jesterkind
jesterkind
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There are two things I think people overlook in these discussions, though I do agree to an extent with your argument here.
The first is that new players also have access to the base game teachables, if not as things they can use right away then as things that give them that information as to what perks exist and how they might be used. As much as I agree a generic hex would be good to make it clear what it is that Thrill of the Hunt does, it must be acknowledged that new players do have access to Huntress Lullaby. It's not a good perk, but when contrasted with Thrill, it does paint the picture you describe of making it clear that Thrill exists to protect other perks. Still, I do agree that the generic pool should be improved; it's just important to remember that's not everything new players have access to, so certain gaps may not actually exist.
The second is survivor specific, and is aimed at the self-healing element. That's a criticism I've seen before, that new players have no access to reliable and decently strong self healing, but it often neglects to consider that new players very much do have that in their bloodwebs: Medkits. Survivors not only have teachables revolving around self healing, they have the items that revolve around self healing, which very much is enough. I would say that the base pool of survivor perks is basically fine at the moment, but even if some were to be added, self heal is not something new players need more of. They have some options already, and they need to learn that self healing is a scarce resource to be used when necessary, not the way they should be healing every injury.
With those two elements in mind, I'd try to push for a slightly different tactic to resolve the issue than yours. Rather than adding new generic perks, I'd suggest reworking the more useless current generic perks, especially for killer, as well as retooling the base game teachables to better support newer players. That's the pool we're looking at, generic plus base game teachables, so improving what's already there should be more than enough.
In terms of new perks, I'd say survivors don't really need any (maybe a replacement for Kinship no longer being base game anti-camp?), and killers only really need a little. Something to better support Thrill, and something for chase, whether these are new perks entirely or just reworked existing ones.
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@020_AMS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614187#Comment_3614187
Because the developers say so. They literally said there are no win conditions
I don't suppose you've got a link to where they said that on hand? That sounds like a wild thing to say about this game in particular.
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@020_AMS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613953#Comment_3613953
people making it competitive doesn’t mean it isn’t a party game still. There are no win cons, lol.
Can I ask, why do you say that this game doesn't have a win condition?
It pretty clearly does, at least in the broad shape. It isn't ambiguous for survivor: your win condition is escaping. For killer it's a little more vague, in that the game itself doesn't make it particularly clear if a 3K counts or if it has to be a 4K, but the broad shape of the win condition is pretty clearly sacrificing survivors.
I genuinely don't understand how someone can come to the conclusion any game that isn't a pure sandbox doesn't have a win condition. Could you elaborate a bit?
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To be fair, it's not unfathomable to think that you might be able to beat the killer to the hatch. If it's spawning, that means the killer's been hooking the last survivor (or hitting them with a mori), giving you a chance to start running towards where you know the hatch is going to spawn. Plus, y'know, you can bring a key too.
They're not a guarantee by any metric, but they do have a use. There are much worse offerings for survivor- the shrouds in particular are completely backwards for both roles, for example.
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The wiki has a pretty useful resource for understanding the grading categories and how you gain/lose points in each, I'd recommend taking a look at that if it's been frustrating you.
Some of it can be a little odd, but it does make a degree of sense once you understand what the categories are and how they function.
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As a genuine question, because I fully and sincerely don't understand, why would a handful of BP bonuses for Devotion or Prestige count as meaningful appreciation for a player's time when the current rewards you already get don't?
There's already rewards for hitting the first few Prestige milestones, and there's already currency rewards for Devotion, so why are those not enough but just more BP would be?
Personally, I think the game rewards you just fine. I wouldn't be against a P100 reward specifically (as long as it's not too good- as much as people try and act like BHVR were talking about FOMO in that original answer, what they were actually talking about is pretty fair and reasonable), but I also don't think the game is severely lacking because of its absence either. It'd be nice, but it's not like it's an insult to not have these things in the game.
The reward for you playtime is and should be that you enjoyed your time, first and foremost. Anything else is just a bonus.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613661#Comment_3613661
I think it is a consequence, actually. I definitely agree with the importance of varied builds, but I understand why many players aren't doing it. The way I see it, it is just a natural response.
As for the current state of the game... well, I will make it clear that I am biased. I have disagreed with 99% of every change implemented into this game since mid-2019. However, I really cannot see anything positive with no one healing, stacked slowdown and the endless camping and tunnel that I'm seeing.
It's definitely not a consequence. People have run 3-4 slowdowns for at least as long as I've been playing the game, and with the exception of post-6.1 Eruption and the nasty Call of Brine/Overcharge 3-gen meta, it's always been weaker than having an actually varied build.
While I think it's fair to say nobody healing and stacked slowdown isn't the most fun setup, it's not happening (where it even is happening, btw, I've not personally seen much of this supposed never-heal meta in my games) because of the changes made to the game recently, or even close to recently. Remember, right now, healing perks are very strong and stacking slowdown is an active detriment in a lot of cases. Even if those things weren't the case before (which they were), it's pretty clear these things aren't happening because something was changed.
These things don't happen because of supposedly bad changes made to the game. They happen largely because people refuse to adjust their setup or strategy even when it becomes heavily apparent it's not working. People run 3-4 slowdowns because they think it'll be easier, then complain about gen speeds when they lose games because of it. People don't heal because they refuse to acknowledge the strength of altruistic healing and associated perks, then blame it on the two self-healing tools that were nerfed.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613533#Comment_3613533
I think it is hard to say killers shouldn't bring 3-4 slowdown perks with the current state of things. I mean, I don't do it, but I understand why some people do.
It is all connected. The moment you cannot expect survivors to do anything other than gens, then you cannot expect killers to bring anything other than slowdown. Several aspects of the game suffered tremendously with unnecessary changes, which happens way too often, and it is impacting both sides.
This must be fixed.
The "current state of things" is exacerbated by bringing 3-4 slowdown perks at best, it is not helped or diminished. At worst, bringing 3-4 slowdown perks creates the "current state of things", as you and others have put it.
People think that generators fly and it's completely outside their control, therefore they must need to stack the tools that make generators go slower, but that's just not true. There are diminishing returns on your slowdown perks, for one- they all require actually progressing your objective before they do much and if you don't have anything to make that progression easier, you aren't going to be helped by your slowdown perks because they aren't even being activated that frequently.
It would be better - and with a few narrow exceptions for strips of time where certain perks were wildly overtuned, has always been better - to bring a balanced build that helps you in any areas you might be struggling with, or just to give you varied value to begin with. Info and chase perks are nigh essential, they are not strictly weaker than slowdown and using them alongside specific slowdown perks that actually synergise well is the right call if you feel that generators are being completed too quickly.
The actual current state of the game really isn't that bad once you understand this. A few things could use some changes, but the objective speeds are pretty okay as long as you understand how you get slowdown as killer without relying on four disconnected perks that don't even work that way.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613522#Comment_3613522
so you couldn't even say killers have no good slowdown left anyway.
I just said, that the extra gen time was nullified by the slowdown nerf.
Killers still take 3-4 slowdown perks, because they struggle with gen times. Because one bad chase can mean the end of the match. There used to be more room for mistakes for both sides. Now it looks like its competitive for everyone and people complain about "sweaty killers/survivors" when someone just plays normal.
As of lately, i´ve seen way to many matches that didn´t last 5 minutes and/or where the killers simply gave up after 1 hook at 2 gens left.
When killers camp/tunnel. Everyone goes on how the killer is toxic and how that isn´t fun for survivors. But what about killers fun? It really isn´t motivating to see gens fly, while you barely get hooks.
Yes, but you're wrong. There wasn't an across-the-board slowdown nerf, so the gen time can't have been nullified even if we assume that you'd need slowdown perks to benefit from the increased gen time to begin with, which you do not. I only bring up some of the nerfed slowdown perks being still good to support that point, I apologise if I accidentally implied you said that part. My bad on that front.
As to the rest of your statement, those killers should try not bringing 3-4 slowdown perks. I'd imagine they'd start doing a little better if they stop shooting themselves in the foot like that.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613507#Comment_3613507
Thats not what i said.
But the 10 seconds of extra gen time got nullified, when Ruin switched from 200% to 100%, PoP was reduced from 25% general progression to 20% current progression, Corrupt deactivated on the first down, etc.
Gen regression was much stronger before they nerfed gen times.
It is what you said, you said they nerfed all slowdown across the board. That's not true, they didn't do that, and even some of the ones that did get nerfed are still useful.
Sure, gen regression was stronger before they nerfed gen times. I don't know that I'd necessarily agree with that, but it's kind of a moot point- you don't need gen regression to benefit from the increased gen times, and it's not what was said initially anyway.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613073#Comment_3613073
Wanna know what they also nerfed along gen repair time? All slowdown perks across the board.
Which completely nullified the benefit of the slower gens.
Saying they nerfed all slowdown perks "across the board" is an exaggeration that makes your statement flat out wrong. That hasn't happened, for one, and even most of the nerfed slowdown perks are still perfectly good so you couldn't even say killers have no good slowdown left anyway.
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I'm fine with it.
If survivors choose not to heal, I can leverage that as killer. If they do choose to heal, they're probably taking more than the eight seconds it used to take for one survivor to heal themselves, so that's fine too.
I'll say that I do have an issue with people acting as though they're being forced to stay injured because "healing is so useless now", as people love doing with no basis in reality, but that's a separate discussion to the outcome of that decision.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612354#Comment_3612354
Remember Me needs 30 seconds again.
WGLF and BBQ for bloodpoint gains.
And I am actually thinking about the BT that protected both survivors, but can only be used once per trial.
Fair enough, I forgot about original BT. I think that'd still be overall worse than the version we have since that version can be used on every unhook and has a secondary effect now, but I did forget about it.
WGLF would just be flat weaker, if you revert it. If you just add the BP gain back, that'd be a buff, but it wouldn't be a reversion either. Same for Remember Me, if you just give it back those extra few seconds but take away the special attack buff, that's overall weaker, and if you keep the special attack buff it's not a reversion.
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@GeneralV said:
It doesn’t have to be completely reverted
Hell yes it does! Those are the good stuff, my friend.
Here we go:
-Ruin
-BBQ
-Thrill of the Hunt
-WGLF
-Remember Me
-Decisive Strike
-Self-Care
-Spine Chill
-Balanced Landing
-Iron Will
-Borrowed Time (I swear no one uses it anymore)
And if I've forgotten anything, someone please remind me later.
P.S: I wrote this while listening to Holding Out for a Hero and this felt epic.
Wouldn't some of these be nerfs?
WGLF, Remember Me, and Borrowed Time were all buffed iirc. I'm a little less confident on Remember Me, I know it was buffed semi recently but I don't remember if it had a prior version to that which was stronger in some way. WGLF had its BP removed but gained an additional effect, so reverting that is nerfing it, and BT is only not used because it became basekit- the actual effect of the perk was buffed comparative to the way it was before.
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Good change, in my opinion. Gives totally new players a better head start on unlocking stuff if they choose to spend money, and the reduction of iridescent shard prices also lets players who don't spend money gain new characters faster as well.
All in all a W with no real downsides that I can think of.
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No, I don't think so.
Given the way this game works on a fundamental level, it does kinda make sense that the first generator or so will pop quite quickly. As killer, you can only occupy one survivor at once as the game starts, so the other three are all free to progress their objective until they're forced away by direct pressure (via the killer chasing them) or indirect pressure (the need to go for a save, deal with a killer power, or maybe cleanse a hex).
Once you get that down, though, your pressure starts mounting. You occupy one survivor by hooking them, a second by getting into a chase with them ASAP, and a third by forcing them to come away for the save. If you can keep that ball rolling with smart chasing and additional pressure from powers and perks, the remaining generators should pop much faster.
In the current state of the game, resorting to tunnelling someone out immediately and running multiple slowdown perks can shoot you in the foot more than help you. If you don't get those downs quickly, neither of those things will help you, because you're letting the other three survivors do generators unopposed. Instead of just slowdown, consider chase and info perks, to grease the wheels a little more easily.
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Skill checks exist both to provide a little mechanical challenge before they're mastered (a minor learning curve that can be satisfying to overcome, especially if you're going for Great results rather than Good which is much harder, I can't consistently do that myself), and to add a little extra tension to being static and - ostensibly - vulnerable.
You need to look out for the killer, but you also have to look away from your surroundings to hit the skillcheck. It's not much, but it does add a little bit to the atmosphere.
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I couldn't agree more, there are hardcore diminishing returns with three or four gen defence perks stacked in the same build. If you're doing well enough to get value out of all that, you don't need them, and if you aren't you'd be better served with a more balanced build.
If you want to prioritise gen defence, you'd still want at least one perk for info and at least one perk for chase, but ideally you'd be crafting a build that works with itself in terms of synergy. Bring, say, Pop if you want, but maybe consider other gen kick perks to pair with it like Nowhere to Hide or even something like Trail of Torment if you want to get fancy. Hell, I've gotten a ton of value out of running Furtive Chase/Nemesis/BBQ/Lethal on the right killers, and there's no slowdown in that build at all.
Info perks are nigh essential, no matter what. All the gen regression in the world won't help you if you're stumbling around blindly and taking too long in chase, we're fully out of the meta where you can stall the game without getting downs at this point. Four gen defence perks is a handicap at worst, redundant at best.
The current state of potential perk variety is really healthy at the moment. It just requires people to choose to use the plethora of good options available to them, and a lot of players just aren't doing that.
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As far as I know it speeds up self-healing, yes.
Though, to the second question, I'd personally use Empathy as the supporting perk instead of stacking more heal speed. Knowing where to go to heal teammates can be more important than getting a little extra heal speed increases, imo.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Scavenger.
Even though it got nerfed from PTB, it's still good. You just have to be smart with it and don't trigger the 5th skillcheck at a time that is disadvantageous for you. Get the first 4, then wait to hit the 5th one until you have something else to do like healing or unhooking someone, or alternatively, be like me and run it with a boon build and you can go do a totem while waiting out the penalty so you're still being efficient with your time. (The full build is Scavenger/Circle of Healing/Shadow Step/Detective's Hunch)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3610351#Comment_3610351
Gearhead is super underrated. I really like using it on Wraith personally.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609857#Comment_3609857
I've been running this ever since Empathic Connection released - it's one of my favorite combos to use. Autodidact by nature doesn't work every game but when it does it feels SO good and it helps counter Sloppy too.
You should consider swapping out one of those boons for Overzealous, it brings the whole thing together really nicely. The time spent setting up your chosen boon also gives you more generator repair, on top of the toolbox you brought in.
That's my answer to the OP's question, at least. Overzealous, paired with a boon and Detective's Hunch. Really nice build.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608414#Comment_3608414
"This isn't a very fun playstyle for survivors as you end up spending a lot of time on the ground not able to do anything" This isn't about killers not liking how the twins play its about survivors not liking how the twins play and they flat out stated it in their answer + twins have been plagued with horrible bugs since release and BHVR completely has ignored pretty much all of them, only nerfing Twins over and over and over.
But why are you and OP pretending that the question was about why they decided to change the Twins? The question was specifically about the slugging element of the Twins changes, it's not about the killer update as a whole. Sure, survivors like slugging less, but that doesn't actually mean anything about the Twins update as a whole and it's worth pointing out that killers also don't like how slug-heavy the Twins are.
Plus, again, I have to point it out a second time, they've been working on this update for over a year. We know they've been looking at Twins for quite a long time at this point, they haven't been ignoring anything.
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...Eh?
Isn't it pretty commonly stated that people don't like playing Twins because they don't like feeling forced into slugging as often as they kinda have to in order to utilise that kit properly? Wouldn't BHVR pretty obviously also be replacing that need to slug with other options, thus improving the killer experience substantially?
Also, what're you on about by saying they "don't care" about Twins being bugged, too? This question wasn't about that, and we already know they've been working on the Twins update for over a year now. Every killer update so far has had bug fixes in it too, if I remember correctly, and there's no way on this earth the most bugged killer in the game won't have at least some of those bugs addressed in their update.
This is a giant reach, you're taking a question very specifically about just the slugging aspect of the Twins update and you're trying to make it sound like slugging is the only thing being addressed and the only reason for the update.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608362#Comment_3608362
It is okay, my friend. Thank you so much for trying, I sincerely appreciate it :)
Who knows, maybe we will get an answer or that eventually.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608358#Comment_3608358
On what could be answered. Wait until they're close to releasing a new patch, when they are already working on stuff. That way, it increases the chances of the community receiving the answers they want to, because the developers will have actual information to share.
As for what else can they ask, that's pretty trivially easy to answer. Design philosophy, inspirations, lore content, behind the scenes insights, and so on-- and if you don't want to ask those things because you don't really care about them, that's fine, sincerely. But, at the same time, if you ask the stock questions then you're going to get back stock answers in the vein of "we want to but no details to share" and "no plans currently but never say never".
Look, I'm impartial to what is being asked and answered there. As you can see above, Mooks kindly asked the question I had for them and, sadly, it was not picked.
I'm just curious as to what you expect the community to ask about, because the priority on gameplay won't change. That is what most players care about.
I suppose I should clarify; if the only thing happening here were that stock questions were being met with stock answers, somewhere in a vacuum, I'd mostly grumble about it privately but accept that most players have different priorities to me.
Because that's fair! I think it's fair for most players to want to ask about gameplay elements and potential changes, even if I think it's a waste of the AMA format.
What I don't think is fair is the community then turning around and getting mad about it. This is how it works, if you ask about potential or upcoming changes, you're probably not getting an answer. You're rolling the dice on whether what you're asking about is something the devs are actually working on (even close to a new patch, they can't be working on everything at once), and even if that comes up positive you're still probably not getting much because no dev company is going to spill everything about an upcoming change in an AMA rather than an announcement post.
Truthfully, I don't really expect much of the community in this regard. Most games communities are fickle, hostile, angry places that can't meaningfully be pleased, and DBD is no different. This community is one I'm part of and post in, though, so I feel some obligation to point out when the popular opinion/reaction is unfair or unfounded, as it is here. So, that's being wrapped up in my more personal gripe about not getting interesting answers because very few interesting questions are being asked/chosen.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608346#Comment_3608346
But what else would they ask about?
I mean, the community has priorities. People want to know if things are going to change or if they were considered, because this affects their gameplay. Naturally, if there is an opportunity to talk to the developers directly, those topics will take priority over everything else.
The correct thing would be to wait and do those AMAs when they are ready to give actual answers, because otherwise there isn't a point to them.
Well, let's actually look at that last statement for a moment- wait and do the AMAs when they are ready to give actual answers... on what?
There's some stuff they can probably bank on being asked, sure, but the stock questions they get about "will you do this" and "when is that being changed" do tend to actually be different between AMAs. They're consistently non-questions like that, but they aren't always about the same thing.
As for what else can they ask, that's pretty trivially easy to answer. Design philosophy, inspirations, lore content, behind the scenes insights, and so on-- and if you don't want to ask those things because you don't really care about them, that's fine, sincerely. But, at the same time, if you ask the stock questions then you're going to get back stock answers in the vein of "we want to but no details to share" and "no plans currently but never say never".
It's not actually about BHVR, though I do think they could do a better job picking questions with actual answers. All game dev companies would be in the same position if this were the kind of question they consistently got; either they have something to share, or they don't, it's a binary completely out of their control. They can't retroactively have work to share, and predicting what people are going to ask about kind of invalidates the point of an AMA to begin with, they might as well just announce that stuff in some kind of community post instead. If the AMAs are just supposed to be a vehicle for announcements about content or changes, don't bother with the questions portion, it's meaningless.
To a degree, I sympathise with this being all a lot of players care about, but it is annoying to see the constant cycle of the community asking these kinds of questions and getting angry about the obvious, predictable answers, only to then go on and ask the same kinds of questions next time.
Plus, speaking as someone who does actually care about the kinds of questions that could be answered, it's doubly annoying on that front too. I like seeing the actual answers when they're given, I do care about that kind of thing.
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It's disappointing how many of these questions are just really ill suited to an AMA format. How many of these are just, "when will you add/change [X]", or "would you consider [Y]"? These are questions that are pretty obviously going to get predictable stock answers.
I'm not sure who is to blame here, between the players who chose to ask these questions and the devs who chose to answer them, but I strongly suspect the answer might be a combination of both. We as a community should really try and ask things that can actually be definitively answered, and BHVR should probably try and avoid the questions that can't.
Still, there is some good stuff in here, so it's not a total wash. Thanks to OP for the compilation for easy reading, too!
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No.
You want players who use cheap tactics to rise in MMR, so that they'll go against players who know how to deal with it. If you keep them in lower ranks, that just means the players who don't know how to deal with it have to deal with it even more than before, overall.
Also, slugging is fine? It's not a problem in the same vein as tunnelling.
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No.
You want players who use cheap tactics to rise in MMR, so that they'll go against players who know how to deal with it. If you keep them in lower ranks, that just means the players who don't know how to deal with it have to deal with it even more than before, overall.
Also, slugging is fine? It's not a problem in the same vein as tunnelling.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607316#Comment_3607316
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607339#Comment_3607339
Where does it explicitly say the shard price will be 50%
Because I'm not seeing it. Maybe the auric cell price will be but I'm skeptical if it's not mentioned explicitly.
Says it here:
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://twitter.com/DeadbyDaylight/status/1734604352193433883
After January 8, original chapters will be selling only in bundles.
Now this is good option for people who wanna buy multiple chapters because it will be cheaper for them. But what about people who wanna get only single chapter? Why i am forcing to buy 4 chapters together when i only want to buy Chains of Hate?
You will no longer have chance to buy single chapter. You will buy pack or you will buy character in game. Licensed chapters are not included.
That's terrible decision.
Considering that the characters in question are half the price after this change, doesn't that still work out well for you?
That isn't being forced to pay more for extra content you don't want, that's effectively getting those chapters for free, you just need to grind for the shards- and considering you only need to grind half as long for each piece, that's still an upgrade compared to now.
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This is a good change, I think. Losing the ability to buy individual DLCs is a bit of a shame, but the shard-price reduction more than makes up for it.
I'm all for this!
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I wouldn't be surprised. Before, the people who played her almost exclusively just wanted to grief with 3-gens, and there really aren't that many players who enjoy that on a regular basis.
Now, more people feel comfortable approaching her as a killer to play normally, since she's not a problem anymore.
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@awustzdn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606642#Comment_3606642
Nobody CARES about the fluff stuff, the game's got issues that have persisted all 7 years it's been around and people want answers. It's not really an AMA if none of the questions have real answers. If they only want fluff questions then they should say so themselves.
I've never understood why people say this as though it's a contradiction or answer to my pointing out how these things work. What do you expect to change here?
If they don't have an answer, if they don't already have something to share when you ask, you get a stock answer. BHVR do not have the power to change this, no game company does.
Second to that, if you don't actually care about the stuff that gets answers, maybe these AMAs just aren't for you?
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@awustzdn said:
There's zero point to those AMAs, the answers are always "We can't say anything about that at this time."
That's the answer if the question is "when will you change this" or "when will you add that". If people ask questions about other things, assuming those questions are chosen, they get proper answers.
There's plenty to ask, people just choose not to and get mad at the obvious answers for some reason.
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I hope this time people properly understand what they're asking. If you ask about "when are you going to fix [x]/add [y] feature", then you're pretty obviously quite likely to get back a stock answer, that's just common sense. Hopefully, this time people either ask something else if they don't want stock answers, or accept the possibility of stock answers if they really want to ask those questions.
Foolish hope, but I can dream, right?
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It's for bug testing and balance feedback, as well as a small amount of hyping people up for the new content.
That's really all I'd expect from a game's PTB servers, honestly, I don't quite understand what some folks expect a PTB to be for if it's not that.
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They don't. They do buff those mediocre or trash tier perks, they just do it slower than you'd like.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3605274#Comment_3605274
How is it trivial to get more stuff...mind you Deja Vu is only really good with actual experienced players same with hope, resilience is okay but again only good with experienced players, and We'll Make It again not good with new players since most new killers tend to camp and most new survivors don't go for heals straight after an unhook (trust I've been playing with new players almost exclusively since switching to PC).
Beyond that I don't see how you don't have a problem with 9 perks being removed from the base pool, 7 of which are actually pretty good, and the other 2 being okay, but most of all they're pretty simplistic perks which actually help newcomers far more than most of the general perk pool.
"But the teachables survivors have!!!!" are locked behind a survivor...like they can pick Meg or Claudette and if they don't then they're just left with some of the worst perks in the game besides Prove Thyself and Dead Hard one of which is only good with experienced players again. So what do survivors REALLY have? Mind you I actually am playing as someone technically who would've just bought the game and there's really nothing for either side to have fun and experiment with when it comes to base game. 609 hours on PC and I have maybe like a handful of good perks on killer side and little to nothing on survivor side because survivors just have no good perks generally and it gets worse with general perks being as trash as they are so I tend to stay far away from PC survivor unless my sister is playing on PC too
It's trivial to get more stuff because you get it by playing. Bloodpoint gains are pretty good right now, and the prestige system overall makes getting perks shared between characters pretty easy. It can be fairly time consuming if you want to get everything unlocked, even if it's only everything you have access to with a base version of the game, but if something specific catches your eye then it really isn't that big of a deal to get it unlocked on the character you play.
As I said elsewhere, I do think it's a shame that perks were lost from the general pool. That's a different argument to the one I'm responding to here, though; it can be both a shame, and not exactly a crippling blow to new players.
So let's look at the characters you have access to with a base copy of the game, and see how many of them have perks that'll help newer players. We'll be assuming PC because I always forget which specific ones are available on consoles, so that means we have: Dwight, Meg, Claudette, Jake, David, Bill.
Dwight: Bond is an invaluable resource for everyone, and new players are no exception. Combined with the good general perks (including the ones you tried to dismiss, they're still useful for new players), and maybe including Prove Thyself and Leader just for incremental bonuses, that's an okay first pick.
Meg: Adrenaline is useful for everyone, Quick & Quiet is at least fun to try and use as a new player, and Sprint Burst is the strongest perk in the game. Maybe not the best for entirely new players as a first pick, but perfectly serviceable.
Claudette: While Self Care is a bit of a trap, Botany Knowledge and Empathy are both very strong perks especially for newer players, providing strong information and an incentive to try and use it, which will build good habits in the long run. Excellent first perk for new players.
Jake: Iron Will is a great stealth perk and new players tend to be a bit more skittish around the killer. Similarly, Calm Spirit is imo more likely to help newer players since they're less likely to be as deeply affected by the penalty. Saboteur may not be great for new players, but at least they have access to it if they wanna learn how to sabotage right.
David: Weakest overall, for sure. Dead Hard is okay but not for newer players really, We're Gonna Live Forever is... fine, and No Mither is not to be touched as a new player. Sure, his perks are weak in this specific situation, but that's one survivor.
Bill: Left Behind is good for newer players, Unbreakable can help deal with your teammates being a little too green and skittish to come help if you're slugged, and Borrowed Time provides nice incentive to go unhook more proactively. Perfectly good first pick.
So what we have here is a pool of general perks that's perfectly good and even quite strong in spots, combined with a pool of starting characters that almost all have strong and useful perks to help onboard new players and push them towards good habits like saving, unhooking, and extending chases. I don't see how new players are "basically doomed" because they lost some other good and useful perks.
Remember, new players don't have the biases and accepted rhetoric that get bandied about a lot by more experienced players. To the people on this forum, for example, over half the survivor perks are trash and only 20 or so are worth using-- but even if we were to do that argument the herculean benefit of assuming it isn't complete nonsense, that's largely only true because everyone involved is playing at a higher level. Considering most perks actually are quite useful even for us, new players clearly have a lot of available options when they're starting out.
I suppose I should acknowledge that I'm doing this hypothetical new player the service of assuming that they're thinking about what they're doing and that they want to try and learn how the game works, but I think that's a fair assumption. Give someone who doesn't know the game but is interested in learning the general pool of survivor perks paired with accessible teachables, I think they'll do fine, broadly. The game will hamper them with a poor tutorial and opaque mechanical systems, but in terms of giving them tools early, that part's pretty okay.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
Everyone here is being absolutely delusional for thinking beginners have any good perks outside of the ST perks lol. "Why would beginners struggle without good perks like Surge, Inner Strength, and renewal when they have perks like spine chill, premonition, and this is not happening!"
Like do you guys not remember when we were new and there was little to nothing for survivors to use? Because I'll tell you I recently switched to PC and its been hell, I don't even want to play survivor because I can't really play my mains (Maria, Ada, Yun-Jin, and Kate) Because amongst them theres no real good perks besides Kate's and thats a huge problem. I would have to buy at least like 5-6 survivors and level them all up to P1 just to get a perk I want or that is reletively good, and thats a problem they don't want to admit :/
BHVR NEEDS to add more general perks for killers AND survivors because as is the general perks for both beyond like 2 exceptions (resilience and NOED) are just trash all around
There's a combination of two things happening here.
The first is that there are better general-pool perks than you're giving credit for, on both sides and especially for beginners. Survivors have Deja Vu, Hope, Kindred, Resilience, and We'll Make It, all of which are good and strong perks for everyone and definitely serviceable for beginners. Killers have Bitter Murmur, NOED, Iron Grasp, Sloppy Butcher, Spies from the Shadows, and Whispers, most of which are more beginner perks than useful ones for everyone else but are still perfectly serviceable.
The second is that people are responding to what new players ACTUALLY have access to, not just the general pool. Remember that the survivor side, for new players, also has access to Bond, Botany Knowledge, Empathy, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Iron Will, and a handful of other very strong perks. Sure, they'll have to pick one survivor to start with, but there's a high chance their starting survivor has good stuff and it's pretty trivial to level up two characters at once to get more stuff. Killers have a little less, I'll grant you, but there's still some interesting stuff and the power + interest in that role tends to come from powers more than perks anyway.
The beginner pool of available perks is mostly fine. I'm not against expanding it and I think this game has other issues with onboarding, but the available perks are not in a dire spot just because it doesn't contain the ST perks anymore.
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@dknb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604709#Comment_3604709
FOV slider changes the balance.
It's not QOL.
A lot of QoL changes will affect the balance in some way, directly or indirectly. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Hmm...
I don't hate that as an idea for Blight, actually. Just putting his tokens on cooldown at the start of the match would only ensure he has to go walk at totally normal speed to start his first chase, it won't super harm his strength overall but it will give survivors back the breathing room almost every other killer offers them.
For Nurse, though, despite her having crazy mobility, she moves slower than survivors by default. I don't know that taking away her mobility at the start of the match is as fair, because it's basically just saying she arbitrarily doesn't get to start the match for however many seconds. It might feel too bad on her to be a fair nerf.
For Xeno, I think the fact that it has to walk to a station, then spend a few seconds walking through the tunnels, is enough of a delay. That's roughly equivalent to some other killers having Lethal and just walking to their first target.
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We have had faster hooking in the past, most recently with the last Halloween event, and it was... fine.
I kinda agree with the sentiment that we don't have it because it's largely useless, but at the same time, I would like to see it added to Fire Up just because that perk already affects a few things no other perk does and it'd be nice to see it become even more unique even if it doesn't quite get stronger.
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It does make total sense when you remember what the patch was for and why Ruin was nerfed as an extension of that, but it was definitely pretty harsh.
Though again, if you want to run it every game after the nerf, it'd have been a failure of a change. Something to remember even if we look towards buffing it again now, imo.
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No players need gen regression perks, but new players 'need' them the least. They aren't at the point where survivors are taking long enough in chase or sticking to generators enough for regression to even do that much for them, at least when it comes to genuine newbies vs newbies games.
Also, a lot of the base perks are perfectly useful for beginners, including the base teachables. They've got tracking perks galore, a few utility perks, a few chase perks... basically all they don't have is regression, which isn't that big of a deal for new players.
In fact, I'd argue learning to play without regression is probably better for new players. They might learn how to actually get work done with good play instead of relying on perks.
Still, it does suck to lose a few utility perks, especially on the survivor side. Those perks were useful, especially for newer players, and losing them is a bit of a shame. Not "basically doomed" by a huge margin, but it is a shame.
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...How is that FOMO?
There's no timer. You don't miss out if you don't get it immediately, it's there whenever. I feel like some folks have started thinking any marketing ploy is FOMO, which isn't the case, that's a very specific thing done for a specific purpose.
Not to defend the current implementation of player cards, mind you, it's pretty lame. It's just not FOMO.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603360#Comment_3603360
Playing the killer in general, in my experience, leads to everybody going next at the sight of her, or giving one chase and going next.
Generally, yes, the SM’s I get 3-gen with full slowdown, and are usually pretty toxic.
No specific complaint, I just despise the killer. She’s brainless gameplay.
Ah.
Then it's because people like her and your preferences are not objective. Disliking 3-gen gameplay is fair enough, but not every specific killer has to be for you.
I have to say though, I play her and I don't see that many people DC anymore. Most people seem to have caught up to how she's not a problem anymore.
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Legit question: Are you talking about playing the killer in general, or are people still doing 3-gen stuff with her? What's the complaint here?
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I can't say what they're going to do, but I can definitely say what I want them to do.
Basekit Discipline addon for Doctor to improve the shock detonation delay, and partial basekit Smelly Inner Soles for Clown so he doesn't slow down to such an obscene degree while reloading. If those things happen, I'm totally happy.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602936#Comment_3602936
None of the changes you listed were good. SM and Legion are just trying to come back from overall poor base designs.
Trapper’s “update is a joke.” After all this time, literal years, he get’s a speed boost after setting traps. He is still trash tier.
Pretty clear we have different opinions on what are good changes. Perhaps keep that in mind before you say I have “paranoia.”
It's pretty clear we do, considering even the changes you mention are talked about as good changes. I don't really know what your definition is, if "changes that positively affect problems that used to exist and now don't" doesn't count, and "improvement but not perfection" doesn't count either.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602712#Comment_3602712
New here I see.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602854#Comment_3602854
The concern they will be made weaker is well known and justified. Why is the Huntress being tweaked? I have yet to see a single good reason from a player perspective.
Given BHVR’s recent track record, I don’t think it is too much to ask for some reassurance. There has been none. Silence usually means the answer they don’t think you want to hear. If I was a Huntress main, I would be quite nervous.
I had reason to say this elsewhere too, but it bears repeating: BHVR's recent track record is good, not bad. The recent track record would be... I think the earliest back you'd go for recent would be the Ghostface and Legion changes, so you'd add in Trapper, Sadako, and Skull Merchant for an actual update and Huntress/Trickster/Deatshlinger for "tweaks" as they say in the roadmap. Then after that you get Trickster's current update, which is the first actual example of a negative change in recent memory.
Now, how much those other changes actually helped may be up for debate, but neutral changes are not the same as negative ones.
So, is it too much to ask for some reassurance? Yeah, actually. BHVR should not act like they are under inherent suspicion of terrible changes, especially not when their recent track record has actually been perfectly decent recently.
This "silence means the answer they think you don't want to hear" thing is just paranoia, and it's pretty baseless. That's not how communication from a video game developer works. ""Silence"" just means they don't consider it priority information to share with the playerbase, for whatever reason. It's not even really silence since there's no expectation for them to speak, it's just the absence of extra information.
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D'you think perhaps the fact that you're getting prematurely mad at the possibility these changes might be nerfs could be the reason they're a little vague about these things?
Besides, I'd imagine there could be a few killers getting both buffs and nerfs, making "tweaks" the simplest way to refer to them. There's no need to get mad or threaten player loss either way, though, we can just wait and see while speculating about what it could be.