jesterkind
jesterkind
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534604#Comment_3534604
In this situation is possible that a survivor will be outside of the radius while killer is within the radius. And to know what's happening you need to know the exact radius. It's not like PH's cages, when you can immediately see the effect of you being around them and it is a unique effect, you need to figure what's happening and why.
Sure, but for how long? How long is the survivor going to be outside the radius, while the killer's inside it? I'd argue not for long, even if they're looping in and out of the radius they'll be inside it some of the time.
And, again, we do not know how long the timer is, nor how much it's slowed. Hell, we don't know if the killer's given a unique effect to pay attention to. These are not fair criticisms of the idea, they're potential problems and we don't know whether they'll be present in the version we end up testing.
(Also, we do know the exact radius, iirc. It's 16 metres, Kindred range. The new player doesn't need that exact number, because all they need to know is "go chase someone else, don't stand by the hook")
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534601#Comment_3534601
I hooked a survivor on the Dead Dog saloon, then I see a survivor in the main building and chase them, suddenly the survivor on the hook unhook himself.
Stupid game, uninstall.
We already know other survivors being in the radius slows the progress down, and we don't know whether chases make a difference + what the speeds actually are. This isn't a problem with the idea in theory, it's something that depends on how it's implemented in practice.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534595#Comment_3534595
Define "close to the hook".
Why?
You don't need to know the exact numbers, you just need to know that you need to be prioritising chasing a survivor that isn't on the hook. If you internalise that message, you're not going to be inside the radius of the anti-camp mechanic to begin with a majority of the time, which means it's actually improving the game experience + skill development of new players as well as functioning as an anti-camp mechanic.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534586#Comment_3534586
If it isn't a background running mechanic, tell me what.
How do you know you are "near" the hook if you are a newbie killer and you don't follow the patchnotes?
...Because you're the one that hooked the survivor??
Of course you're going to know where the hooked survivor is...? If you're close to the hook and you're paying attention enough to be engaging with the game's mechanics, you're gonna realise that being close to the hook and not doing anything else is punished. New players aren't literal infants, they have object permanence and short term memory.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534564#Comment_3534564
Yeah, beginning killers will be happy to see background running mechanics pulling survivors off the hook at random (no)
When "at random" is "while you're camping the hook", I think even beginner killers will catch on that they're Not Supposed To Do That.
It's not a background running mechanic, it's one that kicks in while you're standing near the hook. The worst case scenario is it conditions them to move away in a random direction rather than with purpose.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534563#Comment_3534563
My issue is that the devs buff things too quickly from ptb but don't make adjustments when they get live for months
Well, that is kind of how it should work, right? Make the obvious quick changes that are needed from the PTB, and then let it settle to see if it does need changes going forward. A broader pool of players that have no idea how to react to the new thing will need time to adjust. In general, too, they have less time to make a snap decision when it comes to the PTB, and they have the time to do it properly once it hits live.
That's why it's relevant that the buffs aren't random or unnecessary most of the time, the only killer that did get a random and unnecessary buff was Xeno. You're acting like every PTB in the past year has caused massive issues that need immediate solutions, and BHVR are just dragging their feet on fixing it.
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I feel like you're trying to make a broad claim out of a single piece of evidence, here. Xeno is the only killer that got "random buffs" after that PTB, I don't know what you're referring to with the other two examples.
On that point, though, I think most of the buffs were fine. The only one I really have an issue with is the post-miss speed reduction, I don't think that should've been buffed.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534554#Comment_3534554
ps4 wins again! no end game chat!
which is mostly annoying...
Pffft. Ignorance is bliss, as they say...
It's not unbearably awful, to be clear, but I understand why someone might be wary of it anyway.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534548#Comment_3534548
I played her yesterday and no one quit. it's doable.
I know, I play her too. It's a dice roll, some days you'll get reasonable games, others you'll get insta-DCs and abuse in the endgame chat.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534443#Comment_3534443
Who cares?
If you want the character, get it.
To be fair, trying to play Skull Merchant right now is miserable. As has been acknowledged in this thread already, people just give up immediately. I don't blame someone holding off until that changes lol
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@Melinko said:
Eh, there is a simple solution. If every single survivor that is camped/tunnel and all their teammates report the killer that does it for say "griefing" that killer's account will end up being reported so often that the devs probably take notice and probably give a 24 hour timeout to start. It continues, might be a little longer. Again this would take the entire community to get together and start doing but it would certainly end the camp and tunnel days of the game and then nothing has to change from a development side.
I think if camping and tunneling was the exception not the rule, people would be less bothered by it. However, at this point in the game it is shocking when there isn't a tunnel or a camp. Hell, I saw a Xeno face camp to preserve a 3 k because the xeno can apparently fully block the hook. It is becoming a problem.
In order for that to work, camping and tunnelling would have to be against the rules, which iirc they are not. Proxy camping and tunnelling definitely aren't, and I'm pretty sure facecamping isn't either.
As for simple solutions, I like the one we were told is gonna be tested, personally! We'll have to see how it works out, of course, but it has promise.
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Short answer: Yes, you are meant to wait.
Longer answer: I do agree that killers bleeding survivors out on purpose is obnoxious, but there really shouldn't be any acceptable reasons to DC that would warrant no penalty at all. Occasionally needing to handle some IRL emergency or whatever is one thing, a 60 second penalty isn't going to impact you if that happens every once in a while, but the expectation should be that when you queue up to play a match, you finish that match, even if it doesn't go your way.
You mention challenges yourself, and that's more than good enough of a reason to not let survivors freely DC, but even setting that aside... the fair reasons for DCing right now (pretty much just being bled out for four minutes, or SM 3-gen stuff) are things that should be fixed, and it's pretty much just those two things anyway. I certainly can't think of any other legitimate reason to DC, myself.
Rather than allowing people to just DC freely, I'd suggest something of a "bleed out faster" button if you're the only survivor left. Gives the killer some time to rush to finish a challenge if they are actually trying to do that, but otherwise lets you give the killer their kill and go next without having to wait the full four minutes.
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What's your reasoning for thinking that?
To me, boons have a pretty clear purpose behind their implementation, and they're pretty objectively not the same kind of perk as hexes so there's really no reason to insist they be balanced the same way.
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@Majin151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533560#Comment_3533560
Oh Ok show me a game where a skull merchant couldn't easily handle a bot with said bot working on gens instead of opening a chest and doing dull totems
Because bots are ######### easy to take care of heck I leave them alone and go for them last when playing killer because they ######### around a majority of the time instead of doing gens
Well, you've got two situations.
Either the Skull Merchant is doing 3-gen strats, which means it's already justifiable to not play it out.
Or they aren't, which means the bot is at minimum a distraction for the killer.
Again, if that bot weren't there, the killer would just be on one of you and there'd be zero chance of an extra body on gens. Even if the chance of the bot working on gens is low, it's not zero.
Though, for the record, I've already said not committing to a game where someone gave up instantly is more fair. My criticism is about the people who do immediately give up as soon as they see a specific killer, no matter which one it is.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533560#Comment_3533560
The bots are worse than having a man down.
Honestly, I disagree, the bots have been pretty good in my experience. They have an annoying tendency to miss skill checks marginally more than a real human, and they aren't as good in chase as you might want, but they're significantly better than actually lacking a fourth player.
If nothing else, they're a body for the killer to chase and hook while you're doing generators. At best, they go for saves and tick up generator progress a little.
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@Majin151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533554#Comment_3533554
I'm sorry but if the match starts with someone disconnecting I'm going afk because 99% of the time before the alien chapter meant it was a skull merchant and screw playing a skull merchant match with a man down
A bit more defensible, but to be fair, we do have DC bots now, so you aren't actually a complete man down.
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@Majin151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533530#Comment_3533530
I give up straight away because screw the possibility of the match ending in a 3 gen I don't care about their excuses of oh I'm not like other skull merchants the majority of sm plays like that so I'm going afk until the match ends
As I said, pretty indefensible. You should at least give players a chance not to be playing like scumbags.
You wouldn't insta-DC or go AFK against a Leatherface before ascertaining that it's a Basement Bubba, so the same principle applies.
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If it's a 3-gen situation, there really isn't much of a point playing it out. Though, that said, far too many people immediately DC or give up as soon as they see Skull Merchant without actually ascertaining how they're playing, and that's pretty indefensible. That's straight up just leaving because you don't like the killer at that point.
As for how to fix her, you don't need to radically overhaul her power. You just need to lean into it being versatile and strategic, while lessening its direct lethality and removing certain addons. It's already capable of doing far more than 3-genning, just not very well. So... make it better at those things with number buffs, and retool her addons to better support those playstyles, while nerfing its area-denial capability by removing Lock-On. That's my pitch.
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@Venusa said:
STBFL hasn't been adjusted to match the 6.1.0. update and it's been very over-tuned with full stacks since then but nobody wants to admit it out of fear LOL.
I think it's more realistic that people just don't agree with that sentiment, personally.
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To be fair, I think vaults are bugged right now, which isn't exactly (or at all) the same thing as actively making a change.
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As a genuine question, would it still being show off in the post match screen not be enough here? That's still showing it off, and doesn't contribute to any of the lobby-dodging nonsense that it being shown in the lobby leads to.
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@fussy said:
I heard that opinion before, but for me this map is pretty good with all aspects. It definately doesn't feel too big like Borgo, Mother Dwelling or Ormond. It is their best and most balanced map since reworked Eyrie imo.
It's so weird seeing Ormond mentioned in the same breath as Mother's Dwelling when it's like, dead centre as far as map sizes go, it's really not that big at all.
To the main post, I'd say no, it feels like a pretty good size to me. I haven't had that many matches on it, but on both sides it feels like it isn't too cramped but it also hasn't taken three years to cross it, either.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532627#Comment_3532627
Sometimes perks have unintended purposes. Killer powers too, for that matter (hence why Bubba is such a camping machine). I know I'd run it if I were a tunneler. It's very effective for that killer playstyle.
Obviously I'm not going to change your mind.
I think a lot of the enjoyment to be had playing DBD relies heavily on players being good sports to each other. If every killer played like the killers I faced today, I'd simply stop playing the game. But I know they don't, so I'll keep playing (but maybe not at the weekend).
Don't get me wrong, you're not going to catch me arguing that hard tunnelling is totally fine. I just think you're putting too much weight on Lethal Pursuer when it's just one of a lot of tools that can help with tunnelling despite not actually being designed for it or really directly enabling it.
The perk is not the problem here, it's not even making the problem worse. It's just kind of... also there in the games where hard tunnelling happens.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532599#Comment_3532599
It helps you find survivors right from the start of the game. So zero time is wasted looking for survivors and the killer can get straight into tunnelling someone out of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible (preferably before a single gen's been popped). That's been my experience, anyway. Most hard tunnelling killers seem to run it.
I'd say that's a pretty extreme stretch, personally. You might as well argue that any info perk is overpowered because it'd help a killer chase a recently unhooked survivor, or that something like Enduring/Spirit Fury would be too.
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@tjt85 said:
I think Lethal Pursuer and Sloppy Butcher are borderline unfair perks to face in Solo Q, but I guess they're probably fine against a SWF on comms (I say "probably" because I only play Solo Q).
Sloppy because getting healed is super unreliable for Solo Q players. Just interrupt every heal with Nurse's Calling and you're basically playing an instadown killer for the rest of the game. Easy wins all day long.
Lethal because it makes tunnelling an even easier and brainless strat than it already is.
Edit:
Hex: Devour Hope is a perk that I never like to face either. I don't know if it's overpowered as such, it just feels like the opposite of fun to me, especially when it stays up all game.
How does Lethal improve tunnelling? I'm really curious what you mean by that.
I disagree with Sloppy too, to be clear, but I see what you mean by that one at least.
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I don't think anyone can fairly say there are any overpowered killer perks at the moment. Maybe a few that could be argued to be unhealthy even if they aren't overpowered, but there's currently nothing really on that level of strength that I can think of right now.
The overpowered killer stuff tends to be in basekits and addons, anyway, or in specific perk combinations. Not always, but usually.
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@Steakdabait said:
It should need to get its numbers pumped if it wasn't usable while exhausted
I wouldn't say so, its numbers are perfectly usable. They don't require an Exhaustion perk to be useful, they just are, without any synergy at all.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531860#Comment_3531860
a perk is only as good as the player who uses it. you make it sound like equipping thana was an instant win button.
I would argue they're making it sound like equipping Thana was a "make games miserable" button, which isn't quite the same thing.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531685#Comment_3531685
adds 25 second extra on 0-100 gen if the killer injures the entire team for entire trial and survivors do not heal = over-tuned perk.
Put that on a killer that excels at keeping survivors injured and stack it with other slowdown perks, and yes, that is 100% an overtuned perk.
You surely can't be saying that the Legion and Plague Thana builds were okay for the game?
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I've only seen the first four (and quite recently!), but my general ranking would probably be...
1, 2, Resurrection, 3
I don't think I need to explain my reasoning for the first two, they're both masterpieces and which position you put them in comes down to personal preference- I prefer slow creeping tension to bombastic action, so 1 ranks a little higher than 2, but they're both incredible movies.
Resurrection I rank above 3 because I think it does what it's going for better, even though I do actually prefer what 3 was going for. It was always going to be controversial to kill off the previous characters and then also go for such a desperate and hopeless tone, but I do think a better edited and paced version of Alien 3 would've landed that well enough for it to be considered as good as the first two. The pieces are there, but they weren't assembled very well.
On the flip side, Resurrection had way worse pieces, but because it decided to forgo even trying to assemble them in favour of juggling them in ridiculous ways, I had more fun with it. Plus, Sigourney Weaver chewing the scenery as Ripley 8 was just a blast to watch, she was so good in that movie.
In general though I didn't dislike any of them. They all had their fun moments and individual charm.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531492#Comment_3531492
i don't think so. i think only way you can survivor not use exhaustion perks is if you just nerf all of them to completely worthless. stealth will not prominent in dbd because there is too much mechanics in dbd that prevent stealth from being worth it. the main one is scratch marks. the other two are cries of pain and blood pools. a side problem with stealth is tracking perks and some killer just counter stealth.
the result of making all chase perks not worth using is survivors just switching all their perks into gen-rush perks to do generator faster. Like if you cannot slow chase down then your only other method of reliably winning is doing objective faster.
This wouldn't make chase perks not worth using, though, because no perk effects have actually changed. What it does is encourage you not to run the best options for everything all at once, because they would have anti-synergy.
You'd pick one of the best options - an Exhaustion or something like Resilience - and then pick other stuff for whatever else you want because it'd synergise better.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531400#Comment_3531400
Lithe on nightlight has 17% usage rate. when Lithe is used, resilience is picked 17% of the time. adding exhaustion to resilience makes lithe does not work with resilience. the synergy of MFT and resilience remains same but other perk choices are more narrow. your not increasing perk diversity. your making perk diversity have a more narrow scope. in other words, your enforcing the meta. that is kinda what they do on killer perks. for example, a killer has unique build, say nurse with starstruck, they make nurse have special attacks so a unique perk that works well on nurse stops getting used. this enforces nurse to run meta perks.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what.
exhaustion perks are design flaw in survivor's perk system. they will always be best perks for survivor because extending chases means that generator go faster and you survive longer as survivor. so you win faster as survivor and die less often simultaneously. as a result, they will always have highest pick-rate because they are the best perks. the only caveat to exhaustion perks is their reliability to trigger.
But when you don't get to use Lithe, you start thinking about other possible combinations. In this situation, Made For This is the one sticking point because it's another best-in-class, but when that perk is inevitably nerfed and people almost certainly drop it en masse because they assume it's worthless, you'll start thinking about your other options.
Maybe you bring Quick & Quiet or another straight chase perk. Maybe you bring stealth to make up for being more vulnerable in chase. Maybe you bring Exhaustion and try to manage it, or pick an Exhaustion perk you use less frequently because it works out a little better. That's where the increase in variety would come from; if you can't easily use the obvious two best things together, you start looking at other combinations or nonstandard ways of making those two things work together.
(As an aside, Nurse had her basic attacks changed to special attacks because it was blatantly overpowered for her to get to use Exposed. It really had nothing to do with variety at all, it was a really straightforward balance change for balance reasons.)
Exhaustion perks don't have to be the obvious picks if they have anti-synergy with other perks, that's my point. If more strong and desirable perks had the Exhaustion condition, players would choose to use one or the other, increasing variety. Even in cases where they try to use both, that could be argued as a healthier outcome anyway, because at least they're trying something new with a little self-imposed challenge.
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531327#Comment_3531327
^^This. Playing at max health state was always optimal for survivor success. Unhealthy game design essentially made getting to max health a detriment to the team.
Healing yourself takes 50% longer with a medkit and it can only be done once without max add-ons. It's less detrimental to your team to bring a good toolbox.
Self-healing without a medkit was time consuming BEFORE the medkit/self-healing nerf (SelfCare, totem booning for CoH). It’s just irresponsible to do it now.
Resilience hasn't magically gotten better. It’s just a symptom of this unhealthy design. Survivors don’t like running around more vulnerable. It’s like perma-NOEDing yourself.
But when the alternative is heal 50% longer, fewer times; or use an additional survivor’s time; survivors opted to not heal at all. Devs caved to pressure and essentially removed a core component of survivor gameplay (even though we were at 60%+ kill rates). It created the ‘just hammer gens’, speed game, mentality.
Resilience is fine as is. The fix is to make healing feasible and hopefully put the ‘no healing’ genie back in the bottle. But I’m not sure if there’s any going back.
So, setting aside that whether or not healing is viable wasn't exactly the point of this thread, there are two answers to this.
The first is that it is wrong. You can absolutely heal yourself in reasonable times, you just have to both invest some proper tools into doing it and accept that it's going to be overall slower than someone else healing you because of course it should overall be slower than someone else healing you. There's limited and faster, or there's numerous but slower. Both have viable options.
The second is that altruistic healing not only wasn't nerfed, it was buffed. Heal your teammates. They'll heal you back, I promise, it happens in 90% of my solo queue games.
Finally, the point of the nerf isn't that Resilience is too strong. The point is that I think there should be more pressure surrounding bringing the best-in-class for anything you want to do. If you want the benefits of Resilience, it shouldn't be unfair to expect that bringing Exhaustion is harder, exactly like Iron Will and Made For This. Resilience was just my example because it has such clear comparisons to this concept already in the game and would be easiest to implement.
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@CLHL said:
Not true. If matchmaking was a thing they would keep getting senior players, no matter how many times they dodge a lobby, since there are more senior players than new players. What's more, they should be re-matched with the same lobby, since it would be free for them. But since matchmaking is a complete joke, where a 5000 hour player can queu with a friend with 10 hours, they keep getting a lobby full of skill gaps.
The matchmaking broadens its range of acceptable matches if the queue takes too long or in the case of lobby dodging, because accuracy is only one of the two priorities when it comes to this kind of thing; the other is speed. Some people say they'd be okay with waiting a long time for fairer matches, but even if they're all 100% right, they're not a majority.
Lobby dodging harms matchmaking even though the matchmaking isn't a complete joke. Hiding Prestige in the lobby is perfectly reasonable and I'm all for it, myself.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/389987/should-resilience-get-this-nerf
All the perk needs is a time limiter of about 30s , you'd still get your benefits during the chase, but if you wanted to get them again for next chase, you'd need to spend time healing.
Playing insta down killers against this meta is completely pointless, you get your first down, then they just remain injured for the rest of the match. Since you're going down in 1 hit anyway, might aswell save the 16s you'd take to heal in order to be harder to catch while injured AND do gens 9% faster, pretty sure if you do the math Resi is a bigger boost to gen speeds than Prove thyself individually. (9% out of 1 Cps is much greater than 10% out of 0.85 Cps while co-oping)
Iron Will is perfectly fine because it doesn't boost your core game speeds, its just an anti audio tracking perk.
That'd be an actual nerf to Resilience specifically, though, whereas my suggestion is more about putting pressure on builds by pushing players to consider what they're making less effective.
I have no issue with the actual effects of Resilience, it's perfectly fine. I just think that it'd be healthier for the game if choosing something like Resilience put pressure on you to not also pick Exhaustion perks, for example, while still allowing those combinations if you want them. I think this particular change would fit Resilience especially because of two other perks that are designed in a similar way.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531309#Comment_3531309
you mean like thanatophobia? i am pretty sure perk got nuked 2 times. survivors said it was unfun.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531292#Comment_3531292
exhaustion effect removes its synergy with other exhaustion perks. your reducing perk diversity by making res only work with MFT.
Yes, the purpose is to remove its synergy with Exhaustion perks because those mitigate the downside of being injured quite a bit (at least insofar as being vulnerable in chase), which in turn makes the supposed tradeoff not exactly a huge factor when it comes to decision making.
What do you mean by "only" working with MFT, though? There are other chase perks that aren't Exhaustion based, some of which actually have inherent synergy with Resilience anyway. Take Quick & Quiet, for example; inherent synergy with Resilience, a chase perk, but not Exhaustion related.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what. Builds that specialise in other things at the cost of making Exhaustion perks less reliable overall should, imo, be seen as a healthy and viable alternative if you want it. Sometimes, to increase diversity, you have to lower the absolute numbers of the current biggest pick, if that makes sense.
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@Rudjohns said:
Survivors aren't allowed to have good perks, gee
I feel like this comment is particularly bad faith here considering I'm not even talking about changing what the perk does.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531320#Comment_3531320
thats why half of my matches on solo Q are teammates spending years healing themselfs over and over with the self heal penalty?
if the killer just runs mangled , there is no point of healing unless you are facing a spirit or stealth killer , but nah i rather prefer stay injured and do my best with chases and being useful doing the gens.
like you said , you can heal but it takes a looooot of time doing it by youself with mangled. thats boring , i can also bring a syringe for that which is better than default medkits.
No, the reason for that would be that you have subpar teammates who don't know how and when to heal properly.
There are ways of healing yourself in reasonable times, even with medkits, and the expectation is that you should be attempting to heal your teammates more anyway.
Though, none of that is super relevant to this thread.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531292#Comment_3531292
with how the butchered medkits? nope , healthier builds are not viable currently unless you want to waste 3 perk slots for healing speed and charge reduction on medkits , but otherwise NO , healing is pretty much not viable against half of the killer of the game , thats why adrenaline is still meta after soo many years.
let ressilience alone . ressilience is pretty much fine as it is , is like a trade-off that also comes with the nice addition of vault speed increase which IMO is a must have if you want to actually go into chases due to how bad and slow vaulting is by default CURRENTLY like without the perk you can literally be hit from miles away pretty often LIKE REALLY OFTEN even on pallets , with the perk those cases get reduced by half with 9% speed buff on vault actions. (also helps to combat laggy killers which is good)
By healthier, I did not mean revolving around being fully healed. I meant healthier in terms of overall game health.
(Though for the record, you can absolutely heal, even self-heal. Medkits weren't butchered and they aren't the only source of self-healing anyway.)
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@radiantHero23 said:
In the current state of dbd, resilience is a strong meta Perk.
This however has less to do with the Perk itself but more the game around it.
Multiple perks help out the survivor when staying injured. Made for this being the strongest one. This on top of longer healing times leads to most survivors just slamming gens injured because most killers lack the mobility or chase potential to stop them in time. If we disincentivise staying injured resilience's pickrate will drop eventually.
The Perk isn't the problem it's all the other perks and mechanics that make it strong.
As I said, the actual strength or pickrate of Resilience isn't my motivation here. It's about overall perk design and how they contribute to overall builds.
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@supersonic853 said:
Resilence has been unchanged since 2016 besides bugfixes. Its the epitome of balanced as its never reached to hard meta relevancy unless it was another perks fault. Which itd fall out after said other perk was changed. (Being shown with current mft now and old dh before). Leave it alone.
My thought process has a lot less to do with Resilience itself being overpowered, and more to do with how perks should be laid out to encourage healthier build diversity.
The Exhaustion condition on Iron Will and Made For This was a good move that should have, in theory, pushed players to think of other perks to synergise with beyond the otherwise-obvious choices. Considering it would fit Resilience, I think that might be a nice extra step in that direction.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530561#Comment_3530561
TBH, any perks that gives survivors a looping advantage is stronger than a single one in killer side, as you must consider that every second that a survivor wons against a killer is 4sec on killers time. Then multiply that by 4 (every survivor could use that one perk) and we have a problem. I don't think we never had S tier chase perk for killers - at least as far as i remember - but if we had, it would only be strong as survivor chase perks, like SB, Lithe or Overcome; remember that killer also need info perk and gen regression perks, as without them, even making fast chases you still can get all gens done and take 3 to 2 escapes.
My point was: the game is made around 4.6 killers (and some 4.4 with projectiles or strong chase powers) trying to catch 4.0 survivors that can drop pallets (expendable resource) or vaults windows. You can say killers have powers to help them in chases - at least, part of them - but you need to remember that most powers change the killers speed to 4.0 or below while they are using it.
Giving killers an easy way to move 0.2m/s faster or survivors to move 0.12m/s is kinda game breaking, as all of game balance made in 7 years was made thinking that most of the time killers will move 4.6/4.4 and survivors will move 4.0.
It's always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people use that "killer time is four times as valuable as survivor time" thing as though it's broadly applicable to the entirety of the trial and not just the very start of it. That number doesn't apply if even one survivor is accounted for, be it in chase, slugged, hooked, or dead.
Moving on to the broader point, there's been ways of messing with your movement speed for ages, especially on the killer side. If there's a problem with Made For This giving you Haste, it's actually that it's a low number that isn't extremely obvious what it's impacting, because that makes it subtle enough that you may not realise you need to correct your play for it. It isn't itself unbalanced, though it is strong, the problem with it comes from Endurance, Haste stacking (because it's a small number that is consistently available, making it a fantastic base for temporary increases to benefit from), and potentially the killer not knowing when it's in effect.
Regardless, my real point up there is that you can't do a direct one to one comparison to Made For This on the killer side, even as a hypothetical new perk. There's no direct counterpart to the two conditions that perk has, and even its base speed value would be comparatively more powerful for the role that already moves faster and has powers to help further.
(Also you don't need regression or info, and whether your chases are fast isn't as important as if you're applying macro pressure.)
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529856#Comment_3529856
It will never will be because its not a broken perk. Lets not be silly that most of the meta in DBD in made by strong perks, and in some cases, broken ones.
About the argument of MFT being "fun" and other discussion on the topic:
People are not using MFT because its fun (how this perk can be fun if it does not enable nothing new for surv, only increasing the surv mov speed? LOOPING is FUN, and that is what this perk improves), but because you can feel the difference it makes in a match, if you have a little bit of game knowledge.
Plot Twist, Dramaturgy, Head On, even DH can be fun, but MFT its one of the most stale and boring perks in the game and wouldn't be used if wasn't one the strongest perks released in the years.
Want a fair comparision for what an MFT for killers would be? A perk that gives you permanent Bloodlust level 1 as long one generator have been completed, or a 4.8m/s killer basekit.
That's not quite an equivalent, though, because it only has the one condition.
I see what you're going for - a generator being completed is a point of disadvantage in the same way that being injured is, neither being a failure but both being something you want to avoid - but considering your example doesn't disable at any point (EG, being healed or downed) and doesn't have the secondary condition (not being Exhausted), it's strictly stronger than MFT despite lacking a secondary effect like MFT has.
That's not even factoring in that a straight equivalent of MFT for the killer side would be far stronger just by default, because killers already move faster and almost universally have tools for aiding in getting hits easier on top of that. It's a comparison that just won't work, you can't draw a one to one comparison between perks in the two different roles some of the time.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530166#Comment_3530166
My scenario is putting MFT in 1v1 chase situation against an M1 killer. If that's a "fantastic scenario" for MFT to play out (remember we're only using half the perk here), there's a problem. Why should anyone ever play an M1 killer (the other half of the game that you keep conveniently glossing over) when MFT exists?
You aren't just pitting it against an M1 killer, you're pitting it against a Trapper who absolutely hasn't had time to set up beforehand. It's not the same as just picking a weaker class of killer (not that you can fairly say "M1 killer" is a coherent class of weak killer when some of them are among the best in the game), it's actively cutting out using their power for a skewed 1v1 that wouldn't represent a real chase in a real game.
The fantastic scenario is a killer without a power chasing a survivor that has free reign to use everything on the map immediately because they aren't in a real match and don't have to worry about the long-term or their teammates. Put any chase perk you want in that scenario and it's going to look way better than it might be in a real match.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530132#Comment_3530132
I agree. Killers shouldn't have an MFT equivalent. And neither should survivors.
So hang on. Killers need to run 1) regression/slowdown to actually stand a chance 2a) addons/perks to amplify their power in chase OR 2b) chase perks to stand a chance without a chase power 3) info perks to counter super immersed survivors 4) exhaustion addons/perks to counter the POSSIBILITY of survivors bringing MFT (reminds me an awful lot of COH where killers should just "bring Shattered Hope").
But wait, on top of this, killers shouldn't 1) tunnel, whether because OTR/DS/DH exists or because any made up rulebook where survivors are the only ones allowed to play to win 2) camp because Reassurance/Kinship/Deliverance and because hooks grabs are gone anyways 3) slug because Unbreakable, Expo, and FTP/Buckle Up/Soul Guard/MFT.
And then people complain they're running into a lot of Blight/Wesker/Spirit/Nurses...
You should play Trapper because he's a pure M1 killer, with pure mindgame skill expression on both sides (less so on mine because haha 3% faster). Or are you admitting M1 killers get ######### on by MFT?
I feel like the shortest answer I can give to all that is just... no? No, you don't have to run all that.
You can, if you want to, but you can do perfectly well without any one of those. You don't need slowdown, it just helps. You can run whatever addons you want, and chase perks similarly help but aren't required. Game sense can provide a good 90% of the benefits that info perks can provide, but also, I get it; you'll pry my info perks out of my cold dead hands, they're a lot of fun.
As for anti-Exhaustion, unless I missed an update where all the current Exhaustion perks were put on a timer instead, any of those you run will help with the others, to some degree. That's why I like the idea of improving them, if they're worth running survivors might rethink some of their perk choices as they think about whether they want to gamble on facing anti-Exhaustion.
(It's also not required to face MFT, it just, again... helps. That's a bit of a theme, you may notice.)
Killers can totally tunnel or camp if they want to, they're legitimate elements of the game. Of course, because they're legitimate elements of the game, they should be balanced as such and survivors should be able to answer them, right? So the current tools to do that are, if anything, too lacking. It might be considered poor sportsmanship to do either in some circumstances, but nothing's actually stopping you.
I'm not admitting anything, my friend, I just don't see what stripping out half of the game proves. On your end, you're going to perform better because you can use all the resources on the map and don't have to care about positioning relative to your teammates (or for that matter, running into deadzones your teammates created earlier), and on my end... I cut out using my power and cut out showcasing any real macro gameplay. Don't you think that's kind of setting MFT up to look fantastic by putting it in the literal best possible scenario for its use? It doesn't seem like a particularly honest experiment to run if we're trying to ascertain the perk's meaningful strength in actual games, not least because it'd have no control sample or contrasting examples.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530121#Comment_3530121
NOED is the killer equivalent for MFT? But wait, I thought NOED was the killer equivalent for Adrenaline as an endgame second chance perk??
Killers have control over removing MFT? Enlighten me, how does one do this?
I keep saying this every time someone says "b-but 3% isn't even that bad" and no one wants to take me up on it. Do you wanna 1v1 on Coal Tower Trapper? You use any exhaust you want, I'll use MFT.
To be clear, I don't actually think NOED is the killer equivalent of MFT, because I don't think killer has or needs a direct counterpart. It'd be hard to replicate MFT's conditions on the killer side anyway. I would say NOED is the killer equivalent of Adrenaline, though, it lines up too nicely not to be. My point in bringing that up was to point out that there's already a perk that almost does what you were describing there, and that it lines up with the abstract elements of MFT - conditional, removable, extra effect - nicer. The two perks aren't actually that similar because that example of yours isn't really comparable to MFT to begin with.
The killer has control over removing MFT through Exhaustion and, technically, Exposed, though that second one will only work once. To head off a potential goalpost shift- I'm well aware that current anti-Exhaustion tools are a little hit or miss, which is why I suggested improving them.
Why would I play Trapper? He's already a weak killer that struggles, and it'd only be through luck that I play him in public matches anyway. Wouldn't the more appropriate experiment (assuming we're even of comparable skill, which we have no way of knowing) be for the killer player to play whoever they actually play more frequently? This is of course setting aside that 1v1s aren't the most realistic way of testing these things since a 1v1 survivor player doesn't have to worry about preserving resources or running the killer away from generators mid-repair.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529694#Comment_3529694
No, the perk itself is beyond busted. 20% extra distance makes up for so many misplays. The perk needs a top-down rework.
How about we make a perk for killers where they get an extra 5% permanent speedboost if there's two gens left?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529696#Comment_3529696
Sounds like you played against my Blight yesterday. I had my name as BlightBecauseMFT. Although I didn't tunnel anyone but I did play very sweaty.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529866#Comment_3529866
Some killer powers are unusable around certain tiles and become an active hinderance. And 3% is 20% of 15, hence the 20% figure... It's also 30% of 10%, so it's technically 30% against 110 killers. Bloodlust doesn't exist to make up for the existence of MFT, it exists to make up for ultra safe map design, which MFT exacerbates.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529885#Comment_3529885
Self-Care is only "bad" against Sloppy. I hate the "haha self care bad" meme. Self Care is slower on aggregate than an altruistic heal (40s vs 32s) but doesn't require a rotate to heal you, nor does it require two people to be together, with one of them being injured. It lets someone reset in a vacuum. The only reason why Self Care was ever "bad" was because COH was broken.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529918#Comment_3529918
Don't forget prerunning 10 hours in advance as soon as a TR is heard because God forbid a killer should have to hold W for less than 30 seconds to even catch up to a survivor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529938#Comment_3529938
Let me make the same argument for something survivors complain about. Ahem,
Alchemist's Ring IS all rush tokens recovered. But all rush tokens recovered can mean anything depending on how that chase is managed. So many players just play like bots and bump formulaicly instead of using proper bump logic or even flicking properly.
Alchemist's Ring isn't "free" like many survivors are arguign, nor is it quite as OP as survivors make it out to be. It's still a very strong addon, but in practice, playing Blight as an M1 killer is more effective. I've seen many, many Alchemist's Ring users whiff their rushes over and over again right as they're about to hit me, or even keep using their power over and over again and whiff when they could have forced the pallet down much sooner by holding down W, screwing themselves over so much more.
Is the point evident now? An overpowered mechanic is only overpowered in the hands of someone who isn't a complete bot. Arguing "most players are bad" is arguing in bad faith. We don't balance the game around the lowest common denominator, we balance it around the level where players are playing somewhat competently and have a general idea of how to loop/chain tiles. In this scenario, MFT is so broken as a chase extender against any killer without a proper chase power.
That wouldn't be the killer equivalent, though.
The killer equivalent would be something like a conditional 4% speed increase with an additional effect, that still requires good play to be used effectively and survivors have control over removing. Come to think of it, that sounds pretty familiar...
The actual main effect of the perk, conditional and counterable 3% speed increase, is strong but acceptable. It's all the extra stuff on top that makes the perk far too overtuned, and warrants some addressing on BHVR's part. Some of that is going to look like changing the perk itself, but I'd also argue that improving the counter-pick perks and addons would be a good direction to look in general, not just for MFT.
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Not that I'm saying the perk is 100% fine, but a perk being that fun actually would get that high of a pickrate, so that's not a particularly compelling argument.
It's also not particularly unfair or unbalanced... on its own. It still needs nerfing, but it's more to the tune of removing Endurance from it and addressing Haste stacking.
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I'd say you know a killer is popular when they're played constantly on release, which isn't quite the same thing. The best way of demonstrating this is to point to Singularity; a well designed and decently strong killer that is unpopular because he's very hard to play.
Either way, semantics aside, Xenomorph does seem great. I don't have it yet, but I'm looking forward to getting my mitts on it asap!
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The simple fact that Dead By Daylight is a very well made game that is enjoyable more frequently than it isn't, on my part.
I don't have a ton of experience in this genre, but it does also just seem to be the best around there.