jesterkind
jesterkind
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602330#Comment_3602330
If it doesn’t immediately land perhaps assess why it was done in the first place and maybe see it was a bad idea in the first place.
Overheat does nothing but hamper Billy, thete are no positives. It also stops people from playing him as now you have consider the Overheat while getting timing right.
You brought up perception, exactly. Even if it has no effect mechanically, it has a psychological effect that results in less chainsaw use, especially for people who are learning him.
Yeah, absolutely assess it. My point is that after it's assessed, at least in this game, you'll very rarely find that it was a bad idea.
Overheat, sure, whatever. Get rid of it, it doesn't make a difference either way. That's a bit of an outlier, though, and again- doing that won't fix Hillbilly. It won't even help.
I am gonna push back on the idea that you "need to consider Overheat" now, though. No you don't, lol. You have to go out of your way to actually have Overheat matter. It has no positives but it has no negatives, either. It does nothing.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602221#Comment_3602221
So if you make a wrong turn, don’t turn around, floor it instead. That seems to summarize BHVR’s philosophy.
And honestly, if Overheat is such a nothing mechanic, remove it.
...No. If what you try doesn't immediately land, adjust it first before giving up. This summarises decent live game design in general.
I'm fine with removing Overheat, I just think too many people are under the impression this will change anything. Billy will be in the exact same position as before, and tossing away the time and effort won't actually achieve anything. Keeping it probably won't achieve anything either, so I'm not saying that time and effort was valuable to begin with, but in general you usually don't wanna waste those two things if you can avoid it.
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Others have pointed out, Mettle of Man.
I'd say there's not very many because there's been very, very few things that should be reverted. Bad changes are almost always, at least in this game, things that you'd fix by going forward, not going backwards. This is evident in your examples- you don't fix Hillbilly by reverting Overheat, because Overheat isn't actually causing problems, you'd have to move forward. You don't fix Trickster by reverting his changes, because some of them were good and should stay. You don't need to revert or redo Skull Merchant because she's fine now, more or less.
There are other examples throughout the game's history. A big one would be the initial change to the HUD; it started out pretty damn bad, but instead of just reverting it, they moved forward and made it better than both what they had and what they were replacing in the first place.
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From DBD itself, I'd still like to see the studio that Trickster's bandmates died in. I initially wanted that as a Hawkins reskin, but I think they could start from scratch and still do it just as well.
From licenses...
Kino Der Toten from CoD Black Ops' zombies mode. Open it up a little bit and maybe make some areas inaccessible just so it flows as a DBD map better, and I think it has some promise. Might be a little too similar to the RPD main area, but that's a risk I'd be willing to take.
New Vegas from Fallout: New Vegas could be neat too. Split it between part of the Strip and part of Freeside, maybe.
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I mean, other than the important announcements (that are posted there), what else is it really meant to be?
The official twitter account of a game should be expected to post important announcements and marketing information on new sales and new content. That's what the DBD twitter account does, so what's the issue?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600451#Comment_3600451
What precedent? Which killer has been reworked enough to become strong? The last I can think of is Freddy, and he was then nerfed to the ground. By the ratio of changes alone, there are objectively more things that help survivors.
Well, you're adding an extra requirement onto the sentence there. I said they'd help and they'd be good changes, I didn't say the killers in question would "become strong". I think the killers in question for prior examples - minus Deathslinger and Trickster - did get stronger, but I don't know what your bar for "becoming strong" would be so I can't really answer that.
You're also saying there are "objectively" more things that help survivors, but again, that's based on your assumption that the changes - which we haven't seen - will be outright bad. That's not objective, that's a speculative opinion.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600179#Comment_3600179
The perk nerfs and the “3 gen solution “ will almost certainly be detrimental to the killer, while the “improvements” are unlikely to matter.
Gotcha. You can forgive my confusion considering that's a very different statement to the one I initially responded to.
Regardless, I disagree. Recent precedent indicates that at least some of the killer updates are going to be quite nice, and some killer improvements (like the FOV slider) are very likely to be just straight up good.
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@haktas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600179#Comment_3600179
Do you guys ever watch tournaments? https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1979270748
They use an A tier killer but can't even take 3k. This game is definitely swf sided. They don't nothing about swf. They can use same characters, same perks, same stuffs, same offerings and make fun of the killers. Don't fool yourself, they don't care about the killers and soloq.
What would tournaments prove about anything...?
Those aren't the overall state of the game. They're a hyper specific subset of players in an artificially controlled environment, it's not at all reflective of the actual game. This is true of all tournaments, to be clear, not just DBD.
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No, generators are not too fast.
There's a combination of factors at play when killers feel like they are going too fast, though, and some of them do actually warrant attention. For instance, when a team of good survivors spawn on separate generators with good toolboxes and they don't mess around doing anything else before they start repairing, pretty much any killer is going to lose three generators in time for their first hook, and that's a huge detriment to overcome at the start of the match. Toolboxes and survivor spawns are absolutely worth addressing for this and other reasons.
On the other hand, we have situations where generators fly because killers aren't applying any pressure; they're focused trying to tunnel out one guy who isn't going down super quickly, or they're only ever occupying two survivors at once because they're very focused on reacting to unhooks, or they're running all four slowdowns and struggling elsewhere because most slowdowns in the game require action to use these days. In these scenarios, it's a case of the player needing to learn what they're doing wrong, and I do empathise with how difficult that can be in the moment without any direction. Still, it's not the game's fault, when these situations do occur.
To answer the last question, killers run all four slowdowns because it's easier than the alternatives-- or at least, the perception is that it's easier. At this point in the game I'm honestly not sure if you're shooting yourself in the foot by running four slowdowns even when you know what you're doing, I feel like you really would get more results from a better balanced build in all scenarios.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599866#Comment_3599866
I mean they did adjust the killers you listed, but I think most/if not all of them are still weak. Trapper is still a joke against good survivors, even with those improvements. DS changes were laughable and don’t matter, especially compared to how harshly he was nerfed. They are super cautious with killer improvements, yet have no problem giving survivors things like extra health states and chances for endurance. I don’t think it’s even arguable that most killers stand no chance against an efficient group.
It's super arguable, but that's not really my point so I won't get into that.
We've shifted the bounds of the argument immensely here. We've gone from "this list favours the survivor experience", to "these changes will harm the killers listed", to "these changes won't meaningfully help the killers listed". I can't really tell which of those you're most invested in, since they're pretty different, so I'm not even entirely sure what your position is here.
My position, though, is that the changes are probably going to be neutral at worst and that the list is pretty balanced in terms of which 'side' it 'favours'.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599819#Comment_3599819
For starters, the perk updates are almost guaranteed to be nerfs. Like there’s no way STBFL is going to be buffed. The FOV is a positive change, but literally everything else is going to hurt killer in some capacity. Based on their history, killer reworks usually result in that killer being weaker, which again reflects the devs listening to survivor feedback and not the killer experience.
While I agree that some of the perks listed are inevitably going to be nerfs, that's very much not true of all of them. There's no way on this green earth they'd possibly nerf Grim Embrace, for example, and Shadowborn + Monitor are getting new effects entirely (apparently, I'd have assumed Monitor would be fine without a new effect but that is what they said).
Also, based on their history, killer tweaks typically range from neutral to good, so that's kinda nothing. It's only based on their history if you look at like... Trickster and Deathslinger, right? But if you look at Ghostface, Legion, Trapper, Onryo, and Plague, it starts to look a whole lot better. Add in the killers that got smaller tweaks like Huntress and Deathslinger (more recently), which is probably what we're looking at for most on this list, and it starts to look a whole lot less like the killers in question are going to become weaker.
This is pretty biased. It's assuming that every change listed is going to be negative, and judging based on that.
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Only because it has the deactivation requirement.
If it never went away, it'd be on par with Bond. Better range + affects both parties, but needs to be set up before it functions, versus Bond that has inferior range and only affects you but is automatically active.
Personally I'd call that better than Bond, but it'd be personal preference.
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@woundcowboy said:
How is anyone who enjoys killer supposed to look at this and be excited for DBD’s future? I’m not even accusing the devs of being biased; this map 100% prioritizes the survivor experience?
What are you basing that on, may I ask? I see a lot of killer-focused things on this list.
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I've said it every time, and shamelessly, I shall say it again!
Taylor Hebert, AKA Skitter, from the web-novel Worm. It might be a stretch to consider Worm pure horror, but it's more than horrifying enough to warrant consideration, and Taylor's an excellent pick for killer.
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@DBD78 said:
Yeah let's ignore killers that really needs tweks and tweak killers that don't really need it? Why would Pig, Demo and Doctor need changes more than Knight, Pyramid head and Myers? We have been waiting for years for you guys to fix PHs addons and also Knight needing a brown addon to be playable..yes let's wait years to make that basekit 😐️
To be fair, what Myers and Pyramid Head need are kinda separate to what these killers are getting, right?
They're not doing addon overhauls, which is what Pyramid Head needs, and there's only so much space for full overhauls like Myers needs considering there's only, what, three of those on this list? And that's assuming that Hillbilly and Onryo all get the same complexity of changes that Twins are stated to be getting.
I get wanting those killers changed and I agree, but changes like these aren't all interchangeable. They can't take, say, Huntress off the list and replace her with Myers if what Huntress is getting is much much less than what Myers needs.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596849#Comment_3596849
You forgot Bubba and Doctor, both pretty good reworks
Unlike Skull Merchant's
Skull Merchant's current rework is more than fine. It may not be perfect, as pretty much all killers have elements that can be improved, but it's very far from a disaster or a failure as people try to paint it.
She has a power that works and that isn't causing tremendously unfun stalled matches, so I can't see how it could be a failure beyond personal dislike.
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They did a good job with both, they're just unpopular killer designs.
Edit: Also, the track record for killer tweaks extends beyond just those two reworks. You'd also look at Legion, Ghostface, Trickster, Trapper, and going back a little further also Plague, Spirit, and Deathslinger. So clearly, the track record is "mixed" if you're being as generous as possible to this stated conclusion, and "positive" if you're being reasonable.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595702#Comment_3595702
I am not talking about Circle of Healing. This got butchered completely.
But self-healing is not really viable anymore IMO. At least I notice that I lose more games when people self-heal. Which is fine, because self-healing was too strong before and altruistic Healing was never really an issue since it requires two people.
But when we look at ho easily it is to apply mangled with Sloppy Butcher... The Killer has to do basically nothing to get the Slowdown. And it is no surprise that basically every Killer who is doing basic Attacks is using Mangled and every Killer who has an Add On which applies Mangled when using the power is using this Add On.
And this is not because Mangled is fine, it is quite clear that Mangled is really strong. And Hemorrhage comes on top of it (at least with Sloppy Butcher).
You were talking about healing being nerfed, so presumably - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, sincerely - you're talking about patch 6.7.0, the patch that nerfed medkits and Circle of Healing. What I'm pointing out is that it only nerfed medkits and Circle (at least as far as healing goes), and both of those tools were made stronger at one kind of healing.
Self healing is totally viable but that's not really my point, so I won't get into that unless you'd like to.
Moving on to Sloppy Butcher and the Mangled status effect, let's actually look at healing tools in this scenario. All altruistic healing perks that were viable prior to patch 6.7.0 are still just as effective now, and that effectiveness is very high. Botany Knowledge alone completely undoes Mangled and helps a fair amount against Haemorrhage as long as you don't try to heal under the hook or out in the open, and something like We'll Make It will even allow you to counter Sloppy by healing under the hook if you're so inclined. That's just two readily available and freely accessible perks, let alone everything else. It's not even that you need those just to counter Sloppy Butcher, either- they're very strong perks in matches that don't have Sloppy, they're hardly wasted perk slots.
What Sloppy Butcher actually does is disincentivise self healing through it. You can still do it, especially with the right tools, but it's risky. Altruistic healing is the counter to Sloppy even basekit, and if you add in healing perks, countering it becomes trivial. Healing was not heavily nerfed. At worst it's broken even. You just have to remember that altruistic healing is something you should be doing, and the perks that affect it can be very strong.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595693#Comment_3595693
Healing is already nerfed heavily. They nerfed Medkits and Self-Healing not long ago, but did not change anything about Mangled.
Medkits and Circle of Healing are not the only kinds of healing in the game, and healing overall has not been nerfed heavily. One could even argue that healing overall has been buffed to a small degree, considering both of the two self-heal options that were nerfed became better at altruistic healing.
It would be fair to say that self-healing was nerfed pretty hard, but that's not even close to the same thing as saying that healing overall has been nerfed heavily.
Personally, I wouldn't say all healing perks need to be nerfed heavily if Mangled is nerfed (and it's worth remembering that is an 'if', it could be a rework more than just a nerf), but it is fair to bring up the possibility that the sources of healing speed in the game might become overtuned if the most common source of healing slowdown is nerfed noticeably.
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For Honor got an entire event, with a bunch of new cosmetics of the various types that the game offers. I fail to see how that's being done dirty.
That charm you listed was to commemorate and promote the event. It wasn't meant to be DBD's "half" because there was no "half" for this game to have. It was a For Honor event. It's like complaining that DBD puts all this effort into translating Resident Evil characters into their game, but RE doesn't even bother to do anything for "their half".
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595199#Comment_3595199
You do realize killer mains have brought the survivor meta down to Windows of Opportunity, which was classed as a D tier perk for the longest time. (Not to say there are other strong perks, but the Survivor meta now is nothing compared to what it used to be)
Don't act as if this is one sided, they make balance changes for both sides.
The survivor meta also includes Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, Resilience, and (formerly) Made For This. People run Windows because they like Windows, not because it's the strongest thing left. I know you acknowledged that, kinda, but it still completely undoes your point.
The same is true of the killer meta, for the record. Neither "mains" have won some kind of war to ruin all their opponents' good stuff, both because that war doesn't exist and because the current state of things has a very wide variety of good tools to bring.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595476#Comment_3595476
Yet none of those killers are viable at high MMR... Which is why you only see the same 3 killers. I get it, not everyone can be nurse, but Billy has his entire kit made up of mostly meme add-on. Nobody fears legion, he's just annoying. His power can't be used offensively like it used to. Freddy has so many hand holding counters for survivors nobody fears him.
That's all I'm saying here. I've been around a long time. I know how behavior does things for killer.
Pretty much every killer except kinda Trapper is viable at high MMR, but even if they weren't, how's that really relevant to what's being said here?
The claim is that past killer changes have been to dismantle and ruin the affected killer, citing Billy and Freddy as examples. When I point out that many more (and many more recent) changes have been to improve the affected killers, it doesn't really matter how effective those improvements were. They were still improvements and they still weren't the Freddy treatment.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595221#Comment_3595221
So you're saying please be reasonable and patient? 🙂
Reasonable more than patient. There's a degree of 'wait and see' because we don't actually know what they're doing with any of the things listed, but mostly it's just silly to start doomsaying about how killers have nothing left because of a handful of vague changes.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595103#Comment_3595103
This is NOT GOOD. We saw what you did to billy, Freddy and so on. I have a feeling you're going to nerf Blight charges and blow up his add-ons. You're also gonna blow up sadako and add a bunch of cool downs.
I'm only going off past changes to killer. I could be wrong. Stbfl nerfed, DS 5 seconds AGAIN, mangled nerf, sloppy nerf and so on. Basically a bunch of killer nerfs or changes that don't really buff killer.
To be fair, we've also seen what was done with Legion, Ghostface, Trickster, Plague, Trapper, etc.
There's been more good killer tweaks than there have been bad ones. Why just highlight Billy and Freddy, both kinda old examples at this point?
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Much as I personally don't believe STBFL or Sloppy actually need changes, this is hardly that dramatic.
We still have all the normal gameplay left. Y'know, regular chases, regular gen patrols, all that stuff. Even if STBFL and Sloppy are completely nuked into uselessness, we'd still have most of the potent chase perks that currently exist. We'd have stealth builds, we'd have slowdown builds, we'd even have some pretty okay hex builds.
The state of the game is not so dire that two perks, a status effect, and a blatantly unhealthy strategy being looked at means killers are left with nothing.
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Some concerning things on the list, but the devs have earned a little faith in recent years, so I'll wait to see how it shakes out before I comment too concretely.
Still, not super enthused by STBFL and Mangled/Sloppy being listed here. I'll wait and see, of course, but I really don't see those things needing changes.
But, by the same token, there's stuff on here that's way overdue like the Blight addon changes and the FOV slider, plus some stuff that's just kinda interesting and exciting like Clown and Doctor changes, so it's overall still a very positive looking roadmap.
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Very underrated.
It's easy to activate, and it provides both passive info to show you where people are while you're doing something else and active info that you can choose to capitalise on.
It's especially good on stealth killers, who can sneak up on survivors mid-repair, but pretty much anyone can use it effectively.
A fun pseudo-hidden benefit to the perk is that its aura reading doesn't require the survivor to stay on the generator, if they're revealed then they stay revealed even after leaving the generator to do something else. Not the most useful element, but a neat detail.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592835#Comment_3592835
Could you point out how survivor has changed a ton? What perks are now meta, that haven´t been meta 5 years ago?
Same for the killer meta, please.
Windows of Opportunity, Made for This, and Deja Vu.
I'd also argue perks like Resilience and Lithe saw enough of an increase in pickrate that it's worth mentioning, though those were always off-meta picks. I'm also pretty sure the same is true of Kindred, but I'm less confident about that one.
There's also the perks that were meta five years ago but now aren't, like Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, Unbreakable, and Iron Will. In fact, that specific set of four perks was the meta build for a long time and you only see any of them separately somewhat rarely these days, certainly not all four every match.
Survivor has also gone through a few different kinds of meta. For instance, the one prior to the one we have right now was an ultra-healing meta, with Circle of Healing and medkits stacked to make pressure with injuries impossible. That's meaningfully different to the current stay-injured meta, or the previous "second-chance" meta, much as I don't quite like that term.
Similar trends and examples can be drawn from the killer side, so I also disagree with the person you're responding to here, for the record.
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@Astel said:
Maybe because, you know, since it is new character, its counterplay is not found yet, so people are worrying about some people complaining that new killer is OP because they think there is no counterplay, and devs accept these kinds of feedbacks and nerf the new killer.
Just my thought.
That doesn't actually happen, though.
As OP says, the most recent killers haven't been nerfed for their release. In fact, most of them were buffed.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593365#Comment_3593365
what do you think is the best 4 perks for demogorgon?
Oh, no idea. I'm nowhere near a master Demogorgon player. I can just recognise perks that are perfectly fine on him, and more to the point, I found it interesting how the arguments for the perk being "bad" were supported wholly by reasons why it just wouldn't be optimal.
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@Evan_ said:
That argument sounds solid to me.
If you can get an STBFL-like effect from basekit with practice, then you're practically running three perks instead of four. Is it cool to run a perk purely for convenience to skip learning a killer's power? Sure, why not? Is it a gud thing to do? I doubt it.
Saying that a perk is bad rarely means that it actively hinders you. We usually only say it because there are better options.
It's a great argument for why STBFL is not the best on Demogorgon. It's not at all an argument for why it's bad.
It doesn't have to actively hinder you to be bad, but it does have to do very little. It's actually not enough for there to be better options - there are better tracking options than BBQ, that doesn't make it a bad perk. Same with STBFL on Demo; it'll do something, something noticeable, and something desirable. It's just not the best option.
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I've been running a few different chase builds, myself. Most recently I was going with Lethal Pursuer, Blood Favour, Gearhead, and Sloppy Butcher. It's a build with decent synergy between the perks and Skull Merchant's power; Lethal gets you into chases faster and extends the aura reading from Gearhead, your power causes health state losses so it activates Blood Favour and Gearhead, and your power gives you stealth so survivors being injured more/for longer is good for sneaking up on them.
It seemed pretty good to me, though I'm still personally feeling out the options!
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593088#Comment_3593088
But you still are missing the point. The usage hasn't changed. All we did was go from ruin undying to cob/overcharge/eruption to pain res/pop. Its all still functionally the same.
I addressed that. I think that at best what you're talking about is a wholly separate endeavour, not a necessary component of any meta shakeup. There are different metas - that feel different to play, that are differently healthy for the game - within the concept of players gravitating towards one type of perk.
What you're arguing for is a completely different goal than the goal of 6.1.0, which was to change the specific meta explicitly because people were sick of seeing the literal exact same perks constantly. The Ruin/Undying meta was meaningfully different to the CoB/Eruption/Overcharge meta, which was also meaningfully different to the Pain Res/Pop meta. They're all slowdown, but you can't say they're all literally the exact same in terms of experience quality and game health.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593079#Comment_3593079
Usage is a bad problem to solve is my point. And you also didn't address that FUNCTIONALITY of the meta was still the same and still remains the same since the games release. Until that is changed any "meta shakeup" they do is pointless because it results in everyone playing the same.
When people ask for a meta shakeup, they want something to fundamentally be different about the game.
It's a bad problem to solve until the usage is sustained for so long that people start complaining and asking for it to be solved.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592241#Comment_3592241
You don't fix the meta by randomly nerfing perks that aren't OP. Thats balancing based on usage not actual effectiveness. Does that mean they should also nerf wesker into the ground because people play him a lot? Its because he is fun.
On top of that, doing this won't ever actually fix the meta, because the meta is still the same, they just shifted around which perks you use. Killers still run 3-4 gen defense perks, and survivors still run 3-4 second chance perks. Like, look at the killer perk changes.
- Super old ruin (the skill check one) and pop were meta
- Then they nerfed ruin (to the regression one) and we just had pop for a while
- Then they added undying and it was ruin undying
- Then they nerfed undying But people still used ruin undying.
- Then they added pain res and it was pain res/DMS
- Then it was thana for a hot minute when it was buffed
- Then they nerfed pop and DMS and buffed eruption then it became CoB/Eruption/Overcharge
- Then they nerfed that and changed pain res again, giving us the current meta of pain res pop.
What changed there? Nothing, every single time the meta was exactly the same, you slow down the gens as much as possible with your perks.
Survivors have a similar progression from old DS to Dead hard to a few things in between all the way to MFT and when MFT gets nerfed when we will start to see the same meta play out with just different perks.
The problem here is the fundamental game mechanics. Nerfing or buffing random perks isn't going to change the meta while the core gameplay loop exists such that playing with no perks is not balanced. Both sides should be able to play completely perkless with equally skilled players and get a 50% win rate. But as it stands that is not the case because killers HAVE to take tons of gen perks to slow down the gens because basekit they just go too fast and regression is too terrible. In return survivors HAVE to take a ton of perks that give them second chances and make chases last as long as possible because with all that gen defense they can't basekit finish gens fast enough before a killer can hard tunnel someone out.
If you want a real meta shakeup, you need to change the base game, changing perks won't change anything.
Considering the problem was usage, yes, it is very much balancing around usage.
The problem they wanted to fix is that the meta consisted of the same perks for multiple years. The complaints they were acting on were about how this was stale.
The way you fix that is to nerf what is currently being used and buff things that aren't being used.
Wesker hasn't even existed for as long as the stale meta that people were complaining about, so he's not an example of something that would also require this drastic effort. When we reach four straight years of Wesker having a crazy high pickrate, maybe, but we're not there right now so he's not analogous to the situation 6.1.0 aimed to address.
There are two big problems with the way people talk about 6.1.0, in my experience.
First, we have what I've just gone over: People have very much forgotten why it happened and what it aimed to achieve, which leads to criticisms revolving around how the devs "arbitrarily" decided to nerf things just because they were popular, missing the wider context of the actual not-at-all arbitrary reason why they felt compelled to do that. 6.1.0 was not a normal balance patch and the reasons for its choices are not broadly applicable to the game's ongoing balance, it was a specific solution to a very specific problem.
Second, we have a bit of a hardline stance about what counts as changing the meta, which is where we're at with your last few sentences. People seem to think that a meta only counts as changed if the kind of perks people run radically change, which is a bit silly in my view. Killers are always going to run slowdown even when it isn't the best option (which frankly I'd argue is the case now) because it's just easier + more convenient than the alternatives, and survivors are always going to run primarily chase perks because conventional wisdom is that chasing is the only fun/skilful part of the game.
(There's a secondary fallacy in your post about how killers MUST run slowdown to stand a chance, which isn't true, but I don't want to derail too much. Same for the survivor side.)
To try and pin the success or failure of a meta shakeup on this seems like a doomed venture. It should be enough to look at the specific perks, and how they're used. So, let's do that: Did 6.1.0 change the specific perks used, and is there a clear distinction between how they were used before and how they're used now?
Yes. Moreso on the survivor side, where only a handful of perks are even literally the same and there's a distinction between the ultra-heal meta and the stay-injured meta, but even on the killer side there's a difference. That difference isn't entirely positive in all situations - the CoB/Overcharge/Eruption meta was pretty miserable, after all - but it is very easily noticed.
Personally, I'd go so far as to argue that the killer shakeup was still a success because far more perks and builds (and even killers themselves) are viable versus before, but it's fair to keep the bounds of conversation just to what people are actually choosing to use rather than what they could use.
You're right that people are always going to gravitate to slowdown and chase perks. You are wrong, in my opinion, to identify that as a problem or a necessary component to alter for a meta shakeup. The game is more nuanced than that, and not all examples of slowdown or chase perks are equal in experience or usage. Metas are more granular and specific than just 'slowdown' and 'chase'.
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@Annso_x said:
Ruin was one of the perks that was a "meta shake up" and was over-nerfed solely so the pick rates would drop so BHVR could pat themselves on the back because the meta changed
I'm pretty sure BHVR did that because people had been asking them to for years, personally.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592948#Comment_3592948
can she not replace a hacked drone? also how are you "looping" around a drone when you are zoned without giving her a hit?
She can, but she has to both notice that one's hacked and walk back over there to replace it. She can't be everywhere at once, if everyone's taking care of drones it'll outpace her ability to replace them.
As for how you loop around a drone, the same way you loop while under the effects of Clown's gas, in my experience. Predrop and force the killer to break. It mostly is a tactic for when you're already injured, though.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592742#Comment_3592742
she'll be putting drones in a larger area and not on top of gens themselves and you can't loop around drones. i guess what happens when you can't go deeper into the 3 gen.
You can absolutely loop around drones, and you can also disable them while she's occupied elsewhere too.
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If this is a pattern, you're gonna have six years of in-between to enjoy before it repeats, since that was the gap between the release of Dead Hard and the release of Made For This.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592521#Comment_3592521
And don't you think these people giving up on hook is not a symptom of a badly designed gameplay that should be changed?
As I've said twice in this thread, no, not necessarily.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592521#Comment_3592521
that doesn't change anything, ppl won't give up against killers that are not atrocious.
See the above comment saying they absolutely will, and also see my other comment where I elaborated on this point.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592521#Comment_3592521
That would be the case. Are survivors mass DCing / suciding when they come across Skull Merchant? I dont know really. If that is true, she suffers from the "Original Legion Syndrom". A killer that was so dispised that even tho the winrate was not super high, the devs simply had to completly change his power.
No matter if she is just really overpowered or so hated that survivors disconnect when they come across her, a change is absolutly neccessary, dont you think?
There's another thing missing from this rundown, though: Sometimes people just whine and complain for no reason and eventually it settles down.
Skull Merchant, I would argue, is in this position. While it's fine to personally not enjoy playing against her and I wouldn't want to imply otherwise, she's nowhere near as problematic as she used to be and a lot of players are just stalwartly refusing to engage with her power in any thoughtful or good-faith way. They're reacting to how she used to be, because her power still somewhat resembles the one she used to have and nothing short of redesigning her from the concept up would've been enough to shake the almost-irrational hatred many players had for the way she used to be.
Either way, since there's no clear observable problem like there used to be with the 3-gen issue, BHVR can't act straight away. They have to let her settle and give the complainers time to approach things with a level head in order to find out if there's actually a problem.
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@xEa said:
Dont worry to much. With her insane winrate, she will get nerfed pretty soon. Rightfully so.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3WMDNVZS1MUI/skull-merchant-winrate.jpg
Wouldn't that killrate be grossly inflated by the number of people who just give up on hook or DC the second they see her?
To the wider topic, I think this is an overexaggeration. It's fine to not like her, but she's clearly much better than she was before.
Her 3-genning has been brought down to the level any killer can achieve, drones have never been OP and certainly aren't now, and I don't even know what you mean by abusing the movement speed bonuses/penalties. That's just how her power works, it's like saying Clown abuses slows and haste.
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The web-novel Worm, by the author Wildbow.
I want Taylor as a killer so bad... I'd play the hell out of her regardless of strength or design, such is my love for the best and most chilling protagonist of all time.
Even more unlikely: Homestuck. You can get wacky with that one, beyond just translating one character directly. Give Trapper a trollsona. Give Hillbilly a Kanaya Maryam legendary skin. Go wild...
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If the goal is to make a good movie, and not be too concerned with adapting the wider lore of Dead By Daylight in general, I'd say adapting All-Kill would be the best bet.
Psychological thriller about Trickster's descent into serial-killing fervour, contrasted with Yun-Jin's slowly building suspicions and guilt over not wanting to rock the boat before she has any concrete proof, that kind of thing. I think it'd make for a good movie, though the ending would probably have to be changed if we don't want a bit of a cliffhanger. Imagine how that'd play to an audience who doesn't know what the Fog is, lol.
For adapting the wider mythos of DBD, I think the OG crew are kind of must-haves. That, or make a movie about the mysterious Lost Tapes characters referenced in the perk quotes...
Truthfully, I think the wider lore of DBD would work better as an anthology TV show rather than a movie. Gives more room for each facet to breathe.
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If you think MFT + Hope is bad, why would you want the same problematic concept being added to the game a second time?
Isn't it a good thing that they avoided repeating the mistake?
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I have never understood this argument.
If you believe that MFT being in the state it was for months is a problem, then the only logical thing you should want out of Batteries Included is for BHVR to avoid making that mistake twice. It is an incoherent position to say that one example of a problem should be allowed to stay in the game only because some other example of that same problem was, at a previous point in history, in the game for too long.
If you think MFT + Hope is a bad combo for the game's health, you must necessarily think that Batteries Included + NOED is a bad combo for the game's health, if your position is going to be coherent. I don't see any way you could possibly draw attention to the first combo being bad as a way of saying the second combo isn't bad, other than making some vague allusion to "killers vs survivors" or a backwards demand about "fair" treatment.
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It wasn't senseless, it made perfect sense and is very easy to understand.
6.1.0 was a patch aimed at addressing complaints about a stale meta. The only way to guarantee doing that is to make meta picks less appealing and to make not meta picks more appealing. If the end result of the change is that you still want to run it consistently, that patch would have failed.
I wouldn't mind seeing Ruin buffed up a bit to be more useful, especially now that we're over a year past the point where its prevalence (among others obviously) was causing complaints, but the actual nerf it got can't be too much for the goal of the patch. I'm not saying I want the perk to be useless, but it being useless isn't a mark of failure either.
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I'd rather play well and try to win, personally.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591710#Comment_3591710
why are you trying derail conversation on OP post? OP post is talking about Batteries included. Batteries included did not deserve any negative changes. the perk sucks because the perk is not consistent good chase perk. there is no reason for killer to patrol finished generators. The one place where perk could have some relevancy was end game because all gens become finished. The perk is not good in end game and it is not good during the game.
So when is the perk suppose to be useful? I genuinely do not understand the perk. the perk did not need nerf and it got nerf for no reason.
derailing his other two perks:
His friends till end perk is ok information but 20 second exposed too little. there is enough information perks in the game but there is barely any relevant exposed perks. here we get a potencial decent expose perk but it has such low numbers. why can't this perk have 45 second of exposed? Something in the meta that is not just 4 game delay perks or information perks.
Hex:two play is another rubbish perk. 1.5 second blinding? Like what the heck is the point? the blind lasts less time then pallet stun. with current numbers, the perk has to be worst hex perk in the game. I hope this perk gets like turbo buffed because this perk is almost more useless then like bottom tier perks like predator. I cannot imagine good version of this perk right now. that is how bad the perk is.
I didn't. The person I responded to did. I was just answering them.