foodie
foodie
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@DBD78 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407035#Comment_3407035
Her kill rate in high MMR should be so bad after this update. Perhaps Lethal would be a good perk on Hag to see where survivors are not going, and then try to hide traps in that area like Trapper in grass and such, if you get lucky with the map lol
I, for one, am not playing her until she gets a rework and a buff
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@DBD78 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406206#Comment_3406206
Do you see top Hag players using Corrupt much? You can argue it's the worst perk in the game on Hag. The best way is to set up your net, lose 2-3 gens while doing it but then survivors are in big trouble. If they run towards killer and see early that it is Hag..now they can bully her and destroy traps. Against a good team that knows to trigger traps at the edge of where they go off, so Hag can't teleport and immediately hit the survivor it's more or less game over.
Haggie is a dead killer now. I had the pleasure of facing a Hag as survivor. She could do nothing. I kept wiping traps, setting them off at the edge, waiting until she carried a survivor and ran like a maniac in her web since I knew where it was and where she was residing in. I, a singular survivor, was ruining her web constantly, while gens popped
Great stuff...
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If someone doesn't want to be in a match, they need to have an option to leave without getting banned over it. If your match is ruined because someone gave up, move on.
Giving up is part of the game mechanic. You got chased, you lost, you're hooked. If you don't want a second chance, you die and move on.
If I'm trying to give up and move on, I will be more annoyed if someone tried to save me. It's wasting my time and, from my point of view, holding the game hostage. Don't expect someone to cooperate when you forced them to stay in a match they wanted to leave.
This is what multiplayer games are. There are people who will not be having fun and will want to leave. It's not their responsibility to ensure your fun experience, nor do they owe you a fun match. You're just a random person to everyone else in the match, and they don't care about you or your feelings. They play to have fun and if they're not having fun they surrender and leave.
If that is a huge issue for you, then play killer or a co-op game.
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@Veroles said:
I would love to know how long a disarm takes.
the animation is about 3 seconds
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I don't believe Hag will be receiving any positive changes coming forward. From what I've seen, the devs don't have it as a priority to motivate players to play other killers, outside of the most powerful ones. With every update, it seems that the strongest get stronger and the weakest, weaker.
I keep hoping that other killers would be made more playable with mid-chapter updates, but that isn't happening.
I was hoping Billy would get a nice rework, so I can get to see him more, but nah. Same with Hag.
With the next mid-chapter, a lot of killers will be getting slight buffs and Hag a nerf. I've already made up my mind on not playing her. And since it seems half the play base is hellbent on playing the Resident Evil killers, I will be too. Nemesis - super easy to play as. I would say even the easiest killer in the game to learn and effective.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
Does anyone even play Hag? I haven’t seen a Hag in several months, at least
Isn't that the issue? She should be receiving changes that would motivate players to want to play as her, instead she is being made unplayable
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I can tell if a killer is on console if they're easy to 360, so maybe a disadvantage
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@HagsOnlyFans said:
As someone who mains of Flesh and Mud (Ace Visconti & The Hag)
I don't think this is the nerf everyone seems to think it is, people could already trip your traps now they just have a safer option to disable them that arguably wastes more time than it gives.
If the entire team is looking for your traps, you can now just bloodlust someone to a down
if one person is sweeping the map for traps to disable, you now basically have a passive form of regression because that person is not doing gens.
if one person dedicates themselves to following you around in chase, you can interrupt them disabling your traps by dropping chase and now there is a new vulnerable target (slow crawl to wipe away trap) the key will be identifying this early
Compare this to flashlights, where at range you could lightburn a trap with zero risk to yourself and the Hag was forced to give up one of her perk slots to run a very inoptimal perk in Franklin's Demise.
I could reliably tank 2-3 flashlights with franklins, 3 was hard and 4 was basically impossible.
Now I no longer have to dodge games just because ppl bring 4 flashlights, and I no longer have to listen to people whine about Franklin's Demise. 😌
The post explains well enough that the issue is. I'm sick of repeating myself in the comments. You can also find my opinion after trying out the PTB in the PTB feedback section if you're curious. I made a new post )
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@bowsber2010 said:
Definitely disagree with a few of your points
For starters, consider trapper for a second. Trapper's traps are:
- Easier to see than Hag's
- More lethal
- There are less of them
- They aren't automatically replenished when destroyed like Hag's are
Yet survivors still don't tend to go around finding each and every one and disarming them - they'll check important areas like shack or disarm traps they literally see him place and that's mostly it.
Realistically, survivors are only gonna specifically wipe away traps by the hook or potentially traps held at 3 gens. They aren't gonna go out of their way to find the traps - if they're intelligently placed and hidden then this will just be a massive waste of time, you're writing as if survivors know just as much about where you place your traps as you do, as if they know specifically where everything is placed, but this is not the case. Your time is obviously more valuable than theirs, but they're gonna spend much longer actually finding and disabling traps than you take to place them, and even then most of the time they'll just be better off triggering them the same way they always have.
You'll definitely have to be more wary of whether survivors see you place traps or not, but that just adds an element of counterplay to Hag (which I think she honestly needs)
I do agree that the change didn't have much thought put into it though, I definitely like some of the changes you suggested at the end of your post to make the feature more important to Hag's kit rather than something just thrown in there god knows how long after release (although making them unable to do gens definitely is not the best idea, that only incentivises 3 gen gameplay even further). It is without question a nerf and giving Hag some compensation would definitely be nice (as much as I dislike her lol)
I don't see why Trapper has any play here for comparison:
- His traps always injure survivors who step on them, or down them (add-on)
- His traps can injure survivors who disarm them (add-on)
- His traps can set themselves up (also add-on)
- He can affect the speed which it would take survivors to disarm his traps. Also by basekit, it takes longer for survivors to disarm Trapper's traps than it is for Hag's to be wiped
- He has normal killer speed
- He receives a notification that his trap has been removed
Hag has no add-ons to affect her traps being removed. She is slower. It takes 3 seconds to wipe a trap and she receives no notification.
So tell me, how is this comparison fair? Trapper's traps are more lethal than Hag's, but he can't teleport, so it's fine, right?
Hag can't either, not when a trap is wiped or triggered at the edge of the trap's trigger radius. These are 2 very easy, very abusable and strong counters to this killer and the killer can't do anything. She can do, nothing. (She has 4 other counters, but we are only talking about these 2 now)
That's the issue. Trapper has add-ons to help him, he receives notification, he has normal killer speed.
Hag has nothing. Bugs, she has that, even more bugged in the PTB. Her lunge is bugged, making her second counter even stronger. I don't know if it's a shadow nerf or a bug. Regardless, it's ridiculous.
If you've ever played with SWF as Hag, you know, they follow you around while you're chasing their friend or in general. You trap mid-chase and the survivor comes click-click, no trap, well now, it's a 3-second wipe and no trap, no notification it's removed. Survivors even at soloQ go out of their way to remove her web and waste her time.
If you think Hag needs any further counterplay, you didn't read my post.
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I'd hate to rely on teammates to heal esp as soloQ. a lot of times survivors will refuse to heal you, just cause. The eboony allowed me to heal myself without spending a gen worth of time.
Endurance and gen rushing perks will be used now or inner healing.
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@YearOfTheHag said:
I think that some people in this thread are arguing past each other. I do not see how (except if the time is really really long) you can make an argument that this change is a buff. Hag just gets more and simpler counterplay to her kit with no compensation. Good Hag players (some of whom are here in the thread) have been complaining forever that her power has a lot of counters already and have been asking for a buff to compensate and bring her in line with other killers that have a high skill in -> power out ratio.
Playing Hag is difficult and comes with disadvantages. As the game continues to develop, these seem to be growing and it makes sense that Hag mains do not love that pattern. This is not about wanting easy wins or stronger camping, as some are quick to judge. Please try to understand the arguments being laid out by people who really enjoy this killer. Hag counterplay is not mechanically demanding and required the same thinking and tactics to beat as the Hag needed to win. This change just adds some weight to an already imbalanced scale.
Serious props to Foodie for sticking with the thread, updating it, and arguing for all of us muddy lady enjoyers.
Thank you! It's always nice to hear from a fellow Hagger!
Unfortunately, I don't think the post will make any difference, but at least I will know I tried to fight for this killer.
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@Slade_1807 said:
I also main Hag when I play killer. Honestly I am really excited for this change.
Yes, survivors can now remove Hag traps without a flashlight, but it will take longer and they will need to spot the trap first, crouch over and then wipe it away. I think this gives some scope for sneaky plays, leaving a trap out in the open as bait with another trap hidden nearby once their defences are lowered. Flashlights were so crazy overpowered against her, especially when combined with battery add-ons, or even worse, Built To Last. At least now, you don't have to hear half your web disappear faster than you placed half of them.
I think if more people give Hag some attention and love post update, then the devs might join in that too. They did say that changes coming this update to killers aren't the only ones planned, and these are just tweaks as opposed to the full updates to come for them. Removing the flashlight feature seems to be to be a pretty bug indicator that they are planning to mix things up for Hag, and hopefully give her a bit of a buff. Even if we have to sacrifice not being able to place traps in a certain radius of a hook. I'd happily sacrifice that ability for a decent movement speed, honestly.
I don't think that this will be a big nerf for Hag, but is a small buff that could lead to big, welcome changes for this neglected killer.
"Several seconds" would not give Hag extra time. It will waste her time, since she will need to replace traps that were removed without any sort of consequence to the survivors. The consequences are for Hag only - she can't go back to her removed trap quickly enough, she can't punish survivors for removing her trap, she needs to take time to replace her trap, etc. Hag will end up wasting more time, therefore making gen rushing an even bigger issue for her.
Hag neither has the time nor enough traps to put "bait" traps which would be completely useless. How would putting a "bait" trap with the sole purpose of it to be removed by survivors a good strategy? As a Hag main, you should already know, you need to be using all of your traps. You don't have traps to spare for the sole purpose of them being "bait"
With flashlights, you can bring Franklin's and done, you have a counter. You don't have to think about them anymore. You slap em, you trap the flashlight, you stop thinking about it.
One problem removed and a bigger one created.
Most other killers that are being changed in the mid-chapter are receiving buffs. Hag is one of the killers getting nerfed. So what? We need to pray that the devs don't butcher her any further and maybe give her a buff in the coming years?
I will not be playing her if she receives no compensation. I already started playing Nemesis since I already face him every other survivor game. And guess what? He is super easy to play as.
Why would I be sweating trying to make a killer with 6 counters to her power work? Sacrificing my game style to camp hooks or camp gens? I don't want to be doing that, and seeing how it may be needed after such a change, I would rather move to another killer.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384053#Comment_3384053
Like I said apologies for treading old ground
I mean I don't disagree that playing Hag both right now and potentially in the future may still be pretty rough with the nerf. She is def getting to the level of killers like Myers who are just really outdated. That being said I think this nerf is a step in the right direction in bringing her in line with the rest of the cast
Also I agree with you, current hag's power is counterable, it totally is.
My point is that with this kind of change, she is also getting compensated with a buff, so we don't have to see her drown and become less playable than the Twins. That's where she is headed
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384051#Comment_3384051
The ptb hasn't even gone live for you to have given the changes a try and acting like these changes are going to completely break hag has no merit. It's clear you have no intention of being reasonable so I'm not going to engage any further.
I main this killer, so I consider myself well qualified to know what changes are going to hurt her and what won't. Other hag mains here have also agreed, or are they unreasonable too?
I will try the PTB when it comes out tomorrow and I will record the issues I mentioned will happen with this change.
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@Brokenbones said:
I haven't read the whole thing so I'm sorry if I'm treading old ground here but I think a small Hag nerf to give her power more general counterplay is fine considering she's about to also bask in the glory of extended heals, weaker DH and her biggest counters being completely reworked
Ever since Circle of Healing came out, Hag has been in a rough spot since that perk is the most anti-hag perk there is pretty much. It'll still be good against her, but now survivors can't shrug off injuries from a Hag too quickly like they can currently. Hag relies on keeping people injured to do well.
I explained more in the comments but I realize the post doesn't include half of the explanation the comments have, so I'm considering editing the post with the most updated information. I also keep repeating myself at this point and I can't expect people to read 40+ comments
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384028#Comment_3384028
The devs are slow, but they do eventually get around to making adjustments to things that need it. While I get this might not be ideal for hag players, we don't actually know how well hag will perform with these changes since the ptb is also coming with healing nerfs. It's possible this change ends up being power neutral or even a net buff, because of other changes coming.
If hag was the only thing getting changed, then compensation buffs would be warranted, but it's not.
So instead of getting the correct and best changes we can for our main killer, we need to just accept the facts and hope the devs don't take 5 years to update the killer again. If we can get the changes the killer needs now, why shouldn't we? Why would we need to have the killer broken for months or years instead of the change being done right from the get go?
The healing changes are for every killer's benefit, except that Hag is accompanied by a nerf to her counterable power.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369045/hag-nerf
-"she is receiving a massive nerf, thanks to Otzdarva, who made this change suggestion a few months ago in a video."
I have posts on the steam forum dating back to 2017 saying you should be able to scratch out her traps. I have been posting this suggestion a very long time.
Imagine playing against trapper but you cant disarm his traps without using charges from a toolkit or having the sabotage perk. That sounds ridiculous right? That's because it is. Hag has been ridiculous for ~5 years.
Even though she was weak she needed a mechanic that introduced : Fair Play.
-"Survivors have plenty of ways to avoid and remove her traps without taking a hit. You can crouch to avoid or run around the radius of the trap, so you don't trigger it. You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you."
This is propaganda and let's talk about each.
- Unlike Trapper you can trap the hell out of hooks. Trapper lost this ability because it was "cheap". You trap a hook and if they run you teleport and if you dont you walk over and smack them. This is a "catch 22" scenario where either way the survivor loses.
- You cannot avoid the traps because unlike beartraps they are flat and cannot be seen from a distance. You do not have time to duck walk around the map. It is not realistic to use Urban Evasion (ever) because that perk keeps you from learning how to stealth and instead you use that perk to fake knowing how to stealth.
- -"You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you." This is a true sentence if you are someone who has had hundreds of hours of playtime against hag or you are a Hag main. Otherwise 99% of people can't do this. This is a "comp level play" skill that most people do not have.
- The reality is only a flashlight or "armed" exhaustion movement perk like Sprint Burst gives most people the ability to trigger traps safely.
- Hag is one of the most annoying killers to play against because she rips control of your camera away. This is really unfun. Even if you know a trap is there you are forced to have your camera yanked toward the trap and there is nothing that can be done to prevent that.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383839#Comment_3383839
Hag is supposed to be a hit and run Killer. She will be better after the changes. She will lose her "catch 22" power set and this is 100% fine.
I mentioned Otz because he made a video with the exact suggestion that is getting implemented a few months ago. You might have suggested something similar on Steam, but I'm sure more people have seen the video that has been up for a few months than your 6-year-old post. I also heard other content creators suggesting this to the devs. The difference in Otz suggestion is that he also wanted Hag to have normal killer speed. This is not something included in the mid-chapter so far.
Now, about your points:
- Hag players, excluding the ones doing their occasional Hag daily challenge, put either 0 traps at hooks or 1 trap. They can put 10 traps, but they don't, because it's not helpful. Don't compare Trapper here, because unlike Hag, his traps need to be disarmed in order to walk over them. He can block off all paths to a hooked survivor, and Hag can't. The simple thing is, you can walk over the trap without triggering it. You don't become injured, you're not stuck without being able to move.
- You have a 3rd person view, you can use it to see the traps away from the trigger range. Move your mouse and look around, run places where it's unlikely to have a trap. You don't have to crouch the entire match and if you are, you don't understand how her power works. It's easy to notice where her web is, so you know you don't even need to pay any sort of attention to the floor when you're away from her web. Fact is, you need to think logically and strategically when versing this killer, but it's not complicated, I promise.
- Your point is incorrect. A player with 30 hours is able to do this successfully. It's not complicated nor hard to achieve.
- Not going to comment on it, she has 5 ways to avoid/remove her traps. 6 if you want to count flashies.
- You trigger a trap and a scary skinny lady pops up, screaming at your character. The camera flip is your character reacting to that. It is actually realistic.
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@Marc_123 said:
Maybe people should wait till the PTB is out and the changes are tested.
I don´t understand that as a nerf.
You have to crouch over the trap to not set it off and then disarm a few seconds (?). This takes time. How long we will see.
In most matches decent survs will run in all your traps when you are in chase or carry someone anyway.
Only the fast flashlight removal is gone.
She has 5 ways to counter/avoid her power without counting flashlights. This will be yet another way to destroy her power. Do you know of any other killer with 6 counters?
People have been asking for buffs, not a nerf. She gains no benefit from this kind of change.
The change will affect how well some perks work on her, it will affect the time she needs to trap and retrap negatively, it will make it harder to keep an eye on gens, it can be abused while she is busy. She is slow and even if she gets a notification that a trap is removed, what can she do?
This is a change that will only benefit survivors, allow them to destroy a killer's power without any consequence. The other counters may at least pose some sort of risk to such actions, and only some of them. She has counters that post no threat or consequence already.
When you destroy traps during chases right now, you risk the Hag teleporting and hitting you. She may not teleport, but maybe she will. It's a risk. Where is the risk with the new change? Survivors can crouch over her traps while she is chasing and what will she do? She will need to waste time retrapping while survivors do gens.
With flashlights, at least you can bring Franklin's as a counter. What can you do in this situation? Nothing.
She isn't getting any changes to help her. She is still slow, she is not getting any new add-ons. Devs are fixing one problem, while creating a bigger one
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379576#Comment_3379576
I really doubt Hag of all killers is going to need any further buff with healing being nerfed.
If I understand correctly, strong healing items as well as CoH is what hurts Hag the most currently.
No, or at least not for me. CoH gave me time. Having CoH means survivors are more likely to run to the boon and heal, instead of rushing gens which only benefits me.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379651#Comment_3379651
So you never set up a web around a 3-4 gen high traffic area? Do you just chase people and place a trap at a loop?
I'm not sure how healing didn't affect you on hag unless you played like the ladder.
I only trap gen areas if the survivors 3 gen themselves. I don't 3 gen them or work towards that goal. I trap pallets, windows and places survivors pass through during a chase - passage ways, doors, common paths
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@Xernoton said:
I'm not sure how significant this change will be. Depending on how long it takes for a survivor to even remove one trap this might be a slight buff. I'm not a Hag main, so take this with a grain of salt but I don't think this will be a horrible nerf.
It won't be more than 2-5 seconds, which is not much different from using flashies. I mean with the difference that instead of 1-2 people being able to do that for a limited amount of time, now everyone will be able to do it at all times.
This change will also affect how well some perks work on her. Some may not work well on her at all anymore, making the available perks even less for her
I don't see any benefit from this change, that's why I refer to it as a nerf.
Even the lack of need for Franklin's is not good enough since other perks will be less effective.
Optimally, I would like to not see this change go through or if it does, I would like to see it accompanied with a buff.
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@Snowflake_Syndrome said:
I wouldn't worry about it almost nobody plays Hag, hell she's not even discussed much.
She has a lot of misconceptions and is hated by a lot of people that don't quite understand how she works. Just because she is not played doesn't mean she deserves to be ignored and nerfed. In fact, the devs need to work on changing her in a way that would make her more appealing, so more players player her and we can finally get some variety
It's more annoying facing the same killers over and over. I want to see the rare killers be played more
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381257#Comment_3381257
The entire thing depends on the time you need to remove a trap. The devs notes say several seconds and its impossible mid-chase. So it shouldnt be that short, but we need to wait for the ptb.
And healing was always a problem. Maybe not for you bc you dont play a territorial killer territorial. But if i have a web and a survivor gets hit and he gets out of the web, i need enough time to repair it, so healing time matters. With the current boon, healing is so easy and fast and as hag i cant go to the other side of the map. Every web which is bigger than half the map has too many holes.
The dead hard nerf is great bc now i can teleport and swing immediately. The other exhaustion perks are not that strong when the camera-flick lets survivor run into a wall.
And with the medkit and flashlight nerf franklins isnt mandatory anymore, even if the items were good bait.
And just bc im sick of hearing it: playing territorial doesnt mean placing 10 traps around the hook like every noob hag. I have 3k hours, play since 2018 and hag was my second main.
It's absolutely not going to be as long as Demo and even the long time it takes for Demo's to be destroyed, it still doesn't benefit him.
Survivors will be able to remove her traps at any time, including during chases. While she is chasing someone, the others can remove known traps. She cant counter that or do anything about it. After, she will waste time retrapping instead of defending gens or chasing someone else.
This is actually going to motivate camping as a tactic for success, which will give hag an even worse reputation. She is often deemed as a campy killer.
My hag games strongly evolve around chases and hook swaps since that works good, but I also do builds revolving around keeping an eye on gens - not 3 gens, all gens.
With the new healing changes, survivors won't be healing, but rushing gens even more while injured. Circle of healing motivated survivors to heal instead of gen rush, so it gives me time that I need as killer. I don't mind survivors healing, I mind them not healing and rushing gens.
And as I think I mentioned, I would rather bring Franklins and keep an eye on the 1-2 survivors bringing flashies than 4 survivors ruining my web with 0 consequence of their actions and without me having anything at my disposal to help that situation
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379570#Comment_3379570
Not only that, but it could be a buff depending on numbers.
I think the post and its 30+ comments explain well enough why and how this change can never be considered a buff to the killer. A buff for survivors, sure, but not for Hag.
Hag receives not attention from the devs. If they go through with this change, they won't buff her for another few years. Maybe until the devs play in a live stream with Hag and realize she needs a buff.
If you don't know the history, Matthew Cote got destroyed in a Hag match against survivors and Hag got buffed shortly after. The community had been begging for buffs, and they only received them after Cote got bullied in a match with her. That was the last time she received a change, 2018.
That's why I'm protesting right now. Because I see how this change will affect the killer without her receiving any compensation.
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@hatchetChugger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369045/hag-nerf
good, maybe people will play fun killers such as literally anyone else
Very constructive and useful comment )
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@Pulsar said:
I suggest they add me as a Survivor.
I will be very tall but I will not take up much of your screen (please pick me, my perks are bad and I will have no cosmetics)
My biggest regret is not getting Shteben a nice outfit
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@drsoontm said:
I must be missing something.
Flashlights have always been a pain in the backside for Hag players. Now it will be slightly slower/more work to remove a trap.
I agree traps should not be removable by a flashlight but how is that a nerf?
I think I mentioned all reasons in the main post, but also in the comments.
This can be abused heavily since it provides 0 punishment to survivors. Hag can't do anything about this and given that there are 5 other methods to removing/avoiding her traps, this is a huge nerf.
She is not getting any buffs for this change, but I explain this in more details above
A balance change would be if she is getting something back, but she isn't. She will now have to worry about 4 survivors ruining her power without consequence, instead of 1-2 or even 3 survivors with flashlights. At least I could bring Franklin's and now what can I bring to help me? Nothing, so it's a nerf
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@AverageKateMain said:
But Hag isn't getting nerfed at all. Her biggest weakness was CoH constant healing and Flashlights. Both of those aren't going to be a problem and she has a counter outside of crouching everywhere.
She was only rough because of how easy healing is against her
Instead of fearing the 1-2 survivors with flashlights destroying your traps without consequence, you now need to worry about 4 survivors doing the same thing. And can you imagine a SWF working together to destroy her power?
Imagine you as a Hag spend 2 gens worth of time setting up your web and suddenly 4 traps disappear without you being able to counter it as a killer. Imagine the traps are fairly away from each other. What if the survivor group plan on destroying her web with the new method while she is in a chase with another survivor? What can she do in that situation? Nothing. Her web will be gone, survivors will only benefit from it and do gens while she works on retrapping.
She is slow, she won't be able to get to the place her trap was at on time even if she tried. The survivors would have moved to another location and Hag will need to replace traps instead of chasing survivors or protecting gens. How is that better?
I would rather have to worry about 1-2 flashlight survivors and bring Franklin's than fear 4 survivors working together destroying my web all the time.
She needs a buff with this kind of change.
This change has been thought only through the survivor perspective and not from the killer's perspective. Too much fear to not make Hag too oppressive and now she will be the oppressed one.
0 thought has been put into how this change can be abused by survivors to literally destroy this killer.
It was also obvious to me that the devs don't know of all the methods survivors currently have at their disposal to counter Hag.
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@Phasmamain said:
The healing nerfs are more than enough for hag to be in a better position. Sure traps will be easier to get rid of but survivors will spend much longer having to reset giving you plenty of time to replenish your web
Healing has never been an issue for Hag and the healing nurf is not going to change anything for the better. Instead of survivors healing, they will just be rushing gens injured with adrenaline ready, inevitably making it harder for Hags who already struggle with gen rushing more than most killers.
This change will be more beneficial for other killers maybe, but not Hag. She has 5 counters to her power as it is right now. Devs will be adding a 6th counter that will only damage her. Tell me what other killer has 5 counters to their power, let alone 6? I'm not counting flashlights in the 5 counters
She won't be able to do anything about her traps getting constantly destroyed by 4 survivors. She is slow, and she won't be able to get to the destroyed trap's location in time, she will need to constantly retrap and lose all time.
Her biggest issues are the trap setting time, given her slow movement speed. She needs a lot of time to set up her web, and constantly retrap, leaving survivors to do, gens.
This is an extremely oppressive change to a killer that already is in need of a buff.
As it stands, Hag is only viable at the hands of an experienced Hag and even they struggle. Imagine new players trying out this killer.
Devs are not working to motivate their player base to play this killer, learn how she works and have fun with her. I'm sick and tired of facing the same killers over and over, and Hag will become even rarer to face with this kind of change.
I would not mind such a change if some of her other counters were removed, or if she received a buff to compliment her and help her more with gens.
I'm considering making a video showing off her counters, especially one that is already very oppressive and abusable even during chases.
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@Michi said:
I have to say I am extremely disappointed.
Hag is already one of (if not the) killer with the most counters and now we just got another very generic one.
There are already countless flaws with her and her power: While she has to set up very slowly 2-3 gens are usually done before she is able to start the game while other killers can happily apply pressure right at the start.
Additionally we have killers like blight, huntress etc which get chance after chance when messing up. Hatchet did not hit the surv? Throw again. And again. And again. What happens if Hag teleports and doesn't hit the surv? All set up time wasted and even if you retrap immediately the surv is long gone and even if not its very difficult to get a hit on that surv with this trap.
And the worst thing: she is a killer that suffers heavily frm getting called out by voice coms. Almost all other killer do not get their powers denied just because of voice coms. You cannot say: ,, Nemesis will use whip" and suddenly he is less effective.
Hag got also no real compensation since the healing nerf affects all killers, especially the strong ones.
I also tried for as long as I can remember to stop people from overtrapping gens and hooks. Guess what? Now the most effective method will be to double and triple trap hooks and gens.. and I guess this will get her nerfed even more..
Hag needs big compensations. She needs better speed, a way to quickly set up to play the game relatively early (like other killers) and she needs a way to easily hit a surv after they trigger a trap. Nowadays survs just trigger traps from the edge and are perfectly safe.
I would like to see Hag get a buff to her lunge distance coming out of a teleport so that traps that are set off while the Hag is able to teleport to them quickly enough could always result in a hit (with exceptions: vaults/pallets and haste effects). With the addition of a new counter to her power, this change would buff her chase game and further incentivize the removal of her traps when it is safe.
Hag players are already a very rare species and after that her playerbase will drop even more. And I really want to see her more and make other people play her and have fun. We need more killer diversity, not less.
Well said, this change will be very oppressive for the killer and make it even easier to counter her already very counterable power. She needs a buff
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I hope the devs reconsider this mistake of a change, or at the very least add a buff to Hag. At this point, base killer speed would not be overpowered on her and make her trap set up time a bit quicker.
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@Blueberry said:
Pretty rough nerf on Hag who needed a buff. Hopefully this means she's got buffs coming in the future.
Ideally, a buff will be given before this change reaches the Live version of the game
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@Krazzik said:
It's a healthy change. A killer shouldn't be massively weaker just because someone brought a particular item into the game. Hag NEEDED Franklin's if she even smelt a flashlight because it countered her so hard. Likewise NOT having anyone with a flashlight made Hag much, much stronger and meant it was much harder for survivors to do anything against her.
This way they got rid of her massive weakness, while giving all survivors a less efficient way of getting rid of traps.
Overall it probably will be quite a big nerf to her and I do hope they give her some buffs down the road after collecting data from this change, but it's much healthier.
Also as mentioned, huge healing nerfs will mean hit-and-run killers like Hag are much stronger.
Instead of being weaker due to an item, she will be weaker by basekit without anything to compensate. The issue is that the devs are going through this change without giving a buff to the killer. I'm not talking a crazy buff, but she needs something.
And again, I've never had issues with healing, so all these changes are not going to affect me as Hag but affect me as a survivor. I'm mad about my Eboony, but that's a different subject.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379576#Comment_3379576
The flashlight interaction changes are a blanket change for multiple killers to make it so flashlights don't serve as any direct counters to any specific killer. It would be different if the flashlight changes were solely for Hag.
Yes, but no other killer received a nerf to the removal of the flashlight effect. Did Wraith, Nurse, the Artist receive a debuff from the change? They didn't, only Hag did, so for them this is a solid buff
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@Sava18 said:
I was a hag main in the past. I don't know how you call this a nerf. The entire healing meta is being nerfed, which is the only reason she fell from an S tier killer and nothing else. A flashlight countering a killer was always bad by design and hags issue is that she easily stomps majority of the player base, so adding in that extra trap counter play is good.
I don't care about healing and it has never affected me in my Hag games. I would be ok with this change, if Hag received compensation for it - a speed buff, an add-on change to compliment the trap nerf, so it doesn't feel so bad from the killer's perspective
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@Header said:
good survivors can already disarm traps, so giving everyone the ability to disarm a trap slower than what good survivors can already do shouldnt be a big deal
It's a big deal because she is slow and will need to constantly retrap. Her biggest issues are still present and even more with this change. She is not able to keep an eye on gens effectively like other killers. 2-3 gens are done by the time she places her initial traps, she then needs to constantly retrap.
There are games where I don't kick a single gen because I don't have enough time to go to any gen to kick it
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
She needed a way to safely remove her traps without flashlights that didn’t involve waiting for someone to be downed and then running over them all while she was carrying a survivor. Flashlights were too oppressive against her but there was often little that could be done without them. It was like night and day.
If Hag ends up needing additional buffs to offset this, that’s fine. But she will be much more bearable to face now and it makes traps near hooks less powerful, which is good.
I think I mentioned this. If such a nerf is to be made, I want to see compensation, but I don't see one, so it's only a nerf to me.
Hag games without flashlights don't feel oppressive currently, and I'm saying this as someone who mains survivor. Hag is the only killer I play, so maybe that's why I don't see her as oppressive to face without a flashlight.
So if it's fine now to face her without a flash, why would it be different after the update?
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@BlueRose said:
I want to point out that one of the major reason hag has been in a rough spot was because how easy healing was. Now healing being nerfed into the ground I believe hag and waith are going to be a lot stronger. Even otz said that one of the major reasons hag moved down his tier list in past year or so was because how strong healing was with CoH and strong medkits. Also I think it's fair to allow everyone a way to disarm a trap without having to have a item to do so. I still think her traps will be just as good since they are hard to see on most maps, not like trapper's bear traps.
Healing has never been an issue for me as a Hag main. In fact, I see most survivors jumping on gens as fast as possible, even while injured. The issue is how much time she needs to spend trapping and retrapping. She doesn't have high mobility, it takes her longer to move around and trap. She is not good at keeping an eye on gens and making sure survivors stay off them. Unless you 3 gen, of course, but that's not my gameplay and not what I want to be stuck doing. In fact, it's an issue if you feel that you need to camp 3 gens.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
Otz is huge fan of Hag, one of his favorite Killers. I think this change is good for both parties.
Going against a Hag without Urban Evasion and/or Flashlights is frustrating as all get out. Now Survivors have a legit way to remove traps at the cost of gen time.
Likewise, Hag doesn’t have to worry about one flashlighter turning her into a slow M1 Killer and she can be played without Franklin’s as a necessity.
Otz is a fan of Hag, but he doesn't main her and he doesn't know the point of view that Hag mains have over this killer.
This change doesn't benefit Hag. It only hinders her, and saying survivors are going to waste time removing her traps is not good enough. Look at Demogorgon? Do you think it benefits him that survivors waste time removing his teleport? No, it doesn't make much or even any impact, and I'm sure the "delay" it will take to remove a trap is not going to be as severe as it is on Demo.
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@Crowman said:
Making Hag not hard countered by an item that survivors may not have and giving survivors a basekit way to remove the traps means that it's easier to buff Hag in the future.
But she is not getting any buff right now, is she?
And knowing that her last change was in 2018, are we going to wait 5 years for her buff?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378101#Comment_3378101
If this is happening to you PLEASE send us your log files to Support - or dm me them here.
As you can see from the tweet, we're not writing this off but we're asking for information from our players who say they've been affected, we can see from the log files that we're given what happened.
Log files are also encrypted so there's no problem in posting them here.
The main log won't be helpful, since I did a trial match after flushing my DNS and changing my Steam Networking settings. Would the backup files work? I see 2 last updated around the time of the crashes. I might also be able to get the logs of the other player
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@ImprobableCarny said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378101#Comment_3378101
I'm not an expert but this seems like a weird response from your ISP. If you were getting DDOS'd they should be able to see that and tell you. Definitely call them again, and update us if you want to. Specifically tell them you are worried that you are being targeted by DDOS attacks. Write down what info they give you so you can relay it to BHVR in a proper report.
The thing with these issues is that there are so many variables and as much detail you can give, the better. A lot of people who had the crash problem probably just went to them like "OMG MY GAME CRASH IS IT DDOS???" with little other information and that's kind of skewed what they have to work with.
I'm not a developer/IT guy but I've had to do internal management during outages, site problems, etc. and in those situations the majority of the reports we get really do amount to "THE THING ISNT WORKING HELP!!!" which, unfortunately, isn't very helpful. I wish we all had a giant "fix the problem" button, but alas.
I know it's an attack because I never have internet issues - no fluctuations, no minor disconnects, no high ping or packet loss. I've made personal settings let's say to make sure my connection is at its optimal. My connection is stable. The same thing affected many others with different ISP, different regions. I also noted that my PC always showed having internet. It happened fast, but progressively towards the full crash. I saw my internet speed going down and fluctuating by 100 mb like how it happens when you're downloading something, except I wasn't downloading anything. Pages half opened, my Wi-Fi was still active and then it crashed for 10 min and came back again.
Interestingly enough, I turned off steam networking after the second crash and did a trial game. 2 of my teammates crashed and I do believe they did, since they had no reason to DC, but I didn't that time. So maybe it comes from Steam and maybe that helps, who knows. I'm not at IT either
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378091#Comment_3378091
Because that might have been the reason behind *some* of the disconnection issues. In their investigation they very well might have found a glitch that has been kicking people from their games. This does *not* mean people aren't being DDOSed. I think it's pretty clear people are being DDOSed. Anyone with half a brain cell can see it's happening.
But again, if they can't find evidence of a leak on their end then they can't go making any sort of claim. They're not going to say anything that risks any sort of lawsuit dropping on their heads.
I do believe it's a targeted attack since it seems a little too weird how it started happening again and to random players after their tweet. Some unofficial websites show crash reports of the game around the same time, conveniently in the middle of the night for EU players and during the day for US players
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@ImprobableCarny said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378084#Comment_3378084
You say this started happening today. You've had your internet connection knocked out multiple times in one day? Have you reported this to your ISP and gotten their confirmation that it was an attack? Do you have Steam Networking on? Have you clicked any weird links lately? There are so many ways your IP could have leaked and it's important that all avenues are properly acknowledged and investigated because otherwise people get whipped into a panic like this. It's understandable to be freaked out, and nobody's berating y'all for that. The issue is that there's too many unknowns for anyone to be able to "confirm" anything.
I called my ISP while it was happening. Each time lasted 10 min. 10 min of having 0 connection to having some connection but then crashing again. I was in SWF and I wasn't the only one whose internet crashed. My ISP said it's not on their end. It was at 1 am, the late shifters are not exactly specialists, and I will need to call tomorrow again.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378082#Comment_3378082
But if the leak is not through DBD, and its through Steam as others have put forth, then they can't make that sort of claim or acknowledgement. Because they don't know. They can't go pointing the finger at other companies, it'll get them in trouble. They're saying everything is clear on their end.
They can acknowledge people are getting DDOSed without pointing out sources. They way they said it sounds like "some players' game crashed, it's fixed now". And yes they did have an issue, but it was a server issue again - random "disconnected from the host" during matches. It's unrelated to the complaints.
My game didn't crash. I didn't just get disconnected from the match, my internet crashed.
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@ImprobableCarny said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378076#Comment_3378076
Sorry, what part of the tweet says "there were no DDOS attacks after all, it was all a bug that caused crashes"? No part, because that's not what it's saying.
What Grum said above. Not only is the situation not improved at all, it's worse. I understood that this affected only content creators, but I'm not a content creator, neither are the players I play with or the groups I was able to chat with. And the issue started happening today
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@ImprobableCarny said:
I'm not giving them "the benefit of the doubt" I just have the ability to actually read a tweet. The DBD playerbase is really good at being loud and mad and very bad at being productive or thinking things through. In no other world is a company saying "We fixed an issue that was causing crashes, we can't find any IP leaks, but we are still monitoring the situation" the horrible insult that people are making it out to be.
It is though. I got DDOSed twice today. I didn't get DDOSed in the initial wave that hit a lot of content creators, but it happened to me 2 hrs ago. It has also been happening to other players. I talked with some SWF groups that complained some of their group members have been getting DDOSed today.
And I do find it interesting how these "crashes" started happening again and so severely hours after DBD's tweet
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they obviously haven't fixed it since I got DDOS-ed TWICE while playing their game a few minutes ago
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Wait... sir, you telling me someone with that build would potentially be faster than some killers, yikes
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Sitting on gens is boring enough as it is. We need more objectives to slow games down
Even mini-games while doing gens would be more fun or having to find gen parts to complete generators or finding a manual