quadruple for facecamping, but you aren't arguing in favour of that here so I won't belabour that point.
What I'm getting at is that macro play is very important and the actual strength of hooks is a big part of why. You don't need to eliminate someone in three chases if the way you're playing occupies multiple survivors at once to drag them off generators.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548803#Comment_3548803
Yes, but you also have to see that the killer's goal is killing survivors.
There are multiple ways to achieve this: putting them on X number of hooks, bleeding them out, using specific killer powers or perks that instantly kill, or preventing them to leave in time during egc. As these methods are not equally easy to perform, any change regarding their mechanism changes their relative strengths.
Since gamers tend to have an unexplainable urge to win in their games, we'll often find that when relative strengths of their methods to achieve their goals change, they will adapt.
In this specific case, we happen to have a great set of perks that aid the bleeding out, or the keeping gates closed in endgame method. I wouldn't be surprised if their popularity will skyrocket if killers will find that it takes more and more chases to eliminate survivors, while the time it takes for them to complete their goal isn't changing.
Yes, which is why I just explained that the strongest and most efficient method of killing survivors is to not facecamp or try and tunnel someone out immediately.
The things that have been touched so far - camping and tunnelling - are easier. They are not stronger, and they weren't stronger before these changes were rolled out either.
You may not be wrong that people are going to try and do bleed-out or endgame builds more frequently now that they can't stand by the hook and leverage survivor player's general desire not to be bored out of their skulls for a match, but that doesn't mean hooks were nerfed. It means the path of least resistance suddenly started looking a little more hostile, and the unexplainable urge gamers actually have is to try and find as many shortcuts as possible to a win.
If necessary, those methods can be nerfed too. Eventually, players will realise that the strongest path was there all along and just required a little more effort... or they won't and the tools they try and use aren't free value anymore. Either way, the game improves.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548797#Comment_3548797
So what exactly is the strength of a hook if not that survivors can die on them? Farming bp?
When you get a hook, one survivor is immobilised. -25% generator efficiency while they're there, assuming all survivors are still alive.
If you get into a chase while that first survivor is still hooked, two survivors are occupied. -50% generator efficiency.
Because you aren't by the hook (and so a save is possible), and there's a timer before hook stages progress, a third survivor has to go rescue their hooked teammate. -75% generator efficiency.
Hooks aren't just the way you achieve your overall win condition, they're also your basekit slowdown. It's temporary, but your goal as killer is to repeat it as often as possible, and that requires not camping and not tunnelling by default. None of the changes we've received to hooks have changed this, and in fact they've been largely aimed at the ways people try to circumvent using hooks this way in favour of tactics that require less effort - by standing directly in front of a hooked survivor, and/or trying to immediately down them as soon as they're unhooked.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548786#Comment_3548786
Good examples for nerfing the hooks is removing hook-grabs, allowing self-unhooks under various conditions, or giving an Endurance effect to anyone who goes off a hook.
All of these changes make hooking survivors a less appealing option as opposed to any alternative we have.
Not really? None of those things actually affect the strength of a hook, which is that it immobilises one survivor and requires another survivor to come and save- except for the self-unhook, but that's only when you're camping, which is when you aren't getting proper value from hooks anyway.
It's only less appealing if you want to force someone to progress hook stages without being unhooked, or if you want to put someone back on the hook immediately to chew through hook stages. Neither of those are the main strength of hooks, so the changes aren't actually nerfing them.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548167#Comment_3548167
Wait, so your point is that camping or tunneling is not required, because we can also just slug everyone?
I feel that's exactly what we'll do if they keep nerfing the hooks.
What?
No, my point is that you never have to facecamp or immediately hard tunnel someone. I think you're conflating two separate parts of the message there, the only time I bring up slugging is in response to this idea that killers are being forced to go for 12 hooks, which is a claim with zero evidence.
Also, what do you mean by nerfing the hooks?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548167#Comment_3548167
I don't Taki it to any extreme. But going for lots of hooks seems to be BHVRs vision for the game right now. Every survivor should have enough time to play and have fun.
I agree with that, however, the more survivors are in the trial. The harder the trail gets for the killer. There is no better slowdown that a killed survivor.
But what are you actually basing that on? All we've seen is BHVR tackling the extreme edge cases of the cheaper gameplay tactics- IE, immediately downing someone as soon as they're unhooked, and standing immobile by the hook until they die.
Camping and tunnelling are still possible, they're just weaker and have counterplay/obstacles. There's no indication that BHVR are trying to force 12 hook matches on everyone, they're literally just addressing the most problematic edge cases of killers trying to circumvent skill expression to get easy value.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547490#Comment_3547490
Sometimes you have to though. Not every killer is as strong as Wesker or above.
A majority of maps are still very problematic in terms of size and loop design. Only made worse by perks like Made for this and Windows of opportunity.
A Freddy cant go for 8-12 hooks every game and not lose by default.
As a Pig main myself, I lose 2-3 gens very consistently for my first down. You can't expect me to go for many hooks at this point.
Tackling those first two points together: No you don't. You do not ever have to facecamp or hard tunnel someone immediately off hook. Facecamping is a pretty bad tactic in almost all cases if you want to win, and hard tunnelling only works if you've picked the right target + even then isn't as effective as other strategies.
I imagine what you mean is that you sometimes have to proxy camp, or prioritise someone who was unhooked recently. I would disagree with the phrasing "have to", but there are circumstances where that's the optimal play. Since neither of those things are being touched right now, though, I don't see any reason to shift the discussion to them.
Moving on, you don't need to go for 8-12 hooks? I don't know where that idea came from, there's nothing wrong with getting snowball downs on survivors who haven't been hooked yet/only hooked once and hooking them all at once. That's still a win and that hasn't been taken away from you.
That does baffle me, now that I'm typing it out. Why do people act like there's a hard binary between immediately facecamping and/or tunnelling someone out as quickly as possible, and going for twelve evenly spread hooks on sequential survivors? The game doesn't work like that.
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@pseudechis said:
I wouldn't say loss of agency for killers.
But mechanics like this do lend themselves to driving toward one stylized type of play. Favoring prolonged game time for all players over early eliminations/non-participation.
Unfortunately nothing changes the fact that less survivors means greater killer advantage more survivors means greater survivor advantage, so the more the game pushes toward survivors staying viably in game longer as a base mechanic, the more the need to compensate game slowdown in other ways to make up for the skewed advantage this brings to the survivor side.
Now you could make the point that its the killer's job to stall the game but then you could also make the point that its the survivors job to safely survive and rescue.
Yet we still have built in BT to maximize chance of escape at a base level, so what compensation for loss of mechanics that circumvent the stylized play of 12 hooks, none sequential, can killers expect.
That's the great question of balance. I don't think its trying to limit options for killer players but if the goal is to drive towards a standard of play that allows for longer survivor game time, then killers need to be buffed accordingly to make sure there is enough base slowdown.
There is enough base slowdown and very little need for compensation, is the thing. You have never needed to facecamp or hard tunnel someone out immediately, in their extremes those have always been ways to circumvent skill expression and them being reigned in to not be as powerful and free doesn't require compensation.
Assuming that survivors have no/minimal tools to speed up generators, just playing the macro game and occupying as many survivors as you can at once is enough to slow down the game if you're skilled enough-- and if you aren't skilled enough for that, there's plenty of tools you can bring in to give you a little more leeway. There is still a problem with how powerful toolboxes are and with survivors sometimes spawning all spread out on separate generators that should be addressed because that is the thing that actually harms a killer's ability to generate pressure at base, but that's not the same thing as needing to compensate for cheap tactics being weakened.
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Well, if it works it works. The Haste helped all of those killers to varying degrees, and it'll help Trapper too.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545949#Comment_3545949
1- you do not fundamentally change trapper's power by changing how he gets his traps. his traps still do the same thing. you just make it more convenient. it's like doctor not needing to switch modes anymore, convenience. don't know if you were around for that...
2- it can be anything really... but trap telekinesis also solves travel time by default (you can make the trap take longer to reach the further away it is to compensate. also put it in a timer so you can't just spam it. the more I think about it, the more I think it's actually a good idea)
better trap spawns to me are just a bandaid on top of a deep wound. they gotta actually fix the issue at some point, might aswell do it now and skip the bandaid.
I complain about trappers issues, because I love trapper, and I want him to be the best he can.
The fact remains that the devs want to keep him as close to how he is right now as possible, and that's a fair thing to want. Considering it's not necessary for fixing him, it's fair to work within those constraints.
The "deep wound" you're referring to is the time he has to invest to set up, not the fact that he has to collect traps at all. If the traps were in the right spots, the wound is stitched up just as well. Better, even, because it doesn't leave the metaphorical scar of removing a part of his identity.
They have to actually fix the issue at some point, you're right. Better trap spawns is the fix.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545931#Comment_3545931
why do people always say "improve traps spawns" and not "why even have trap spawns"?
just give him a more engaging way to get more traps if starting with all of them is such an issue.
still think making him thor and pull the traps to him like mjolnir is a good idea (only disarmed ones). but the timer idea I gave earlier in this discussion is also fine.
maybe something else... but can we at least entertain the idea of not going to a place, picking up a trap, walking back and then continue doing what we were doing? that entire tangent required to have our power? can we just think of a new thing? one that keeps us in the game? or that takes at max as much time as opening a locker?
I think reinami is right in giving him a minimum range between traps, so he can't just lock down shack or some other small area and needs to spread them out a bit. there. he can still play base defense but by nature the base needs to be bigger. so now we can afford to make it do stuff in chase aswell. so an actual chase trapper can exist.
Two reasons.
The first and biggest reason is that the devs have stated they do not want to fundamentally alter Trapper's power. I'm sympathetic to this, their reasoning is valid and it isn't really necessary to fundamentally change him either.
The second and smaller reason is, as mentioned above, that you don't need to. Part of Trapper's gameplay and core identity is juggling traps, that's just who he is; it doesn't need to be as annoying and detrimental to you as it currently is, but it probably should remain. I wouldn't be against a reasonable trap-recall system (though it being tied to lockers would be more thematically appropriate than giving him telekinesis for them), but it's also not the only way to fix him.
Better trap spawns would fix the problem. You personally may not enjoy playing Trapper because of collecting traps, but that doesn't make it an actual flaw.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545536#Comment_3545536
the barrier of entry is... the exact same. 2 or 20 traps. it makes no difference, congrats.
You're right, you can't really afford to both set up a web of traps and use them in chase. You have to pick, and that's not really a genuine flaw. He's a setup killer, that's how he's designed.
you are the one saying we can't give the setup killer their setup in the first place... I'm saying, let him have his traps. adjust the power some other way if needed. walking around to pick them up is just busy work and not interesting or fun.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545610#Comment_3545610
bubba exists...
The barrier for entry is the time it takes to collect your traps and put them up around your first hook, and it's also way harder to proxy camp with a ton of traps because you can only carry two at a time without addons. With all traps carried at the start of the match, there is now no barrier for entry, you can immediately set up everything you have around that hook.
The barrier for entry is also the same for basement Trapper, though that one is a little easier since you only really need to set up three traps.
This makes these strategies, which aren't the healthiest in the game even if they aren't necessarily "too strong", a little less accessible. Improvements to Trapper should look to keep them a little less accessible, rather than making them more so.
For example, there are two ways of addressing Trapper's problem with his early game that would both address the issue without causing the same issues as just giving him all his traps from the word go;
- Have traps spawn closer to the centre of the map, trending towards the side that Trapper started on. No more traps spawning on the opposite side of the map, or against map borders. Much easier to move around and juggle your traps by placing some and picking up others.
- Have traps spawn in loops already, not in random spots. They don't have to be optimal, they can just be on the side of pallet loops and next to some windows, but this would allow Trapper to just walk by and set some traps without having to pick them up first.
Neither of these suggestions would improve Trapper's ability to employ the two strategies we've been talking about, but they would do a lot to help Trapper with his legitimate problems.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545366#Comment_3545366
He can already do that.
Extra traps do not change this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545397#Comment_3545397
Having few traps encourages you to keep them closer and not spread them out too much. So basement trapper becomes more atractive.
Also having few traps, and having to go back and pick them up, means you can't really afford to actually use them in chase.
So... literally the reverse of what you said.
Amount of traps is not what will stop basement trapper. Set a max range between traps, or something else. This ain't it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545417#Comment_3545417
Gut reaction... why do I need to spend 4.5 seconds setting a trap on 90% of the maps?
But I'm in a hurry... let me come back to it later
It's the fact that traps don't do anything without you there to follow up on them that encourages you to place them in the same general area, and that's also not the same as basement camping or immediately setting up all your traps around your first hook, which are the two things people take issue with and think giving him all his traps at the start will encourage.
You're right, you can't really afford to both set up a web of traps and use them in chase. You have to pick, and that's not really a genuine flaw. He's a setup killer, that's how he's designed.
I think the problem here is highlighted by your last line in your response to me, where you talk about stopping basement Trapper. That isn't the point, the point is that players will take whatever shortcut is easiest and shows the least resistance while using powers. Take a look at Artist or Knight, who share the issue of people forcing survivors to run away from loops to eventually get an M1. Is that their strongest playstyle? No, not at all. Is it how they're designed to be played? No, it isn't. Is it easy and straightforward and gets just enough results to not be counterintuitive? Yes, and that's why it's so prevalent.
If you give Trapper all his traps at the start of a match, basement Trapper and just setting everything down around your first hook for proxy camping become the easiest way to play him by far. That means players will do it, and that would be bad, because it's both more stale gameplay and it's not reaching Trapper's potential from a design standpoint.
Stopping Basement Trapper is another matter entirely, but you'd have to do that well in advance of ever considering giving him all his traps from the start. Once you have done that, and it is completely solved, you can start to think about how to change Trapper's kit such that players are still incentivised to place their traps tactically instead of either forcing survivors to leave loops mid-chase or proxy camping their first hook if you were to give him all his traps from the start. Naturally, Trapper can do those things already, but they have a higher barrier for entry and you do not want to make them easier for him to do.
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Giving him all his traps at the start of the match is a bad idea even disregarding what the devs want wrt keeping him simple. It's not a feasible way to improve him.
No matter what, Trapper is going to collect his traps from elsewhere, even if the devs decide to radically overhaul him somewhere down the line. Starting with all his traps encourages his most unhealthy gameplay while doing nothing to enable the healthier alternatives.
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I'm not a mind reader and I don't work for BHVR, so I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine the thought process was something along the lines of;
Furtive Chase is not a trash perk, it's just a very niche one, so buffing its values as part of the "extra changes" section in the update budget will help it out for when it's used in those niche scenarios as well as remind people that it exists so they might give those niche builds a go.
I think they probably could've picked a better perk to give the "extra changes" number tweaks, but eh. It'll be nicer in the builds you already use it for, and not much else.
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I would presume whatever changes it's potentially getting aren't ready yet.
There's no reason to fast-track a solution like with Skull Merchant since it's not having anywhere near as negative an effect on the game. It could use a nerf, but it's just a perk that's a little bit too strong, not something as damaging to the game's health as holding matches hostage for an hour.
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@KaTo1337 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544368#Comment_3544368
You mean Knight and SM?
Well... you know how they came to live? As D-Tiers...
Singularity? 43% Killrate on Nightlight 1 week ago, currently 46%. Strong killer v. good survivors 🤪
Wesker, Knight, Skull Merchant, Singularity were all buffed within a short to moderate timeframe of their release. Sadako took longer, but did eventually get buffed.
The only one that's been nerfed is Xenomorph, because Xenomorph is the only one that needed to be nerfed.
Not sure what tier placement or killrate have to do with this point.