jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653056#Comment_3653056
Ok, so now,
- You have something that is super overpowered in the hands of a high level player, but super underpowered in the hands of a low level player what do you do?
- You have something that is super overpowered AGAINST low level players but super underpowered AGAINST high level players. What do you do?
There's no way of answering a question that vague without also being super vague.
Like, the answers are "change it so that it's more approachable but has lower overall potential" and "change it so that it's a little bit harder to use/has less frontloaded value, but has higher potential", respectively, but that's meaningless buzzwords for the most part because there are no specifics involved.
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These changes are revealing that apparently a lot of people think Pig's traps are for killing survivors and not for slowing the game down.
The timer before a head pop getting thirty seconds longer isn't going to change the fact that you're dragging survivors off generators to go search boxes. The entire point of Pig's power is that it guarantees a head pop won't happen if survivors willingly give up generator time to go search boxes. All thirty extra seconds will do is provide slightly more team counterplay if the Pig is trying to hard focus down one person with a trap, and that's not even viable to begin with.
So, the timer nerf doesn't matter and the box aura nerf is a little more noticeable but ultimately doesn't matter. In exchange, we at least have the beginnings of giving Pig a proper chase power and improving her stealth. Yeah, the devs are serious, because this is a buff overall.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653235#Comment_3653235
they made BT basekit and now zero people run BT despite the fact that it more than doubles the endurance. I Don't think survivor mains would be willing to equip it because in their eyes, they already have it so it's a wasted slot.
And again, Borrowed Time shouldn't have been a perk to begin with, protection for recently-unhooked survivors should've been basekit from the start- or at least early on.
As long as the perks are things that are required to fix basekit gaps, and as long as what you're left with on the perk is useful afterwards, making them basekit is fine. For Borrowed Time and for my Kindred suggestion, both requirements are met. Whether people choose to run them is a wholly separate issue.
@Rulebreaker said:
From the ideas we've seen something along the lines of more emotes (or at max a "chat wheel" though we dislike the idea) would help. The above idea of upgraded items to would probably work the quickest and easiest to test.
That said there's no solution to the randomness of teammates. You can't really force people to play how you want not control how skilled they are. MMR works (in a sense that it does what it's supposed to do) but gets thrown through the window when people dodge causing its own issues. At this point we're believe a better way to teach people how to play would be a good start.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653195#Comment_3653195
In our defense, you've never really played until you play drunk by daylight
Oh, I don't doubt it. No shade, my drunk teammates are probably have more fun than me in a lot of matches lol
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653195#Comment_3653195
I like most of what you said but I would hate to see more basekit perks. Kindred is the perfect SoloQ perk and making it basekit just means more people with meta perks. They know they're soloQ, they have access kindred because it's a generic perk, they should be willing to equip it. The devs shouldn't hold people's hands so eagerly.
People have an irrational dislike of basekit perks, in my opinion. The only perks that have become basekit recently - Borrowed Time and Shadowborn - never should've been perks to begin with.
Kindred should exist, but there's no denying that coordinating unhooks is a big flaw with solo queue. A brief showcase of where your team are, similar to how you're shown the hook survivor's aura and a slugged survivor's aura, is consistent and reasonable without being broken. Kindred would still be the perfect solo queue perk because it'd extend that aura reading and show you where the killer's going, making it partially basekit would just be alleviating the current problem.
There's a big big difference between being willing to adapt to solo queue by equipping one of a number of perks, and needing to run specific perks because their value is a huge gap in the basekit. Solo queue survivors should be willing to run useful perks like Bond or Empathy, but they shouldn't need to run Kindred specifically.
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The first thing we definitely need to acknowledge is what we are trying to fix. BHVR would have to be the single best game developers on the planet and across history in order to fix problems that are just inherent to queuing up solo in team games, and I don't think it's too cruel to say that they just aren't that good.
So, what do I mean by that? I mean that you're always going to run the risk of losing because your teammates make stupid decisions (or because they're memeing, or they're drunk, or they're distracted, whatever the reason), and there's no way of guaranteeing that teammates who are of the same skill level as you will have the same priorities or understanding of what they should be doing. These things cannot be fixed and it's just how solo queue works in every game that has a solo queue.
With that in mind, I'd rather look at the problems that are DBD specific. Right now, in my view, that basically boils down to one thing: Information exchange. Not communication, that's a different concept, I'm talking about the specific information SWF have access to that solo queue don't which makes a meaningful difference to quality of experience. That distinction is necessary, because it wouldn't easily be possible to give solo queue all the information that gives SWF an advantage and it might not even really be a good idea to begin with.
Long preamble, we get it, skip to the conclusion! So, I'd suggest the following:
- Survivors can see their teammate's perks in the loading screen, and mid-match in the "pause" menu. Note that it wouldn't be a good idea to let people see perk builds in the lobby, that would escalate lobby dodging.
- Partial basekit Kindred effect. Partial both because it shouldn't include the killer aura, and because the survivor auras should only last for somewhere between five and ten seconds. Enough to not be fully flying blind without Kindred, but also not too much to render Kindred obsolete.
- Possibly a ping system. I'm on the fence about this because it'd be by far the most tonally different change to make, but simple phrases like "I'm going for the unhook" would really substantially improve solo queue when survivors feel inclined to use them. Since that last part isn't guaranteed, this should never be the only change.
- Carefully curated specific perk/item buffs that increase teammate information without granting any extra to SWF. Examples: Aftercare losing its deactivation trigger, and the Key item gaining the ability to read survivor auras by default. If solo queue players bring these perks/items, they should feel more substantial.
- Last and mostly least, generic and non-specific improvements to matchmaking and backfill, etc etc. None of us have the data to be specific about this point but it does matter.
TL;DR, info gain is the main DBD-specific issue with solo queue and is where I'd look for solo queue improvements.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653137#Comment_3653137
Didnt BHVR say Trapper is fine in an AMA?
Everyone complains about Trapper being weak and overly relying on stalling perks, yet a Killer that is so good that half their players don't even bother picking any and go full aura reading (which is the Chad way to play Huntress) gets a massive buff.
They said Trapper had an okay killrate specifically, immediately before telling everyone he was going to get buffed, which he then did. People extremely badly misread that AMA question and it was extremely embarrassing to watch.
To the wider topic, I think this is maybe missing the context that the changes are designed to lower addon reliance? OP suggests buffing those addons when the whole point seems to be changing Huntress so she feels less dependent on those addons to perform well on certain maps.
I don't disagree with most things said about how to improve her overall but it does feel like people missed that context. Everyone on the list but Clown (and Blight I guess) was specifically being pushed to be less reliant on certain addons, and got some basekit buffs to sort of complement that.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653090#Comment_3653090
I already explained the biggest core problems to her kit in the main post-
Oh, the core issues with the Ambush, right. My mistake, I thought you meant her core issues overall, which actually were majorly addressed last time she got a buff. I also thought you might still be talking about her somehow being reliant on the timer addons for her head traps.
I think it's very possible that these buffs will help the Ambush be more useful, but we won't know until we test it. Like I've said, I do think there's no real reason for her to move slower than survivors while crouched, but the faster in/out and the increase in Ambush distance probably will have some effect. We really do just have to test these changes.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653066#Comment_3653066
They've done these kinds of changes to Pig throughout her life time in DBD and yet all the other were hardly even noticeable due to how little of a dent they put into her core problems. If it didn't work the last few times they tried it then it's more than just likely to not work again and any nerfs she receives to her kit is always gonna be significant as long as this issue continues with her.
What do you mean?
The last documented change to Pig (not counting the snuffing totems thing) was the update that gave her an extra box and adjusted the RNG of searches-- which was the change that actually made her traps reliably consistent and singlehandedly catapulted her out of the "bad killer" ranks and into the "actually pretty good" ranks. It did work the last time they did it, that update was a massive buff to her consistency.
At this stage, I have to ask, what do you think the core issues with her kit are?
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653047#Comment_3653047
Again, as long as she's being weighed down by her core problems no changes are gonna fix her at all unless they are extreme buffs to outweigh her problems and then that can cause more issues for the survivor side. It's pretty much not arguable at this point that Pig needs way more help than what BHVR are doing right now.
Okay, but that still just means she doesn't change, not that she's being nerfed. If the only changes are slight buffs that won't fix her core problems and even more slight nerfs that won't even be noticed, she's still overall improving very slightly.
I think those buffs will help more than you do, but neither of us will know for sure before we can test. I'm personally of the opinion that there's no reason for Pig to still be slower than survivors while crouched, but the other buffs should be fairly noticeable.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652570#Comment_3652570
I'm going to disengage from you at this point since you want to continue arguing against a strawman and not have discussions in good faith. If you would like to reset the conversation and continue talking, you can answer my previous question
Should this game be balanced around high level players (top mmr) or average players (where most players are)
If you aren't willing to go on that route and want to continue arguing with a strawman then i'll just move on from this discussion. No point in continuing if someone won't do so in good faith.
Isn't the answer to that question a pretty obvious "both, and also people who are below average too"? What's the discussion that comes from that?
Genuine question, to be clear.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653045#Comment_3653045
Just as supersonic853 said, some things don't need to be tested to know just how bad the changes are-
And just as I said, that doesn't mean BHVR should take gut reaction feedback as an immediate red flag that they messed up. At most, they should use it as direction for what to keep an eye on when the testing actually starts.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653028#Comment_3653028
That's not the point- Unless her core flaws/problems get outright fixed or even have her stealth and Ambush reworked minor changes like these aren't gonna stop her from being reliant on her traps and nerfing her traps before fixing her isn't how you try to resolve the problem. At the end of the day all that really does is instigate her core problems to an even more extent.
Right, but they aren't nerfing the part of the traps she's reliant on, they're nerfing the timer. That part won't matter because the point of the traps isn't to get head pops with them.
You'll notice the box aura thing a little more, but decent tracking skills and some info perks will resolve that, so it won't be a big deal either.
Overall, Pig is getting buffed, that's inarguable. Her stealth and Ambush are getting marginally better, and her traps aren't meaningfully changing at all.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653023#Comment_3653023
Tbf i dont think i need to test pinky finger with the new update to know how abysmal itll be. Same for 10 hatchet huntress with windup or hatchet movement speed. Since all that does is further amplify what makes them annoying. Clown with 9 bottles even without pinky finger could be annoying to face if he just pelts you with it over and over since he doesnt lose distance unlike others. But ill see when it releases.
Sure, but that also doesn't mean that BHVR should immediately take a step back and reconsider. This community is extremely notorious for massive overreactions to things that might not even be problems to begin with, and also extremely prone to not fully considering what the changes actually are before getting mad - see here, where OP states that Huntress will get to stack her windup buff with the addon that already does that.
I also think some of these changes are likely to be too much, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically right or that BHVR should make decisions based on immediate gut reactions to a dev update.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653023#Comment_3653023
How often do you see a Pig who isn't running neither one of her Gear addons nor Tampered Timer? Because I've only seen it on very rare occasions where they're trying to do something specific.
I don't know, I don't really keep track. It wouldn't really change anything either way, if a lot of people have decided they want to get reliable head pops it doesn't magically become the purpose of RBTs.
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I don't think that immediate gut reactions from people who haven't even had the option to test the changes being talked about should be taken as any immediate red flag to step back and reconsider. I think it's fair for BHVR to at least wait until the PTB is live and actually able to be tested before they pay that close attention.
There's also a couple things worth noting here. For one, they aren't buffing the Flower Babushka, they state outright it's being adjusted to compensate. For two, Pig isn't even remotely reliant on the trap timer addons unless you're very specifically trying to get reliable head pops. For three, people do actually mind the extra hatchets change, that's the change I see called out the most, but that's subjective.
TL;DR, changes need to be tested before feedback has weight and you've maybe misread a few changes separately to that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652864#Comment_3652864
it will be huge nerf because the timer keeps going even when your on hook. In essence, the change encourages killer to slug. For example, say mangled is 60 second on sloppy, you get hooked, you stay on hook for 30 seconds, now the timer has 30 second remaining.
The change also punishes spreading pressure because if you hit 3/4 of people, there is large odds that at least 1 of those player will have their timer expire, so change also encourages tunneling.
I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying the perk isn't dead.
It encourages survivors to stay injured, it doesn't encourage killers to do anything other than react to that. Reacting to injured survivors is easier for some killers than others, but because Mangled is something you bring actively as killer, you can bring perks that help you punish that decision even on the killers that aren't natively able to do it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652957#Comment_3652957
originally it didn't have penalty. it was full bottle count for 3+ years. i am just glad that clown has a more enjoyable base-kit.
Exactly, and it was busted. The original Iridescent Head only had a very minor penalty for years too, it took them a long time to fix that one- and for some reason they did it properly with the Iri Head but not for the Pinky Finger, despite Clown's bottles being a much easier to regain resource than Huntress' hatchets.
They added that penalty for a reason. It's never been unavoidable, even though it should be, and it's going to become even less relevant if the addon isn't changed to accommodate.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652951#Comment_3652951
i think add-on is fine. if you want to nerf it, then maybe make it set clown bottles to 4. I am more excited for yellow bottles being useful and higher bottle count. he really needed those changes.
Four instadown bottles is also too much, that's why it has the penalty it has to begin with.
Do agree the rest of the changes are good, though. Heck, the extra bottles is a potentially good change outside of being used with that one addon.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652856#Comment_3652856
that would kill add-on. So far, I am only excited for clown's changes. the rest of them seem uninteresting. poor demo.
Good, it's a badly designed addon that needs a full rework.
If they don't have time to do that, they should at least make its downside unavoidable.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
It's a combination of multiple things and various people have problems with any combination of said aspects.
- Her teasers painted a very different image than what we actually got. A lot of teasers very heavily leaned into the mechanical aspect of her character. Personally the teaser we got of the drone reminded me a lot of the movie "VIRUS". Very old movie about a machine that merges man with machine to create monstrosities. Very good film. This is partly on the fault of the community as we got the wrong idea. We had it in our minds that we were finally getting a cyborg or robot killer and instead we got...Skull Merchant. Also shoutout to the one teaser for Tools of Torment that was literally just one of the crates placed in Shelter Woods. That was really cool.
- Leading on from point 1, her design is genuinely terrible. It passes the silhouette check sure but it isn't a cohesive design at all. The mechanic's jumpsuit makes her look well like a mechanic. While the overly gaudy gasmask and clawed rings give a completely different impression of her character. These aspects just don't mesh well together and BHVR should have chosen one or the other. Thankfully her cosmetics are a lot better in this department as they play into her rabid anime fangirl personality that we get from the lore. Which speaking of.
- Her lore is bad. Laughably bad. This is me speaking entirely on her base lore and not the archive lore. I never fully read the archive lore so I can't speak on it. The fact that Adrianna becomes insanely rich at such a young age without having any knowledge of business, finance, or management is questionable at best. While her reasoning for killing being explained as "Dark Brazilian manga's" feels insulting. It reads like a bad fanfiction. I know most people could not care less about BHVR's attempts at character building and lore, but it's still a note worth mentioning as it was meme'd to hell and back when she initially was revealed on the PTB.
- The time frame. She dropped during a VERY heavy 3 gen meta and her power which effectively was "I love 3 gens" left a VERY sour taste in people's mouths. You have to keep in mind this is a killer that had a power so effective at holding people hostage that many would bring games down to a crawl until the server would shut down an hour later. I don't think I need to explain how this is both poorly designed and just not fun to play against. While she isn't like that currently thank god, she still isn't exactly the pinnacle of BHVR's design team either. She is a killer that has very little input as most of her abilities are passive and near non-existent mechanical skill. Nobody is going to watch a Skull Merchant place a drone and go "huh that was a good play". It's just someone at a keyboard pressing M2 or the console equivalent. It isn't fun to play as for most, while it's mind numbing to play against.
- Skull Merchant just attracts obnoxious players. Not all of them are terrible mind you, but the general consensus in the community is that Skull Merchant players just are some of the worst. They BM, they slug constantly, they try to hold the game hostage etc etc etc. This is all completely subjective, but it's worth noting it has been a reoccurring trend that people have experienced with this killer, so they associate that kind of behavior with her.
There's likely more I am missing, but this is the main stuff that comes to mind off the top of my head.
Considering only one of these isn't deeply subjective, flat out wrong, kind of irrelevant, or all three... aren't you kind of making the case that the Skull Merchant hate is deeply irrational and unreasonable?
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652892#Comment_3652892
I‘m fine with them not killing someone constantly, but they are already never killing someone and they aren‘t any threat. I would like them to be a threat, but nerfing them to never ever happen again is just stupid.
They're not supposed to kill survivors, that's the point. The threat of them is to stop survivors from repairing generators, and push them to go search boxes. When the survivors do go search boxes, they aren't going to be killed by the trap, that's almost guaranteed... but the traps have already done their job because those survivors gave up generator progress to prevent their death.
Head pops should be very rare, that's the whole point of her power. That's why this change ultimately doesn't matter, the timer is almost irrelevant as long as it's pressure to not be on generators- and plus thirty seconds isn't going to make survivors more comfortable repairing while trapped when they already don't know how many boxes they have to search, that's nothing.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652885#Comment_3652885
The time and auras should at least stay the same. They only have to make, that when you scream the box search stays the same or that it losses progress over time.
They could stay the same, or they could be changed, and neither would affect the viability or value of the bear traps, because they're not meant to consistently kill people.
Agree about the scream change, though, surprised that wasn't here.
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@jonifire said:
I really dislike the patch.
Pigs most fun part are the traps, which are just more useless now. It is already extremely rare, that they kill someone. I think the traps should actually be buffed, instead of being nerfed.
Doctor/Hag/Demo are fine I think.
Huntress is very strong and will now be far too strong/overpowered.
Clown I already hated to play against him and now he is even more annoying and you have even less chances.
Mangeled was never the problem it was haemorrhage. This status effect should get the cooldown.
It's very rare for Reverse Bear Traps to kill someone because that's not the value they're supposed to give. If they could reliably kill people, they'd be far too strong. That's not what they're for.
With that in mind, the two nerfs Pig is receiving are extremely negligible. The timer increasing doesn't matter at all, and not being able to see the aura of boxes really only serves to tone down some of Pig's meanest and most unfair plays.
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While I don't like this change and don't see a reason for it, it's worth mentioning that Sloppy Butcher (and Mangled in general) just changes who it's used on and why, it's not dead.
Like you said, they'll stay injured. Killers that capitalise on that will still get use out of Mangled.
(I also kinda doubt Sloppy makes a difference at the top level of play, that's where survivors don't feel much need to heal in the first place.)
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I'm also concerned about that change, yeah.
I think the Pinky Finger needs to get the same balancing as the Iridescent Hatchet and it's wild to me they didn't do it that way in the first place. Hard set the bottle capacity to 1, maybe 2, and make bottle-increasing addons not affect it.
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@Bloodwebs said:
She is my most hated killer. Hearing her terror radius is harrowing. Unfortunately i just KMS on hook and go next now. Otherwise its 1 hour long games where the killer isn't even chasing the survivors unless she baits you back into the 3 gen.
How on earth is she still doing that now, when both her power has been changed and the basekit anti-3-gen system stops any killer from stalling the game out that long?
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@thatkatemain2468 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652456#Comment_3652456
(almost)every killer since Oni
Some of those are among the most counterable killers in the game, though, and some of them don't even have a loop power to begin with- like Sadako.
What makes them killers that make looping obsolete?
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@thatkatemain2468 said:
can anyone copy and paste where in the post i said this was about anti loop killers? its about unfun killers who have no real tactical counterplay other than get as much distance as you can and pray the randoms split up and do gens because even a 5 year old can close chase against pros in less than 20 seconds on a very consistent basis. killers whom "survivor skill" has absolutely no weight in the outcome of a match.
listen, any killer that my daughter(who is in kindergarten) can consistently 4K with while having no real concept of game mechanics or fundamentals is poorly designed. this isnt about winning or losing for the 50th time. its about boring and stale gameplay. mind games and outplaying your opponent is what makes this game fun. killers with no tactics for either side are not fun.
Which killers are you referring to, though?
Every killer in the game has some level of counterplay, you'll need to be more specific before people know what you're talking about.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652340#Comment_3652340
People definitely seem to have conflicting opinions on what counts as anti-loop. Is any killer that has a power that makes running around in a circle more dangerous considered an "anti-loop killer"? Because if so then we're putting Skull Merchant in the same boat as Clown.
More to the point, that definition would include most killers. I think the most fair way to describe anti-loop if it isn't meant to always be a problem is powers designed to punish unsafe use of resources-- so a Nemesis Tentacle Whip that can hit you in animations if you space yourself poorly, that kind of thing.
If it's meant to be a problem, then it should refer to the Artist/Knight/SM concept of something dropped at a loop to force you away.
Anything beyond those two starts to get really muddy, in my opinion.
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@woundcowboy said:
The funny thing is, antiloop killers can still be dodged (or just prerun.) It isn’t easy to hit a competent survivor who knows how to dodge. The standard for something being “OP” in this community is basically that the survivor has to make some kind of play and can’t be 100% safe.
What I think this comment illustrates is that "anti-loop" is a term people seem to use for wildly different things.
Here you're using it to refer to a damaging attack that would be used at a loop, right? Something like a Wesker dash, or a Nemesis Tentacle Strike, things like that?
Whereas a lot of other people (including in this thread) use it to refer to things put down at a loop to pressure survivors away, like a Skull Merchant drone or an Artist idle crow.
It's one of those terms I think everyone has to define as they're using it or these kinds of conversations become talking past one another real quick.
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@thatkatemain2468 said:
OK, Nurse Blight Plague Wesker Spirit Billy Huntress, all very strong killers. None of which fall into the topic of this thread. All very fun to play as and against with unique powers to shut down chases without making looping obsolete.
Nurse does shut down loops, though. You don't conventionally loop Nurse, and you usually don't end up using pallets against her.
Similarly, windows and pallets are some of the easiest places to get hits with Huntress and Plague (with Corrupt Purge up).
I am genuinely having a hard time getting a read on what you want killers to do. There's basically no killer in the game right now that really makes looping obsolete except Nurse, so I guess you're referring to the issue of some killers being able to use their power to force you away? But at that point, there's only three of those in the game (Artist, Knight, Skull Merchant) and none of them are designed to do that, it's a flaw in their kit.
Maybe it'd be constructive to ask for a list of the killers you think epitomise this 'unfun design', if you're willing?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651626#Comment_3651626
They aren’t the end all be all obviously, but I see the same thing happening when I watch DBD streamers. Unless they are playing blight, they have to use some form of camping/tunneling to win. During his infamous streaks, Otz directly said he was tunneling and camping people whenever possible. What’s more likely: me and the professional streamers lack game sense, or that there is a balance problem?
I dislike grim embrace even more than pain res. 12 second blocking isn’t impactful and spreading hooks is not the optimal way to play. I tested out various builds with it, and then I took it off. I always had more success by, again, camping and tunneling. There’s no reason to run grim embrace because it’s counter to the effective strategy.
I could point to streamers/youtubers that are quite skilled and don't tunnel and camp, for the record, it's cherrypicking either way. I would also like to point out, independent of that fact, Otz would've been tunnelling and camping because he was doing winstreaks where the entire point is minimise even the slightest potential of losing.
In a regular game, without that extreme incentive, you don't need to be 100% optimal all the time to stand a decent chance of winning, especially considering you and I stand a very small statistical chance of being in Otz's skill range.
Spreading hooks becomes much stronger when you buy yourself time to do it well and make a few mistakes. Time like, for instance, what you'd get when there's no generator progress being made at all for twelve seconds.
Also, it mustn't be breezed past that there's a difference between "not optimal" and "weak". Spreading hooks is very efficient and strong if you have good macro gameplay, it's only strictly weaker than tunnelling because of how hard to punish tunnelling is.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651541#Comment_3651541
- It is because you have to rely on your teammates more than any other killer to not do stupid stuff otherwise it harms the person being chased and you want to do everythhing to avoid that. It would help considering most people want a convenient tutorial of how to face killers with ALL the strategies you can counter them with instead of a video where there's a lot of words but little examples as to how it actually works.
- Being hindered is not equivalent to looping a Clown. It's equivalent to looping a clown who has used his power on you (minus the hindered difference). It's also important to note that Clown's ability cannot deep wound you and he cannot get haste. You cannot play the loop because your worst case scenario is actually the common case scenario.
- Yep.
- Relying on bloodlust as a 4.6 m/s killer doesn't really equate to a win for the survivor. 15 seconds of just chasing someone W keying away gets you bloodlust and makes you a 4.8 m/s killer. This allows you to zone survivors more easily and place more effective drones in strategic location (since you get there faster and survivors don't have time to respond), forcing a hit to remove bloodlust or focing a hit so they don't get injured by a drone. If someone is W keying away so effectively from a killer that fast, I think bad mindgames are the root of the cause. You can use the resources as you wish, but a SM would generally want you to drop since it helps with zoning and gaining tags.
- No other killer feels as repetetive as SM. The only close contenders would be clown or Knight but they are also pretty much hated because of the same issue.
- Positioning a drone and revolving your playstyle around the drone's beam does take a bit of skill indeed but every killer has to mindgame. If you're good with mindgames on any other killer, you'll probably be good at Skull Merchant. Killers don't have to learn anything new, just utilize what they know under new circumstances. Mindgaming is a skill in itself, but I'd argue that placing a drone doesn't really take as much skill as I assume you think. Even bad positioning can get you a tag or two. You also can't just crouch walk unless you made decent distance otherwise it's a free hit or it ruins the momentum. It poses the question whether it's better to risk the hit and gain distance or risk getting scanned whilst avoiding the hit which could mess you up more.
- Using undetectable during chase is when it's most effective in my opinion. That's because I mainly rely on the red stain to help with looping and most SM know this is the same for many others and activate it at specific loops. That's why I personally don't associate undetectable with her stealth plays and, therefore, get surprised and whatever. I understand that her stealth has huge potential but I'm probably too busy looking at my flashbang progress to take that into account half the time lmao.
1: Is it more than any other killer, though? If a teammate makes a dumb decision and gets scanned by a drone, you have to face a Merchant with extra 3% Haste for 12 seconds. That's not nothing and I don't want to downplay it, but I don't feel like it's worse than, for instance:
- Teammates granting Myers a ton of stalk for free early on, leading to you getting instadowned or Tombstone mori'd
- Teammates giving Oni his power early, leading to you getting instadowned
- Teammates cleansing incessantly against Plague, leading to you getting chased with Corrupt Purge active
- Teammates grouping up against Legion, leading to you getting downed by the fourth Feral Slash
I feel like it's being overblown how much you're dependant on your teammates not to mess up for your chase not to be messed with too. They're obviously messing up their own next chase by a fair amount by giving her free Lock On stacks, but that's separate, almost any killer can be gifted free value by teammate mistakes in that regard.
2: Semantic difference, surely? Looping SM and looping Clown in these examples pretty heavily that they're using their powers. Every time you're scanned while claw trapped, you get inflicted with a 10% Hindered for 6 seconds. Every time you get hit by the Afterpiece Tonic, you get inflicted with a 15% Hindered for however long it takes you to leave the cloud + 2 seconds afterwards. Comparable to one another, with the main difference being that Clown has stronger Hindered for probably on average less time... in exchange for his Haste, which he does have, also being stronger. Merchant gets 3%, he gets 10%.
Even under those conditions, you can loop Clown. You just have to play around dropped pallets more, which since Skull Merchant doesn't have basekit pallet-break any more, is how you'd play around hers too.
3: Gonna address the fourth point here and just eliminate the dead entry, lol. So, this point loops back around to that question I posed before - if a Skull Merchant is patiently building Bloodlust by just dropping drones at loops to zone you away, scanning you once per loop (if she's lucky) until she actually gets something from it... is that faster than brute forcing the loop with good mindgames to get the injure much sooner?
I'd say it isn't. While I wouldn't mind something to stop her building Bloodlust while benefiting from scans, I also don't think her current position really rewards her for doing it too much. It's a war of attrition she won't win because generator progress is completely unhindered while she takes longer to down a survivor. You could make the argument it's kinda boring, but see again the point about Knight and Artist: They do this exact same thing but better (in that their threat is immediate, whereas you have time to reposition when SM does it), and while they get complaints, it's nowhere near as extreme and vitriolic as what Skull Merchant gets.
4: This heavily depends on what she's doing, to be fair. The worst case scenario for repetitiveness for Merchant is her just dropping drones at loops and never doing anything else, which as I said - puts her with Knight and Artist when they do the same thing. I am fully on board for finding this boring, but I do object to people asserting that it's all Merchant does and I question very heavily why she's being singled out for such a hostile response when she's the least objectionable of the killers that do this.
If she's not doing that, she's not any more repetitive than any other killer. There's variety in gameplay between avoiding preset drones, hacking drones outside of chase, and keeping an eye out for her stealth.
5: When I talk about her skill, I am talking about her played properly rather than just dropping drones at a loop. Since that's a low effort but also relatively low reward playstyle, I think it's fair to talk about her playing more as intended- leveraging the drones as traps, utilising her stealth, even playing around Claw Traps where applicable.
This kind of play for Merchant requires a lot of knowledge about where the traps should go, how to zone (the basekit term, not the power term) survivors into them, and how to capitalise on it without spending so much time you'd be faster just going for a regular M1.
6: Don't think there's much more to discuss on this point, sounds like we mostly agree her stealth is good but not problematic(?)
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651611#Comment_3651611
Well I disagree. Back when those perks were meta, I was able to take way more chases. Now I have to camp/tunnel. I didn’t magically get worse at the game. I’m not sure what you’re seeing. Gens regressing, at a fast rate, without having to kick them was incredibly powerful. Compare that to pain res, which only works once per survivor, is attached to rng, and doesn’t even tell you which gen is being worked on. Even in the worst scenarios, old Ruin provided more consistent value and slowdown.
If you're not able to take chases and have to camp and tunnel in the current state of the game, there's something wrong with your macro gameplay. If you're bringing the strong tools and you're making sure to occupy multiple survivors at once (etc etc, I'm assuming I don't have to explain macro gameplay), the slowdown meta is considerably stronger than before.
Even if you don't like Pain Res, even if you want passive slowdown, there's so many strong options. Deadlock and Grim Embrace, for instance, are very powerful stall tools that don't require you to go out of your way, if what you liked was the passive nature of Ruin.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651562#Comment_3651562
Why not use Discord (or any other platform) though, if you're playing with your friends anyway? I'm not against adding it for custom games but I don't see the use in that.
Because it's proximity chat, which is a fun novelty. Discord doesn't give you the fade-out of leaving range, or the tension of calling out to see if someone's even in range to hear, etcetera.
It'd be minor, but there'd be some use for it where there wouldn't be in regular games.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651578#Comment_3651578
Old pop was a flat percentage taken off of a gen (i forget the exact number, I think it was 25%). You could get a gen that was just started to 0. In the same scenario now, you are only taking 25% of however much progress the gen has, which is insignificant if the gen doesn’t have much progress. That’s also not mentioning the fact that you used to have a full minute to use pop after a hook.
Old Ruin (both versions) was a good design imo because it incentivized killers to not camp/tunnel, and instead to patrol gens and push survivors off, all the while taking progress off of gens. It could of course also be cleansed/paired with undying to incentivize survivors to do more than hyperfocus on completing gens.
For the 100th time, I’m not sure how you can look at the current regression meta and say that it’s better than what I just described. In addition to being stronger, I think the old setup encouraged more fun and healthier gameplay.
That's just running down why those perks are weaker.
The current regression meta is just flat stronger as long as you use the currently very strong perks. Even looking just at regression (which is a mistake since other forms of gen defence are also stronger now), you've got Pain Res, Eruption (depending on killer), Surge (depending on map), and of course, still Pop. Even accounting for perks that were changed in 6.1.0, they are proportionately stronger than before that patch-- take Surge. It's always had a number of 8%, but it's now 8% of 90 instead of 8% of 80. Even disregarding the cooldown buff, it's just stronger than it used to be. Eruption retained its % buff from 6.1.0 so it's better off for actual regression, and Pain Res was reworked to provide stronger regression after that patch.
Add in the other forms of gen defence for the overall slowdown meta, and it's just stronger than before, there's no competition. Ruin/Pop might've been healthier, but it was weaker.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651578#Comment_3651578
Legitimate question: What was actually stronger about the old Pop/Ruin meta when the % damage was proportionally lower and there were fewer options for getting it?
Time.
Have you ever heard that Hex: Ruin was a perk used to slow the game down (just a little bit)? Monto said it on many of his killer videos, and it is an extremely accurate description of what that perk did.
The original versions of Ruin were really good perks. Even though it was possible to power through those Hex Skill Checks, most survivors would go on a totem hunt when they saw Ruin was being used. And if you got lucky with your totem spots, that was really, really good for you.
Alone, Hex: Ruin was easily the king of the killer meta back then. But PGTW was the back-up. If survivors don't go on a totem hunt, they had to either power through Ruin or resort to gen-tapping. That makes the progress go slower, giving you a bigger window to intercept and damage that generator with PGTW. Not to mention, the perk will be there if Ruin gets cleansed.
That combination was so helpful that immediately after the Ruin rework some killers got a bit confused as to what they should run and how to approach the game, especially around Green Ranks. Those were some of the easiest trials I ever had as survivor.
I'm pretty sure they're referring to the reworked Ruin prior to 6.1.0, but I could be wrong.
Even so, the time it took for them to find the totem (which, let's be brutally honest, wasn't that much in many games) is now instead time they spend re-doing a generator you've taken comparatively more progress off, or going and doing something else while they wait for the gen-block to wear off. The argument could absolutely be that Ruin/Undying/Pop was healthier, but it can't possibly be that it was stronger.
Compare that to running Pain Res and Pop now. The survivors may not be going and cleansing a totem, but the game's slowed down by more because of how much more gen progress is being regressed with the new tools.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651570#Comment_3651570
I personally think buckle ups effect is fine in itself it’s just not balanced with the ability to instantly heal someone
It's probably fine, I just view it kind of like DMS. It's an effect that's constantly going to threaten to be obnoxious when paired with certain other options.
Still, like I said, just changing FTP would fix the problem.
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I don't think we need another big overhaul to fix these problems, to be fair.
DMS can just be reworked to prevent potential unfun combos- it doesn't have any right now but it's constantly threatening to be obnoxious when paired with things that actually activate it, unlike pairing with Pain Res (I think? I heard the counter might've been undone but I'm not sure) or Grim Embrace. That's one perk rework.
Then the other two on the survivor side, and really, while I'd like to see Buckle Up reworked fully, I think you fix this combo by having For The People no longer count as a healing action. That's one perk change, not even a rework.
That's only two perks needing changes, not a big overhaul.
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Because it won't help solo queue in any meaningful way and definitely won't bridge the gap between them and SWF.
It would be kind of neat as a custom game option, though. Messing around with your friends in a custom game with proximity chat enabled would be really funny, and would allow for streamer/youtube content too.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651476#Comment_3651476
Perfectly fine with a constructive argument.
- I suppose so, but recently I've had a survivor join my lobby with 55 hours on DBD. They had a new Steam account so cross-progression probably wasn't the reason that they got my lobby but I still gave them a chance and, well, they got steamrolled by a Skull Merchant who knew they were the weakest link and tunneled them out of the game after also seeing her Steam profile. Left chase immediately with someone else to go for the new player. I don't know why it's not letting me attach a screenshot. Obviously any killer could have done that but how would a player like that know counterplay that is half the time ineffective and ruins momentum? I think if DBD made a YouTube account or promoted someone that makes videos about counterplay it would drastically help.
- If you don't greed pallets you'll just end up at a unsafe one and the drone will do most of the work. Best a survivor can do is drop the pallet and then just get bloodlusted because they'll be zoned or face the multitude of status effects the drone provides. creating dead zones on big open maps quickly is the easiest way to lose.
- Glad we can see the issue here.
- You can't really play more cautiously if the SM places a drone whilst you're at the unfavorable side of a loop where it's difficult to reach another loop and you're open to getting scanned, although this is more map-dependent (some maps have obstacles that don't even block the beam). You could pre-drop, sure, but bloodlust on a 4.6 m/s killer will allow you to catch up and because the drones take little to no time to place on a loop, you can't really rotate back because it's not inconvenient for a SM to place a drone even at a pre-drop to save themselves the time from breaking.
- Yes they can but that's not the point the OP was trying to make. The repetetive nature of SM games gets enhanced by the repetetive perk usage amongst them. You can't really blame them due to how well the perks synergize with her but the same playstyle with the same perks gets old real fast.
- Getting scanned is bad for you true. Very bad. The worst part is about how easy it is to get scanned three times with little effort from the killer side apart from forcing you to go on the undesirable side of the loop as I mentioned. Haste and hindered is just overkill and it's not something that should be swept aside with the argument to W key away.Because it's random. You basically get eight seconds of Undetectable at will and combining that with at least one aura reading perk allows you to do so effectively. With people not really understanding counterplay or how she even works, this is very effective. It's like having Trail of Torment, minus the highlighted gen to show it's working and with, obviously, a shorter duration. Most survivors don't run Kindred so not being able to see which way SM is going helps her with the plays. It's also more surprising because most only go for one stealth play the entire game which makes it seem less significant to care about.
- Because most Skull Merchants go for one stealth play the entire game, making her stealth aspect seem too insignificant to care about. Players that actually utilize it more see a lot of use out of it. It's like Trail of Torment, you have that one requirement for it to give undetectable, minus the gen aura showing for SM and with a shorter duration of eight seconds. Paired with a singular aura reading perk, it makes it really effective, especially with the random absence of Kindred. It's a little hard to predict sometimes, especially with the lack of callouts on solo queue.
1: I don't disagree with this point, but I also think it's fair to point out that none of this is really a Skull Merchant problem? It's a matchmaking problem, and while more in-depth tutorials and tips from a variety of accessible sources is a good thing on its face, I don't think they'd even really help with this particular issue- nor would the issue be different against other killers.
2: Well, there's a difference between "not greeding" and "predrop to run away", you can still play the loop. Even in the worst case scenario where you're claw trapped and being hindered, it's equivalent to looping a Clown, it depends on the loop and how safe the pallet is. In most scenarios where she only has Haste and is trying to get you on the side of the loop that actually has you scanned, you've got room to actually position before dropping and running away. Even if you find it annoying, it's not particularly stronger or different to similar killers.
3: Just putting 3 for clarity, we agree on this point.
4: I think if a killer is being forced into relying on Bloodlust to get a hit, that's already kind of a win for you. It means her power is almost certainly doing very little, even if she's getting single scans on you. Still, this harkens back to point number two, which is that playing cautious doesn't always mean just running away, it just means being more willing to use the resource you're dancing around. There are loops where you can't do that, but that's where we pull back and ask: Is that actually worse for you against Skull Merchant versus it happening against other killers?
5: Even setting aside that SM's gameplay isn't even that much more repetitive than other killers (even if she's just dropping her drones at a loop to force you to run away, that brings her to the same level of repetitive as other killers doing the same thing), it's still not that relevant. It's not unique, and it's not about her power.
6: I just don't agree with the idea that getting survivors scanned takes no skill. Skull Merchant is, first and foremost, a trap killer; they do require skill to play, it's just a different kind of skill. Assuming the survivors aren't playing worse than bots and getting themselves scanned constantly outside of chase, you have to utilise a lot of positioning and mindgame skill to force them into the drone's beams. Rotating without cooldown does make this easier, but we've already agreed on that being a problem, so I think it's fair to separate that from the overall point. The argument could be made that a Skull Merchant could win a war of attrition by just forcing single scans now and then, but that isn't fast enough for her to not lose, she'd be better off crutching on Bloodlust- and even that wouldn't be enough for her to not probably lose the match. You have to think about it as "how much quicker could she get this injure by not using her power and going for an M1", and if the answer is "not quicker at all", that's because the player knows what they're doing and isn't trying to play passively + let the drones do all the work.
I'd also like to highlight, still on this point, that the counterplay isn't always to hold the W key, that's not how you play against a Skull Merchant that isn't just dropping drones at every loop. There are loops where you can counter the beams with crouch walking, there are loops where the beam can't even get you if you time it right, and then, yeah, there are loops where you just run away. This is the case because the status effects in her kit aren't random, they happen extremely predictably (outside of idiot teammates giving her slight Haste, but still) as a result of a highly visible light show you're both trying to play around.
7: Sure, that is why her stealth can be good, but I don't think it translates to her stealth being a problem that justifies hating her. Even if most Skull Merchants don't use their stealth much, you as a player still know they could and should be keeping an eye out all the same, right?
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651461#Comment_3651461
The STBFL nerf is a big deal because it nerfed it's chase potential while arguably encouraging it's only problematic aspect: it's ability to camp and tunnel better.
M1 Killers, by definition, have longer chases (on average) and aren't necessarily devoid of an M2 attack (Pig and Pinhead are essentially M1 Killers since they use M1 for almost every attacks (add-ons excluded) and their M2 has next to no use in chase damage outside of potential mindgames if the Survivors are decent) and STBFL compensated for that weakness.
But it's not just because M1 Killers benefited from it, it's because it was one of the handful of good chase perks that the powerhouses (Nurse, Blight, Wesker to some extent etc.) couldn't really use as well as the other Killers that don't use M2 for 99% of their attacks. Most powerful perks are made even stronger when used by those Killers but STBFL wasn't.
STBFL was also a way to make bodyblocks riskier and Endurance less punishing (arguably the only soft-counter to FTP+Buckle Up).
The other issue with the nerf is that by removing a way to avoid losing stacks they are essentially encouraging tunnelling and completely ignoring one Survivor (not exactly fun gameplay). This is especially true when it comes to unhooks.
STBFL was always a powerful tool for tunnelling and camping, and it was it's only problematic aspect, and now they weakened it's chase potential but also didn't touch the one problem with the perk. By removing a way to avoid losing stacks, a nearby Killer has NO REASON to not tunnel if the Obsession is the rescuer. The nerf essentially makes the perk worse in chases but barely touches it's camping and tunnelling strength.
Literally all they had to do was deactivate the perk when too close to a hooked Survivor and not work on basekit BT. Everything else about the perk was fine.
There's also the fact that they managed to mess up the nerf by making it so some M2, even if they do no damage, will remove stacks, killing the perk even more (Trickster will lose 2 stacks for each knife hit and Deathslinger will lose stacks just by landing a harpoon even if the Survivor doesn't lose a health state for example, leading to losing 8 stacks in one encounter with the Obsession).
The biggest complaint isn't that the nerf made the perk worse, it's that it made it worse in every aspect except the one it should have been worked on and that it only discourages Killer variety since the stronger Killers never cared that much for it but lots of weaker Killers did use it.
Sure, some of that's a fair complaint, but it's also a very different complaint. People do keep saying very specifically that STBFL especially shined on M1 killers (it didn't, it shone on hybrids that had an M2) and that the nerf is especially damaging to M1 killers (again, not really, only some of them even have a relevant special attack to begin with).
I absolutely, categorically, emphatically disagree that STBFL encourages tunnelling. It doesn't. It just works while you're tunnelling, which isn't even close to the same thing. People are making the choice to tunnel and STBFL is helping, there is absolutely zero pressure to make that choice to begin with. Even if you're nearby and the Obsession is close, that's a choice; do you lose stacks, find someone else, or tunnel? Finding someone else might be throwing the game, but those other two decisions have equal weight.
There is no real encouragement to tunnel in this game other than that it's easy and can't be reliably punished, and I don't think it's helpful or healthy to try and pin the choice on anything other than the player making it.
For the second to last paragraph, I was under this misconception too, but it's not actually messed up. It's just that there is literally only other one perk that works this way, Play With Your Food, which also loses tokens from the same things.
Because most other Obsession perks also require damaging to function, rather than just attacking, I was under the impression only damaging M2s were counted as "special attacks", but that's wrong; individual Trickster knives and Deathslinger's harpoon are special attacks, it's working as intended.
I think it's really dumb and should be changed, but it's not a mistake.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651446#Comment_3651446
- Survivors shouldn't do that if MMR actually worked and new survivors were given game tips on the loading screen to help with counterplay instead of 'use a medkit to heal'.
- Haste is noticeable on a 4.6 m/s killer. Let's just be for real. If 3% was noticeable by MfT on survivors, then it'll be even more impactful on a fast killer. Picture you running a loop, certain you can greed another one but suddenly that "small" haste gain messed up the momentum entirely. Really bad justification lmao.
- You don't typically have to base your looping pattern on a drone beam that can be manipulated to be spun clockwise and counterclockwise and therefore have to look around more frequently to not get scanned or M1'd.
- You can't just look at the HUD whilst in chase against a anti-loop killer and calculate the amount of haste she has. Multi-tasking only makes you a more vulnerable target. Even if you see you have two tags, realistically what are you going to do?
- They are explaining how the perks make games more tedious when playing against her should be more than enough. You're strawmanning.
- She has basically every status effect that CAN trigger basekit. Killers needing add-ons for ONE/TWO is not comparable to basekit effects. Skull Merchants can utilize their add-on slots to greater effect because of this. Bad argument, again.
- Her unpredictable stealth is why she has decent stealth. Go up against any other stealth killer and you're always expecting them unlike Skull Merchant, therefore providing better stealth plays. She definitely doesn't have the best stealth though.
You're justifications sound pretty bad, sorry. It's either lack of knowledge, skill, or just ignoring how biased you are.
I'll take a crack at these, if you don't mind.
1: Massive amount of faith being put in an algorithm, here. No matter how well the MMR gives you evenly matched games, you're still going to get idiots who don't know what they're doing in specific matchups. That's unavoidable. However, I agree that the loading screen tips should be a lot better and I'd also suggest that better in-game tutorials and explanations would be good outside of the loading screen too.
2: I feel like the obvious answer is that you just don't greed loops that hard against Skull Merchant? It's not substantially different to other killers that can either slow you down, speed themselves up, or otherwise hit you over pallets.
3: Won't contest this one, there should really be a cooldown between rotations. Annoying part of her kit, worth mentioning- though obviously not justification for how hated she is, of course.
4: If you see you've just been tagged (which doesn't even require looking at the HUD) you play more cautiously. Don't greed loops against a killer you know can punish it, this doesn't just apply to Skull Merchant.
5: That's still irrelevant information. Any killer can bring 3-4 slowdowns, and it's obnoxious on almost all of them. It is worth contesting that as something that makes Skull Merchant specifically this hated.
6: While her kit does have a lot of individual status effects in it, they're very condensed into intuitive and understandable sets. She's stealthy, and getting scanned is bad for you specifically because it makes looping her harder. The argument that it's bloated and hard to understand doesn't really hold water, because it all makes a lot of sense. Sure, if you want to understand every nuance there's a lot to keep in mind, but for the average player all they really need to know is that getting scanned makes you vulnerable, and that not hearing a terror radius doesn't mean you're safe.
7: Not sure I understand this one. Why wouldn't you always be keeping an eye out and expecting her when you know she's pretty decent at stealth? Genuine question, I'd appreciate elaboration so I better understand the argument.
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@Azulra said:
Grim Embrace by itself is fine because the 4th hook block is designed to be a special reward for going after everyone instead of immediately tunneling someone out and the 12 second gen blocks is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed is DMS being able to proc on it. After that it'd be in a perfectly fine state in my personal opinion.
DMS doesn't proc if the survivors counter it, and doing so is very easy.
I really don't want my solo queue teammates to think they have to let DMS proc more than the killer forces it to because of this enduring misconception...
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I still don't understand why everyone acts like A: STBFL was especially useful on M1 killers compared to others and B: the nerf it received actually affected those killers more than others.
M1 killers, definitionally, didn't have a way to preserve stacks before, so they won't actually notice the stack-loss nerf. They'll only notice the slight number nerf, which isn't that big of a deal. If anything, it's actually more useful on those killers now, because you're no longer comparing its use on them to its use on killers that could damage without an M1.
To the overall point, there's a pretty massive glaring flaw in the premise and a few smaller flaws with some specific reasoning. The massive flaw is that killer perk variety is pretty damn good now and that stacking gen defence over everything else is a choice, not a necessity forced on you by the MMR system or overall perk changes.
The only other thing I'd want to highlight is that chase + info perks are both pretty good overall right now, not even counting individual utility perks like how Agitation has always been good and stealth perks have been buffed pretty noticeably. Even some of the ones you listed are pretty good- Enduring is a very nice pick on its own and very strong when paired with Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength is a nice perk that affects your overall downtime more than any one chase, and Dissolution is just kinda finicky, not bad.
As an aside, Fire Up does actually have a reason to bring it, but I'll grant it's pretty niche. If you're facing a flashlight squad and don't want to stop them from trying to blind you by bringing Lightborn, bringing Fire Up will mess with their timing because it affects pick up speeds. Not much, I'm not really arguing with it being on your list, I just like spreading the good word on that front lol
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651371#Comment_3651371
read it again I made some edits to the first one already and made it more obvious for people who don't know the numbers
yeah but doing it before a chase then being chased over there makes no difference because she isn't slowed at all recalling it and then replacing it and you still can't even use the loop
it might not be unique to her but she attracts that kind of player very often so yes this one is more player dependent
still waiting for refutes on any of the other ones sir no rational reason to dislike skull merchant
Gotcha. The edits make it more clear what you meant, that's more fair. I'd point out that your teammates messing up and playing into most killer's powers will screw you over, and there are a few that do it in ways that directly affect you in chase (Plague being a big example), it's only fair to acknowledge SM isn't unique in this regard.
To the recalled drone: Yes, but she still is forced into just making you leave that loop instead of you running into a drone and being scanned. You're directly making her noticeably weaker by hacking drones and forcing her to replace them.
To the builds: We are going to have to agree to disagree, I seriously don't think SM is more likely to run ultra-slowdown builds than other killers. It's very common.
To your last point: Never said there's no rational reason to dislike her. In fact, I made sure to say the opposite! It's perfectly reasonable to dislike playing against her, we all have killers we don't like facing. There's no rational reason to be as intense about hating her as people have been, though. She isn't substantially worse than the average killer in any way now, beyond maybe her walk cycle. I don't much care for that either.
There's no difference between disliking Skull Merchant and disliking, say, Artist, or Clown, or Legion, or any other perfectly fine killer with annoying elements.
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@bjorksnas said:
Tags being permanent until you get 3 or get hooked, so accidents leave the skull merchant with free haste which can mess up other peoples chases
Having to look at the ground so you are prepared if you run around a corner into a drone aka annoying camera manipulation because you need to focus on multiple things at once in a chase so looking back / forward / around is annoying while being chased
Her stealth being outright stronger / better than any other killers stealth in the game since she has no lullaby / footsteps / breathing / gnawing / transition out of stealth like any other stealth killer or killer who has even partial stealth in their power
Haste throwing off muscle memory for looping, hindered just isn't fun and as a secondary part of a power even less fun especially while they killer gets haste at the same time
She also just throws every status under the sun at you, deep wound, broken, hindered, while getting haste and undetectable not even counting perks and addons she has 5 status effects built in all of which are annoying
Recalling hacked drones so disabling them doesn't even make a loop safe
Then on top of that most every skull merchant throws on 3~4 slowdown perks and just makes the game a slog because either they miss chess merchant or want to mimic how someone used to play chess merchant, and the reason I say 3~4 is sometimes they take off 1 slowdown for sloppy butcher instead because whats more fun than 5 status effects... 7 status effects (I don't call sloppy slowdown because its indirect) or just 1 addon slot for 7 status effects
This is most of it but its just not fun and most skull merchants don't ever play in a fun way since theres really no way to be able to and win so its always just a bad experience built in then they get to do even more if they feel like it
Worth mentioning that I think your first point is a misconception? She doesn't get haste for someone having a tag for Lock On, she gets haste from survivors being on her radar, and that only lasts for a few seconds.
Recalling hacked drones also does mean hacking them makes a loop safe because she has to go back there to replace it.
I'd also probably highlight that 3-4 slowdown perks is obnoxious on any killer and also very common on any killer, so that's not unique to her.
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It's leftover from when she was actually a problem, AND, when she was actually a problem people had a very very bad habit of conflating her problematic issue with literally anything else they happened to dislike.
None of it is rational, at this point. That's not to say you're inherently irrational if you just dislike her, like, in the normal way, but if you're still on the intense hate train there's no justification for it anymore.
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@Xernoton said:
The devs are always slow when it comes to such things. Remember how long it took them to nerf MfT? I guess they still try to give it time and see if it won't up like UW where in a few months nobody will talk about it anymore.
Though I must say, that it's pretty obvious that Grim Embrace + DMS can't be very healthy. The gens block and it leaves survivors in a pretty awkward situation like with 6.1.0 Eruption where they can't really do anything.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651349#Comment_3651349
How do you figure? It's the same counterplay that Eruption had back in 6.1.0. You need to wait a completely arbitrary amount of time and stop repairing the gen. So this combination slows the game even if you counter it. You stop repairing the gen before the hook happens to counter DMS. But now you also can't repair the gen again because if you do it will first be blocked for 12 seconds by Grim Embrace, which causes you to let go of the gen and trigger DMS regardless.
Basically you need to stop repairing before the hook, then wait for Grim Embrace to pass and then you can work on it again until the killer gets to you and makes you trigger the rest of DMS regardless. So even if it doesn't work, it still works because you waste so much doing nothing in order to prevent DMS from activating.
You can see the start of the hook animation through walls, and since DMS doesn't activate until the end of the hook animation + Grim Embrace doesn't activate until the killer walks away, there's an extremely reasonable period of time for you to keep an eye out, react, and avoid the synergy completely. Like I said, exactly like old Pain Res and DMS.
What you're describing isn't the counterplay to old Eruption btw, there was no counterplay to old Eruption.
Also worth mentioning that even if this combo did work the survivors could just move to another gen, it's literally just DMS after the hypothetical combo activates.
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It's a no-brainer that it doesn't work with DMS. The two perks only have synergy if you, the player, aren't paying attention to when your team gets hooked. It's exactly like old Pain Res and DMS, you let go of the gen as the hook happens and DMS doesn't activate.
As for whether it's clearly too strong on its own... I think it's a little premature to make that argument, we haven't really had it for that long yet. My gut says it's probably fine but mildly annoying on its own + more annoying with other stall tools added, but I don't know that nerfing Grim Embrace specifically is the right fix for that.
I don't want builds to be mechanically restricted but considering how often we seem to come across this problem, maybe they should be for the game's health...