jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647234#Comment_3647234
no matter what, you can't negate more time than the time that passed.
it does not matter how many people you interrupt. if you interrupt an action that takes 10 seconds, you negated up to 10 seconds. you didn't negate 30 seconds because there was 3 people there.
you interrupt a heal, you negate however much time was invested in that heal. and that is it. (obviously same applies if a perk removes 30% of a gen or something)
which is different from optimizing the time you spend, because two+ people can take different actions at the same time. and proper action economy always wins.
and anything like "but it means they have to heal later and that means I negated double the time", it doesn't and no they don't. If we bothered with this we would be just creating a scenario in our head which will fit anything either of us want. it's meaningless.
like "you stop the heal, oh look the last gen got fixed and they had adrenaline" or "they just loop you until the gate is opened and leave". we can go back and forth, it's endless, it's useless.
What people are saying is that because two survivors were occupied, it's 20 seconds worth of potential generator time that you negated.
I do think some people adhere to that concept a little too religiously and can miss some important context about when real time matters more than potential generator time, but it isn't a completely unsound way of looking at the topic.
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Botany Knowledge is one of the best perks in the game right now, it definitely does not need that buff.
If Botany could be paired with medkits, that's all people would do with it, and it'd completely undo the penalty to self-heal speed that medkits were balanced with. It is using a perk slot to achieve that, I'll acknowledge it, but it's still a pretty dicey proposition. You'd have to nerf the speed back down to where it was before... and at that point, you've just kinda ruined Botany Knowledge because it's a lot less useful for altruistic heals.
It's great as it is, it doesn't need to be changed.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
She's not op but the amount of effects she gets passively just for placing a drone is too much. Her skill floor is non existent and her skill ceiling is extremely low. By simply placing down a drone she can:
get haste
apply hindered
apply broken
become undetectable
get passive tracking
monitor an area
Other killers can also counter looping, but they at least have some sort of skill expression while using their power. Not dull merchant though (and knight, but this isn't about him). She doesn't need to aim, she doesn't slow down, she doesn't need to worry about placement, just press m2 and the loop becomes unusable. That's what people hate about her. There is no skill expression in a merchant chase. If she doesn't like the loop, she places a drone and you have to leave and most likely eat an m1 because there is no slowdown while deploying a drone.
To be fair, she only gets one of those things just for placing a drone down. The rest come from survivors being scanned, which should require her to actually be in chase with them and pathing at least somewhat smartly. Whether it's too much still is another argument, but it's only right to be accurate.
It's also worth mentioning, regarding the whole "drop something at loop, force survivors to run away" thing... it's both not the only thing she does, and she's not the only killer that does it. I'm not defending it, I do think it's boring, but it's also not fair to make out like it's the sole domain of the Skull Merchant or that she doesn't do anything else.
(She also very much has to worry about placement, her drones don't work through walls/obstacles anymore)
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I'm talking about without having picked a perk ahead of time, I acknowledged in that post that aura-block perks are the only counter to those killer perks.
Obviously Distortion counters those perks and Calm Spirit counters Ultimate Weapon, but without that counter-pick perk, there's no counterplay to a lot of info perks. That's the norm.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646590#Comment_3646590
View my other comment below she is. Survivors sometimes at least won those long games usually not more than 30 minutes though.
"Too strong" would still be a much better outcome than where she was before.
I also don't know that she is too strong, honestly. Whenever I play her and survivors don't actively give up, it kinda seems like a lot of people just don't know how her power works.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646108#Comment_3646108
No she has million of drones she is not fine. She is somehow even worser than before.
She's definitely not worse than before, that's very obviously more than anyone could claim.
Not holding games hostage until the server closes is just flat out better even if it were still bad.
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@Nebula said:
If there’s one thing that’s proven to be true in this game, it does not matter how much you nerf survivor or buff killer, some people will always try to make it a 3v1 as early as possible. There’s been numerous, numerous examples in the past of the community asking for something because it’s the reason either survivors genrush or killers tunnel, that change is made, and nothing changes.
As long as it’s easier to win with 3 survivors alive instead of 4, nothing will ever change. There will always be another excuse to get rid of somebody as early as possible. The goalposts have moved so much over the past few years on this issue it's actually ridiculously funny.
"Gen speeds are too fast! They should take longer and killers won't feel the need to tunnel", Gen speed increased by 50 seconds overall, and in reality probably closer to a whole 6th generator when adding regression into the mix. People still tunnel.
"Gen regression perks are too bad! Only Corrupt and Ruin are viable!" Jolt buffed, Pop buffed, Grim Embrace buffed, Pain Res, Dead Man's Switch, Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption meta happened. People still tunneled, more if anything.
"Survivor healing speeds are too fast! I can't apply enough pressure to stop survivors from cranking out gens!" Healing speed nerfed, Circle of Healing nerfed, medkits nerfed, sloppy butcher buffed, thanatophobia buffed, etc. People still tunneled.
"Survivors aren't healing anymore due to the nerf to healing, now they're only doing gens and not healing!" Kept tunneling.
"Toolboxes are too strong! They shave way too much time off gens, change those and people won't have to tunnel!" Toolboxes nerfed, BNP nerfed, scavenger destroyed before even making it to live. Nothing changed.
Let's be real, the community (including me) doesn't know what they want and don't know how to fix this game. It's been out 8 years, it's going to take a full on overhaul and a plethora of changes to fix the issue of tunneling. Every change this game has made has came with a different excuse as to why people continue to play the way they play. It's more than likely never going to change considering the scale of changes they would need to make, it would more than likely require them to take a content break and we've seen that they're not willing to do that. Everything else is a band-aid fix.
I agree with your overall point, but I think it's important to be as accurate as possible in these conversations - there was not a healing speed nerf, that change didn't make it off the PTB. It's also worth mentioning that the massively fast self heal speed was a problem that affected every killer, not just tunnelling ones, that warranted changing without that implied cause. By which I mean, it wasn't part of this cycle, it was just a normal balance change for its own sake.
I also don't think toolboxes were nerfed? Wasn't the last change to them that the skill check chance was buffed?
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To the wider topic, I think this somewhat misunderstands both problems. Genrushing won't be addressed until the tools that enable it are changed - this change seems to assume that genrushing is just survivors being on generators as a priority, but if that's what we consider genrushing, the term has no meaning. Genrushing, in my book, is bringing the strongest possible tools (always a toolbox, plus one of two sets of supporting perks; either Hyperfocus/Stake Out, or something like Streetwise and Built To Last) and cranking out generators as fast as possible. Rework toolboxes and the problem vanishes-- not that it's a particularly big problem right now, to be clear.
Similarly, tunnelling is something people do because it's easy, not because the alternative is too weak. You can make not tunnelling as strong as you like - and BHVR have been making pretty hefty changes in that regard - and tunnelling will still happen unless the tools to punish it are potent enough that it stops seeming like the easiest shortcut to value.
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Something to remember here is that a fair amount of people still just give up immediately when they see the Skull Merchant, and if the forums are to be believed, more than that number play intentionally badly to be out of the match ASAP. That's going to mess with her kill rate on top of nightlight not being 100% reliable.
Largely she seems fine to me. I don't mind the idea of hacking a drone removing one stack, though, that seems pretty fair- encourages the power interaction a little more without severely harming her ability to get work done.
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I'm going to get him when I get paid next- his perks are at worst slightly undertuned, they're perfectly useable and fit into interesting niches.
Boon: Illumination is the draw for me because I have a build I already run that'll benefit a lot from it, but it is a little undertuned and his other two perks are just better.
So if you ask me, yeah, the perks are worth it!
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Light touches would be required for both, tunnelling slightly less so.
Tunnelling: To start, the base protection shouldn't count as Endurance. It should be a single damage-block that doesn't put you in Deep Wounds, meaning you can pair it with any source of actual Endurance to make yourself an even less appealing target. This should obviously deactivate on Conspicuous Action (and as an aside, the CA list should include getting a flashlight or pallet save).
Additionally, perks should be stronger to serve as a real deterrent. At minimum, Decisive Strike needs to go back to 5 seconds, and potentially work on both hooks. Off The Record wouldn't require further changes if it actually combo'd with the base protection instead of invalidating it.
There'd be the slight concern of bodyblocking, but it wouldn't be significantly worse than a survivor just bringing OTR now if the base protection lasts the same amount of time. Annoying, but often a detriment to the survivors, so it'd be fine. This wouldn't necessarily be a hard death sentence to tunnelling, but it would make it riskier than playing your objective more aggressively by spreading pressure, so I think that'd be enough-- at least for a bit, see how the dust settles.
Genrushing: This one's super easy, just nerf the tools survivors use to genrush. It's impossible to genrush without toolboxes, so rework those to provide some other benefit that isn't generator speed, and the problem basically vanishes. Even the potentially problematic perks like Hyperfocus take a huge hit if they can't be boosted with toolboxes.
The only other change I'd suggest is a spawning change. Even without genrushing, if all the survivors spawn spread out and hop on generators immediately, it's kind of unbalanced how little agency the killer has, so survivors should spawn in groups of two or all together. With those two changes, genrushing completely disappears.
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@RipperX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645178#Comment_3645178
Video is a bit older but it has been made after the healing nerf and iirc a bit before pt and bnp slighty nerf ( or around that time anyway )
So yeah, it is possibile to do a gen in 25 seconds and heal in 6 seconds
This video wasn't made after the healing nerf, you can see he's got a green medkit as one of the modifiers for self-healing speed and that isn't true anymore. There's also a bit at the end where he shows addons, and the extra-charges one is still green, not iridescent like it is now.
I also think you're misreading some of these? The shortest gen time Otzdarva lays out here is 45 seconds, not 25, and it's one he discounts because it's such an edge case. While the shortest heal he lists (that takes time, at least) is 6 seconds, that isn't doable anymore because of nerfs that happened after this video was made.
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@RipperX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645124#Comment_3645124
And yet gens can be done in 25 seconds (or less), healing can be done in 5 seconds or even mid-chase with a layer of endurance, way to many perks can provide speed boost ( and they stack ), there are permanent buff ( WoO, Deja.Vu, and so on ) and a comp SWF can beat almost any killer
So yeah, no it's no better than before, it's just different than before
How on earth are those first two things possible?
Even counting extreme edge cases I think those numbers are kind of a stretch, what am I missing?
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645128#Comment_3645128
Not a fan of using info and chase perks since they barely make a difference, if you wanna get more pressure you shouldn't waste too much time just chasing 1 survivor and kicking pallets.
I certainly agree with that last part, but that's why you run chase and info perks. Don't waste too much time in chase, because the chase perks make it shorter, and don't focus too much on one guy, because the info perks tell you where everyone else is.
They make a difference if you use them smartly, you can't just slap a few disconnected ones on and call it a day. They need to be a coherent build to work, but once you do that, they work very nicely.
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That's probably a good thing, to be fair - your objective isn't to defend gens, it's to kill survivors.
You don't need to go for a full endgame build at all, you can get plenty done with chase and info perks. If you play an M1 or hybrid killer, try just stacking chase perks; I've got a build with Enduring/Spirit Fury/Lethal Pursuer/something like Bamboozle or Cruel Limits, with the goal of just chewing through resources until there's nothing left.
I'm not saying there's no problems with gens, to be clear, as infrequent as it is a true genrush scenario is truly unbalanced, but in most games you would get more done if you'd forgo the slowdown and focus on your objective rather than your opponent's objective.
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@Thralfazuz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644407#Comment_3644407
unless you got green map but the pink one does nothing
Nope, it works.
It starts with a gen tracked, and can scout the gens + hooks + totems at bare minimum. You can't see the little action-progress bar because that part of the UI is disabled, but it does still activate.
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So far I've played Clown, Trapper, and Skull Merchant; in order, my main, a killer I thought would benefit from the gloom, and a killer that has some in-built tracking to overcome the gloom.
Trapper worked out pretty well, which is an unexpected little boon. It's nice to feel like your traps might actually catch survivors...
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The mode doesn't inflict you with Blindness, the Map item still works and is very useful.
I was honestly more displeased that you could get other items in those chests. Seems like Maps and Keys with the teammate-aura addon would be the only items you should be able to get.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644201#Comment_3644201
Oh, i misinterpreted your point then. My bad.
Happens to the best of us, no worries lol
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644193#Comment_3644193
You mention the aura perks having no counter/tell. While true, you also have to acknowledge that their window of activation is either very limited, or out of the killer’s control.
LP: Only active at the start of the match.
FoR: Requires a Scourge Hook, and is activated upon unhook, which you don’t control.
Bitter Murmur: Can only proc 5 times in a match. Also out of the killer’s control when exactly it triggers.
I’m All Ears: Is only going to proc in chase. Not sure why this one’s even brought up, this has a different purpose.
Nemesis: Same as ^. Even more limited, at that.
Eruption: Only triggers on downs.
Infectious: Same as ^.
Nowhere to Hide: Only procs around gens. As I said before, only does anything if the survivors weren’t already running.
Gearhead: Only works on survivors working on gens. Ie., limited to very specific areas.
UW is on demand, and has massive, moving range at that. It cannot be mistimed, because you control when its activation period begins. The only limit it has is that it has a cooldown.
It makes evasion straight impossible without being forced to run CS, because all the killer has to do is open a locker, and move. You cannot tell when you’re going to scream if you don’t have constant LoS on the killer, because it happens the instant you enter the TR’s range. It’s also not like you can outrun the TR.
That kind of strength has to have some kind of limit. Either through some different kind of activation method, a significantly higher cooldown, less range, or by having a tell of some kind.
Sure, but that's a different argument.
It being uncounterable is a nothing complaint because that's the norm. It having too broad of an activation window is a completely different complaint and one that definitely has a lot more legs, there's an actual discussion there.
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@IpsilonX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644036#Comment_3644036
While true, it is definitely the hardest info perk to even attempt to counter, very near impossible, as you have to know not only that the killer opened a locker, but when it was originally opened and be able to time it. Then there's the fact that it's "down-time" (assuming you are the only person left and haven't been detected) is 30s before it's completely free to be used again. Just pop open another locker and boom. Once you factor all of that in, it's virtually impossible to counter. Save for Darkness Revealed (which is just stay away from lockers) all other perks have a distinct activation trigger that is able to be identified from the other side. I would also argue that it really is kind of obvious when someone has a survivor aura read perk because they (usually) immediately come over after the trigger has been activated, giving you solid info about that.
Pretty well all other perks you are able to anticipate and move to avoid it. Eg. someone's being hooked = go into locker, killer's coming to kick gen = go into locker or run away, near a killer chasing someone = run away, UW has none of that. There's zero info given to the other side that it's active, which gives it SO much power.
As much as I hate it, I hate it because of it's usefulness. It replaces so many perks and does SO much for so little. It makes endgame scenarios pointless. Though the activation duration is far too long. The fact you can completely cover the entire map with it, without using a high mobility killer, is insane. And the cooldown duration would have to be adjusted to compensate. The blindness is just.. Far too much. Too much for something that is pretty well unavoidable and already does so much.
Though, one thing I need to point out is that a MASSIVE reason why survivors feel it's so completely unfair is that BHVR has spent so much time tuning aura perks. Killers have SO many aura perks to choose from and survivors have about 3 different anti-aura perks (Distortion, Sole Survivor, OTR). There is precisely 1 anti-scream and it's garbage in comparison. OTR gives you endurance and Iron Will, Sole Survivor gives you repair and open speed buffs, Distortion hides your scratch marks. Calm Sprit makes you not scream or disturb crows and tanks your totem/chest speeds. Kinda... Eh, especially considering it's the ONLY perk you can use to prevent screaming
That is not true, the hardest info perks to counter are the myriad of ones it is completely impossible to counter.
There is no counter to Lethal Pursuer, Floods of Rage, Bitter Murmur, I'm All Ears, Nemesis (assuming the killer has it in an Obsession-swapping build), or Territorial Imperative (lol) short of using an aura-block perk. Even if you know these are in play, there's no avoiding their activation, not really. Assuming you have to perform some of those actions (someone has to unhook for Floods, for example, and if someone's hooked in the basement someone has to go down there, etc), you will be revealed, and you cannot stop it.
There's also no meaningful counter to Eruption, since it's very hard to know when someone's about to go down - that's why it was changed to an aura read to begin with. The same is also true of THWACK, since you can't tell when the killer's about to break a pallet with enough time to actually leave the radius. You could make the argument this is true of Infectious Fright too, but it's a little easier to just book it away from a chase and have that not be throwing, so we'll give that one a pass for now.
Then there's the ones that are technically counterable if you know about them, but give no indication to you that they're in play. This includes Gearhead, and kinda-sorta Nowhere To Hide. The killer could make it obvious with NTH, but if they don't, you don't know it's in play. With Gearhead, you're just not gonna know.
I think a lot of people get too hung up on perks like BBQ, which do have clear activation on the survivor side and kiiiinda give the right tell they're in play. That perk can be countered, most aura/info perks cannot.
This is normal. Most info perks just work and you as a survivor counter them by making yourself hard to catch, not by denying the information to begin with. That's been perfectly reasonable for a long time now, Ultimate Weapon being "impossible to counter" puts it with the other info perks, not above them. There may be arguments to make about any other element of the perk, but that one isn't a problem. It's normal.
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@IpsilonX said:
It will never cease to amaze me just how thick people can really be...
30s of just popping into TR and screaming each activation is a little much. You can literally paint the ENTIRE map in that time. If you're "just trying to find someone for chase" you don't need 30s to do so. 5-10 would be more than enough.
The cooldown is a little low. If you're actively chasing someone (assuming you're not scraping the MMR barrel), the cooldown has probably been long over by the time you're done with your chase. 45s would balance things out more, especially if factoring the above point.
The blindness is completely uncalled for. There's every possibility that you're unable to use ANYTHING aura related for literally half of the game (assuming perfect uptime and being REALLY unfortunate). That's not JUST aura perks. That's also dying teammates, be they slugged or hooked. The fact there's no way to counter this aspect of it is completely broken. Yeah, the blindness STILL applies through calm spirit (unsure if intended or not, but...).
Since everyone LOVES to bring up how this is no different than any other aura perk, here we go:
DR: Limited range around lockers, which are VERY map dependent
BBQ/C: Once per HOOK and outside of a certain range
Infectious: Procs on a DOWN within a set range around the downed survivor, easily avoidable by getting away from them
NTH: Short duration and limited range (range is no different on Hag than Wesker), also not able to augmented by Monitor or Distressing
Floods: Procs on a SCOURGE HOOK UNHOOK and doesn't show the unhooked survivor
Nurses: Limited range and circumstantial
Alien Instinct: Shows you the FARTHEST INJURED survivor, not the person 3 feet from you - this perk is problematic for other reasons, not going into it on this thread
Bitter Murmur: Only procs when a gen is completed
Eruption: Shows IF they're holding the affected gen while you down someone
FttE: Shows you obsession on hook or scream on hooking if non-obsession
Gearhead: Shows aura on good skill check for 30s after injuring someone
IAEars: Shows aura on a fast vault
Lethal: Shows at beginning of match on extends aura times, otherwise useless after first 10s are over
Nemesis: Shows on obsession change
Rancor: Shows auras on gen completion
Hangman's Trick: Shows you auras of those around scourge hooks while carrying someone
THWACK!: Scream and show aura on breaking wall or pallet after getting a hook
Territorial Imperative: Shows aura of someone entering basement if you're beyond 24m
In all of this, there's only one perk that's not reliant on something out of the killer's control that's also timed. And that's Darkness Revealed, which has a MASSIVE blind spot and is EXTERMELY map dependent. But, yeah, let's keep saying that UW and other perks are the same.
Reduce the activation duration, increase the cooldown time to compensate, and remove the blindness. It's still going to be stupidly powerful (if you're not able to get value out of just a scream showing you where someone is, sounds like a skill issue).
Also, y'all keep trying to compare distortion and calm spirit. You can't. Distortion not only hides your aura, but also your scratch marks, which is what makes it kinda problematic in chases. If you use Floods and are chasing someone with distortion, once that unhook happens, they lose scratch marks for 10s. Calm spirit literally prevents your from screaming or disturbing crows (I actually have UW to thank for ruining Spies for me..) and nerfs your ability to do totems or chests, which actually is really broken if you use hex totems. Distortion has no downside and has use outside of just hiding auras.
It's worth correcting you on something here, just briefly.
When people say that Ultimate Weapon is no different to other information perks, they're responding to a very specific complaint: The idea that the perk is uncounterable without a counter-pick perk on your end. That is where Ultimate Weapon is no different to almost any perk on your list; any perks on there you could even try and counter would require you to guess that the killer has them.
Info perks are typically uncounterable and you typically don't even get an indication they're revealing you. That complaint is just wrong, regardless of anything else about the perk.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643675#Comment_3643675
So, can confirm the following removes tokens (this is not everything but just some of the more interesting ones):
-Pinhead possessed chain hits (even without Engineer’s Fang)
-Deathslinger shot (regardless of if damage is dealt or not; the follow-up M1 also takes 2 tokens for a total of 4)
-Trickster knives (2 stacks per knife)
-Nemesis tentacle strike (even if it doesn’t cause damage)
-Artist crows, even if not causing damage
-Artist crows spreading to the obsession when using Severed Hands
-Wesker slamming a survivor into a wall
The following list of attacks/injuries do NOT remove STBFL tokens:
-Trapper traps + Bloody Coil addon
-Pig addons that cause injuries/deep wounds for missed skill checks on jigsaw boxes
-Vile Purge (Corrupt Purge does remove tokens though)
-Breaking the chain off as Slinger causing injury and/or deep wound (the shot itself still costs 2 tokens though)
-Zombies
-Dredge locker grabs (when teleporting to an occupied locker)
-Wesker throwing a survivor into a wall/object causing damage (strange that this one doesn’t count, it probably should)
-Knight guards
-Skull Merchant drones
Some of those make some sense, I don't think zombies or vile purge should really count for instance- and I don't think any grabs currently remove tokens.
But yeah it does look a lot like STBFL is bugged right now. I actually remember this happening with the buff to Blood Favour a while back, that definitely activated when Trickster threw a single knife and it was kinda busted. Probably a similar code thing happening here.
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@Jean_Cobra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643675#Comment_3643675
I can confirm it. I have testin this perk in game on bots. You should look on the dbd reddit, many ppl talk about that.
A perfect exemple who show the disaster of this nerf: each kunai of the trickster on the obsession will instant remove 2 tokens. You have 8 stacks of stbfl ? Good, now you have nothing after a chase against your obsession.
Hopped in a custom game myself to test it, and you're right-- which means this post should definitely be in the Bug Reporting section, there's no way it's supposed to be working like this.
It's just supposed to be Basic Attack and Special Attack, as it says on the card and as they said in their dev update/patch notes.
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Are you sure about those?
Right now it should just be Basic Attack and Special Attack, not any power use. Pinhead's Possessed Chain isn't a Special Attack, and nor is Doctor's Static Shock, but the Knight's guards and Skull Merchant's drones are.
Have you tested these to make sure that the powers you're referring to actually cause token loss?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643656#Comment_3643656
Your asking way to much of people...
Apparently so, but a gal can dream...
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The problem here is your root observations, rather than the explanation for them.
Getting the game more press and relevancy by keeping unbalanced things in the game for them to talk about would make sense as an active decision IF your observations about the current state of the game were correct... but I see no evidence for them being correct, so the conspiratorial thought doesn't really graduate beyond baseless conspiracy theory.
Things like "recycled killer powers" and "copy paste survivors" are great examples of root observations that just aren't true. They haven't been doing that - you're falling for the popular narrative that all new killers are lazy recycled elements and all new survivor perks are worthless trash. It's the same with the core idea that the game is currently actually all that unbalanced, when it's actually the closest to fully balanced it's ever been.
A lot of people have a tendency to either overblow the few bad decisions BHVR actually makes, or act like perfectly reasonable (or at least neutral and unproblematic) changes are themselves bad. In extreme cases, it's both. Rather than trying to come up with justifications for why those things might be true, it's better to examine the claims themselves to see if they hold water. Most of the time, they don't.
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@WishIcouldmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642588#Comment_3642588
I suspect it’s because it is a very good Solo Q stomper, also might be because no one seems to run healing perks.
It's only a good solo queue stomper because people refuse to take any steps to counter it, and I have a special grudge against those players getting Mangled/Sloppy nerfed because I am a solo queue player and desperately wish people would start running some goddamn altruism perks.
They're really good, guys!!!! For the love of god!!!!! This wouldn't be a problem if you'd make helping your teammates a reasonable priority in your builds and playstyle!
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The web novel Worm, by the author Wildbow.
The protagonist, Taylor Hebert, would make for an excellent killer, and there's enough horror vibes to her that she'd fit despite her source material not exactly being pure horror.
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@Jangles said:
Like the reason mangled was introduced with the heal fall off was because with COH and a green medkit you could self heal in chase in about 8 seconds. You cant do that anymore so it doesn't need to be as strong anymore.
That's Haemorrhage, not Mangled.
Haemorrhage would actually make sense to be on this roadmap, but for some reason they're looking at Mangled instead.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643074#Comment_3643074
Totems don't move, detectives hunch is a garbage perk, you choose when to use maps, bond/empathy/empathetic connection all give consistent info (the survivor you saw across the map 5 secs ago is probably still in that area, same for 30 secs now that YOU have given the killer something to investigate)
Woo is the only perk that is really consistently denied in a real game scenario. On paper it does all of these great and terrible things, but blindness is kinda garbage. Complaining about it is a zero sum game because all it's going to do is add to the pile of unnecessary and arbitrary nerfs because one side or the other was inconvenienced in a minor way
Considering that Blindness is kind of a garbage status effect that the killer isn't really going to notice or use much, and that it's also kind of annoying to deal with on the survivor side, would it not make sense to remove it from the perk?
You're kind of repeating my point back to me. There's no reason for the Blindness to be there, it doesn't really help the killer in any meaningful way (and when it does they'll never know because it's not something that meshes with the perk's main use), and the only impact it has on the game for any player is that it'll annoy survivors that try to bring in off-meta aura reading perks.
Like I've said, this is my point. It doesn't help killers, but it annoys survivors. The player who brought the perk isn't getting anything out of this effect, so it's not like they'll notice if it goes away.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643095#Comment_3643095
Because survivors really only use woo. All other aura reads are garbage
That's obviously not true, lol.
Even if it were, it seems like a stretch to assume everyone's talking solely about WoO and then get snide about how it's a skill issue if they don't like it being disabled by an info perk.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643095#Comment_3643095
Past few months it's the most common perk I've seen survivor's run. When I ran some sort of blindness perk/add-on the survivor would run away from the next loop due to a lack of game sense.
You don't think it's a little unfair to assume everyone talking about this perk's Blindness is the kind of person that relies on WoO to this degree?
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643095#Comment_3643095
When else does it matter, generally? It's not hard to keep track of the aura of most things through a 30 second block. The only time it's really effective is in a chase, and usually because of WoO. I have to agree with the killer mains on this one, anyone saying the Blindness part is OP must be relying way too hard on aura-reading. The other half of UW massively powercreeps the entire suite aura reveal/stealth perks on both sides... but Blindness is the problem? I don't see it. When this perk gets its deserved nerf, I'd actually hope the Blindness effect stays as is.
Well, I guess if you're talking very specifically and only about the strength of the aura blocking, that makes a bit more sense.
I'd probably still think of it blocking a perk that matters instead of Windows, but sure, I get where you'd be coming from if it's solely talking about the strength of the perk and nothing else.
The Blindness should still go, obviously, but it's not the strength of the perk that dictates it.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642663#Comment_3642663
Skill issue, if you can't loop without WoO
Genuine question: Why on earth is everyone acting as though the Blindness only affects WoO?
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643007#Comment_3643007
The point is that killers don't use it for the blind. Survivors are complaining about the secondary functionality because they have grown dependant on their crutches.
Uw blind is fine because the perks it affects still work on both sides of the effect. The only aura reads that are actually affected come from woo
Close!
The point is that the Blindness status effect is a wholly disconnected freebie that the killer doesn't really have any cause or opportunity to actively use. On their end, the Blindness may as well not exist, it's arbitrary.
But for the survivor side, they have the annoyance of perks being turned off when they aren't actually relevant to the situation. You say that the only aura reads that are actually affected come from Windows, but that's... obviously not true, all aura reads are affected by this. If I'm running my totem build with Detective's Hunch or a Map, that's affected. If I'm running Kindred, Bond, or Empathy, that's affected. If I wanna bang out a chest-opening challenge with Plunderer's Instinct, that's affected.
I think the disconnect here is that everyone assumes a survivor screaming means the killer's going to chase them, but numerically, that can't actually be true. Only one of them will be chased, and every other survivor that screamed still has the annoying, unnecessary Blindness to deal with for no reason. Blindness is always kinda annoying in these circumstances, but it being slapped onto a perk that can apply it pretty consistently and that doesn't even benefit from applying it consistently is especially aggravating.
So, conclusion: removing the Blindness from Ultimate Weapon is a pretty reasonable suggestion. It's not about strength, it's not about "crutches" or "dependency" or what have you, it's just about it being annoying for one side and unnecessary for both sides. It's adding nothing but annoyance.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642870#Comment_3642870
Aura reads are a crutch for both sides. They're helpful, but not necessary
I apologise because there's no way for this to not sound demanding, but: I am going to need you to relate that to my point.
You can see what my point is, I've repeated it a few times.
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@Azulra said:
For anyone who doesn't know already, Overcharge is currently a permanent effect even after the initial skillcheck because it only goes away after the gen stops regressing fully and to stop a gen from regressing fully as a survivor you have to work on the gen for 5 uninterrupted seconds. This initially doesn't seem like much until you realize how easy it is for Skull Merchant to chase survivors away from a gen in a 3-gen as long as the gens are close enough together. So as long as she can keep chasing survivors away before they can stop the regression the gens will always be regressing by 130%.
Yes, this isn't NEARLY as powerful as pre-update gens, but it is still powerful none the less.
That makes some sense, but I'm confused on why Skull Merchant would be highlighted here. Any killer that moves at 115% or above would be able to do this, surely?
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Returning to the hook is pretty normal gameplay, to be fair. If you don't already have someone in your sights as killer, returning to the hook and chasing the unhooker is perfectly fair game.
If they're tunnelling that's a different story, of course, but just returning to the hook is pretty normal and acceptable.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642550#Comment_3642550
The game does tell you what your team is doing. The profiles on the side tell you who's in chase, who's seen by the killer, who's on gen, who's healing, who's doing totems, and who's doing chests. The real important timer ones even have progress bars
Yes, I slightly misspoke there. The perks I'm referring to would be telling you where your teammates are and some specifics of what they're doing-- like which generator in particular is being repaired, something the HUD doesn't tell you.
That, of course, doesn't change my overall point.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642638#Comment_3642638
That's a lot of words to say you don't understand the value of Windows. You use UW to find close by survivors and initiate a chase... which can really drag on when survivors have Windows.
...What?
How on earth does this disprove my point? How on earth is this not proving my point by resorting to holding up a very specific perk the survivor might not even have as the major selling point of the Blindness effect? How is this also not a completely different argument to the one you initially made?
I'm legitimately at a loss for words as to how you came to this conclusion based on my post.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642602#Comment_3642602
Yes that is something people can say when a part of their post is quoted but not the whole thing, except your "overall argument" didn't provide any additional context.
You feel inconvenienced by a killer perk. Killer perks are designed to inconvenience survivors.
It is possible to have a discussion about relative balance of this perk, bit it seems all anyone wants to do is whine about it even existing.
It has counterplay. There are other comparable perks. Are those perks similarly problematic? If not, why?
Such as:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642614#Comment_3642614
Pain Res works on the exact gen you want it to work on. UW works on the gens within your terror radius.
That is a discussion point. Not "it's not fair that killers get a perk that stops me reading auras"
See, that's why you should probably pay attention to the overall argument, because yes there is more context.
The Blindness on Ultimate Weapon only annoys survivors, that's why it's fair to suggest removing it.
Take some other recent perks with multiple effects- Alien Instinct, and Friends Til The End.
These are both perks with a very similar design to Ultimate Weapon - they're information perks which also apply a status effect. For Alien Instinct, it's Oblivious, and for FTTE, it's Exposed. Both of these status effects are ones that it makes mechanical sense to apply at this time- the injured survivor is going to have to pay more attention to know you're coming, and the Obsession is going to need to be more careful too since they're vulnerable to a one-hit down.
Compare that to Ultimate Weapon. How does the killer actively utilise the Blindness when it procs? What is the throughline between revealing a survivor's location, and turning off that survivor's aura perks? You could maybe make an argument about specific perks that could be relevant in that scenario, like Windows or Dark Sense, but it's very much dependant on that survivor having brought those perks, and isn't something the killer's going to get feedback on if it's working. From the killer's perspective, the Blindness is a freebie that may or may not be doing anything, not one part of a coherent whole when it comes to perk design. From the survivor's perspective, multiple perks that might not even be relevant to the situation were just turned off for thirty seconds.
Whatever the original intent was behind adding Blindness, it currently only exists to be an annoyance, that's it. Preventing aura reading doesn't just affect perks like Windows, or even niche off-meta picks like I described elsewhere in the thread, it's also something that (indirectly) harms solo queue more than SWF since a lot of the good perks for solo are ones that reveal teammate auras + not being able to see slugged survivors is more impactful when there's no communication.
See how this isn't at all just "describing every perk", even if you don't agree with me?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642562#Comment_3642562
"Making something you want to do harder"
You've just described every perk in the game.
And there are several perks that do multiple things.
Yes, taking those few words out of the context of the overall argument does make the argument a lot weaker.
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It's mildly annoying to see Mangled/Sloppy nerfed for no reason when they're very easy to counter, but cest la vie. Things change, hopefully it won't be too bad.
As for the killers- I'm holding out for some specific changes, personally.
Doctor getting partial Discipline addon basekit, and Clown getting partial Smelly Inner Soles basekit. Those two could benefit a lot from changes like that.
For Pig, ideally we'd see some buffs to her stealth and a slight change to her boxes to prevent screams resetting progress. I don't think anything about the traps themselves needs changing at this point, she's in a pretty good spot there.
No clue for the others, though.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642562#Comment_3642562
The issue with your statement is, you say "it's not a matter of git gud when it counters your aura reading perks, especially while looping the killer". When it comes to looping the killer and aura reading, the counter to that is to not build a dependency on your aura reading. AKA, get good.
Not a dependency, we are talking about how it's annoying for Ultimate Weapon to have a secondary effect that is both annoying to face, and not all that helpful for the killer.
Blindness itself isn't necessarily a problem, but Ultimate Weapon's Blindness is both easy to apply and relatively lengthy, making it an annoyance the perk doesn't need.
Sure, you don't need to run any kind of aura perks. Most of them aren't even all that good! However, I'd also say it's not that healthy for there to be a popular perk on the killer side that heavily discourages any survivor from trying, especially when that perk is primarily picked for a completely different effect.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
If you need to see the killers aura while looping, it IS a skill issue, and it IS a matter of "get good". Period. This is not an argument. I am objectively correct.
So, I know you're not actually interested in a conversation, but just for the record for anyone else watching:
Wanting to, and needing to, are different things. Ultimate Weapon making it harder to do a thing you want to do for no real reason, as a secondary byproduct of a perk that the killer is running for a completely different reason, is an unnecessary annoyance you could easily remove without any problem.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642417#Comment_3642417
Blindness counters nothing if you have a bit of map awareness. "Get good" is the solution.
Blindness counters every killer aura perk, for one. That's not a case of 'get good', you don't get to use map awareness as a replacement for literally seeing the killer's aura, especially while looping.
Plus things that game awareness won't tell you, like where your teammates are and what they're doing. That's another thing Blindness counters.
TL;DR, that statement only works if you're still thinking about Windows of Opportunity after I've already said I'm not talking about that perk.
And, finally, there's the point of me bringing it up, which is that I'd like to use these off-meta, non-standard perks, and Ultimate Weapon's Blindness makes doing that annoying for no real reason. The Blindness proc isn't something the killer really actively uses in a way that's thematic or appropriate for the perk, so losing it wouldn't actually hurt the killer experience and it'd make the perk a hundred times less annoying to face on the survivor side. It's just an obviously good change.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642400#Comment_3642400
I think the end of your post is a bit over the top.
The whole thing is a parody of a post about returning shopping carts, for the record.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642417#Comment_3642417
What fun builds do you run that are shut down by Blindness?
Totem builds using boons and Overzealous (granted, that one's more because I don't have the totem spots memorised), altruistic builds that use Empathy or Bond, gimmick chest builds, and Blood Amber key builds.
Hypothetically Saboteur ends up slightly weaker too, but I don't personally run that one and to be fair it does still function.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642401#Comment_3642401
If blindness is too hard for you to play around, that's a skill issue.
My goodness the post-pandemic WoO training wheels crutching crowd is mind boggling in their inability, or rather, refusal to do anything but what they saw their favorite content creator do.
Blindness counters a lot more perks than WoO, and most of them are the fun kind survivors tend to not run.
I speak from the perspective of both roles when I say the Blindness on Ultimate Weapon should go. I don't like having my fun niche builds disabled by a perk the killer's mostly running for info anyway, and I also don't think the killer benefits much in any direct way from the Blindness on Ultimate Weapon, it's just a potential upside you'll not be able to tell is doing anything.