jesterkind
jesterkind
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In terms of very strong effects that people constantly downplay (and to give a different answer, someone else already mentioned Light-Footed which is deeply underrated), I'm gonna pick Lucky Break.
I see that perk fairly consistently in those "bad perks that need a rework" lists people like to do from time to time, which is insane because it's far and away the strongest stealth perk in the game and one of the strongest perks period. It's largely underrated because it requires some thought to use, I think, people generally don't like "needing" to bring other perks to unlock something's potential and that's where Lucky Break sits.
Bring it with an Exhaustion perk (especially Overcome), breaking chase gets super easy. Bring those two with Bite The Bullet and a reliable method of self healing, it becomes broken. Even on its own, the value is pretty easy to see and not that difficult to achieve.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658497#Comment_3658497
So let's take clowns power but when you throw a bottle it has about 4 times the aoe, stays permanently until removed by a mini game (automatically reactivates itself shorty after), grants undetectable every time he throws one, gives global tracking on anyone that enters, causes a myriad of other assorted status effects, oh and injures without him actually hitting you.
Yea I can totally see the comparison.
In order to make that comparison, the cloud of gas would have to only have a few portions of it that actually inflicts the slow, and the numbers would have to be tweaked down.
I've never understood why people say things like "Clown's bottle doesn't cover the whole loop", it's irrelevant for two reasons. One, Skull Merchant's drone doesn't either, only the beam actually matters and that's much smaller. Two, Clown's gas doesn't need to cover the whole loop because he can just aim it at you directly. You also can't crouch or stand still to avoid being slowed by Clown's gas.
Clown is a good comparison, in my opinion, not just because his power works similarly-but-stronger in chase but also because it's relevant to point out that if you can loop Clown, you can loop Merchant even after you've got a claw trap and you're getting hindered. The counterplay is the same; play around a dropped pallet until they're forced to break it, then make distance.
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@OneAutumnLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659639#Comment_3659639
Boons should be single use tbh, Hexs are high risk high reward, boons are no risk high reward.... its not fair in the slightest more so when you get 4 people running that bs on midwch. .
They're completely different perk types, the only similarity is that they're based around totems.
They're not designed the same way. Boons are zones of moderate buffs that typically encourage being placed close to the action so that you can actually use them, which means that the killer's able to snuff them easier, which means the killer gains slowdown from the boons being re-applied.
Hexes, by contrast, are powerful map-wide effects that the survivors want to go out of their way to remove. You want hex totems as far away from the action as possible, as a very stark contrast to boons.
What works as balancing for one wouldn't necessarily work as balancing for the other.
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Boons are not designed to be single-use, it runs completely contrary to their entire design space and would be a change that actually kills the perk concept. People have a bad habit of saying boons aren't strong enough to be broken basekit, and therefore would need to be buffed, but there's no amount you could buff most of the boons by that'd overcome the fact that they aren't designed to be destroyed this way.
Shattered Hope is stupid, because you shouldn't be able to do that at all and because you can't guarantee a team actually has any boons. The answer to that is not to make it basekit, it's to either fully rework it or give it some effect when there aren't any boons in play.
Destroying your own hexes is a VERY bad idea. On-demand Haunted Grounds and Pentimento would be miserable to go against.
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It isn't in its PTB state, but it could easily be tweaked to be.
Others have recommended it too, but if it worked like a BNP for all generators, that'd be worth the time investment and penalty, especially with multiple survivors speeding it up.
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They didn't kill her main feature. They didn't even touch her main feature, really, it'd be very lightly affected by this change.
Her main feature is slowdown, not head pops.
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Couple reasons why you'd pick other info perks, at least in my opinion.
For starters, auras are a much stronger form of information that screams. For BBQ specifically, it's also much more passive than Ultimate Weapon, since it doesn't require you to go out of your way at all.
There's also a lot of perks that give you less information, but far more relevant information. Discordance, for example, isn't on-demand but gives information that you're always going to want to know about when it happens. Gearhead gives information on which gens are being worked on, and has the added benefit of chewing through Distortion stacks pretty aggressively.
The biggest reason, at least for me, is that most other info perks don't also tell the survivors you know where they are. Ultimate Weapon is one of the most over-hyped perks in the game; it gives the weakest form of information (tied with loud noise notifications), it tells the survivors you have it, it has anti-synergy with stealth, it requires going out of your way to go search lockers, and it has an annoying dual-cooldown system. Individually none of those things are perk-killers, but together? I'd much rather use something else.
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@WishIcouldmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657772#Comment_3657772
What I meant was, that in the same way that the Dredge came into existence because of dark thoughts and fear, that the unknown was able to come into existence the same way.
I know, my answer stands. I don't think we're supposed to know either way.
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Near as I can tell, the point of the Unknown's presentation in general is that there's no cohesive understanding you can come to.
Like how the lore is from someone else's perspective entirely, and the addons all referencing contradictory theories as to what it could be. I don't think you're supposed to be able to say conclusively if it has the same background as Dredge or any other killer.
(I think this is very cool so I hope it's intended to be like that)
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Only if you let it.
The actual list of viable perks, in my opinion, probably hasn't ever been higher. I can't speak for when the game released, I wasn't playing back then, but I have been playing for about four years-ish, and perk viability has skyrocketed since then.
You can definitely run gen-kick perks, if they aren't regression perks you're probably not even gonna notice the anti 3-gen system. Hell, since that feature went live, I've only even seen the warning spikes once, and that was a match where my only gen perk was Pain Res.
(It was a Trapper match the team was badly losing, and I was trying to give them a break by peeling off to kick generators constantly, lmao)
Plus all the other perks that aren't gen-related that are perfectly good. Stealth is in the best place it's been, perk-wise, to pick just one example. Plenty of good chase perks, plenty of good info perks (it's a bit of a misconception that Distortion hard counters all aura reading; there are a few aura perks that counter Distortion by chewing through its stacks super fast, to say nothing of the perks that aren't aura reading), then whatever perks your specific killer can utilise well.
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Logically, I know it's not that strong and any good killer can guarantee a hit there pretty quickly...
...However, I can never remember what I'm supposed to do mid-match and it always succeeds in wasting time in chase, lol. Couple killers I play have tricks to shut them down, at least.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656387#Comment_3656387
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on most of your points, especially about your balance points. There is definitely way more nuance than I implied in my last post, I'm not the best at clearly conveying my thoughts sometimes.
To the point of her trap lethality, I think we just fundamentally disagree, which is totally fine, at the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference. I just can't imagine that lethality was not intended when add-ons like Tampered Timer have been in the game for 6 years now (I know it got tweaked at one point, but left in the game regardless). That add-on is practically only for the purpose of adding more lethality to her traps, nothing else.
I think where I'm getting frustrated with these patch notes is that seeing a killer like Huntress get basekit buffs for objectively strong add-ons that are in my mind absolutely not necessary and will add to her lethality a very considerable amount, while poor Pig is still crouch walking slower than survivors and the ambush just got basekit yellow and brown add on buffs, it doesn't really change much. Better? For sure, absolutely, but I don't think it's enough to justify touching her traps.
It's fair for us to disagree, of course, I'm always happy to drop a topic with a respectful disagreement- but if you wouldn't mind hearing me out, I do have a slight gripe with the way the Tampered Timer is invoked here.
Even if we were to assume its only purpose is to flat increase lethality (which I'm on the fence about, there are other ways to interpret it), that doesn't necessarily mean that Pig's power is designed that way overall. It could be an addon designed to add that element to her kit where it didn't meaningfully exist before... or it could just be a flat out badly designed addon.
Iridescent Head and Pinky Finger weren't changed for years, after all. Tombstone Piece is still in the game. Addons existing doesn't automatically mean they're healthy, well designed, or cohesive with what the power is actually supposed to do basekit.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656290#Comment_3656290
I see your points but I still have contention with them.
- I'm not assuming that everyone who disagrees with me doesnt have comparable hours to me on Pig. I'm assuming that the players that have mained her for years and have solely dedicated hours and hours to learning and playing her have a better understanding of her than your average DbD player. I also have my own opinions on this change and agree with the Pig mains that this is entirely unnecessary.
- I totally get that, but if you're going to argue that the commentator that's not on top-player level has a higher degree of knowledge than the actual top-level player than we just disagree.
- I think your whole point in this debate has centered around the point you seem to make about pigs traps not being meant to kill survivors, and I think that this is completely subjective and just outright not true. As Undead Jester pointed out, if the traps weren't meant to have lethality than why are over half her add-ons trap lethality based?
- Why in the world does Pig deserve to be nerfed on any level and not outright buffed when killers like Huntress in the very same patch are receiving outright buffs, no nerfs? She's stronger, played more, and outlines a balance design issue with the developers.
1: Slight correction: It's not that you're assuming they don't have comparable hours to you, it's that you're assuming only the people who outright say they have hundreds/thousands of hours are that dedicated. You don't know anyone's hourcount, the people you disagree with could have comparable hours to those other players you're seeing talk. Apologies if the italics seem aggressive, they're just for emphasis.
2: That's not the argument, I'm just pointing out that those commentators have comparable knowledge to the actual top tier players. The ability to execute on the knowledge isn't a requirement to have the knowledge to begin with. The people who can physically perform the action don't have knowledge the people can't are incapable of getting. You can have a comparable understanding to a top tier player without being required to perform at that level personally. Mechanical skill and analytical skill are different skillsets.
3: That is how she's designed, yeah. As I said to my esteemed fellow Jester, those addons are both not particularly well designed and, separately, more geared towards increasing the slowdown you get from survivors being pushed towards boxes and you pushing them away. The actual "goal" of the timer reaching zero isn't meant to happen unless the survivors mess up, that's why some of the listed addons have been nerfed whenever they get too good at forcing it to happen reliably.
4: Buffs and nerfs are more versatile tools than just "make thing stronger generally" and "make thing weaker generally". Huntress is getting buffs because the devs feel she's too dependant on certain addons, that much has been stated outright. Pig is getting nerfs alongside her buffs because... well, I can't say with complete confidence, but I think it's because they want forcing head-pops to be less appealing compared to the alternatives and they also want to cover for bad box spreads on certain maps where survivors may get head-popped even though they're taking the right action to prevent it and the killer isn't even really trying to stop them.
Whether you agree with Huntress being buffed at all, there's nuance that goes beyond "This killer is weak, buff them" and "This killer is strong, nerf them". Game balance is rarely so binary. That's why a killer like Pig, who is only middling in terms of strength, could get totally fair and justified nerfs- those nerfs don't actually affect her core gameplay or design, they're not that impactful even when the killer would notice them, and they hem in some unfair edge cases with RNG. The fact that those slight and mostly-healthy nerfs come alongside noticeable and welcome buffs is good, mind you, I'm very glad they did it that way. It's just not inherently a bad thing for them to exist just because "Pig is weak (ish), ergo, she should never be nerfed in any way".
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656243#Comment_3656243
I worded that poorly, so for that I'm sorry. I don't doubt that you or others play Pig, but my point was more so that there are multiple people on this thread and others with thousands of hours solely in Pig and I think it's a little silly to be telling them that they're overreacting when they have way more experience with her than anybody else. I've seen this happen with dozens of trapper players as well.
And I'd disagree with hour count not equating to knowing what you're talking about. If you have thousands of hours on a weaker, niche killer I'd say you have way more of an understanding of her and her power than someone that just plays her rotationally or plays against her. This argument kind of reads to me like a your local dad trying to diagnose you because he thinks he knows as much as the doctor does. I understand your argument about the traps not being meant to kill anyone but when you have all the mains telling you that this is a harder nerf to her than the ambush changes were a buff, I think it's silly to argue that.
You're still assuming two things, though.
You're assuming that everyone who disagrees with you isn't someone with comparable hours on Pig, and you're assuming that having a high hourcount means you understand game design inherently and unavoidably better than someone with less hours.
For the first, it's just an assumption without basis. For the second, it's forgetting that skill at playing a video game and skill at analysing a video game are different skillsets. There's overlap, but not every commentator/analyst is a top-level player of the game they're associated with for that reason.
Don't get blinded by seeing a big number in an area that's only mostly related. Pay attention to the arguments themselves and how much they hold water.
EDIT: forgot to mention that people who otherwise know what they're talking about are 100% capable of overreacting in the moment, too.
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@Nebula said:
I can't get over the fact that there's so many people in this thread that are trying to justify nerfs to a weak killer that they don't even play when the Pig mains with thousands of hours are saying that this is directly a nerf to her power. Holy DbD.
It's a bit silly to assume everyone who disagrees with you doesn't play the killer being discussed.
The arguments in favour of this being a massive direct nerf to her main value are shaky and unconvincing regardless of who they come from, too. Hourcount doesn't guarantee that you know what you're talking about in general.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3655628#Comment_3655628
There is a problem.
The problem is she has a wasted power slot where something else effective could go. You could play ghostface and do 10 times better. But I'm not gonna sit here and go over the TTK numbers again between the two been there done that explanation. It was depressing years ago, its still depressing now. I shouldn't have to explain pressure flow and psychology and TTK anymore as long as this games been around. Nor should I have to explain the flaw behind the idea that a thing doing nothing is magically doing something because we imagine its doing something. Time is still time. But yall have fun with the nerfs to an abomination of the SAW franchise.
These mf's really took the SAW out of pig I can't believe it....
What on earth are you talking about?
The entire reason the timer nerf doesn't matter is because it doesn't affect the main point of value of Pig's RBTs. Thirty extra seconds on the timer just gives more time for survivors to be off generators and searching boxes, it isn't so much of a nerf that they can safely ignore traps or anything.
As I said in the post you quoted. Pig's stealth/chase got slightly better, the main value of her traps doesn't change, and some slight edge cases were shored up in a way that shouldn't matter too much in most games. You'll forgive me for not being too upset about this outcome.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653575#Comment_3653575
Literally nobody camps people on boxes with head traps except trolls. The timer stops when you do that and at the point you have them cornered like that assuming survivors haven't 99%'d all the gens by that time you could have just hooked them and stopped messing around.
All this did was make her lunge better....which really didn't need it and made the actual head pops impossible to get unless the survivor just stands there AFK. Which isn't as fun. At this point with all the box nerfs they may as well remove it because it doesn't do anything but act as a set piece decoration. Which is....pretty boring ngl. No threat to it. I go back to sleep now.
If nobody does the only thing that would be affected by the timer nerf, we're golden, there's no problem.
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Absolutely.
It's harder, obviously, but basekit slowdown is definitely strong enough to get the job done if your skills are sharp enough to keep the pressure up. I'll say that if you don't get 12 hooks it's far more likely because of how you win, not because of how you lose - a lot of matches snowball, or have people sacrificed on first/second hook in the endgame, etc.
But if we're assuming "12 hooks" as a stand in for a good honest 4k, yes, absolutely.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654565#Comment_3654565
I've always appreciated your argumentation friend, but on this one I have to hard disagree.
Tampered Timer and Rules Set No.2 are not slouch add-ons. We've had scores of people talk about how 4 box traps can easily get you killed, and thats why the 30s increase is needed, and these add-ons absolutely exacerbate that problem. They directly increase your chance of not having enough time to get your trap off. That is obvious and not debatable.
The Gears add-ons add 3s and ~1.7s per box, that means across 4 boxes you're adding 4.7s per box with both add-ons, or an upper bound of 18.8s total. That isn't as high as Tampered Timer with its 20s, so why are they good? Because they allow the Pig more time to interrupt... but apparently we want yo stop that...
I never said the bottom add-ons were good. Decent players can still hit the skillchecks, so the add-ons suck. However the design is that missing a skillcheck means the Pig gets a Notification and again, can interrupt.
The Deep wound directly stops you from removing your head trap, because you're bleeding out, which means it costs you time.
The point of my argument is all of Pigs design up to this point has been for her to patrol and interrupt survivors, and put pressure on to cause head pops. It's balanced by the fact that if she chases, the timer is paused, so can't just do like an idiot, but all of these add-ons push an idea of interrupting survivors on boxes, and increasing the chance of a head pop.
That is my evidence for why this argument of yours that survivors aren't meant to die to head traps is wrong.
Sorry about the late response, I was distracted by the PTB, lol
So I think a big miscommunication between us is that you seem to think I/this change is in favour of Pig being stopped from interrupting searches, and I don't think that's quite accurate. There's not actually anything in these changes stopping Pig from interrupting boxes, it's just harder to get specifically a head-pop from doing it and you have to utilise a little more tracking skill to try it in the first place.
What I think this change is meant to accomplish is twofold, in that regard. I think it's meant to communicate to Pig players, especially newer ones, that you're not really supposed to be patrolling those boxes as your primary gameplay loop, you're meant to be spreading pressure. The second is that I think it's meant to reinforce that the benefit of interrupting boxes now and then is more slowdown, not a head-pop. Find a survivor on a box, harry them away, go do something else, that survivor is forced to either double back around and risk running into you again or run to another box.
The problem with the increase-urgency addons is that they increase the risk of dying to a head trap. That's exactly why the Tampered Timer + Crate of Gears combination was nerfed, it increased the risk to the point where the survivor couldn't reasonably guarantee staying alive if they dropped everything to go search boxes, which skewed Pig's power massively from a fair slowdown mechanic to an unfair free kill. Now when you run them, it increases urgency, but only to the point where you have much less leeway to do anything else; you're still probably not gonna die unless the Pig hard-focuses you.
This is also why I don't think current Tampered Timer is actually all that good. The slowdown from the Gears addons adds up, even if it's kinda minor, but the Tampered Timer doesn't actually make head-pops reliable (which it shouldn't) nor does it actually change the slowdown numbers at all, it just makes survivors go through their searches quicker without any dallying around which can kind of backfire on you if they only have a few searches to do at all. I'd much rather see this addon reworked to be more cohesive with what her kit actually excels in, at least the Annotated Plan provides some really meagre team pressure to stop gen repairs entirely- and even then it's not good.
The addons existing doesn't mean they're inherently well designed or healthy. Killers have had dumb problematic addons for as long as the game's been out, on and off. Even so, if you were to argue that the playstyle of Pig trying to ambush searches and gain pressure that way is healthy, the fact that it's still extremely doable with those addons and just requires more effort + brainpower would still support my base claim. What a power's designed to do at base can be altered with addons, after all.
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I'm pretty sure that's the idea.
Whatever it is, nobody can figure out where it came from, what it is, or even what it wants. That's why the addons all reference contradictory theories for where it came from; it's the Unknown.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654565#Comment_3654565
Then it would need to be fixed like with Stab Wounds study and Frank’s mixtape.
both of those existed post legion nerf and allowed for a dead playstyle that was just bad.
you can’t have it both way, either make the traps good or bad but don’t have add-ons for a dead playstyle.
also the mental gymnastics are insane, pig doesn’t need nerfs at all what the hell is this.
“But Pig shouldn’t pressure boxes”
stop trying to pigeon hole pig into one playstyle
Sure, if you want. Pig doesn't have particularly amazing addons, I wouldn't be against giving her new effects for these addons. Like I said, they're not very good, I'd love if they were changed to something more directly useful.
Don't know why you think this is a "can't have it both ways" gotcha when my answer is pretty predictable, lol.
I also don't know why you're accusing me of mental gymnastics saying "Pig shouldn't pressure boxes", I've never said that, you should be able to and you'll still be able to after this nerf. The only thing I think should get weaker is aggressively harassing one survivor until they are dead, because any way of doing that in DBD is unhealthy and unpleasant. I don't even think these nerfs really prevent that, though, so that's barely even relevant.
The timer nerf makes sense for the above reason and because there are maps where the timer might not be enough to search four boxes, it's whatever. Minor change, wouldn't have called for it myself but I also don't mind that it's happening. The box aura nerf... eh. I'll test it, but I don't imagine it'll make a huge difference, might be wrong.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654503#Comment_3654503
Not that I'm trying to rubbish your point... but you do realise that by giving survivors more time, you allow them to commit to actions they normally wouldn't be able to?
If it were true survivors weren't meant to die to head traps, can you explain why addons exist to increase her head trap lethality?
- Tampered Timer (-20s active trap time)
- Crate of Gears (-25% box search speed)
- Bag of Gears (-14% box search speed)
- Rules Set No.2 (No auras until on)
- Jigsaw's Annotated Plan (-10s every gen completed)
- Razor Wires (20% smaller skill check size on boxes and injured on failure)
- Interlocking Razor (Missing box skill check cause deep wound on injured survivor)
All of these add-ons consume more of the survivor's time relative to the head trap timer, to varying degrees of success.
Should all of these add-ons be reworked to not interact with any head trap lethality whatsoever, since that isn't the point of head traps?
I mean, none of those addons are all that good except for the two Gears addons, and those addons are good because they increase the slowdown more than because they increase lethality.
The idea of addons that decrease the timer is presumably that a shorter timer would mean more urgency for the survivors, but there's two major things to remember: the first is that the ability to do something with addons doesn't always translate to that thing being necessary, important, or even balanced basekit, and the second is that these addons aren't particularly amazing, you're not giving me a list of Pig's best addons here.
Those addons aren't that amazing specifically because the lethality of the traps isn't really why you bring them, and the time they detract from the timer can't be that strong - Crate of Gears and Tampered Timer was nerfed a while ago to make sure of this, because bringing the old version of those addons with a little extra work made head-pops way too reliable.
Providing more urgency is fine, it's not a bad effect to bring with addons, but the increase of thirty seconds lessening the urgency somewhat doesn't necessarily then become something you'll notice with regular/good Pig gameplay. Hell, if anything, it's more time with traps on which gives more time for other addon effects to work, more time to keep survivors off generators, and in general just more trap slowdown. You almost want the traps on for as long as possible, as long as the survivor doesn't feel too safe working on a generator with one active- which thirty extra seconds shouldn't cause, and if it does, you can capitalise on it. Remember, the change that made the average trap take more searches was a buff because they have the hat on for longer now.
None of this applies to the two bottom addons, those are just flat out bad.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654475#Comment_3654475
She has to pressure gens, people healing or chasing as her chase is still VERY weak so any decent player will loop her for more than 30 seconds in fact a good player has no excuse to not loop pig for less than a minute if thry are not in a deadzone.
Also even now 2.5 minutes is more than enough to get even the 4 box searches off, the only risk being pig interupting you which will be more rare now so I wouldnt worry much about it.
As for pig using tracking perks: just use distortion, its usefull against all killers and with the change of auras for pig it will make all search boxes safe unless you are foolish enough to do it injured, and hey you have 30 extra seconds so you can heal in that time :).
No killer has to pressure gens and most killer players would do a lot better once they realise that. Pig, like every killer, pressures survivors and mostly only uses gens as bait. As for her chase being weak, that is literally what they are buffing on the PTB, so at least confirm the changes aren't enough before doomsaying?
It's meant to be enough to get the searches off, that's the point of her power. Survivors aren't supposed to die to RBTs, they're supposed to willingly trade gen time for the guarantee that they won't die to RBTs. That's the whole point. If this change makes survivors less likely to die to either randomly getting a bad box spread and not having time, or to Pig players who aggressively harass them away from boxes, good. That means the power is working more as intended.
Do I need to point out that there's more ways of tracking survivors than aura perks, and that spending box-search time healing is risky?
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653778#Comment_3653778
Not really, I can literally just use that 1 minute to do gens or heal or do rescues, and then since pig acnnot see boxes anymore I can just take it off without worrying she will interrupt me. Its a win-win for me, I get a minute of objective time and also a safer box search.
Common pig L.
What exactly do you presume the Pig is doing while you're neglecting your trap?
I'd also point out that the Pig doesn't need to see box auras to interrupt you, she just needs to see you. If you neglect your trap for an entire minute, you're giving yourself way less time to actually search multiple boxes, and if the Pig brings any way of tracking you then you're going to be at huge risk of a head pop.
I think a lot of people are assuming that not being able to see the box auras automatically means the Pig is completely incapable of like, basic tracking, or bringing info perks. No, it's just slightly harder. The longer you have a trap, the more time she has to even just stumble across you when she isn't actively looking, let alone find you if she is looking.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654421#Comment_3654421
I've seen the "WoO is not that great"-take before and to me it feels like a somewhat "arrogant" take coming from good players. As a very mediocre player for me WoO makes a huge difference in my performance in chase.
Especially on the newer maps I don't know all possible pallet spawns so WoO helps me a lot, of course more experienced players will know the spawns anyway. Same thing with pathing in chase, good players can loop the Killer and still plan a good path I can't (I remember a situation when my bf watched me play and told me "you could have taken the window there" when I didn't even register the window).
What I'm trying to say is that I think, that good players underestimate the usefulness of WoO, because they don't need it to do well, which isn't necessarily true for weaker players.
I do like some of the perks you mentioned though, overcome for example, but if you're getting tunneled it's a one time use, so in this situation I would get more value from WoO. Alert and troubleshooter are nice aswell, but I would probably get the most value out of them If I combined them with WoO.
Sure, that's why I say it's nice, it's convenient when you have it. I'm not that good either, and I don't know all the pallet spawns by heart- you just don't need WoO to keep an eye on nearby resources between chases.
I'm not bashing anyone that brings WoO, that's not my point. In fact, there being reasons people might want to bring Woo that aren't related to its strength only proves my point, that people will bring perks for reasons other than strength and, therefore, it's only fair to say that the perks people don't bring may very well be perfectly strong.
When someone says "Nobody runs that perk" to dismiss me saying that the perk is good, it becomes relevant that strength isn't always the driving force of pickrate, and Windows is the perfect example. That perk is far and away not the strongest perk in the game, but it does have the highest pickrate. That's for reasons beyond just pure strength... so the inverse is true as well, some perks have a low pickrate for reasons that aren't just a lack of strength.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654413#Comment_3654413
Do you have examples of perks with a lower pickrate than WoO that are better?
I don't have hard numbers on any of the pickrates, but I can definitely name perks better than WoO that aren't on the official top ten list- and everything on that top ten list, too, every perk on that list (save for Self Care, actually) is better than WoO.
But for a couple others, we'd have Botany Knowledge, Overcome, Lucky Break, We'll Make It, Alert, Distortion.
For just aura perks that are stronger, we'd have Alert, Empathy, and Troubleshooter just off the top of my head.
It's not a high bar - any perk that actually does something beneficial is gonna be better than WoO.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653467#Comment_3653467
WoO is a bad perk?
WoO is a "fine" perk. It's nice, it's convenient when you have it, but it offers very little that you can't get without it.
It's not bad by any stretch, but it has the highest pickrate when it isn't even approaching the best in its class, let alone overall. It's a very average-strength aura perk.
My point in invoking it is that there are perks massively stronger than WoO that nobody runs. Pickrate isn't a proxy for strength, because strength isn't the only reason people bring perks.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653876#Comment_3653876
I already responded to that point- if the 30 seconds don’t matter, there was no reason to make the change. Like you can’t have it both ways. If you’re saying 30 seconds isn’t impactful, then why would they change it?
It's not impactful to the killer, because running into it would require you to do something suboptimal, cheesy, and kinda unhealthy for the game.
I'm guessing at why it exists, but I'm assuming it has to do with Pig players very aggressively attempting to force a head-pop, which is what I mean above. Someone above me here also mentioned that it's probably about edge cases on certain maps where you don't actually have enough time to reach all the boxes, and that seems kinda reasonable too.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653850#Comment_3653850
Think about that the other way around: you get your head trap off almost instantly and Pig loses her pressure to rng. I’ve had it happen where everyone gets their trap off fast and she is stuck without a power.
Not since patch 6.0.0 you haven't.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653795#Comment_3653795
There’s no strategy or consistency to that playstyle though. You’re basically just hoping that they don’t get the RBT off early on. It’s better to have control of a zone of the map.
There's no strategy or consistency to empowering killer fundamentals? I'm not sure what you're saying.
You're not really hoping for anything, you're capitalising on the fact that there's a survivor guaranteed to not be on generators. Even if one survivor gets it off first try, the normalising of her RNG means you're guaranteed to get more slowdown off the other traps. If you're trying to harass survivors away from boxes consistently, best case scenario you're splitting your attention away from the other survivors you need to pressure and everyone's just less threatened by you than they could be.
More realistically, you're just giving up generator progress while you're also preventing the traps from actually providing any extra slowdown. How can that survivor's trap be slowing down the game more than if you were chasing them... when you're chasing them?
(The timer nerf also still barely matters, to be clear, we won't be drifting away from that point.)
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653778#Comment_3653778
30 seconds is a very long time in a game where if you are not dropping people, the gens can easily be done in ~3-4 minutes if you are not running multiple gen slowdown perks. And with a chase power that is overridden by every safe pallet and window in DBD, pig is never going to be downing people fast enough to win without tunneling on the large maps if survivors split up.
There is no reason to ever play this character again if these changes go through, not that there was that much of a good reason to play her currently unless you were a SAW fan. You only ever got RBT kills by tunneling or as a reward if you put out so much pressure a survivor has to choose between taking off their trap or saving a teammate. And there's just way better killers for tunneling so it's not like she was even really that good for that
I also don't agree with "You should never get RBT kills that's not what they are there for" like are we watching the same movies? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they are there for
I won't contest that thirty seconds is a long time in this game, but not when contrasted against the entire trial. Thirty seconds more on a timer could just as easily translate to twenty extra seconds off generators searching boxes, depending on the size/shape of the map and anything else that happens in the trial. In general, I just don't see how that at all affects any Pig that isn't going out of their way to try and force head-pops.
If you're playing her to her strengths, it's neutral. It doesn't make a difference, survivors are very rarely getting it down to the wire to begin with.
To the last point: We aren't watching a movie, we're playing a video game.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653748#Comment_3653748
Because the survivor can now just straight up ignore the trap for an entire minute and still survive it? You can search all 4 boxes in 2 minutes as it is. Now you have a full minute of wiggle room, so unless your team is being massacred you have no reason to even start the searches until your trap is active aka just heal and continue to do gens and completely ignore the helmet if it gets you to endgame
In situations where there are 2-3 gens remaining that is a huge loss of pressure since now you can just rush the gens with your helmet on whereas currently at least you are somewhat pressured to remove it before immediately going back to work on gens
I feel like if survivors start ignoring their head traps it actually ends up fantastic for you, honestly.
You're not standing in a corner waiting patiently while their timer ticks down, you're generating pressure. They're putting themselves at extreme risk if they start ignoring traps because of a measly thirty second nerf.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653695#Comment_3653695
If it’s a weak strategy, why does it get me wins? Also, I am putting pressure on multiple survivors and NOT just the one with the trap on.
Weaker, not weak. It's weak compared to actually letting the traps function as slowdown by letting survivors search boxes.
If you're pressuring multiple survivors, why does it matter the timer is thirty seconds longer? If you're letting them function as slowdown and only pressuring away survivors you happen to see while doing other things, why will this affect you? It shouldn't make a difference unless you're going out of your way to try and force a head-pop, and even then you can still do it.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653680#Comment_3653680
I mean you keep saying it’s not a strong strategy, yet I have success with it. The weak version would be straight up tunneling/tracking the survivor wearing the trap, which is not what I do.
I say that because it isn't?
The strength of the RBTs is that they are passive pressure. The usual sweet spot good killers are aiming for, with one on hook, one in chase, one going for the save, and one on generators, is massively empowered when the one on generators actually has to go search a box to avoid dying.
So, when you're ignoring that strength to go harass someone who already has a trap on, in most scenarios you're doing something substantially weaker. The point of Pig is to occupy multiple survivors and not be chasing people who already have hats on, that's purposefully hamstringing your own power for basically no benefit.
@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653641#Comment_3653641
Then again, explain why you would ever play the character over someone else. It's like "oh I used this real dumpy chase power to down someone, now my reward is they have to waste a minute off gens" as opposed to "I just downed this guy so fast it saved me an entire minute of chase"
Literally no difference, other than the fact that one character has a strong chase power and is actually fun to play
See above. The RBTs are passive pressure, not meant to kill survivors outright.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653655#Comment_3653655
No it’s not. If I want an antiloop killer I will pick slinger, huntress, or Spirit. 0 reason to choose pig. Pig was appealing because of slowdown and map control. So once again, even if it’s a playstyle you don’t like, it is still a nerf.
But you still get the slowdown. The slowdown hasn't gone anywhere! It still does the exact same thing, that's the reason that this timer nerf doesn't matter.
The only thing that gets weaker is harassing survivors away from the boxes, both because you can't see the boxes and because the timers are slightly longer. This is both not a very strong strategy and quite an unhealthy one, so it's fine for this to get a little weaker- and it's not even by much.
If you want slowdown, you still have that. That hasn't changed.
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Convincing.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653641#Comment_3653641
I’m not disagreeing about the traps’ purpose. As it is now, I do get an occasional head pop. That will now virtually never happen.
I mean, why? If someone's dying to a head pop, they're massively screwing up. You think thirty seconds is really gonna make that much difference if someone's flat-out ignoring their trap?
The only other time you could possibly get a head pop with Pig is if you're hard-focusing one guy down by harassing them away from boxes, but you can still do that, you just give up more generator progress. Also, good, it's good that one strategy became a little weaker.
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@JudithMorel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653436#Comment_3653436
you are trolling, LOL
Nope.
The only one anyone's even challenged me on is Illumination, the others are just flat out good perks. Not necessarily super strong, but more than useably good.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653614#Comment_3653614
Getting her chase power buffed to be merely terrible from worthless does not make up for the fact nobody will ever die from a RBT again
Why play this character? Even after this "buff" her chase power is still trash. Her stealth is still terrible and clunky. Now the slowdown will never kill anyone unless the team is absolutely falling apart
The one and only reason to play this character is going for RBT kills and this patch removes that
Throw her in the grave with Sadako already, these reworks are terrible. The fact they just nerfed billy because "missing a chainsaw meant nothing" and then now buff huntress so you need to dodge ~seven~ fing hatchets in a row before you get a break in chase is wild and tells you everything you need to know about these devs
I feel like a broken record, here, but people are not supposed to die to RBTs. That is not why you put an RBT on someone, it is not the goal, you aren't supposed to be relying on people dying to RBTs. In a Pig game where everything goes reasonably well and your power is firing on all cylinders, nobody will die to an RBT.
Play a hundred games, if Pig's power is working, nobody will die to an RBT.
That is not what they're for. That isn't the value you're shooting for. I'm going insane, this is what insanity feels like.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653575#Comment_3653575
That’s not how I played her. I would use the information of box location to narrow down where the survivor was able to go, while at the same time defending a gen spread and pushing other survivors off. Now I can’t tell where the boxes are, and the increased time puts less pressure on the survivors. I didn’t play for head pops. I would take current pig over this nonsesnse.
I mean... okay?
She's still getting overall buffed even if a very specific thing you liked to do gets slightly weaker.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653590#Comment_3653590
I get that, but the current MMR system 100% does not match you with players that are similar in skill level. It simply doesn't work like it's supposed to because their definition for going up / down in MMR is not an actual representation of skill, the system is inherently flawed. There's almost always one or two survivors per lobby that have noticeably less skill / hours than the others, they get killed first and the game turns into a 3v1 rather quickly.
While I have also noticed a fair amount of mismatches, I don't think it's fair to state unequivocally that it's because "the system is inherently flawed" and not because they're, y'know, mismatches.
The up/down is the same as it is for basically any game that uses an MMR system, that's just how MMR works. The problem seems to be, based on what BHVR have said in the past, lobby dodging/backfill and loosening of the parameters for quick queue times.
Not to say nothing could improve with the sorting, but a win/loss system is pretty normal.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653421#Comment_3653421
That's no reason to at least not try to match people with similar skill levels.
I mean, yeah, that's why we have an MMR system.
I'm just saying, if its current problems were improved, people might be surprised how often they still get "trash" teammates, from their perspective.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653371#Comment_3653371
No one in this thread is saying that. A very effective playstyle with pig is to put a trap on someone and then pressure them off of boxes so that they get close to a head pop. That isn’t possible anymore, and her “compensation” is a mediocre antiloop dash. At that point, why not just play a good antiloop killer?
It's the only conclusion to saying that the timer nerf in any way affects the viability or strength of her head traps. An increase of the timer on RBTs doesn't change the fact that you're dragging survivors off generators to go search jigsaw boxes, and that's what her power is for.
So, the effective playstyle of Pig - trapping survivors so they're off generators then occupying other survivors with chases, hooks, and their own traps - hasn't changed. Her ability to use stealth and Ambush is getting at least a little bit better. And finally, specifically harassing one guy off a box until they get a head pop got slightly weaker.
This is somehow an overall nerf to Pig? Her main thing doesn't change, her weakest elements get better, and a suboptimal playstyle gets very slightly weaker?
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@Xyvielia said:
There is a very small minority of people who will tell you that Rip, Wake, Gabe, even Renato and Thalita, etc. all had worthwhile perks that are “top tier,” when we’re all well aware these perks are nothing short of completely useless in a 4v1 against the buffed Killer trend you’ll be facing (or rather 3v1 after the first pawn is mercilessly Tunneled to a quick death), all w ‘4K or it’s a loss’ on the brain, driving the match.
Nobody uses this trash and escapes consistently.
Killer mains who hop onto their low MMR Survivor match once in a violet moon will be the first to try to sell you on these perks having any use. No big secret,🤫they don’t want Survivors getting anything useful that may become a threat to them.
I’m no Killer God, hardly even mid; but I hold my own without needing Survivors having weak perks to prevent my matches from menacing encounters vs them.
Is it unfathomable to think that maybe people have good reason for disagreeing with you?
I mean hell, Renato unambiguously and objectively does have a top tier perk, but I'll grant it only became top tier after it was released.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653436#Comment_3653436
Look, i love ideas behind perks but they just have so much downside.
Light-Footed is fun perk but 2 downsides is so much. It should work when you are injured as well or it should not be in cooldown if you are fast vault. 2 downsides is so much for this perk.
Chemical Trap would be fun perk but why killer is seeing it? This just makes this perk garbage on all pallets, except of god ones.
Troubleshooter is pretty meh perk. When you drop pallet, most times killer is breaking it. What i would do with killer's aura when seeing they just breaking it. Scavenger is bad perk but this perk should not be buffed.
Champion of Light is strong perk? But yet, nobody uses it. I stopped use it as well because of long cooldown. It has only one use in chase. His other perks are terrible bad. Dejavu is so much better than his boon perk and his other perk is just so meh. If it was working with full health, i'd use it. But asking you to be injured, it's just so much downside again.
And non of those perks are seeing in trials, i am rarely seeing anyway.
Survivors deserves some decent content because we are still playing with same perks. I am not even asking new meta perk but some new viable perks would so wellcome. But no, BHVR just loves to add too much downsides to this type perks.
Light-Footed has two restrictions because of how powerful its effect is. Silent running is very strong, people underrate how important audio tracking is for killers.
Killers see Chemical Trap so that you can actually play around it. There are a fair number of loops where the killer refusing to break the pallet makes the loop stronger, and Chemical Trap puts them in a lose/lose scenario at those loops. Doesn't have to be a god loop, just a safe one.
Troubleshooter is a good perk because it shows you the killer's aura and lets you avoid running the killer to your teammates in chase.
Champion of Light is a strong perk, yeah. I actually have seen people running it, but that's anecdotal and irrelevant- there's a big difference between "nobody runs this perk" and "this perk is bad".
People gotta stop comparing Illumination to Deja Vu, they have different niches. The boon is a nice support boon for boon builds/Overzealous, and it's nice to see the whole gen spread without downsides like Visionary. Easily the weakest, but still nice. As for Deadline, it is a little hampered by the injured requirement, but the strength is still quite high when it's active.
Whether people run then is wildly different to whether they're good, as evidenced by all the good perks people aren't running and the kinda bad ones people are running, like Windows of Opportunity.
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See, the problem is that the perks you're talking about aren't bad. (Mostly.)
Ellen got Light-Footed, a really strong stealth/chase perk, as well as the reasonably strong and fun to use Chemical Trap. Even Lucky Star, which is a little under-tuned, still does something useful and worthwhile.
Gabriel got the ultra strong MFT, sure, but he also got the strong and useful Troubleshooter. Scavenger less so, sure, but two out of three ain't bad.
Alan Wake launched with one super strong perk, Champion of Light, and then his other two perks are reasonably useful but less strong.
The fact of the matter is that survivors have all released with at least one (but normally two) good strong perks, the content survivors are getting lately is not abysmal. This is a community perception issue, not a game design issue.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653405#Comment_3653405
I guess my whole point is, if it's immaterial, then why do it at all? All this does is limit build diversity for her, for example, Tampered Timer is completely useless now as a purple add-on.
Like I said, I imagine the point is to make it so you don't try and force head-pops on one guy.
As for Tampered Timer being useless now, wasn't it already? Back when it + Crate of Gears were so strong as to be flat out unfair, sure, but now it just improves something that doesn't matter for you. Better to just rework that addon, I think.
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Being matched with teammates in the same skill range as you doesn't automatically mean they'll do what you want, to be fair.
They could be focusing on challenges, adepts, they could be messing around for any reason, they could be drunk, they could be having a bad day...
There's a lot of reasons why you might get frustrated with random teammates that have nothing to do with their skill level.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653387#Comment_3653387
I totally get that head pops should be rare, but they already are. At the very least they should be threatening, which they somewhat were with the 2.5 minute timer. The aura change to jigsaw boxes for Pig was already enough to ensure that they can't as effectively target a single player out, the 30 seconds of extra time are just unnecessary.
It may be unnecessary but it's also immaterial, it isn't going to matter. Survivors already aren't getting just down to the wire on their head trap timers consistently, and the value from traps comes from the time they spend running between boxes, not from how short the timer is.
They are threatening, but only as a threat, not as a reality. The threat pushes survivors to act, and when they act, the threat disappears. That's the point.
The criticism that it's a nothing change that won't matter is an extremely different one to saying that they make head pops rarer.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652914#Comment_3652914
If they aren't already killing people, then what's the point of increasing the timer 30 seconds even after hiding the aura from Pig? This change actually makes zero sense to me. And yes, the timer does matter as it is possible to push them off boxes (intentionally or not) and that extra 30 seconds is easily another box that you can check. All this change does is butcher Tampered Timer and make it next to impossible to get a head pop. But hey, they got to say the meme!
Genuinely, I have no idea. At a guess, I'd assume that they don't want you to be able to hard-focus down one person and harry them away from boxes without losing more gen time? Which would be fairly reasonable, I guess.
Again, people keep saying it'll be "next to impossible to get a head pop" but that's the point. If survivors go search boxes, they won't get their head popped, but they're not on generators. That's the whole purpose of her power.