jesterkind
jesterkind
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I'm pretty sure this is for an upcoming project unrelated to DBD. I filled the survey out myself and it did seem like some market research for a new title.
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I disagree, though only in the cause. I definitely believe that Sloppy is affecting solo queue games too much, but that's not because the perk itself is the problem, it's because people still refuse to run healing perks or consider healing their teammates any kind of priority.
There are so many ways you can deal with Sloppy Butcher in solo queue. Wanna heal yourself? Inner Healing is the top dog, but you can build into medkits as well if you want. You'll need some supporting perks, but it's doable.
But healing yourself isn't the right call in this situation. It'll take too long, unless you have a charge of IH. What you want to be doing is healing your teammates, and having them heal you. Now, you can bring something like Leader to have them heal you faster, but honestly, default healing speed through Sloppy isn't too bad when it's altruistic. What you want to bring are things like Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It, and even Autodidact to heal your teammates quickly, so that when they heal you it's still time saved overall.
TL;DR you can and should consider your build more carefully and seriously give thought to running healing + teammate info perks. They're extremely strong and bypass almost all forms of anti-heal that aren't the Broken status effect.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556769#Comment_3556769
I'd say Knight is pretty unaffected.
His Guards aren't really meant to hit people consistently, and MFT doesn't really change the time wasting nature of his Guards.
I erred on the side of caution since I'm not that well versed in him, but I could see that being true for sure.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556769#Comment_3556769
Explain the context behind plague, ghostface , oni , bubba etc "not caring about mft"
And the context behind wraith, myers , nemesis , sadako etc not being "as affected" by mft?
Are we seriously including killers like plague where the only time she counters mft is when survivors give her the red puke for 30 seconds?
Sure thing. As I mentioned, Plague has her Corrupt Purge, and I decided against putting her in "contextual" because that is guaranteed to happen and happen more than once. Like I said in the category description, those killers are going to notice a survivor has MFT, but they have tools to deal with it.
Ghostface has stealth and an instadown. If they heal to avoid the stealth, he Marks. If they stay injured to avoid the Mark, he ambushes them. It's not passive, you have to do well to leverage it, but it completely bypasses MFT.
Oni is pretty self explanatory. Staying injured for MFT gives him blood orbs, which in turn makes him deadly and fast enough that he doesn't care about 3% Haste.
Bubba only really notices MFT if they round a corner in time, which can happen but isn't guaranteed. Otherwise he speeds up and mows through them.
Then for the others- Wraith with uncloak addons can speed up and smack them fast enough to counter the speed boost (though he does lose distance without those addons), Myers has stealth builds, hyper chase builds, and Tombstone Piece, Nemesis doesn't care if you get to a loop faster because he shuts down both pallets and windows, Sadako is a stealth and macro killer so staying injured against her is a death sentence.
And yes, we are seriously including killers that realistically have the tools to counter MFT and aren't rendered any weaker than default M1 chasing outside of those tools. That is in fact the answer to the question you asked me, and I'll remind you that I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you didn't literally mean killers becoming unviable against MFT.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556637#Comment_3556637
Alright name the killers that can mitigate MFT.
Hard counters - Artist,Nurse,blight, wesker
soft counter but still impacted - slinger, huntress, trickster , hag
Am i missing anyone?
The other 25 are forced to chase normally and get 100% screwed by MFT , like myers, pig, ghostface , doctor , freddy , etc
Now, i conservatively said 20 previously because im aware there's certain killers with "close in " abilities like wraith and billy or pseudo anti loop like xeno and trapper, but they still have to chase normally in a tile and get screwed hard shift W chases.
It depends on how strict we're being here- technically speaking, Trapper hard counters MFT, but it would be kind of misleading to put him on a list. He'd be more like the baseline; somewhat affected by MFT via regular M1 chasing, but not significantly enough that he's any less viable than he typically is.
So, for killers that definitely do not have to care about MFT at all: Nurse, Bubba, Clown, Spirit, Plague (in Corrupt Purge, anyway), Ghostface, Oni, Pyramid Head (insofar as his power is not affected, though to be fair he doesn't have speed or hindered), Blight, Twins (except for the Endurance which they care a lot about), Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Sadako, Wesker, kiiiinda Xenomorph? These killers will all notice MFT if a skilled player is using it, but have something in their power that allows them to mitigate it almost entirely in at least most scenarios.
For killers that contextually don't care about MFT, with the right builds or in the right circumstances: Wraith (with uncloak speed addons), Billy (unless he's cucked by a terrible map), Myers (most actually viable builds don't care about MFT, but tbf, not all and his basekit does care), Trickster (just sharpens his feast or famine nature, doesn't actually change it), Huntress (dependant on what LoS blockers are around). Self explanatory; these killers have tools but may not be running them in an MFT game, or only care depending on specifics of what map they're on and what part of that map they're chasing in.
Killers at neutral: Trapper, Freddy (his snares kinda help, but they're not consistent enough), Legion. These killers basically just have to M1 chase, which means MFT is definitely doing something but isn't actively harming their power.
Killers who are actually going to notice MFT, but are still viable: Hag (harder to M1 chase but traps themselves unaffected), Doctor (messes with Shock Therapy timing), Pig (I'd argue her power is more affected by slightly harder M1 chases than the killers in neutral and it's easier to evade her ambush), Demogorgon (easier to juke his Shred, I think. Haven't tested.), Deathslinger (easier to juke for sure), Dredge, Knight. These killers aren't unplayable, but they do have to try noticeably harder or lean harder on ambushing and mindgaming.
I'm exempting Singularity from this list as I'm not entirely sure about him, and Skull Merchant because her new iteration literally has not been played by anyone yet. I'm also focusing more on the 3% Haste element of MFT primarily, because including the Endurance would slightly change this list but pretty much everyone agrees that part should go. The Haste is the contentious part, imo.
So, our list of killers that are rendered unviable is 0, and our list of killers who'll notice but can still do well sits at 7. Significantly lower than 'over 20' even if we soften your claim to the more reasonable "is mildly countered by" or "will notice".
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556587#Comment_3556587
Not really. Maybe right at the start but if a Trapper player is dedicated to play in that way, then nothing will stop them from doing it.
But I think it's alright now that traps will also spawn closer to gens. This might actually end up with him no longer being arguably the worst killer in the game. Now we can call Freddy "Pay to Lose" in good faith.
That's exactly the point. A dedicated Trapper player will do it, but players that want the path of least resistance (which is to say, most players) won't be encouraged to pursue these strategies because they'd have to go pretty far out of their way to do it.
Think about Artist, if you'll indulge an example. Artist is a well designed killer with a pretty high skill ceiling, fun to play... but hard to learn. You could spend the time it takes to figure out timings and distances, practice your predictions and cross-map shots... or you could drop a bird at a loop and force the survivor to run for a semi-easy M1. It's clear what a lot of players prefer to do. The same goes for Knight, albeit to a slightly different degree.
It'd be the same with Trapper. You could learn the optimal trap spots and predict survivor pathing, spreading your web as thin as you can make it while maintaining your own proximity to the traps... or you could just dump all your stuff around your first hook in the basement.
It's not just about what's possible, it's about what's easy. It should be difficult for Trapper to do these things, and making them easier won't actually help him in terms of overall health.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556703#Comment_3556703
My point is that you can not balance SoloQ for what voice comms MIGHT have, as someone already said there are SWFs with no comms.
You can, however, balance the game around ensuring everyone in a scenario like camping has the information they need to begin countering it. Do we want to fix camping or don't we? Because allowing this mechanic to work as intended by making sure everyone can capitalise on it, not just SWF, would be required if we do.
There are also still some basekit gaps in knowledge gain. It's not at all absurd for a multiplayer game to provide its player with information, it's true of most games I can think of, and so DBD can fairly be considered behind the curve. For instance, solo players still don't know what perks their team are running. That's a gap that can fairly be filled.
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I do agree, but to be fair, that does just mean Kindred hasn't changed as a required perk.
It'd be nice if there was a bar that fills in the survivor HUD for camped survivors, similar to generator repair. That way you'd know the killer's generally around without seeing a full aura (which would be way too strong at base), and can even kinda guess how close based on the speed. It'd be something to make sure everyone knows what's happening without causing any balance issues elsewhere.
Other than that, I do think it's a mistake to treat every change that isn't solo queue specific improvements as an active slight against solo queue. Other things do get done and not everything has to include specific solo queue elements.
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Claw traps still inflict Broken, and scanning survivors with a Claw Trap still inflicts Hindered. Deploying a drone still gives you Undetectable, making staying injured against her reasonably more threatening.
It's okay for a killer's power to not down. Legion's power only injures and that's a pretty well designed, reasonably strong power. New Skull Merchant may not have gone in a direction I personally like, but she's definitely stronger at most of what she did before now.
It's still very much a tactical, macro power, which is a good sign. With some of the skill expression removed in the PTB being added back in with the rotation direction changing, I'm feeling more warm towards it myself.
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Super excited for this change, it's so much smarter than giving him all of his traps. That'd be a terrible idea, but this promotes Trapper's healthier gameplay and doesn't make it substantially easier for him to go for anything too obnoxious.
I'd still prefer they spawn closer to him, but I really can't complain about this change. Massive W.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556622#Comment_3556622
Ah yes, lemme just somehow outskill a survivor in a shift W chase.
Or maybe have the hindsight to have played one of the 6 or 7 killers out of 33 that can mitigate the problem that the 3% haste is.
Any suggestions or opinions containing "get gud" or "play x killer" are on multiple levels of unhealthy and just show extreme bias.
Nobody in their right minds would see a perk that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable and still defend the perk.
The snag, of course, being that there is not currently a perk in the game that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable.
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It would empower his most obnoxious playstyles (3-gen protection, basement camping, and proxy camping around strong hooks after first down with a million traps) and would push people away from learning how to play him properly as they wouldn't need to consider their traps carefully anymore. It's a bad idea for buffing him, and while the buff he's getting here is not exactly what I personally want, it is extremely useful.
This is going to be a great update for Trapper and I'm looking forward to playing him more frequently than I currently do.
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I think it'd probably be smarter to buff her crouch rather than mess with her default stats. If she moved faster while crouched, she'd get better results than just having a smaller terror radius while standing.
Honestly, I don't see the need to slow her down at all. She can't M1 until she stands back up, it's not like she'd be broken or able to abuse moving at full speed while stealthed.
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the reason we're getting PTB dev updates a little later than usual is because BHVR want to cut down on the amount of time people have to hysterically scream about changes before they've even had a chance to test them.
I'm not saying they are doing that, but I'd support them doing it, even if it does suck to not get to read the changes in advance of them happening.
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It is good that she's finally getting lore updates, at least. That's long overdue, especially considering how much attention she gets elsewhere.
Plus, the other characters involved are pretty fun picks. I'd say it's a fine tome overall based on its characters.
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@HPhoenix said:
5 months is a long time!
I am starting to think that the devs will keep meta perks for half a year before another major perk shake up. However, this is a theory that been building in my mind for quite a while, but that just me.
the next perk meta shake up will be in July 2024.
You watch! xD
What are you basing that on? I'm curious, they've only done one perk meta shake up so far so I'm not sure how you'd establish a pattern there.
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I'm holding out hope for more legendary skins to add more characters in, myself.
BHVR already acknowledged the Revelations games with Jill's wetsuit, it's not cope to think it's possible I'll get an Alex Wesker skin, it's not cope,
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555834#Comment_3555834
I was not only talking about EMPs, at its core overclock isnt the montrous power that people say warrants EMPs, I can just greed the pallet since the TP gives me a distance of separation between us. Or if I am somehow injured then MfT will make sure greeding against singularity conveys no risk at all. Overclock isnt really something to be scared of in chase its still an m1 killer just with a bit of flavour for some seconds.
Overclock comes combined with a teleport. It makes greeding loops much riskier in short range, and makes chases start much faster if used at long range.
It's not as overwhelming as top tier powers but it is definitely a strong and useful power that warrants counterplay like the EMPs. If the EMPs didn't exist, Singularity would be monstrous.
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I don't see how Singularity can 3-gen any more effectively than the average killer, considering that the time it takes to build up both infection and then the teleport makes them incredibly inefficient for protecting generators.
Now, don't get me wrong, all killers can 3-gen too well if they really want to, but BHVR are looking at that.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555769#Comment_3555769
The amount of effort you put into him is nowhere close to the payoff you get, if I practice blight I can see my skill affecting the match, with singularity there is a cap to what you can do and that cap is mostly controlled by survivors.
Blight is the second strongest killer in the entire game. That level of results is not required for a killer to be well designed, even in scenarios where you have to put in a lot of effort.
I disagree with that second part a lot more, too. Singularity's power is not controlled by the survivors in that way, it just has more straightforward counterplay than some other powers in the game. EMPs are good, they're not overtuned anymore.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555771#Comment_3555771
Yes... thats why i called it a pure gen slam perk...
Why would you waste a *perk slot* to give your flashlight an extra second when an addon alone gives you 6 seconds.
The "teammates within 8 meters also benefit..." indicates the intended use is WITH toolboxes, because theres no realistic scenario in which people are going to double blind or double medkit heal together.
My point is, rework toolboxes and Streetwise stops being unhealthy. Same for the other item perks, like Built To Last.
There's no point in changing Streetwise when it ranges from borderline useless to just okay in all scenarios except one. Additionally, the scenario in question is already unhealthy without Streetwise in play. Given those two things, it's a little silly to call the perk unhealthy, don't you think?
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555155#Comment_3555155
I'm talking about the difference between restricting and killing perks and at the same time making perks that offer the same benefits and are very easy
Also, making everyone scream just because you opened a hacker and revealed their locations is not considered bad information
If you do not find them, just open the locker and you will find them very easily. Hiding is almost dead
As for THWACK! You can use it once and you will need another hook, and you cannot use it as desired because sometimes you will have to break pallets or breakable walls. whether you need this information or not
So that's my point why Ultimate Weapon gets freedom of use and barely any restrictions while THWACK! It had a chance to have a good usage rate, but the developers chose to kill it with unnecessary restrictions for fear of it getting out of hand.
This applies to all Perks
When I say worse information, I mean the screams themselves. I'm not saying they're useless, obviously, but they are dramatically less useful than auras. That's why THWACK! was given more of a requirement; it gives you the much stronger form of info, in the form of seeing the survivor's auras.
Ultimate Weapon is stronger than THWACK!, but that's not because of what it does. What it does - makes the survivor scream then inflicts Blindness - is strictly weaker than what THWACK! does. It's stronger because THWACK! has too many requirements and just won't be that commonly activated, and because Ultimate Weapon kinda doesn't have enough requirements + is active for way too long.
The point that they're not actually that similar outside of being tracking perks stands, though. Also, the devs obviously didn't "decide to kill" any perk, they just made a poor balancing decision. Big difference between those two things.
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@WilliamSN said:
Pentimento - requires a secondary hex perk to work like plaything, or a survivor doing a totem challange to even start activating, then can be countered just by cleaning out the totems again - fine as is.
Buckle up - Did not need the 10s of endurance, a proper "buff" would have been keeping the 10% haste and giving 1-2 seconds of endurance to protect the pickup if the killer swung right away. a guaranteed free escape in endgame thanks to BU is fundamentally unhealthy.
STBFL - Perk requires M1s only, takes time to build up stacks, stacks can be lost if you M1 the obession , only rework it could use is making it so M2s on the obsession also consumed tokens. otherwise, its fine as is.
Adrenaline - much like otz said, adren working off the hook and giving a speedboost + free healthstate is ridiculous. perk needs to be reworked to only activate IF you're the one to finish the last gen AND cannot trigger off the hook. having your last chase be essentially reset because adren goes brrr is fundamentally unhealthy.
MFT - Has been discussed before, but to keep it simple, 20-30% chase extension just for holding W + the free 10s endurance on any heal is fundamentally unhealthy, perk should have never made it past the brainstorm stage.
Knockout - only purpose is to literally slug, perk could be deleted and nothing of value would be lost.
Deliverance - Encourages tunneling, and punishes the killer for *not tunneling* by deleting pressure for free. Perk needs to be reworked to work the other way around, if the killer tunnels the person you just unhooked then you get deliverance. until then, its unhealthy.
NWO - Only issue is the 1v1, otherwise its fine.
Power struggle , forced hesitation , boil over, pain res, UW, FTD,Coulrophobia and rancor are fine as is.
Hope - allowing survivors to be as fast or almost as fast as the killer will never be balanced, perk needs to have a time limit. unhealthy.
Streetwise - Stacks on itself, allows a Wirespool+Socket commodius to crank out 60~/90 charges off a gen in roughly 30 seconds, stacks with itself for even bigger benefits. Pureform genslam perk. extremely unhealthy.
Hyperfocus - fine as is, only problematic when paired with other genslam perks.
OTR - Much like otz mentioned, 80s is way too long, allows the unhooker to bodyblock for essentially free, which defeats its purpose of "anti tunneling", allows the survivor to interact with killer powers without losing the endurance. Any anti-tunneling perk that can be used offensively to punish the killer for *not tunneling* is fundamentally unhealthy.
Noed + insidious - unhealthy.
Shattered hope should be basekit.
Yours and Otz's rundown of why Streetwise is unhealthy only proves that toolboxes are unhealthy, not Streetwise.
Look at the best case scenario for using Streetwise with literally any other item. It's very clearly not unhealthy in any of those, just when it's used with toolboxes.
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He's about as far from a failed killer design as you can get, unless the only marker for success you use is popularity.
He was never going to be a popular killer. Macro-heavy killers never are, let alone macro-heavy killers that are as hard to play as Singularity. Despite that, he has a strong and rewarding power that has a clear mechanical niche in terms of fun factor. He's pretty well designed, he's just very hard.
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John Constantine in his Vertigo iteration. He's a perfect fit for DBD.
I can't think of any non-licensed lore characters I'd want to see, I'm not that deep into this game's lore.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555520#Comment_3555520
I don’t think the realistic use you get out of inner healing is gonna help when you slow the gens down for the rest of the team all because you wanted to eat the dull totem.
Eh, if you're the one who cleansed the totem to begin with, it's only slowing the gens down for as long as it takes to get back over there and cleanse it again.
If you aren't the one who cleansed it, that's great too, it means that totem wasn't stolen from you.
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@FrenchBagels said:
I’ve always hated Pentimento because it completely invalidates most builds a survivor has that are totem related.
I used to run Inner Healing 24/7. Was great. Then Pentimento/Plaything became a thing and I realized that they don’t want us touching totems ever unless Devour Hope is in the mix.
Doesn't Pentimento just give you more charges of Inner Healing? I'd probably be pretty happy to see Pentimento in a match where I'm running Inner Healing.
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There were a few good takes in there that I agreed with, but man, there are some huge flaws in this one.
For starters, he completely failed to demonstrate why Deliverance is unhealthy outside of like, comp level play where you'd be expecting someone to have it. It's not the kind of perk you have to play around even if it isn't there, but that's the way he was treating it, which felt very weird to me.
There's also a couple perks in here that aren't problematic even by his argument against them? Like Streetwise, which is pretty clearly a perfectly fine and healthy perk that only becomes obnoxious regarding toolboxes. Considering toolboxes need to be nerfed anyway, it's really weird to put Streetwise on this list.
In general, there's a weirdly huge emphasis on tunnelling, and a repetition of the bizarre idea that a perk is "punishing" players when it activates, which really isn't how that works. I do think it was pretty irresponsible of him to tell people that you need to tunnel, when that's absolutely not true, but that's kind of besides the point here. What I think all this demonstrates is that Otz has sort of lost touch with what DBD looks like for the average player, and not someone with ten thousand hours who plays it for a living and regularly faces off against literal comp teams like him. Not the worst problem to have, but it's where some of the bizarre takes in this video came from, I'm willing to bet.
Also, advocating for an honest to god dramatic nerf to NOED in 2023 is laughable.
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Just tweeted an hour ago - October 18th.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555137#Comment_3555137
Ah, so Trapper is weak because people are not skillful enough.
Now, let's stop and think about this for a moment. Did I just say that Trapper is weak because people are not skilful enough?
It's clear that I'm referring to a very very specific thing as not being skilful: Getting a hook and passively wandering around (within 16m) instead of engaging survivors in chase. Is it required to be that passive while playing Trapper? No, the degree to which you can get results with Trapper (which isn't much) is defined instead by how active you are, and how well you capitalise on survivor positioning.
With that in mind, is this a fair response to my post? I don't think it is. I think it's squashing together several different angles on the wider topic of Trapper's balance, and isn't at all a response to the specific thing I was actually saying nor the specific thing this post is actually saying.
Within the context of the anti-FC change, skilful Trapper play won't be affected. Does that mean skilful Trapper play is rewarding and strong outside of that context? Not particularly, but it's better than skill-less Trapper play, and it isn't affected by the anti-FC change.
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THWACK! and Ultimate Weapon are not at all an example of this, they're an example of a much more fair perk design idea: High reward high cost, low reward low cost.
THWACK! has much stronger info, but activates in more strict scenarios. Ultimate Weapon has much worse info, but activates much more frequently. Players gravitate towards whatever is easier to utilise most frequently, so UW is the better pick (and would be even without that as THWACK! is honestly pretty weak despite having the stronger form of info), but they aren't the same perk at all.
Honestly, they're not even that similar? THWACK! has a lot more in common with Face the Darkness, as they're both tracking perks that utilise auras after a scream, whereas Ultimate Weapon is much more similar to Darkness Revealed due to being tracking perks that work after opening a locker. They're all tracking perks, sure, but they aren't the only tracking perks and there's only so many actions in the game that could be used to trigger them.
The even better example than Collective Stealth is Power of Two, btw. That's literally just Blood Pact with fewer requirements. It doesn't happen that frequently in this game but it has happened a few times, you could argue Haddie's Inner Focus is also a weaker Empathy/Bond-- but I'd argue that being a weaker version of two perks in one makes it a liiiittle more acceptable.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555132#Comment_3555132
He’s a territorial Killer. Usually focusing traps on a certain area. A trapped Survivor will likely be placed on a nearby hook creating a radius in his territory that needs to be avoided. A small speed boost when placing traps is a laughable “buff.”
That area is pretty significantly larger than sixteen metres, though, and again- if he's chasing a survivor, which is the thing he's meant to be doing inside his territory, the anti-FC system is weakened considerably. Nothing's changed about Trapper being territorial, he just has to be active within his territory, which isn't meaningfully a nerf if you play him skilfully.
As for the speed boost, pair it with the Coffee Grounds addon and a setting speed addon and see how laughable it actually is. It's not nothing, it helped quite a bit on the PTB.
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I don't think preventing any killer from camping should be considered a direct nerf to them, to be fair.
Besides, you get the snowball pressure from survivors stepping in the traps you set around the hook, so as long as that's happening the anti-FC mechanic is already moving a lot slower. Also, he did get buffs in this patch that, provided they aren't weakened from the PTB, do make him stronger for things other than camping.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555032#Comment_3555032
Bare minimum, reworked Skull Merchant gets more consistent Haste from chasing survivors into drones.
that is wrong. you get more speed with current skull merchant because survivors staying the lock-on zone grant same benefits as those with a claw trap. in rework version, you have to complete 3 lock-on stacks to do same as current version that needs 0 lock-on stacks.
I didn't say more, I said more consistent. Survivors linger on the scanner after they're detected for a handful of seconds (I think ten?), compared to before where one person running straight through a drone would give you a considerably shorter Haste duration.
That isn't nothing, even if the number is lower having it active for longer will improve that chase considerably. Again, I do not like this rework, but there are some things it has going for it from a more objective standpoint.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554662#Comment_3554662
how can skull merchant go for a chasing play-style when entire play-style revolves around survivors running into drones that do not detect them? disregarding the rework, the current version of skull merchant is not getting any claw traps currently through regular play. the new one will be even worse because series amount of negative changes put into her kit which is long list of them. the purple add-on's allowed her to gain some of claw trap effects without relying on survivor on the survivor. now that they have irrelevant effects, her chase is worse then prior to the change.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554818#Comment_3554818
The ones that remain will be those who don’t put up much of a fight and accept losing from the get go. You ever play against multiple friendly Killers? Gets boring real fast.
bvhr always keep few killers strong. it is just that the people that play killer face a lot of repetition because they have to enjoy playing the killer that BVHR keeps strong. it creates a problem where you have lack of reason to choose other killers because the power-level difference is too high.
Bare minimum, reworked Skull Merchant gets more consistent Haste from chasing survivors into drones. Her kit needs buffs, because you're right, the drones don't detect survivors consistently enough for claw traps to be something you can reliably use, but the bones of what would be a perfectly fine power are there right now.
Even if she is just strictly weaker though, that doesn't really change my overall point about killer reworks not being primarily just to address issues on the survivor side. She just becomes something of an exception, and not for lack of trying.
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Trap killers absolutely have skill expression, they just push you towards a different type of expression than traditional looping. Their skill expression is tactical and macro, about how you react to traps and how proactive you are about disabling them.
They're harder to balance and I'll believe that a lot of people don't like facing them, but I don't think this criticism is fully accurate.
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Doctor feeling clunky and awful to play, Leatherface feeling clunky and being really weak, Legion being weak and undertuned, Ghostface being weak and undertuned, Plague feeling frustrating and clunky, and Trapper being very, very weak. These are all examples of killer reworks (some major, some minor) that weren't solely or primarily motivated by survivor frustration. There's also the upcoming Twins changes, which are sure to be big enough to warrant being called a rework and were definitely not motivated by survivor frustration.
To the second part: Doctor and Sadako are better than they were pre-rework, so that's not quite true. Skull Merchant remains to be seen, but would be an outlier if she does end up straight worse.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553154#Comment_3553154
Doctor and Sadako were reworked because they had unfun play styles Survivors did not like. 3 genning with passive permanent madness building and condemned respectively. Current doctor is okay at best, MFT completely ruins his ability to disrupt loops with his shock. Sadako’s condemned is destroyed by players who understand the mechanics. They also kept the lullaby of a “stealth” Killer.
Skull Merchant is having her ability to 3 gen removed, fair enough, but given nothing in return. Survivors won’t have to deal with 3 gen Merchant, that’s all that matters.
Freddy, Trapper, Hillbilly, Pig, and Clown have been left to rot, M1 Killers have in general. No reworks for them because they are not bothering Survivors. Sadako and SM will be in the gutter with the other trash Killers soon enough. I expect a few to try to make them work for a bit before throwing in the towel.
Again, Doctor was before my time, but everything I've seen regarding that rework indicates he was largely reworked because he was clunky and awkward to play. Certainly, even if that wasn't the intention, fixing that was undeniably the result of him being reworked.
For Sadako, it was a combination. Her Condemned build before was obnoxious for survivors, but at the same time, killer player feedback was that she wasn't strong enough at doing anything else. That was the reason for her rework, even if you personally think it didn't help enough.
Skull Merchant is having her chase increased, there's no denying that. She actually can go for her chase playstyle without expensive purple addons on the PTB, and with some improvements that she may or may not get, will be fine overall. She won't be strong, but she'll be a lot better than she was. I don't personally like the rework, but it's clear what the reasoning behind it was and it's clear that she will be at least strictly better in terms of strength afterwards.
I find your last list here interesting. Pig's been left to rot? She's been buffed almost as many times in a row at this point as the string of nerfs that prompted the meme, she absolutely is not languishing. Pig's actually kinda good these days. Trapper also is getting changes in this PTB/update, so he's clearly not being left to rot either- and the devs have an actual stated reason for not giving him a full rework, if that's what you're after specifically.
For the rest of those killers, I think it's probably safer to assume they haven't been changed because they can't change every killer at once (or only ever focus on improving killers, for that matter) and they're just kinda low priority. Freddy is weak and boring but let's face it, he's not exactly popular. Hillbilly suffers from new map design, sure, but they are addressing that and people still like him, both to play and to face. Clown may be on the weaker side, but a killer that's just only decent is pretty unambiguously low priority for changes compared to something like Skull Merchant.
You're kinda missing the forest for the trees when you say "because they aren't bothering survivors". For one, survivors are players too, so their feedback and experience does matter, but more importantly... think about what "bothering survivors" means in this context. In this context, it means games that stretch out for an hour because Skull Merchant is (was, thankfully) too good at 3-genning. Is that not a complaint that warrants swift adjustment? Is it not unambiguously more important than a handful of killers that are unproblematic but kind of weak? There's a point at which something "bothering" survivors does actually need to be fixed, and quickly. It would be the same if there were something that broken "bothering" killer players too.
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I'd really rather be able to see whenever a survivor runs into a cornfield, so I'd prefer if they didn't bring back the old versions.
Plus, I like the TCM-inspired harsh sunlight, I think it's a lot more distinct than just having another gloomy map you can barely see on, as used to be the norm.
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We should start from a basic acknowledgement: Barring specific outlier situations, gen speed is pretty good right now. It's within the killer's control how efficient survivors are, and good play is rewarded with decent slowdown.
That being said, those specific outlier situations are too strong. I'd personally look at two things that can cause generator speeds to progress at a rate killers can't deal with: Toolboxes, and spawning all spread out.
Toolboxes doesn't require much explanation as a pick here. They offer massive gen speed, and with the best setup spread across all four survivors, they can knock off ridiculous amounts of gen time. Rather than just straight nerfing them, as that'd just make them kinda useless outside of saboteur plays, I'd rather see them reworked to provide a shield against regression instead of speed. No speed bonus, but your progression is 'protected' to a degree.
Spawning spread out is a massive issue too, pretty much equivalent. It's only compounded when they all spread out with toolboxes, but we've already addressed that. To avoid scenarios where three generators are completed just after your first chase, I'd personally recommend survivors needing to spawn either in groups of two, or all spawning together.
With those changes made, the killer's early game is less susceptible to massive disadvantages outside their control, and that puts generator speeds largely in the hands of how skilled every player is, which is where things should be imo.
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@Juicyman said:
Tapp gang. I ended up making DBD my main game around peak Undying/Ruin (back when you had to disable all 5 totems as NOED was also prevalent) and I made it my goal to dismantle every bone on the map, best perk for that was Detective's Hunch. Fortunate that Tapp gets some cosmetics, especially those funky shades.
Detective's Hunch believers rise up...
Nice to see a kindred spirit there!
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@mecca said:
It's not balanced at all. For context, please remember when healing was drastically nerfed (removing killer progress) and killer slowdown perks was nerfed at the same time to give a slight resemblance of fair balance?
Well guess what happened thereafter? Killer slowdown perks are BUFFED!? POP was reverted. Pain Resonance BUFFED to remove a full gen worth of progress when used. Killers are using slowdown perks all the time yet nothing is being done.
CoH and healing, medkits are STILL NERFED. Enough said.
Healing was buffed, not nerfed.
Self healing was nerfed, in that the two most overpowered elements of it were brought in line, but it's not so drastic that you can't do it anymore. That's a good thing.
Pop also wasn't reverted, its current implementation is still weaker than it was prior to 6.1.0. Pain Res was buffed from the PTB but it's still only a sidegrade to what it used to be- and since it only happens four times it's pretty balanced, I like new Pain Res a lot more than the old one for game health reasons.
To the wider topic, Pop is balanced because it's limited and requires doing well. You get decent enough regression numbers for winning a chase, correctly identifying the right generator to hit, and spending your time going and doing that. It promotes a healthy gameplay loop, and it isn't overbearing even in its best case scenarios- it's just strong.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554331#Comment_3554331
What I'm saying is if you win (Kill/Escape), you get points, and if you lose (Escape/Kill), you lose points. The devs have stated that MMR works effectively as 4 independent 1v1s. That means you can Win/Lose/Lose/Lose, but the points gained from the win can eclipse the points lost from the losses (in theory). The +20-6-6-6 yields a positive 2, despite including 3 losses. The points gained or lost is based on the difference of you and your opponent. It is more impressive to win against Federer in Tennis, and less punishing to lose against him. Similarly it is more embarrassing to lose against your 4 yr old niece/nephew when you both are actually trying to win. The points awarded/removed are based on this difference in MMR. The devs have separately said they adjust MMR gains/losses based on the amount of kills, and IIRC they said later deaths penalize the the Survivor's MMR less as the death is more 'expected' with fewer Survs.
I'm aware, but I wasn't really talking about the MMR system, that's kind of a different topic. It is interesting that your MMR can go up despite a loss, if the difference between your opponents is pronounced enough, but it's not super relevant to the point I was making or the argument I was responding to.
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Voice chat is a terrible, terrible idea for a multitude of reasons. There's a bunch of downsides and literally zero consistent upsides; it certainly can't actually address the issue, so it's void on that count alone.
That said, there are things that the game could implement. People bring up some kind of chat wheel consistently, and while I think that might be a bit tonally off, mechanically it would definitely do the job. Other than that, some form of basekit Kindred (survivor aura only) would do a lot to shore up the worst potential of solo queue, and seeing your teammate's perks in the lobby and in game would be a must no matter what.
It's important to remember that solo queue's issues are split between two problems, and one of them is unsolvable. In every single multiplayer team game, queuing up solo means you might get complete potatoes who refuse to play as a part of a team and throw the match for you. That isn't fixable, and it's not even a matchmaking issue. It's just how it is, you might get people who don't want to play as a team.
The other problem is fixable. There's a lack of information in solo queue that means even players who do want to play as a team have to rely either on extreme guesswork, or dedicating parts of their build just to be brought up to a baseline. Improving basekit information gain would do a lot to help there.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554312#Comment_3554312
To be fair in one respect, the MMR point gain is what determines a 'win/loss' compared to the Kill/Escape. We assume each Survivor and Killer are tied in MMR for the formula in general. Hypothetically if a Bubba facecamps and only kills the god Survivor (+20 points), and 3 Survs escape (-6 points, -6 points, -6 points), the facecamping Bubba is net positive 2 points and 'won' MMR-wise. The inverse is also possible, with a 3k (+6 Killer points each) and the 4th getting gate (-20 Killer points) being net negative 2 points and a 'loss' MMR-wise. This is the only way I can see that person's point could be considered valid, is if they believe themself so superior to all of the Survivors that their MMR is lightyears above, making the escapes -(big number) and the kills +(small number) or some other disjointed mess. If that is the point they aren't saying, but are meaning, then they are technically correct.
The MMR is based on the win condition, not the other way around.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554216#Comment_3554216
It doesnt matter what you "feel" , a 5 gen pop + 3E will forever be a win. Stop trying to strawman.
Survivors are a team and either win as a team or lose as a team.
Survivors popping all gens and getting a 2E because the killer decided to facecamp 2 Survivors in endgame still means the survivor team won the game and there's no way around this.
Dbd is a 1 v 4, not a 1v1+1+1+1.
The survivor win condition is to escape, not to open the exit gates. Even if we strictly look at the survivor team as a whole and completely disregard the individual component, open exit gates and a 2E is a survivor draw, not a survivor win.
Considering it's a survivor draw, it must also necessarily be a killer draw, because that's what "draw" means.
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@Juicyman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554277#Comment_3554277
That's part of the theoretical vacuum I was mentioning, unfortunately staying injured these days isn't the big threat it usually is because of the HUD update (tracking who is getting chased), and, in these scenarios, we're also not considering the ability of the Survivors to simply see the Killer or even hear the T2 Terror Radius of Myers. I agree that as written these Killers have the correct tools to punish staying injured/exposed to avoid MFT, but there's so many common outliers for these characters that they ultimately remain at the mercy of MFT because both of them don't have reliable powers.
It's not really that theoretical, it's just how games go.
They're stealthy. Ghostface is Undetectable so unless it's super open, you can ambush super easily. That's not theoretical, that's just... how it is. Myers has a super small TR, especially with Dead Rabbit, so survivors have a very short timeframe to react to hearing the heartbeat. That's not theoretical, that's just how it is.
You do have to actually play well, you don't get to passively benefit from it with no input on your side, but those tools are just there. The only real detracting factor is that they're map dependant, if you get an open map it can be hard to leverage your stealth.
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@Juicyman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554229#Comment_3554229
Every time I see Hens and co (the ones with the over 200 win streak with restrictive rules) the SM never comes close, even when she's chessing, it simply isn't a free win. Pretty sure that infamous video was Team Eternal's first attempt at that SM playstyle and at this point they've, and the other teams, have figured it out.
Myers and GF have the "tools" in a theoretical vacuum but you'd be mistaken if you don't think they're plagued by numerous obstacles (namely eyes). Their answer can't be only to get exposed downs because that's not readily available, nor realistic, in a normal game for them because of how long it takes. And Pig? Her lunge can barely function as is and that's not even considering MFT which she at least, in this same vacuum, is forced to chase down.
Myers, Ghostface, and to a lesser extent Pig are all stealth killers. Staying injured against them is a very risky play, especially if they're particularly skilled players, so most survivors aren't going to want to risk it. If they do, you leverage your stealth to get the drop on them. If they don't, that's where Myers and Ghosty get to use their Exposed.
Pig comes out weakest, but Pig also has ways of emphasising the pressure she does get. Even if you don't have a way of getting a down other than basic M1 play, that down is more potent because of RBTs.
That's kinda the thing about MFT. Basically every killer can deal with it because while a 3% boost in speed is strong, it's not insurmountable and it's conditional - and the conditions it has puts pressure on how both sides play.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553798#Comment_3553798
Unfortunately, BL tends to reset when you use your power or when you break a pallet. So it doesn't matter how high you can get it, all it takes is one safe pallet drop and you're forced to do it all over again.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553799#Comment_3553799
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553802#Comment_3553802
The perk's performance in a micro setting is directly correlated to its performance in a macro setting. There's a reason we use the words "micro" and "macro", because the plural of micro is macro. If MFT acts as a chase extender for every survivor running it by, say, 30s (micro), it buys every single survivor on the map 3x30s to do gens/reset/do whatever, unbothered (macro). Things in DBD don't happen in a vacuum. A 1v1 tests the perk's performance in a micro, and the killer choice/map choice is to set a standard for a fairly killer sided map, and a pure M1 killer. Or, we can also bring up the math that's been done numerous times before showing how egregious of a chase extender MFT is.
The fact that things in DBD don't happen in a vacuum is why that 1v1 wouldn't prove anything. That is a vacuum, you're putting it in a vacuum where all of the factors that actually go into dictating its strength are removed.
There's no macro play for either side; that's a detriment for the killer (as macro play is generally an avenue of skill expression for killers) but a boon for the survivor (as macro play is generally a limiter on survivors, like avoiding running the killer into your teammates).
There's no power in play; that's solely a detriment to the killer and therefore also a boon to the survivor. No real game of DBD is going to play out without any power use outside of self-imposed challenges.
There's no longterm to consider; that's a boon to the survivor because they have free reign to use every pallet on the map, and a detriment to the killer because those deadzones won't be useful later due to there not being a later.
Not only is it not related to how real matches go, it also is massively skewed in favour of the survivor. It wouldn't prove anything no matter what perk you're trying to test.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553743#Comment_3553743
What does testing the effect of the perk in a micro setting have to do with the performance of the perk in a micro setting? That's a tough one... Let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
But what does the performance of the perk in a micro setting have to do with the perk's balancing in the actual game?
A powerless killer in a 1v1 where the survivor doesn't have to worry about preserving resources isn't really going to tell you much of anything at all about how strong any perk is, especially chase perks. Put something like Sprint Burst or Lithe in that scenario and not only will it completely shred MFT's value, it'll also substantially outperform real match examples of itself.