jesterkind
jesterkind
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@daffyd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615886#Comment_3615886
A lot of words that have already been covered in that the feature at it's core is a bonus that can be optionally used... how on earth is that a bad thing?
Your opinion on how it is used is similar to skill on how it is used, some will tell you about the killer some will not.
I do love the people who are offered a free product that benefits them and then say what if it makes me fat... well don't eat it but this product is healthy
Oh hey, I never saw this. Well, might as well respond since the post's on the front page again--
I think the major misunderstanding is that you're still thinking of voice comms as a personal matter. It's up to your skill and preference how well you can use it, right? If that's not your position, my apologies, but it's how you're coming across to me so far.
The problem is that it's not a personal matter. In order for voice comms to positively affect balance, everyone needs to be able to use them - or at the very least, most players need to be able to use them. Your personal skill and preference with the mic doesn't matter if your three teammates are a guy who speaks a different language to everyone else, a guy who doesn't have a mic to begin with, and a guy that needs to be muted immediately because they're either blaring loud music or live in a house with other people who are loudly arguing.
That's the reality of voice comms, that happens much more frequently than everyone being able to communicate. At that point, when you're in a game like that... nothing has changed, right? You're still in the exact same position as before: The quality of your games in solo queue are completely random based on factors you can't control. In a wider sense, nothing has changed for the game, either: Some players can communicate on voice, and most players can't, with the gap between them making balance very difficult.
It'd be a lot of time and effort put into introducing a feature most players won't reliably get to use, and that'll force most players into the annoying chore of muting whoever in their match is being obnoxious without any positive benefit. It's not a good idea; it categorically won't address the actual problem, and it wouldn't have any other benefits to make up for that, not reliably. It's net negatives all the way down.
To your point earlier in the thread about making friends and forming new SWF -- I would support functionality in the game that actually does that, like a guild system or some form of party-matching system. Voice comms, though, wouldn't do it.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404232/please-do-not-nerf-ultimate-weapon
It's extremely overpowered and has the same problem as WoO, it removes a core part of playing the game. Opening a locker literally finds the Survivors for you, you don't have to go look around to find people. It's not fair, there's literally 0 way for the Survivors to play against or counter it, it needs to be the Blindness effect only, and increase it to 45 seconds.
Perks that give insane info for nothing are highly problematic.
Insane info...?
It's a scream. That's the weakest form of information on where a survivor is, tied with a loud noise notification for that spot. Killer Instinct is stronger because it tells you which direction a survivor is moving in, and auras are much stronger because they're far more precise.
I don't fully agree with saying Ultimate Weapon is totally fine, but people really do overblow what it actually does. It's not insane information, and most information perks - including the ones that do give very precise and strong information - aren't directly counterable without a counter-pick perk on the survivor side.
In fact, it's the Blindness that needs to go. It isn't thematic, it isn't mechanically useful, and it's just an obnoxious annoyance to the survivors that disproportionately harms solo queue, albeit indirectly. They could also shift the numbers so the active timer is shorter and the cooldown is longer, that'd be a fair nerf.
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How on earth did that happen now? Skull Merchant can't do that anywhere near as effectively anymore, and there's the anti-3-gen system in place.
What on earth happened in that match?
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641531#Comment_3641531
So in summary, we nerfed one of the worst killers in the game.
If that killer 3-gens, but that's kind of what the system is for, no?
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I mean, that kinda depends on what you're asking.
If you're asking how to stop Ultimate Weapon from revealing you, there isn't one outside of Calm Spirit. That's not a problem, though, most aura perks don't give you a tell that they're even revealing you at all, those aren't counterable either in the strict sense we're talking about here.
If you're asking how to respond to Ultimate Weapon after it's revealed you, that'll depend on context, but generally you're probably just gonna be chased. You can fool it by walking and not leaving scratch marks if you're on the edge of the terror radius, since the killer only gets a static indication of where you were when you screamed, but that's situational.
Generally, I've come to think that the reason people think UW being "uncounterable" is a problem is because they're actually told when it's revealing them, when other info perks are the exact same way and just don't give a tell like that. Other info perks are much stronger and don't get this kind of flak.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641175#Comment_3641175
You're saying that we should be making balance decisions around people who aren't that good at the game, hence why DS needs buffs, despite the fact that DS is extremely popular at the highest levels and is in almost every single comp game.
So, it stands to reason that, if we want to balance around people who aren't good, we need to look at the kill rates. And what do the kill rates show us? That nurse is by far the absolute worst killer in the game, and significantly so. Often times a full 10% below the next highest killer.
So, when do we buff nurse?
No offence, but I'm suddenly doubting if you've even been reading these posts.
I'm not saying we should make balance decisions around people who aren't that good at the game. I'm assuming you're referring to when I say anti-tunnel should work without requiring you to be exceptionally skilled, but that's not even close to the same thing as saying we should balance the game in general around people who are actually unskilled.
This isn't a generic balance change being discussed, it's an anti-tunnel solution. It's operating in a different area with different expectations to other kinds of changes. Buffing Decisive Strike is meaningfully different to buffing, as a random example, Red Herring. They're completely different perks with different design intentions; DS is meant to counter a killer tactic and Red Herring is just meant to be a normal perk you actively get value out of yourself.
So, with that in mind, here's the question again: Is DS currently strong enough that it makes killers rethink tunnelling?
If the answer to that question is "no", then DS isn't functioning and needs to be buffed. It needs to be "yes", and it needs to be "yes" without requiring you to be tournament-grade in skill. Other perks - and killer basekits - don't have that core question because they aren't designed to counter a specific tactic, let alone a specific tactic in such a problematic spot.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641136#Comment_3641136
Ok, so when are we buffing nurse?
What?
Explain what you mean by that?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641034#Comment_3641034
So, DS is ok, as long as you are good at the game, but if you aren't, its fine. So we should be making balance decisions around players who aren't good at the game as opposed to the ones who are?
Oops, I missed this one, the forum's notifications are busted.
Right! To tackle this: DS is currently weak but kinda acceptable if you are very skilled and RNG breaks in your favour regarding map resources. If either of those two requirements aren't met, DS almost does nothing. This would be bad if DS were a normal perk you just wanted to get value out of reliably, but it's especially bad for a perk that is designed to counter a currently problematic tactic.
Even setting aside that anti-tunnel should just work without expecting you to be a pro, and that it should work without requiring you to be in a strong structure already, I'm gonna once again point to the core question: Is DS potent enough to make killers rethink the decision to tunnel someone before they do it?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641115#Comment_3641115
Or we could shoot for the outcome where we do nothing and not just give survivors a massive buff
Do nothing and let tunnelling continue to be a huge problem?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641103#Comment_3641103
I get the whole make perks that killers have trauma over spiel but still just make a basekit mechanic at that point also if basekit bt didn't give deep wounds that would be even more reason to sprint face first at the killer and bodyblock for the unhooker then use even stronger anti-tunnel perks to punish the killer if they dare go after you. It would make gameplay very silly because the optimal play is have the injured person take 1-2 hits then have even more hits if you dare go after them to get value for the hits they just soaked up
So no, just no the only olive branch I have to offer is maybe have that mechanic only on the first person hooked so you get full value from OTR, DS, and DH if you were hooked first in a match but no thanks to any of that that sound awful to play against or any kinds of perk buffs
Trauma over? It's just supposed to make you rethink tunnelling, nothing else.
As to the idea of it being weaponised, eh, sure, that's a risk. I'm personally fine with a situation where I'm occupying two survivors and the person who just got unhooked gets slugged for their troubles, that's more than enough value for me. Maybe it'd be kinda annoying, but it's not like it's subtle when a survivor is trying to weaponise anti-tunnel, you can just ignore them in 90% of scenarios and either slug them or hook them again in the remaining 10%.
The fact of the matter is, the current situation does not deter tunnelling. The only outcome we can shoot for is killers thinking twice before trying to tunnel someone, it's not enough to point to potential abuse and conclude nothing more can be done.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641084#Comment_3641084
The element of risk in tunneling is that you have 2 survivors minimum working on gens 24/7 while you are tunneling (with decent survivors) and 1 busy rescuing from time to time. Ignoring them to tunnel either leads to a 3v1 with objectives decently progressed or a lost game because you didn't tunnel well enough and its an all in strategy if you tunnel someone for 2 hooks and switch targets never you gained nothing, you need someone out to get value out of it.
The zero risk part to tunneling is when someone does it right at the start of a match which you could argue that the first survivor to be hooked for the first time should get something to make it so you can't tunnel the first survivor hooked but for a perk in the current meta of the game I don't think ds should be buffed
I count DH as an anti-tunnel perk because it gets enabled by being hooked and has perfect synergy when used with DS, since after getting dropped when used properly its a 2nd health state and since it resets upon being hooked again it provides the most value when being tunneled proportional to endurance health states to regular health states
That should be the risk in tunnelling, but considering how quickly you can hook someone again after that first chase (due to anti-tunnel being somewhat weak), it really isn't that risky. The entire risk is how much generator progress is done in your first chase, and even if it doesn't break in your favour, you still ruined that one player's match.
So, we have a very powerful tactic that is extremely difficult for the average player to counter and sucks to go against. That's a bad situation, so the clear way forward is to heavily disincentivise that tactic. Making it risky by making the anti-tunnel tools potent enough that hitting into them actually matters to the killer is a very good first step.
Buff Decisive Strike, and, buff the others. Make the basekit anti-tunnel not cause Deep Wounds so you can't clear Off The Record immediately, at least. With those changes made killers would hesitate before tunnelling, because actually trying to would carry risk.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641043#Comment_3641043
Off the record, decisive strike, dead hard
No a single perk or group of perks shouldn't be an end all be all deterrent against a playstyle only make it more difficult
Circle of healing when it killed hit and run
Distortion + calm spirit when they killed info perks for a while
Old ds + unbreakable that countered tunneling + slugging on top of just being an invincibility bubble while doing gens
Dbd is becoming less of a game of hard counters and more of a game of stacking soft counters because shutting down playstyles for a single perk slot is silly
Ah, I see. Dead Hard isn't an anti-tunnel perk, for the record, it's just an Exhaustion perk. A few of those can help when you're being tunnelled, but they aren't actually dedicated anti-tunnel tools.
I think the main issue with your argument here though is that it's resting on the assumption that tunnelling is a "playstyle" that is on the same level as hit and run or just... using information perks, as opposed to it being a problem for the game in its current state. There's really no getting around that, it's going to need to be brought out into the open: Tunnelling is not a legitimate tactic in the game right now, because it's far too strong, has almost zero risk, and doesn't even have particularly potent counters.
It would be a legitimate tactic if there was some element of risk involved. If you, as a killer player, had to think "is it worth trying to get the value of tunnelling this person out, when they could have [X]?", then it'd be in a much better spot compared to where it is now where no thought has to go into it at all. See someone get unhooked, down them, hook them again. Their input is minimal (albeit not zero the way it used to be), and the risk is pretty minimal too.
It's to the point where there are people who think you have to tunnel to win, because it's so much easier and safer than playing the game out normally. If tunnelling was risky, because the tools to counter it were more potent and you had to gamble on which ones are in play, then the other (currently more legitimate) strategies would start to look better by comparison because there isn't an easy shortcut to value overshadowing them.
TL;DR: Tunnelling isn't just any old strategy, it's a problem for the game. Fixing that problem will require, among other things, stronger tools to counter it properly.
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@Huge_Bush said:
While I love her and still believe she’s the best, I have to say it’s Claudette. Self Care has brought more misery to survivors than all other survivor perks combined 👹
Empathy and Botany Knowledge are some of the strongest perks in their respective categories, to be fair. I think it balances out pretty hard towards her perks being good.
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@Rogue11 said:
Remember last year when medkits and healing got nuked, it was supposed to be a tradeoff for serious gen slowdown nerfs? And now almost every match is 3-4 strong slowdown perks. Sooo can survivors have useful medkits/perks again?
I think you might be misremembering that patch?
The only healing-related things that got nerfed were medkits and Circle of Healing, the actual base healing nerf did not go through. It also wasn't supposed to be a tradeoff for anything, medkits and CoH were just too strong and got balanced accordingly. They did nerf the two strongest 3-gen perks at the same time, though, maybe that's what you're thinking of?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641012#Comment_3641012
Considering there are only 3 anti tunnel perks and 2 have perfect synergy I see no reason why a single perk should make a killer question using an entire strategy
How do you get to three?
There's two personal anti-tunnel perks, Off The Record and Decisive Strike. If you branch out into altruistic anti-tunnel perks the number goes higher than three since you're including Borrowed Time and Babysitter.
Either way: the reason all of these tools should be stronger is because they currently aren't an effective deterrent. Obviously you need to be careful with how you do this to prevent unintended abuse, but buffing DS to 5 seconds is a pretty safe pitch considering how hard it is to abuse that perk.
These perks also don't have great synergy, by the way, because a lot of anti-tunnel (including the basekit anti-tunnel) revolves around Endurance, and that doesn't stack. Rightly so for the most part, but it does mean OTR and BT are both rendered much weaker if you're hit within ten seconds.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641018#Comment_3641018
If the perk is bad, then why is it that it is used in every single comp game?
Man, where to start. I'll answer the question first, then tackle whether the question is relevant.
So, the answer is probably perk restrictions. Comp teams are gonna expect to see some tunnelling attempts, but they can't all run the strongest possible tools against that, so someone has to run DS. That's a guess, I'll admit, but it seems like the most likely answer.
Though, it should be acknowledged that DS is kinda-sorta okay if you're a really good looper and you go down in a strong area, something a comp team is going to have much more control over because comp matches are a completely different game to regular DBD matches.
Now, to tackle the relevance of the question. Does it matter either way? It really doesn't address the actual question I laid out, which I'll repeat: Do killers currently feel that DS is potent enough to rethink attempting to tunnel someone?
That's the question. How do comp games have any bearing on it?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641012#Comment_3641012
It always was 3 seconds back in the day, it was only ever increased to 5 seconds because enduring worked on it, making the stun 1.5 seconds and 100% completely useless at the time. So they buffed it to 5 seconds to deal with that and said they would change it back to 3 seconds when enduring was changed to only work on pallets. And what happened? Enduring was changed to only work on pallets, and they just never reverted the buff to DS.
Making it 3 seconds again, is closing the loop on a promise they made years ago for the perk.
There's some important context missing from this rundown, though.
We had it at five seconds (plus the Conspicuous Actions nerf) for a while, and that was the healthiest the perk has ever been.
Now they've closed the loop on that promise, and the perk is bad + its place in the game is not as healthy.
So, it kinda doesn't matter? It doesn't matter that the original intent was such-and-such. Bringing that up obfuscates that the perk was good and healthy at five seconds, and now it isn't. There's an obvious benefit to buffing it this way - deterring tunnelling at least slightly more than it currently is - and there's no obvious downside. Why bother bringing up the original intent of the five second stun if it doesn't matter in this context?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640986#Comment_3640986
5s in a straight line vs 3s in a straight line, at 0.6m/s speed differential thats 20s vs 33s of time just for using the perk, if 20s isn't enough then put in the effort to loop
It's not about whether the survivor feels like they got value from the perk, though. Considering Decisive Strike's place as an anti-tunnel perk, the question should be this: Does the killer feel like the stun is enough of a punishment to reconsider tunnelling?
Right now, the answer is no. Five seconds is something that many believe would change that.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640881#Comment_3640881
ash has a pretty decent set
just wish protection hit detection was better for mettle of man
He does now, but a while back he had two almost useless perks and a kinda hard to use perk.
Buckle Up used to be really bad, and Flip Flop has basically never been good outside of running Power Struggle alongside it. Mettle of Man has been kind of a meme since its initial big change, but to be fair I wouldn't call it straight bad either.
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Definitely not Jake, his perks are at worst just meh.
I'd say it used to be Ash, but his perks have been buffed over time and now he's got some perks so strong they're problematic. I'd say... Jane?
Head On is her strongest and it's okay, but it's mostly fun to mess around with more than it is strong. Solidarity is a mediocre effect ruined by the heal-drain status effect, and Poised is extremely inconsistent.
Oh, thinking on it as I type this, it's probably much more likely to be Ace. One of his perks has literally no effect on its own, and both the other two revolve around things you don't want to interact with; Luck, and chests. Open Handed is okay when paired with something that it affects, but Ace doesn't have any perks that can benefit from it, so he's probably got the worst Adept set.
Honourable mentions for Laurie, whose perks have all fallen from grace, and Cheryl, whose perks are all kinda weird and finicky to use. They're not as bad as Ace or Jane, though.
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Honestly, I kind of agree.
This current outrage is a red herring - Grim Embrace and Dead Man's Switch do not stack in any meaningful way unless survivors let it - but there is the looming potential of any perk that reliably kicks survivors off gens even briefly after a hook making it a problem again. Hell, you could argue that Ultimate Weapon is a fairly reliable pairing, and it can be kinda obnoxious.
As much as I like the idea of DMS, it might be a perk that needs a rework to prevent these kinds of problems from cropping up again.
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640779#Comment_3640779
The gen explodes at the start of the hooking animation, so unless you have direct line of sight of the killer hooking, or swf to tell you when to let go, no, you can't just let go when you see the survivor aura going onto the hook.
Assuming that's true (I'll have to keep an eye out and check next time I play survivor), we're right back to Pain Res and DMS being the problem, not Grim Embrace.
I have no idea why they changed that, it made Pain Res and DMS a complete non-issue. Definitely something that should be changed back.
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640751#Comment_3640751
The issue is that pre-change, you could wait out Pain Res for a few seconds of carry time, then you were safe from DMS. If it was GE without Pain Res, you could work through carry time and then let go before GE triggers to avoid the longer DMS proc.
Having all three means that you either wait a long time for both avoiding the PR caused-DMS and GE to expire, or you trigger it and have to wait a long time regardless. There's no winning counterplay, it's just whether or not the gen is blocked while you stand there unable to work on it.
The counterplay is letting go as the hook animation starts. That's how you counter Pain Res and DMS - or at least, it was for a while, and I'm asking you if that's changed.
Was that change made? Can you no longer counter Pain Res + DMS by letting go at the start of the hook animation?
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To be fair, you're missing some pretty important context in your reasoning here. DS was nerfed multiple times since release, but it also needed those nerfs, which it currently doesn't.
Even the big nerf that led to the state it's in now came with another justified nerf, it disabling in the endgame. DS was, for a very long time, a problem perk causing pretty big frustrations in the game- we only had a brief window where it had the right stun duration but also disabled on Conspicuous Actions, and even then it still gave you a free escape in the endgame if you weren't tunnelled before then.
Now, though, it's just weak. If it isn't on the slate for a full rework (which I hope it isn't, it doesn't need that), then it'll just be getting buffed. Maybe another minor nerf to keep it anti-tunnel alongside the buff, like adding something to the Conspicuous Actions list, but overall I'm confident it's getting buffed.
Also, there was a very logical reason to nerf Self Care if you take into account why 6.1.0 happened, but that's a separate topic.
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639900#Comment_3639900
Grim Embrace stops gens for 76 seconds. I really have no problem with Grim Embrace alone. DMS bumping every 12 second block up to a 30 second block is the problem.
Then you add Pain Resonance, so you can't just wait until the hook is done to let go and wait out GE, because the pop will trigger DMS anyway. So to "wait out" Grim Embrace, you're waiting out the carry time and the grim embrace time, at which point you may as well have just let it get DMSed.
As Pain Resonance activates at the start of the animation, you can't just let go of a gen with perfect timing unless you have SWF to tell you when.
I will freely admit that it's possible I'm wrong here, but I've been under the impression that Pain Resonance + Dead Man's Switch is still counterable by letting go as the hook animation starts, the way it was changed to be when Pain Res + DMS was a big combo the first time. Has that changed recently and Pain Res activates earlier now?
If it has changed, though, Seraphor is right. That means Pain Res + DMS is the problem, not Grim Embrace + DMS. In that scenario Grim Embrace isn't even doing anything.
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@FrenchBagels said:
It’s incredible that there’s people genuinely bootlicking terrible design after design just because the one before it was worse. The point of the Eruption comparison is because the combo is ALMOST as horrific as it was and NEEDS to change. It prevented you from doing the survivors objective completely. No perk should do that. End of story. What you effectively say here is down playing how actually incredibly destructive the combo is.
You’re goal posting. If Ruin’s first iteration came back, the first friggin’ thing you’d say is “well at least it ain’t Eruption!”
If Ruin came back and people started saying "did BHVR learn nothing from Eruption", you're right, I would point out that comparison is stupid. Doesn't mean I'd be defending it, just pointing out that the specific argument being used is off the mark and unhelpful, just as it is here. Remember, I did not bring up this comparison, I am responding to people being very direct and explicit in comparing the two.
I'm also not bootlicking, I disagree with you. There's a difference between those two things.
In this case, too, it's about a combination where one of the perks doesn't actually activate at the same time as the other one, so the synergy everyone's talking about doesn't exist. I think that's a pretty reasonable thing to point out, personally.
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@xEa said:
For me it is not of imporance if it gets (rightfully or not) comparared with other metas or buids, but it comes down to the fact that Grim Embrace is plain and simple very overpowered, some may say broken. I am not even talking about overpowered because it can be paired with DMS, but rather the perk itself.
Just compare Pain Res, an already very powerful Perk with Grim Embrace. Getting a total value of almost 80 seconds on ALL gens (GE) vs 90 seconds on ONE gen (PR) is not close to the same power level so to say. The same level would be if PR would trigger on every generator.
And like mentioned, it can be paired with DMS, which has the potential to lock every gen for 2 minutes. Two freakin minutes! How is this not busted? The funniest ######### is those people who defend GE are the once who complain about the minus 5 seconds for a gen on Deja-Vu.🤣
We should talk about how to fix Grim Embrace instead of defending it. It is pointless to even pretend this perk is okay.
Well, as I've laid out, the DMS combo is kinda nothing. The "potential" is that it can lock every gen being worked on (not the same thing as every gen) for that amount of time cumulatively, but only if you ask the survivors nicely and they obligingly shut their eyes to let you.
As to whether Grim Embrace is overpowered on its own, I'm stalwartly on the fence until I've seen more of it. It seems right now like it's probably fine - the new effect is gen blocking that is both less frequent and less lengthy than already existing perks, and the old effect has been in the game for a while so it's probably fine.
I appreciate, at least, that you're more open about just having a problem with Grim Embrace on its own.
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@NODD3RS said:
It’s like ftp/buckle up. It shouldnt exist in the game at all, but people will do mental gymnastics to try and justify it.
Does pointing out that it literally doesn't do the thing people say it does count as "mental gymnastics"?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640121#Comment_3640121
Especially the first time this occurs, so first hook of the game, what are you imagining survivors doing here?
There's no one injured, so you don't have to heal. Only one person needs to go for the rescue.
So you think two survivors are going to go look for a chest or totem and cleanse it in 12 seconds? That's not even close to realistic.
So the absolute worst case scenario here - and I mean that, this is like the scenario you describe where there's nothing else that could be done and the survivor in question doesn't want to go for the save + doesn't have any cause to mess with totems or chests - is that the survivor has to wait twelve seconds. A minor annoyance, but nowhere near close to the damage old Eruption would do to your ability to interact with the game.
There is, and I will not sugarcoat this sentiment, a gigantic difference between being locked out of performing almost any action that interacts with the game outside of chase, and just not being able to repair a generator. There's also a huge difference between the former being active for 25 seconds, and the latter being active for just 12.
This isn't even accounting for any other thing that could need doing/could be done when Grim Embrace activates. It also, and this is perhaps the most important point, isn't at all about the combination of Grim Embrace and Dead Man's Switch, so it's further proving my point that complaints about that combo are mostly just about Grim Embrace on its own.
It's also not new. Multiple perks cause these kind of wait periods and most of those are either longer or more frequent, or both.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Is it as bad as old Eruption? No, incapacitation was far too powerful for a perk with no restrictions.
But saying it's 'nothing' like Eruption is incorrect as well. It has the same problem as incapacitation did, where survivors are forced to be effectively afk.
Let's look at it this way:
Did you look at the gen for at least 12 seconds? If you did, do you call that 'gameplay'? (The answer is no, staring at a blocked gen for at least 12 seconds isn't gameplay).
It's a ######### mechanic, which is why GE was initially so restricted in it's implementation. Something about that got lost or forgotten when they buffed it.
That was the problem with Incapacitated on a perk, and that's exactly why Grim Embrace is nothing like old Eruption.
You are not forced to stare at a blocked gen for 12 seconds, you are just forced not to repair a gen for 12 seconds. No other action is prevented.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The counter is to stop repairing the gen and wait for Grim Embrace to finish. That's 20+ seconds depending on the carry time and when the killer leaves the hook. The counter itself is really strong for killers.
Carry time? You let go as the hook animation starts, so it's literally just Grim Embrace plus a few seconds to account for the killer walking away.
It's also not that the counter is really strong for killers, because the counter is just the effect of Grim Embrace.
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@Rulebreaker said:
You forgot to bullet that Grim Embrace only works with first hooks while you could tunnel and get value out of old eruption.
We agree that it's not as bad as old eruption combos, though we will point out it is a pain to deal with as it's effectively saying leave and go work on another gen/something or wait deadmans timer.
You only have to wait out the Grim Embrace timer, not the DMS timer. DMS isn't activating if you counter the combo, only Grim Embrace.
And at that point, sure, it's kind of annoying, but that kind of waiting has been in the game for a while. If Deadlock blocks your gen or if Thrilling blocks the gen you're running towards, you have to wait out a longer timer than Grim Embrace, and those could do that more frequently than GE too. This isn't really anything new worth this kind of outrage.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639905#Comment_3639905
The forum is full of anecdotal evidence, but somehow a Killer saying they just lost a game is the ultimate proof that DBD is survivor-sided, but someone saying that a certain build might be too good is anecdotal evidence.
Those would both be anecdotal evidence and neither would prove anything about balance.
I get what you're saying, but that double standard hasn't actually been displayed here, you're just... repeating the same fallacy you've seen elsewhere. It's not good evidence when you do it either.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I played the exact same build yesterday on almost all Killer games: Pain Res, Corrupt Intervention, DMS, Grim Embrace.
And I destroyed almost every team I faced, the only time I did not win (3K without all Gens repaired is a Win for me, because the Survivor just escaped because I was nice to not slug for the 4K) was one game with Huntress on The Game, where I got sent by the Survivors. And I am really not good at Huntress.
Other games have been with Bubba and Billy (on Billy I used Lethal Pursuer and BBQ instead of Pain Res and Corrupt) and I won all of them.
No Survivor complained about my Build, but they said it was annoying and strong. One Survivor said that if it is already painful on a "bad" Killer like Bubba, they cannot imagine it on S-Tier Killers.
And we will see it on more Killers over time. Even Eruption was not present in every game after its Buff. And while the combo is not as bad as Eruption, because the Survivor can at least do SOMETHING, it comes really close to it.
I'm not sure what anecdotal evidence like this is supposed to prove.
What were the survivors doing? Were key mistakes made that would've lost them the game regardless of build? Were they countering the specific combo this post is about? How much weight were Pain Res and Corrupt pulling? Without context like this, just saying "I won a bunch of games" doesn't actually mean anything.
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@anarchy753 said:
Being able to stop EVERY gen from progressing for two and a half minutes is ludicrous. And genuinely, survivors are standing around with their dick in their hands every time it happens waiting to be allowed to play the game again.
DMS should flat out just not trigger from anything that FORCES the survivor to let go of the gen.
It doesn't do that?
It stops every gen from progressing for 76 seconds total, and that's staggered across multiple hooks with the first three only being for 12 seconds.
To the point of the thread, too, that's nowhere close to what Eruption used to do. Even disregarding the actual regression Eruption would apply, under Grim Embrace + Dead Man's Switch survivors can do literally anything that isn't generators, unlike Eruption.
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To be fair, you do get diminishing returns on slowdown perks right now, since stacking four of them will end up harming almost as much as it helps in most matches.
Still, I acknowledge that's not an explicit mechanic. I think such a mechanic would be... somewhat hard to implement, considering how different the kinds of slowdown perks are from one another. Barring something extreme like adding perk tags and crafting a limit where you can only use two perks marked 'slowdown' no matter what, I don't think it's particularly feasible.
Better to just keep the slowdown perks balanced and push killers to craft smarter builds that don't over-use them, in my opinion.
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Definitely not bad - is it geared more towards solo queue or having some friends on comms? If it's for solo queue I might swap Quick Gambit out for something like Kindred or Bond, since knowing where your teammates are is pretty vital.
You could also swap Dead Hard out for something more reliable like Lithe, but Exhaustion perks tend to be pretty personal preference, so it's not a bad pick.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639012#Comment_3639012
I have yet to come across a killer that wasn't running GE+DMS. Also thrilling tremors doesn't kick you off gens and thus has no synergy with DMS.
Well, I have, but that's not really the point. The point is that you don't actually have to do anything if the killer's running Grim Embrace on its own, that's just a small amount of downtime on your objective equivalent to when Thrilling Tremors blocks the gen you're next to/running towards. It's happened to me, and it's kinda annoying, but not a huge deal.
It's not about whether Thrilling has synergy with DMS, because Grim Embrace doesn't really have meaningful synergy with DMS. It's about whether the amount of downtime you have to endure three times a match is really all that much, and the answer is... no. Thrilling Tremors is just an example of a perk that blocks gens for longer, more frequently.
Now, the fourth proc of Grim Embrace is definitely much more noticeable, but that one hasn't changed.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
You have to immediately let go of the gen before someone is hooked, wait until the gen gets blocked with GE, wait for another 12 seconds and then you can continue working on it. Absolutely wonderful gameplay, not in the slightest reminiscent of old eruption.
You only have to do that if the killer's running DMS with it. If they aren't, you just... keep repairing until you're kicked off, and wait 12 seconds.
It's less time even than Thrilling Tremors, it's really not that big of a deal and it's nowhere close to old Eruption in either timeframe or effect.
To be more specific for the topic, though, if your generator is being blocked a ton then the killer probably has other blocking perks to go with it, and of those DMS is the one you'd care about the most. Grim Embrace only works on each first hook, so if the killer has DMS and the downed survivor hasn't been hooked yet, you do the Pain Res counter of letting go as you see the hook animation start and either sit + wait, run to another generator, go heal/bless/cleanse/whatever, or start going for the save. If it's a second hook you don't have to care at all.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637931#Comment_3637931
And here you bring up the same thing everyone always brings up "the majority of survivors"
Pit the best survivor team in the world against the best killer player of each killer in the world. And the only ones that MIGHT win, will be nurse blight and spirit.
That is a problem.
Sure, but it's not a problem for you, me, anyone on this forum, or anyone in the wider matchmaking pool for Dead By Daylight.
It's a problem for people who play in tournaments, nobody else. For everybody else, you can win with almost any killer in the majority of your matches. Slight exceptions made for Trapper, who I think is much harder to win with even in the average match, but pretty much everyone else is absolutely viable.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638271#Comment_3638271
Current meta adjustments seem to be more concerned with nerfing perks that players enjoy using instead of buffing the low tier perks.
And this is really bad, especially when it affects perks that do not require nerfs, like Adrenaline.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638273#Comment_3638273
This.
It's not instead of, though. At most it's in addition to.
Take a look at this roadmap- Genetic Limits, This Is Not Happening, Distressing, and even arguably Decisive Strike at this point are all low tier perks that people largely don't use. I am going to assume - and I will admit it is an assumption - that the intent is to either buff those perks, or rework them such that they'd be more appealing, which means they are addressing the perks nobody wants to run.
They're just doing that and bringing the ceiling of the strongest possible options down a little. Whether you agree with nerfing the strongest stuff or not, it's clear they are doing both, not one instead of the other.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638872#Comment_3638872
Let me put this another way, both the effect and the counter play result in this:
Just wait it out.
Yes. Exactly. That is my point.
The combination is not problematic because the combination doesn't do anything. You would be facing the exact same gameplay whether the killer paired Grim Embrace with DMS or not. If you have a problem here, it's with Grim Embrace to begin with, not with the GE + DMS combo.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638774#Comment_3638774
DMS is every hook, GE is guaranteed value on every gen in the game. It also takes a 4.4 killer less than 4 seconds to walk 16m, so, ironically, you're looking at roughly 26 seconds of blocking.
So this is exactly like Eruption in the sense that you're confusing a '26 second block' with a '26 second block on every gen in the game'. So 3 survivors getting kicked off of gens is about 78 seconds of slowdown on your first hook (26 x 3 survivors). So before the survivors even know it's in play, making this essentially guaranteed value.
You also have the same issue as Eruption that you aren't able to predict exactly when it's going to trigger, even if you had perfect comms.
And, as someone else put it in another thread, I can't stress this enough:
When your options are 'do nothing for a while' or 'do nothing for a while to avoid doing nothing for longer' then you have an awful game mechanic that should not exist. Which is exactly the lesson they didn't learn with Eruption and incapacitation.
It's not at all like Eruption because it's only generators. Incapacitated stops you from interacting with the game for the most part, only a narrow few actions are permitted, so just gen blocking is nowhere close.
You also can predict exactly when it's going to trigger. You as a survivor can see the start of the hook animation, which gives you time to let go of the generator. This is exactly how you fool Pain Resonance and Dead Man's Switch, it's not different for this combination unless there's something big I'm missing here.
I also have a problem with that last paragraph, because that's not a criticism of this combination - and it's not even really a functional criticism of Grim Embrace on its own. When you counter the combo, only Grim Embrace is activating, and so it's not "do nothing for a while to avoid doing nothing for longer", it's "stop repairing generators because that is the effect of Grim Embrace". It wouldn't be different gameplay if DMS weren't in the killer's build, not meaningfully.
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Even setting aside that they already said it isn't a nerf in the first stream that showed off a roadmap, the Pig has been buffed in some way almost as many times in a row as she was nerfed, and those nerfs happened years ago.
It's time to let go of the "nerf Pig" nonsense, or at least acknowledge that any comedy that phrase has comes from the fact that it hasn't happened for ages.
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@Pulsar said:
God, I sure do love NOT being able to do anything!
And guess what? It still hasn't reduced tunneling! Crazy how they'll tunnel someone out and then get free value and make the 3v1 even more unwinnable.
What perk in that loadout is stopping you from doing anything?
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@skylerbound said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638046#Comment_3638046
For that match there was no point to even touch a gen because by the time it went away you got like 10s to work on a gen before someone was down again.
every single killer I’ve had this session has this combo. It seems gen rushing has become the counter for everyone tho not much value if gens get done before you hook
That's a completely different issue to any perk combination, to be fair. It does only work three times even in those doomed games, at least.
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Was it not possible to completely deny that synergy by letting go of the gen as the survivor gets hooked?
Seems like that should be the case, on paper, but I haven't been in game to check yet.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637980#Comment_3637980
NOED is still can be problem if survivor hooked next to it.
And i don't know how Adrenaline is problem, especially in current meta where it's more rare to see end game. Yeah i am not fan of this and probably they will nuke this perk to ground.
Like how even they will nerf it? No heal will make it just pointless.
Here's how they could nerf it fairly:
-No longer wakes you up against Freddy.
-No longer activates if you're on the hook when the last generator is powered.
Both fair nerfs that won't kill the perk, but the second one at least will curtail how strong it currently is. I'm not sure why so many in this thread are acting like Adrenaline isn't one of the top three strongest perks in the entire game for both sides right now, it's not surprising a perk like that would be looked at eventually.
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To be fair, I think BHVR just meant the regression events change when they said it won't affect normal matches.
As to the other changes, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Both of them revolve around things that have been talked about for at least as long as I've been playing - gen tapping, and base regression being bad + not worth it. I figure BHVR were already looking at generators to fix 3-genning, and decided to address gen tapping and boost base regression at the same time since they were already "in the neighbourhood", so to speak.
I do kinda wish they'd decided to increase the base regression rate instead of the instant damage on kick, since that'd affect more than just dry kicks, but I guess that is something that'd need more dedicated testing so I suppose it's fair to go the other direction.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637238#Comment_3637238
Ds user gets unhooked and immediately body blocks for their unhooker (in swf they can do this for anyone the killer chases). The killer either hits the ds so they can path normally, which extends the chase and punishes the killer, or the killer eats the ds and loses both chases at the same time. This is exactly how old ds was used
If you want to cut down on tunneling, buff gameplay that isn't tunneling. Buff thanatophobia, bbq, and survivor healing perks
That's not even close to the old abuse. DS isn't even doing anything in this scenario that the survivor wouldn't be getting from just having basekit BT to begin with; they tank one hit and run away, or tank two hits and get slugged. DS isn't affecting that in any way in your example, so how is this even abuse to begin with, let alone the old abuse DS used to enable?